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I would remove Primaris Marines from existence. They are most nonsensical, non lore friendly thing. I do agree that Space Marines needed Primaris Marines stat line from the beginning, but this is just silly. At worst just call them Thunder Warriors where some tech priest had found ancient template which Emperor had used and simply started making those warriors again.

Then Crawl and all the other tech heresies and bro moments when Imperium and Necrons fight together or any such similar nonsense. When lore is saved, I would then rewrite Chaos in order not to be a mere parody of its past sense, but actually as something which makes sense. I would also then create logical story line where after initial Black Crusade Guiliman is declared as an enemy of the Imperium for his countless heretical acts and damn him for being a product of a vile warp sorcery. GW writers have no clue what they are doing with their lore anymore. It is too big for them to understand and they just keep writing utter nonsense after utter nonsense.

mrFickle wrote:
Orks talking like football hooligans in bad English

Shoota, Choppa, Ere we go!, Gitz

It’s stupid, they should just be mean AF, not the comic relief. 40k doesn’t need a comic relief army

Ever been started on by a Football Hooligan?

It's really not funny at all.

Oh yeah I forgot primaris. Terrible lore! New armour mark. Done.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Orks talking like football hooligans in bad English

Shoota, Choppa, Ere we go!, Gitz

It’s stupid, they should just be mean AF, not the comic relief. 40k doesn’t need a comic relief army

Ever been started on by a Football Hooligan?

It's really not funny at all.

Haha sure but what I mean is they are an alien species and their language and culture is presented like something out of a Viz comic.
If they want somehtigg by silly they should do a gretchin army but the Orks should a darker. Grim darker.

Perpetuals, and Kaldor Draigo.... what a shower of gak lore they are.

mrFickle wrote:
Orks talking like football hooligans in bad English

Shoota, Choppa, Ere we go!, Gitz

It’s stupid, they should just be mean AF, not the comic relief. 40k doesn’t need a comic relief army

I bet you're a fun opponent.

I quite like the cockney geez ork voice.. It made me laugh in the space marine game.

I think the Ork accent is perfect for their aesthetic. Because, in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, the only people having a good time are the Orkz. They aren't fighting to survive, or the expand their influence, or to defend their territories. They fight because it's what they love to do.

It also gives them a very distinct identity from Tolkien-esque/Fantasy Orcs, which I enjoy immensely.

Not so much a removal but a rewrite. I wish Horus's fall was more drawn out and more of his own volition, with input from Erebus, rather than based around a fever dream.

mrFickle wrote:Haha sure but what I mean is they are an alien species and their language and culture is presented like something out of a Viz comic.
If they want somehtigg by silly they should do a gretchin army but the Orks should a darker. Grim darker.

Orks do have their own language, as shown in the Guy Haley Ork stories. Only a minority of them are capable of speaking Low Gothic, and it comes out as you describe. The rest are only saying a set of weird syllables and grunting noises.

Big Mac wrote:Kal Draigo going into the warp and fight demons in their turf, every fluff Matty Ward writes. There is a reason GW don’t publish the author behind their codexes, instead it publish the whole team.

So...remove the Fall of Cadia?

BrianDavion wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Guy Haley's Konrad Curze novel.

for those of us who've not read it.. summerize?

Haley, a generally good author (he can actually make the Blood Angels interesting, which is almost like turning water into wine) obviously isn't a Night Lords fan, doesn't understand them and their existing lore, and made little effort to learn such things. Examples:

He shows Curze as seeing multiple futures: Curze always only saw the worst possible future. That's one of the things that drove him mad.

He shows Sevatar freely using his psychic powers though hiding them: Sevatar was a repressed psycker. He never used his powers purposefully because he was afraid they would be discovered or grow in power.

Haley portrays Nostromo as a oppressively hot planet: Nostromo has always been portrayed as a cold, rainy planet. He also portrays it as lit by many lights. Nostromo is a primarily dark world. If it was lit up by lightning why did Nostromans develop the ability to see in darkness?

These are some examples but much of my problem is just the portrayal of Curze and his legion. They are shown as inferior and dolts. Allowing things like letting the Raven Guard get the drop on them. He has Curze crucifying rats for feths sake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I liked the konrad curze novel. I think it showed him in an interesting light.

Spoiler:

basically, his prison coffin that sangy threw into space is picked up by a salvage ship. he commandeers the ship to tsagualsa to reunite the night lords. told simultaneously with depictions of him talking to an effigy of the emperor that hes stitched together from corpses.

it was pretty good I thought.

Yes it might be ok if you're not a fan of the legion, just like St. Anger might be an ok album if you've never heard Master of Puppets.

Okay I admit it the Orks are great I just wanted think of something to say other than Primaris. I’ve seen people have much better ideas for how they could have been introduced on these forums. How did they get it so wrong

I'm a big night lords fan. I didn't notice the things you mentioned, but they are fair observations.

I did like the portrayal of him as a madman though.. a bit like joker.

I also like st anger in its own way...

-Guardsman- wrote:
More of a general tendency than a specific thing, but... it seems that every time the lower classes of the Imperium seek to revolt against their oppressors, it turns out that they are being manipulated by Chaos, Tyranids, etc. Oh, isn't that convenient? That means we no longer have to sympathize with their plight, and can now root for their crushing defeat! That means the Imperium's fascist and theocratic dystopia was justified all along! Because you see, if the Imperium weren't so genocidally brutal, it would never stand a chance!

It's almost like the writers themselves think that the Imperium is the best possible regime one can have in this grimdark setting. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Screw that. Show us that there can be dissent against the Imperium that isn't tied to those who seek to destroy humankind.

.

I think there's a mixture of cart and horse here.

Sometimes, brutal aspects of the imperium are explained by the crazy circumstances that created it: See the Men of Iron creating the imperium's supersitition regarding AI.

There's also the in-universe explanation of their repressive nature explained by these forces that work to overthrow the imperium. Does the fact that rebellion always turns out to be based around chaos, tau and tyranids because those forces are 'inevitable' or because people will only be able to meaningfully rebel if they're given power to do so by SOMETHING? After all, a rebellion backed by the genestealer cult hive mind is far more likely to succeed than a rebellion backed by mere humans.

also all those things always happen because that's what GW makes models for :/

But hey, in the latest book we've got Tau rebels too!

I'm fine with Primaris, because I feel like they will just replace normal Space Marines and they won't really matter after that. All the Mary Sue-ness of not having the mutations of previous SM will be gradually replaced and we'll get Death Company Primaris for Blood Angels and such.

I definitely would like to remove every time Chaos uses the Orks/Other Xenos to further their goals. Because man I hate how Armageddon/Ullanor is less Orks fighting for their homeworld. Angron hijacking it so that the Imperium can fight World Eaters makes me kind of upset. Though if it changes Armageddon from Imperium VS Orks to World Eaters VS Orks I'd be happy/fine.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I'm a big night lords fan. I didn't notice the things you mentioned, but they are fair observations.

I did like the portrayal of him as a madman though.. a bit like joker.

I also like st anger in its own way...

Yes I felt the portrayal of his madness was one of the things Haley handled well, for the most part. But his overall portrayal of the legion felt like he wasn't a fan and was just writing the book as a "job" to me.

The St. Anger thing is probably a generational thing. It just doesn't do it for an old metalhead who grew up in the 80s.

I agree with that sentiment. There is nothing worse than a writer who doesn't like what he is writing about. You get then stories where one primarch/faction is super awesome and kicks ungodly amount of ass while another looks like incompetent fool. As for Horus Heresy books, fall to Chaos is in general weakly portrayed aspect of those books. The issue is how massive Horus Heresy is and GW needed to make it into a lot bigger project than they did. Each Legion getting their own omnibus/trilogies. A good example is Fulgrim and his legion. Fulgrim just fell to Slaaneshy demon and it felt forced, rapid with little resistance from Fulgrim. In addition, major plot points like he had killed a bloody Primarch or knocked him down previously are just minor things which they throw out in just a page or two! You can't develop your stories naturally and fully in order for them to really pay off and feel logical.

 Ernestas wrote:
I agree with that sentiment. There is nothing worse than a writer who doesn't like what he is writing about. You get then stories where one primarch/faction is super awesome and kicks ungodly amount of ass while another looks like incompetent fool. As for Horus Heresy books, fall to Chaos is in general weakly portrayed aspect of those books. The issue is how massive Horus Heresy is and GW needed to make it into a lot bigger project than they did. Each Legion getting their own omnibus/trilogies. A good example is Fulgrim and his legion. Fulgrim just fell to Slaaneshy demon and it felt forced, rapid with little resistance from Fulgrim. In addition, major plot points like he had killed a bloody Primarch or knocked him down previously are just minor things which they throw out in just a page or two! You can't develop your stories naturally and fully in order for them to really pay off and feel logical.

The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:
I agree with that sentiment. There is nothing worse than a writer who doesn't like what he is writing about. You get then stories where one primarch/faction is super awesome and kicks ungodly amount of ass while another looks like incompetent fool. As for Horus Heresy books, fall to Chaos is in general weakly portrayed aspect of those books. The issue is how massive Horus Heresy is and GW needed to make it into a lot bigger project than they did. Each Legion getting their own omnibus/trilogies. A good example is Fulgrim and his legion. Fulgrim just fell to Slaaneshy demon and it felt forced, rapid with little resistance from Fulgrim. In addition, major plot points like he had killed a bloody Primarch or knocked him down previously are just minor things which they throw out in just a page or two! You can't develop your stories naturally and fully in order for them to really pay off and feel logical.

The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.

Acerbus and Vandred and Skraivok and Savasdus and Hekatos would disagree with you.

jareddm wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:
I agree with that sentiment. There is nothing worse than a writer who doesn't like what he is writing about. You get then stories where one primarch/faction is super awesome and kicks ungodly amount of ass while another looks like incompetent fool. As for Horus Heresy books, fall to Chaos is in general weakly portrayed aspect of those books. The issue is how massive Horus Heresy is and GW needed to make it into a lot bigger project than they did. Each Legion getting their own omnibus/trilogies. A good example is Fulgrim and his legion. Fulgrim just fell to Slaaneshy demon and it felt forced, rapid with little resistance from Fulgrim. In addition, major plot points like he had killed a bloody Primarch or knocked him down previously are just minor things which they throw out in just a page or two! You can't develop your stories naturally and fully in order for them to really pay off and feel logical.

The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.

Acerbus and Vandred and Skraivok and Savasdus and Hekatos would disagree with you.

Ok, so five examples in an entire legion. Curze never embraced chaos, and the legion generally looks down on those that do as week. Vandred ultimately turned on his daemon.

It should also be pointed out that the Night Lords are the only legion that sometimes tells Abaddon to go feth off when he calls on them to join his Black Crusades. Notice the legion who's missing in the old Eye of Terror campaign book?

Newcrons

Primaris

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.

I disagree, Night Lords were always Chaos. The only sense that they didn’t fall is in that they started at rock bottom.

Other legions execute atrocities, hunt the weak, amass wealth and generally cause terror on the instruction of warlords, gods or doctrine. Night Lords do it not to please anyone or anything else. They just do it because thats who they are to the core. Chaos.

nareik wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.

I disagree, Night Lords were always Chaos. The only sense that they didn’t fall is in that they started at rock bottom.

Other legions execute atrocities, hunt the weak, amass wealth and generally cause terror on the instruction of warlords, gods or doctrine. Night Lords do it not to please anyone or anything else. They just do it because thats who they are to the core. Chaos.

Agree they do it because that's what they are at their core, but it's not for the chaos gods. They don't worship chaos. They do those things because that's who they are (and were created to be that by the Emperor). That's what makes them so terrifying and why they're my favorite legion. They serve no one.

No gods. No masters.

nareik wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.

I disagree, Night Lords were always Chaos. The only sense that they didn’t fall is in that they started at rock bottom.

Other legions execute atrocities, hunt the weak, amass wealth and generally cause terror on the instruction of warlords, gods or doctrine. Night Lords do it not to please anyone or anything else. They just do it because thats who they are to the core. Chaos.

Agreed. Whilst we're at it too, rid the world of the stupidity that is the "Alpha Legion are super secret good guys, honest guv!" that has been memed to death and needs to have died in a fire yesterday.

Whatever the AL were and whatever their intentions may have been they are no longer that. Yup, no Chaos worshippers to see here- these DPs, Daemon Engines and Possessed are all super secretly sneaky like, working for the Imperium.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

nareik wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.

I disagree, Night Lords were always Chaos. The only sense that they didn’t fall is in that they started at rock bottom.

Other legions execute atrocities, hunt the weak, amass wealth and generally cause terror on the instruction of warlords, gods or doctrine. Night Lords do it not to please anyone or anything else. They just do it because thats who they are to the core. Chaos.

Agree they do it because that's what they are at their core, but it's not for the chaos gods. They don't worship chaos. They do those things because that's who they are (and were created to be that by the Emperor). That's what makes them so terrifying and why they're my favorite legion. They serve no one.

No gods. No masters.

I just checked the codex and it agrees with you. Would be nice if we had a suplement and some specific units to differentiate them from other CSM .

Gadzilla666 wrote:

nareik wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.

I disagree, Night Lords were always Chaos. The only sense that they didn’t fall is in that they started at rock bottom.

Other legions execute atrocities, hunt the weak, amass wealth and generally cause terror on the instruction of warlords, gods or doctrine. Night Lords do it not to please anyone or anything else. They just do it because thats who they are to the core. Chaos.

Agree they do it because that's what they are at their core, but it's not for the chaos gods. They don't worship chaos. They do those things because that's who they are (and were created to be that by the Emperor). That's what makes them so terrifying and why they're my favorite legion. They serve no one.

No gods. No masters.

They may not consciously worship Chaos, but they certainly do. To give another example, Fabius Bile is a staunch atheist and does not believe in the very existence of the Chaos gods (or rather, whatever the LATD refer to as "gods" are not that); however you can see the subtle influence of Slaanesh that inflicted the rest of his legion plagues him too. The pursuit of perfection and obsession. Bile denies the existence of Slaanesh but his relentless quest to create the perfect race of New Men is fuelled by Slaanesh and Slaanesh is fuelling him. Why does he need the constant need to tinker with their genetics? Why is he never satisfied with his greatest work? Because Chaos.

The gods can manipulate their mortal minions in ways they cannot comprehend.

mrFickle wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

nareik wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.

I disagree, Night Lords were always Chaos. The only sense that they didn’t fall is in that they started at rock bottom.

Other legions execute atrocities, hunt the weak, amass wealth and generally cause terror on the instruction of warlords, gods or doctrine. Night Lords do it not to please anyone or anything else. They just do it because thats who they are to the core. Chaos.

Agree they do it because that's what they are at their core, but it's not for the chaos gods. They don't worship chaos. They do those things because that's who they are (and were created to be that by the Emperor). That's what makes them so terrifying and why they're my favorite legion. They serve no one.

No gods. No masters.

I just checked the codex and it agrees with you. Would be nice if we had a suplement and some specific units to differentiate them from other CSM .

Don't. Get. Me. Started.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, so five examples in an entire legion. Curze never embraced chaos, and the legion generally looks down on those that do as week. Vandred ultimately turned on his daemon.

It should also be pointed out that the Night Lords are the only legion that sometimes tells Abaddon to go feth off when he calls on them to join his Black Crusades. Notice the legion who's missing in the old Eye of Terror campaign book?

They sure weren't missing in Fall of Cadia, or from this list: ttps://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/13th_Black_Crusade_Forces#Chaos_Forces or at Vigilus where they also fought alongside Abaddon. And these aren't "just" five examples. Each one of them led a warband, all but one of which they pushed entirely towards chaos and mutation, with one being the largest Night Lords warband in the galaxy.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
They don't worship chaos.

Not a requirement for falling to chaos.

Space Wolves exist.

jareddm wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, so five examples in an entire legion. Curze never embraced chaos, and the legion generally looks down on those that do as week. Vandred ultimately turned on his daemon.

It should also be pointed out that the Night Lords are the only legion that sometimes tells Abaddon to go feth off when he calls on them to join his Black Crusades. Notice the legion who's missing in the old Eye of Terror campaign book?

They sure weren't missing in Fall of Cadia, or from this list: ttps://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/13th_Black_Crusade_Forces#Chaos_Forces or at Vigilus where they also fought alongside Abaddon. And these aren't "just" five examples. Each one of them led a warband, all but one of which they pushed entirely towards chaos and mutation, with one being the largest Night Lords warband in the galaxy.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
They don't worship chaos.

Not a requirement for falling to chaos.

If having a few war bands deviating from the norm counts against the entire legion, which has no centralized command structure linking war bands together, then some first founding chapters had better start getting real worried about what their successor chapters have been up to.

To continue on this theme, the idea that being bad means you are chaos needs to go.

There's skinning people for fun and there's doing it for chaos. They are distinct. The Nightlords are as connected to chaos as the blood angels are. Which is, in a metaphysical sense true of all existence.


Chaos is a background radiation to all existence no matter how virtuous. but falling to chaos is a far more deliberate thing