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Yes they did thrown an entire setting out of a window and started anew. Ever heard of Age of Sigmar?

Age of Sigmar isn't warhammer 40k, no one denies they literally ditched the WFB setting. 40k didn't et that treatment, that said they have been making some changes, but thats normal. setting grow, evolve and yes.. change.

Difficulties in doing science at such level. Technology in W40k rarely benefits species as a whole. Imperium tried to improve on Emperor's work countless times. Ever heard of skinless Raven Guard marines? Ever heard of Cursed founding? Emperor's work was simply made mockery of and it contradicts internal rules of setting. Space marines are established as very effective special forces. So why Tau doesn't get their own Primaris? Chaos was trying to make them for so many years, why they don't get Primaris? Why for feth sake every technologically advanced race now doesn't have their own Primaris Marines?

this has been explained, multiple times, lemme explain it to you nice and simple in a big bold fault. Cawl was one of the scientists who developed space marines in the first p[lace, as such he has insider knowledge of the process. And Primaris Marine crafting was not an exact science. the end result is the best he could do. there where several ideas Cawl could not actually make work
Cawl isn't just some dude. he was a personal student of the emperor's.

No, you can't. This is why there was so much hate for Tau and why they were retconed in the end. Any good faction looks out of place in Warhammer setting and is generally disliked by everyone. Good factions which you mentioned generally get destroyed before such radical and dangerous ideas as "democracy", "human rights" and "progress" can ever take hold.

yet Tau ARE a popular faction. and the same people dumping on Tau are the ones dumping on Primaris Marines. People whom haven't looked beyond the inital impression at the depths of said lore, and hold opinions based of out ignorance of the actual facts. (Not everyone who dislikes Tau is like that BTW, I dislike em because the aestetic doesn't appeal to me. but I understand 40k is supposed to have a wide varity of differing aestetics)

He is definitely a marry sue. Entire Imperium does nothing and then there is just this one guy who slaps greater demons out of existence for breakfast. Pull out legions of superior super soldiers out of his closet for lunch and advances whole bunch of tech for Imperium for evening. Also, he is everywhere and does everything. That is very definition of marry sue.

no a Mary sue would be universally loved, Cawl isn't. Cawl is simply a very old... I was going to say being, but thats the thing, Cawl isn't really one person anymore, he's more a gestalt. I imagine he runs around basicly absorbing peoples knowledge into himself over history.

Lore has many entries which doesn't make sense.

and lore also has enteries that make sense if you stop insisting on a black and white absolutist view of the setting.

Things which even more doesn't make sense. Writers can say that Necrons and space marines are now best buddies purging xenos together, but it won't make it a proper lore. Emperor's demons are known to murder all xenos on sight as they represent contempt, hatred, vengeance. They materialize during diplomatic conversations with Eldar and just proceeds to slaughter those knife-ears without a single word.

except thats not REALITY. 40k is more nuanced then that.

And there are far more strong willed forces in Imperium who can resist such feeble charms. The thing is, you have this entire Imperium which is nothing like an Imperium 10 thousands years ago. Things which had worked in the past, traditions, culture won't work in modern Imperium. For example, where suddenly disappeared Adeptus Mechanicus tendency to hoard knowledge? To ruthlessly test every bit of new tech to make sure that there is absolutely no way that it might go wrong? Where went all this respect for chapter's relics? Out of a window with new lore. We have to pretend that suddenly all of those things doesn't matter and everyone is fine just being completely different, because there is suddenly a new boss. Civil wars were caused for less than Guiliman did and I assume that it is only due to dire circumstances that such heretical acts were overlooked.

I don't think you Understand, Gulliman is a living saint. he's a DIVINE individual. Bjorn the Fellhanded is held in awe because he walked the stars in the same time the emperor did (and as far as I know had never even been in the same room as the emperor) Gulliman is the emperor's SON, he's talked to him, walked with him. confided in him. I'd use real life parellels except, I'm not sure there are any. Gulliman is, in the eyes of the Imperium, divinity made flesh.

There is one super-obvious one, but the rules probably preclude even referencing it.

Though I am surprised that in this new bold era of whacking you over the head and yelling 'do you get it yet?' they didn't make him look more like Russell Brand.

Ernestas wrote:

It's a good thing that they've not thrown the setting out of the window then, isn't it.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they've "ruined the setting".

Yes they did thrown an entire setting out of a window and started anew. Ever heard of Age of Sigmar?

You'll notice I never claimed they'd never done it before (and it's debatable if they even did it with AoS) - I claimed they hadn't done it with 40k.

The setting, not a setting.

And which ones have been broken? In those examples I've given above, which ones don't work according to these "rules"?

Difficulties in doing science at such level.

Such difficulties still exist. Just because Space Marines got marginally better doesn't mean the Imperium is suddenly masters of all technology.

Technology in W40k rarely benefits species as a whole. Imperium tried to improve on Emperor's work countless times.

And failed, because they didn't have Cawl (one of the ORIGINAL SPACE MARINE CREATORS!) working on it.

And guess what - the Imperium HAS improved on the "Emperor's" work many times. Mark VII and VIII power armour, Razorbacks, Centurions, new combat knife STCs (mentioned as a throwaway comment in one of the Gaunts Ghosts novels), to name but a few. Innovation IS a thing in 40k, it's just slow, hidebound, and heavily ritualised. All of which we see with Primaris Marines. While they may have popped up OOC quickly, you have to remember that they've been in the setting's narrative for over 10,000 years. That's not quick by any stretch. Consider that making Space Marines from scratch took nowhere near that time - marginally improving them, at the hands of a scientist who first created them, with near limitless authority and influence, took 10,000 years? How is that setting-breaking?

Ever heard of skinless Raven Guard marines? Ever heard of Cursed founding? Emperor's work was simply made mockery of and it contradicts internal rules of setting.

Again, "Emperor's" work - it flat out wasn't. The Primarchs and Custodes were, maybe even the Thunder Warriors. The Space Marines were not.

Also, I'd like to point out that the skinless Raven Guard was a result of Alpha Legion sabotage, and the Cursed Founding has never been properly explained.

So why Tau doesn't get their own Primaris?

Why would they?

Chaos was trying to make them for so many years, why they don't get Primaris?

They do have their own equivalents - in the lore. Fabius makes his own improved variants, but even he, master of flesh as he is, isn't one of the OG scientists who originally MADE Space Marines.

You're suggesting that a physics degree student should be as smart as Oppenheimer, simply because they study the same subject.

Why for feth sake every technologically advanced race now doesn't have their own Primaris Marines?

Because not every technologically advanced race has the equivalent of Cawl. That's like saying "why doesn't every race have daemons, Chaos do!"
Different factions have different stories. It's not hard.

Yes, you can. It's what you do with a race that is happy and peaceful that the point lies. Look at the Interex in 30k. They're pretty chill guys, and seem to genuinely want to help humanity. They get slaughtered. The Taus being nice works, because you then see how their worldview breaks down in the wider galaxy.

No, you can't. This is why there was so much hate for Tau and why they were retconed in the end.

Retcon? What retcon?

And again, Interex are still canon.

Any good faction looks out of place in Warhammer setting and is generally disliked by everyone.

Sounds like you're making a big old assumption there. You speak for the whole fanbase, do you?

Good factions which you mentioned generally get destroyed before such radical and dangerous ideas as "democracy", "human rights" and "progress" can ever take hold.

Exactly - which is what makes the Tau so unique from a story perspective! They're still around, so the audience can see what happens when progressive attitudes clash against the grimdarkness, and that conflict makes for very good stories.

After all - there's no shadow without light.

The work that Cawl did himself, you mean? After all, he is essentially the creator of the Black Carapace. Ooh, and that's without mentioning that the Emperor never actually made the Adeptus Astartes - that was led by a scientist called Amar Astarte!

This is my point about making complaints without even reading the lore - you've decided that Cawl HAS to be a mary sue, without looking at the evidence

Read The Great Work. It's got far more in there about Cawl than any other work, and dismantles practically every complaint about him.

He is definitely a marry sue.

Says the person who's literally never read the book.

Read the book, and I'll actually consider what you're saying. Right now, you're just making arguments based on things you choose to remain ignorant on.

Entire Imperium does nothing and then there is just this one guy who slaps greater demons out of existence for breakfast. Pull out legions of superior super soldiers out of his closet for lunch and advances whole bunch of tech for Imperium for evening. Also, he is everywhere and does everything. That is very definition of marry sue.

You've clearly not read any new lore aside from 1d4chan, have you?

Strange, I seem to remember there being Dark Eldar invited into the throne room by the Mechanicus back in I think 7th edition to help repair the failing Golden Throne? Where were all the complaints then?

Lore has many entries which doesn't make sense.

So where was this whole "the setting's RUINED" spiel then?

You can when a Living Saint, the Chief Librarian and Chapter Master of one of the most influential Chapters, and a Grand Master of the Grey Knights support it.

Things which even more doesn't make sense. Writers can say that Necrons and space marines are now best buddies purging xenos together, but it won't make it a proper lore. Emperor's demons are known to murder all xenos on sight as they represent contempt, hatred, vengeance. They materialize during diplomatic conversations with Eldar and just proceeds to slaughter those knife-ears without a single word.

Clearly not.

Who put you in charge of what's "proper lore" anyway? You seem to have a very very narrow view of what 40k lore actually is.

es - sacred. And who are the people considered to be sacred and holy and blessed by the Emperor - the Primarchs, Living Saints, and the Custodes? Oh, wait, those are all the people who support Guilliman's stewardship.

Guilliman's a Primarch. It's well recorded that, even IF Guilliman had no legal authority (which he does, granted by the Custodes), people would still adore him because of his transhuman aura.

And there are far more strong willed forces in Imperium who can resist such feeble charms.

Oooh, like the Custodes! Who- oh, support Guilliman.

The thing is, you have this entire Imperium which is nothing like an Imperium 10 thousands years ago. Things which had worked in the past, traditions, culture won't work in modern Imperium.

Absolutely correct - the Imperium's even MORE dogmatic and Primarch obsessed than it used to be!

Thank you for reinforcing my point.

There is no such distinction in lore. Both draw power from the warp. These is no fundamental difference between librarian and chaos sorcerer.

In some cases, there is. A Librarian, by and large, only draws power from the Warp via their own biological gifts (being born a psyker). A Sorceror, on the other hand, can be a ritualist, and without any psychic gifts, can call upon the Warp with the aid of artefacts, rituals, and invocation.

Think of it as the difference between a D&D Sorceror (the Librarian) and a Wizard/Cleric (the Sorceror). Obviously, there's also Chaos Space Marine Sorcerors who have natural psychic gifts, ex-Librarians and suchlike who now fall under the "Sorceror" bracket.

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

Yes they did thrown an entire setting out of a window and started anew. Ever heard of Age of Sigmar?

Age of Sigmar isn't warhammer 40k, no one denies they literally ditched the WFB setting. 40k didn't et that treatment, that said they have been making some changes, but thats normal. setting grow, evolve and yes.. change.

Difficulties in doing science at such level. Technology in W40k rarely benefits species as a whole. Imperium tried to improve on Emperor's work countless times. Ever heard of skinless Raven Guard marines? Ever heard of Cursed founding? Emperor's work was simply made mockery of and it contradicts internal rules of setting. Space marines are established as very effective special forces. So why Tau doesn't get their own Primaris? Chaos was trying to make them for so many years, why they don't get Primaris? Why for feth sake every technologically advanced race now doesn't have their own Primaris Marines?

this has been explained, multiple times, lemme explain it to you nice and simple in a big bold fault. Cawl was one of the scientists who developed space marines in the first p[lace, as such he has insider knowledge of the process. And Primaris Marine crafting was not an exact science. the end result is the best he could do. there where several ideas Cawl could not actually make work
Cawl isn't just some dude. he was a personal student of the emperor's.

No, you can't. This is why there was so much hate for Tau and why they were retconed in the end. Any good faction looks out of place in Warhammer setting and is generally disliked by everyone. Good factions which you mentioned generally get destroyed before such radical and dangerous ideas as "democracy", "human rights" and "progress" can ever take hold.

yet Tau ARE a popular faction. and the same people dumping on Tau are the ones dumping on Primaris Marines. People whom haven't looked beyond the inital impression at the depths of said lore, and hold opinions based of out ignorance of the actual facts. (Not everyone who dislikes Tau is like that BTW, I dislike em because the aestetic doesn't appeal to me. but I understand 40k is supposed to have a wide varity of differing aestetics)

He is definitely a marry sue. Entire Imperium does nothing and then there is just this one guy who slaps greater demons out of existence for breakfast. Pull out legions of superior super soldiers out of his closet for lunch and advances whole bunch of tech for Imperium for evening. Also, he is everywhere and does everything. That is very definition of marry sue.

no a Mary sue would be universally loved, Cawl isn't. Cawl is simply a very old... I was going to say being, but thats the thing, Cawl isn't really one person anymore, he's more a gestalt. I imagine he runs around basicly absorbing peoples knowledge into himself over history.

Lore has many entries which doesn't make sense.

and lore also has enteries that make sense if you stop insisting on a black and white absolutist view of the setting.

Things which even more doesn't make sense. Writers can say that Necrons and space marines are now best buddies purging xenos together, but it won't make it a proper lore. Emperor's demons are known to murder all xenos on sight as they represent contempt, hatred, vengeance. They materialize during diplomatic conversations with Eldar and just proceeds to slaughter those knife-ears without a single word.

except thats not REALITY. 40k is more nuanced then that.

And there are far more strong willed forces in Imperium who can resist such feeble charms. The thing is, you have this entire Imperium which is nothing like an Imperium 10 thousands years ago. Things which had worked in the past, traditions, culture won't work in modern Imperium. For example, where suddenly disappeared Adeptus Mechanicus tendency to hoard knowledge? To ruthlessly test every bit of new tech to make sure that there is absolutely no way that it might go wrong? Where went all this respect for chapter's relics? Out of a window with new lore. We have to pretend that suddenly all of those things doesn't matter and everyone is fine just being completely different, because there is suddenly a new boss. Civil wars were caused for less than Guiliman did and I assume that it is only due to dire circumstances that such heretical acts were overlooked.

I don't think you Understand, Gulliman is a living saint. he's a DIVINE individual. Bjorn the Fellhanded is held in awe because he walked the stars in the same time the emperor did (and as far as I know had never even been in the same room as the emperor) Gulliman is the emperor's SON, he's talked to him, walked with him. confided in him. I'd use real life parellels except, I'm not sure there are any. Gulliman is, in the eyes of the Imperium, divinity made flesh.

Fine points, agreed on all fronts.

So many of the arguments against Guilliman, Cawl, Primaris etc etc come from a place of sheer ignorance and narrow interpretation of the setting. If people actually took a bit of time to open their horizons and read a book with new material in, they'd probably find that things really haven't changed tonally. And, honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with someone if they actually admitted "I don't really care to read the new stuff, so I'm probably out of the loop, but this is what I know", because they're at least admitting that they're not working with the actual background. It's when you get someone saying "this is the REAL lore, I'm well informed about what the REAL lore is", and they've barely read anything beyond 1d4chan, that's just confusing.

Why make comments about 40k background if you don't actually read it?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

So many of the arguments against Guilliman, Cawl, Primaris etc etc come from a place of sheer ignorance and narrow interpretation of the setting. If people actually took a bit of time to open their horizons and read a book with new material in, they'd probably find that things really haven't changed tonally. And, honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with someone if they actually admitted "I don't really care to read the new stuff, so I'm probably out of the loop, but this is what I know", because they're at least admitting that they're not working with the actual background. It's when you get someone saying "this is the REAL lore, I'm well informed about what the REAL lore is", and they've barely read anything beyond 1d4chan, that's just confusing.

The surface presentation of it is such a turn off I have little interest in reading about how they justify it. And what I have read gets rates from "meh" to "boo".

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

So many of the arguments against Guilliman, Cawl, Primaris etc etc come from a place of sheer ignorance and narrow interpretation of the setting. If people actually took a bit of time to open their horizons and read a book with new material in, they'd probably find that things really haven't changed tonally. And, honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with someone if they actually admitted "I don't really care to read the new stuff, so I'm probably out of the loop, but this is what I know", because they're at least admitting that they're not working with the actual background. It's when you get someone saying "this is the REAL lore, I'm well informed about what the REAL lore is", and they've barely read anything beyond 1d4chan, that's just confusing.

The surface presentation of it is such a turn off I have little interest in reading about how they justify it.

At least you admit you haven't read it.

All the same, I am sorry for your loss, but how you spend your time is up to you, and it'd be wrong to expect people to have to stay up-to-speed.

And what I have read gets rates from "meh" to "boo".

Which bits?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I am sorry for your loss,

I'm sorry for the loss of the setting.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
but how you spend your time is up to you, and it'd be wrong to expect people to have to stay up-to-speed.

And what I have read gets rates from "meh" to "boo".

Which bits?

Guilliman awakening = boo
Primaris = boo
Cawl = boo
Marneus Calgar and pals "crossing the rubicon" = boo
Cicatrix Maledictum = meh
Magnus and Mortarian being around = yay (they always were, really)

I agree. I have tried reading some of the new stuff, but I did not like it, and the surface level facts of what happened are not appealing to me at all.

But that is fine, because I still have a wealth of background material from the old days to enjoy, and I feel freed from paying attention to what the "real" background is to make my own stuff that I like a lot better.

I wish the changes in the new Imperium did not boil down to so few exceptional characters, I suppose is my main problem with the new background. I would much prefer it if they had advanced the timeline without basing it around a few people as they have done. I like 40K as a setting, not as a story.

But the new stuff does not have to diminish my enjoyment of the old, and if people get something out of it, I am all for it.

Cawl is also not a single being.

The Great Work (novel) clearly illustrates that Cawl is more a gestalt of many, many scientists. Most, but not all, Adeptus Mechanicus and Mechanicum.

It’s also possible he has more than a single body, with back up consciousnesses should he suffer normally fatal damage.

Let’s also face facts. Space Marines as we knew them during The Heresy and up to Guilliman’s return were a rush job. The Emperor salvaging what he could following the abduction of The Primarchs, in what time he had.

See, it’s clear by the pace at which the Great Crusade was readied that The Emperor must’ve had foreknowledge the Warp Storms were about to clear. Because when they did, He and His Legions were ready to go.

I mean, compare to a Primarch, an actual Astartes are but the poorest of copies. Like stick men compared to the Mona Lisa.

Think about it. He started out with Thunder Warriors. They served their purpose, and were replaced. Do you really think he was ever going to stop with the Space Marines as we knew them? I say thee nay. That was very likely never the plan.

Now, look at the organ’s Cawl added to the Primaris. I for one don’t believe for a second he came up with them by himself.

Instead, it’s far, far more likely that Cawl, either through working on the original project, or by Guilliman’s Command, had access to The Emperor’s, well, notebook. Concepts and how-to’s of the organs that would’ve been included from the get-go, had time allowed.

The trouble is, as mentioned at the start of this ramble, Cawl is not a single consciousness. And even in The Great Work, it’s not made at all clear if the man chosen to work on the Astartes project was Cawl in the first place, or just another mind melded to Cawl. Especially as another Genetor Biologis tried to take over Cawl’s body.

He also has separate personality copies working on different projects. So many, he doesn’t remember what he’s working on. We don’t know if his laboratory on Mars includes any part of The Emperor’s own gubbins, or if Cawl built it from scratch.

TL/DR? There’s more to Cawl than those that haven’t read the background might think. Dude is a gestalt consciousness. Who knows how many minds he’s absorbed into the whole.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

TL/DR? There’s more to Cawl than those that haven’t read the background might think. Dude is a gestalt consciousness. Who knows how many minds he’s absorbed into the whole.

Which is all kinda cool in concept, etc. with some nice sci-fi underpinnings.

The problem is that I'm already invested in the setting and the army. I love the setting of 40K, there's so much opportunity there, and all the vastness of the galaxy could be explored and many great stories told.

Buuuutttt. . . Cawl, Guilliman etc. feel hamfisted and awkward, and they change some fundamental things about the 40K setting (and game). Heroes coming back from the dead are not something I want in the universe. and they change Space Marines, which are the core/primary faction that many people are invested in. "The army that you have collected for decades is being replaced en masse."

It might be ok as a stand alone sci-fi story, the problem is that Cawl is so plainly a way to sell new Space Marine models. It's gratuitous.

Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I am sorry for your loss,

I'm sorry for the loss of the setting.

I see no loss myself. No need to apologise save for your own enjoyment.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
but how you spend your time is up to you, and it'd be wrong to expect people to have to stay up-to-speed.

And what I have read gets rates from "meh" to "boo".

Which bits?

Guilliman awakening = boo

Eh, I'm fine with it. He was one the Primarchs who was well established to be able to return (Lion, Khan, Corax, Vulkan, Russ, even Dorn also fit this), and actually brought something interesting to the setting - a higher up character opposed to the state of the Imperium, and, more crucially, unable to change it. It hardly swings the balance of power (yanno, what with literally every other faction gaining more power as well) that one guy just happens to be big and strong and powerful. He's one guy. And honestly, the whole "GW only focuses on these few characters", I can see that point, but it's not an excuse not to make your own stories. GW's always had named characters doing things, ones leading crusades and big battlefields: Guilliman isn't doing anything someone like Ghazghskull or Abaddon or Calgar or Dante hasn't donel, regarding narrative focus. Nothing stops anyone from making their own subsectors and warzones.

Primaris = boo

The concept, or the execution in universe? Concept, well, that's a personal thing. Execution within universe? When you actually really Primaris lore, it's completely fine.

Cawl = boo

Why? He's a 10,000 year old multi-consciousness scientist, who is the last surviving (to our knowledge) scientist of the Space Marine project. I'd think he knows a thing or two more than anyone else on how to make a Space Marine.

Marneus Calgar and pals "crossing the rubicon" = boo

Why? Gives them a new model, and serves as a narrative device too - Primaris were distrusted in universe (omg - looks like everyone saying that everyone just happily accepted the Primaris no questions asked were wrong about that!), and so many leaders became Primaris Marines in order to bridge the gap between the two generations.
Story conflict -----> Resolution. It's got actual narrative beats.

Cicatrix Maledictum = meh

Why meh? It's functionally another Eye of Terror, and provides a lot of story hooks. It reinforces the idea of Chaos actually holding territory, instead of always invading, providing opportunities for Imperial and xenos forces to invade Chaos territory (something that rarely happens in most narratives), allows for isolationist scenarios (Spears of the Emperor) and actually has the Imperium lose meaningful space!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Cawl is also not a single being.

Spoiler:

The Great Work (novel) clearly illustrates that Cawl is more a gestalt of many, many scientists. Most, but not all, Adeptus Mechanicus and Mechanicum.

It’s also possible he has more than a single body, with back up consciousnesses should he suffer normally fatal damage.

Let’s also face facts. Space Marines as we knew them during The Heresy and up to Guilliman’s return were a rush job. The Emperor salvaging what he could following the abduction of The Primarchs, in what time he had.

See, it’s clear by the pace at which the Great Crusade was readied that The Emperor must’ve had foreknowledge the Warp Storms were about to clear. Because when they did, He and His Legions were ready to go.

I mean, compare to a Primarch, an actual Astartes are but the poorest of copies. Like stick men compared to the Mona Lisa.

Think about it. He started out with Thunder Warriors. They served their purpose, and were replaced. Do you really think he was ever going to stop with the Space Marines as we knew them? I say thee nay. That was very likely never the plan.

Now, look at the organ’s Cawl added to the Primaris. I for one don’t believe for a second he came up with them by himself.

Instead, it’s far, far more likely that Cawl, either through working on the original project, or by Guilliman’s Command, had access to The Emperor’s, well, notebook. Concepts and how-to’s of the organs that would’ve been included from the get-go, had time allowed.

The trouble is, as mentioned at the start of this ramble, Cawl is not a single consciousness. And even in The Great Work, it’s not made at all clear if the man chosen to work on the Astartes project was Cawl in the first place, or just another mind melded to Cawl. Especially as another Genetor Biologis tried to take over Cawl’s body.

He also has separate personality copies working on different projects. So many, he doesn’t remember what he’s working on. We don’t know if his laboratory on Mars includes any part of The Emperor’s own gubbins, or if Cawl built it from scratch.

TL/DR? There’s more to Cawl than those that haven’t read the background might think. Dude is a gestalt consciousness. Who knows how many minds he’s absorbed into the whole.

Yup, absolutely correct! Not that it'll persuade people who've already decided that Cawl's a mary sue.

The requirement for and focus on individual characters to drive the setting is shrinking it.

Previously, characters existed and the setting didn't care. It's actually a pretty unique literary feat to create dozens of characters and have none of them be central to the narrative.

The imperium chews up and spits out a thousand Marbos, calgars, arjac rockfists every day. Because everybody dies and 3verything is lethal. In a setting like 40k, named character survival is entirely plot armour/author fiat, tenuously representing pure probability. The thing is that skill can't save you from a barrage or a bullet. No matter how great Calgar is, he's still only one Bullet through the brain away from being as dead as any other marine. He's not tougher or faster, he can't dodge bullets or repell them.

But they're now trying to pull these characters in as if they are protagonists for the galaxy, rather than people existing and dying in it.


I don't have a huge issue with cawl per se, but he is too important to the narrative. The narrative has been built around him. And his story came out of nowhere. There was no build up or hint dropping, or ambiguous lore that you can draw from.


As for Mary Sue - one of the hallmarks is their drawbacks not actually having any real negative effect (no matter what the story might say the effect is - it's not born out by the action) and often they end up being backdoor strengths. From my observations, cawl seems to have these.

Hellebore wrote:
The requirement for and focus on individual characters to drive the setting is shrinking it.

Previously, characters existed and the setting didn't care. It's actually a pretty unique literary feat to create dozens of characters and have none of them be central to the narrative.

The imperium chews up and spits out a thousand Marbos, calgars, arjac rockfists every day. Because everybody dies and 3verything is lethal. In a setting like 40k, named character survival is entirely plot armour/author fiat, tenuously representing pure probability. The thing is that skill can't save you from a barrage or a bullet. No matter how great Calgar is, he's still only one Bullet through the brain away from being as dead as any other marine. He's not tougher or faster, he can't dodge bullets or repell them.

But they're now trying to pull these characters in as if they are protagonists for the galaxy, rather than people existing and dying in it.


I don't have a huge issue with cawl per se, but he is too important to the narrative. The narrative has been built around him. And his story came out of nowhere. There was no build up or hint dropping, or ambiguous lore that you can draw from.

100%

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Story conflict -----> Resolution. It's got actual narrative beats.

"Actual narrative beats" does not a good story make.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Cicatrix Maledictum = meh

Why meh? It's functionally another Eye of Terror, and provides a lot of story hooks. It reinforces the idea of Chaos actually holding territory, instead of always invading, providing opportunities for Imperial and xenos forces to invade Chaos territory (something that rarely happens in most narratives), allows for isolationist scenarios (Spears of the Emperor) and actually has the Imperium lose meaningful space!

You don't need the Cicatrix Maledictum to tell that story. You could easily tell those stories without it. Warp storms happen in 40K all the time.

This is the problem with the way scale is understood. A galaxy, is ****ing BIG. Whatever story you want too tell, there was already plenty of room for it. That was the whole damn point.

Hellebore wrote:
The requirement for and focus on individual characters to drive the setting is shrinking it.

Previously, characters existed and the setting didn't care. It's actually a pretty unique literary feat to create dozens of characters and have none of them be central to the narrative.

The imperium chews up and spits out a thousand Marbos, calgars, arjac rockfists every day. Because everybody dies and 3verything is lethal. In a setting like 40k, named character survival is entirely plot armour/author fiat, tenuously representing pure probability. The thing is that skill can't save you from a barrage or a bullet. No matter how great Calgar is, he's still only one Bullet through the brain away from being as dead as any other marine. He's not tougher or faster, he can't dodge bullets or repell them.

But they're now trying to pull these characters in as if they are protagonists for the galaxy, rather than people existing and dying in it.


I don't have a huge issue with cawl per se, but he is too important to the narrative. The narrative has been built around him. And his story came out of nowhere. There was no build up or hint dropping, or ambiguous lore that you can draw from.


As for Mary Sue - one of the hallmarks is their drawbacks not actually having any real negative effect (no matter what the story might say the effect is - it's not born out by the action) and often they end up being backdoor strengths. From my observations, cawl seems to have these.

Well said! Exalted. This is why I said 'Primarchs', they're the sort of absolute expression of this. Super protagonist who warp the whole setting to be about them.

Hellebore wrote:
The requirement for and focus on individual characters to drive the setting is shrinking it.

Previously, characters existed and the setting didn't care. It's actually a pretty unique literary feat to create dozens of characters and have none of them be central to the narrative.

The imperium chews up and spits out a thousand Marbos, calgars, arjac rockfists every day. Because everybody dies and 3verything is lethal. In a setting like 40k, named character survival is entirely plot armour/author fiat, tenuously representing pure probability. The thing is that skill can't save you from a barrage or a bullet. No matter how great Calgar is, he's still only one Bullet through the brain away from being as dead as any other marine. He's not tougher or faster, he can't dodge bullets or repell them.

But they're now trying to pull these characters in as if they are protagonists for the galaxy, rather than people existing and dying in it.


I don't have a huge issue with cawl per se, but he is too important to the narrative. The narrative has been built around him. And his story came out of nowhere. There was no build up or hint dropping, or ambiguous lore that you can draw from.


As for Mary Sue - one of the hallmarks is their drawbacks not actually having any real negative effect (no matter what the story might say the effect is - it's not born out by the action) and often they end up being backdoor strengths. From my observations, cawl seems to have these.

Well said.

I feel like having all these special characters being focus of factions has limited creativity & customisation options ingame.
I can no longer have ma dude with loadout xyz because there are 2-3 special characters competing for his slot that need to sell..

Hellebore wrote:Previously, characters existed and the setting didn't care. It's actually a pretty unique literary feat to create dozens of characters and have none of them be central to the narrative.

I don't know, characters like Abaddon, Yarrick, Thraka, Dante and so on have had their own central narratives (Armageddon, anyone?)

I don't have a huge issue with cawl per se, ... his story came out of nowhere. There was no build up or hint dropping, or ambiguous lore that you can draw from.

This is the point I'll concede against Cawl. It came out of nowhere from a OOC perspective, but that's something I'm happy to overlook IRL, because it works in universe.

After all, everything has to have a start!

As for Mary Sue - one of the hallmarks is their drawbacks not actually having any real negative effect (no matter what the story might say the effect is - it's not born out by the action) and often they end up being backdoor strengths. From my observations, cawl seems to have these.

Cawl is distrusted by pretty much everyone - he would never be accepted into the role of Fabricator General (not that he wants it - but his AI counterpart does, which presents a potential for conflict), Guilliman outright admits he holds Cawl at an arm's length. Besides, by that definition of mary suedom, wouldn't most 40k characters be mary sues? Farsight, Abaddon, Vect, etc etc.

Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Story conflict -----> Resolution. It's got actual narrative beats.

"Actual narrative beats" does not a good story make.

Disagreed on that.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Cicatrix Maledictum = meh

Why meh? It's functionally another Eye of Terror, and provides a lot of story hooks. It reinforces the idea of Chaos actually holding territory, instead of always invading, providing opportunities for Imperial and xenos forces to invade Chaos territory (something that rarely happens in most narratives), allows for isolationist scenarios (Spears of the Emperor) and actually has the Imperium lose meaningful space!

You don't need the Cicatrix Maledictum to tell that story. You could easily tell those stories without it. Warp storms happen in 40K all the time.

You *could*. But it doesn't hurt to have them in it, and provide new locations and strategic plot hooks (Vigilus, Sangua Terra, Nachmund Gauntlet). By that idea of "Warp Storms happen all the time", why have the Eye of Terror at all?

This is the problem with the way scale is understood. A galaxy, is ****ing BIG. Whatever story you want too tell, there was already plenty of room for it. That was the whole damn point.

And you still can. Nothing's changed.

The sandbox exists, but now some more toys have been thrown in if you want some fresh ideas. If you don't, don't play with those toys.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Story conflict -----> Resolution. It's got actual narrative beats.

"Actual narrative beats" does not a good story make.

Disagreed on that.

Then you have an extremely low bar.

One thing I've heard tossed around is that "Ohh Gulliman is everywhere" which is complete nonsense. Gulliman wasn't at Vigilus (even though narrativly it would have made sense for him to be there, the Ultramarines where presdent, it was a massivly important world, Abaddon had shown up) he wasn't in F&F, so no he's not "everywhere" Hell, the TRAITOR PRIMARCHS have shown up more often then he has. Magus has shown up in 3 major events now.

Hellebore wrote:
The requirement for and focus on individual characters to drive the setting is shrinking it.

Previously, characters existed and the setting didn't care. It's actually a pretty unique literary feat to create dozens of characters and have none of them be central to the narrative.

The imperium chews up and spits out a thousand Marbos, calgars, arjac rockfists every day. Because everybody dies and 3verything is lethal. In a setting like 40k, named character survival is entirely plot armour/author fiat, tenuously representing pure probability. The thing is that skill can't save you from a barrage or a bullet. No matter how great Calgar is, he's still only one Bullet through the brain away from being as dead as any other marine. He's not tougher or faster, he can't dodge bullets or repell them.

But they're now trying to pull these characters in as if they are protagonists for the galaxy, rather than people existing and dying in it.


I don't have a huge issue with cawl per se, but he is too important to the narrative. The narrative has been built around him. And his story came out of nowhere. There was no build up or hint dropping, or ambiguous lore that you can draw from.


As for Mary Sue - one of the hallmarks is their drawbacks not actually having any real negative effect (no matter what the story might say the effect is - it's not born out by the action) and often they end up being backdoor strengths. From my observations, cawl seems to have these.

Think this pretty much nailed it. Unless you literaly break the rules of reality as is the case with some chaos followers (Lucian being the obvious example) or do the Eldar thing where the suit preserves the identities then your life should be cheap. As an example on how to do this properly look to Yarrick. He has been close to death on many occasions, losing his arm, eye and actually only being alive because Ghazkull decided he liked to keep it that way. Everything just feels... smaller when you have all theese superheroes that kick ass and stay alive just because.

Yeah, 40k doesn't feel as dark as it used to. Its becoming less like berserk and more like DBZ. In a year or so they'll bring back the Emperor and give him the ability to go super psyker blue.

 Da Boss wrote:
One piece? That is difficult. If I had to choose, I think it would definitely be the confirmation that the Emperor is "alive" and sentient on the Golden Throne. The ambiguity about whether the entire Imperium was worshipping a literal corpse god was one of the cooler things in the setting.

That's where I left off - when it was ambiguous. I assumed the Emperor was long dead and the golden throne + dead psykers did the rest. Clearly I missed a piece of major modern lore, so - even though I am sure I'm not going to like the answer to what I am about to ask - what did I miss?

Guilleman went and had a conversation with the Emperor on the Golden Throne. He found out that the Emperor does not love him, or the rest of humanity, but coldly sees them as tools, and then lied to everyone about it for the sake of the Imperium, but he was sad about it.

 Ouze wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
One piece? That is difficult. If I had to choose, I think it would definitely be the confirmation that the Emperor is "alive" and sentient on the Golden Throne. The ambiguity about whether the entire Imperium was worshipping a literal corpse god was one of the cooler things in the setting.

That's where I left off - when it was ambiguous. I assumed the Emperor was long dead and the golden throne + dead psykers did the rest. Clearly I missed a piece of major modern lore, so - even though I am sure I'm not going to like the answer to what I am about to ask - what did I miss?

I never saw ambiguity about it honestly.

 Da Boss wrote:
Guilleman went and had a conversation with the Emperor on the Golden Throne. He found out that the Emperor does not love him, or the rest of humanity, but coldly sees them as tools, and then lied to everyone about it for the sake of the Imperium, but he was sad about it.

Which, arguably, is further reinforcement of the grimdark setting and how Guilliman's return doesn't really change all that much.

We have a character who is one of the most well meaning and stereotypically "good" characters in the setting, compromising on everything they believe, their own morals and sense of honour, to give a little bit of false hope to the people in the empire he's unintentionally inherited, further boosting the influence of his biggest political rival, keeping the Imperium reliant on theocracy and dogma.

Similarly, their own faith in the ruler of his empire, and own father, has been irrevocably shaken, and his own self-identity has just undergone an existential crisis (in that he's well aware he only exists as a tool, not a person).
And yet, they must ignore all of that to keep humanity alive for a little longer, and buy into the myth he knows is a fake.

That is nothing if not grimdark.

The charge that the setting now revolves around a few characters always rings hollow.
Guilliman and Cawl are usually the prime targets for the accusation, but if you read the newer fluff you'll see they're only directly involved in a handful of events.
Guilliman has been tied up in the Plague war narrative from the beginning of the edition, and Cawl hasn't been up to much either.
They ushered in the Primaris, but that shouldn't be taken as them now being the "main characters."

Animus wrote:
The charge that the setting now revolves around a few characters always rings hollow.
Guilliman and Cawl are usually the prime targets for the accusation, but if you read the newer fluff you'll see they're only directly involved in a handful of events.
Guilliman has been tied up in the Plague war narrative from the beginning of the edition, and Cawl hasn't been up to much either.
They ushered in the Primaris, but that shouldn't be taken as them now being the "main characters."

This - how much stuff was Calgar in prior to Guilliman outranking him?
Ichar IV, Damnos, 2nd Armageddon War, Tyrannic Wars, Vigilus,Iron Warrior invasion of Ultramar, to name but a few.

In fact, whenever practically ANY of the first founding Chapters have gone to battle, hasn't one of their special characters been present?
Damocles Crusade/Aggrellan Campaign - Sicarius, Shrike, Khan, even Farsight, Aun'Va, Shadowsun, and Darkstrider.
Armageddon - Tu'Shan, Helbrecht, Grimaldus, Tycho, Ghazzy, Wazdakka, Yarrick, Nazdreg (doesn't Belial even show up in the prelude, on Piscina?)
Not even going to begin with the 13th Black Crusade, way way WAY too many named characters there.

Basically, named characters have always popped up a lot. It's never stopped you from doing things with your guys. When the Black Crusades were going down, my guys were in their own subsector, doing something completely unrelated, because who cares what the published story events are?

Calgar didn't conjure up Primaris out of nowhere, or talk to the Emperor, or unleash Custodes. Nor is Calgar a returning Primarch, and all the baggage that brings with it.

Calgar showed up to some battles, because that's what Chapter Masters do. Calgar is one of a thousand Chapter Masters, and a template for your own Chapter characters.

Guilliman is not a template, he is an individual who has played a significant role in heralding sweeping changes to the landscape of the setting.

Even when Calgar was involved in something significant (like the Tyranid invasion of Macragge/Ultramar) the conflict remained localized. The effect is that you have dramatic events that still, on the galactic scale, are effectively tiny. The setting of 40K doesn't change.

And yeah, even then I'd say that stories about specific characters were overused.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Calgar didn't conjure up Primaris out of nowhere, or talk to the Emperor, or unleash Custodes.

In-universe, Primaris are completely justified. You have a problem with GW springing them up from nowhere, which I appreciate, but is a different thing.
Talking to divinity is hardly new. Hence we have prophets of certain gods (Thraka), chosen ones of the gods (Abaddon) or living avatars empowered by them (Celestine).
Custodes should always have been present. In fact, I'm fairly sure the Custodes codex makes mention of Custodes actually have been active, but not in force.

Nor is Calgar a returning Primarch, and all the baggage that brings with it.

That's just a Primarch issue though, not a "the universe revolves around Guilliman" issue.

Calgar showed up to some battles, because that's what Chapter Masters do. Calgar is one of a thousand Chapter Masters, and a template for your own Chapter characters.

And what about Thraka, chosen prophet of Gork and Mork? What about Farsight? Aun'Va? Vect? Abaddon?

I appreciate that Calgar is "just" a Chapter Master, but there's plenty of named characters out there who are essentially identical in equivalent rank to Guilliman, who've been around far far longer.

Guilliman is not a template, he is an individual who has played a significant role in heralding sweeping changes to the landscape of the setting.

Like Abaddon then? Uniting the armies of Chaos to his banner, leading setting-wide Chaos incursions and iconic crusade after crusade? Or Thraka, similarly uniting thousands upon thousands of Waaaagh!s to his own, and creating one of the largest battlezones in the setting?

Admit it - the only reason you're fine with these ones is because they've been around longer, and the sticker shock of Guilliman still hasn't worn off.
New fans to the setting will come in and be like "oh, Guilliman and Abaddon are both figureheads of large armies, Imperium and Chaos respectively", and that'll be that.

Even when Calgar was involved in something significant (like the Tyranid invasion of Macragge/Ultramar) the conflict remained localized. The effect is that you have dramatic events that still, on the galactic scale, are effectively tiny. The setting of 40K doesn't change.

But the Black Crusades and Armageddon weren't tiny at all on the galactic stage. Things like the Damocles Crusade and Aggrellan Campaigns were still pretty large in their own right as well.

And yeah, even then I'd say that stories about specific characters were overused.

Well, that's been a thing for decades now - not a new thing. And, for decades still, people have made their own characters, their own backgrounds, and their own events.
This will not change.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Animus wrote:
The charge that the setting now revolves around a few characters always rings hollow.
Guilliman and Cawl are usually the prime targets for the accusation, but if you read the newer fluff you'll see they're only directly involved in a handful of events.
Guilliman has been tied up in the Plague war narrative from the beginning of the edition, and Cawl hasn't been up to much either.
They ushered in the Primaris, but that shouldn't be taken as them now being the "main characters."

This - how much stuff was Calgar in prior to Guilliman outranking him?
Ichar IV, Damnos, 2nd Armageddon War, Tyrannic Wars, Vigilus,Iron Warrior invasion of Ultramar, to name but a few.

In fact, whenever practically ANY of the first founding Chapters have gone to battle, hasn't one of their special characters been present?
Damocles Crusade/Aggrellan Campaign - Sicarius, Shrike, Khan, even Farsight, Aun'Va, Shadowsun, and Darkstrider.
Armageddon - Tu'Shan, Helbrecht, Grimaldus, Tycho, Ghazzy, Wazdakka, Yarrick, Nazdreg (doesn't Belial even show up in the prelude, on Piscina?)
Not even going to begin with the 13th Black Crusade, way way WAY too many named characters there.

Basically, named characters have always popped up a lot. It's never stopped you from doing things with your guys. When the Black Crusades were going down, my guys were in their own subsector, doing something completely unrelated, because who cares what the published story events are?

I certainly didn't claim it's only suddenly happened. in fact, you can go back 10 years on warseer to find my comments on Matt Ward's writing during 5th ed and how I said this was a conscious effort to mAke the game more character centric. He created draigo and the sanguinor as totally OTT characters who seemed to be suddenly IMPORTANT (TM).he elevated Calgar to one punch marn and Worfed avatars for the next 10 years.

It has only continued since then. The current (specifically imperial but also Eldar) characters are now at the Centre of the Warhammer 40,000 narrative as a whole, rather than being Heroes of specific instances in the overall tapestry of the galaxy.

Yarrick was the hero of Hades hive - but there are a thousand heroes of a thousand hives across the galaxy. Armageddon is just one of many battlezones. What happens there has little impact on the galaxy at large. Draigo caused issues that cawl and guilliman haven't because he effectively attacked the metaphysics of 40k itself, which is not a smart or clever thing to do. I have a whole rant about how terrible a design choice he was. I actually stepped back from 40k at that point because I really didn't like where it was going.

Even Abaddons black crusades have had no real affect on the galaxy - until now. They were huge invasions and caused massive wars but "the galaxy is a big place and no matter what happens, you will not be missed". The galaxy of 40k didn't fundamentally swing on abaddon's actions.

I think much of this can be attributed to the success of the Horus heresy series. GW saw how much Warhammer 40k: protagonist division was popular with the weight of the entire galaxy hanging on the supershoulders of a few and thought maybe they could replicate it in 40k.


But in the end, we now have galactic consequences hanging on to the decisions of a few characters.

Before now the closest characters in 40k that had that affect are postumous - macharius actually reshaped the galaxy to some extent. But it fell apart after Alexander died.

Now we have characters who have reshaped their own faction to the point it appears in models rather than just in text. Now the universe is smaller and the deeds larger that it isn't a setting anymore. There is now a narrative with protagonists who determine the outcomes of the galaxy.

Suddenly, you WILL be missed.

Ok Smudge, how did Armageddon dramatically change the setting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hellebore wrote:

I certainly didn't claim it's only suddenly happened. in fact, you can go back 10 years on warseer to find my comments on Matt Ward's writing during 5th ed and how I said this was a conscious effort to mAke the game more character centric. He created draigo and the sanguinor as totally OTT characters who seemed to be suddenly IMPORTANT (TM).he elevated Calgar to one punch marn and Worfed avatars for the next 10 years.

I used to argue with you around those issues too . I'm still ok with the rough events of the Calgar story. But you were 100% right about the "character elevation" trend.

Hellebore wrote:I certainly didn't claim it's only suddenly happened. in fact, you can go back 10 years on warseer to find my comments on Matt Ward's writing during 5th ed and how I said this was a conscious effort to mAke the game more character centric. He created draigo and the sanguinor as totally OTT characters who seemed to be suddenly IMPORTANT (TM).he elevated Calgar to one punch marn and Worfed avatars for the next 10 years.

In which case, I respect your committment and consistency.

I maintain that having certain characters do awesome things and have stories written about them shouldn't stop anyone creating their own stories and characters and narratives, and I don't think the game is character "centric". Are there "canon" characters? Yes. Are they important? To varying degrees, yes. Does that stop you having your own? No.

It has only continued since then. The current (specifically imperial but also Eldar) characters are now at the Centre of the Warhammer 40,000 narrative as a whole, rather than being Heroes of specific instances in the overall tapestry of the galaxy.

Yarrick was the hero of Hades hive - but there are a thousand heroes of a thousand hives across the galaxy. Armageddon is just one of many battlezones. What happens there has little impact on the galaxy at large.

Well, except that Armageddon was a pretty critical production location, occupied a powerful strategic location, and both sides had pretty much thrown so much into the battle that whoever "lost" would lose hard.
Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.
Imperium lose Armageddon? Orks now occupy a powerful strategic location, the morale and material loss is massive, and the Orks are further emboldened.

Arguably, Armageddon is only so important because people in-universe made it symbolically important, but isn't that just the most 40k thing ever?

TL;DR - Armageddon isn't just any other Hive World. It's a great example of what *can* happen, but it's certainly significant and unique, and has real ramifications for both sides.

Draigo caused issues that cawl and guilliman haven't because he effectively attacked the metaphysics of 40k itself, which is not a smart or clever thing to do.

In all fairness, doesn't Draigo literally fail at causing any kind of damage or change? By all means, I'm of the opinion that Draigo should be unable to cause any proper damage to the Chaos Gods - but he doesn't. He destroys things, sure, but they always get repaired, and the damage is undone. It's a Sisyphean task.

Even Abaddons black crusades have had no real affect on the galaxy - until now. They were huge invasions and caused massive wars but "the galaxy is a big place and no matter what happens, you will not be missed". The galaxy of 40k didn't fundamentally swing on abaddon's actions.

I'd argue that it definitely did (causing the founding of several Astartes chapters, diverting and raising millions of regiments of Guardsmen, and the very creation of the Cadians, GW's flagship regiment). The whole "you will not be missed" is still true. It's still a big place, and you will still be missed... but there's always been exceptions. The moment GW named ANY of their characters and had them be recurring, they could be "missed".

But in the end, we now have galactic consequences hanging on to the decisions of a few characters.

Before now the closest characters in 40k that had that affect are postumous - macharius actually reshaped the galaxy to some extent. But it fell apart after Alexander died.

Now we have characters who have reshaped their own faction to the point it appears in models rather than just in text. Now the universe is smaller and the deeds larger that it isn't a setting anymore. There is now a narrative with protagonists who determine the outcomes of the galaxy.

Again, been the case for decades. Not that it's been stopping anyone from doing their own campaigns.

Suddenly, you WILL be missed.

What does "missed" really even mean? In universe? Obviously not, there's plenty of cases where the loss of a character has caused massive shockwaves in pretty integral lore (the Emperor and Horus, Goge Vandire, any martyred character, Macharius, etc etc). Important in the definition of whole factions? Yes also (Emperor/Horus, Vect, Sebastian Thor, etc etc). Out of universe? Obviously so.
So, what does "you will not be missed" mean?

Insectum7 wrote:Ok Smudge, how did Armageddon dramatically change the setting?

What do you mean by "setting"?
Do you mean how does Armageddon matter in universe? It's a symbolic and strategic hotspot, with the potential to both cripple and embolden massive portions of the Orks or Imperium respectively.
Do you mean what does it matter out-of-universe? It works as a commentary of the Imperium and the Ork's similarities and methods of pursuing warfare (aka, throwing ever larger numbers into a meatgrinder which will either break or bolster the side that wins).

I don't see Primaris or Guilliman or the Great Rift as dramatic changes to the setting, because Primaris Marines are basically just Space Marines, with a fresh coat of paint. They don't add much, they don't change much that we already didn't know - the Imperium can innovate and create some truly magnificently deadly weapons of war and genetically engineered super soldiers, but they require a lot of time and material investment. Primaris took 10,000 years to develop, and are no easier to make than normal Marines.

Guilliman is, for all intents and purposes, a big Chapter Master, who just happens to outrank the other ones. He's not made big sweeping changes that have made the Imperium of M41 any different to M42.

The Great Rift is just a line drawn on a map that had no scale to begin with. Just like before, there's enough room on the map for everyone.

As I said above, the sandbox never changed. People threw more toys in there, but there's still enough room for you.