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The entire Gathering Storm story line and everything that followed it.

Plenty of night lords did 'fall'

But then there are tons of guys from the other tractor legions who were never interested in chaos at all.

Bit of a topic switch here but related... I just finished buried dagger. What a great book.. Finally a primarch portrayed in a more realistic manner... I just wonder what they will write about in his primarch novel as this book covered his origin backstory fully.

Hellebore wrote:
To continue on this theme, the idea that being bad means you are chaos needs to go.

There's skinning people for fun and there's doing it for chaos. They are distinct. The Nightlords are as connected to chaos as the blood angels are. Which is, in a metaphysical sense true of all existence.


Chaos is a background radiation to all existence no matter how virtuous. but falling to chaos is a far more deliberate thing

Yes! Falling to chaos means worshipping chaos not "doing bad things". If that's the only criteria then most factions in 40k have "fallen " to chaos.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I liked the konrad curze novel. I think it showed him in an interesting light.

Spoiler:

basically, his prison coffin that sangy threw into space is picked up by a salvage ship. he commandeers the ship to tsagualsa to reunite the night lords. told simultaneously with depictions of him talking to an effigy of the emperor that hes stitched together from corpses.

it was pretty good I thought.

not sure why that relates one way or another to immortal chars.

The Asuryani want to restore the Aeldari Empire. This makes no sense whatsoever. The Asuryani were the ones that abandoned the Empire - they were renegades and deserters. It is the Drukhari who are the descendants of the old Aeldari Empire. If the Aeldari Empire is restored, Commorragh would 100% be its capital.

This is part of the very old lore back in the days where the Eldar's (then Aeldar) lore wasn't very fleshed out yet and the Dark Eldar (then Druikhari) were still considered a minor race. The new lore confirms the Druikhari to be a major power with a population roughly the size of the Asuryani. So why aren't the Drukhari launching a crusade to reclaim the galaxy and enslave everyone?

It is bs to the extreme and used by utterly incompetent writers to justify Aeldari fighting the Imperium for territorial reasons rather than actual threats like Orks, Tyranids, Chaos or Necron.

Another thing I want off the lore is M'kar's encounter with Draigo and Memphisto. This really undermines the showdown between him and Calgar when you realize some other dudes had kicked his sorry ass before.

I think that Eldar are more of minor, major threat. They do not have strength to fight against Imperium at large, but they can dominate minor conflicts. Imagine real life Vietnam. USA is a lot bigger than you, but it has to send its troops across entire world to fight in unfavorable conditions. Eldars might be small, but they can focus everything they got into a war they are fighting and thus, they bring more stuff than Imperium can as it is too spread out.

As for Chaos question. A lot of legions and people do not worship Chaos. Did you ever heard of Furies? Here is another legion who despises Chaos, Iron Warriors. They fight as extreme professionals. Never throwing their lives away for nothing. They possess extreme combat discipline rivaling and surpassing some Space Marine chapters. They specialize in logistics, organization and supply in order to wage siege warfare or to construct massive fortresses.

The thing is, most people understand Chaos as "I'm spikey and evil now" instead of treating Chaos for what it really is. A pure expression of humanity. Seeking perfection is not a Chaotic trait. Every human had sought and wants perfection. Did you saw those "oddly satisfying" videos on facebook or youtube where machine does something perfectly? Did you ever felt compulsion to have your room perfectly clean? To make perfect present, cook perfect meal for yourself? THAT is Chaos. To deny Chaos is to deny reality and yourself.

In terms of recent fluff, the Ophelia system being utterly conquered by a lord of change, until rescued by passing Guilliman.

A.T. wrote:
In terms of recent fluff, the Ophelia system being utterly conquered by a lord of change, until rescued by passing Guilliman.

Utterly conquered is a bit of an exaggeration. the new SOB novel details it a bit

BrianDavion wrote:
Utterly conquered is a bit of an exaggeration. the new SOB novel details it a bit

I've not seen the new book. Are they rolling back on the "...entire population of Ophelia was freed from the enslavement of the Tyrant of Blueflame..." line from the Marine codex?

bibotot wrote:
The Asuryani want to restore the Aeldari Empire. This makes no sense whatsoever. The Asuryani were the ones that abandoned the Empire - they were renegades and deserters. It is the Drukhari who are the descendants of the old Aeldari Empire. If the Aeldari Empire is restored, Commorragh would 100% be its capital.

This is part of the very old lore back in the days where the Eldar's (then Aeldar) lore wasn't very fleshed out yet and the Dark Eldar (then Druikhari) were still considered a minor race. The new lore confirms the Druikhari to be a major power with a population roughly the size of the Asuryani. So why aren't the Drukhari launching a crusade to reclaim the galaxy and enslave everyone?

It is bs to the extreme and used by utterly incompetent writers to justify Aeldari fighting the Imperium for territorial reasons rather than actual threats like Orks, Tyranids, Chaos or Necron.

Another thing I want off the lore is M'kar's encounter with Draigo and Memphisto. This really undermines the showdown between him and Calgar when you realize some other dudes had kicked his sorry ass before.

DE are what the Aeldari empire was at its worse during the decline (and the fall) and not what it was during its peak . They were not savagely murder humping eachother to death from day one lol.. They were too busy helping in the fight aginst the necrons/ctan and meant they had to constantly strive also culling orcs and saving the gaalxy in the name of the old ones was the objective... The drive was to have mastery over matter and reach "enlightement". They did... It was only once they acievd mastery, and then there was nothing to oppose them that they fell into decay and depravity and murder humping themselves to detah... Tehy didnt achieve the empire through that but rather lost the empire due to that. And it was a gradual process over millions of years.

The CWE in the current time line have somehow re-gressed into levels of power far below their peak. For reasons.. Apparently they all forgot how to build this super awesome tech that can snuff out stars at the click of a finger..

A.T. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Utterly conquered is a bit of an exaggeration. the new SOB novel details it a bit

I've not seen the new book. Are they rolling back on the "...entire population of Ophelia was freed from the enslavement of the Tyrant of Blueflame..." line from the Marine codex?

well for one thing it wasn't just the space Marines, it was the indomatus crusade, including pretty much every sister of battle that could be spared.

seriously, people need to stop reading "indomatus crusade" as "Gulliman and a handful of blue primaris marines"

for another thing, the sisters of battle on the planet where fighting the deamons during the entire time. It's just was was a losing battle because there where so many deamons.

 Argive wrote:

bibotot wrote:
The Asuryani want to restore the Aeldari Empire. This makes no sense whatsoever. The Asuryani were the ones that abandoned the Empire - they were renegades and deserters. It is the Drukhari who are the descendants of the old Aeldari Empire. If the Aeldari Empire is restored, Commorragh would 100% be its capital.

This is part of the very old lore back in the days where the Eldar's (then Aeldar) lore wasn't very fleshed out yet and the Dark Eldar (then Druikhari) were still considered a minor race. The new lore confirms the Druikhari to be a major power with a population roughly the size of the Asuryani. So why aren't the Drukhari launching a crusade to reclaim the galaxy and enslave everyone?

It is bs to the extreme and used by utterly incompetent writers to justify Aeldari fighting the Imperium for territorial reasons rather than actual threats like Orks, Tyranids, Chaos or Necron.

Another thing I want off the lore is M'kar's encounter with Draigo and Memphisto. This really undermines the showdown between him and Calgar when you realize some other dudes had kicked his sorry ass before.

DE are what the Aeldari empire was at its worse during the decline (and the fall) and not what it was during its peak . They were not savagely murder humping eachother to death from day one lol.. They were too busy helping in the fight aginst the necrons/ctan and meant they had to constantly strive also culling orcs and saving the gaalxy in the name of the old ones was the objective... The drive was to have mastery over matter and reach "enlightement". They did... It was only once they acievd mastery, and then there was nothing to oppose them that they fell into decay and depravity and murder humping themselves to detah... Tehy didnt achieve the empire through that but rather lost the empire due to that. And it was a gradual process over millions of years.

The CWE in the current time line have somehow re-gressed into levels of power far below their peak. For reasons.. Apparently they all forgot how to build this super awesome tech that can snuff out stars at the click of a finger..

The Craftworld Eldar are the post-apocalyptic descendants of those uncorrupted Eldar that fled the empire like Numenoreans fleeing Numenor or Atlanteans fleeing Atlantis. They did not necessarily have the best and brightest of society with them. The superweapons could have required esoteric knowledge from a range of specialist fields, rendering them impossible to replicate.

Think of it this way: If society collapsed and you managed to flee on board a ship with a band of other survivors, why can't you build a nuclear missile? Same reason. The band of survivors is not likely to contain all the necessary knowledge let alone have the tools or infrastructure to build it.

Even if by some chance there was a nuclear weapons physicist in the band of survivors, chances are their time would be spent just trying to meet basic needs rather than passing on their nuclear physics knowledge, which would have no use in the practical day to day struggle for survival. Within a generation that theoretical physics knowledge would be lost.

They were colonial world ships.. you mean to tell me if we built a country sized supervessel to escape into the ocean as we saw society moving towards a mad max nobody would bring a computer hard drive with all of the knowledge on how to build electric nuclear power plants and know how on how to start over. Then you scale it up and apparently all of this knowledge was not recorded, qnd the people who lived at the time if the fall and now are part of the infiinity circuit just forgot how things work?

BrianDavion wrote:
seriously, people need to stop reading "indomatus crusade" as "Gulliman and a handful of blue primaris marines"

It's no use, people see anything that could relate to Guilliman and the Primaris Marines and ignore all the actual lore in favour of often outdated or just simply incorrect points instead.


Notable ones include:
The Imperium would never work with xenos, that's heresy! (except for when we see examples of it happening before, like Kantor, or Calgar, or Dante, or the Grey Knights)
Cawl has no right to be as smart as he is! (except that he was one of the original scientists working on the SM project)
There's no way the Dark Angels would ever accept Primaris! (but they're happy to accept new recruits who they can indoctrinate themselves - who could undergo the Rubicon)
Guilliman had no authority to reclaim his position! (except he was vouched for by a senior Inquisitor, high ranking figure in the AdMech, a Living Saint, the Chapter Master of one of the most influential Chapters, several high ranking Space Marine leaders in similarly famous Chapters, and the Custodian Guard)
All Primaris Marines are just "red Ultramarines", as Gabriel Seth puts it! (except that only partially applies to the Indomitus Crusade Primaris - the other two generations of Primaris are, for all intents and purposes, identical in ideology to the rest of their Chapter).

 Argive wrote:
They were colonial world ships.. you mean to tell me if we built a country sized supervessel to escape into the ocean as we saw society moving towards a mad max nobody would bring a computer hard drive with all of the knowledge on how to build electric nuclear power plants and know how on how to start over. Then you scale it up and apparently all of this knowledge was not recorded, qnd the people who lived at the time if the fall and now are part of the infiinity circuit just forgot how things work?

The Craftworlds were a mix of transport ships that then grew through accretion over time, and purpose built arks (like Mymeara). However, the final escape was still chaotic and not all of their civilization could be preserved. For example, Mymeara only escaped with a fraction of its world's population. The exodus of the craftworlds was not an organized evacuation as the empire as a whole had collapsed into rampant anarchy. We also don't know to what degree superweapon information was classified and monopolized. If society were collapsing and everyone was scrambling for the boats, there is no guarantee someone with access to the latest top secret military weaponry is going to be able to make it, let alone make it on board with the detailed knowledge and blueprints to make the weapon (and any prerequisite parts/technology). Knowledge like that is probably not even centralized in one space. There isn't one hard drive sitting somewhere in the Pentagon with a step by step guide to building the latest weapon system from scratch. The information would be in the hands of the various manufacturers and contractors. The more complicated the weapon system, the greater and more complicated the supply chain.

What we see as Craftworld Eldar technology seems to be the more easily reconstructed or established technology, rather than necessarily the latest cutting edge of the Eldar Empire's technology.


Spirits in the infinity circuit don't seem to stay lucid forever. The Eldar novels give a portrayal of the spirits in the infinity circuit afterlife getting more and more remote and disconnected from the real world, and harder to rouse, the further back in time they go.

The entire HH series, with especially the re-imagining of the Wolves and their primarch buried so deep it's turned into fossil fuel.

Guardian armour.. Giving a dying race thats creed is to protect its people above all else armour made from paper.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
seriously, people need to stop reading "indomatus crusade" as "Gulliman and a handful of blue primaris marines"

It's no use, people see anything that could relate to Guilliman and the Primaris Marines and ignore all the actual lore in favour of often outdated or just simply incorrect points instead.


Notable ones include:
The Imperium would never work with xenos, that's heresy! (except for when we see examples of it happening before, like Kantor, or Calgar, or Dante, or the Grey Knights)
Cawl has no right to be as smart as he is! (except that he was one of the original scientists working on the SM project)
There's no way the Dark Angels would ever accept Primaris! (but they're happy to accept new recruits who they can indoctrinate themselves - who could undergo the Rubicon)
Guilliman had no authority to reclaim his position! (except he was vouched for by a senior Inquisitor, high ranking figure in the AdMech, a Living Saint, the Chapter Master of one of the most influential Chapters, several high ranking Space Marine leaders in similarly famous Chapters, and the Custodian Guard)
All Primaris Marines are just "red Ultramarines", as Gabriel Seth puts it! (except that only partially applies to the Indomitus Crusade Primaris - the other two generations of Primaris are, for all intents and purposes, identical in ideology to the rest of their Chapter).

The issue here is that you can't throw setting out of a window just because you decided to pathetically try to get some Asian market bucks or to push new line of models. There are inner rules in Warhammer universe. Like you could not create Tau race who are just happy dudes helping each other and making W40k brighter for everyone, you in a same way cannot have some marry sue committing tech heresies left and right, making mockery of Emperor's hundred of years worth work, you can't just have some eldar dudes invade inner sanctum of holy throne. You can't commit unholy xenos warp sorceries on your primarch in a middle of your cathedral and then pretend that nobody minds that. I wish Crawl being declared publicly as heretek, hunted down and put into endless torture. As for Guiliman. I want this heretic to be resisted as he should be resisted. Nobody breaks so many sacred rules in the Imperium and gets away with it. Well, unless they are ultrasmurfs, they have enough plot armor to do whatever.

 Ernestas wrote:
I agree with that sentiment. There is nothing worse than a writer who doesn't like what he is writing about.

We need more forum users who managed this degree of introspection...

 Ernestas wrote:
Guiliman

 Ernestas wrote:
heretic

Ya-huh...

One piece? That is difficult. If I had to choose, I think it would definitely be the confirmation that the Emperor is "alive" and sentient on the Golden Throne. The ambiguity about whether the entire Imperium was worshipping a literal corpse god was one of the cooler things in the setting.

Overall, I would like to roll back on the certainty, to probably late 3e levels. Undo the Horus Heresy novels, undo the modern background which is written by fanboys who took everything too literally, and put some space and mystery back into the setting.

40K is becoming like Forgotten Realms, a small place governed by a small cast of super heroic or super villainous characters rather than a setting to play games and tell stories in.

 Ernestas wrote:
Here is another legion who despises Chaos, Iron Warriors. They fight as extreme professionals. Never throwing their lives away for nothing. They possess extreme combat discipline rivaling and surpassing some Space Marine chapters. They specialize in logistics, organization and supply in order to wage siege warfare or to construct massive fortresses.

The Iron Warriors most certainly do not despise Chaos. They use sorcerers, many of their number are berzerkers who are quite willing to throw away their military logic for engaging in Khornate bloodletting, they specialize in creating newer and more effective daemon engines, and several of their warsmiths have sought and acquired daemonhood. They may not approach Chaos in the reverential fashion that the Word Bearers do, but it is a major part of who they are.

There definitely needs to be more clarifications with how various Space Marine Chapters and Chaos Marine Legions diverge from their stereotypes.

Painting a entire Chapter or Legion as 1000-100,000 copies of the Poster Boy for their faction is a disservice to how flexible 40k lore actually is.

Ultramarines while followers of the Codex Astartes have people within their ranks that understand it's more guidelines than strict law. As well as people who think its strict law.

Similarly for Chaos; maybe these Warbands of Night Lords don't follow Chaos, but maybe this one Night Lords Sorcerer's warband does.

A lot of 1d4chan followers seem to only understand Black and White, with no room for grey.

That's because a lot of them are kids, kids tend to see things that way, it is natural.

BrianDavion wrote:
for another thing, the sisters of battle on the planet where fighting the deamons during the entire time. It's just was was a losing battle because there where so many deamons.

The book expands quite significantly on the codex lore (quoted) then.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:
Here is another legion who despises Chaos, Iron Warriors. They fight as extreme professionals. Never throwing their lives away for nothing. They possess extreme combat discipline rivaling and surpassing some Space Marine chapters. They specialize in logistics, organization and supply in order to wage siege warfare or to construct massive fortresses.

The Iron Warriors most certainly do not despise Chaos. They use sorcerers, many of their number are berzerkers who are quite willing to throw away their military logic for engaging in Khornate bloodletting, they specialize in creating newer and more effective daemon engines, and several of their warsmiths have sought and acquired daemonhood. They may not approach Chaos in the reverential fashion that the Word Bearers do, but it is a major part of who they are.

By that logic space marines follow Chaos, because they have librarians. Though, what I had meant was an image of half mad, mutation afflicted warrior which usually is definition of Chaos. Iron Warriors on the other hand are organized no worse or even better at some level than loyalist chapters.

 Argive wrote:


DE are what the Aeldari empire was at its worse during the decline (and the fall) and not what it was during its peak . They were not savagely murder humping eachother to death from day one lol.. They were too busy helping in the fight aginst the necrons/ctan and meant they had to constantly strive also culling orcs and saving the gaalxy in the name of the old ones was the objective... The drive was to have mastery over matter and reach "enlightement". They did... It was only once they acievd mastery, and then there was nothing to oppose them that they fell into decay and depravity and murder humping themselves to detah... Tehy didnt achieve the empire through that but rather lost the empire due to that. And it was a gradual process over millions of years.

The Aeldari empire collapsed/fell when it was at its peak, there was no "decline and fall" - they effectively ruled the galaxy and turned to hedonism, decadence, and excess because of their wealth and power, resulting in the birth of Slaanesh which destroyed the core of the Empire instantaneously. When the Aeldari were fighting against the Necrons they were little more than servants to the Old Ones, it wasn't until LONG afterwards that the Aeldari became independent and were the dominant political body in the galaxy.

So yes, the Drukhari are what the Aeldari were at their peak.

They were colonial world ships..

They were actually merchant vessels, not colony ships. They survived because they were far from the core of the Aeldari empire when the birth of Slaanesh occurred or because they were transporting those from the Aeldari core who had become disgusted by what Aeldari culture had become, not necessarily because they had an advanced warning of what was going on. They weren't as hedonistic because they were already culturally distinct from the Aeldari core as a result of being away from Aeldari space on their trading missions for hundreds (if not thousands) of years at a time.

Ernestas wrote:The issue here is that you can't throw setting out of a window just because you decided to pathetically try to get some Asian market bucks or to push new line of models.

It's a good thing that they've not thrown the setting out of the window then, isn't it.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they've "ruined the setting".

There are inner rules in Warhammer universe.

And which ones have been broken? In those examples I've given above, which ones don't work according to these "rules"?

Like you could not create Tau race who are just happy dudes helping each other and making W40k brighter for everyone

Yes, you can. It's what you do with a race that is happy and peaceful that the point lies. Look at the Interex in 30k. They're pretty chill guys, and seem to genuinely want to help humanity. They get slaughtered. The Taus being nice works, because you then see how their worldview breaks down in the wider galaxy.

you in a same way cannot have some marry sue committing tech heresies left and right, making mockery of Emperor's hundred of years worth work,

The work that Cawl did himself, you mean? After all, he is essentially the creator of the Black Carapace. Ooh, and that's without mentioning that the Emperor never actually made the Adeptus Astartes - that was led by a scientist called Amar Astarte!

This is my point about making complaints without even reading the lore - you've decided that Cawl HAS to be a mary sue, without looking at the evidence

Read The Great Work. It's got far more in there about Cawl than any other work, and dismantles practically every complaint about him.

you can't just have some eldar dudes invade inner sanctum of holy throne.

Strange, I seem to remember there being Dark Eldar invited into the throne room by the Mechanicus back in I think 7th edition to help repair the failing Golden Throne? Where were all the complaints then?

You can't commit unholy xenos warp sorceries on your primarch in a middle of your cathedral and then pretend that nobody minds that.

You can when a Living Saint, the Chief Librarian and Chapter Master of one of the most influential Chapters, and a Grand Master of the Grey Knights support it.

I wish Crawl being declared publicly as heretek, hunted down and put into endless torture.

...you do realise it's fiction, right?

As for Guiliman. I want this heretic to be resisted as he should be resisted. Nobody breaks so many sacred rules in the Imperium and gets away with it.

Yes - sacred. And who are the people considered to be sacred and holy and blessed by the Emperor - the Primarchs, Living Saints, and the Custodes? Oh, wait, those are all the people who support Guilliman's stewardship.

Guilliman's a Primarch. It's well recorded that, even IF Guilliman had no legal authority (which he does, granted by the Custodes), people would still adore him because of his transhuman aura.

Well, unless they are ultrasmurfs, they have enough plot armor to do whatever.

Ironic, considering the Space Wolves hold that title.

ArcaneHorror wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:
Here is another legion who despises Chaos, Iron Warriors. They fight as extreme professionals. Never throwing their lives away for nothing. They possess extreme combat discipline rivaling and surpassing some Space Marine chapters. They specialize in logistics, organization and supply in order to wage siege warfare or to construct massive fortresses.

The Iron Warriors most certainly do not despise Chaos. They use sorcerers, many of their number are berzerkers who are quite willing to throw away their military logic for engaging in Khornate bloodletting, they specialize in creating newer and more effective daemon engines, and several of their warsmiths have sought and acquired daemonhood. They may not approach Chaos in the reverential fashion that the Word Bearers do, but it is a major part of who they are.

Agreed. For decentralised Legions, there's more than enough room for members to be devoted to Chaos, devoted to singular Gods, or hate everything to do with Chaos.
There's plenty of room for Night Lords to worship a certain god. There's plenty of room for a Death Guard legionary to hate Chaos. The idea that "this Legion hates Chaos" as if the Legion was even properly unified just isn't what we're shown.

As said above - the "extreme professional" Iron Warriors have Berzerkers in their ranks. They use Daemon Engines. They've even been content to summon Daemonic armies and plagues to further their goals.

 Da Boss wrote:
One piece? That is difficult. If I had to choose, I think it would definitely be the confirmation that the Emperor is "alive" and sentient on the Golden Throne. The ambiguity about whether the entire Imperium was worshipping a literal corpse god was one of the cooler things in the setting.

Overall, I would like to roll back on the certainty, to probably late 3e levels. Undo the Horus Heresy novels, undo the modern background which is written by fanboys who took everything too literally, and put some space and mystery back into the setting.

40K is becoming like Forgotten Realms, a small place governed by a small cast of super heroic or super villainous characters rather than a setting to play games and tell stories in.

Yes this! I dislike that they expanded so much on HH, and became more serious.


Most/all special characters - and their ability to never, ever die.

It's great to have stories of heroic individuals, but when the whole universe appears to revolve around them, it gets a bit too narrow, in my opinion. My dudes don't feel like they matter, because their dudes are always saving the day.

 Ernestas wrote:
By that logic space marines follow Chaos, because they have librarians.

Having Librarians has never meant attachment to the Chaos Gods, unless you're implying that the Grey Knights are Chaos worshippers.

Librarians draw power from the Warp. Sorcerors often draw power from the Chaos Gods themselves (of course, there's Sorcerors who have natural psychic power, like Librarians).