I like the Lion model alot, It's quite a bit more restrained than some of the other primarch models. He appears to be wielding a chain sword, and if memory serves the lion sword is a power sword, so that would place this model between the end of imperium secundus and aftermath of the siege of terra (when he stabbed russ with the lion sword). Kind of an odd design decision, unless a new book comes along he wasn't really doing much during that period, certainly not chopping up night lords.
*edit* I suppose there is another possibility, though it's a long shot. This model might be meant for dual purpose, because if the lion woke up tomorrow in 40k, he wouldn't have the lion sword because cypher has it. So if the model was meant to be used in 40k as well they might have chosen this particular weapon since it works in both time periods.
As said above, he's a 30k model not a 40k one, just like Angron, Horus, Perty, Alpharius, Sanguinius, Dorn, Fulgrim, Corax, Kurze, Russ, Ferrus, Lorgar, or Vulkan.
Why were people expecting 40k rules for a Primarch branded with 30k marketing? Is the same said for things like the Interemptors and Knights Cenobium?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As said above, he's a 30k model not a 40k one, just like Angron, Horus, Perty, Alpharius, Sanguinius, Dorn, Fulgrim, Corax, Kurze, Russ, Ferrus, Lorgar, or Vulkan.
Why were people expecting 40k rules for a Primarch branded with 30k marketing? Is the same said for things like the Interemptors and Knights Cenobium?
I think people like the OP were expecting a plastic Lion model for 40k (like Guilliman) at some point in the future, and that coming out with a 30k model means it's less likely we'll see his return in 40k.
I'd say it has zero bearing, since plastic Guilliman came out after his resin model did - same with Mortarion.
Why were people expecting 40k rules for a Primarch branded with 30k marketing? Is the same said for things like the Interemptors and Knights Cenobium?
I'm assuming that it's in reaction to the nonsense from people having sniffed out the preview's headers. When the pictures got leaked, immediately some of the usual suspects referred to it as "THE LION COMES TO40K!".
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Yeah, if the Lion`'s coming, this won't have hurried or slowed it in any way. Two different crews sculpting, for two different game systems.
and to further diffrentiate them I could see the Lion in 40k if he was introduced being given a new weapon or something, maybe the Lion sword reforged into something new, Ala Aundrial from the shards of Narsil...... actually thats kind of a neat idea
Dysartes wrote: Especially as a couple of snippets were mentioned during the stream.
S7 base, with the Wolf Sword giving +3S
Lion Sword for killing dudes, Wolf Sword for killing monsters...
That makes a lot of sense really. The Wolf Sword was a weird relic on Caliban which had a monster problem. I think it could have done with a better name though. Wolf Sword just sounds like it's from the Space Wolves.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Yeah, if the Lion`'s coming, this won't have hurried or slowed it in any way. Two different crews sculpting, for two different game systems.
and to further diffrentiate them I could see the Lion in 40k if he was introduced being given a new weapon or something, maybe the Lion sword reforged into something new, Ala Aundrial from the shards of Narsil...... actually thats kind of a neat idea
Depends on if Cypher is, in fact, carrying the broken pieces of the Lion Sword around, and whether anyone has been permitted the fix it.
Dysartes wrote: Especially as a couple of snippets were mentioned during the stream.
S7 base, with the Wolf Sword giving +3S
Lion Sword for killing dudes, Wolf Sword for killing monsters...
That makes a lot of sense really. The Wolf Sword was a weird relic on Caliban which had a monster problem. I think it could have done with a better name though. Wolf Sword just sounds like it's from the Space Wolves.
I have a feeling the sword wasn't really named until after the Lion used it to eradicate the Knights of Lupus.
Dysartes wrote: Especially as a couple of snippets were mentioned during the stream.
S7 base, with the Wolf Sword giving +3S
Lion Sword for killing dudes, Wolf Sword for killing monsters...
That makes a lot of sense really. The Wolf Sword was a weird relic on Caliban which had a monster problem. I think it could have done with a better name though. Wolf Sword just sounds like it's from the Space Wolves.
Or perhaps the Space Wolves should cut down on the "Wolf Wolf" prefixes. After all, the fact that the Ravenwing has nothing to do with the Raven Guard doesn't take much mental effort to navigate.
Don't fret, it's inevitable we'll see a far more overdesigned, worse looking Lion in plastic, probably leaping off something 'dynamically'.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Why were people expecting 40k rules for a Primarch branded with 30k marketing? Is the same said for things like the Interemptors and Knights Cenobium?
50% of any thread about a 30k release is now, "Why doesn't it have 40k rules?" At this rate they'll be asking for rules for LotR models.
Why were people expecting 40k rules for a Primarch branded with 30k marketing? Is the same said for things like the Interemptors and Knights Cenobium?
I'm assuming that it's in reaction to the nonsense from people having sniffed out the preview's headers. When the pictures got leaked, immediately some of the usual suspects referred to it as "THE LION COMES TO40K!".
Well, the backwards stumbling "don't steal my sword" pose of that newfangled HH model is probably the worst sculpting-attempt at a pose of a miniature holding a sword ever made, lol.
Question: is this the first time that the legionaries being slaughtered by a primarch on his base were a specific legion? I thought they were all just generic legionnaires before now. Is the Eighth the first to get this particular "honour"?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Yeah, if the Lion`'s coming, this won't have hurried or slowed it in any way. Two different crews sculpting, for two different game systems.
and to further diffrentiate them I could see the Lion in 40k if he was introduced being given a new weapon or something, maybe the Lion sword reforged into something new, Ala Aundrial from the shards of Narsil...... actually thats kind of a neat idea
Depends on if Cypher is, in fact, carrying the broken pieces of the Lion Sword around, and whether anyone has been permitted the fix it.
After the siege of terra, The Lion stabbed russ with the Lion Sword to bring an end to their duel, so unless it got broken again, the sword cypher has is whole and functional, but he's never drawn it so we don't know for sure. Guilliman recognized the sword the instant he saw it, he doesn't say it outright, but the very strong implication is the sword cypher has is the lion sword.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Yeah, if the Lion`'s coming, this won't have hurried or slowed it in any way. Two different crews sculpting, for two different game systems.
and to further diffrentiate them I could see the Lion in 40k if he was introduced being given a new weapon or something, maybe the Lion sword reforged into something new, Ala Aundrial from the shards of Narsil...... actually thats kind of a neat idea
Depends on if Cypher is, in fact, carrying the broken pieces of the Lion Sword around, and whether anyone has been permitted the fix it.
After the siege of terra, The Lion stabbed russ with the Lion Sword to bring an end to their duel, so unless it got broken again, the sword cypher has is whole and functional, but he's never drawn it so we don't know for sure. Guilliman recognized the sword the instant he saw it, he doesn't say it outright, but the very strong implication is the sword cypher has is the lion sword.
Yes there is a captain of a DA wing (the dreadwing ?) that keep the broken shards of the lion sword and reforge it by the end of the horus heresy. It is not broken.
Post-Angels of Caliban/Imperium Secundus, Holguin of the Deathwing has the shards of the Lion Sword and is it's caretaker/finding a way to reforge it.
There's not indication it's reforged yet, and unless something has changed the lore around Cypher was that he carried the broken pieces of the Lion Sword.
They need to do a special.edition. with el'Johnson facing off against Magnus with a large piece of bedroom furniture as the main backdrop. And by "they" I mean, like people. Good and talented people with more money than true sense.
Arbitrator wrote: Don't fret, it's inevitable we'll see a far more overdesigned, worse looking Lion in plastic, probably leaping off something 'dynamically'.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Why were people expecting 40k rules for a Primarch branded with 30k marketing? Is the same said for things like the Interemptors and Knights Cenobium?
50% of any thread about a 30k release is now, "Why doesn't it have 40k rules?" At this rate they'll be asking for rules for LotR models.
The Lion Sword is essentially Narsil/Anduril(shattered and reforged, only certain people are allowed to touch it without consequences, etc.), so...
BroodSpawn wrote: Post-Angels of Caliban/Imperium Secundus, Holguin of the Deathwing has the shards of the Lion Sword and is it's caretaker/finding a way to reforge it. There's not indication it's reforged yet, and unless something has changed the lore around Cypher was that he carried the broken pieces of the Lion Sword.
I thought it was certain that the Lion used the Lion sword in his duel against Russ at the end of the heresy ? In the Leman Russ primarch novel (The Great Wolf). Thanks for the clarification on who was keeping the sword, I forgot who it was.
BroodSpawn wrote: Post-Angels of Caliban/Imperium Secundus, Holguin of the Deathwing has the shards of the Lion Sword and is it's caretaker/finding a way to reforge it.
There's not indication it's reforged yet, and unless something has changed the lore around Cypher was that he carried the broken pieces of the Lion Sword.
I thought it was certain that the Lion used the Lion sword in his duel against Russ at the end of the heresy ? In the Leman Russ primarch novel (The Great Wolf).
Thanks for the clarification on who was keeping the sword, I forgot who it was.
I just had to look up what book that was. It's the Dulan incident/source of the feud between Russ and the Lion.. which is set pre-Heresy. It's why the two Legions have there feud and why Guilliman references it in Imperium Secundus.
As far as I know the sword itself isn't reforged before the Caliban incident. It might be by then (since they've not really gone into a lot of detail on 'the event' just done a lot of the buildup to it so far).
BroodSpawn wrote: Post-Angels of Caliban/Imperium Secundus, Holguin of the Deathwing has the shards of the Lion Sword and is it's caretaker/finding a way to reforge it.
There's not indication it's reforged yet, and unless something has changed the lore around Cypher was that he carried the broken pieces of the Lion Sword.
I thought it was certain that the Lion used the Lion sword in his duel against Russ at the end of the heresy ? In the Leman Russ primarch novel (The Great Wolf).
Thanks for the clarification on who was keeping the sword, I forgot who it was.
I just had to look up what book that was. It's the Dulan incident/source of the feud between Russ and the Lion.. which is set pre-Heresy. It's why the two Legions have there feud and why Guilliman references it in Imperium Secundus.
As far as I know the sword itself isn't reforged before the Caliban incident. It might be by then (since they've not really gone into a lot of detail on 'the event' just done a lot of the buildup to it so far).
The end of the book is post heresy IIRC. Russ wants to finish the duel with the Lion and he just gets stabbed by the Lion Sword although it's not a killing blow. Which seems to be late heresy Russ's schtick.
The end of the duel is right after they arrive too late on Terra and is fueled by the fact the Lion think Russ's demand to stop and help other planets instead of them rushing directly to Terra is the reason for them being late and not potentially stopping what happened.
mrFickle wrote: The important point is that after 2 fights it’s 2-0 to the lion and russ sucks
I don't think it counts as winning a fight if someone stands still and says if you want to stab me go ahead. Same for someone who stops fighting to laugh at how silly it is.
mrFickle wrote: The important point is that after 2 fights it’s 2-0 to the lion and russ sucks
I don't think it counts as winning a fight if someone stands still and says if you want to stab me go ahead. Same for someone who stops fighting to laugh at how silly it is.
True for the first example, but in the second one Russ started the fight out of pique, and then gave up when he realised that he couldn't win.
mrFickle wrote: The important point is that after 2 fights it’s 2-0 to the lion and russ sucks
I don't think it counts as winning a fight if someone stands still and says if you want to stab me go ahead. Same for someone who stops fighting to laugh at how silly it is.
True for the first example, but in the second one Russ started the fight out of pique, and then gave up when he realised that he couldn't win.
He quite explicitly laughed because he thought it was silly.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As said above, he's a 30k model not a 40k one, just like Angron, Horus, Perty, Alpharius, Sanguinius, Dorn, Fulgrim, Corax, Kurze, Russ, Ferrus, Lorgar, or Vulkan.
Why were people expecting 40k rules for a Primarch branded with 30k marketing? Is the same said for things like the Interemptors and Knights Cenobium?
Because he is literally not only alive in 40K per canon but also basically awake?
The real question is why anyone would assume that he won't be appearing in 40K at some point. He will.
mrFickle wrote: The important point is that after 2 fights it’s 2-0 to the lion and russ sucks
I don't think it counts as winning a fight if someone stands still and says if you want to stab me go ahead. Same for someone who stops fighting to laugh at how silly it is.
True for the first example, but in the second one Russ started the fight out of pique, and then gave up when he realised that he couldn't win.
He quite explicitly laughed because he thought it was silly.
It was silly. Russ attacked the Lion and they fought for three days, all because Russ was upset that the Lion killed the Tyrant of Dulan first. Silly Russ started a silly fight he couldn't win, and got slapped down because after three days the Lion didn't find it funny.
So the lion beats russ to the goal and then beats russ and then beats him again.
For what ever reason lion won the combat because of his single minded resolve to complete the mission no matter what. This is the nature of the dark angles. I think the lion is definitely the best warrior of all the primarchs. Magnus would beat him but only cos of his psychic powers.
mrFickle wrote: So the lion beats russ to the goal and then beats russ and then beats him again.
For what ever reason lion won the combat because of his single minded resolve to complete the mission no matter what. This is the nature of the dark angles. I think the lion is definitely the best warrior of all the primarchs. Magnus would beat him but only cos of his psychic powers.
I wonder about that. Specifically Lion v Magnus. The assumption is always Magnus wins because 'best psyker like, evah' but the Lion stood against a Lord of Change with just a sword, spent his pre-Knight years in a forest hunting what is generally accepted chaos-infused beasts, heck in the latest Primarchs book he's co-ordinated an assault on a psychic heavy race/opponent and beats it down through force of will.
Not saying Magnus can't win, just it would be a curious encounter given the Lion's track record of hunting monsters and killing them.
mrFickle wrote: So the lion beats russ to the goal and then beats russ and then beats him again.
For what ever reason lion won the combat because of his single minded resolve to complete the mission no matter what. This is the nature of the dark angles.
The nature of the Dark Angles is to be as obtuse as possible.
mrFickle wrote: So the lion beats russ to the goal and then beats russ and then beats him again.
For what ever reason lion won the combat because of his single minded resolve to complete the mission no matter what. This is the nature of the dark angles.
The nature of the Dark Angles is to be as obtuse as possible.
*polite cough* Angels not Angles *polite cough*
And to be so irritating, you just want to hit them. Its like the Lion grew up alone in the wild fighting off wild chaos beasts or something.
Since the Lion only beat Russ when Russ let his guard completely down. In the first fight there was no clear winner until Russ let his guard down, thinking the fight over. In the second fight Russ basically tried to commit suicide by brother. Lets just call it a draw and stop the trolling.
Onto the new forgeworld model, which this thread is about, I like the model. I like the bearded head. The scene reminds me of a horror movie where the monster (Lion'el Jonson) kills the victims one by one, where they try and fail to put him down.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As said above, he's a 30k model not a 40k one, just like Angron, Horus, Perty, Alpharius, Sanguinius, Dorn, Fulgrim, Corax, Kurze, Russ, Ferrus, Lorgar, or Vulkan.
Why were people expecting 40k rules for a Primarch branded with 30k marketing? Is the same said for things like the Interemptors and Knights Cenobium?
Because he is literally not only alive in 40K per canon but also basically awake?
The real question is why anyone would assume that he won't be appearing in 40K at some point. He will.
Yes, but why this model? He clearly shares more in common with the 30k aesthetic, and it's not like GW to use their 30k Primarch models for 40k. Why the jump to conclusions that an ostensibly 30k sculpt would be usable in other games?
I'm not doubting that the Lion *could* come back in 40k, but they won't be using that model for it, I can assure you.
40k might be a bigger market, but Primarchs are far more of a 30k thing than a 40k one. Primarchs were around in 30k (in model form) way before they were in 40k.
mrFickle wrote: So the lion beats russ to the goal and then beats russ and then beats him again.
For what ever reason lion won the combat because of his single minded resolve to complete the mission no matter what. This is the nature of the dark angles.
The nature of the Dark Angles is to be as obtuse as possible.
mrFickle wrote: So the lion beats russ to the goal and then beats russ and then beats him again.
For what ever reason lion won the combat because of his single minded resolve to complete the mission no matter what. This is the nature of the dark angles.
The nature of the Dark Angles is to be as obtuse as possible.
mrFickle wrote: I think the lion is definitely the best warrior of all the primarchs. Magnus would beat him but only cos of his psychic powers.
Lol no. This is absolutely never mentioned by anyone. Horus, Sanguinius, Angron, Fulgrim are all far better duelists than the lion. Unless you are defining warrior in this context as servant of the Emperor in which case I'd still strongly question your statement
mrFickle wrote: I think the lion is definitely the best warrior of all the primarchs. Magnus would beat him but only cos of his psychic powers.
Lol no. This is absolutely never mentioned by anyone. Horus, Sanguinius, Angron, Fulgrim are all far better duelists than the lion. Unless you are defining warrior in this context as servant of the Emperor in which case I'd still strongly question your statement
Angron isn't a duelist. Sanguinius nearly every other Primarch respected and expected to lose against 1-on-1. You're right that there's very little mention of him winning duels against the others (apart from Russ and Konrad).
Heck I'd not even call Horus a duelist. That's Fulgrim and Saunguinius' thing.
Now would I expect the Lion to win 1-on-1 against most of the other Primarchs? Sure. The ones he probably can't beat: Sanguinius, maybe Fulgrim (we wont ever know), Vulkan (assuming Vulkan plays the long game and the Lion doesn't account for that so probably a stalemate), Guilliman (only in rematches after Guilliman worked out why he lost last time, maybe).
mrFickle wrote: I think the lion is definitely the best warrior of all the primarchs. Magnus would beat him but only cos of his psychic powers.
Lol no. This is absolutely never mentioned by anyone. Horus, Sanguinius, Angron, Fulgrim are all far better duelists than the lion. Unless you are defining warrior in this context as servant of the Emperor in which case I'd still strongly question your statement
Angron isn't a duelist.
Nonsense: Angron is described by many Primarchs as one of the most deadly amongst them, I am talking about fluff not rules. Corax describes him as one of the strongest primarchs, Erebus and Horus say that amongst the Loyalists only Sanguinius would have a hope at stopping Angron. In Betrayer he soundly defeats Russ in a duel forcing him to crawl away through the mud with his boot on his throat, in the same book Angron destroys Guilliman as well while wielding unpowered, unupgraded chainswords vs 2 powered gauntlets to the amazement of all involved. The surrounding Astartes even note that despite Angron's broken state Guilliman doesn't stand a chance against him, he too is forced to crawl away in defeat, the book even states "for the second time a primarch crawled away before his brother". Angron is a gladiator, thats his thing. Duels are exactly where he wants to be.
Sanguinius nearly every other Primarch respected and expected to lose against 1-on-1. You're right that there's very little mention of him winning duels against the others (apart from Russ and Konrad).
I'd agree with that, to me Sanguinius is the best duellist outside of strengthened Horus. I still think hes only about 60/40 with Angron though. I can't remember which book its in, maybe a Corax one but he describes Sanguinius as their best weapon against Angron, he states that he is the primarch with the best "chance" of defeating him
Heck I'd not even call Horus a duelist. That's Fulgrim and Saunguinius' thing.
Fulgrims a duellist because he kills Ferrus Manus? Fulgrims style certainly suits the duelist vibe but he is not on a par with Horus, hell Fulgrim even starts losing to Perturabo in Angel Exterminatus, even the Great Khan frightens Fulgrim. Horus' entire way of war, his ethos to battle (duels included) that is built up throughout every novel he is featured in show what a merciless and efficient fighter he is. I know we are not discussing rules here but I believe his "disabling strike" rule perfectly encapsulates his style, its identical to how he fights against the Emperor in the WD excerpt of their battle. He disables his opponent, slowly dismantling their combat potential without outright killing them - he cuts the Emperor's wrist tendons making him drop his sword first, breaks his spine, tears off his arm. Horus is an absolutely devastating force. I believe Corax ranks him as the strongest Primarch but I could be wrong there. Nonetheless in addition to his brutal fighting style he wields arguably the best wargear amonst the primarch's with his armour being indisputably the finest and the Worldbreaker having been forged by the Emperor himself. He also has feats of battering a transfigured Lorgar into submission (lol) and soundly dismantling Russ. Admittedly Russ almost does nearly kill him but that is heavily implied to be due to the power of the spear in reaction to the Chaos forces now within him and is a lucky, desperate strike after he has been mauled. He is also blinded by his arrogance and newfound powers. I believe a rational Horus Lupercal would have killed Russ exactly as Loken (who has seen both Primarch's fight extensively) predicted.
Now would I expect the Lion to win 1-on-1 against most of the other Primarchs? Sure. The ones he probably can't beat: Sanguinius, maybe Fulgrim (we wont ever know), Vulkan (assuming Vulkan plays the long game and the Lion doesn't account for that so probably a stalemate), Guilliman (only in rematches after Guilliman worked out why he lost last time, maybe).
Why? Other than simple fanboying, I haven't heard any particularly impressive 1v1 feats of the Lion and none of the others ever describe him as being top tier. Angron is explicitly implied multiple times to be beyond him, Fulgrim - no idea, Horus would slap him about. A few borderline friendly bouts with Russ where he wins by a cheap shot is hardly proof of him being top tier imo
Yazima wrote:Nonsense: Angron is described by many Primarchs as one of the most deadly amongst them, I am talking about fluff not rules. Corax describes him as one of the strongest primarchs, Erebus and Horus say that amongst the Loyalists only Sanguinius would have a hope at stopping Angron. In Betrayer he soundly defeats Russ in a duel forcing him to crawl away through the mud with his boot on his throat, in the same book Angron destroys Guilliman as well while wielding unpowered, unupgraded chainswords vs 2 powered gauntlets to the amazement of all involved. The surrounding Astartes even note that despite Angron's broken state Guilliman doesn't stand a chance against him, he too is forced to crawl away in defeat, the book even states "for the second time a primarch crawled away before his brother". Angron is a gladiator, thats his thing. Duels are exactly where he wants to be.
While I do absolutely agree that Angron is an absolute beast of a melee Primarch (not being so much a duellist as combat blender), I do want to just clarify the Guilliman fight in Betrayer.
Guilliman is one Primarch, still recovering from extensive void exposure (Lorgar literally notes how Guilliman's skin is unnaturally pale and almost blue/purple as a result), facing off against both Lorgar and Angron at the same time. And, more tellingly, Guilliman does manage to land some pretty nasty hits on Lorgar and Angron both.
"Sparks sprayed from Roboute’s raised gauntlets as he struggled to ward off blow after blow. He was beaten. He was down. Wounds painted him, a palette of proud defeat. Even now, his warriors were fighting to retrieve him. With the scarring across his armour and the sense of pain bleeding from his mind, Lorgar reckoned his brother would be lucky to ever walk again. Angron looked little better. Already an icon of mutilated majesty, huge rents and gashes marked his flesh from the knuckles of Guilliman’s gauntlets."
While Angron definitely won the fight, it wasn't a curbstomping. And, again, it was a 2v1, and by this point, Angron wasn't exactly far from Daemon Princedom. In fact, it's some of Guilliman's attacks that actually push Angron over the edge (smashing the chain of skulls on Angron's breastplate).
And, while Angron is definitely in that top tier of Primarch combatants, we shouldn't forget that Perturabo royally messes with Daemon Angron.
Any Primarch could've beaten any other Primarch, even multiple other Primarchs, if the plot needed it to happen.
99.999% of the time, it'll always end in some type of stalemate or draw in any type of Primarch vs. Primarch conflict we've seen or will see in the books and other Black Library material out there, simply because there isn't a whole lot of genuine, one-side-gets-wasted beat-downs in the half page or so of original Heresy fluff this is all based on, and those have all pretty much been covered (except Horus vs. Sanguinius at the very end, admittedly).
Yazima wrote:Nonsense: Angron is described by many Primarchs as one of the most deadly amongst them, I am talking about fluff not rules. Corax describes him as one of the strongest primarchs, Erebus and Horus say that amongst the Loyalists only Sanguinius would have a hope at stopping Angron. In Betrayer he soundly defeats Russ in a duel forcing him to crawl away through the mud with his boot on his throat, in the same book Angron destroys Guilliman as well while wielding unpowered, unupgraded chainswords vs 2 powered gauntlets to the amazement of all involved. The surrounding Astartes even note that despite Angron's broken state Guilliman doesn't stand a chance against him, he too is forced to crawl away in defeat, the book even states "for the second time a primarch crawled away before his brother". Angron is a gladiator, thats his thing. Duels are exactly where he wants to be.
While I do absolutely agree that Angron is an absolute beast of a melee Primarch (not being so much a duellist as combat blender), I do want to just clarify the Guilliman fight in Betrayer.
Guilliman is one Primarch, still recovering from extensive void exposure (Lorgar literally notes how Guilliman's skin is unnaturally pale and almost blue/purple as a result), facing off against both Lorgar and Angron at the same time. And, more tellingly, Guilliman does manage to land some pretty nasty hits on Lorgar and Angron both.
"Sparks sprayed from Roboute’s raised gauntlets as he struggled to ward off blow after blow. He was beaten. He was down. Wounds painted him, a palette of proud defeat. Even now, his warriors were fighting to retrieve him. With the scarring across his armour and the sense of pain bleeding from his mind, Lorgar reckoned his brother would be lucky to ever walk again. Angron looked little better. Already an icon of mutilated majesty, huge rents and gashes marked his flesh from the knuckles of Guilliman’s gauntlets."
While Angron definitely won the fight, it wasn't a curbstomping. And, again, it was a 2v1, and by this point, Angron wasn't exactly far from Daemon Princedom. In fact, it's some of Guilliman's attacks that actually push Angron over the edge (smashing the chain of skulls on Angron's breastplate).
And, while Angron is definitely in that top tier of Primarch combatants, we shouldn't forget that Perturabo royally messes with Daemon Angron.
Yes, but the part I am referencing is Angron vs Guilliman alone. 2v1 is actually arguably harder for Angron, he has to worry about protecting Lorgar/Lorgar's mistakes rather than focusing on rip and tear. I take into account your points and they are valid, however Angron's fighting style generally pays little regard to his own protection - its the same with his legion as in their battle with the Space Wolves. When Angron fights he takes hits, he bleeds yet at the end he is standing and his opponent is not, its the exact same principle with his world eaters. At the end of the fight, if it had reached its natural conclusion, there would be world eaters standing, albeit battered and Primarch-less but there would be no wolves. I think all the more impressive is the fact that Angron was fighting Gulliman with CHAINSWORDS. Unpowered, unupgraded chainswords that were explicitly stated to be spitting teeth all fight, that is not an insignificant factor, its like fighting against a steel greatsword with a piece of wood. In the same book Kharn talks about the immense difficulty of using an axe against a dueling sword, imagine the challenge of meeting a primarch-sized, activated powerfist with a friggin chainsword, the strength and stamina that must take is mind boggling. And Angron won, handily. Theres a quote where the old chapter Master of the War Hounds Lorkhe admires how unstoppable his pimarch is saying that despite his power Guilliman has "no chance" against Angron. Oh and just to note Angron 'technically' defeated Leman Russ in single combat with his bare hands. Angrons blade broke and he proceeded to still beat his armed opponent into submission. Yes he took hits and was pretty badly torn up but its nothing he can't take, I mean this is the guy who was buried under thousands of tons of rubble, dug himself 50m underground with nothing but a pair of chainaxes tearing his body apart in the process, was stepped on by a titan. He can take a beating and walk away
Also being daemonic does not necessarily translate to greater power, they gain immortality but essentially become slaves body and soul to the dark gods. From what I've seen Angron, Mortarion and Fulgrim all appear far weaker in their Daemonic forms than their Emperor-given forms. Fulgrim and Angron are both beaten by Perty while in daemon form, Mortarion loses to a friggin Grey Knight GM. Becoming daemonic has its advantages and disadvantages
Does Angron actually cover for Lorgar though? He doesn't seem the type to go for protecting your comrades and Lorgar doesn't stand out as worth protecting either.
pm713 wrote: Does Angron actually cover for Lorgar though? He doesn't seem the type to go for protecting your comrades and Lorgar doesn't stand out as worth protecting either.
He actively saves him multiple times throughout the book even showing concern the second time. He saves him from being crushed by a titan after he is incapacitated by its plasma blast gun by holding its leg up in the air and he saves him another time as a daemonic primarch from a plot by the World Eaters librarian core to kill Lorgar. So yes
pm713 wrote: Does Angron actually cover for Lorgar though? He doesn't seem the type to go for protecting your comrades and Lorgar doesn't stand out as worth protecting either.
He actively saves him multiple times throughout the book even showing concern the second time. He saves him from being crushed by a titan after he is incapacitated by its plasma blast gun by holding its leg up in the air and he saves him another time as a daemonic primarch from a plot by the World Eaters librarian core to kill Lorgar. So yes
Every time I learn about Lorgar I walk away thinking he should have just stopped trying. Why did the Librarians want him dead?
Yazima wrote:Yes, but the part I am referencing is Angron vs Guilliman alone. 2v1 is actually arguably harder for Angron, he has to worry about protecting Lorgar/Lorgar's mistakes rather than focusing on rip and tear.
Eh, Lorgar doesn't really get in Angron's way much. Guilliman pretty much takes out Lorgar, gets bogged down by Angron, and then has to contend with the pair of them. There isn't really a case of Angron consiously defending Lorgar.
And Angron won, handily. Theres a quote where the old chapter Master of the War Hounds Lorkhe admires how unstoppable his pimarch is saying that despite his power Guilliman has "no chance" against Angron.
I'm not sure I'd go that far. As my excerpt says, Guilliman gave as good as he got - Guilliman was definitely losing/defeated, but it wasn't one-sided.
Yazima wrote:he saves him another time as a daemonic primarch from a plot by the World Eaters librarian core to kill Lorgar. So yes
Eh, I don't think he saves Lorgar there out of love or kindness. He saves him more because he sees his Librarians as a threat to him and just wants them dead.
pm713 wrote:Why did the Librarians want him dead?
Because he was leading the ritual turning Angron into a Daemon Prince.
Can't say too much as I don't remember the exact passage, however, in a 3 way duel one weaker party will usually affect the performance of the other. I don't seem to remember the entire duel blow-by-blow being mapped out. Also Guilliman doesn't take Lorgar out, he consciously steps back of his own will and begins the climax of the ritual after Guilliman crushes the skulls around Angrons waist.
Unfortunately the ebook is on my ipad which now won't turn on so I can't find the passage - a great shame since Betrayer is a great book imo. But I distinctly remember a passage where Chapter Master Lorkhe, a Terran born and highly experienced astarte, notes that Guilliman stands "no chace" against Angron. That seems fairly one-sided to me, even with the distinct gear advantage which you've chosen to not respond to and I'd argue its a salient factor (thats not a dig btw). As I previously argued, Angrons style is not self preservation, he leaves engagements with simple Astartes covered in blood and scars. He is all out attack with no regard for defense, I believe Guilliman managed to cause damage because Angron allowed him to, not that he wanted to take it, he's just so focused on offense that he forsakes defense and it wins him the duels. I think ANY primarch could tear Angron up, but very few could last long enough to win, let alone finish the job
I never suggested it was love or kindness, he saves him nonetheless and multiple times at that, probably to repay the debt of him excavating him from underground
While not his greatest fan, I have always felt that if any Primarch should be the 'best combatant', it should be Angron, for no other reason than that he seems utterly useless at everything else.
harlokin wrote: While not his greatest fan, I have always felt that if any Primarch should be the 'best combatant', it should be Angron, for no other reason than that he seems utterly useless at everything else.
The dudes fairly eloquent and clever when he wants to be, he verbally destroys Russ during their encounter and justifies his case fairly well
mrFickle wrote: I have to admit I did not realise, when I started this thread, that there was a different model for RG in 30 & 40.
I could say why are GW releasing a new 30k lion model when many people are waiting for the other 40k primarchs to be released. It’s a bigger market.
But maybe GW aren’t actually doing that
Forgeworld might be owned by GW, but they are not run by the same teams. You might as well ask why GW are releaseing Aelves in AoS when they still have outdated Craftworld Aeldari in 40k. FW releases have absolutely no bearing on GW releases.
In any case, it's been pretty clear for most of a decade that FW were going to release all of the Primarchs eventually.
Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
mrFickle wrote: Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Most of them.
You’ll find all of them have access to low AP and high strength.
WS really doesn’t matter past that point either.
Still have to worry about concussive though.
Worst rules wise would be Angron as he’s severely outdated now.
Either way, no primarch will kill another one for a while.
Expect a long and drawn out fight before one of them dies.
Don't titans do those automatic no save, no inv hits? maybe a primarch has one of those. I could imagine magnus or horus having some zappy thing that does 8th instant wounds plus.
Karol wrote: Don't titans do those automatic no save, no inv hits? maybe a primarch has one of those. I could imagine magnus or horus having some zappy thing that does 8th instant wounds plus.
Strength D can do multiple wounds, but no, they don’t have them.
Magnus can have a strength D shooting attack but you can’t shoot in combat.
mrFickle wrote: Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar
Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus
Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus,
Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Certain Primarchs have a lot of special rules, such as "Can never be wounded on a better then 4+", or "During a challenge, this model's Invulnerable save increases to a 3+", or "If this model charges, it always strikes first regardless of Initiative values". Some of the rules are "During the subsequent round of combat, decrease the WS of the opponent's WS by -1", etc. etc. Magnus was bonkers broken when he first came out because of the psykic powers he could select. That list has been really nerfed, and he is now merely "good" (still top 5). Russ, if he could live to round two or more of combat, would win because of his stat decrements to his opponents (it's been nerfed a bit, but still very powerful). Sanguinius is still top dog- his high initiative, WS 9, and special rules when he charges and the first round of close combat means he can possibly one round just about any other Primarch. And he will always get the charge due to his rules. Not to mention he is the best hit and run character in the game.
So yeah, when we see the Lion's stat line, it's pretty average for the Primarchs except his WS 8 and Initiative 7 (only 2-3 Primarchs have an Initiative of 7, most are 6). His 2+/4++ once per phase rerollable is OP, combined with a Plasma gun that is appearently a Salvo weapon that causes blindness. The Wolf Blade is stupid good because of one rule: Fleshbane. This means The Lion always wounds on a 2+. So at worst, he will need a 4+ to hit, and always wounds on a 2+ with an AP 2 weapon. That just about automatically makes him one of the best melee Primarchs in 30K. If they took away Fleshbane or made the Wolf Blade unwieldly, then he would be in a fair, balanced spot. As previewed by Forge World, he is easily top 3 now. Maybe #2 for close combat master after Sanguinius. And that's a HUGE disconnect from the lore and everything we know about Lion el' Johnson.
mrFickle wrote: Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar
Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus
Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus,
Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Certain Primarchs have a lot of special rules, such as "Can never be wounded on a better then 4+", or "During a challenge, this model's Invulnerable save increases to a 3+", or "If this model charges, it always strikes first regardless of Initiative values". Some of the rules are "During the subsequent round of combat, decrease the WS of the opponent's WS by -1", etc. etc. Magnus was bonkers broken when he first came out because of the psykic powers he could select. That list has been really nerfed, and he is now merely "good" (still top 5). Russ, if he could live to round two or more of combat, would win because of his stat decrements to his opponents (it's been nerfed a bit, but still very powerful). Sanguinius is still top dog- his high initiative, WS 9, and special rules when he charges and the first round of close combat means he can possibly one round just about any other Primarch. And he will always get the charge due to his rules. Not to mention he is the best hit and run character in the game.
So yeah, when we see the Lion's stat line, it's pretty average for the Primarchs except his WS 8 and Initiative 7 (only 2-3 Primarchs have an Initiative of 7, most are 6). His 2+/4++ once per phase rerollable is OP, combined with a Plasma gun that is appearently a Salvo weapon that causes blindness. The Wolf Blade is stupid good because of one rule: Fleshbane. This means The Lion always wounds on a 2+. So at worst, he will need a 4+ to hit, and always wounds on a 2+ with an AP 2 weapon. That just about automatically makes him one of the best melee Primarchs in 30K. If they took away Fleshbane or made the Wolf Blade unwieldly, then he would be in a fair, balanced spot. As previewed by Forge World, he is easily top 3 now. Maybe #2 for close combat master after Sanguinius. And that's a HUGE disconnect from the lore and everything we know about Lion el' Johnson.
I'm sure Horus would beat him 1v1, I haven't done the mathhammer but so far from experience absolutely nothing I've tested against him can beat him now Scoria's been nerfed. Disabling strike is just too powerful
Someone did the math-hammer for this yesterday, in short with tthe Wold Blade + his save he wins 3/4's of the duels handily and only really loses to Horus and a few others
Taken from Facebook
Spoiler:
So, this was done:
Lion Math Hammer (wolfblade): (Nobody using IWND)
VS Corax (using d3 extra attacks):
Round 1:
Both Strike same time. Corvus hits 4 times, wounds 3. Lion saves 2 due to re roll.
I'm sure Horus would beat him 1v1, I haven't done the mathhammer but so far from experience absolutely nothing I've tested against him can beat him now Scoria's been nerfed. Disabling strike is just too powerful
As a Sons of Horus player, I wish I could agree! Disabling Strike is awesome, but in this case, the only thing it would do is allow Horus to hit The Lion on a 3+ after two rounds of close combat. The WORST to hit roll the Lion ever needs is a 4+ due to The Lion's special rule "Absolute Focus". They both wound on a 2+, so relative strengths is negated. As the Lions takes wounds, he gets more attacks. The advantage here might be to Horus with his 3++ vs. the Lions 4++... but it's rerollable, so effectively gives him a 2++. I really think it would be a close match, and could go either way depending on the dice. My point here, is that there is NOTHING in the fluff AT ALL that says The Lion should be able to challenge Horus one on one and win. Give him a good fight, maybe. But win against the Warmaster? This is when the passing of Alan Bligh is really, really showing how badly FW is screwing up HH. And it all started with Book 7: Inferno.
I'm sure Horus would beat him 1v1, I haven't done the mathhammer but so far from experience absolutely nothing I've tested against him can beat him now Scoria's been nerfed. Disabling strike is just too powerful
As a Sons of Horus player, I wish I could agree! Disabling Strike is awesome, but in this case, the only thing it would do is allow Horus to hit The Lion on a 3+ after two rounds of close combat. The WORST to hit roll the Lion ever needs is a 4+ due to The Lion's special rule "Absolute Focus". They both wound on a 2+, so relative strengths is negated. As the Lions takes wounds, he gets more attacks. The advantage here might be to Horus with his 3++ vs. the Lions 4++... but it's rerollable, so effectively gives him a 2++. I really think it would be a close match, and could go either way depending on the dice. My point here, is that there is NOTHING in the fluff AT ALL that says The Lion should be able to challenge Horus one on one and win. Give him a good fight, maybe. But win against the Warmaster? This is when the passing of Alan Bligh is really, really showing how badly FW is screwing up HH. And it all started with Book 7: Inferno.
I absolutely agree, I don't have an overwhelming affinity for Horus but from the fluff he should absolutely be the top dog. I believe the mathhammer supports him coming out on top over the Lion the majority of the time but frankly El Johnsons rules are ridiculous and totally out of character. Rules shouldn't be written in a way that actively deny the defining traits of other major characters, at least not in the 30k setting. "always hit on a 4+" seems like a contrived way of making the Lion stand up to his brothers and completely contradicts everything that makes Horus unique and special. Why should this devastating fighting style that utterly defines Horus' personality (and a fantastic rule if i do say so myself) be countered by the Lion of all people, let alone by a cop out like "battle focus". I dislike it for the same reason that I dislike Russ' armour, its too major and has no basis in the setting
mrFickle wrote: Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus, Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Certain Primarchs have a lot of special rules, such as "Can never be wounded on a better then 4+", or "During a challenge, this model's Invulnerable save increases to a 3+", or "If this model charges, it always strikes first regardless of Initiative values". Some of the rules are "During the subsequent round of combat, decrease the WS of the opponent's WS by -1", etc. etc. Magnus was bonkers broken when he first came out because of the psykic powers he could select. That list has been really nerfed, and he is now merely "good" (still top 5). Russ, if he could live to round two or more of combat, would win because of his stat decrements to his opponents (it's been nerfed a bit, but still very powerful). Sanguinius is still top dog- his high initiative, WS 9, and special rules when he charges and the first round of close combat means he can possibly one round just about any other Primarch. And he will always get the charge due to his rules. Not to mention he is the best hit and run character in the game.
So yeah, when we see the Lion's stat line, it's pretty average for the Primarchs except his WS 8 and Initiative 7 (only 2-3 Primarchs have an Initiative of 7, most are 6). His 2+/4++ once per phase rerollable is OP, combined with a Plasma gun that is appearently a Salvo weapon that causes blindness. The Wolf Blade is stupid good because of one rule: Fleshbane. This means The Lion always wounds on a 2+. So at worst, he will need a 4+ to hit, and always wounds on a 2+ with an AP 2 weapon. That just about automatically makes him one of the best melee Primarchs in 30K. If they took away Fleshbane or made the Wolf Blade unwieldly, then he would be in a fair, balanced spot. As previewed by Forge World, he is easily top 3 now. Maybe #2 for close combat master after Sanguinius. And that's a HUGE disconnect from the lore and everything we know about Lion el' Johnson.
How is the Lion being one of the best primarch a "disconnect from the lore" ? That's absolutly false, in the lore he is presented as one of the best primarch, a rival to Horus and putting many of his brothers to shame. Even in comparaison to Horus, the Lion does not appear weaker in any way in the lore. Imo you don't know much about The Lion's lore.
How is the Lion being one of the best primarch a "disconnect from the lore" ? That's absolutly false, in the lore he is presented as one of the best primarch, a rival to Horus and putting many of his brothers to shame. Even in comparaison to Horus, the Lion does not appear weaker in any way in the lore.
When is he ever presented as a high level duelist? Horus, Angron, Fulgrim, Sanguinius etc all have multiple mentions/feats which place them as the finest warriors. The Lion has next to none, save his own sense of self worth. As a commander, sure, he was believed by many to be a viable candidate for warmaster and smarted when it was given to Horus hence why we believe he should be more of a force multiplier. His rules place him as one of the strongest Primarchs in a 1v1 which has very little basis in fluff, he beat Fulgrim, he beats Sanguinius, his rules counter Horus' unique and highly fluffy disabling strike. Why? There is no justification for this in lore, its blatant power creep
How is the Lion being one of the best primarch a "disconnect from the lore" ? That's absolutly false, in the lore he is presented as one of the best primarch, a rival to Horus and putting many of his brothers to shame. Even in comparaison to Horus, the Lion does not appear weaker in any way in the lore.
When is he ever presented as a high level duelist? Horus, Angron, Fulgrim, Sanguinius etc all have multiple mentions/feats which place them as the finest warriors. The Lion has next to none, save his own sense of self worth. As a commander, sure, he was believed by many to be a viable candidate for warmaster and smarted when it was given to Horus hence why we believe he should be more of a force multiplier. His rules place him as one of the strongest Primarchs in a 1v1 which has very little basis in fluff, he beat Fulgrim, he beats Sanguinius, his rules counter Horus' unique and highly fluffy disabling strike. Why? There is no justification for this in lore, its blatant power creep
His entire lore is that he fought chaos tainted beast in the wood from his first age. He fought a duel with Russ to a stalemate before the Heresy : are you telling me that Russ is not one of the greatest duelist too ? And Macaldor described him as some kind of apex predator even amongst his fellow primarchs :
"Of all the Primarchs, save perhaps Mortarion, Lion El'Jonson stands apart. Partially this is due to his taciturn nature -- a brooding silence hangs over him at all times. Yet there is something more...something buried beneath his noble exterior. Perhaps this is a result of his upbringing, growing to maturity alone in the monster-ridden forests of Caliban. Even at a council of war, the Lion moves like an apex predator. He is always watching, always planning, always hunting. He unnerves even his brothers." — Remembrances of Malcador the Sigillite
In the lore, what is indeed critical to his identity is that everything he did/does is shrouded in mystery as he does not explain himself nor does he search for recognition, unlike his fellow primarch (and unlike Horus specifically). So yes nobody mention that he is a great duelist, unlike his other more flamboyant brothers. Russ is very similar to him in this regard - the role of both Russ and the Lion in the Rangdan genocide enlight this trait they have in common. Plus the lore of 40K is FULL of exemple of "good duelist" getting trashed by less flamboyant but more effective fighters.
How is the Lion being one of the best primarch a "disconnect from the lore" ? That's absolutly false, in the lore he is presented as one of the best primarch, a rival to Horus and putting many of his brothers to shame. Even in comparaison to Horus, the Lion does not appear weaker in any way in the lore.
When is he ever presented as a high level duelist?
How is the Lion being one of the best primarch a "disconnect from the lore" ? That's absolutly false, in the lore he is presented as one of the best primarch, a rival to Horus and putting many of his brothers to shame. Even in comparaison to Horus, the Lion does not appear weaker in any way in the lore.
When is he ever presented as a high level duelist? Horus, Angron, Fulgrim, Sanguinius etc all have multiple mentions/feats which place them as the finest warriors. The Lion has next to none, save his own sense of self worth. As a commander, sure, he was believed by many to be a viable candidate for warmaster and smarted when it was given to Horus hence why we believe he should be more of a force multiplier. His rules place him as one of the strongest Primarchs in a 1v1 which has very little basis in fluff, he beat Fulgrim, he beats Sanguinius, his rules counter Horus' unique and highly fluffy disabling strike. Why? There is no justification for this in lore, its blatant power creep
His entire lore is that he fought chaos tainted beast in the wood from his first age. He fought a duel with Russ to a stalemate before the Heresy : are you telling me that Russ is not one of the greatest duelist too ? And Macaldor described him as some kind of apex predator even amongst his fellow primarchs :
"Of all the Primarchs, save perhaps Mortarion, Lion El'Jonson stands apart. Partially this is due to his taciturn nature -- a brooding silence hangs over him at all times. Yet there is something more...something buried beneath his noble exterior. Perhaps this is a result of his upbringing, growing to maturity alone in the monster-ridden forests of Caliban. Even at a council of war, the Lion moves like an apex predator. He is always watching, always planning, always hunting. He unnerves even his brothers." — Remembrances of Malcador the Sigillite
And Kurze grew up a violent criminal who hunted from the shadows, Angron was attacked by a party of aspect Eldar, killed them all at age 5 and was raised on a gladiator hellscape fighting techno-barbarians, Mortarion battled through plague mists, Vulcan fought great dragon-like monsters. Whats your point? every primarch was raised on a diet of war, that justifies nothing. He fought Russ and couldn't break him, clearly neither were fighting to kill, that is entirely different. The Lion only won with a sucker punch when Russ relented. Angron beats Russ into the dirt barehanded, Magnus is soundly beating Russ before a "blind" flail hits his eye and incapacitates him, Russ isn't the be all and end all. Certainly drawing him in a borderline friendly bout doesn't show much.
Wow Malcador takes note of Lion El'Johnson unsettling his brothers with the way he isolates himself. That is social niceties and nothing more, the Great Khan freaks out Fulgrim, Magnus unsettles many of his brothers and Kurze is disgusted by Lorgar and his sons, this also proves absolutely nothing, Where at any point does this quote reference combat potential? It's completely meaningless. Multiple sources (from Primarch's themselves) actively endorse Angron, Sanguinius and Horus as being far beyond the Lion. Magnus and Lorgar note that only Sanguinius amonst the loyalists has a hope of defeating Angron in a duel, Corax describes Angron as one of the most fierce Primarch's, Horus is defined as the most powerful primarch in many instances. Where does anyone talk about the Lion like this? Never.
As a note, the Primarchs would often duel and spar against one another in the palace on Terra when they were reunited (before the discovery of Alpharius), many of them had a fairly good understanding of the others capabilities. In addition, these are masters of war, combat experts. They would be capable of analyzing one anothers fighting styles and capabilities very quickly. The Lion may have kept himself to himself but he was hardly one for keeping his light under a bushel
How is the Lion being one of the best primarch a "disconnect from the lore" ? That's absolutly false, in the lore he is presented as one of the best primarch, a rival to Horus and putting many of his brothers to shame. Even in comparaison to Horus, the Lion does not appear weaker in any way in the lore.
When is he ever presented as a high level duelist? Horus, Angron, Fulgrim, Sanguinius etc all have multiple mentions/feats which place them as the finest warriors. The Lion has next to none, save his own sense of self worth. As a commander, sure, he was believed by many to be a viable candidate for warmaster and smarted when it was given to Horus hence why we believe he should be more of a force multiplier. His rules place him as one of the strongest Primarchs in a 1v1 which has very little basis in fluff, he beat Fulgrim, he beats Sanguinius, his rules counter Horus' unique and highly fluffy disabling strike. Why? There is no justification for this in lore, its blatant power creep
His entire lore is that he fought chaos tainted beast in the wood from his first age. He fought a duel with Russ to a stalemate before the Heresy : are you telling me that Russ is not one of the greatest duelist too ? And Macaldor described him as some kind of apex predator even amongst his fellow primarchs :
"Of all the Primarchs, save perhaps Mortarion, Lion El'Jonson stands apart. Partially this is due to his taciturn nature -- a brooding silence hangs over him at all times. Yet there is something more...something buried beneath his noble exterior. Perhaps this is a result of his upbringing, growing to maturity alone in the monster-ridden forests of Caliban. Even at a council of war, the Lion moves like an apex predator. He is always watching, always planning, always hunting. He unnerves even his brothers." — Remembrances of Malcador the Sigillite
And Kurze grew up a violent criminal who hunted from the shadows, Angron was attacked by a party of aspect Eldar, killed them all at age 5 and was raised on a gladiator hellscape fighting techno-barbarians, Mortarion battled through plague mists, Vulcan fought great dragon-like monsters. Whats your point? every primarch was raised on a diet of war, that justifies nothing. He fought Russ and couldn't break him, clearly neither were fighting to kill, that is entirely different. The Lion only won with a sucker punch when Russ relented. Angron beats Russ into the dirt [b]barehanded[b], Magnus is soundly beating Russ before a "blind" flail hits his eye and incapacitates him, Russ isn't the be all and end all. Certainly drawing him in a borderline friendly bout doesn't show much.
Wow Malcador takes note of Lion El'Johnson unsettling his brothers with the way he isolates himself. That is social niceties and nothing more, the Great Khan freaks out Fulgrim, Magnus unsettles many of his brothers and Kurze is disgusted by Lorgar and his sons, this also proves absolutely nothing, Where at any point does this quote reference combat potential? It's completely meaningless. Multiple sources (from Primarch's themselves) actively endorse Angron, Sanguinius and Horus as being far beyond the Lion. Magnus and Lorgar note that only Sanguinius amonst the loyalists has a hope of defeating Angron in a duel, Corax describes Angron as one of the most fierce Primarch's, Horus is defined as the most powerful primarch in many instances. Where does anyone talk about the Lion like this? Never.
You brushed aside the word apex predator like it has no meaning at all : the Lion is basically an autist, unable to interract with his brother normally is what you get from that line ? ... The Lion only met Horus once and the scene is written to clearly indicate that the Lion is not inferior to Horus in any way as some of Horus' own men feel the need to take a knee before the Lion even moreso than they do when they face Horus. You're just picking the lore that you wish because you're a Horus fanboy.
Multiple sources (from Primarch's themselves) actively endorse Angron, Sanguinius and Horus as being far beyond the Lion.
Which source ? No primarch actually knows the Lion. You're talking about Russ ?
Isn't he throttled in the first duel with Kurze? Also Kurze is hardly a high level primarch either, is Corax remembered as a fantastic duellist because he beats Lorgar, or Dorn a peak duellist for killing Alpharius/Omegon? This also means very little
Isn't he throttled in the first duel with Kurze? Also Kurze is hardly a high level primarch either, is Corax remembered as a fantastic duellist because he beats Lorgar, or Dorn a peak duellist for killing Alpharius/Omegon? This also means very little
Russ apparently is, and he stated that he didn't think he could best Curze. I put it down to the Primarchs having varying styles, and no one being better overall. You on the other hand are clearly a Horus fan who imagines him to be the 'superbestest', as opposed to what he actually was, the most popular amongst his peers.
You have such a basic understanding of the Lore. Angron is the "most fierce", maybe the strongest primarch next to Vulkan, but he is also described as being too enraged to actually fight efficiently in a duel.
Russ, for exemple, consider him to be an easy primarch to deal with, and despite what you seems to argue, Russ completly plays with him as a lesson during the Ghenna massacre.
Yeah nah, Lion shouldn't be outclassing nearly so many Primarchs, and many of the older ones NEED to be brought up to scale with the newer ones (Angron, Fulgrim, Kurze and Mortarion especially).
The Lion is definitely in the top ten, but top 5? I don't think so. Literally EVERY Primarch could have been fighting chaos tainted beasts in the woods - Ferrus kills a Necron construct with his bare hands, either Fulgrim or Lorgar does similar with an Avatar. The duel between Russ and Lion isn't a proper "to the death", it's an honour duel - and Lion only wins it because Russ gives up. And I'm not a Russ fan, but that wasn't a Lion victory.
Your Malcador quote is good, but it's more just telling us that the other Primarchs see Lion as the weird kid who's always just a little too twitchy. He's definitely formidable, but is he Horus tier good? Absolutely not. Sanguinius? Definitely not. Angron? Don't think so - much as I've said that Angron didn't curbstomp Guilliman at Nuceria, that was because Angron wasn't even armed properly. Even the Khan and Fulgrim I'd be rating higher.
The Lion's strength is his tactical acumen and single-minded determination at the cost of everything else. He sees everything as a threat, and is completely oblivious to tact or doubt, just dealing with things in the most tactically minded way as possible (note that this is different from Guilliman's strategic mastery, who has better statecraft, better civic logistical management, and more diplomacy; and Perturabo's excellent grasp of technology, siegecraft, and combat logistics).
You brushed aside the word apex predator like it has no meaning at all : the Lion is basically an autist, unable to interract with his brother normally is what you get from that line ? ... The Lion only met Horus once and the scene is written to clearly indicate that the Lion is not inferior to Horus in any way as some of Horus' own men feel the need to take a knee before the Lion even moreso than they do when they face Horus.
You're just picking the lore that you wish because you're a Horus fanboy.
And Russ is described as an Apex Predator uncountable times yet he gets laid out by an unarmed Angron, mauled by Horus and knocked out by the Lion. What is the source of this by the way?
Most Astartes feel a sense of awe when they see another Primarch, they are conditioned to their own. Primarchs are glorious, demi-godlike figures. There are multiple occassions of Astartes being overawed by other legions primarchs. I don't understand how that in any way endorses the Lion as Horus' equal. Clearly the Emperor didn't believe it, neither did the majority of other primarchs including sanguinius
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WhiteDog wrote: You have such a basic understanding of the Lore. Angron is the "most fierce", maybe the strongest primarch next to Vulkan, but he is also described as being too enraged to actually fight efficiently in a duel.
Try again, Betrayer completely contradicts what you are saying here, Lorgar and Magnus actively note that the ONLY Loyalist primarch capable of dealing with Angron is Sanguinius. also if you actually bother read back through the thread rather than quickly churning out uninformed replies you'll see that i note that Angron's fighting style is inefficient, he wins nonetheless (every single duel he fights)
Russ, for exemple, consider him to be an easy primarch to deal with, and despite what you seems to argue, Russ completly plays with him as a lesson during the Ghenna massacre.
I dont consider Russ an easy Primarch, he is one of the best, top 10 but not the absolute premium tier. Yes Russ is a vastly superior tactician to Angron and that is evidenced. We are talking about duels ignoring your sidelines into other theaters of war when you can't find any evidence to support your claims. Russ is curbstomped in the duel, which is what we are discussing. Would be nice if you could remain on topic for a change
You guys misjudge the power tier of primarchs because you think the history is the truth. Horus can be described as the most perfect of his brothers, hence why he got the title of Warmaster. He can also be described as the primarch with the most intimate relationship with the Emperor, or the one that knew the most how to protect his own legion and play with his brothers to put himself in the best position. The lore is deep, it has arguments for many things. I too believe that Kurze is one of the best duelist for many reasons, one of those being that he can see the future ... All in all yes there are many arguments to defend the idea that the Lion is indeed an absolute beast of a fighter.
Try again, Betrayer completely contradicts what you are saying here, Lorgar and Magnus actively note that the ONLY Loyalist primarch capable of dealing with Angron is Sanguinius. also if you actually bother read back through the thread rather than quickly churning out uninformed replies you'll see that i note that Angron's fighting style is inefficient, he wins nonetheless (every single duel he fights)
And Lorgar and Magnus obviously never failed in anything and are always right in the lore. Russ vs Angron is not a duel : there's one primarch trying to make another primarch learn something, and he completly outplays him in the process ! Russ vs the Lion was a real duel, not a friendly argument, until Russ understood that it was a stupid fight.
Isn't he throttled in the first duel with Kurze? Also Kurze is hardly a high level primarch either, is Corax remembered as a fantastic duellist because he beats Lorgar, or Dorn a peak duellist for killing Alpharius/Omegon? This also means very little
Russ apparently is, and he stated that he didn't think he could best Curze. I put it down to the Primarchs having varying styles, and no one being better overall.
You on the other hand are clearly a Horus fan who imagines him to be the 'superbestest', as opposed to what he actually was, the most popular amongst his peers.
I am actually not at all, Horus doesn't even rank in my top 3 favorite Primarch's, but I have read a number of novels with Horus and his SoH as titular protagonists/antagonists and have an understanding of their way of war/ethos to battle. To my understanding Horus is simply the best in a single combat situation, he understands all of his brothers strengths and weaknesses, combine that with the SoH's instinct to mercilessly exploit their opponents in any way possible, combine that with the fact that he has the best gear (courtesy of Big E's favoritism) and I think he is the strongest primarch. Would he win in a Legion vs Legion scenario against others? probably not. In an empty room Horus vs any other Primarch I think its him who is walking away though, besides maybe Magnus
WhiteDog wrote:You brushed aside the word apex predator like it has no meaning at all
Malcador's quote says he "moves" like one, not that he is.
It's basically saying that Lion is an incredibly guarded, reserved individual, who constantly radiates predatory energy. That doesn't mean he's necessarily a good fighter. Now, obviously he is, but his movements being described as "apex predator" don't mean much on that.
The Lion only met Horus once and the scene is written to clearly indicate that the Lion is not inferior to Horus in any way as some of Horus' own men feel the need to take a knee before the Lion even moreso than they do when they face Horus.
Eh, I hate to say it, but that's not uncommon amongst a whole range of Primarchs. The same occurs for Sanguinius and Dorn, I believe. It's just the effect that all Primarchs have on people.
You're just picking the lore that you wish because you're a Horus fanboy.
I'm not a Horus fanboy, but even I know when he's the superior Primarch.
Multiple sources (from Primarch's themselves) actively endorse Angron, Sanguinius and Horus as being far beyond the Lion.
Which source ? No primarch actually knows the Lion. You're talking about Russ ?
Can't speak for their source, but Scars indicates that the only two Primarchs who everyone outright admits are wildcards are the Khan and Mortarion. Everyone else pretty much admits that they know everyone's fighting style, and widely agree that Sanguinius and Horus are the best two, but that they don't know Khan and Morty.
Isn't he throttled in the first duel with Kurze? Also Kurze is hardly a high level primarch either, is Corax remembered as a fantastic duellist because he beats Lorgar, or Dorn a peak duellist for killing Alpharius/Omegon? This also means very little
Russ apparently is, and he stated that he didn't think he could best Curze. I put it down to the Primarchs having varying styles, and no one being better overall.
The truly best take.
Trying to compare who was the "best" Primarch is a complete mess given how many cases of certain Primarchs beating others we have, as well as the impressions of characters in-universe. For example, we have Thiel in Unremembered Empire (I think) who makes the claim that Guilliman is in the top 6 strongest Primarchs easily, which even as an Ultramarine fan, I disagree with.
You on the other hand are clearly a Horus fan who imagines him to be the 'superbestest', as opposed to what he actually was, the most popular amongst his peers.
Eh, he was both, just like how Sanguinius was both a duellist without peer, and super duper popular.
At the very least, Lion should not be mathhammer beating Sangy.
WhiteDog wrote:Angron is the "most fierce", maybe the strongest primarch next to Vulkan, but he is also described as being too enraged to actually fight efficiently in a duel.
Unarmed, he beats both Russ and Guilliman.
Russ, for exemple, consider him to be an easy primarch to deal with, and despite what you seems to argue, Russ completly plays with him as a lesson during the Ghenna massacre.
Not really. Russ teaches him a lesson by losing, that doesn't mean he was a better fighter than Angron.
And Russ basically won in a duel against Horus...
A battle largely defined by the Spear of Russ - without that weapon, Russ wouldn't have done nearly so well. And then you have the fight against Magnus, where only a blind flail takes out Magnus' eye, and Magnus still punches out one of Russ' hearts. And that's meant as no disrespect to Russ, I just think that it's not so easy to categorise who the best Primarchs were, beyond Sanguinius and Horus.
Try again, Betrayer completely contradicts what you are saying here, Lorgar and Magnus actively note that the ONLY Loyalist primarch capable of dealing with Angron is Sanguinius. also if you actually bother read back through the thread rather than quickly churning out uninformed replies you'll see that i note that Angron's fighting style is inefficient, he wins nonetheless (every single duel he fights)
And Lorgar and Magnus obviously never failed in anything and are always right in the lore. Russ vs Angron is not a duel : there's one primarch trying to make another primarch learn something, and he completly outplays him in the process ! Russ vs the Lion was a real duel, not a friendly argument, until Russ understood that it was a stupid fight.
Sorry, what?? Have you even read the passage? Russ attempts to persuade Angron down, he asks him why he mutilated his sons, presents his case. Angron gives him his reply and Russ literally launches himself at Angron in rage. Russ attacks Angron, not the other way around. Russ goes in with the intention of teaching Angron a lesson and things escalate far beyond that.
Isn't he throttled in the first duel with Kurze? Also Kurze is hardly a high level primarch either, is Corax remembered as a fantastic duellist because he beats Lorgar, or Dorn a peak duellist for killing Alpharius/Omegon? This also means very little
Russ apparently is, and he stated that he didn't think he could best Curze. I put it down to the Primarchs having varying styles, and no one being better overall.
You on the other hand are clearly a Horus fan who imagines him to be the 'superbestest', as opposed to what he actually was, the most popular amongst his peers.
I am actually not at all, Horus doesn't even rank in my top 3 favorite Primarch's, but I have read a number of novels with Horus and his SoH as titular protagonists/antagonists and have an understanding of their way of war/ethos to battle. To my understanding Horus is simply the best in a single combat situation, he understands all of his brothers strengths and weaknesses, combine that with the SoH's instinct to mercilessly exploit their opponents in any way possible, combine that with the fact that he has the best gear (courtesy of Big E's favoritism) and I think he is the strongest primarch. Would he win in a Legion vs Legion scenario against others? probably not. In an empty room Horus vs any other Primarch I think its him who is walking away though, besides maybe Magnus
Horus speciality is not fighting : he is the best manager. He knows how to use tools efficiently, being his legion or his fellow primarch, and he knows how to place himself in a way that makes him the hero of the story (completly opposite to the Lion). But he does not actually fight that many duels and only win by the end of the heresy, when he is not a simple primarch anymore.
Sorry, what?? Have you even read the passage? Russ attempts to persuade Angron down, he asks him why he mutilated his sons, presents his case. Angron gives him his reply and Russ literally launches himself at Angron in rage. Russ attacks Angron, not the other way around. Russ goes in with the intention of teaching Angron a lesson and things escalate far beyond that.
The fight ends with the entire world eater legion being basically surrounded, readied to be butchered by the SW : Russ used the fight with Angron to put him in this situation and make him understand the folly of his ways.
WhiteDog wrote:You guys misjudge the power tier of primarchs because you think the history is the truth.
On the contrary, I'm taking all the fights we actually see, and judging them. My judgement: it's incredibly difficult to tell which Primarchs are the strongest, because their fights are anything but consistent.
Horus can be described as the most perfect of his brothers, hence why he got the title of Warmaster. He can also be described as the primarch with the most intimate relationship with the Emperor, or the one that knew the most how to protect his own legion and play with his brothers to put himself in the best position.
The lore is deep, it has arguments for many things. I too believe that Kurze is one of the best duelist for many reasons, one of those being that he can see the future ... All in all yes there are many arguments to defend the idea that the Lion is indeed an absolute beast of a fighter.
No-one's saying he's not a beast of a fighter. But it's certainly not clear how high he does rate.
Try again, Betrayer completely contradicts what you are saying here, Lorgar and Magnus actively note that the ONLY Loyalist primarch capable of dealing with Angron is Sanguinius. also if you actually bother read back through the thread rather than quickly churning out uninformed replies you'll see that i note that Angron's fighting style is inefficient, he wins nonetheless (every single duel he fights)
And Lorgar and Magnus obviously never failed in anything and are always right in the lore.
Perhaps so - but, by that same token, the quote you use from Malcador about "apex predator", could that not also be questioned in it's validity?
Russ vs Angron is not a duel : there's one primarch trying to make another primarch learn something, and he completly outplays him in the process !
Again, Russ' outplaying is because his army is stronger. Not by some virtue of his own swordsmanship.
Russ vs the Lion was a real duel, not a friendly argument, until Russ understood that it was a stupid fight.
Doesn't sound like something someone would think in a "real duel". I think you're getting hung up on "friendly argument" - it's not to say they weren't fighting, but they weren't trying to kill eachother.
Horus speciality is not fighting : he is the best manager. He knows how to use tools efficiently, being his legion or his fellow primarch, and he knows how to place himself in a way that makes him the hero of the story (completly opposite to the Lion). But he does not actually fight that many duels and only win by the end of the heresy, when he is not a simple primarch anymore.
It is possible to be a good commander and a good fighter, these are superhuman demi-gods, the pinnacle of humanity, you cannot apply human limitations to them. Oh so your argument for the Lion being stronger/as strong is Horus doesn't have many feats? The Lion has next to no feats either and doesn't share anywhere near the same praise from his brothers that Horus does, double standard much? And yes I know, you're going to claim that as an outsider nobody truly understands him but we are looking at evidence here. The Lion has next to nothing supporting your argument. I still don't understand what you are basing you argument on besides the one quote from Malcador about how he carries himself. Is that it?
Horus speciality is not fighting : he is the best manager. He knows how to use tools efficiently, being his legion or his fellow primarch, and he knows how to place himself in a way that makes him the hero of the story (completly opposite to the Lion). But he does not actually fight that many duels and only win by the end of the heresy, when he is not a simple primarch anymore.
It is possible to be a good commander and a good fighter, these are superhuman demi-gods, the pinnacle of humanity, you cannot apply human limitations to them. Oh so your argument for the Lion being stronger/as strong is Horus doesn't have many feats? The Lion has next to no feats either and doesn't share anywhere near the same praise from his brothers that Horus does, double standard much? And yes I know, you're going to claim that as an outsider nobody truly understands him but we are looking at evidence here. The Lion has next to nothing supporting your argument. I still don't understand what you are basing you argument on besides the one quote from Malcador about how he carries himself. Is that it?
No I'm saying both Horus' strength and flaw was that he wanted to be in the light, to get recognition from humanity and the emperor for his deeds, and he did things also to get that recognition. The Lion's strength and flaw is the exact opposite : he thought loyalty was enough and never wanted to be known nor to share any kind of bond with other primarch : he did things not to achieve egoistical objectives but because he thought they were sufficient by themselves. The result is that Horus is described as the best, and the Lion is not described at all, or with suspicion. And that leads you to misunderstand the Lion.
The entirety of 40K lore is full of that kind of paradox/contradiction : Abaddon is "the best" space marine 1rst captain, yet he only fail ; Lucius is the best "duelist" yet he dies again and again and revives in the corpse of his opponent ; etc. Nobody is what they seem, and the truth of it all cannot be truly understood without some measure of interpretation.
The fight ends with the entire world eater legion being basically surrounded, readied to be butchered by the SW : Russ used the fight with Angron to put him in this situation and make him understand the folly of his ways.
Quote please. Angron is surrounded, Russ is in the dirt with Angron's boot on his throat. Please show me where Betrayer states that the entire Legion is surrounded ready to be butchered. Angron would have died, he accepts this, he also states his Legion would still have won. He even says "look at your men, they are losing Leman". The space wolves would have decapitated the Legion and are undoubtedly a better example of Astartes, they achieve the Emperors objectives in a far more efficient manner as he intended but they weren't winning. If the battle had gone to its conclusion the wolves would have lost. Either way it is irrelevant, the discussion is about Primarch duels not their adherence to wider battle strategy which again you have sidelined into. Russ wasn't 'baiting' Angron into a duel so that he could surround him, his men did that of their own accord because they are a cohesive and complete fighting force that actually secure their objectives. This is deliberately illustrated so as to contrast the World Eaters and show how the nails have robbed them of their agency. Russ attacked Angron out of rage, rage when he references rebellion against the Emperor, I believe the words "take the slaving bastards head" drive Russ over the edge and he launches himself at Angron and is then soundly beaten.
The fight ends with the entire world eater legion being basically surrounded, readied to be butchered by the SW : Russ used the fight with Angron to put him in this situation and make him understand the folly of his ways.
Quote please. Angron is surrounded, Russ is in the dirt with Angron's boot on his throat. Please show me where Betrayer states that the entire Legion is surrounded ready to be butchered. Angron would have died, he accepts this, he also states his Legion would still have won. He even says "look at your men, they are losing Leman". The space wolves would have decapitated the Legion and are undoubtedly a better example of Astartes, they achieve the Emperors objectives in a far more efficient manner as he intended but they weren't winning. If the battle had gone to its conclusion the wolves would have lost. Either way it is irrelevant, the discussion is about Primarch duels not their adherence to wider battle strategy which again you have sidelined into. Russ wasn't 'baiting' Angron into a duel so that he could surround him, his men did that of their own accord because they are a cohesive and complete fighting force that actually secure their objectives. This is deliberately illustrated so as to contrast the World Eaters and show how the nails have robbed them of their agency. Russ attacked Angron out of rage, rage when he references rebellion against the Emperor, I believe the words "take the slaving bastards head" drive Russ over the edge and he launches himself at Angron and is then soundly beaten.
Do you understand the Betrayer part about the night of the wolf is written from Angron's perspective ? The entire point of the Betrayer is Angron arguing that 1) he would have died 2) his legion still would have won.
Out of those two fact what we know for sure was that he would have died.
WhiteDog wrote: Out of those two fact what we know for sure was that he would have died.
As would Russ, under Angron's heel. If Angron had wanted Russ dead (and I mean, properly), Russ would be. But, I agree Angron would have been killed if he had done so.
The fight ends with the entire world eater legion being basically surrounded, readied to be butchered by the SW : Russ used the fight with Angron to put him in this situation and make him understand the folly of his ways.
Quote please. Angron is surrounded, Russ is in the dirt with Angron's boot on his throat. Please show me where Betrayer states that the entire Legion is surrounded ready to be butchered. Angron would have died, he accepts this, he also states his Legion would still have won. He even says "look at your men, they are losing Leman". The space wolves would have decapitated the Legion and are undoubtedly a better example of Astartes, they achieve the Emperors objectives in a far more efficient manner as he intended but they weren't winning. If the battle had gone to its conclusion the wolves would have lost. Either way it is irrelevant, the discussion is about Primarch duels not their adherence to wider battle strategy which again you have sidelined into. Russ wasn't 'baiting' Angron into a duel so that he could surround him, his men did that of their own accord because they are a cohesive and complete fighting force that actually secure their objectives. This is deliberately illustrated so as to contrast the World Eaters and show how the nails have robbed them of their agency. Russ attacked Angron out of rage, rage when he references rebellion against the Emperor, I believe the words "take the slaving bastards head" drive Russ over the edge and he launches himself at Angron and is then soundly beaten.
Do you understand the Betrayer part about the night of the wolf is written from Angron's perspective ? The entire point of the Betrayer is Angron arguing that 1) he would have died 2) his legion still would have won.
Out of those two fact what we know for sure was that he would have died.
Obviously, this isn't some great insight on your behalf, the author literally wrote an piece about it at the end of the book
Angron still would have killed Russ, this entire discussion is primarch 1v1's, why do you keep trying to bring Legions into it, at no point did I assert that Angron wouldn't have died if Russ had willed it, but certainly not directly by his hand
The fight ends with the entire world eater legion being basically surrounded, readied to be butchered by the SW : Russ used the fight with Angron to put him in this situation and make him understand the folly of his ways.
Quote please. Angron is surrounded, Russ is in the dirt with Angron's boot on his throat. Please show me where Betrayer states that the entire Legion is surrounded ready to be butchered. Angron would have died, he accepts this, he also states his Legion would still have won. He even says "look at your men, they are losing Leman". The space wolves would have decapitated the Legion and are undoubtedly a better example of Astartes, they achieve the Emperors objectives in a far more efficient manner as he intended but they weren't winning. If the battle had gone to its conclusion the wolves would have lost. Either way it is irrelevant, the discussion is about Primarch duels not their adherence to wider battle strategy which again you have sidelined into. Russ wasn't 'baiting' Angron into a duel so that he could surround him, his men did that of their own accord because they are a cohesive and complete fighting force that actually secure their objectives. This is deliberately illustrated so as to contrast the World Eaters and show how the nails have robbed them of their agency. Russ attacked Angron out of rage, rage when he references rebellion against the Emperor, I believe the words "take the slaving bastards head" drive Russ over the edge and he launches himself at Angron and is then soundly beaten.
Do you understand the Betrayer part about the night of the wolf is written from Angron's perspective ? The entire point of the Betrayer is Angron arguing that 1) he would have died 2) his legion still would have won. Out of those two fact what we know for sure was that he would have died.
Obviously, this isn't some great insight on your behalf, the author literally wrote an piece about it at the end of the book
Angron still would have killed Russ, this entire discussion is primarch 1v1's, why do you keep trying to bring Legions into it, at no point did I assert that Angron wouldn't have died if Russ had willed it, but certainly not directly by his hand
No you kept saying Angron won against Russ and I told you Russ wanted to show something to Angron from the beginning to the end and not to win the fight, that's why I am talking about their legion. It's not a duel, and only Angron's simple mind, and your own bias, prevent you from understanding that. Funnily enough, the real 1v1 fight between Russ and Horus, a fight that actually happened and was described not recollected by one of the party, with two primarch clearly set to kill each other ... is not a proof of anything to you because ... well because you're a Horus fanboy.
The fight ends with the entire world eater legion being basically surrounded, readied to be butchered by the SW : Russ used the fight with Angron to put him in this situation and make him understand the folly of his ways.
Quote please. Angron is surrounded, Russ is in the dirt with Angron's boot on his throat. Please show me where Betrayer states that the entire Legion is surrounded ready to be butchered. Angron would have died, he accepts this, he also states his Legion would still have won. He even says "look at your men, they are losing Leman". The space wolves would have decapitated the Legion and are undoubtedly a better example of Astartes, they achieve the Emperors objectives in a far more efficient manner as he intended but they weren't winning. If the battle had gone to its conclusion the wolves would have lost. Either way it is irrelevant, the discussion is about Primarch duels not their adherence to wider battle strategy which again you have sidelined into. Russ wasn't 'baiting' Angron into a duel so that he could surround him, his men did that of their own accord because they are a cohesive and complete fighting force that actually secure their objectives. This is deliberately illustrated so as to contrast the World Eaters and show how the nails have robbed them of their agency. Russ attacked Angron out of rage, rage when he references rebellion against the Emperor, I believe the words "take the slaving bastards head" drive Russ over the edge and he launches himself at Angron and is then soundly beaten.
Do you understand the Betrayer part about the night of the wolf is written from Angron's perspective ? The entire point of the Betrayer is Angron arguing that 1) he would have died 2) his legion still would have won.
Out of those two fact what we know for sure was that he would have died.
Obviously, this isn't some great insight on your behalf, the author literally wrote an piece about it at the end of the book
Angron still would have killed Russ, this entire discussion is primarch 1v1's, why do you keep trying to bring Legions into it, at no point did I assert that Angron wouldn't have died if Russ had willed it, but certainly not directly by his hand
No you kept saying Angron won against Russ and I told you Russ wanted to show something to Angron from the beginning to the end and not to win the fight, that's why I am talking about their legion. It's not a duel, and only Angron's simple mind, and your own bias, prevent you from understanding that.
Funnily enough, the real 1v1 fight between Russ and Horus, a fight that actually happened and was described not recollected by one of the party, with two primarch clearly set to kill each other ... is not a proof of anything to you because ... well because you're a Horus fanboy.
There are two different passages in Betrayer that described the Night of the Wolf, the second, which you refer to, is from Angrons perspective. The first, in my memory is far more objective and described by neither party. That is where Russ initially attacks Angron, it is never described as some elaborate bait by Leman Russ, his objective is to have Angron reach him and dmonstrate his wolves superiority. The duel is no part of it, he goes too far, he attacks his brother and he almost pays for it with his life. Also the fight with Guilliman is from the perspective of chapter master Lorkhe who was present at both the night of the wolf and Angron's duel with Gulliman. The book notes that he watched a second primarch crawl away from Angron's wrath, thats an outsider perspective, Russ lost. That's not Angron's interpretation as much as you'd like to paint it that way. Russ is baited into combat with Angron when he gives him the true reason why he serves, the true benefit of the nails. It seems like you didn't quite get that
mrFickle wrote: Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar
Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus
Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus,
Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Why has the Khan only ws7 and Dorn / perturabo 8 ? And Mangus 7 not 6 like Lorgar ?
I'm not exactly up to date with those Primarch but... Seems all over the place
mrFickle wrote: Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar
Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus
Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus,
Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Why has the Khan only ws7 and Dorn / perturabo 8 ? And Mangus 7 not 6 like Lorgar ?
I'm not exactly up to date with those Primarch but... Seems all over the place
Perturabo actually beats most other Primarchs which i find fairly ridiculous, despite the fact that he is one of my favourites
mrFickle wrote: Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar
Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus
Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus,
Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Why has the Khan only ws7 and Dorn / perturabo 8 ? And Mangus 7 not 6 like Lorgar ?
I'm not exactly up to date with those Primarch but... Seems all over the place
Perturabo actually beats most other Primarchs which i find fairly ridiculous, despite the fact that he is one of my favourites
How so? I'm looking over his rules and see nothing that really stands out or makes him better then the other Primarchs vs. Primarch match?
mrFickle wrote: Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar
Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus
Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus,
Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Why has the Khan only ws7 and Dorn / perturabo 8 ? And Mangus 7 not 6 like Lorgar ?
I'm not exactly up to date with those Primarch but... Seems all over the place
Perturabo actually beats most other Primarchs which i find fairly ridiculous, despite the fact that he is one of my favourites
How so? I'm looking over his rules and see nothing that really stands out or makes him better then the other Primarchs vs. Primarch match?
Yazima wrote: :
Check out the mathhammer here, its basically entirely his hammer but he beats almost every other primarch
EDIT: I am a big donkey and forgot that Forgebreaker is Concussive.
Perturabo is an absolute beast because he is very good at crippling his target to WS1 with a small number of very accurate, very powerful attacks. At the same time he enjoys being hit on a 5+ and a thick Invul.
Dopey me, Pert is indeed extremely good at this job.
Thank you, an interesting read! They didn't do vs. Sanguinius. The fight against Magnus- No psychic powers? LOL OK. The Horus fight doesn't take into account dividing up his attacks between the Talon and Worldbreaker, or the bonus attacks Horus gets when Perturabo is reduced to WS4 or his slowly degraded strength. And as noted, Horus' stats can't be reduced. So he doesn't really care about blindness or concussive either. The Lion doesn't really care about Blindness (I7! Though a 1 always fails...), and even if blinded, he will still hit on a 4+, and wound on a 2+. And with his rerollable 4++...
Perturabo wouldn't win vs. Sang, Russ, Horus, Magnus, or Guiliman (!!!), or Curze if we use Hit and Run (which, umm... why wouldn't you?)... in other words, Perturabo is the King of the Second Stringers, but still falls to the Big Boys. In a vacuum, where the rest of the army is not included. Or, apparently, Psychic Powers. Or Hit and Run. /shrug
Actually Perty wins against Kurze even counting Hit And Run. I also don't see what Sang does that Kurze or Corax do in the first place. The hammer prevails.
I meant to ask earlier, did angron really hold up the leg of a titan?
Doesn't that make him getting towards hulk levels of strength?
If so, wow, never had any idea that the primarchs had that level of physical power.
kingheff wrote: I meant to ask earlier, did angron really hold up the leg of a titan?
Doesn't that make him getting towards hulk levels of strength?
If so, wow, never had any idea that the primarchs had that level of physical power.
It's in the Betrayer book, but yes.
Spoiler:
Lorgar has been shot by a Warhound Plasma Gun and is dying in a crater. The Warhounds gun overheats and so it decides to crush him underfoot. As it drops its leg, Angron holds it up long enough for something else to kill it.
It's 'only' a Warhounds, and it's still supporting most of its weight on the other leg, but it's still pretty mad. Angron is left in a pretty rough shape afterwards, a lot of torn muscles and very bloody.
Many of the Heresy books imply that the Primarchs are far weirder than they might initially appear, with lots of Warp juju and psychic aspects to their biology. They are clearly not simple flesh and blood, and the Emperor appears to have been making some shady deals when creating them.
When is it ever implied that the majority of the titans weight isnt on Angron? Its stepping to crush, the weight would be going into the descending foot, not the standing one or it would be massively off balance. The titan crew also describe a feeling of pushing back so its not like hes only holding it up
Is it just inconsistent power levels?
I thought vulkan shoulder charging a baneblade out of the way was pretty op but that's chump change compared to intercepting and then pushing back against a titan.
It's probably never implied but something that I made up to preserve my own suspension of disbelief, now I think about it. Angron gets a bit more leeway in that respect because I like him but it's a very silly scene.
kingheff wrote: Is it just inconsistent power levels?
I thought vulkan shoulder charging a baneblade out of the way was pretty op but that's chump change compared to intercepting and then pushing back against a titan.
Doesn't Mortarion do something big to a baneblade too?
So looks like GW have done their own primarch tournament and the lion is the winner for the loyalist
Thought you all might find it interesting as it compares to the math hammer that was done for this although I don’t think the math hammer did a knockout style tournament
mrFickle wrote: So looks like GW have done their own primarch tournament and the lion is the winner for the loyalist
Thought you all might find it interesting as it compares to the math hammer that was done for this although I don’t think the math hammer did a knockout style tournament
The latest Loyalist Primarch models managed to make it all the way to the end round and fought each other, and the Lion wins, just like in the fluff. Imagine that! And for some reason, the two power houses (Sang and Russ) fight in the first round. Why did they give Sang the Blade Encarmine instead of Telestro and the Moonsilver blade? And no shooting or charging totally gimps certain Primarchs that rely on that initial charge or hit and run. Ah well. It is not surprising at all that The Lion won this.
Would love to see this with all the Primarchs, not just the loyalist.
mrFickle wrote: So looks like GW have done their own primarch tournament and the lion is the winner for the loyalist
Thought you all might find it interesting as it compares to the math hammer that was done for this although I don’t think the math hammer did a knockout style tournament
mrFickle wrote: So looks like GW have done their own primarch tournament and the lion is the winner for the loyalist
Thought you all might find it interesting as it compares to the math hammer that was done for this although I don’t think the math hammer did a knockout style tournament
mrFickle wrote: Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar
Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus
Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus,
Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Why has the Khan only ws7 and Dorn / perturabo 8 ? And Mangus 7 not 6 like Lorgar ?
I'm not exactly up to date with those Primarch but... Seems all over the place
Perturabo actually beats most other Primarchs which i find fairly ridiculous, despite the fact that he is one of my favourites
How so? I'm looking over his rules and see nothing that really stands out or makes him better then the other Primarchs vs. Primarch match?
1d4chan didn't do any mathhammer, they just made some statements about Russ' prowess. Russ, when he was first released in that travesty of a HH book (Book VII: Inferno), was broken, not quite as badly as Magnus, but darn close. The Space Wolves FAQ really reined in Russ' armor.
Going further off topic, The Space Wolves are a mess of an army with as ton of contradictory rules, nonsensical wargear options, and army wide special rules that don't apply to their special units. Taking Russ allows you to use Varagyr Terminators as Troops, but they can't use the the one Frost Weapon that would make them awesome, nor can about 75% of the army special abilities apply to them because they are in Cataphracti terminator armor. Making Veteran Tacticals into Troops was AWESOME before the HUGE NERF Veteran Tactical's received. The compulsory requirements of a very restrictive HQ choices / 1000 points, the lack of Chaplains, Librarians, or "mega-Apothecary", and that you MUST take at least two units of Grey Slayers to fulfill any Troops requirements... In a 3,000 point game, that's 4 HQ's and two units of Grey Slayers eating up close to 600+ points before you even get to the good stuff. Don't forget, Primarch's are Lords of War, not HQ units. Therefore, if you take Russ, you'll still need 4 HQ's + Russ... Or, you know, over 1,000 points of Russ+compulsory units before you get to take the other stuff.
HH Book VII really shows how much Forge World/GW had no clue what to do in the Horus Heresy without Alan Bligh. Book VII received a HUGE Errata/FAQ, the HH Erata had to change all the psychic power rules after Book VII thanks to the indestructible Murder Machine known as Magnus the Red and the Thousand Sons, and Book VIII Malevolence had to devote an astonishing 30 pages to rewrite the entire Lego Custodies army list. Talk about a huge blunder!
Book IX will still be welcomed as it will finally close out all the Primarchs. My collection of black books will be complete! After that, if GW/Forge World want to remake HH over for 8th edition (or probably 9th by that time...), all the power to them!
After all, the fact that the Ravenwing has nothing to do with the Raven Guard doesn't take much mental effort to navigate.
