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2020/02/10 05:42:19
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Charistoph wrote: In terms of the universe, Armageddon was one of many large wars. If lost, the ramifications could have ballooned outward to a devastating affect throughout a sector of space, but there were many of those in that millenium, and hardly alone in that front.
One of many, but was still exceptional, in much the same way that Cadia or Terra are exceptional worlds.
What makes Armageddon exceptional is the varied forces brought to bear on it. Macragge is probably even more important, over all, yet we do not have a campaign book for it because it is pretty much just "Nids vs Ultramarines (no matter what their armor colors were).
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2020/02/10 11:55:00
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2020/02/10 13:37:14
Subject: Re:What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Who cares if 32000 worlds are like Armageddon (although I disagree with that notion, seeing as you're basing that off of the idea that Armageddon is like a normal Hive World) - we hear about Armageddon, not those 32000 worlds.
That is a truly irrational claim. That's the sort of reasoning that puts Earth in the center of the universe in ancient cosmological maps.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
You're being humano-centric.
This bring us to your next problem, which is the fact that Armageddon also comes under threat because of the Great Rift. Daemons are spilling out and warring over the surface of the planet. So even if Armageddon is so truly important, Armageddon is one of many thousands of worlds terrorized by the Cicatrix Maledictum.
Which means in addition to attempting to argue the equation 1 >= 3,200
You're also attempting to claim Armageddon >= Armageddon+Terra+Mordia+Macragge+Baal, plus dozens of other worlds named in the 8th Ed. rule book. Which is also plainly irrational.
As for "humano-centricism", the Great Rift has a greater impact on more factions than Armageddon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DalekCheese wrote: Please can we stop talking about Armageddon? P l e a s e
We're just about there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/10 17:31:20
Who cares if 32000 worlds are like Armageddon (although I disagree with that notion, seeing as you're basing that off of the idea that Armageddon is like a normal Hive World) - we hear about Armageddon, not those 32000 worlds.
That is a truly irrational claim. That's the sort of reasoning that puts Earth in the center of the universe in ancient cosmological maps.
This is a fictional universe. Not a real, physical entity.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
You're being humano-centric.
This bring us to your next problem, which is the fact that Armageddon also comes under threat because of the Great Rift. Daemons are spilling out and warring over the surface of the planet. So even if Armageddon is so truly important, Armageddon is one of many thousands of worlds terrorized by the Cicatrix Maledictum.
Yes? How does that make Armageddon any less important than the Great Rift? Converging plot-arcs, no?
That's like saying "Macragge isn't important, because the Tyranids attacked it", or "Cadia isn't important, because Chaos Marines attacked it", or "Terra isn't important because it was attacked by Orks and Chaos".
Which means in addition to attempting to argue the equation 1 >= 3,200
You're also attempting to claim Armageddon >= Armageddon+Terra+Mordia+Macragge+Baal, plus dozens of other worlds named in the 8th Ed. rule book. Which is also plainly irrational.
The Great Rift is one thing. Armageddon is another. They can, and do, have wider effects on the galaxy around them, but it doesn't mean that suddenly the Great Rift is tied to all those other worlds. If that were so, then by that same logic, Terra would be the most important thing in the galaxy, and we know how you feel about things being "the most important thing in the galaxy".
As for "humano-centricism", the Great Rift has a greater impact on more factions than Armageddon.
But does that make it more important? I don't think so. The Orks care more about Armageddon than any big warp storm. The Dark Eldar care more about Commoragh than any material threat.
Sure, it's more involved in some factions than others. But, in my opinion, that doesn't make it "more important".
You disagree? That's okay. That's just your opinion though.
We're talking about a fictional universe here, and our interpretations of it. End of the day, it's all opinions.
DalekCheese wrote: Please can we stop talking about Armageddon? P l e a s e
We're just about there.
Yes, we are.
You think Armageddon isn't as important as the Great Rift.
I think it's just as important.
We're not going to persuade the other as to our opinion, so we'll just have to settle with disagreeing.
Done. Moving on.
They/them
2020/02/10 18:39:27
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
I mean, Terra basically is the most important world in the galaxy, politically-speaking.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2020/02/10 22:34:19
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
They gave the emperor some grounding and really puts the primarchs in context for what they are - weapons of war created to unify the galaxy, rather than children desperately in need of a father.
They also are what perpetuals should have been rather than Dan Abnett's daft idea that they are wolverine levels of immortal.
Actually, that's finally something that I'd actually want to see properly gone and made definitely non-canon. I just never really liked the whole Sensei stuff. There's a few things in 40k I'd change, but very little I'd wholesale get rid of - the Sensei is one of those things, for me.
I'm okay with the Emperor being non-grounded, myself.
They/them
2020/02/11 00:04:30
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
You think Armageddon isn't as important as the Great Rift.
I think it's just as important.
Frankly, your reasoning is completely absurd. Like it really has not any connection with logic or reality at all. It would be like saying that Sergeant Telion and Guilliman are equally influential characters and have same impact to the setting. Like sure, one can say that, but it is obvious nonsense.
You think Armageddon isn't as important as the Great Rift.
I think it's just as important.
Frankly, your reasoning is completely absurd. Like it really has not any connection with logic or reality at all. It would be like saying that Sergeant Telion and Guilliman are equally influential characters and have same impact to the setting. Like sure, one can say that, but it is obvious nonsense.
In your opinion.
Are we done?
They/them
2020/02/11 00:43:27
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Actually, that's finally something that I'd actually want to see properly gone and made definitely non-canon. I just never really liked the whole Sensei stuff. There's a few things in 40k I'd change, but very little I'd wholesale get rid of - the Sensei is one of those things, for me.
I'm okay with the Emperor being non-grounded, myself.
It makes less sense that some humans are just born randomly with the ability to regrow their bodies from nothing, than it does the most powerful gestalt psychic being in humanity's history created some mutant kids when he had sex and those kids don't die of natural causes. From a literary perspective there's no competition - perpetuals are a poorly devised, highly consequential addition. the sensei fit the setting and actually don't make waves in the same way truly immortal beings would.
And the emperor has always been grounded, it's the OTT the hero god worship that has created the ungrounded version. But rather than understanding that as an in-universe piece of cultural propaganda, fans seem to have literally embraced it as actual truth, which is highly ironic.
The emperor was an immortal powerful psychic who's only actual superiority was thousands of years of experience and multuple personalities to draw from. But he wasn't omnipotent, nor omniscient. He was a man given ultimate power trying to do the best he could with what he had.
IMO, the great crusade is the lowest point in his story. He spent 38,000 years behind the scenes trying to guide humanity away from chaos extinction. He got tired and despaired at the sysiphaen task and took direct action. By comparison the unification and great crusade were massive rush jobs, desperation moves by someone clearly tired of the task they'd set themselves. It was the equivalent of deploying nukes when you get sick of the back and forth diplomacy of the UN going in circles.
When people buy into the god emperor schtick they're devaluing him.
It makes less sense that some humans are just born randomly with the ability to regrow their bodies from nothing, than it does the most powerful gestalt psychic being in humanity's history created some mutant kids when he had sex and those kids don't die of natural causes. From a literary perspective there's no competition - perpetuals are a poorly devised, highly consequential addition. the sensei fit the setting and actually don't make waves in the same way truly immortal beings would.
Indeed. I am not a huge fan of the Sensei, but compared to the Perpetuals they're obviously a superior concept. They actually logically flow from the established elements and have a place in the various intrigues of the setting. Perpetuals are just bizarre endlessly regenerating immortals that some BL author apparently pulled out of their arse with no rhyme or reason.
And the emperor has always been grounded, it's the OTT the hero god worship that has created the ungrounded version. But rather than understanding that as an in-universe piece of cultural propaganda, fans seem to have literally embraced it as actual truth, which is highly ironic.
Hellebore wrote: It makes less sense that some humans are just born randomly with the ability to regrow their bodies from nothing, than it does the most powerful gestalt psychic being in humanity's history created some mutant kids when he had sex and those kids don't die of natural causes. From a literary perspective there's no competition - perpetuals are a poorly devised, highly consequential addition. the sensei fit the setting and actually don't make waves in the same way truly immortal beings would.
Eh, in a setting as wildly overpowered as 40k, I've never been bothered by the idea that some people could just be born perpetual or supremely psychic. I just never liked the Sensei.
And the emperor has always been grounded, it's the OTT the hero god worship that has created the ungrounded version. But rather than understanding that as an in-universe piece of cultural propaganda, fans seem to have literally embraced it as actual truth, which is highly ironic.
Oh, some fans thinking that the God-Emperor is a good or "right" character is definitely an issue! But I'm completely fine with him genuinely being that powerful, obviously bearing in mind that it doesn't make him good, or omni-anything.
Basically, between him being a combination of a bunch of shaman psychics, or one guy who happens to be more powerful than others, I prefer the latter. But, that's my opinion, and my "piece of lore I'd be happy to see gone".
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Actually, that's finally something that I'd actually want to see properly gone and made definitely non-canon. I just never really liked the whole Sensei stuff. There's a few things in 40k I'd change, but very little I'd wholesale get rid of - the Sensei is one of those things, for me.
I'm okay with the Emperor being non-grounded, myself.
It makes less sense that some humans are just born randomly with the ability to regrow their bodies from nothing, than it does the most powerful gestalt psychic being in humanity's history created some mutant kids when he had sex and those kids don't die of natural causes. From a literary perspective there's no competition - perpetuals are a poorly devised, highly consequential addition. the sensei fit the setting and actually don't make waves in the same way truly immortal beings would.
And the emperor has always been grounded, it's the OTT the hero god worship that has created the ungrounded version. But rather than understanding that as an in-universe piece of cultural propaganda, fans seem to have literally embraced it as actual truth, which is highly ironic.
The emperor was an immortal powerful psychic who's only actual superiority was thousands of years of experience and multuple personalities to draw from. But he wasn't omnipotent, nor omniscient. He was a man given ultimate power trying to do the best he could with what he had.
IMO, the great crusade is the lowest point in his story. He spent 38,000 years behind the scenes trying to guide humanity away from chaos extinction. He got tired and despaired at the sysiphaen task and took direct action. By comparison the unification and great crusade were massive rush jobs, desperation moves by someone clearly tired of the task they'd set themselves. It was the equivalent of deploying nukes when you get sick of the back and forth diplomacy of the UN going in circles.
When people buy into the god emperor schtick they're devaluing him.
The Sensei are actually written as descendants, not necessarily sons, of the Emperor. So it could be that whatever genetic quirk that creates them might skip some generations and only be expressed long after the Emperor has moved on from an area. Maybe Sensei are still being born down the ages, here and there, across the galaxy as those genes might have dispersed with humanity.
I agree that the whole coming out as Emperor and ruling overtly was a desperation move by a being that had failed to make much headway against the Chaos gods for much of history, and after the DAoT collapsed into ruin. Then...this desperation move seemed to work and work better than anything else the Emperor had been trying for 38,000 years. Nothing breeds over-confidence and complacency like success. That's my view of how the Emperor could have been so seemingly blind to the character flaws of the Primarchs. He was succeeding so quickly, he was in a hurry to move on to the next phase, which was why he retired back to Terra. He probably figured he could deal with those pesky Primarchs later, and one at a time, not imagining a massed revolt led by the Primarch he trusted the most.
2020/02/11 09:17:24
Subject: Re:What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
this has been explained, multiple times, lemme explain it to you nice and simple in a big bold fault. Cawl was one of the scientists who developed space marines in the first p[lace, as such he has insider knowledge of the process. And Primaris Marine crafting was not an exact science. the end result is the best he could do. there where several ideas Cawl could not actually make work Cawl isn't just some dude. he was a personal student of the emperor's.
The issue is not in this, but in one dude being everywhere and doing everything. In addition, it ignores other attempts which "Emperor's scientists" attempted and ended in fiasco. Crawl is just a man and on his own he can't be responsible for single handedly reinventing half of Imperium's tech. Especially not in such complex and difficult fields where we have Fabius Bile trying that same stuff from more than 10 thousand years now. Make it look like huge undertaking rather than some marry sue just pulling out solutions out of his closet one day when he got bored.
yet Tau ARE a popular faction. and the same people dumping on Tau are the ones dumping on Primaris Marines. People whom haven't looked beyond the inital impression at the depths of said lore, and hold opinions based of out ignorance of the actual facts. (Not everyone who dislikes Tau is like that BTW, I dislike em because the aestetic doesn't appeal to me. but I understand 40k is supposed to have a wide varity of differing aestetics)
There isn't any depth in said lore. Furthermore you had missed the entire point. These people dumbing on Tau were actual fans of W40k. Ones who enjoyed Tau were more of outsiders. They liked Tau for all the wrong reasons, because those reasons had no place to be in W40k. In the end, Tau was retconned to fit W40k setting and who they are in most recent lore have only superficial similarities with who they were in their original lore.
no a Mary sue would be universally loved, Cawl isn't. Cawl is simply a very old... I was going to say being, but thats the thing, Cawl isn't really one person anymore, he's more a gestalt. I imagine he runs around basicly absorbing peoples knowledge into himself over history.
Another piece of nonsensical lore which people hate. Such individuals/people/whatever had been mentioned multiple times in this thread as having no place in W40k setting.
I don't think you Understand, Gulliman is a living saint. he's a DIVINE individual. Bjorn the Fellhanded is held in awe because he walked the stars in the same time the emperor did (and as far as I know had never even been in the same room as the emperor) Gulliman is the emperor's SON, he's talked to him, walked with him. confided in him. I'd use real life parellels except, I'm not sure there are any. Gulliman is, in the eyes of the Imperium, divinity made flesh.
No, he most definitely is not a living saint. Please do not use these words so liberally as they refer to very specific warp entities. Otherwise I will have to perform exorcism on Guiliman to really cause damage to him. I do agree that everyone is in awe with him, but you miss nuance which you yourself critique me on. Guiliman had pissed a lot of forces in Imperium, even his own chapter. You miss all this nuance in favor of more marry sue nonsense. You miss nuance that W40k Imperium is nothing like W30k. You also miss differences between W40k and W30k story telling. W40k is all about grim darkness where average Joes are pitted against unimaginable horrors that universe can throw at them. It is about larger than life things where loss of entire star systems is just a drop in a bucket. Where massive structures once proudly erected now lies in constant decay, plagued with stagnation and endless powerplay. Where once mighty heroes are all gone and only incompetent bafoons and political backstabbers are left. W30k is about bright future, super soldiers and rebellion. W30k is primary played out around super soldiers and their drama, human element is superficial. Bringing Primarchs back and making gakloads of new superer super soldiers is merely being completely out of touch with their own setting.
Here is quick reference.
Old lore: Thunder Warriors: Inferior super soldiers. Space marines: Super soldiers. Custodes: Superior super soldiers. Grey knights: Supreme super soldiers.
New lore: Space Marines: Super soldiers. Primaris Marines: Superer super soldiers. Primaris Custodes: Superer Superior super soldiers. Primaris Grey Knights: Superer Supreme super soldiers.
Do you see what kind of nonsense GW had written themselves into? All they needed was to make skin and rule swaps and give some half hearted explanation in lore about new tech. Even if they wanted to introduce new super soldiers, we already have PERFECT solution to what primaris marines should be. It is called: Thunder Warriors. In fact, they were superior to Adeptus Astartes, but their genomes was unstable. They were prone to battle lust and their genesede will often cause them to die on their own in terrible ways. This made Thunder Warriors into extreme risk takers and very aggressive warriors. They were hard to control, but exceptionally potent in war, yet dangerous in peace times and being unable to undertake non-combat duties with any efficiency. They are PERFECT representations of what Primaris nonsense are supposed to be and GW could simply had stated that Imperium are just reintroducing Thunder Warriors again and everybody would get so excited. Yet, they fethed it up so badly that it pissed huge portion of fanbase and I have people like you saying that no, everything is perfectly fine. It is fans who are to blame and GW could not had done this any better. I really hate this kind of attitude where it is always a victim, customer who is wrong and one who is doing that stuff is blameless.
Basic facts about Thunder Warriors:
Wrought to be living weapons, the Thunder Warriors were known to be physically stronger, more savage and more potent in combat than the later Astartes, though they were not as long-lived...Thunder Warriors were large, greater in size than most Space Marines. In their earliest days the Thunder Warriors wore metal armor with leather strappings and wielded Lasrifles.Despite physical deterioration, the few Warriors that survived the end of the Unification Wars were easily more than a match for an Astartes, and had even outperformed Custodians during combat engagements... Even severely deteriorated Thunder Warriors shown capable of fighting multiple Astartes at once. The Thunder Warriors genetic template was unstable and they were prone to fits of bloodlust and instability. Short-lived and rife with both mental and physical health issues, Thunder Warriors were known to suddenly drop dead or stop following orders.
I also hate all this "talking to the Emperor" or "Emperor intervening" nonsense. Emperor had became a God like he always had wanted (Chaos propaganda). If he is still alive, he sits in endless agony in his throne half-dead. What "Emperor" is in modern lore is nothing that he was in W30k. I'm not sure if these two things are even a same person. In W40k, the Emperor is literal Chaos god which is about to gain consciousness. Due to collective belief, it is very likely this event will happen when old, fake Emperor will finally be released from his endless torture on his golden throne. This new Chaos Emperor has very little resemblance in his personality with original Emperor. Emperor's demons are known to inspire religious fanatism in their followers and engage all foes with absolute contempt. There is no negotiation, there is no deals. Like Chaos God Malal only seeks chaos, Chaos Emperor has only one solution to anything that isn't an Imperium. Bolter round to a head. No negotiation. No words exchanged. No parley tolerated. Nothing learned from their enemies.
Btw: You need to understand when it is appropriate to engage with someone in rational discussion and when it is not.
This message was edited 17 times. Last update was at 2020/02/11 10:53:39
"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."
Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points.
2020/02/11 13:15:03
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Iracundus wrote:I agree that the whole coming out as Emperor and ruling overtly was a desperation move by a being that had failed to make much headway against the Chaos gods for much of history, and after the DAoT collapsed into ruin. Then...this desperation move seemed to work and work better than anything else the Emperor had been trying for 38,000 years. Nothing breeds over-confidence and complacency like success. That's my view of how the Emperor could have been so seemingly blind to the character flaws of the Primarchs. He was succeeding so quickly, he was in a hurry to move on to the next phase, which was why he retired back to Terra. He probably figured he could deal with those pesky Primarchs later, and one at a time, not imagining a massed revolt led by the Primarch he trusted the most.
That's how I read it, yeah. He comes out of hiding as a "I *need* to get my hands dirty" kind of move, and then, when it succeeds, he keeps his hands on the project, and is essentially winging it the entire time. I believes he can trust his Primarchs, or at the very least, believes he would win if they ever did turn on him, but he's proven disastrously wrong by Magnus.
Ernestas-
Spoiler:
Ernestas wrote:The issue is not in this, but in one dude being everywhere and doing everything. In addition, it ignores other attempts which "Emperor's scientists" attempted and ended in fiasco.
Those cases weren't anywhere near the same as Cawl.
Things like the Cursed Founding, we have no evidence that someone on the same tier as Cawl worked on them. Cawl/Sedayne was LITERALLY working with the Emperor - not with, not for,
but actually knew him. That's the difference between Oppenheimer, and a random physician halfway across the world.
Crawl is just a man and on his own he can't be responsible for single handedly reinventing half of Imperium's tech.
The Primaris stuff isn't "half of the Imperium's tech" at all - that's blatant exaggeration.
Considering that it all generally looks and functions the same as older stuff, it stands to reason that this tech isn't wholesale new. Plus, while we have cases of certain things being named after Cawl (the Cawl MkII bolt rifle), you don't suspect that, much like with the Astartes, they were made by Cawl's team of scientists, not all by Cawl himself?
Especially not in such complex and difficult fields where we have Fabius Bile trying that same stuff from more than 10 thousand years now. Make it look like huge undertaking rather than some marry sue just pulling out solutions out of his closet one day when he got bored.
Fabius, for all his gifts, is just an extremely talented/deranged Apothecary, and much of his knowledge now comes from xenos factions. He's not interested in retreading the Emperor's steps - he wants to make his own wholly unique creation.
Compare this to Cawl, someone who's already gone through the stages of initially creating the Astartes and was responsible for one of the most important modifications (the Black Carapace), and has the resources of the entire Imperium, as well as his own first hand knowledge and experience, taking just as log to make a slightly better Space Marine.
You're still viewing Cawl as "this random new guy", because that's what he is OOC to us. But within the actual 40k canon, he's not that at all.
yet Tau ARE a popular faction. and the same people dumping on Tau are the ones dumping on Primaris Marines. People whom haven't looked beyond the inital impression at the depths of said lore, and hold opinions based of out ignorance of the actual facts. (Not everyone who dislikes Tau is like that BTW, I dislike em because the aestetic doesn't appeal to me. but I understand 40k is supposed to have a wide varity of differing aestetics)
There isn't any depth in said lore. Furthermore you had missed the entire point. These people dumbing on Tau were actual fans of W40k. Ones who enjoyed Tau were more of outsiders. They liked Tau for all the wrong reasons, because those reasons had no place to be in W40k. In the end, Tau was retconned to fit W40k setting and who they are in most recent lore have only superficial similarities with who they were in their original lore.
Sounds a lot like gatekeeping there, this whole talk of "actual fans doing X". If you'll forgive me, it doesn't sound too far off rhetoric saying "if you like Primaris, you're not a TRUE FAN of 40k" - which is obviously absurd gatekeeping talk.
And I disagree that Tau aren't anything like their original stuff. It's still all there - the faction has only evolved slightly, and that's perfect, because that's what the Tau were all about - we could see how a ""good"" faction would have to change in order to cope with the grimdarkness around them.
no a Mary sue would be universally loved, Cawl isn't. Cawl is simply a very old... I was going to say being, but thats the thing, Cawl isn't really one person anymore, he's more a gestalt. I imagine he runs around basicly absorbing peoples knowledge into himself over history.
Another piece of nonsensical lore which people hate.
Some people? All people? "True fans"?
Such individuals/people/whatever had been mentioned multiple times in this thread as having no place in W40k setting.
Well, sorry to say it, but hasn't the Emperor being a gestalt personality been thrown around in 40k lore a lot? Now, I don't actually like it too much, but I'm not going to argue that it's non-canon or that it "has no place in the setting".
Not to mention that I'm fairly sure that Cawl being made up of many personalities isn't exactly uncommon within the Admech, who literally have memory/personality cores and stuff. The thing that makes Cawl unique is the sheer amount he has, and that many of those personalities/memories are of some very important people.
No, he most definitely is not a living saint. Please do not use these words so liberally as they refer to very specific warp entities.
Well, there's your problem - Living Saints aren't always Warp entities.
Saint Basillius, while he was alive, was declared a Living Saint (and then was revealed to be a heretic) - nothing to do with the Warp. Celestine, another Living Saint, isn't a Warp entity, or at the very least, wasn't born as one. The original founders of the Sisters of Battle, Alicia Dominica and her sisters-at-arms, were all declared Living Saints, and none of them were warp entities.
In fact, seeing as Guilliman possesses literal Warp energy within him (as all Primarchs do) as part of his genealogy, he's closer to the Warp than most Living Saints!
Guiliman had pissed a lot of forces in Imperium, even his own chapter.
Source on doing that to his own Chapter? And sure, maybe he did. But he's still a Primarch - a soldier can be annoyed by their superior officers, but they're still their superior officer. Unless you're willing to stand against him in arms, and out yourself as a traitor and heretic, and hopefully win the war afterwards to write your own history of the event, you're not going to do anything directly about it.
You miss all this nuance in favor of more marry sue nonsense.
Funnily enough, that's actually closer to what you're doing. You're missing out all the nuance of Guilliman returning, and instead all focusing on "b-b-b-but he's too strong this shouldn't be allowed m-m-m-mary sue!"
You're being so wrapped up in "he's a Primarch and no-one's gone to war with him!" that you're missing out on how Guilliman is self-defeating himself by supporting the Ecclesiarchy, how he's trying to convince the Admech that he won't put Cawl in power, dealing with the revelation that his own creator and father sees him only as a tool, and all while trying to hold his father's Imperium together in the worst state it's been in since the Dark Age.
Bringing Primarchs back and making gakloads of new superer super soldiers is merely being completely out of touch with their own setting.
Speaking of being out of touch with their setting, it'd help if you read some of the new fluff. You know, the fluff that is completely different to what you're describing.
Here is quick reference.
Old lore:
Thunder Warriors: Inferior super soldiers.
Space marines: Super soldiers.
Custodes: Superior super soldiers.
Grey knights: Supreme super soldiers.
New lore:
Space Marines: Super soldiers.
Primaris Marines: Superer super soldiers.
Primaris Custodes: Superer Superior super soldiers.
Primaris Grey Knights: Superer Supreme super soldiers.
Considering that Primaris Custodes and Primaris Grey Knights don't exist, your idea of "new lore" is complete headcanon - as we've been telling you. Not to mention that your deliberate use of infantilising language ("superer") is made as an attempt to devalue the Primaris for being better than Space Marines - but you don't use that term with the Custodes or Grey Knights, who you instead use more rational adjectives.
If you were truly being honest, you'd be calling Custodes "supererer super soldiers", not "superior super soldiers".
Thunder Warriors are still canon. Nothing changed there. In fact, they actually got quite a bit more fleshed out in Valdor's recent novel - in a pretty interesting way too.
Yet, they fethed it up so badly that it pissed huge portion of fanbase and I have people like you saying that no, everything is perfectly fine. It is fans who are to blame and GW could not had done this any better.
Aaaaaand there we are - the whole "you're a fake fan"/" you're not a TRUE 40k fan" gatekeeping garbage.
You don't like the new stuff - that's okay. You're entitled to that opinion. But as for the others who actually like it, they're just as entitled to their opinion as you are, and have just as much a stake in the setting as you.
I also hate all this "talking to the Emperor" or "Emperor intervening" nonsense. Emperor had became a God like he always had wanted (Chaos propaganda). If he is still alive, he sits in endless agony in his throne half-dead. What "Emperor" is in modern lore is nothing that he was in W30k. I'm not sure if these two things are even a same person. In W40k, the Emperor is literal Chaos god which is about to gain consciousness. Due to collective belief, it is very likely this event will happen when old, fake Emperor will finally be released from his endless torture on his golden throne. This new Chaos Emperor has very little resemblance in his personality with original Emperor. Emperor's demons are known to inspire religious fanatism in their followers and engage all foes with absolute contempt. There is no negotiation, there is no deals. Like Chaos God Malal only seeks chaos, Chaos Emperor has only one solution to anything that isn't an Imperium. Bolter round to a head. No negotiation. No words exchanged. No parley tolerated. Nothing learned from their enemies.
That's a fine interpretation of the setting, and if that's how you view 40k, you're welcome to it.
But there's been plenty of cases and evidence that the Imperium isn't quite so black and white, and hasn't been for decades, and for those people, their interpretations are equally as valid.
There's no "one true 40k canon" or "one true interpretation", and so your insinuation that people who like Tau, or Primaris, or think Guilliman has been well written are all fake fans needs to go the way of the dodo. It's all opinion, at the end of the day. We're not talking about actual reality, with empirical evidence and easily provable ummutable laws of reality: we're talking about a fictional setting, with many self-admitted interpretations and perspective to view it - which, arguably, I'd say is 40k's biggest strength as a setting.
Btw: You need to understand when it is appropriate to engage with someone in rational discussion and when it is not.
Yes, I think you do. Actually reading the new material would be a start.
TL;DR - Stop gatekeeping. There's more than just your interpretation and opinions here, and we're all entitled to enjoy and view the setting how we please, without being implied as "fake fans" for it.
They/them
2020/02/11 18:24:22
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Who cares if 32000 worlds are like Armageddon (although I disagree with that notion, seeing as you're basing that off of the idea that Armageddon is like a normal Hive World) - we hear about Armageddon, not those 32000 worlds.
That is a truly irrational claim. That's the sort of reasoning that puts Earth in the center of the universe in ancient cosmological maps.
This is a fictional universe. Not a real, physical entity.
Irrelevant. Your reasoning is equally erroneous.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
You're being humano-centric.
This bring us to your next problem, which is the fact that Armageddon also comes under threat because of the Great Rift. Daemons are spilling out and warring over the surface of the planet. So even if Armageddon is so truly important, Armageddon is one of many thousands of worlds terrorized by the Cicatrix Maledictum.
Yes? How does that make Armageddon any less important than the Great Rift? Converging plot-arcs, no?
That's like saying "Macragge isn't important, because the Tyranids attacked it", or "Cadia isn't important, because Chaos Marines attacked it", or "Terra isn't important because it was attacked by Orks and Chaos".
Unsurprisingly at this point, your argument makes no sense.
Which means in addition to attempting to argue the equation 1 >= 3,200
You're also attempting to claim Armageddon >= Armageddon+Terra+Mordia+Macragge+Baal, plus dozens of other worlds named in the 8th Ed. rule book. Which is also plainly irrational.
The Great Rift is one thing. Armageddon is another. They can, and do, have wider effects on the galaxy around them, but it doesn't mean that suddenly the Great Rift is tied to all those other worlds. If that were so, then by that same logic, Terra would be the most important thing in the galaxy, and we know how you feel about things being "the most important thing in the galaxy".
The Great Rift had a direct impact on all of those worlds. Read your rule book.
Terra might arguably be the most important world in the galaxy, considering that it's necessary for the most dominant unified faction to function. There is a canonical reason for Terra to be of exceptional importance.
We're talking about a fictional universe here, and our interpretations of it. End of the day, it's all opinions.
If you held the "opinion" that Space Marines are all drawn from female occupants. Your "opinion" would be wrong. Canon is a thing.
Iracundus wrote:I agree that the whole coming out as Emperor and ruling overtly was a desperation move by a being that had failed to make much headway against the Chaos gods for much of history, and after the DAoT collapsed into ruin. Then...this desperation move seemed to work and work better than anything else the Emperor had been trying for 38,000 years. Nothing breeds over-confidence and complacency like success. That's my view of how the Emperor could have been so seemingly blind to the character flaws of the Primarchs. He was succeeding so quickly, he was in a hurry to move on to the next phase, which was why he retired back to Terra. He probably figured he could deal with those pesky Primarchs later, and one at a time, not imagining a massed revolt led by the Primarch he trusted the most.
That's how I read it, yeah. He comes out of hiding as a "I *need* to get my hands dirty" kind of move, and then, when it succeeds, he keeps his hands on the project, and is essentially winging it the entire time. I believes he can trust his Primarchs, or at the very least, believes he would win if they ever did turn on him, but he's proven disastrously wrong by Magnus.
Ernestas-
Spoiler:
Ernestas wrote:The issue is not in this, but in one dude being everywhere and doing everything. In addition, it ignores other attempts which "Emperor's scientists" attempted and ended in fiasco.
Those cases weren't anywhere near the same as Cawl.
Things like the Cursed Founding, we have no evidence that someone on the same tier as Cawl worked on them. Cawl/Sedayne was LITERALLY working with the Emperor - not with, not for,
but actually knew him. That's the difference between Oppenheimer, and a random physician halfway across the world.
Crawl is just a man and on his own he can't be responsible for single handedly reinventing half of Imperium's tech.
The Primaris stuff isn't "half of the Imperium's tech" at all - that's blatant exaggeration.
Considering that it all generally looks and functions the same as older stuff, it stands to reason that this tech isn't wholesale new. Plus, while we have cases of certain things being named after Cawl (the Cawl MkII bolt rifle), you don't suspect that, much like with the Astartes, they were made by Cawl's team of scientists, not all by Cawl himself?
Especially not in such complex and difficult fields where we have Fabius Bile trying that same stuff from more than 10 thousand years now. Make it look like huge undertaking rather than some marry sue just pulling out solutions out of his closet one day when he got bored.
Fabius, for all his gifts, is just an extremely talented/deranged Apothecary, and much of his knowledge now comes from xenos factions. He's not interested in retreading the Emperor's steps - he wants to make his own wholly unique creation.
Compare this to Cawl, someone who's already gone through the stages of initially creating the Astartes and was responsible for one of the most important modifications (the Black Carapace), and has the resources of the entire Imperium, as well as his own first hand knowledge and experience, taking just as log to make a slightly better Space Marine.
You're still viewing Cawl as "this random new guy", because that's what he is OOC to us. But within the actual 40k canon, he's not that at all.
yet Tau ARE a popular faction. and the same people dumping on Tau are the ones dumping on Primaris Marines. People whom haven't looked beyond the inital impression at the depths of said lore, and hold opinions based of out ignorance of the actual facts. (Not everyone who dislikes Tau is like that BTW, I dislike em because the aestetic doesn't appeal to me. but I understand 40k is supposed to have a wide varity of differing aestetics)
There isn't any depth in said lore. Furthermore you had missed the entire point. These people dumbing on Tau were actual fans of W40k. Ones who enjoyed Tau were more of outsiders. They liked Tau for all the wrong reasons, because those reasons had no place to be in W40k. In the end, Tau was retconned to fit W40k setting and who they are in most recent lore have only superficial similarities with who they were in their original lore.
Sounds a lot like gatekeeping there, this whole talk of "actual fans doing X". If you'll forgive me, it doesn't sound too far off rhetoric saying "if you like Primaris, you're not a TRUE FAN of 40k" - which is obviously absurd gatekeeping talk.
And I disagree that Tau aren't anything like their original stuff. It's still all there - the faction has only evolved slightly, and that's perfect, because that's what the Tau were all about - we could see how a ""good"" faction would have to change in order to cope with the grimdarkness around them.
no a Mary sue would be universally loved, Cawl isn't. Cawl is simply a very old... I was going to say being, but thats the thing, Cawl isn't really one person anymore, he's more a gestalt. I imagine he runs around basicly absorbing peoples knowledge into himself over history.
Another piece of nonsensical lore which people hate.
Some people? All people? "True fans"?
Such individuals/people/whatever had been mentioned multiple times in this thread as having no place in W40k setting.
Well, sorry to say it, but hasn't the Emperor being a gestalt personality been thrown around in 40k lore a lot? Now, I don't actually like it too much, but I'm not going to argue that it's non-canon or that it "has no place in the setting".
Not to mention that I'm fairly sure that Cawl being made up of many personalities isn't exactly uncommon within the Admech, who literally have memory/personality cores and stuff. The thing that makes Cawl unique is the sheer amount he has, and that many of those personalities/memories are of some very important people.
No, he most definitely is not a living saint. Please do not use these words so liberally as they refer to very specific warp entities.
Well, there's your problem - Living Saints aren't always Warp entities.
Saint Basillius, while he was alive, was declared a Living Saint (and then was revealed to be a heretic) - nothing to do with the Warp. Celestine, another Living Saint, isn't a Warp entity, or at the very least, wasn't born as one. The original founders of the Sisters of Battle, Alicia Dominica and her sisters-at-arms, were all declared Living Saints, and none of them were warp entities.
In fact, seeing as Guilliman possesses literal Warp energy within him (as all Primarchs do) as part of his genealogy, he's closer to the Warp than most Living Saints!
Guiliman had pissed a lot of forces in Imperium, even his own chapter.
Source on doing that to his own Chapter? And sure, maybe he did. But he's still a Primarch - a soldier can be annoyed by their superior officers, but they're still their superior officer. Unless you're willing to stand against him in arms, and out yourself as a traitor and heretic, and hopefully win the war afterwards to write your own history of the event, you're not going to do anything directly about it.
You miss all this nuance in favor of more marry sue nonsense.
Funnily enough, that's actually closer to what you're doing. You're missing out all the nuance of Guilliman returning, and instead all focusing on "b-b-b-but he's too strong this shouldn't be allowed m-m-m-mary sue!"
You're being so wrapped up in "he's a Primarch and no-one's gone to war with him!" that you're missing out on how Guilliman is self-defeating himself by supporting the Ecclesiarchy, how he's trying to convince the Admech that he won't put Cawl in power, dealing with the revelation that his own creator and father sees him only as a tool, and all while trying to hold his father's Imperium together in the worst state it's been in since the Dark Age.
Bringing Primarchs back and making gakloads of new superer super soldiers is merely being completely out of touch with their own setting.
Speaking of being out of touch with their setting, it'd help if you read some of the new fluff. You know, the fluff that is completely different to what you're describing.
Here is quick reference.
Old lore:
Thunder Warriors: Inferior super soldiers.
Space marines: Super soldiers.
Custodes: Superior super soldiers.
Grey knights: Supreme super soldiers.
New lore:
Space Marines: Super soldiers.
Primaris Marines: Superer super soldiers.
Primaris Custodes: Superer Superior super soldiers.
Primaris Grey Knights: Superer Supreme super soldiers.
Considering that Primaris Custodes and Primaris Grey Knights don't exist, your idea of "new lore" is complete headcanon - as we've been telling you. Not to mention that your deliberate use of infantilising language ("superer") is made as an attempt to devalue the Primaris for being better than Space Marines - but you don't use that term with the Custodes or Grey Knights, who you instead use more rational adjectives.
If you were truly being honest, you'd be calling Custodes "supererer super soldiers", not "superior super soldiers".
Thunder Warriors are still canon. Nothing changed there. In fact, they actually got quite a bit more fleshed out in Valdor's recent novel - in a pretty interesting way too.
Yet, they fethed it up so badly that it pissed huge portion of fanbase and I have people like you saying that no, everything is perfectly fine. It is fans who are to blame and GW could not had done this any better.
Aaaaaand there we are - the whole "you're a fake fan"/" you're not a TRUE 40k fan" gatekeeping garbage.
You don't like the new stuff - that's okay. You're entitled to that opinion. But as for the others who actually like it, they're just as entitled to their opinion as you are, and have just as much a stake in the setting as you.
I also hate all this "talking to the Emperor" or "Emperor intervening" nonsense. Emperor had became a God like he always had wanted (Chaos propaganda). If he is still alive, he sits in endless agony in his throne half-dead. What "Emperor" is in modern lore is nothing that he was in W30k. I'm not sure if these two things are even a same person. In W40k, the Emperor is literal Chaos god which is about to gain consciousness. Due to collective belief, it is very likely this event will happen when old, fake Emperor will finally be released from his endless torture on his golden throne. This new Chaos Emperor has very little resemblance in his personality with original Emperor. Emperor's demons are known to inspire religious fanatism in their followers and engage all foes with absolute contempt. There is no negotiation, there is no deals. Like Chaos God Malal only seeks chaos, Chaos Emperor has only one solution to anything that isn't an Imperium. Bolter round to a head. No negotiation. No words exchanged. No parley tolerated. Nothing learned from their enemies.
That's a fine interpretation of the setting, and if that's how you view 40k, you're welcome to it.
But there's been plenty of cases and evidence that the Imperium isn't quite so black and white, and hasn't been for decades, and for those people, their interpretations are equally as valid.
There's no "one true 40k canon" or "one true interpretation", and so your insinuation that people who like Tau, or Primaris, or think Guilliman has been well written are all fake fans needs to go the way of the dodo. It's all opinion, at the end of the day. We're not talking about actual reality, with empirical evidence and easily provable ummutable laws of reality: we're talking about a fictional setting, with many self-admitted interpretations and perspective to view it - which, arguably, I'd say is 40k's biggest strength as a setting.
Btw: You need to understand when it is appropriate to engage with someone in rational discussion and when it is not.
Yes, I think you do. Actually reading the new material would be a start.
TL;DR - Stop gatekeeping. There's more than just your interpretation and opinions here, and we're all entitled to enjoy and view the setting how we please, without being implied as "fake fans" for it.
I’m siding with Smudge on this one, but please don’t use that as an excuse to restart this whole argument- please!
See that stuff above? Completely true. All of it, every single word. Stands to reason.
2020/02/12 09:46:17
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
you just had to add fuel to the dumpsterfire next to the explosives manufacuterer.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/02/12 11:29:25
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
