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 Insectum7 wrote:
You'r going to be waiting for a long time. I didn't state an opinion, I posted a verifiable claim, and posted data to back it up.

No, you didn't.

You posted two maps, and claimed that one was more important than the other. How do you prove "importance", especially in a fictional universe? You've not made a "verifiable claim" at all, you've stated an opinion, and claimed that two maps in a made-up universe are objective proof of how one is important and how another is not. There isn't a crumb of objective or solid data in there at all that exists beyond the sphere of your opinion.

Until you can address this point (that you can objectively prove things relating to a fictional universe), I see no reason to discuss this with you.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
You'r going to be waiting for a long time. I didn't state an opinion, I posted a verifiable claim, and posted data to back it up.

No, you didn't.

You posted two maps, and claimed that one was more important than the other. How do you prove "importance", especially in a fictional universe? You've not made a "verifiable claim" at all, you've stated an opinion, and claimed that two maps in a made-up universe are objective proof of how one is important and how another is not. There isn't a crumb of objective or solid data in there at all that exists beyond the sphere of your opinion.

Until you can address this point (that you can objectively prove things relating to a fictional universe), I see no reason to discuss this with you.

In a argument about lore, one cites lore.

One map represents a much larger space than the other. I claim that this means one event is more important than the other.

Your turn.

Okay folks, calm down and keep in mind that Rule #1, to be polite and excellent to one another at all time, is NOT optional.

Scale has little to do with importance in the grand scheme of things.

 Insectum7 wrote:
In a argument about lore, one cites lore.

You posted some maps. That is lore. I agree. What you didn't do was explain how that lore was important, or in any way "objective".
You made the point that one map is more important than another. Where's the evidence of that? Where's the lore behind that? You didn't post any.

One map represents a much larger space than the other. I claim that this means one event is more important than the other.

Larger space isn't absolute in terms of importance. Terra is one planet, yet is it more important in 40k's mythos, history, and current setting than the entire Segmentus Pacificus. You know, that sector that got nearly completely lost to the Imperium not once, but twice? I don't really hear much about that, but I guess because 'it more big, it more important'.

Back to the drawing board, I suppose - can prove to me that your opinions are objectively correct?


(For what it's worth, there's absolutely nothing wrong with "only" having an opinion. You're allowed opinions. Just don't pretend like they're objective facts, is what I'm saying.)

Scale isn't the end-all be all, but within that scale is numbers.

Armageddon is a Hive World, of which there are. . . perhaps thousands?

The Great Rift has likely swallowed wholesale a great many Hive Worlds. So, for funsies, let's say 100 Armageddons are now in unstable warp space and potentially cut off from the worlds they would normally be supporting/be supported by.

So 1 Armageddon, vs. 100 Armageddons. And there's your difference.

But are those 100 Armageddons more important to the overall narrative of the 40k universe than the single one that got a story?

 flandarz wrote:
But are those 100 Armageddons more important to the overall narrative of the 40k universe than the single one that got a story?

Armageddon is one of them, according to the 7th Ed rule book.

Also, it's unlikely that Armageddon is a super-fancy hive world. According to the Armageddon book, Armageddon is very important to the. . . Armageddon sub-sector. "Whole systems" depend on it. That's pretty par for the course of a Hive World, as all Hive Worlds are industrial bases and mass recruitment centers.

Btw, my initial number of 1000 Hive Worlds was way low according to 40K fandom, which says ". . . there are approximately 32,380 currently catalogued by the Administratum in the Imperium of Man."

So Cicatrix Maledictum covering 10% of the galaxy nets us 3,238 Armageddons. Fudge the numbers if you want, and say Armageddon is a "major" Hive World. . . . but you're still contending with a substantially lopsided comparison, to say the least.

The thing I think Smudge is getting at is that Armageddon is important in terms of the 40k narrative. Is it as important as the entire Rift? I dunno. But it was important enough to warrant being the focus of a story.

 flandarz wrote:
The thing I think Smudge is getting at is that Armageddon is important in terms of the 40k narrative. Is it as important as the entire Rift? I dunno. But it was important enough to warrant being the focus of a story.

Armageddon is a 40K story. One of thousands of possible 40K stories of similar size and importance to the 40K universe. Armageddon is fundamentally just a template, that actually has little, if any, greater bearing on the setting of 40K as a whole. Armageddon was originally based off a series of games that the studio itself played. Ghazghul Thrakka was originally just one of the Ork Bosses that some studio personality made. That's the difference some of us are getting at. Armageddon is mostly an example of "This is how you can tell a 40K story, now make up your own characters and tell one yourself." You can have your own "important" Hive World and it's no more or less important the Armageddon.

It was arguably the same with named characters in those days. Most of the time you could build characters that out shined the studio ones. You could make a Chaos Lord that made Abaddon look like a chump. The idea was, "Here's the tool set and some examples, now go do it yourself. We've created this universe expansive enough for all of your creations."

I agree with that 100%. I was under the impression we were discussing "which canonical event or place is more important in the 40k setting?"

 flandarz wrote:
I agree with that 100%. I was under the impression we were discussing "which canonical event or place is more important in the 40k setting?"

One story changes the fate of a relatively small number of systems associated with Armageddon.

One story redraws the galactic map, affecting potentially thousands of Armageddons and associated systems.

I'm arguing that one is of vastly larger scope and far more impactfull to the setting.

I'd also argue it represents a sort of gratuitous scale inflation that's bad for the setting. Couple that with your long lost heroes returning from the dead and. . . it's a shift.

Not that it can't be still GrimDark. But we had a setting in which the legendary heroes of the past were all lost, but major villains of the past were functionally or literally immortal. Imo there's a certain gravitas to that.

I'd be happy to see the best friend executing bit gone from the Commissar background. Personally I don't think it fits in the likes of Commissar Gaunt or Commissar Cain. Brutality is one thing but this is just a waste of good resources. The person who implement this should be executed for wasting resources. Remember the Munitorum (which is over the Guard, Navy and Commissars etc) get angry if you put one millilitre more fuel in vehicle than your docket says.

Insectum7 wrote:Scale isn't the end-all be all, but within that scale is numbers.

Armageddon is a Hive World, of which there are. . . perhaps thousands?

The Great Rift has likely swallowed wholesale a great many Hive Worlds. So, for funsies, let's say 100 Armageddons are now in unstable warp space and potentially cut off from the worlds they would normally be supporting/be supported by.

So 1 Armageddon, vs. 100 Armageddons. And there's your difference.

All I'll say is that there's a reason we're talking about Armageddon, and not the others.
Armageddon may once have been "just another invasion", in the 2nd War, perhaps, but the 3rd War is completely unique and the stakes are far higher.

 flandarz wrote:
The thing I think Smudge is getting at is that Armageddon is important in terms of the 40k narrative. Is it as important as the entire Rift? I dunno. But it was important enough to warrant being the focus of a story.

Yeah, that was my point - in terms of storytelling in 40k, they are both important narrative events. Hell, Armageddon is probably more important to the Ork narrative than the Great Rift is!

Insectum7 wrote:Armageddon is a 40K story. One of thousands of possible 40K stories of similar size and importance to the 40K universe. Armageddon is fundamentally just a template, that actually has little, if any, greater bearing on the setting of 40K as a whole.

That's where I disagree though - Armageddon may have started as a template, but it's not that any more - it's become a black hole of resources, manpower, and importance in the setting, and is critical for the greater Ork narrative.

Armageddon is mostly an example of "This is was how you can tell a 40K story, now make up your own characters and tell one yourself."

I've corrected that to show my opinion of it - Armageddon, for some time, hasn't been "just" a normal Hive.

You can have your own "important" Hive World and it's no more or less important the Armageddon.

Agreed, although Armageddon CURRENTLY is very important to the setting's mythos and lore. In the same respect, you *could* have a more important world than Macragge or Baal, but you're running the risk of coming across a little OTT.

It was arguably the same with named characters in those days. Most of the time you could build characters that out shined the studio ones. You could make a Chaos Lord that made Abaddon look like a chump. The idea was, "Here's the tool set and some examples, now go do it yourself. We've created this universe expansive enough for all of your creations."

And that's not changed. Things like Slamguinius, Chainlords, and so on are usually superior to characters like Sicarius, Cassius, Vulkan, Kor'sarro, etc etc.

As I think we're both saying - who cares what GW do? They've always done their own characters and story events, but who cares?

Insectum7 wrote:...Not that it can't be still GrimDark

That's my point. You look at all the new stuff, and you don't think it's Grimdark. That's 100% okay. But I look at the new stuff, and it's still Grimdark to me. It's still the setting that I love. And that's just my opinion, but it's just as objectively valid as yours - in that neither are objective whatsoever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tygre wrote:
I'd be happy to see the best friend executing bit gone from the Commissar background. Personally I don't think it fits in the likes of Commissar Gaunt or Commissar Cain. Brutality is one thing but this is just a waste of good resources. The person who implement this should be executed for wasting resources. Remember the Munitorum (which is over the Guard, Navy and Commissars etc) get angry if you put one millilitre more fuel in vehicle than your docket says.

As I understood it, I thought that was only for certain Scholas, not all. But Gaunt certainly feels like he shouldn't have been that kind of Commissar.

1 >= ~3,200. -Sgt. Smudge 2020.

Cite something specific to make a case for it.

Tygre wrote:
I'd be happy to see the best friend executing bit gone from the Commissar background. Personally I don't think it fits in the likes of Commissar Gaunt or Commissar Cain. Brutality is one thing but this is just a waste of good resources. The person who implement this should be executed for wasting resources. Remember the Munitorum (which is over the Guard, Navy and Commissars etc) get angry if you put one millilitre more fuel in vehicle than your docket says.

Fuel is expensive. Lives are cheap.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Tygre wrote:
I'd be happy to see the best friend executing bit gone from the Commissar background. Personally I don't think it fits in the likes of Commissar Gaunt or Commissar Cain. Brutality is one thing but this is just a waste of good resources. The person who implement this should be executed for wasting resources. Remember the Munitorum (which is over the Guard, Navy and Commissars etc) get angry if you put one millilitre more fuel in vehicle than your docket says.

Fuel is expensive. Lives are cheap.

Rocks are not free, citizen.

 Insectum7 wrote:
1 >= ~3,200. -Sgt. Smudge 2020.

Cite something specific to make a case for it.

So Terra isn't important, because it's just one Hive World?

Some worlds are more important than others.

 Insectum7 wrote:
1 >= ~3,200. -Sgt. Smudge 2020.

Cite something specific to make a case for it.

I do get his point that Armageddon is certainly more important to the Orks narrative then the great rift. I see the great rift more as not taking away from anything (let's face it, none of the stories battles etc told in the past wouldn't work in the modern post cadia era) but the great rift adds some new, potentially intreasting areas to explore. When GW chooses to really explore it. not sure if, for example the PA focused on Blkood angels vs 'nids really touched on it, but I know the novel "the emperor's spears" was a fascinating story about a marine chapter cut off by the great rift, it was, truthfully quite intreasting

From a whole of 40k perspective however, Armageddon is unimportant.

Which was the whole thrust of this conversation in the first place -40k as a whole, as the galaxy, is now affected by the decisions of a few characters far more than at any time in the game's history.

Yarrick's victory at Hades hive is less than nothing by comparison

BrianDavion wrote:the great rift adds some new, potentially intreasting areas to explore. When GW chooses to really explore it. not sure if, for example the PA focused on Blkood angels vs 'nids really touched on it, but I know the novel "the emperor's spears" was a fascinating story about a marine chapter cut off by the great rift, it was, truthfully quite intreasting

Exactly this. The narrative potential and accessibility of the new stuff is really pretty good, and when I see what feels like kneejerk "it's nu-40k so it's bad" takes, I wish they'd look at the truth of what's been presented rather than the basic 1d4chan glance.

Hellebore wrote:From a whole of 40k perspective however, Armageddon is unimportant.

Maybe it once was. Now it's not. The Tau were once an significant empire, playable in the game to represent similar insignificant empires. Now, they have more worlds, the ability to travel beyond the Damocles Gulf via the Startide Nexus, and are carving out a sizeable realm. Things change, and have for a while.

Armageddon has been more than just an example of a "normal" Hive World for years now. It's importance has grown by sheer exposure, both in and out of universe.

Which was the whole thrust of this conversation in the first place -40k as a whole, as the galaxy, is now affected by the decisions of a few characters far more than at any time in the game's history.

Is it? That's my argument - by all means, if you're of the opinion that it is, don't let me take that from you, but it certainly isn't a factual comment - and I want to make it clear that GW having their characters do things has never, and will never, prevent you from doing your own thing.

Yarrick's victory at Hades hive is less than nothing by comparison

Yarrick's victory led to a whole other war for Armageddon, because he was so iconic to the greenskins, a war which advanced Ork technological understanding (Tellyportas), caused more Orks to flock to Thraka and grow stronger from the conflict, and draw even more Imperial forces into the meatgrinder of another lengthy war.

The battle alone? Insignificant on a galactic scale. The consequences of that battle? Even more important than something like Vigilus, I'd argue.

Armageddon also put Thraka on a crusade to unite the tribes/waaaghs across the galaxy in which he apparently has access to time travel and is able to manifest in different areas of space at the same time.

On the Abaddon Scale Thrakka is probably at the Gothic War step, i.e one strategic victory away from his ‘Cadia Falls’ moment.

In terms of the universe, Armageddon was one of many large wars. If lost, the ramifications could have ballooned outward to a devastating affect throughout a sector of space, but there were many of those in that millenium, and hardly alone in that front.

In terms of the game, it was rather impactful introducing the Kult of Speed, Steel Legion, Salamanders, and Black Templars as specific variants of known codices, which have had ramifications (both positive and negative) ever since.

 Charistoph wrote:
In terms of the universe, Armageddon was one of many large wars. If lost, the ramifications could have ballooned outward to a devastating affect throughout a sector of space, but there were many of those in that millenium, and hardly alone in that front.

One of many, but was still exceptional, in much the same way that Cadia or Terra are exceptional worlds.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
1 >= ~3,200. -Sgt. Smudge 2020.

Cite something specific to make a case for it.

So Terra isn't important, because it's just one Hive World?

Some worlds are more important than others.

You're still trying to sidestep the resposibility of making a case for why Armageddon is so important. You're still contending against the numbers I've given. Give specifics, not vague claims like "well terra is important, right?"

The reason Terra is important is easy to ascertain. Terra is the literal seat of the Emperor, plus the Astronomicon. Without their combined efforts providing a navigational beacon in the warp, the relative stability of human warp travel ceases and the Imperium falls apart.

So Smudge, out of the 32,000 hive worlds, why is Armageddon so important?

I cant believe this has gone on for 3 pages and is still going. If someone thinks armageddon is as important as the great rift, who cares? It's make believe.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
1 >= ~3,200. -Sgt. Smudge 2020.

Cite something specific to make a case for it.

So Terra isn't important, because it's just one Hive World?

Some worlds are more important than others.

You're still trying to sidestep the resposibility of making a case for why Armageddon is so important. You're still contending against the numbers I've given. Give specifics, not vague claims like "well terra is important, right?"

The reason Terra is important is easy to ascertain. Terra is the literal seat of the Emperor, plus the Astronomicon. Without their combined efforts providing a navigational beacon in the warp, the relative stability of human warp travel ceases and the Imperium falls apart.

So Smudge, out of the 32,000 hive worlds, why is Armageddon so important?

Two of the most powerful Ork warlords in history popped up on it, the place was used as a template for creating planet sized Ork battle stations and it's reasonable to assume that there's a fair amount of Ork relics there that would make Orks jump in power.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I cant believe this has gone on for 3 pages and is still going. If someone thinks armageddon is as important as the great rift, who cares? It's make believe.

Yeah definitely bored of this.

On that note: not exactly "lore" but a commonly held belief among many. The idea that all traitor Astartes are chaos tainted, mutated, and actively worship the chaos gods and consort with daemons. Hating the Imperium and wanting to bring about it's downfall requires none of those things. Yeah lots of heretics do. But not all.

Insectum7 wrote:You're still trying to sidestep the resposibility of making a case for why Armageddon is so important.

I've given my case - my case being that it holds great strategtic importance, and symbolic importance to the Ork race.

You're still contending against the numbers I've given.

The numbers you've given mean absolutely nothing.

Who cares if 32000 worlds are like Armageddon (although I disagree with that notion, seeing as you're basing that off of the idea that Armageddon is like a normal Hive World) - we hear about Armageddon, not those 32000 worlds.

Give specifics, not vague claims like "well terra is important, right?"

The reason Terra is important is easy to ascertain. Terra is the literal seat of the Emperor, plus the Astronomicon. Without their combined efforts providing a navigational beacon in the warp, the relative stability of human warp travel ceases and the Imperium falls apart.

And Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
You're being humano-centric.

So Smudge, out of the 32,000 hive worlds, why is Armageddon so important?

Because of all the reasons I've given. Because we're talking about Armageddon, and not those 32000 Hive Worlds. That's why it's important, IMO.

You disagree? That's okay. But that's just your opinion, same as mine is.

queen_annes_revenge wrote:I cant believe this has gone on for 3 pages and is still going. If someone thinks armageddon is as important as the great rift, who cares? It's make believe.

Exactly. I don't care if Insectum here thinks the Armageddon means nothing, or whatever, but when they make claims like "it's an objective fact that this is more important", it's a bit sad, really.

It's a fictional universe. Who cares if someone else thinks X is more important then Y?

I’d say all of the Alpharius/Omegon fluff. And him being a tiny primarch.