What would you add or change? Do you think Psychic awakening will help at all?

psykic awakening should help. IMHO one big thing death guard needs is a new "chapter tactic" bolter disipline makes their current CT a little weak.

They have one page of relic, one page of stratagem, in an era where those do a lot.

Some more stratagems will be nice, we have very few even if the ones that we have are pretty good.
I hope for a way to give Lords, Sorcerers and Possessed disgustingly resilient.
What I expect from the Plague Company rules they teased is something like the Thousand Sons got. The codex already described the companies, so one could make guesses how these translate into rules.

No faction has less stratagems than death guard do, they are tied for the least with assassins.
A pile of good stratagems could change a lot, since they have no trouble gaining many CP with their pox walkers,

A good relic or two could also help, right now one of them is an auto-take, not because it's essential to DG strategy, but because all others are worthless.

Death Guard have lots of solid units, but they really need some sort of army-wide push similar to doctrines or psychic tides to mitigate the codex-creep that has enabled everyone to plow through their defenses. Inexorable Advance being redundant for anything but helbrutes, blight launchers and plasmaguns didn't help either.
I'd really like them to get something that makes all their units harder to kill when you run a pure army, something like +1 to DR or +1 to toughness (up to a maximum of 8).

We already know PA won't do that, but getting access to the contents of the shadowspear box would really help, and there really is no fluff reason why DG wouldn't have masters of possessions, obliterators, venom crawlers or greater possessed.

Last, but not least, a second psychic discipline would be nice - when running pure DG, especially when Mortarion is involved, you can easily have 8 or more casts per turn, but just six powers. It doesn't even need to be game-breaking powerful, just having more options along the lines we already have would already help a lot.

The Noxious Blightbringer Bellboy needs a boost.
As does Lord of Contagion.
The Icon Bearer should have an aura effect similar to a Loyalist Ancient Standard Bearer.
A Stratagem for Spawn. (Thousand Sons get one, damn them)
Infiltrating/outflanking Pox Walkers. (as seen in lots of stories)
The cooler Plaguecaster model from SM Heroes.
Some way to heal our Daemon Engines. (aside from Fleshy Abundances psy power)

I'm listing these regardless of whether or not I think PA will bring them (for the most part, I think PA will help some, but I don't expect a huge boost). My notes also assume you're running pure DG. A lot of the DG weaknesses can be fixed with a second detachment of CSMs from the Chaos dex (I have a Purge battalion that I run along side, and sometimes just a Supreme Command detachment of Sorcerers for Warptime).

Overall, I think DG have the bones of an army with a lot of solid potential. I'm not sure it would take much to give them a big boost. Whether or not we get in PA remains to be seen.

Agree on new strategems. We have a few that are decent enough but could really use a boost. I'd like to see something to give Poxwalkers a little more "oomph" for example. I'd also like to see the Gellerpox more "officially" rolled into the DG book. I know they get trash talked quite a lot, but they actually do help with some weaknesses. They take a deft hand to use correctly (I do this wrong more than I do it right ...), and I'd like to be able to take them without having to tale ALL of them, but they can be quite helpful. Especially in smaller games.

- The Noxious Blight Bringer definitely needs a boost. Even if it's just a points reduction, that would help.
- Would like to see the Plague Surgeon get something more akin to the Chief Apothecary option.
- Chaos Lords and Sorcerers need to be able to get Disgustingly Resilient. It's so odd that they don't.
- Wouldn't mind seeing Plague Marines get a second wound (although this might make them too good for their current points level)
- More ways to do additional mortal wounds in different phases. Mortal wounds were DG's thing when they first came out, and now there are a handful of armies that spam these much better (Thousand Sons for example)
- Lord of Conatgion needs a fix of some sort, but I'm not quite sure what. As it stands, he's the "Mutilator" of the DG codex. Great in CC, but will almost never get there. He's not much of a DIstraction Carnifex as he can largely be ignored, and IMO, he's to many points for a lone objective camper.
- Some additional psychic powers revolving around making DG units more resilient. It's a bit of a shame that the "toughest army in the game", can be outdone by Iron Hands ...
- Access to the Dark Hereticus discipline. It makes no sense that they did't get this as an option
- Disgustingly Resilient (or similar) on Rhinos
- Some more strategems involving their unique Demon Engines.

I think that about covers my thoughts, and honestly, we probably wouldn't even need all of them to get the boost we need, although we likely won't see most of the ones I listed until we get a new codex so who knows...

Not optimistic about Psychic Awakening. If it's like Thousand Sons, it's going to make them more fragmented.

I'd say the following would make them better:

- Disgustingly Resilient on all legacy units - HQs and vehicles especially

- More cover auras akin to Crawlers. Troops should be able to get cover from any of their vehicles, this is supposed to be Nurgle's finest.

- More defensive psychic powers. There should be a way to get 2+ on normal troops, some should be almost impossible to kill.

- More ranged weapons. It just takes too long walking across the board, sometimes you need a little offense early game.

Death Guard's problems aren't really death guard specific. The areas they are weak are where all marines are weak. The problem is the base marine stat line. S4 ap0 attacks are not good. 3+ isn't what it used to be.

8th edition destroyed the MeQ statline. If the MeQ statline was good, and then DG still had their other pluses on top of it, then they'd be very nice. I've posted about this before a bunch of times, so rather than retype it all, just look at this thread: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/774856.page

Since I posted that, Loyalists got several layers of special rules on top of the statline, which has greatly improved them. Now Chaos needs equivalents to that too, including deathguard. If DG just get bonuses to a few DG specific units, then it'll just further the current style of Chaos lists where you spam a few powerful units and a bunch of horde infantry and never touch most of your unit list.

I agree with all of the points about stratagems, bolter discipline, etc. DG definitely need at least greater possessed. I mean, if they have regular possessed, why not the greater variety.

I knew it wasn’t going to happen when the chapter approved rumors started happening, but 2 wound marines would go a long way to making death guard more viable. Ideally they would make changes to the main strengths to keep them in line with everyone else. Reroll 1s to wound is cool, but so many armies have reroll all wounds now. So many armies have FNP rules now, so disgustingly resilient doesn’t seem so impressive. And AP 0 guns definitely do not cut it anymore.

I’m worried that they’ll just do what they did to the thousand sons, and just add some unrelated gimmick. Ritual of the Damned was all “sorry your army isn’t viable as it stands, what if everyone can teleport now?” Like I’m picturing death guard suddenly getting miracle dice.

I think 8th ruined power armor more than the stats.

claiming 8th ruined power armor assumes it was good in past editions.

BrianDavion wrote:
psykic awakening should help. IMHO one big thing death guard needs is a new "chapter tactic" bolter disipline makes their current CT a little weak.

LOL they're gonna get the same treatment Thousand Sons did with their little "different" Cults. Basically, you can expect absolutely nothing. What they and Thousand Sons need is to be rolled back into the main CSM codex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
psykic awakening should help. IMHO one big thing death guard needs is a new "chapter tactic" bolter disipline makes their current CT a little weak.

LOL they're gonna get the same treatment Thousand Sons did with their little "different" Cults. Basically, you can expect absolutely nothing. What they and Thousand Sons need is to be rolled back into the main CSM codex.

they'd gain little from it beyond maybe being able to spam a unfluffy unit to win a game or two

1-all units (defilers, none DG HQs, etc..)get DS
2-Someone besides DP and non DG lord reroll 1s buff
3-

BrianDavion wrote:
they'd gain little from it beyond maybe being able to spam a unfluffy unit to win a game or two

... and a ton of fluffy units that have been left out of the DG codex for no reason whatsoever, a vastly better psychic discipline, a bunch of support for their daemon engines, a pile of stratagems, daemon weapons of nurgle and much more.

They have tons to gain. To be honest, if GW had communicated that they wouldn't be supporting DG outside of their initial release, I probably would have started CSM instead.

BrianDavion wrote:
claiming 8th ruined power armor assumes it was good in past editions.

This. Whenever people bring up on Dakka that Power Armour or Terminator Armour has been made useless by 8th Edition I'm thinking, you guys should have a look at threads from 6th and 7th Edition where people said the same already. Probably even earlier, when 5th Edition gave loads of Plasma to everyone. Personally, my Plague Marines sitting in cover feel more durable than ever with their 2+ and DR even against mortal wounds... But I don't really have SM players in my group that might change perception, I imagine their AP on everything is what especially hurts Power armor ironically, but not the Edition rules.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
psykic awakening should help. IMHO one big thing death guard needs is a new "chapter tactic" bolter disipline makes their current CT a little weak.

LOL they're gonna get the same treatment Thousand Sons did with their little "different" Cults. Basically, you can expect absolutely nothing. What they and Thousand Sons need is to be rolled back into the main CSM codex.

I find it crazy that some people think the PA book did nothing for 1ksons. A extra smite on all non named chars or a new power that is cult dependant. Thousand sons are pretty damn powerful and PA made them even stronger. Sure, the cult powers only affecting cult units sucks bad. But it doesnt change the fact that there is some amazing stuff in PA. The biggest hit we have taken is not PA in origin. Its the fact that our DP with wings are almost priced out of competitive lists...almost. The price hike really killed alot of my lists that I had to rework. I would have liked to see more cult stratagems and perhaps a page of non cult relics. Other than that I am very happy with PA.

As for DG. I dont play them. And have only played against them twice. Things I noticed is that my 1k sons are almost as hard to remove ( army dependent ) as DG. This should not be. Perhaps a return to 4+ FNP for DG could help. Also, more strats. And yes, the relics they have are terrible. Imho it wouldnt take much to put them back up to mid-tier from PA. For a better re-balance we would need a new codex.

Echoing what others have said, more strats (honestly I only ever use Vets and Cloud of Flies), more and better relics (would be nice to take something other than Fugaris' Helm or Suppurating Plate), and DR for chaos lords, sorcerers, possessed, etc.

I'd like to see the existing HQs buffed a little, or else some of the 'Elite' characters moved into the HQ slot - just to give a bit more list variety.

On a final note, as a Pallid Hand player with 3 predators, I'd quite like to see our vehicles get DR. I recently bought 2 PBCs and have been running them for the past 3-4 games, and I'm massively underwhelmed. The damn things cannot hit anything, with far too many -1 to hit modifiers in play, and their T8 makes little difference when I'm repeatedly faced with lascannons and venom cannons. Being able to roll with the predators again would be nice - giving DG some much-needed accurate long-range fire power.

Things I noticed is that my 1k sons are almost as hard to remove ( army dependent ) as DG. This should not be.

I have a DG and a Thousand Sons army and can't agree with this statement enough. Tsons are nearly as hard to remove (sometimes harder depending on buffs), and deal mortal wounds even better. There are just a lot of armies that took mechanics that were laid out in the DG book, but did them much better since they came later in the eddition.

That said, most of what's "wrong" in the DG book can be fixed with a pretty simple codex update. Certain folks have been borderline screaming for DG to get rolled back into the CSM book. I think that's a pretty solid way to make sure they don't get updated at all anymore.

It's a pretty trivial thing to just add the Dark Hereticus powers into their book (there's no reason why any CSM army wouldn't have this as an option), and add a few of the missing units (I don't see why Oblits, Greater Possesed, or Masters of Possesion would be unfluffy ofr example). I actually really like the way they play, the problem is just a problem of classic codex creep. What I find especially funny is that many (not ALL, but many) of the people who are yelling to have them rolled back into the CSM book are the same people saying in other threads that CSM "suck" and need a update ... so, which is it? If CSM also suck ...

Sadly, like others have said, while I'm sure PA will help the DG on some level (it should, at the very least, get us some better strats), the update we really need won't happen in a PA book. We will need a fresh codex update, and I haven't even heard rumors of that happening.

BrianDavion wrote:
claiming 8th ruined power armor assumes it was good in past editions.

It was good in 3rd and 4th. I guess that's a long time ago now.

It was good in 3rd and 4th. I guess that's a long time ago now.

Yeah, it's been a while now. The MEQ stat line has been taking a beating for quite some time. I'm not sure why so many folks feel like this started in 8th ...

It didn't start in 8th, but the AP system was the final nail.

Tycho wrote:


It's a pretty trivial thing to just add the Dark Hereticus powers into their book (there's no reason why any CSM army wouldn't have this as an option), and add a few of the missing units (I don't see why Oblits, Greater Possesed, or Masters of Possesion would be unfluffy ofr example).

Genuine question, but would Oblits be worthwhile without Endless Cacophony?

If they do nothing else, I would like to see DR on every unit. At least the non-vehicle ones.

The fact that not Lords and Sorcerers don't have DR drives my OCD absolutely fething wild.

I really wish GW would practice some rules consistency for once.

Given how 8th plays, DG maybe should have 4+ FNP, so other factions can have 5+ instead of 6+.

 harlokin wrote:

Tycho wrote:


It's a pretty trivial thing to just add the Dark Hereticus powers into their book (there's no reason why any CSM army wouldn't have this as an option), and add a few of the missing units (I don't see why Oblits, Greater Possesed, or Masters of Possesion would be unfluffy ofr example).

Genuine question, but would Oblits be worthwhile without Endless Cacophony?

The provide a kind of shooting DG are lacking right now, and they could move and shoot without penalties. I'd field them if I could.

Table wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
psykic awakening should help. IMHO one big thing death guard needs is a new "chapter tactic" bolter disipline makes their current CT a little weak.

LOL they're gonna get the same treatment Thousand Sons did with their little "different" Cults. Basically, you can expect absolutely nothing. What they and Thousand Sons need is to be rolled back into the main CSM codex.

I find it crazy that some people think the PA book did nothing for 1ksons. A extra smite on all non named chars or a new power that is cult dependant. Thousand sons are pretty damn powerful and PA made them even stronger. Sure, the cult powers only affecting cult units sucks bad. But it doesnt change the fact that there is some amazing stuff in PA. The biggest hit we have taken is not PA in origin. Its the fact that our DP with wings are almost priced out of competitive lists...almost. The price hike really killed alot of my lists that I had to rework. I would have liked to see more cult stratagems and perhaps a page of non cult relics. Other than that I am very happy with PA.

As for DG. I dont play them. And have only played against them twice. Things I noticed is that my 1k sons are almost as hard to remove ( army dependent ) as DG. This should not be. Perhaps a return to 4+ FNP for DG could help. Also, more strats. And yes, the relics they have are terrible. Imho it wouldnt take much to put them back up to mid-tier from PA. For a better re-balance we would need a new codex.

It's because they didn't do anything for Thousand Sons that couldn't really be done before. At most the extra Warlord would get some use.

 Jidmah wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
they'd gain little from it beyond maybe being able to spam a unfluffy unit to win a game or two

... and a ton of fluffy units that have been left out of the DG codex for no reason whatsoever, a vastly better psychic discipline, a bunch of support for their daemon engines, a pile of stratagems, daemon weapons of nurgle and much more.

They have tons to gain. To be honest, if GW had communicated that they wouldn't be supporting DG outside of their initial release, I probably would have started CSM instead.

They'd also lose their existing discipline, relics and strats by being rolled back in. Try playing a purge list and see if it tickles your fancy for playing death guard.

Genuine question, but would Oblits be worthwhile without Endless Cacophony?

Good question. I'm honestly not sure, but I also don't see any reason why they wouldn't have Oblits.

The provide a kind of shooting DG are lacking right now, and they could move and shoot without penalties. I'd field them if I could.

Now it's my turn for a genuine question -
How do you think you would use them? I still feel like they're too expensive to really justify. Especially when they'd be in a similar slot as Blight Lords, and I can't see myself not taking the Blight Lords.

It's because they didn't do anything for Thousand Sons that couldn't really be done before. At most the extra Warlord would get some use.

To be fair, that criticism could probably be leveled at most of the PA updates ...

I actually feel like my Tsons did get a decent buff. Is it what they really needed? No, and Death Guard's boost will also likely not be quite enough, but my Tsons DID get better, and I'm hoping that trend continues for DG. Honestly, DG were a good army when they came out. They've just been hit with the classic codex creep, so I feel like they don't need quite as much from PA as some other armies did.

Tycho wrote:

Genuine question, but would Oblits be worthwhile without Endless Cacophony?

Good question. I'm honestly not sure, but I also don't see any reason why they wouldn't have Oblits.

The provide a kind of shooting DG are lacking right now, and they could move and shoot without penalties. I'd field them if I could.

Now it's my turn for a genuine question -
How do you think you would use them? I still feel like they're too expensive to really justify. Especially when they'd be in a similar slot as Blight Lords, and I can't see myself not taking the Blight Lords.

It's because they didn't do anything for Thousand Sons that couldn't really be done before. At most the extra Warlord would get some use.

To be fair, that criticism could probably be leveled at most of the PA updates ...

I actually feel like my Tsons did get a decent buff. Is it what they really needed? No, and Death Guard's boost will also likely not be quite enough, but my Tsons DID get better, and I'm hoping that trend continues for DG. Honestly, DG were a good army when they came out. They've just been hit with the classic codex creep, so I feel like they don't need quite as much from PA as some other armies did.

If you just keep releasing a bunch of stuff of COURSE you theoretically get better. However, it says a lot that they got NINE extra Warlord Traits, Powers, Relics, and a bunch of Stratagems and they still aren't terribly useful. I might have made the initial joke of GW creating rules via throwing darts at a board, but if that release for Thousand Sons isn't proof I dunno what is.

I really just think they need points drops in various places. Or a general boost in offensive power. Really the issue is the luck of a 5++. If you roll hot in turns 1 and 2 it really helps. If you dont it wont matter because everything is already dead and so you csnt hurt your opponent. There isnt a catchup mechanic in the way there can be with offensive buffs.

 Jidmah wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

Tycho wrote:


It's a pretty trivial thing to just add the Dark Hereticus powers into their book (there's no reason why any CSM army wouldn't have this as an option), and add a few of the missing units (I don't see why Oblits, Greater Possesed, or Masters of Possesion would be unfluffy ofr example).

Genuine question, but would Oblits be worthwhile without Endless Cacophony?

The provide a kind of shooting DG are lacking right now, and they could move and shoot without penalties. I'd field them if I could.

Throw in disgusting resilience and you could have a very dangerous set of units in your opponent's rear.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tycho wrote:

Genuine question, but would Oblits be worthwhile without Endless Cacophony?

Good question. I'm honestly not sure, but I also don't see any reason why they wouldn't have Oblits.

The provide a kind of shooting DG are lacking right now, and they could move and shoot without penalties. I'd field them if I could.

Now it's my turn for a genuine question -
How do you think you would use them? I still feel like they're too expensive to really justify. Especially when they'd be in a similar slot as Blight Lords, and I can't see myself not taking the Blight Lords.

It's because they didn't do anything for Thousand Sons that couldn't really be done before. At most the extra Warlord would get some use.

To be fair, that criticism could probably be leveled at most of the PA updates ...

I actually feel like my Tsons did get a decent buff. Is it what they really needed? No, and Death Guard's boost will also likely not be quite enough, but my Tsons DID get better, and I'm hoping that trend continues for DG. Honestly, DG were a good army when they came out. They've just been hit with the classic codex creep, so I feel like they don't need quite as much from PA as some other armies did.

If you just keep releasing a bunch of stuff of COURSE you theoretically get better. However, it says a lot that they got NINE extra Warlord Traits, Powers, Relics, and a bunch of Stratagems and they still aren't terribly useful. I might have made the initial joke of GW creating rules via throwing darts at a board, but if that release for Thousand Sons isn't proof I dunno what is.

In danger of making this a 1ksons thread ill say the following. Yes, a good 2/3rds of the PA for 1k is middling at best and tepid at worst. But the 1/3rd that is good, is really fricking good. This isnt a 1ksons problem. Alot of PA and codex suffer from this problem.

Some cult powers have very much changed how I play my 1ksons and for the first time since the codex dropped, I feel like I am not being punished by the rules for playing Rubrics. Do that mean that we dont need a update? No. There is alot to fix and I would like a group of powers that keeps me from wanting to smite. A good half of what we can cast is trash. Exalteds need a fat buff to put them in consideration for HQ's and we need a form of doctrines. PA did not address this but it wasnt supposed to.

As for DG. I feel DG should be one of if not the hardest army to shift. And when I read the rules for PBC's I did not understand why people raved about them. Sure, they are a brick and offer some firepower with flamers (forgot the weapon name) but the main cannon is fricking useless. The irony is how the DG book goes on about how Mortarion himself designed them to be the premier siege unit. Mort is a tool of a designer and needs some help from a real siege pappy like Pert. When I played vs them they did very little.

Less than a third is usable. You can pretend it is, but in reality it's just a bunch of bloat that does little for the core army. Speaking of which, core Thousand Son armies didn't change, probably because nothing much of value was added!

Dudeface wrote:
They'd also lose their existing discipline

Oh noes! Miasma already is available to CSM and purifying blades can be replaced with diabolic strength.We trade two "deals mortal wounds" spells for other "deals mortal wounds" and instead of vitality and the random debuff for warptime, prescience and death hex.
We would actually end up with one more psychic power than we have now, and pretty much every codex in the game would trade their entire discipline away for warptime, prescience and death hex.
In addition, Death Guard would gain the entire malefic discipline, too, which is quite relevant to their daemon engines, as well as dark prayers.

, relics

Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Black Legion, Emperors Children and World Eaters have 7 unique relics each, as well as two generic ones and at least one aligned to their chaos god and a daemon weapon, for a total of 11. And I'm not even not counting the ones from specialist detachments.
Death Guard have 6.

and strats by being rolled back in.

Codex legions have 7-8 unique stratagems in addition to 24 from codex CSM.
Death Guard have 5 unique stratagems and 9 from codex CSM.
We would gain at least 17 stratagems from getting rolled into CSM, as well as access to specialist detachments.

Oh, and let's not forget that codex legions can chose from 13 warlord traits plus specialist detachments, while death guard have 6.

So, as you can see, currently getting rolled into the codex is all upside for Death Guard.

Try playing a purge list and see if it tickles your fancy for playing death guard.

Believe me, if it were possible to play the purge with my models, I'd instantly switch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

The provide a kind of shooting DG are lacking right now, and they could move and shoot without penalties. I'd field them if I could.

Now it's my turn for a genuine question -
How do you think you would use them? I still feel like they're too expensive to really justify. Especially when they'd be in a similar slot as Blight Lords, and I can't see myself not taking the Blight Lords.

Death guard currently have no real way to focus down hard targets, you have to rely on plasma guns, blight launchers and spitters to grind them down over multiple turns.
In theory, we have helbrutes, predators and landraiders (we don't even get vindicators!) to help with that, but among an army of 5++/DR vehicles, they stick out like a sore thumb and provide easy kill for our opponents.
Obliterators would solve this problem by providing a durable unit that can actually reliably hurt vehicles. To get comparable firepower to a single obliterator, I would have to spend 134 on a heavy blight launcher drone or 136 on an entropy cannon PBC, which can't move and hits on 4+ instead of 3+.
Heck, death guard obliterators could just start on the board, because they can advance and shoot without penalty.

Blightlords don't compare at all, they are an anti-infantry/anti-horde unit for clearing objectives. I would just run both.

One page of stratagem was the good design. A truckload of them for other factions was the wrong one.

Not particularly hopeful 9th will be better on that front, this stratagem bloat is probably awesome from a competitive point of view, since it offers new tactical options.

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
They'd also lose their existing discipline

Oh noes! Miasma already is available to CSM and purifying blades can be replaced with diabolic strength.We trade two "deals mortal wounds" spells for other "deals mortal wounds" and instead of vitality and the random debuff for warptime, prescience and death hex.
We would actually end up with one more psychic power than we have now, and pretty much every codex in the game would trade their entire discipline away for warptime, prescience and death hex.
In addition, Death Guard would gain the entire malefic discipline, too, which is quite relevant to their daemon engines, as well as dark prayers.

, relics

Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Black Legion, Emperors Children and World Eaters have 7 unique relics each, as well as two generic ones and at least one aligned to their chaos god and a daemon weapon, for a total of 11. And I'm not even not counting the ones from specialist detachments.
Death Guard have 6.

and strats by being rolled back in.

Codex legions have 7-8 unique stratagems in addition to 24 from codex CSM.
Death Guard have 5 unique stratagems and 9 from codex CSM.
We would gain at least 17 stratagems from getting rolled into CSM, as well as access to specialist detachments.

Oh, and let's not forget that codex legions can chose from 13 warlord traits plus specialist detachments, while death guard have 6.

So, as you can see, currently getting rolled into the codex is all upside for Death Guard.

Try playing a purge list and see if it tickles your fancy for playing death guard.

Believe me, if it were possible to play the purge with my models, I'd instantly switch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

The provide a kind of shooting DG are lacking right now, and they could move and shoot without penalties. I'd field them if I could.

Now it's my turn for a genuine question -
How do you think you would use them? I still feel like they're too expensive to really justify. Especially when they'd be in a similar slot as Blight Lords, and I can't see myself not taking the Blight Lords.

Death guard currently have no real way to focus down hard targets, you have to rely on plasma guns, blight launchers and spitters to grind them down over multiple turns.
In theory, we have helbrutes, predators and landraiders (we don't even get vindicators!) to help with that, but among an army of 5++/DR vehicles, they stick out like a sore thumb and provide easy kill for our opponents.
Obliterators would solve this problem by providing a durable unit that can actually reliably hurt vehicles. To get comparable firepower to a single obliterator, I would have to spend 134 on a heavy blight launcher drone or 136 on an entropy cannon PBC, which can't move and hits on 4+ instead of 3+.
Heck, death guard obliterators could just start on the board, because they can advance and shoot without penalty.

Blightlords don't compare at all, they are an anti-infantry/anti-horde unit for clearing objectives. I would just run both.

Oh sorry, you're comparing the chaos codex and 2 expansion books to the death guard codex. I didn't realise you'd moved the goal posts 2 fields across.

 Jidmah wrote:

Death guard currently have no real way to focus down hard targets, you have to rely on plasma guns, blight launchers and spitters to grind them down over multiple turns.
In theory, we have helbrutes, predators and landraiders (we don't even get vindicators!) to help with that, but among an army of 5++/DR vehicles, they stick out like a sore thumb and provide easy kill for our opponents.
Obliterators would solve this problem by providing a durable unit that can actually reliably hurt vehicles. To get comparable firepower to a single obliterator, I would have to spend 134 on a heavy blight launcher drone or 136 on an entropy cannon PBC, which can't move and hits on 4+ instead of 3+.
Heck, death guard obliterators could just start on the board, because they can advance and shoot without penalty.

Blightlords don't compare at all, they are an anti-infantry/anti-horde unit for clearing objectives. I would just run both.

That grinding them down over multiple turns fits the DG lore and theme pretty well though, I'd be afraid that giving them too much long range weaponry would distort the army's identity in an unhealthy way. I do think the (potentially) dedicated anti-vehicle units like PBC's could use a buff to their anti-vehicle weapons, a few new stratagems to reroll misses, let them shoot twice if they haven't moved maybe, or +1 to wound against VEHICLES maybe.

As far as other fixes go, making all characters like Chaos Lords T5 and giving them DR. Giving units like the Helbrute DR would help, as would more psychic powers to either boost their defensive powers or reduce the enemies firepower.

I think an endless cacophony type strat for MBH would be a nice buff for a cool unit that is underused, particularly as a fire support option.

Maybe allowing Plague Marines to throw grenades in addition to shooting. It's reasonbbly themaic, and would boost their damage output somewhat without changing their overall play style.

I won't consider Death Guard to be done right until you can make a plague marine heavy list and have it be viable. (Doesn't need to be a top tier tournament winning A+ list, but at least a B+.) For that to happen, plague marines need more firepower on their basic weapons, and rhinos need to become more viable.

Imagine for a moment if plague marines had the loyalist Doctrine rules. An extra -1 AP, and another super doctrine bonus. They'd be pretty rad then, because that puts them over the line of actually being able to hurt things with their bolters and CCWs. On top of that, they really need access to re-roll 1's to wound on shooting (all Chaos does.)

Well, if you take min squads with 2 Blight launchers and Plasma on Sergeant, supported by an arch contaminator HQ Plague Marines are pretty strong in my experience. CC Marines are a little harder to play though, but since they got hateful Assault I'm pretty content with the ones' that make it to CC. Agree about the Rhinos, though. They're better than last Edition, but not nearly triple the price better. That being said, it's pretty rare I needed a Transport in 8th Edition, and when I wished to have one it was to climb on buildings

I don't know if this has been stated yet, but since TS get extra AP in their bolter firepower due to Tzeentch magic, why not technically make bolter rounds plague rounds by allowing you to re-roll ones? I mean, we see on the front cover of the codex green steam coming out of the bolter.

Dudeface wrote:
Oh sorry, you're comparing the chaos codex and 2 expansion books to the death guard codex. I didn't realise you'd moved the goal posts 2 fields across.

Nice try, but no.
Psychic powers are not impacted at all by expansions, and the ones from the codex are vastly better than the ones in codex DG.
You gain 12 stratagems just from being in codex CSM
You gain 6 warlord traits from being in the codex
You gain prayers to the dark gods from the codex
You get access to specialist detachments for being in the codex
You get access to deamon weapons for being in the codex
Psychic Awakening added legion-specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems - which is more than DG already have, and therefore there is no reason to believe they would lose any of those. Rolling them back into the codex would also require a new publication, which will inevitably contain all those legion upgrades anyways. The other two expansions added nothing relevant to DG.

So you are just flat out wrong about losing anything for getting rolled in the codex.


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 DrGiggles wrote:
That grinding them down over multiple turns fits the DG lore and theme pretty well though, I'd be afraid that giving them too much long range weaponry would distort the army's identity in an unhealthy way.

Grinding down worked in the beginning of 8th, but with all the power creep, you just don't survive long enough to do so.
There are now things which you must be able to kill during the first two turns or you just lose the game because they are too efficient at plowing through DG units.

I do think the (potentially) dedicated anti-vehicle units like PBC's could use a buff to their anti-vehicle weapons, a few new stratagems to reroll misses, let them shoot twice if they haven't moved maybe, or +1 to wound against VEHICLES maybe.

It doesn't rally matter whether you introduce obliterators or buff PBCs to the level of obliterators, does it?

As far as other fixes go, making all characters like Chaos Lords T5 and giving them DR. Giving units like the Helbrute DR would help, as would more psychic powers to either boost their defensive powers or reduce the enemies firepower.

I agree that adding more layers of defenses would be the best way to make the Death Guard feel right again, but a bit of damage and range is needed in the game we have now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I don't know if this has been stated yet, but since TS get extra AP in their bolter firepower due to Tzeentch magic, why not technically make bolter rounds plague rounds by allowing you to re-roll ones? I mean, we see on the front cover of the codex green steam coming out of the bolter.

I agree, making all DG bolters plague weapons would be great, though it would put the arch-contaminator warlord trait even further ahead of the rest of the pack.

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Oh sorry, you're comparing the chaos codex and 2 expansion books to the death guard codex. I didn't realise you'd moved the goal posts 2 fields across.

Nice try, but no.
Psychic powers are not impacted at all by expansions, and the ones from the codex are vastly better than the ones in codex DG.
You gain 12 stratagems just from being in codex CSM
You gain 6 warlord traits from being in the codex
You gain prayers to the dark gods from the codex
You get access to specialist detachments for being in the codex
You get access to deamon weapons for being in the codex
Psychic Awakening added legion-specific warlord traits, relics and stratagems - which is more than DG already have, and therefore there is no reason to believe they would lose any of those. Rolling them back into the codex would also require a new publication, which will inevitably contain all those legion upgrades anyways. The other two expansions added nothing relevant to DG.

So you are just flat out wrong about losing anything for getting rolled in the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DrGiggles wrote:
That grinding them down over multiple turns fits the DG lore and theme pretty well though, I'd be afraid that giving them too much long range weaponry would distort the army's identity in an unhealthy way.

Grinding down worked in the beginning of 8th, but with all the power creep, you just don't survive long enough to do so.
There are now things which you must be able to kill during the first two turns or you just lose the game because they are too efficient at plowing through DG units.

I do think the (potentially) dedicated anti-vehicle units like PBC's could use a buff to their anti-vehicle weapons, a few new stratagems to reroll misses, let them shoot twice if they haven't moved maybe, or +1 to wound against VEHICLES maybe.

It doesn't rally matter whether you introduce obliterators or buff PBCs to the level of obliterators, does it?

As far as other fixes go, making all characters like Chaos Lords T5 and giving them DR. Giving units like the Helbrute DR would help, as would more psychic powers to either boost their defensive powers or reduce the enemies firepower.

I agree that adding more layers of defenses would be the best way to make the Death Guard feel right again, but a bit of damage and range is needed in the game we have now.


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 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I don't know if this has been stated yet, but since TS get extra AP in their bolter firepower due to Tzeentch magic, why not technically make bolter rounds plague rounds by allowing you to re-roll ones? I mean, we see on the front cover of the codex green steam coming out of the bolter.

I agree, making all DG bolters plague weapons would be great, though it would put the arch-contaminator warlord trait even further ahead of the rest of the pack.

We're on 2 different pages, I'm talking as if they had never had a unique codex where none of their new units, strats, warlord traits exist. If you're talking about copy and pasting the entire death guard books contents back into codex chaos space marines that's just never going to happen and would be an awful idea.

Although my red corsairs daemon engine detachment would enjoy having access to drones and crawlers as well since they'd no longer be legion specific.

Dudeface wrote:
We're on 2 different pages, I'm talking as if they had never had a unique codex where none of their new units, strats, warlord traits exist. If you're talking about copy and pasting the entire death guard books contents back into codex chaos space marines that's just never going to happen and would be an awful idea.

Now you're moving goalposts, this is what you originally said:

Dudeface wrote:
hey'd also lose their existing discipline, relics and strats by being rolled back in.

Getting rolled back into the codex is what happend to Codex: Black Templars. You keep your unique units and characters, but otherwise become the same as any other chaos legion.

 Jidmah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grinding down worked in the beginning of 8th, but with all the power creep, you just don't survive long enough to do so.
There are now things which you must be able to kill during the first two turns or you just lose the game because they are too efficient at plowing through DG units.

That would be a matter of them being to efficient at what they do though, I'd rather see all overperforming units be brought into line than make everything overly efficient at what they do.

 Jidmah wrote:

I agree that adding more layers of defenses would be the best way to make the Death Guard feel right again, but a bit of damage and range is needed in the game we have now.

Again, I'd rather each faction have a unique identity/play style while bringing clearly overperforming units more in line with other units. Having a fast paced game can be nice but the rate that models fly off the table right now is too much. Games shouldn't be decided in the first turn or two based solely on who brought the most firepower.

I agree, but the thread is about how to make Death Guard more competitive.

Reducing the damage of every single other decent shooting unit out there is not something that is going to happen.

Getting rolled back into the codex is what happend to Codex: Black Templars. You keep your unique units and characters, but otherwise become the same as any other chaos legion.

Rolling DG back into CSM is just not a good idea. They aren't going to get rolled back in and keep everything. They're going to get rolled back in and be what they were previously - an unfluffy shadow of what they should be ... Rolling them back in is going backwards, and I'd much rather we go forwards. They're a "new" army (I realize the book has been out for 3 years), and haven't had their first update yet. There's so much to build on in that book that I can't fathom why you would want to reverse direction rather than just bring that book in line with the codexes that have been updated. And again - for every thread where someone wants DG rolled back into CSM, I can point to another thread where that same person is saying "the CSM book SUCKS!", so I'm still unsure why that's an "acceptable solution - two "negatives" making a positive? IDK ... I've said it recently, and I'll say it again, I think the "Chaos players are never happy meme" may have more truth in it than I realized.

I like Jidmah's idea of making all regular bolters plague weapons, although I don't think I'd buff the offense of PMs any more than that. A lot of people are saying they need PMs to have better offensive output, but I don't think that's right for DG. Plague Marines don't need to be hyper-killers. They need to be the immovable object. Place a squad on an objective and watch them deny all comers. If they were tougher to kill, they'd really be able to take advantage of their Obsec ability. I think that's all the marines need. Tougher, with a points adjustment. If you could then add to that Rhinos w/Disgustingly Resilient, and maybe a better repair mechanic, you'd be on to something I think.

Also, while I DON'T think they should be rolled back in, I DO think they should have better synergy w/CSM. They should absolutely have access to Dark Hereticus, and their unique powers should be able to work on standard CSM, or, at the very least CSM w/the Mark of Nurgle.

I would also like to see Poxwalkers get something. Their schtick got nerfed so hard they don't really serve the same purpose anymore, so I'd like to see either a 1pt drop, or more strategems sent their way. Something like blocks of infiltrating walkers (to represent the infected populace milling about), or abilities to create super poxwalkers for a turn, etc etc. I was even thinking about a proposed "Plague Bomb" strat where once a game you pick a walker (or a squad - haven't fleshed it out) and just blow it up for a large radius of mortal wounds.

On the topic of mortal wounds - I think the DG either need more ways to deal them, or increase the amount of wounds when they deal them.

Death guard currently have no real way to focus down hard targets, you have to rely on plasma guns, blight launchers and spitters to grind them down over multiple turns.
In theory, we have helbrutes, predators and landraiders (we don't even get vindicators!) to help with that, but among an army of 5++/DR vehicles, they stick out like a sore thumb and provide easy kill for our opponents.
Obliterators would solve this problem by providing a durable unit that can actually reliably hurt vehicles. To get comparable firepower to a single obliterator, I would have to spend 134 on a heavy blight launcher drone or 136 on an entropy cannon PBC, which can't move and hits on 4+ instead of 3+.
Heck, death guard obliterators could just start on the board, because they can advance and shoot without penalty.

Blightlords don't compare at all, they are an anti-infantry/anti-horde unit for clearing objectives. I would just run both.

That's fair, and I could see that, although I still think Oblits are too expensive for what they deliver. And even in a DG army, I don't think they'd be survivable enough. I think it just end up as a distraction Carnifex.

Would be great if DG had a character that could give +1 to hit to deamon and deamon engine. This woule make PBC and myphitic way better.
A unit of devastator-like unit specific to DG could be a great addition too, like a short range (24") heavy hitter that are more reliable and cheaper than myphitic blight haulers.

Aside from that, only strata and relic should do the trick in my opinion.

Tycho wrote:
Rolling DG back into CSM is just not a good idea. They aren't going to get rolled back in and keep everything. They're going to get rolled back in and be what they were previously - an unfluffy shadow of what they should be ... Rolling them back in is going backwards, and I'd much rather we go forwards. They're a "new" army (I realize the book has been out for 3 years), and haven't had their first update yet. There's so much to build on in that book that I can't fathom why you would want to reverse direction rather than just bring that book in line with the codexes that have been updated.

Of course, I'm playing devil's advocate here.
The truth is that DG (and TS for that matter) have been left out of every single update that has been applied to all other chaos legions - the shadowspear units, the thunder hammer chaos lord from black fortress, the specialist detachments from vigilus, the daemon weapons from psychic awakening and prayers. Would you bet on the tallyman getting prayers with PA? I know I wouldn't.
We don't have vindicators despite the codex describing how we do. We don't have obliterators, despite Mortarion being one of the two primarchs that created them. We don't have masters of possessions despite daemon engines being our thing and Barbarus being littered in factories exactly as described in the MoP's fluff. We have possessed, but no greater possessed.
Heck, they even forgot to nerf our cultists, they still get our legion trait.

Obviously, I don't want DG to be rolled back into the codex, but right now they very much feel like a codex that GW simply forgot about. If this is what it means to have your own codex, Emperor's Children and World Eaters should pray that they'll never get their own.

That's fair, and I could see that, although I still think Oblits are too expensive for what they deliver. And even in a DG army, I don't think they'd be survivable enough. I think it just end up as a distraction Carnifex.

They still do the job better than anything else we have, and 2+/4++ is plenty survivable. Even if they aren't a competitive choice for top table games, they would be a valuable asset to everyone else.

Of course, I'm playing devil's advocate here.
The truth is that DG (and TS for that matter) have been left out of every single update that has been applied to all other chaos legions - the shadowspear units, the thunder hammer chaos lord from black fortress, the specialist detachments from vigilus, the daemon weapons from psychic awakening and prayers. Would you bet on the tallyman getting prayers with PA? I know I wouldn't.
We don't have vindicators despite the codex describing how we do. We don't have obliterators, despite Mortarion being one of the two primarchs that created them. We don't have masters of possessions despite daemon engines being our thing and Barbarus being littered in factories exactly as described in the MoP's fluff. We have possessed, but no greater possessed.


Obviously, I don't want DG to be rolled back into the codex, but right now they very much feel like a codex that GW simply forgot about. If this is what it means to have your own codex, Emperor's Children and World Eaters should pray that they'll never get their own.

Far as the Tallyman goes, I don't think I want, or need him to have prayers. While a lot of what CSM have gotten is semi-fun and fairly fluffy, a lot of it is poorly implemented. When was the last time you saw a Master of Possession? Even with the upgrade to the prayers system - how often do you see Dark Apostles? CSM players (myself included) are almost universal in deriding a lot of that new stuff. Disco-Lord aside, while the ideas behind a lot of them are fun, the implementation is weak at best. I agree from a fluff standpoint that it's kind of silly DG don't have some of those options, but the thread was specifically about improving the competitive level, and I'm not sure some of those units are going to cut it. Someone like the Tallyman for example, doesn't need "prayers", he just needs a more reliable way to get CP back, and the ability to bypass the rule that you can only regain 1 cp (unless he already does this - I haven't used hi in so long I do not recall/know if they made an exception for him).

Also true we don't have Vindis, and agree that it's kind of a dumb oversight, but they suck, so I don't know how getting them fixes the over-all army level. Like I said, I agree with a lot of your points about what they don't have (but SHOULD have) from the CSM book. I'm just not sure a lot of those things really make them that much better in the competitive sense.

I do think it's interesting that they are mentioned in Vigilus, but didn't really get anything from it, but I also have to wonder (like most other things GW does) how much of that is driven by sales. I don't know too many DG players, and the ones I DO know tend to be much like myself - our armies are complete. Painted, pointed, based and ready to play. I don't have much of a need for too many more DG purchases unless we get new models. I even have the Gellerpox minis ...
I know even fewer Tsons players, but they are in a similar boat - we own everything we need, so GW doesn't stand to make too much money from us, and neither faction (despite DG being in the starter) tends to draw new people. So they do what they have always done and update the armies most likely to see a higher return on the investment.

Heck, they even forgot to nerf our cultists, they still get our legion trait.

GTFO! Seriously?! How did I miss that?!

I've just been playing them this whole time like they do NOT get the trait. If what you're saying is accurate, we now have the best cultists in the game!

It's true. Our cultists rule supreme.

It's true. Our cultists rule supreme.

Well, if nothing else, this thread has at least helped MY Death Guard become more competitive!

Tycho wrote:
Far as the Tallyman goes, I don't think I want, or need him to have prayers. While a lot of what CSM have gotten is semi-fun and fairly fluffy, a lot of it is poorly implemented. When was the last time you saw a Master of Possession? Even with the upgrade to the prayers system - how often do you see Dark Apostles? CSM players (myself included) are almost universal in deriding a lot of that new stuff. Disco-Lord aside, while the ideas behind a lot of them are fun, the implementation is weak at best. I agree from a fluff standpoint that it's kind of silly DG don't have some of those options, but the thread was specifically about improving the competitive level, and I'm not sure some of those units are going to cut it. Someone like the Tallyman for example, doesn't need "prayers", he just needs a more reliable way to get CP back, and the ability to bypass the rule that you can only regain 1 cp (unless he already does this - I haven't used hi in so long I do not recall/know if they made an exception for him).

The tallyman is an apostle and therefore should have prayers. The CP rule is on top of that, and yes he can get back more than one CP, but only for death guard stratagems.

I'm not really after Death Guard being super duper competitive but it would be nice to actually stand a chance. The last tourney I went to before the world broke I lost every game and really, I didn't even come close to winning one.

Bit the bullet over lockdown and have bought a Nurgle Daemons battalion to soup up. Been holding off doing so but think it's time to move away from mono builds.

Really prefer the idea of just Death Guard though so hopefully the new book is tasty.

I think I'd be surprised if there wasn't a biggest boss/veteran intercessors style strat that gave +1T and DR to non-vehicle units that don't have it.

As for the subfactions, each vector has a signature disease, which is another route the various buffs could take. A variety of debuff auras rather than armywide buff.

1st is the Harbingers, and has Typhus and is zombie plague focused
2nd Company hasn't got a fancy name but uses armoured vehicles and carries a rust blade that effects armour and vehicles
3rd is Mortarion's Anvil and is a defensive focused force blessed with a sweaty fever
4th doesn't have a name but is led by a deamonic swarm of flies, and specialises in summoning and sorcerers. Their disease seems linked to their lord and effects infantry
5th is Poxmongers who specialise in Daemon engines, their disease causes bleeding
6th is the Ferrymen/Brethren of the fly and has a lot of Blightlords who are infested with a parasite called "the Droning"
7th is the Chosen Sons, who seem to specialise in alchemy and grenades.

deathguard is the exemple of how unbalanced is an army themed to be resilient and wining fighting " a long war" in a lethal environement were games are decided mostly at the end of turn 2.

fighting a long war:

-slow. few projections options, 4"-5" movement on troops, noting to improve charge odds.
- dangerous at mid range with few and expensive long range option.
- resiliant: improved T, distinguishly resilient.

The problem here is the last dot . This is not enought in the meta.
If you can't be dangerous early you need to be nearly impossible to delete.
Specialy since you have no mobility and need to expose yourself.

let's be honest the only thing deathguard need is the old wounding chart.
The new one with the profusion of flat +1 to wound on the dice result and overabundance of rerolls mean that even a t8 3+ 5++ dr is not enought.

plague marines are not up to the task. they need those 2 wounds.
Why?
Beause if they are cheaper an stay at 1 wound they gona pack more punch wich is not what you want.
bonus: multidamage weapons are super effective against 1 wound DR infantry anyway.
This is the main problem, deathguard units can't be cheaper they need to be harder to kill.

plague burst crawler is balanced that way. designed to achieve few but stay until the very end but if there is nothing left to help him it's pointless.

we do not need more lethality.
deathguard is already incredibly deadly in close combat /short range.
We just need to stay in the game.

Crippling the enemy:
maluses of all sorts. overheating hex on units wounded by plague weapon/ -1 bs for unit in range of xxx unit/ negative reroll of all sorts/ movement limitations (units 7" from deathshrouds get -2 to movement ) etc.

Death guard is one of the early 8th ed codex.
It wasn't durable enought already (new wound chart) and with all the powercreeping going on it's worst at the dawn of 9th ed.

 Tastyfish wrote:
I think I'd be surprised if there wasn't a biggest boss/veteran intercessors style strat that gave +1T and DR to non-vehicle units that don't have it.

As for the subfactions, each vector has a signature disease, which is another route the various buffs could take. A variety of debuff auras rather than armywide buff.

1st is the Harbingers, and has Typhus and is zombie plague focused
2nd Company hasn't got a fancy name but uses armoured vehicles and carries a rust blade that effects armour and vehicles
3rd is Mortarion's Anvil and is a defensive focused force blessed with a sweaty fever
4th doesn't have a name but is led by a deamonic swarm of flies, and specialises in summoning and sorcerers. Their disease seems linked to their lord and effects infantry
5th is Poxmongers who specialise in Daemon engines, their disease causes bleeding
6th is the Ferrymen/Brethren of the fly and has a lot of Blightlords who are infested with a parasite called "the Droning"
7th is the Chosen Sons, who seem to specialise in alchemy and grenades.

The second are the Pallid Hand! And they specialise in armoured assaults (involving oldies such as predators & land raiders) and are harbingers of the ferric blight.

Hear me out a 4+ DR or even a 3+ DR that would be truly resilient its or how about this change DR to a 4+ and have all characters or at least HQs gain revoltingly resilient and get a 3+ DR it's no different than a 3++ from a storm shield we definitely need more resilience even add the AP thing from battle sisters stoic endurance

Well, a flat +1 to DR when you run a pure DG army would certainly help.

Summoning Poxealkers could be a fun gimmick. IDK about competitive but it would be pretty thematic. Outflanking PW would be interesting too.

I'm just really hoping for poxwalker buffs, since I never bought into the Plagebearer spam.

Moonknight wrote:
Hear me out a 4+ DR or even a 3+ DR that would be truly resilient its or how about this change DR to a 4+ and have all characters or at least HQs gain revoltingly resilient and get a 3+ DR it's no different than a 3++ from a storm shield we definitely need more resilience even add the AP thing from battle sisters stoic endurance

Eh DR is absolutely different to inv save. Hard to take request seriously when you claim 3+++ is no different than 3++.

Being able to pick up a unit of pox walkers and have them deep strike at full strength would be rad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Less than a third is usable. You can pretend it is, but in reality it's just a bunch of bloat that does little for the core army. Speaking of which, core Thousand Son armies didn't change, probably because nothing much of value was added!

I know this is a few days late and dangerously off topic but I feel I need to prove my statement about 1k PA. I will list the following things that have made a huge impact on the 1ksons.
An extra cast per turn or smite.
Psychic powers we got that are top tier are : Time Flux, Warp Reality, Seeded Strategy, Sorc Facade (which is unreal and fun to use. gets down right abusive with forgeworld). So we have 4 of 9 being beastly. And the only really bad ones outright is Attempted Possession and possibly Astral Blast. The others have uses depending on circumstance.

Things stay just as good with our new stratagems. Infernal Fusillade is bonkers for its price. Magister is great but should have been two extra warlord traits not one. Regardless its still top notch. Sorc infusion rounds it out for the top tier. Adepts (never peril if you have CP) and Indomitable foes are also close to top tier.

Then we have the new warlord traits which we did suffer from. The only real standout is Duplic tact which is so damn good. We have a few really really bad ones here.

As for relics, the Capricious Crest can net you a extra d6 smite damage if used on Magnus (d3 on DPs and sorcs) OR outright cause a power to not manifest and possibly peril if used on your opponent. Perfidious Tome is also insane. The hourglass and Pythic are situational but great if the conditions are met.

Id say we are a bit above 1/3rd on our PA. You should re-read it or try them out in play to see just how good the things I have listed are. As for hijacking this thread from the death guard I apologize and this will be my last post on the subject of 1ksons and PA.

Moonknight wrote:
Hear me out a 4+ DR or even a 3+ DR that would be truly resilient its or how about this change DR to a 4+ and have all characters or at least HQs gain revoltingly resilient and get a 3+ DR it's no different than a 3++ from a storm shield we definitely need more resilience even add the AP thing from battle sisters stoic endurance

I'm not so much a fan of just going down the same spiral as 6th/7th edition where increased firepower generated an increase of resilience until we had rerollable 2++, a whole army with 4+++, decurion Necrons with super 4+++ and Iron Hands. Maybe that ship has sailed, but I'd hope for some decrease in firepower in "9th edition". Personally I was a fan of the DG codex in regards to DR never being better than 5+++, it looked as if they had learned form the past.
So, an additional wound for Plague Marines is okay for me, maybe increase the rerolls for the surgeon to all dice with a stratagem, some of the Iron Hands stuff looks nice with decreasing the damage a unit takes, but a straight 4+++ I'm not so much a fan of as it would just make our army even more annoying to face .
Also, cloud of flies should be reworded. It's very strange that it has to be activated in your movement phase.

I agree that DG were pretty well done at their time, but two and a half years later I don't think 4+++ would be game breaking, especially if you connect it to running a pure DG army with no soup to mitigate their weaknesses - range and speed.

 Jidmah wrote:
I agree that DG were pretty well done at their time, but two and a half years later I don't think 4+++ would be game breaking, especially if you connect it to running a pure DG army with no soup to mitigate their weaknesses - range and speed.

I mean i remember a time were plague marines were allways 4+++.

I also agree that it wouldn't necessary be game breaking. I guess you could go for a tier system though. Cultists in a mono DG army could get a 6+++.
PM and all other could improve their FNP by one.

As it stands the non plague Alpha legion has better PM in regars to durability then DG and i find that a bit, iffy.

To be fair, ever since bolter discipline pretty much every legion and renegade chapter that can have marks of nurgle has better plague marines than DG do

I'd be wary about building toughness because of the Necron experience in 7th. It can get obnoxious very quickly.

To my mind with Necrons you had a clear tier system. Certain armies could punch through the resilience - so Necrons became not especially competitive about mid way through that edition. Other armies however could not scratch them at all. With low tier armies you fired your entire army at them and killed three necron warriors. There wasn't even the illusion of a game.

Which is the problem. You can buff the toughness so DG can advance across the table in the face of an optimised Space Marine gunline - but then armies with weaker damage output won't be able to scratch them. Which is going to be incredibly dispiriting. This may be good for DG - but its not good for the game.

I'd buff their offensive output. It might not be as fluffy as all defensive stats all the time - but its easier to balance. Maybe a bit copy-cat, but a sort of Grey Knight mechanic of activated rolling plagues giving a certain buff each turn could be interesting.

That is true, I remember some horrible games against the necron decurion with my orks. 4+/4+++ with re-rolls was pretty obnoxious, and I do have comparable games with my Death Guard against weaker armies or players.

This is usually related to me investing heavy into the DG-specific daemon englines and Mortarion though, not to Plague Marines, Pox Walkers, Cultists or any of the units we share with Codex:CSM. Those thend to die like flies.

I would buff the asymetric warfare aspect of the army, do it with strats or whatever but introduce "strains" of virus or some such that they can use or purchase, pop a -1 T on an enemy unit or force the entire unit to take T test or die, basically give them plenty of tools via these kinds of rules to heavily reinforce the theme.

Prime example is the plagueburst crawler, give it a shot that makes a piece of terrain "dangerous" for a turn, anyone inside take a T test or takes 1 mortal wound, very fluffy

 Formosa wrote:
I would buff the asymetric warfare aspect of the army, do it with strats or whatever but introduce "strains" of virus or some such that they can use or purchase, pop a -1 T on an enemy unit or force the entire unit to take T test or die, basically give them plenty of tools via these kinds of rules to heavily reinforce the theme.

Prime example is the plagueburst crawler, give it a shot that makes a piece of terrain "dangerous" for a turn, anyone inside take a T test or takes 1 mortal wound, very fluffy

That could be an interesting way to make the crawler a little better. You could give it various stratagems for debuffs on units that it hits, maybe make W/ BS/S/ or T -1 until the next DG shooting phase for every unit that it hits as it is throwing some sort of plague at them depending on the stratagem you pick. Gives DG something to spend their command points on and it could be a way to reduce a key units' effectiveness.

 DrGiggles wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I would buff the asymetric warfare aspect of the army, do it with strats or whatever but introduce "strains" of virus or some such that they can use or purchase, pop a -1 T on an enemy unit or force the entire unit to take T test or die, basically give them plenty of tools via these kinds of rules to heavily reinforce the theme.

Prime example is the plagueburst crawler, give it a shot that makes a piece of terrain "dangerous" for a turn, anyone inside take a T test or takes 1 mortal wound, very fluffy

That could be an interesting way to make the crawler a little better. You could give it various stratagems for debuffs on units that it hits, maybe make W/ BS/S/ or T -1 until the next DG shooting phase for every unit that it hits as it is throwing some sort of plague at them depending on the stratagem you pick. Gives DG something to spend their command points on and it could be a way to reduce a key units' effectiveness.

I agree. It's also why I'd like to see a 'shoot again' strategem for MBHs. Their default weapons aren't amazing, so it wouldn't be too powerful, but it would be a nice buff to a fun unit.

 DrGiggles wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I would buff the asymetric warfare aspect of the army, do it with strats or whatever but introduce "strains" of virus or some such that they can use or purchase, pop a -1 T on an enemy unit or force the entire unit to take T test or die, basically give them plenty of tools via these kinds of rules to heavily reinforce the theme.

Prime example is the plagueburst crawler, give it a shot that makes a piece of terrain "dangerous" for a turn, anyone inside take a T test or takes 1 mortal wound, very fluffy

That could be an interesting way to make the crawler a little better. You could give it various stratagems for debuffs on units that it hits, maybe make W/ BS/S/ or T -1 until the next DG shooting phase for every unit that it hits as it is throwing some sort of plague at them depending on the stratagem you pick. Gives DG something to spend their command points on and it could be a way to reduce a key units' effectiveness.

Or you could go for full synergy and give some units, like mortyrion, the crawlers, the flyers etc mini auras or stratagems that would buff stuff. nothing huge, but maybe next to mortyrion DR is better , near the flyers the -from flies is stronger, and the crawlers buff the MW dealing a bit.

Prime example is the plagueburst crawler, give it a shot that makes a piece of terrain "dangerous" for a turn, anyone inside take a T test or takes 1 mortal wound, very fluffy

Fluffy, but since no one uses terrain rules, IDK how competitive that makes it. Plus, since terrain in 8th has largely been reduced to "I'm sitting IN it and not moving", "I'm hiding BEHIND it to block LoS", or "I'm moving around it and ignoring it", IDK how useful that would be. That said, I'd definitely be interested in some sort of Strat that adds something to the Mortar. I want that gun to be awesome in the worst way, and it just ... isnt ... It really says something when you have a tank that's designed as an artillery piece, and most of the competitive advice for it is "Put the flamers on it and run it upfield" lol.

I think keeping T5 on Plague Marines is fine, but I think you could get away with making the DR a 4+ if you run mono-DG (for Plague Marines ONLY - everyone else keeps the 5+), and they wouldn't be at the above example of the 7th Ed Necrons. I would keep the 5+ on everything else, but maybe give the Rhino a 5+ DR as well. That would not only make PMs more competitive, it would actually give you a reason to take them at all. What I like about DG is that they now play like they "should" in that the play style matches the fluff. If you start buffing the offensive output, you just start pushing them more towards Imperial Marines and away from DG.

EDIT:

I think I said this before, but similar to the Tsons, I think it would be good to have some new psychic powers that help with toughness on infantry, and/or with bringing models back from the dead. As it stands, it's a lot harder to kill my Tsons than it is to kill my DG, and that just feels wrong.

 Formosa wrote:
I would buff the asymetric warfare aspect of the army, do it with strats or whatever but introduce "strains" of virus or some such that they can use or purchase, pop a -1 T on an enemy unit or force the entire unit to take T test or die, basically give them plenty of tools via these kinds of rules to heavily reinforce the theme.

Prime example is the plagueburst crawler, give it a shot that makes a piece of terrain "dangerous" for a turn, anyone inside take a T test or takes 1 mortal wound, very fluffy

I like the plague idea. An interesting way to implement it would be instead of buffing our army, you could release plague strains would debuff all non-nurgle units, basically reverse chapter tactics.

I think plague marines could be fixed giving them +1W +1A and plague weapon rules for their bolters.

+5FNP with 1W is trash because each 2D weapon will nearly always kill you. But with two wounds the probability of saving one dice and tanking two whole shots is very high.

Wouldn't that make them more resilient then termintors ?

Terminators have a 4++ on top.

Just gotta say, as an avid Death Guard player, I'm loving some of the theory crafting you guys are doing. Keeping me entertained through lockdown.

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't that make them more resilient then termintors ?

Well yeah blighlord terminators should go to 3W with 3A each (Or only 3W if you want because Nurgle is more about resilience than offensive). I mean paladins exist, is not that rare. And for the love of god make Deathsroud terminators 3W too. For them to have 2W is insane. I mean look at them:

Well yeah blighlord terminators should go to 3W with 3A each (Or only 3W if you want because Nurgle is more about resilience than offensive). I mean paladins exist, is not that rare. And for the love of god make Deathsroud terminators 3W too. For them to have 2W is insane. I mean look at them:

Agreed. For what they are, I always feel like they die too easily.

Tycho wrote:

Well yeah blighlord terminators should go to 3W with 3A each (Or only 3W if you want because Nurgle is more about resilience than offensive). I mean paladins exist, is not that rare. And for the love of god make Deathsroud terminators 3W too. For them to have 2W is insane. I mean look at them:

Agreed. For what they are, I always feel like they die too easily.

All terminators should have three wounds. Blightlord terminators should have four. So with their 4++ and dr they're tougher than a Custodes terminator, but not as good offensively.

All terminators should have three wounds. Blightlord terminators should have four. So with their 4++ and dr they're tougher than a Custodes terminator, but not as good offensively

I like this idea a lot. It fixes a lot more than just some DG units. That said, I could see 4w Blight Lords being a tough pill to swallow for some. Do you think you'd keep the points the same for that wound, or would they need to go up a little more? I actually feel like, given the rest of the army, keeping the points level where it is would work (even with the extra stuff), but curious what everyone else thinks?

Tycho wrote:

All terminators should have three wounds. Blightlord terminators should have four. So with their 4++ and dr they're tougher than a Custodes terminator, but not as good offensively

I like this idea a lot. It fixes a lot more than just some DG units. That said, I could see 4w Blight Lords being a tough pill to swallow for some. Do you think you'd keep the points the same for that wound, or would they need to go up a little more? I actually feel like, given the rest of the army, keeping the points level where it is would work (even with the extra stuff), but curious what everyone else thinks?

For 4W they would need to go up in points. Not a lot since that defeats the purpose of a buff but I'm not sure you can double their wounds for nothing. Maybe make them 40 pts without any war gear? That would make a stock BL Termi 47pts, making a 5 man squad 235 points if my napkin math is correct. That doesn't seem bad for 21 T5 wounds with a 2+/4++/5+++.

Siegfriedfr wrote:
One page of stratagem was the good design. A truckload of them for other factions was the wrong one.

Not particularly hopeful 9th will be better on that front, this stratagem bloat is probably awesome from a competitive point of view, since it offers new tactical options.

You are totally right, one page of stratagem for each keyword. But they need to add a few more universal stratagem, and change the command point generation so that it is generated each turn.
Some of the things I'm reading here makes no sense really. You really think a 4+ FNP and 2W min is balanced ? This would make DG absolutly horrendous to play against, available to just wash off most of the things your opponent can throw at you.

 DrGiggles wrote:

Tycho wrote:

All terminators should have three wounds. Blightlord terminators should have four. So with their 4++ and dr they're tougher than a Custodes terminator, but not as good offensively

I like this idea a lot. It fixes a lot more than just some DG units. That said, I could see 4w Blight Lords being a tough pill to swallow for some. Do you think you'd keep the points the same for that wound, or would they need to go up a little more? I actually feel like, given the rest of the army, keeping the points level where it is would work (even with the extra stuff), but curious what everyone else thinks?

For 4W they would need to go up in points. Not a lot since that defeats the purpose of a buff but I'm not sure you can double their wounds for nothing. Maybe make them 40 pts without any war gear? That would make a stock BL Termi 47pts, making a 5 man squad 235 points if my napkin math is correct. That doesn't seem bad for 21 T5 wounds with a 2+/4++/5+++.

Yeah you'd definitely need a points bump. That sounds reasonable.

You are totally right, one page of stratagem for each keyword. But they need to add a few more universal stratagem, and change the command point generation so that it is generated each turn.
Some of the things I'm reading here makes no sense really. You really think a 4+ FNP and 2W min is balanced ? This would make DG absolutly horrendous to play against, available to just wash off most of the things your opponent can throw at you.

Yes, I think it would work because they're already so expensive that you don't see many of them. Those buffs would probably mean an additional increase in points, so you would still not be seeing a lot of those units. It would just mean that, instead of 60 Pox-walkers, a mono-DG list would maybe suddenly have less walkers, and maybe two squads of actual marines in it. In terms of a competitive unit (which again is the point here), I can think of a lot of things that are currently fielded that aren't causing issues and are on-par with, or better than that suggestion. That said, I'd even be fine with keeping the 5+ FNP but just giving them a second wound. As currently constructed, DG marines die so easily it's absurd. Since they don't have any offensive punch (which is fine because they shouldn't have both offense AND defense imo), there's absolutely no reason to take them right now. Heck, my Tsons are WAY harder to kill than my DG are right now, and 8th is so lethal that even they don't stick around too long.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think the suggestion is too crazy, and no, just changing the way strategems and command points work won't help their competitive standing. In fact, it likely would do more to hurt them given what they currently have.

So if toughness and resilience is supposed to be their thing (and it currently isn't), how would you fix them? Because just tossing in a few strats isn't going to get it done.

EDIT:

Yeah you'd definitely need a points bump. That sounds reasonable.

Yeah, I think DrGiggle's suggested bump for that feels about right TBH.

They should definitely have 3 wounds minimum. I always look at them and wonder why only 2 wounds?

Table wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Less than a third is usable. You can pretend it is, but in reality it's just a bunch of bloat that does little for the core army. Speaking of which, core Thousand Son armies didn't change, probably because nothing much of value was added!

I know this is a few days late and dangerously off topic but I feel I need to prove my statement about 1k PA. I will list the following things that have made a huge impact on the 1ksons.
An extra cast per turn or smite.
Psychic powers we got that are top tier are : Time Flux, Warp Reality, Seeded Strategy, Sorc Facade (which is unreal and fun to use. gets down right abusive with forgeworld). So we have 4 of 9 being beastly. And the only really bad ones outright is Attempted Possession and possibly Astral Blast. The others have uses depending on circumstance.

Things stay just as good with our new stratagems. Infernal Fusillade is bonkers for its price. Magister is great but should have been two extra warlord traits not one. Regardless its still top notch. Sorc infusion rounds it out for the top tier. Adepts (never peril if you have CP) and Indomitable foes are also close to top tier.

Then we have the new warlord traits which we did suffer from. The only real standout is Duplic tact which is so damn good. We have a few really really bad ones here.

As for relics, the Capricious Crest can net you a extra d6 smite damage if used on Magnus (d3 on DPs and sorcs) OR outright cause a power to not manifest and possibly peril if used on your opponent. Perfidious Tome is also insane. The hourglass and Pythic are situational but great if the conditions are met.

Id say we are a bit above 1/3rd on our PA. You should re-read it or try them out in play to see just how good the things I have listed are. As for hijacking this thread from the death guard I apologize and this will be my last post on the subject of 1ksons and PA.

Honestly I can't take you seriously since you said Internal Fusillade, of all things, was "bonkers". I've already read the rules for Thousand Sons and what they got. What they got was extremely tame and overall not helpful.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Table wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Less than a third is usable. You can pretend it is, but in reality it's just a bunch of bloat that does little for the core army. Speaking of which, core Thousand Son armies didn't change, probably because nothing much of value was added!

I know this is a few days late and dangerously off topic but I feel I need to prove my statement about 1k PA. I will list the following things that have made a huge impact on the 1ksons.
An extra cast per turn or smite.
Psychic powers we got that are top tier are : Time Flux, Warp Reality, Seeded Strategy, Sorc Facade (which is unreal and fun to use. gets down right abusive with forgeworld). So we have 4 of 9 being beastly. And the only really bad ones outright is Attempted Possession and possibly Astral Blast. The others have uses depending on circumstance.

Things stay just as good with our new stratagems. Infernal Fusillade is bonkers for its price. Magister is great but should have been two extra warlord traits not one. Regardless its still top notch. Sorc infusion rounds it out for the top tier. Adepts (never peril if you have CP) and Indomitable foes are also close to top tier.

Then we have the new warlord traits which we did suffer from. The only real standout is Duplic tact which is so damn good. We have a few really really bad ones here.

As for relics, the Capricious Crest can net you a extra d6 smite damage if used on Magnus (d3 on DPs and sorcs) OR outright cause a power to not manifest and possibly peril if used on your opponent. Perfidious Tome is also insane. The hourglass and Pythic are situational but great if the conditions are met.

Id say we are a bit above 1/3rd on our PA. You should re-read it or try them out in play to see just how good the things I have listed are. As for hijacking this thread from the death guard I apologize and this will be my last post on the subject of 1ksons and PA.

Honestly I can't take you seriously since you said Internal Fusillade, of all things, was "bonkers". I've already read the rules for Thousand Sons and what they got. What they got was extremely tame and overall not helpful.

Shooting twice for 1 cp is bonkers. Double the firepower? One CP? Sign me up. And at this point, and im not even sure you have ever played or played against 1ksons. I mean giving each psykers 3 manifests is worth the price of admission alone. But you do you. I mean your unwillingness to address anything I type because of (arbitrary reason) makes the discussion moot at this point. I have provided many examples to back up my claim and you have yet to provide one.

As for DG. How about a army wide -1 to hit? This combined with DR could do the trick. Maybe? Another problem I have, and this bleeds into 1ksons and Emp children as well, is that our load outs are not custom. Why dont 1kson helbrutes use inferno rounds. Why are EC dreadnoughts not sporting noise weapons? Why are not DG hell brutes sporting plague weapons and or blight launchers? Its pure laziness on GW's part.

Sorry for the edits. Trying to be diplomatic. Probably failing.

Army-wide -1 to hit is a broken mechanic and should not be given to anyone ever again.

The reason why helbrutes have no plague weapons is simply because of the "no model, no rules" issue.

Table wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Table wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Less than a third is usable. You can pretend it is, but in reality it's just a bunch of bloat that does little for the core army. Speaking of which, core Thousand Son armies didn't change, probably because nothing much of value was added!

I know this is a few days late and dangerously off topic but I feel I need to prove my statement about 1k PA. I will list the following things that have made a huge impact on the 1ksons.
An extra cast per turn or smite.
Psychic powers we got that are top tier are : Time Flux, Warp Reality, Seeded Strategy, Sorc Facade (which is unreal and fun to use. gets down right abusive with forgeworld). So we have 4 of 9 being beastly. And the only really bad ones outright is Attempted Possession and possibly Astral Blast. The others have uses depending on circumstance.

Things stay just as good with our new stratagems. Infernal Fusillade is bonkers for its price. Magister is great but should have been two extra warlord traits not one. Regardless its still top notch. Sorc infusion rounds it out for the top tier. Adepts (never peril if you have CP) and Indomitable foes are also close to top tier.

Then we have the new warlord traits which we did suffer from. The only real standout is Duplic tact which is so damn good. We have a few really really bad ones here.

As for relics, the Capricious Crest can net you a extra d6 smite damage if used on Magnus (d3 on DPs and sorcs) OR outright cause a power to not manifest and possibly peril if used on your opponent. Perfidious Tome is also insane. The hourglass and Pythic are situational but great if the conditions are met.

Id say we are a bit above 1/3rd on our PA. You should re-read it or try them out in play to see just how good the things I have listed are. As for hijacking this thread from the death guard I apologize and this will be my last post on the subject of 1ksons and PA.

Honestly I can't take you seriously since you said Internal Fusillade, of all things, was "bonkers". I've already read the rules for Thousand Sons and what they got. What they got was extremely tame and overall not helpful.

Shooting twice for 1 cp is bonkers. Double the firepower? One CP? Sign me up. And at this point, and im not even sure you have ever played or played against 1ksons. I mean giving each psykers 3 manifests is worth the price of admission alone. But you do you. I mean your unwillingness to address anything I type because of (arbitrary reason) makes the discussion moot at this point. I have provided many examples to back up my claim and you have yet to provide one.

As for DG. How about a army wide -1 to hit? This combined with DR could do the trick. Maybe? Another problem I have, and this bleeds into 1ksons and Emp children as well, is that our load outs are not custom. Why dont 1kson helbrutes use inferno rounds. Why are EC dreadnoughts not sporting noise weapons? Why are not DG hell brutes sporting plague weapons and or blight launchers? Its pure laziness on GW's part.

Sorry for the edits. Trying to be diplomatic. Probably failing.

Shooting twice on something like Rubrics and Scarabs is something you can basically ignore, hence why I'm unable to take this conversation seriously. Shooting twice is good when you're already good at shooting.

WhiteDog wrote:

Siegfriedfr wrote:
One page of stratagem was the good design. A truckload of them for other factions was the wrong one.

Not particularly hopeful 9th will be better on that front, this stratagem bloat is probably awesome from a competitive point of view, since it offers new tactical options.

You are totally right, one page of stratagem for each keyword. But they need to add a few more universal stratagem, and change the command point generation so that it is generated each turn.
Some of the things I'm reading here makes no sense really. You really think a 4+ FNP and 2W min is balanced ? This would make DG absolutly horrendous to play against, available to just wash off most of the things your opponent can throw at you.

As with everything, price is key (And what they pay to be so resilient). You can have custodes with 3W 2+/3++ and -1 to hit for not that much more than an actual blightlord terminator. But they are footsloging slow units without any kind of firepower. You can balance a good, tought, small elite version of Deathguard without a problem. And that could make actually viable having a infantry heavy list that walks across the board supported by artillery.

Army-wide -1 to hit is a broken mechanic and should not be given to anyone ever again.

Agreed on this. A few -1's here and there under the right conditions is cool and fluffy, but I'd hate to be someone like an Ork player, battling someone with an army-wide -1 to hit. No thank you!

As with everything, price is key (And what they pay to be so resilient). You can have custodes with 3W 2+/3++ and -1 to hit for not that much more than an actual blightlord terminator. But they are footsloging slow units without any kind of firepower. You can balance a good, tought, small elite version of Deathguard without a problem. And that could make actually viable having a infantry heavy list that walks across the board supported by artillery.

Exactly. A power-armor focused DG army is never going to be a large force, so upping the durability in the ways that have been suggested really isn't going to be game-breaking in your average competitive setting. Especially if some of those buffs also require a mono-DG build. Plus, again, we're not talking about a squad of 7 guys that can move 12" a turn, have a ton of offensive output AND have durability. We're talking about a unit that is really slow, and doesn't hit that hard. These things balance each other.

In terms of other thoughts - how does everyone feel about Lords of Contagion? I kind of feel like they're a slightly better version of a Mutilator (IE almost useless instead of totally useless) a classic Gdubs trope - really strong in cc, with almost no way to get there reliably. I've toyed many times with running him alongside the BellBoy, but it's not quite enough of a boost. Ideally, he'd be a great Distraction Carnifex, but as he is, he's just too slow even for that. Any thoughts on getting him stuck in a little easier, or giving some other abilities or options that would make him more game-ready in a competitive sense?

Tycho wrote:
Plus, again, we're not talking about a squad of 7 guys that can move 12" a turn, have a ton of offensive output AND have durability.

Yeah, that would be crazy. I mean... who would design a unit like that...


Looks at Shining spears on the distance

Yeah, that would be crazy. I mean... who would design a unit like that...


Looks at Shining spears on the distance

you got me ...

low-key salt successfully detected

Tycho wrote:
In terms of other thoughts - how does everyone feel about Lords of Contagion? I kind of feel like they're a slightly better version of a Mutilator (IE almost useless instead of totally useless) a classic Gdubs trope - really strong in cc, with almost no way to get there reliably. I've toyed many times with running him alongside the BellBoy, but it's not quite enough of a boost. Ideally, he'd be a great Distraction Carnifex, but as he is, he's just too slow even for that. Any thoughts on getting him stuck in a little easier, or giving some other abilities or options that would make him more game-ready in a competitive sense?

Right now, if you really want to make him work, you can deep strike him onto something that doesn't want to move and hope for a successful charge. To make him worth your time he either needs to be so cheap that he passes als cheapest possible HQ tax, or give him an aura that buffs nearby units in a meaningful way, like re-rolling hits.
In general, I think the gift of nurgle aura should trigger at the start of each fight phase (like Mortarion's aura), same for the living plague warlord trait. As it works now, it basically never does anything.

Another idea would be making "Gift of Nurgle" buff pox walkers, and turn Tyhus' "Host of the Destroyer Hive" into a more powerful version of gift of nurgle, for example triggering on a 2+.

Right now, if you really want to make him work, you can deep strike him onto something that doesn't want to move and hope for a successful charge. To make him worth your time he either needs to be so cheap that he passes als cheapest possible HQ tax, or give him an aura that buffs nearby units in a meaningful way, like re-rolling hits.
In general, I think the gift of nurgle aura should trigger at the start of each fight phase (like Mortarion's aura), same for the living plague warlord trait. As it works now, it basically never does anything.

Another idea would be making "Gift of Nurgle" buff pox walkers, and turn Tyhus' "Host of the Destroyer Hive" into a more powerful version of gift of nurgle, for example triggering on a 2+.

I feel that's a good approach. I've generally given up on hoping to get a charge off with a standard Lord as, even with teleporting, he's just so easy to walk away from, but walking Typhus along with a big gaggle of Poxwalkers can be pretty good. If all Lords of Contagion did that, and we just made the Typhus version slightly better (maybe it's better buffs, maybe it's the same buffs but with a bigger aura), that would make them a lot more useful.

Lords of contagion could give all poxwalkers buffs to S and T and typhus add a +1A on top of that.

 Galas wrote:
Lords of contagion could give all poxwalkers buffs to S and T and typhus add a +1A on top of that.

I'd rather make him more unique, he is like 40pts cheaper than Typhus but isn't a psyker and doesn't do any buffing whatsoever.

I'd give him re-rolls of 1 and give DEATH GUARD TERMINATORS +1 to charge or +1 to wound in the fight phase. That or cut like 20 points off of him because right now he just doesn't have a good role since he has no way to reliably get into combat after deepstriking and doesn't buff anything.

I think he meant that they get Typhus' Aura and Typhus gets a +1A aura instead.

But I also like the idea of having him make terminators more liable - that would instantly make Deathshrouds viable as well.

 Jidmah wrote:
I think he meant that they get Typhus' Aura and Typhus gets a +1A aura instead.

But I also like the idea of having him make terminators more liable - that would instantly make Deathshrouds viable as well.

That's what I was thinking, one simple change that helps 3+ units and can't be abused by soup.

DG need some serious buffs. The only faction with a worse winrate atm is inquisition...

If I were to buff the book as it is now:
Plaguemarines and terminators needs +1wound.
Bolters should be plague weapons, and no that won't be op even with arch contaminatior. It's still only ap0 S4.
Poxwalkers need bigger max unit size.
Blightbringer and putrifier should cost about 2/3 of what they do atm.
Surgeon should give all infantry reroll all failed DR
Foetide bloatdrones should cost the same as the PBC with flamers.
Bligthaulers are still too expensive
All vehicles in the cod x needs DR.
And for the Lord of contagion, maybe give it a undeniable deepstrike 7 more than away? Both for fluff and playability.

But with other potential buffs and new abilities, then it's hard to say.

Lots of good point

Something interesting I came up with would be giving Lords of Contagions Mortarion's -1T aura.
It's clearly meant to synergize with the many S5-7 weapons we have, but never really comes up due to the way Mortarion plays.

 Jidmah wrote:
Lots of good point

Something interesting I came up with would be giving Lords of Contagions Mortarion's -1T aura.
It's clearly meant to synergize with the many S5-7 weapons we have, but never really comes up due to the way Mortarion plays.

That would be a good change. They still need a better way to get him within 7" though. Maybe 9th will bring back the old deep strike rules so you can make a gamble and have it pay off.

Death Guard is/was my primary army in 8th so here are my thoughts. First, we have to address the elephant in the room: The design of 8th edition does not reward elite armies at all but bodies (AOS has a similar problem), so almost any army which is based around smaller but tougher units is at a disadvantage due to how they've designed the missions and objective capping. That's not a DG-specific problem though but it's a big reason why they are facing issues. Hopefully, 9th will fix that but I have my doubts and I don't really want to go the route AOS has with some armies where they count as more than one model (although I do think this might help vehicles and such).

So onto ideas/fixes for Death Guard:

First and foremost, the stratagems need a complete rework. Being an early Codex, Death Guard suffers greatly from what may have been the proto design for Stratagems where they appeared to be interesting extras but not the basis for an army which they seem to have evolved into where we are now and most of what you want/need is CP for stratagems because they are so powerful. I'm pretty sure Death Guard has the lowest, or one of the lowest, counts of stratagems in the game currently so that absolutely needs to be addressed.

Next, units. Plague Marines and all the terminators need +1 Wound. 5+++ DR sounds great on paper but in-game is pretty meaningless. Bolters being plague weapons I like and doesn't seem to do much harm. While we're at it all vehicles need 5+++ as well; this would go a long way to giving more options. A Helbrute, for example, is a really poor choice despite fitting in well with the army because they don't have DR so they are way less resilient than say a PBC or Bloat-Drone. A Helbrute with a 5+ DR save becomes a bit more interesting. Same with a Predator or Land Raider (which now IMHO would become actually useful). Poxwalkers I personally hate (because the game pushes using them over Plague Marines) but bare minimum unit size needs to be up to 40, at the very least 30. 20 is too few. I also think that Plaguebearers should count as being Death Guard for army purposes (i.e. taking them in the same detachment doesn't break allegiance) so you can bring daemons on without summoning or soup, but I don't see this really changing anything, and in any event, they would need some of the stratagems brought over from Chaos Daemons to make them useful. I feel that Death Guard should have Obliterators, but without EC they aren't even that great although DR Obliterators sound on paper like they'd be scary. I can't think of any real reason why DG doesn't have access to the Forgefiend/Maulerfiend so throw them in as well. The Lord Disco makes sense so I'd include him too since he didn't exist when DG was made. And that's another way to buff daemon engines (see more below) although you normally see him in a trio and I do wonder if what I outline below makes souping in DG overpowered, but it seems like they are moving away from that so let's hope/assume that 9th restricts soup so this won't benefit other than pure DG, which is what we want.

Next, our main vehicles, the daemon engines, suffer from being daemon engines by which I mean the 4+ to hit. That alone is enough to screw over the Blight-Hauler which is still expensive (although you can't really lower it that much, it should be priced around the same as a Helbrute) and wants you to bring 3 for the bonus alone, but more on him in a moment. The PBC is presented as our Vindicator equivalent (despite actually having Vindicators in the lore) but how do you see it used? As a bulldozer with not-flamers to offset the 4+ BS. So that alone is going to screw over daemon engines because a 4+ to hit is terrible. At bare minimum vehicles and Daemon Engines need to ignore moving and shooting penalties. In fact, with the way special rules are now let's make that the Death Guard army rule:

Creeping Death: All infantry, vehicles, and Helbrutes (likely not the keyword due to FW abuse but maybe) get DR, can move and shoot without penalty and rapid-fire weapons get it from 18" instead of 24". Units that already have DR can re-roll 1s or something like that (I don't want to give a +1 for obvious reasons). Cultists, of course, don't get this as per the new Chaos rule (Mere Mortals, I think it's called).

That makes daemon engines slightly better despite the 4+ probably not going away and gives vehicles and Helbrutes a bit more resiliency so you might see them since the main thing keeping them away is how easily they die. The Blight-Hauler is in a weird place because it's described as filling a similar role to havocs (which DG used to have, RIP 4 special weapon havocs) or Helbrutes (yet we get Helbrutes) but its weapon loadout is garbage because not only does it have a 4+ (improvable to 3+) to hit but each weapon has only one shot which is awful in the big picture. I'm not entirely sure how to fix these guys because you don't want them dirt cheap but as they stand if you give Helbrutes DR then they become completely outclassed since a Helbrute can actually hit stuff. So you don't necessarily want that either and I can't think of a good way to make them into a support unit (given their description of the stink cloud, they feel like they should be supporting Plague Marine infantry rather than be tank hunters) since they have no options so you can't just say swap X weapon for Y weapon; they need to have a Multi-melta and Missile Launcher. Also if we make move-and-fire baseline, it removes another benefit from them.

Next up, characters. Almost all of them are filler garbage that has no real purpose. Right away the Chaos Lord and Sorcerer need to either be removed completely or given DR. No ifs and or buts. There is no reason other than it being a lazy copy-paste job from the CSM version that they shouldn't have DR and I personally never field either simply because they don't feel like Death Guard by not having DR. I'd say keep the Lord (rename him to be one of the other Lord of X types that exist) and give him DR, but get rid of the Sorcerer (see why after this), keep the Terminator Sorc and give him DR. Now let the Malignant Plaguecaster pick from Dark Hereticus, Malefic or Contagion Disciplines (skip Malefic if you want, throwing it in here just because). The other characters aren't much better. Tallyman needs to have his CP regen actually be useful instead of herp derp Nurgle number is 7 so let's make it 7 silliness. Some people have said he should be a Dark Apostle but I don't recall reading anywhere that he fills that role or has prayers, I could have missed something. I wouldn't turn it away though as it gives him a role. Blightbringer (bell guy) should do something like give an actual + Movement speed buff, pretty similar to how Maggotkin in AOS can get ways to move faster than you'd expect despite being Nurgle. Surgeon needs to do something useful because he's less than worthless at the moment. I don't even remember if there's any other characters because they are so forgettable but you get the idea, they all need serious rework because they serve no useful purpose. The Lord of Contagion on paper is a beast but being slow as molasses has no way to get where he needs to, but I'm not sure how to fix that one.

That's some things that I feel off the top of my head would go towards fixing the army but a big problem is still that the game is currently rewarding you for having more bodies than your opponent, not better quality units, and until that changes than any sort of army which doesn't rely on hordes (unless they get ridiculously OP rules like the Marine revamp) is going to be at a disadvantage and I absolutely do not want Death Guard to be mostly poxwalkers and cultists with a few token Plague Marines.

The Tallyman should recover CP on a +7 in 2d6 and give some other kind of aura buff.

The Surgeon should give a reroll 1 and 2 on DR and then be able to resurrect units like an Aphotecary.

The Bell Guy should give the 2d6 to advance and pick highest plus +1 to advance and charge rolls.

But I disagree the game favours hordes. The horde meta is long gone, we can see it on the top lists and top tables. The games favours good units, no matter what they are. Sometimes they are giant things like Castellans, other times they are hordes, other elite infantry, etc... the meta changes and adaptes.

Wayniac wrote:
The Blight-Hauler is in a weird place because it's described as filling a similar role to havocs (which DG used to have, RIP 4 special weapon havocs) or Helbrutes (yet we get Helbrutes) but its weapon loadout is garbage because not only does it have a 4+ (improvable to 3+) to hit but each weapon has only one shot which is awful in the big picture. I'm not entirely sure how to fix these guys because you don't want them dirt cheap but as they stand if you give Helbrutes DR then they become completely outclassed since a Helbrute can actually hit stuff.

I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make, but I'd like to see their Tri-Lobe rule buffed so that it grants +1 to hit for each additional Hauler in the unit. That way, even though they would still be stuck with Multi-melta and Missile Launcher, a unit of three would hit on 2s, and a unit of two would still get some benefit.

I think they could also be given a cheap 'shoot again stratagem' without breaking the game.

Wayniac wrote:
I'm pretty sure Death Guard has the lowest, or one of the lowest, counts of stratagems in the game currently so that absolutely needs to be addressed.

We are tied with assassins for the least amount of stratagems in a codex

Poxwalkers I personally hate (because the game pushes using them over Plague Marines) but bare minimum unit size needs to be up to 40, at the very least 30. 20 is too few.

I've seen this tossed around a bit. Why?

The Lord Disco makes sense so I'd include him too since he didn't exist when DG was made.

Lord Discordant is a warpsmith though, and DG don't get warpsmiths. The master of possessions and the attached greater possessed and venom crawler would make a lot of sense fluff-wise though.

At bare minimum vehicles and Daemon Engines need to ignore moving and shooting penalties. In fact, with the way special rules are now let's make that the Death Guard army rule:

Yes, this. In the beginning of the edition extending our trait to all units might have been too powerful, but now it might be the offensive push we need.

Creeping Death: All infantry, vehicles, and Helbrutes (likely not the keyword due to FW abuse but maybe) get DR, can move and shoot without penalty and rapid-fire weapons get it from 18" instead of 24". Units that already have DR can re-roll 1s or something like that (I don't want to give a +1 for obvious reasons). Cultists, of course, don't get this as per the new Chaos rule (Mere Mortals, I think it's called).

Note that FW dreads can already get the DG trait right now and no one cares.

I would do it like this:
Inexorable Advance
If your army is Battle-forged, all units in DEATH GUARD Detachments except CHAOS CULTIST and POX WALKER units gain this ability. Such units do not suffer a penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons, or for Advancing and firing Assault weapons. In addition, a unit with this ability can fire twice with Rapid Fire weapons at a range of 18", instead of only being able to fire twice with them up to half the weapon’s maximum range.

Creeping Death
If your army is Battle-forged and if every unit from your army has the NURGLE keyword, all DEATH GUARD units (except CHAOS CULTISTS) gain the Disgustingly Resilient ability. DEATH GUARD INFANTRY units that already have this ability get +1 to their rolls when rolling for their Disgustingly Resilient ability instead.

Tallyman needs to have his CP regen actually be useful instead of herp derp Nurgle number is 7 so let's make it 7 silliness.

The 7 things is actually quite clever, as the chance of rolling a 7 with 2d6 is exactly the same as rolling a 5+. It's basically fluff at the cost of nothing.
He should work for all stratagems though, not just DG.

Some people have said he should be a Dark Apostle but I don't recall reading anywhere that he fills that role or has prayers,

His Festering Zealot ability is the same as "Dark Zealotry" that Dark Apostles had, just with 7" range. His other ability is "The Seven-fold Chant", which means that he is actually chanting a prayer to get back CP.
Last, but not least, his models has this speaker thingy all apostles have.
So, yeah, it's pretty clear that the Tallyman is just a nurglyfied apostle.

I don't even remember if there's any other characters because they are so forgettable but you get the idea, they all need serious rework because they serve no useful purpose.

The other two are the foul blightspawn (flamer SAG) and the biologues putrifier (grenade combo dude). The former has seen lots of competitive play, the later is mostly suffering from plague marines not being good and could use a point drop. Both server a pretty clear purpose.

A 7 on 2d6 is actually equal to a 6+, not a 5+.

But a 7+ on 2d6 is close to a 60% rate, which is far too good.

You are correct, of course.

6+ to refund a stratagem is pretty much in line with what most armies get outside of relics or warlord traits.

 JNAProductions wrote:
A 7 on 2d6 is actually equal to a 6+, not a 5+.

But a 7+ on 2d6 is close to a 60% rate, which is far too good.

Not when its only usable while using DG stratagems.

 Wibe wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
A 7 on 2d6 is actually equal to a 6+, not a 5+.

But a 7+ on 2d6 is close to a 60% rate, which is far too good.

Not when its only usable while using DG stratagems.

With the current DG Strats? Maybe.

But are you going to tell me that you'd want that ability improved, but leave the Strats untouched?

I think part of the problem is how the Cult Legions are treated as "All Berserker Marines, All Noise Marines, All Plague Marines, All Rubric Marines" that has gone on for several editions.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Wibe wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
A 7 on 2d6 is actually equal to a 6+, not a 5+.

But a 7+ on 2d6 is close to a 60% rate, which is far too good.

Not when its only usable while using DG stratagems.

With the current DG Strats? Maybe.

But are you going to tell me that you'd want that ability improved, but leave the Strats untouched?

I did not say that, but it would make him a little bit better, and still no where near to being competitive. DG would not even be close to competitive with unlimited DG-only stratagem points they way things stand at the moment.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think part of the problem is how the Cult Legions are treated as "All Berserker Marines, All Noise Marines, All Plague Marines, All Rubric Marines" that has gone on for several editions.

Except that is literally true.

GW themselves said many a year ago- All World Eaters are Berzerkers but not all Berzerkers are World Eaters. Similar logic applies to all other (apart from TS, who are their own unique thing). So, every DG marine is a PM, but not every PM belongs to the DG Legion.

Just remove the Lord of Contagion entry all together and make that model the Death Guard Chaos Lord.

He's pointless anyway.

No one will blink an eye, as long as he as access to all of the wargear the Chaos Lord and Lord of Contagion currently have access to. None of this no model, no rule bs.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think part of the problem is how the Cult Legions are treated as "All Berserker Marines, All Noise Marines, All Plague Marines, All Rubric Marines" that has gone on for several editions.

Except that is literally true.

GW themselves said many a year ago- All World Eaters are Berzerkers but not all Berzerkers are World Eaters. Similar logic applies to all other (apart from TS, who are their own unique thing). So, every DG marine is a PM, but not every PM belongs to the DG Legion.

Except, if that were the case, the armies wouldn't have been written as is. It's the same as the stereotype of all White Scars being Bikers. It's detrimental to the rules writing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think part of the problem is how the Cult Legions are treated as "All Berserker Marines, All Noise Marines, All Plague Marines, All Rubric Marines" that has gone on for several editions.

Except that is literally true.

GW themselves said many a year ago- All World Eaters are Berzerkers but not all Berzerkers are World Eaters. Similar logic applies to all other (apart from TS, who are their own unique thing). So, every DG marine is a PM, but not every PM belongs to the DG Legion.

Except, if that were the case, the armies wouldn't have been written as is. It's the same as the stereotype of all White Scars being Bikers. It's detrimental to the rules writing.

So the authors of 40k are wrong because you say so (like so many other things oh self-appointed king of 40k... ), right?

 Grimtuff wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think part of the problem is how the Cult Legions are treated as "All Berserker Marines, All Noise Marines, All Plague Marines, All Rubric Marines" that has gone on for several editions.

Except that is literally true.

GW themselves said many a year ago- All World Eaters are Berzerkers but not all Berzerkers are World Eaters. Similar logic applies to all other (apart from TS, who are their own unique thing). So, every DG marine is a PM, but not every PM belongs to the DG Legion.

Except, if that were the case, the armies wouldn't have been written as is. It's the same as the stereotype of all White Scars being Bikers. It's detrimental to the rules writing.

So the authors of 40k are wrong because you say so (like so many other things oh self-appointed king of 40k... ), right?

So why isn't every Emperors Children Havoc a Noise Marine and has never been? I'll wait.

This thread is about Death Guard, not EC. All of them are plague marines, as stated multiple times in novels and codices.

Getting back OT, what psychic powers would people like to see added (besides stock CSM spells)?

I'd like to change gift of contagion so you could pick which one of the effects happened, or split it into three spells so you can cast them around the field as needed.

A spell that makes a unit within 18" suffer -1 to their saves would be cool too (maybe their armor is corroded or something). Would help buff DG damage without directly touching any statlines. Not sure what the WC should be for it though.

 Jidmah wrote:
This thread is about Death Guard, not EC. All of them are plague marines, as stated multiple times in novels and codices.

If that was the case they'd all be for the most part those same Vets from the Heresy. Except they have to recruit new members. Who just happen to be only Plague Marines. Even though the rules never reflected anything you guys are saying nor has it ever been written well.
LOL okay and fluff tells us Space Marines use Multilasers all the time. Lemme know when that's an option.

I mean it only makes sense than when Death Guard recruit new marines they give them the gift of contagion and make them nurgle marines. The only reason many DG units dont' is because no models no rules, but if DG would to have bikers, havocs, etc... theres no reason those could not be just plague marines on bikes, with heavy weapons, plague marines on jump packs, etc... with the exception of no models no rules.

Just remove the Lord of Contagion entry all together and make that model the Death Guard Chaos Lord.

He's pointless anyway.

No one will blink an eye, as long as he as access to all of the wargear the Chaos Lord and Lord of Contagion currently have access to. None of this no model, no rule bs.

That would actually fix the Chaos Lord entry for DG as well. Just combine them in some way so we have a tough unit that gets DR, but isn't utterly useless outside of your opponent completely screwing up.

I think part of the problem is how the Cult Legions are treated as "All Berserker Marines, All Noise Marines, All Plague Marines, All Rubric Marines" that has gone on for several editions.

I don't understand where you're going here (unless you're setting up another "They should all be rolled back into CSM derailment). I don't see how that has any bearing on anything. It's like saying "Pert of the problem with Marines is that Marneus Calgar used to be half-Eldar". It doesn't really have any effect on the current competitive level ...

I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make, but I'd like to see their Tri-Lobe rule buffed so that it grants +1 to hit for each additional Hauler in the unit. That way, even though they would still be stuck with Multi-melta and Missile Launcher, a unit of three would hit on 2s, and a unit of two would still get some benefit.

I think they could also be given a cheap 'shoot again stratagem' without breaking the game.

i like these suggestions, but honestly, I think they'd be in a good place if they just had, say, a 20pt decrease? Is that too much? I find that their rules tend to do well for me, but the points are still just too high. They might be fine with the right point reduction.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
This thread is about Death Guard, not EC. All of them are plague marines, as stated multiple times in novels and codices.

If that was the case they'd all be for the most part those same Vets from the Heresy. Except they have to recruit new members. Who just happen to be only Plague Marines.

The death guard just recruit regular humans from their home planet and turn them into marines, just like loyalists do. Unlike most other, they have remained a fully functional legion.
A new recruit, be it renegade, human turned into marine or member of another legion can only become a member of the Death Guard if they have received the gifts of nurgle and will be turned into a plague marine upon swearing loyalty to Mortarion.
You know, because they would just die of disease or toxins otherwise.

Even though the rules never reflected anything you guys are saying nor has it ever been written well.

Have you ever heard of a "Mark of Nurgle"?

LOL okay and fluff tells us Space Marines use Multilasers all the time. Lemme know when that's an option.

Bad attempt at strawmanning from someone who tries to discuss DG fluff despite obviously not even having read the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
I mean it only makes sense than when Death Guard recruit new marines they give them the gift of contagion and make them nurgle marines. The only reason many DG units dont' is because no models no rules, but if DG would to have bikers, havocs, etc... theres no reason those could not be just plague marines on bikes, with heavy weapons, plague marines on jump packs, etc... with the exception of no models no rules.

I agree, but would like to point out that DG explicitly do not have havocs - even before the heresy Mortarion believed that infantry should not be carrying heavy weaponry, but that it should be mounted on more durable platforms.

I would rather increase the differentiation between DG and CSM. So that means no importing of the other daemon engines, as well as getting rid of Chaos Lords, Sorcerers, Possessed ... and maybe even Helbrutes, Predators and Land Raiders.

Then we can take the things those units do and give them to DG units that need help. So do the following:

Lord of Contagion: I really like the idea of giving him the -1T aura that Mortarion also has. I think this is really fluffy, powerful, and good fun. This is balanced by him being slow as buggery, with no jet pack, but I like the idea that he can do stuff even before he slugs his way there.

Typhus: Keep him as the Poxwalker buffer, but he should give them more buffs: +1S and +1T like usual, but also +1"M and +1A.

Plague Marines: They need an extra wound, let's face it, but I have further plans in store for them below.

Poxwalkers: I think that they just need to be taken in squads of up to 30, if not 40.

Elites are then when the fun can begin:
Noxious Blightbringer: Grant him prayers, like a Dark Apostle, but Nurgle style. He gets two Poxwalker buddies instead of Dark Apostles, but rather then grant him a bonus, he can 'consume' one each turn to super-charge a prayer. He keeps the rest of his bonuses as now (as Elites are not as useful as HQs), and he is 0-1 per Death Guard Detachment.

Plague Surgeon: Keep the re-roll of 1s for DR, like currently, but he grants Plague Marines re-rolls of *all* failed DR rolls. Maybe even for Terminators also. One per DG detachment.

Tallyman: Keeps his CP farming, and gets the now absent Chaos Lord's re-roll 1s to-hit aura, while keeping re-roll all to-hits in close combat.

Terminators: +1W regardless of kind.

Myphitic Blight Hauler: They should take the role of Helbrutes, and be costed as such. Perhaps a proper kit to give them more weapon options. Also, Daemon Engines should hit have WS/BS3+.

Chaos Spawn: I think they should be kept as they are, but basically be given some kind of Stratagem that makes them fulfil the role of DG possessed.

Plagueburst Crawler: BS3+.

A bunch of fun new stratagems would be useful too, but ultimately I like that GW is working to give forces unique identities. DG should, then, have less overlap with CSM, not more. I prefer 'unique parallel units' (e.g. Myphitic Blight Haulers = Helbrutes) than 'the same data sheet and DR'.

 TonyH122 wrote:
I would rather increase the differentiation between DG and CSM. So that means no importing of the other daemon engines, as well as getting rid of Chaos Lords, Sorcerers, Possessed ... and maybe even Helbrutes, Predators and Land Raiders.

Helbrutes, Predators and Land Raiders (as well as Vindicators) are part of DG's "still a functional legion"-shtick, as killing off vehicle crew with plagues/toxins and capturing them for their own is very much part of their identity.
Possessed also are firmly anchored in their lore, but I think they should be +1T and have DR to make them functionally different from melee plague marines.

Poxwalkers: I think that they just need to be taken in squads of up to 30, if not 40.

I'll ask you as well - why?

Noxious Blightbringer: Grant him prayers, like a Dark Apostle, but Nurgle style. He gets two Poxwalker buddies instead of Dark Apostles, but rather then grant him a bonus, he can 'consume' one each turn to super-charge a prayer. He keeps the rest of his bonuses as now (as Elites are not as useful as HQs), and he is 0-1 per Death Guard Detachment.
[...]
Tallyman: Keeps his CP farming, and gets the now absent Chaos Lord's re-roll 1s to-hit aura, while keeping re-roll all to-hits in close combat.

The tallyman is the "priest" character though. Maybe switch your ideas around?
I like the idea of consuming pox walkers, maybe he could just draw from regular units.

Plague Surgeon: Keep the re-roll of 1s for DR, like currently, but he grants Plague Marines re-rolls of *all* failed DR rolls. Maybe even for Terminators also. One per DG detachment.

+1 to DR for infantry is about the same chance as full re-rolls, except less time wasted. Re-rolling ones is pretty much worthless and could be dropped.

Chaos Spawn: I think they should be kept as they are, but basically be given some kind of Stratagem that makes them fulfil the role of DG possessed.

Why drop possessed and keep spawns? I'd rather do it the other way around.

A bunch of fun new stratagems would be useful too, but ultimately I like that GW is working to give forces unique identities. DG should, then, have less overlap with CSM, not more. I prefer 'unique parallel units' (e.g. Myphitic Blight Haulers = Helbrutes) than 'the same data sheet and DR'.

In general, I agree, but more unique datasheets require more unique models. I'd don't see GW releasing large amounts of DG any time soon. Splinter armies like ours tend to have little support unless you have someone in the design team having personal interest in them.

Tycho wrote:

Just remove the Lord of Contagion entry all together and make that model the Death Guard Chaos Lord.

He's pointless anyway.

No one will blink an eye, as long as he as access to all of the wargear the Chaos Lord and Lord of Contagion currently have access to. None of this no model, no rule bs.

That would actually fix the Chaos Lord entry for DG as well. Just combine them in some way so we have a tough unit that gets DR, but isn't utterly useless outside of your opponent completely screwing up.

I think part of the problem is how the Cult Legions are treated as "All Berserker Marines, All Noise Marines, All Plague Marines, All Rubric Marines" that has gone on for several editions.

I don't understand where you're going here (unless you're setting up another "They should all be rolled back into CSM derailment). I don't see how that has any bearing on anything. It's like saying "Pert of the problem with Marines is that Marneus Calgar used to be half-Eldar". It doesn't really have any effect on the current competitive level ...

I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make, but I'd like to see their Tri-Lobe rule buffed so that it grants +1 to hit for each additional Hauler in the unit. That way, even though they would still be stuck with Multi-melta and Missile Launcher, a unit of three would hit on 2s, and a unit of two would still get some benefit.

I think they could also be given a cheap 'shoot again stratagem' without breaking the game.

i like these suggestions, but honestly, I think they'd be in a good place if they just had, say, a 20pt decrease? Is that too much? I find that their rules tend to do well for me, but the points are still just too high. They might be fine with the right point reduction.

1Yes they should be rolled back into the CSM codex, which honestly would automatically help. It's worked fine before and now all the sudden it doesn't? Yeah no. However I'm pointing out the problem of how the Cult Legions are treated rules wise, fluff wise, AND player wise is always inconsistent. Treating the Cult Legions like that is the same as treating every Night Lord as a Raptor and White Scar as a Biker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
This thread is about Death Guard, not EC. All of them are plague marines, as stated multiple times in novels and codices.

If that was the case they'd all be for the most part those same Vets from the Heresy. Except they have to recruit new members. Who just happen to be only Plague Marines.

The death guard just recruit regular humans from their home planet and turn them into marines, just like loyalists do. Unlike most other, they have remained a fully functional legion.
A new recruit, be it renegade, human turned into marine or member of another legion can only become a member of the Death Guard if they have received the gifts of nurgle and will be turned into a plague marine upon swearing loyalty to Mortarion.
You know, because they would just die of disease or toxins otherwise.

Even though the rules never reflected anything you guys are saying nor has it ever been written well.

Have you ever heard of a "Mark of Nurgle"?

LOL okay and fluff tells us Space Marines use Multilasers all the time. Lemme know when that's an option.

Bad attempt at strawmanning from someone who tries to discuss DG fluff despite obviously not even having read the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
I mean it only makes sense than when Death Guard recruit new marines they give them the gift of contagion and make them nurgle marines. The only reason many DG units dont' is because no models no rules, but if DG would to have bikers, havocs, etc... theres no reason those could not be just plague marines on bikes, with heavy weapons, plague marines on jump packs, etc... with the exception of no models no rules.

I agree, but would like to point out that DG explicitly do not have havocs - even before the heresy Mortarion believed that infantry should not be carrying heavy weaponry, but that it should be mounted on more durable platforms.

1. Saying they've been a functioning Legion is inaccurate. None of the Legions are really functioning outside Black Legion. Otherwise they all have their internal fighting with ulterior and hidden motives. Death Guard is no different outside maybe extremely specific new fluff, which is only that: new.
2. Mark of Nurgle still exists. You just don't get the +1T, which is both good and bad, and part of the problem was showing dedication and blessed by Nurgle vs completely in bed with Nurgle. Where does the +1T belong? The FNP? Being pseudo Relentless?
3. And if a new codex said Primaris are the best EVAR we wouldn't have people arguing about the new fluff. Oh wait. Also my point stands and where is the Multilasers for my Marines?
4. Except that is not the case. Just because Mortarion liked something doesn't mean in reality that's what happened. You wanna talk fluff, what about the Heresy armies in general? Those Havocs sure worked back then and unless you want to somehow come to the conclusion that he got rid of them or they all died, then the fact remains: Death Guard lost a LOT more than they gained and the codex was a bad attempt by GW.

Thanks for confirming my assumption.

You have clearly not read the DG fluff. Almost every word you have written is incorrect. There is no point in explaining colors to a blind man.

 Jidmah wrote:
Thanks for confirming my assumption.

You have clearly not read the DG fluff. Almost every word you have written is incorrect. There is no point in explaining colors to a blind man.

You can't bother to refute other than "read stuff" which means you don't really have specific sources. Either accept that the fluff has never matched the rules and never will, and that consolidation helps fix several issues. Either that or keep pretending this current Death Guard codex somehow fits the fluff more (which it doesn't)..

I quite clearly cited my source.

 Jidmah wrote:
I quite clearly cited my source.

Your source is ONE codex and my source is multiple codices and 30k. Your move, bud.

Death Guard are all plague marines hit by the very unique Destroyer Hive virus.

Other plague marines might exist, but all Death Guard have been infected by the Destroyer Hive specifically, courtesy of our good buddy Typhus.

1Yes they should be rolled back into the CSM codex, which honestly would automatically help. It's worked fine before and now all the sudden it doesn't? Yeah no.

No it hasn't "worked fine" before. Death Guard have never actually had a real army before (in 40k). Ironically, they had just Plague Marines. The very problem you're arguing against. I'm also unconvinced it would help. It would A. Guarantee they don't get anymore updates, and B. what? Give them access to a book that, in and of itself isn't that great either? Nope. Don't want it, don't need it. Two negatives don't really make a positive here. Just give us the stuff we should have had in the first place and let the CSM book be the CSM book.

We should have access to Dark Hereticus - that would help quite a bit, and it would be cool if we could apply some of our powers/abilities to units with the Mark of Nurgle, for better synergy, but rolling them back in? Why? So I can go back to playing a very unfluffy AND very very average to below average imitation of DG? One that will never really be truly updated as long as it stays in that book? I'm good thanks. Especially since they removed the ability of cult units to be troops. Nah. I think we're good on our own.

1. Saying they've been a functioning Legion is inaccurate. None of the Legions are really functioning outside Black Legion. Otherwise they all have their internal fighting with ulterior and hidden motives. Death Guard is no different outside maybe extremely specific new fluff, which is only that: new.

There are several "functioning legions", but all of them (including Black Legion) have in-fighting. I never understand where this "BUTBUTBUT THEY"RE CHAOS! THERE ARE NO FUNCTIONING LEGIONS!" stuff comes from? There's the Tsons codex that actually brings Ahriman and Magnus back together, There's the Word Bearer's Omnibus that clearly states, that even though Kor Pharon and Erebus are playing games with each other, that they're still a legion, there's a boat-load of Iron Warriors stuff that indicates that while there are some little splinter groups, THEY still have an over-all Legion, there's the DG codex indicating they still have a functioning Legion, there's just a lot of big-picture stuff indicating that the phrase "there are no functioning legions" is pretty inaccurate.

Also my point stands and where is the Multilasers for my Marines?

As usual lately, I'm not actually sure you have a point. Like above, most of the big picture stuff stays pretty constant, but CS Goto's stuff was diss-avowed years ago. There's a ton of silly things like this in the fluff. There's his back-flipping terminators, there's James Swallow's abomination of a Blood Angel's Omnibus where half the legion basically revolts because "chaos magic" (which has also kind of been diss-owned by GW at this point - I honestly don't know how they ok'd that storyline in the first place but I digress), and a boat load of other stuff that changes occasionally. So it's not a great example to cherry pick something like the multi-laser example. Maybe pick something that hasn't changed? As for the thread topic -DG have stayed pretty on-point over the years. Their fluff has been expanded upon, but there's never been (as far as I know), a change that would retcon anything. So we know that all Death Guard cult marines, are just that - Death Guard cult marines. No such thing as a non-Plague Marine in the Death Guard.


Anywho - back OT-

Suggestions for the heavy support slot? As someone else pointed out, Havocs aren't really fluffy for DG - this was discussed in a little detail earlier in the thread, but would we want access to something like Oblits? I can't think of a fluff reason why not, but I still think they need a points decrease. Give the whole "Mortarion doesn't believe in troops carrying the big-guns thing", I'd kind of like to see some kind of customizable gun platform that could be a stand-in as our equivalent of Havocs. Probably a new Demon Engine, but one that's geared completely towards ranged combat. Thoughts?

That platform is dreadnoughts, in a legion that always favoured dreadnoughts. They just need DR and stratagem support to be pretty good at it. I would take some fluffy, dreddy love over new Adjective NounVerber demons any day.

Tycho wrote:

1Yes they should be rolled back into the CSM codex, which honestly would automatically help. It's worked fine before and now all the sudden it doesn't? Yeah no.

No it hasn't "worked fine" before. Death Guard have never actually had a real army before (in 40k). Ironically, they had just Plague Marines. The very problem you're arguing against. I'm also unconvinced it would help. It would A. Guarantee they don't get anymore updates, and B. what? Give them access to a book that, in and of itself isn't that great either? Nope. Don't want it, don't need it. Two negatives don't really make a positive here. Just give us the stuff we should have had in the first place and let the CSM book be the CSM book.

We should have access to Dark Hereticus - that would help quite a bit, and it would be cool if we could apply some of our powers/abilities to units with the Mark of Nurgle, for better synergy, but rolling them back in? Why? So I can go back to playing a very unfluffy AND very very average to below average imitation of DG? One that will never really be truly updated as long as it stays in that book? I'm good thanks. Especially since they removed the ability of cult units to be troops. Nah. I think we're good on our own.

1. Saying they've been a functioning Legion is inaccurate. None of the Legions are really functioning outside Black Legion. Otherwise they all have their internal fighting with ulterior and hidden motives. Death Guard is no different outside maybe extremely specific new fluff, which is only that: new.

There are several "functioning legions", but all of them (including Black Legion) have in-fighting. I never understand where this "BUTBUTBUT THEY"RE CHAOS! THERE ARE NO FUNCTIONING LEGIONS!" stuff comes from? There's the Tsons codex that actually brings Ahriman and Magnus back together, There's the Word Bearer's Omnibus that clearly states, that even though Kor Pharon and Erebus are playing games with each other, that they're still a legion, there's a boat-load of Iron Warriors stuff that indicates that while there are some little splinter groups, THEY still have an over-all Legion, there's the DG codex indicating they still have a functioning Legion, there's just a lot of big-picture stuff indicating that the phrase "there are no functioning legions" is pretty inaccurate.

Also my point stands and where is the Multilasers for my Marines?

As usual lately, I'm not actually sure you have a point. Like above, most of the big picture stuff stays pretty constant, but CS Goto's stuff was diss-avowed years ago. There's a ton of silly things like this in the fluff. There's his back-flipping terminators, there's James Swallow's abomination of a Blood Angel's Omnibus where half the legion basically revolts because "chaos magic" (which has also kind of been diss-owned by GW at this point - I honestly don't know how they ok'd that storyline in the first place but I digress), and a boat load of other stuff that changes occasionally. So it's not a great example to cherry pick something like the multi-laser example. Maybe pick something that hasn't changed? As for the thread topic -DG have stayed pretty on-point over the years. Their fluff has been expanded upon, but there's never been (as far as I know), a change that would retcon anything. So we know that all Death Guard cult marines, are just that - Death Guard cult marines. No such thing as a non-Plague Marine in the Death Guard.


Anywho - back OT-

Suggestions for the heavy support slot? As someone else pointed out, Havocs aren't really fluffy for DG - this was discussed in a little detail earlier in the thread, but would we want access to something like Oblits? I can't think of a fluff reason why not, but I still think they need a points decrease. Give the whole "Mortarion doesn't believe in troops carrying the big-guns thing", I'd kind of like to see some kind of customizable gun platform that could be a stand-in as our equivalent of Havocs. Probably a new Demon Engine, but one that's geared completely towards ranged combat. Thoughts?

1. Death Guard were a real army. Just because you didn't have pointless gakky support characters until now doesn't mean they weren't. Spoiler Alert: not everything needs a SUPER SPECIAL RULE to denote being part of an army. It's that obsession that turned White Scars into all Bikers or Blood Angels being on Jump Packs ALL THE TIME and such.
2. The codex is fluffy or well written now compared to the representation before? LOL no it isn't and don't pretend it is. The codex was barely functional when released at the beginning of the edition!
3. Also you don't get access to Dark Herecticus. Either you're a CSM army or you aren't. This is the type of "have your cake and eat it too" attitude that creates the bloat of rules we got now.
4. Except Cult Marines are troops for their respective Legions. What're you whining about?
5. The point is they really aren't unified really as Legions until extremely specific points for bad fluff writing.
6. Oh so we can pick and choose which fluff is disowned huh? Yeah nice try. It was written Space Marines use Multilasers so too bad, where's my tabletop representation of that? If you're that hellbent on following fluff = tabletop the option should be there period. It's completely either-or.
7. Havocs are used. Mortation not liking something does not equal it not happening. It works fine in 30k, it had a variant in 3rd (which was just extra Special Weapons but it still existed), it worked for 4th-7th, and NOW all the sudden it's not okay huh?

To sum up slayer's irrational rant: Codices from a niche game made by FW are more relevant to how death guard should work than the actual death guard codex. There is literally no way to argue that, so let's just not.

Can we now please ignore him and get back to topic?

To all that say that death guard should be rerolled in the CSM codex, let me ask you this: Do you really think there is ANY unit in there that woudnt be better off with another legion/god?

We are a crappy codex and you think that returning in a meh codex would help us. It wont. We will be even more unused because the other factions in it would be able to do what we do but better.

strigops wrote:
To all that say that death guard should be rerolled in the CSM codex, let me ask you this: Do you really think there is ANY unit in there that woudnt be better off with another legion/god?

We are a crappy codex and you think that returning in a meh codex would help us. It wont. We will be even more unused because the other factions in it would be able to do what we do but better.

I disagree on the rerolling thing, however , i do that because i 'd do it differently, which would allow for a broader baseline.
I'd also do the same for TS. Btw.

However from a unit standpoint the "potential"(depends vastly how it is done) access to some of the shinyies of CSM might do something,however the truth is, even if rolled back, you'd not play DG but a soup with DG content.
The only decent thing then would be that you'd only have to buy 1 book.

But that's a small consolation for units which generally are less effective and beeing in a codex that get's innefective as soon as CP's run dry.
So yes, regardless if rolled into 1 book or left seperately atm there'd be no real improvement either way.

Wouldn't combining DG into CSM just be the same essentially as we have now? I already can have access to everything in the CSM book. I just need to take a CSM detachment. I'm forever casting dark hereticus powers on my DG (e.g. warp timing Morty) and nonchalantly using their strategems (e.g. chaos familiar).

 lare2 wrote:
Wouldn't combining DG into CSM just be the same essentially as we have now? I already can have access to everything in the CSM book. I just need to take a CSM detachment. I'm forever casting dark hereticus powers on my DG (e.g. warp timing Morty) and nonchalantly using their strategems (e.g. chaos familiar).

It's more that you could run DG inherent to the CSM dex via addendum of 5+++ and +1 T aswell as inexorable advance as a trait and limit/grant access to specific units which Atm are not there for DG for reasons unkown to players.

It wouldn't change much, you'd just had to buy less books

 lare2 wrote:
Wouldn't combining DG into CSM just be the same essentially as we have now? I already can have access to everything in the CSM book. I just need to take a CSM detachment. I'm forever casting dark hereticus powers on my DG (e.g. warp timing Morty) and nonchalantly using their strategems (e.g. chaos familiar).

I made a list somewhere, if you are interested, I can repost it.
If you just take the current DG rules and put them back into codex CSM as equals to World Eaters and Emperor's Children in the same way they rolled Black Templars back into the marines codex, the only thing lost would be our Psychic Discipline, which is inferior in every way to the hereticus discipline. In return, we would get a ton of stratagems, dozens of units, a better psychic discipline in addition to a second one that can benefit our daemon engines.

While having a properly maintained dedicated codex is definitely preferable to getting rolled back in, at this point in time (before our PA is released), being part of the CSM codex instead of having our own would be all upside. Which is basically a sign that GW screwed up big time.

I guess I wouldn't mind either way. On the one hand I could use my raptors, bikes, havocs, possessed and rapiers in a DG detachment again without losing boni, on the other hand the 30 cultists + sorcerer and lord from a purge bataillon to use these units aren't that bad.
I guess it could suck for the other legions, though, if a third of the codex is filled with units only 1 of the 15 factions in the book can use...

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I guess I wouldn't mind either way. On the one hand I could use my raptors, bikes, havocs, possessed and rapiers in a DG detachment again without losing boni, on the other hand the 30 cultists + sorcerer and lord from a purge bataillon to use these units aren't that bad.
I guess it could suck for the other legions, though, if a third of the codex is filled with units only 1 of the 15 factions in the book can use...

Tbh if they get rolled in I'd expect that to stop being the case, giving daemon engines and some of the less death guard-y characters back over to undivided with the caveat they must be nurgle seems reasonable.

While having a properly maintained dedicated codex is definitely preferable to getting rolled back in, at this point in time (before our PA is released), being part of the CSM codex instead of having our own would be all upside. Which is basically a sign that GW screwed up big time.

The problem with that is, it's a permanent fix to a very temporary problem. Also, most of that could be solved (even in a PA update) by simply saying, DG now have access to Dark Hereticus, and XYZ powers and strats are now re-worded to work on Keywords:"Death Guard, Heretic Astartes, Nurgle" etc., so fix some of the broken synergies and just update their strats.

A big part of the issue is that we have a codex that was high-mid-tier when released, but has not aged as well. An actual codex update would correct that quickly. Roll them back in and kiss any chance of that goodby. You probably will also not get a lot of the synergies you want when they do that. We aren't suffering from anything that even a minor codex update couldn't fix. I think the issue is that, while it used to be common for books to not get updated for entire editions even, a book that's 3 years old gets long in the tooth faster than it use to.

Meh, what goes around comes around. Our Codex was solid when it was released. We were ahead of the curve and I remember winning pretty consistently in those heady days. We were top dogs.

Now we're behind the times and the meta has left us lurking. This is nothing a new book wouldn't fix. We don't need to be rolled back into CSMs to fix our problems.

Exact same thing happens time and again to all armies. It's just our turn at the minute to be bottom of the pecking order. We'll be back on top form without the drastic need to merge with CSM again.

TO be fair though most of what was winning was your typical horsegak spam lists that barely even resembled Death Guard.

Dudeface wrote:
While having a properly maintained dedicated codex is definitely preferable to getting rolled back in, at this point in time (before our PA is released), being part of the CSM codex with 2 campaign books worth of content instead of having our own would be all upside. Which is basically a sign that GW screwed up both books big time.

As pointed out the last time you spread this misinformation, even without the campaign books being part of the CSM strictly better than not being part of it. The two books just add to the pile of stuff we gain, considering how Vigilus just ignored that DG were a major faction of the conflict and gave them nothing.

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
While having a properly maintained dedicated codex is definitely preferable to getting rolled back in, at this point in time (before our PA is released), being part of the CSM codex with 2 campaign books worth of content instead of having our own would be all upside. Which is basically a sign that GW screwed up both books big time.

As pointed out the last time you spread this misinformation, even without the campaign books being part of the CSM strictly better than not being part of it. The two books just add to the pile of stuff we gain, considering how Vigilus just ignored that DG were a major faction of the conflict and gave them nothing.

I wrote a lengthy response but decided against it. Its academic and they're a stand alone force and not just marginally different spiky marines any more which is good. If you want to complain they should be standard chaos marines + extras that's your opinion.

That lengthy response apparently failed to do as much as count stratagems, relics and warlord traits, which are more numerous for WE or EC even before Vigilus and PA.

You were as wrong then as you are now.

 Jidmah wrote:
That lengthy response apparently failed to do as much as count stratagems, relics and warlord traits, which are more numerous for WE or EC even before Vigilus and PA.

You were as wrong then as you are now.

There is 1 world eaters stratagem in the chaos marines codex, likewise there is 1 emperors children stratagem. If you're insinuating the generic heretic astartes stratagems somehow count as legion specific that's on another planet.

A bit along the same line: I think DG doesn't lose very much from simply combining it with a CSM detachment of choice, and not all CSM stratagems or buffs are keyed to <Legion>
And frankly, a DG player that isn't at least willing to read into what Chaos Daemons have to offer to DG needs not complain about a lack of competitiveness. Staying away from Chaos soup is a pure fluff decision.
You can't make the argument, that DG has nothing that is unique to them, or no options at all.that aren't stronger than what other factions have.
Deathguard Psykers may have less choice in their starting picks from the Hereticus Discipline, but the option to spend 1 CP to chose from one of six Contagion powers mid-game makes them incredibly capable to react to changing situations, for example.

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
That lengthy response apparently failed to do as much as count stratagems, relics and warlord traits, which are more numerous for WE or EC even before Vigilus and PA.

You were as wrong then as you are now.

There is 1 world eaters stratagem in the chaos marines codex, likewise there is 1 emperors children stratagem. If you're insinuating the generic heretic astartes stratagems somehow count as legion specific that's on another planet.

And you somehow think that 1 Death Guard stratagem plus everything in Codex:CSM is somehow worse or even less than what DG have now?

Don't bother answering, I don't care for your answer. Just like last time, you'll just keep moving goalposts to create the illusion of DG gaining access to all that is part of Codex:CSM somehow is a disadvantage for them. The hard numbers prove you wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AuntHerbert wrote:
Deathguard Psykers may have less choice in their starting picks from the Hereticus Discipline, but the option to spend 1 CP to chose from one of six Contagion powers mid-game makes them incredibly capable to react to changing situations, for example.

CSM have the very same stratagem under a different name though.

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
That lengthy response apparently failed to do as much as count stratagems, relics and warlord traits, which are more numerous for WE or EC even before Vigilus and PA.

You were as wrong then as you are now.

There is 1 world eaters stratagem in the chaos marines codex, likewise there is 1 emperors children stratagem. If you're insinuating the generic heretic astartes stratagems somehow count as legion specific that's on another planet.

And you somehow think that 1 Death Guard stratagem plus everything in Codex:CSM is somehow worse or even less than what DG have now?

Don't bother answering, I don't care for your answer. Just like last time, you'll just keep moving goalposts to create the illusion of DG gaining access to all that is part of Codex:CSM somehow is a disadvantage for them. The hard numbers prove you wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AuntHerbert wrote:
Deathguard Psykers may have less choice in their starting picks from the Hereticus Discipline, but the option to spend 1 CP to chose from one of six Contagion powers mid-game makes them incredibly capable to react to changing situations, for example.

CSM have the very same stratagem under a different name though.

You asked an objective question, I gave an objective answer. Your response to being wrong is to have a stroppy fit about it and decide I'm beneath your interest. I'm fine with that BTW.

Ofc it'd be a massive buff for them but then I wouldn't selfishly expect them to keep a full codex worth of unique entries and then get access to another full codex worth of entries.

Stop whining that someone else got some toys and you didn't. Ally in some chaos marines and use their stuff if it bothers you so much.

Protip, World eaters have 14 strats open to them including one for changing their mark of chaos.

*looks back in on this thread*

So we've had pages of arguments about lore stuff, and about how many books things should be spread across, and yet still hardly any discussion of the core problem: If you put a bunch of plague marines, some terminators, and some vehicles on the board, your list will be crap.

That's the primary problem with DG (and all Chaos marines in general, and was previously a problem for loyalists until they got their new books.)

The goal of balance for any specific faction shouldn't be to get them to have competitive lists of any sort, it should be to get their units to be competitive in general. 8th has had too many problems of really whacky, unfluffy lists being able to win tournaments (such as dual primarch + brimstones) while 80% of a faction's units are never worth putting on the field.

Ideally, you should be able to put down basically any units in the book and have a decent list (as long as you satisfy covering basic roles.) But that's not how it works at all these days.

In other words, everyone should be demanding buffs for Plague Marines and similar units.

If you put a bunch of plague marines, some terminators, and some vehicles on the board, your list will be crap.

I totally agree with you, but this has always been a problem. Skew armies have mostly always been the tournament winners.

With 40K I've come to the conclusion, if your list even remotely resembles an actual army that could exist in the books it will be terrible in game.

Possibly one of the main reasons I'm a really bad player. My armies always revolve around lots of marines and terminators.

Plague Marines, Terminators, Dreadnoughts. These should all be your go to units.

Also, why do Plague Crawlers absolutely suck as artillery tanks? Another example of GW writing rules completely ass backwards. They need BS3 and possibly double shots if they don't move, at least with the mortar.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

If you put a bunch of plague marines, some terminators, and some vehicles on the board, your list will be crap.

I totally agree with you, but this has always been a problem. Skew armies have mostly always been the tournament winners.

With 40K I've come to the conclusion, if your list even remotely resembles an actual army that could exist in the books it will be terrible in game.

Possibly one of the main reasons I'm a really bad player. My armies always revolve around lots of marines and terminators.

Plague Marines, Terminators, Dreadnoughts. These should all be your go to units.

Also, why do Plague Crawlers absolutely suck as artillery tanks? Another example of GW writing rules completely ass backwards. They need BS3 and possibly double shots if they don't move, at least with the mortar.

I'd change the mortar to 2d3 shots since 1d6 is just so swingy, maybe adding more shots if the unit is large or make it BS3 if the unit size is 10 or larger (more targets means it should be generally easier to hit something right?).

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

If you put a bunch of plague marines, some terminators, and some vehicles on the board, your list will be crap.

I totally agree with you, but this has always been a problem. Skew armies have mostly always been the tournament winners.

With 40K I've come to the conclusion, if your list even remotely resembles an actual army that could exist in the books it will be terrible in game.

Possibly one of the main reasons I'm a really bad player. My armies always revolve around lots of marines and terminators.

Plague Marines, Terminators, Dreadnoughts. These should all be your go to units.

Also, why do Plague Crawlers absolutely suck as artillery tanks? Another example of GW writing rules completely ass backwards. They need BS3 and possibly double shots if they don't move, at least with the mortar.

Yeah. It was less of a problem in earlier editions at least (although perhaps more due to Force Org restrictions then.)

A typical fluff marine army is like a couple HQs, 3 troops, 1 elite, 1 fast, and 1 heavy. Scatter in some transports. So for example:
Captain
Chaplain/Librarian
3x Tacs in Rhinos
Dreadnought
Assault Marines
Devastators
Maybe an attack bike or landspeeder.

The goal of the game balance should be to let basic lists like this (or chaos equivalents) be functional and worth using. But instead armies are loyal32+castellan+custodes captains (for a lot of 8th) or ahriman+1ksons DPs+brimstone spam or other such nonsense. At least typhus+poxwalkers being a powerful list was fluffy!

Obviously this problem I'm talking about is an issue with approach to balance overall. But my point is that the issues with Death Guard are downstream of the wider problems with the approach to balance. Its not just that there's issues with some units or strats or something.

On the subject of the Plague Crawler, remember how part of the reason that they created the rule of 3 was that someone was winning tournaments with a list of 2x DPs and 10x Plague Burst Crawlers? Nobody could kill it! That's the problem with giving it more offensive power. It actually has a really nice ratio of offense vs defense at the moment. You get a lot of defensive power for its price. The problem is that nobody cares about that, because the meta is so far skewed towards offense alpha strike spam. In the bigger picture, I'm not sure it would need more offensive power if the rest of the army was working better (like if plague marines were good and could kill stuff.) Although I totally agree that it should be 2d3 shots or 1d6 minimum 2 or something, but that's really an issue with ALL random shot weapons in the game being obnoxious.

I remember in 5th ed I often took a dakka predator to use as mobile cover, lane blocking, etc. It went well with the rhinos I had on the board too. The Crawler would be amazing in this sort of role, especially with its plague flamers. Except that 8th edition eliminated that entire tactical part of the game due to the LOS and cover changes.

In 5th Ed, the Crawler would have been an amazing unit.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
If you put a bunch of plague marines, some terminators, and some vehicles on the board, your list will be crap.

Although I totally agree that it should be 2d3 shots or 1d6 minimum 2 or something, but that's really an issue with ALL random shot weapons in the game being obnoxious.

I remember in 5th ed I often took a dakka predator to use as mobile cover, lane blocking, etc. It went well with the rhinos I had on the board too. The Crawler would be amazing in this sort of role, especially with its plague flamers. Except that 8th edition eliminated that entire tactical part of the game due to the LOS and cover changes.

In 5th Ed, the Crawler would have been an amazing unit.

Giving it a rule that wounds from the mortar spill over to other models if it overkills a model wouldn't hurt either, something similar to the flail of corruption's rule which could help clear chaff for the units advancing up the board.

 DrGiggles wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
If you put a bunch of plague marines, some terminators, and some vehicles on the board, your list will be crap.

Although I totally agree that it should be 2d3 shots or 1d6 minimum 2 or something, but that's really an issue with ALL random shot weapons in the game being obnoxious.

I remember in 5th ed I often took a dakka predator to use as mobile cover, lane blocking, etc. It went well with the rhinos I had on the board too. The Crawler would be amazing in this sort of role, especially with its plague flamers. Except that 8th edition eliminated that entire tactical part of the game due to the LOS and cover changes.

In 5th Ed, the Crawler would have been an amazing unit.

Giving it a rule that wounds from the mortar spill over to other models if it overkills a model wouldn't hurt either, something similar to the flail of corruption's rule which could help clear chaff for the units advancing up the board.

Having blast templates exist and it be a large blast template would be great too. Or having better rules for weapons that used to be large blasts!

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Having blast templates exist and it be a large blast template would be great too. Or having better rules for weapons that used to be large blasts!

Yeah, having a "blast" USR for weapons that used to be templates would be helpful for a lot of armies. I'm honestly surprised there aren't more weapons with rules similar to the flail's spillover rule.

edit: I started in 8th so I haven't used templates, but I'd be okay trying some version of them.

I love the wound spill over idea. Very Nurgle.

3d3 shots maybe?

 DrGiggles wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Having blast templates exist and it be a large blast template would be great too. Or having better rules for weapons that used to be large blasts!

Yeah, having a "blast" USR for weapons that used to be templates would be helpful for a lot of armies. I'm honestly surprised there aren't more weapons with rules similar to the flail's spillover rule.

edit: I started in 8th so I haven't used templates, but I'd be okay trying some version of them.

I don't really miss the blast templates, they were quite immersive, but also frustrating as you usually didn't hit more than 3-4 models, just like with a D6 when you think about it. It was pretty fiddly and caused discussions, though.
What I'd like to see as a general change to blast weapons is either make them hit automatically or switch the hit roll and number of shots around. Roll to hit, and if you do, roll a die for the number of hits. Would also save some time.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 DrGiggles wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Having blast templates exist and it be a large blast template would be great too. Or having better rules for weapons that used to be large blasts!

Yeah, having a "blast" USR for weapons that used to be templates would be helpful for a lot of armies. I'm honestly surprised there aren't more weapons with rules similar to the flail's spillover rule.

edit: I started in 8th so I haven't used templates, but I'd be okay trying some version of them.

I don't really miss the blast templates, they were quite immersive, but also frustrating as you usually didn't hit more than 3-4 models, just like with a D6 when you think about it. It was pretty fiddly and caused discussions, though.
What I'd like to see as a general change to blast weapons is either make them hit automatically or switch the hit roll and number of shots around. Roll to hit, and if you do, roll a die for the number of hits. Would also save some time.

Blast templates certainly caused problems, but they also captured an important mechanic that can't be easily replicated. First, they could hit multiple units. Second, the amount of damage they caused often related to the size of the squad you were targeting, and also to its density. So they were often more effective vs horde weapons. Third, the scatter mechanic meant that they often didn't land the most optimal hit, but also rarely missed completely (unless you were firing blind). And vehicles could be full or partial hits as well.

Against bunched up hordes, you could get 10+ hits from a large template even with some scatter. Against spread out units, you often average only a couple hits after factoring in scatter. Having a random number of shots does reflect the scattering, but it doesn't properly count for likely unit density. The result is that the weapons are proportionally more effective vs small elite units, and less effective vs hordes than they used to be (no surprise 8th has been an edition of horde units rolling everything due to almost all previous anti-horde weapons no longer working well.)

So to get it working like it used to, you'd need a rule that makes it get more shots against certain sized units, and a rule to have it behave differently vs vehicles (less shots, but more strength or dmg maybe?) and a rule for splashing other nearby units based on measuring or something, and perhaps even a rule for bunched up units. And at that point, it would have been way easier to just stick to the old template system! Yes it had problems, but you got a lot out of it.

There used to be tactical differences between blast weapons and normal weapons. Now the difference is that one is unreliable and annoying.

Maybe all former template weapons should have the same rule as the fellblade accelerator cannon's he shells. You can reroll the number of shots for any unit of five or more models.

Density really only mattered against deep striking units as these usually couldn't move when they came in and had to be placed in base contact.
I agree that some aspects changed, blast weapons were good for Orks because their bs didn't matter that much with them, other factions usually had high rof weapons just like now which were overall better.
Hordes were killed by anything before, that's why all of them where weak. I've had many weapons and rules in my Codex where I thought, well, this would be nice to try out against some Orks, but it won't even kill two firewarriors so why bother? And every Bolter can kill an Ork, too. Even soulblaze could kill an Ork. So basically blasts weren't high on the list of things to keep hordes in check, they were merely icing on the cake.

Death Guard are said to be a Legion that operates very similar to how they did pre Heresy.

Give them Combat Doctrines and a unique Super Doctrine.

 Ishagu wrote:
Death Guard are said to be a Legion that operates very similar to how they did pre Heresy.

Give them Combat Doctrines and a unique Super Doctrine.

But combat doctrines are a Codex thing, not a Legion thing. For wolves to have doctrines is allready a little far fetech.

After reading the thread, I had a couple of ideas rattling around in my head, so I created an account just to get them off my chest:

I think GW intend a clear identify for DG - slow, durable and mainly do their damage at short range/melee. So I'm going to re-work the codex with this still in mind. I would also focus on our two main gimmicks; DR and plague weapons. I'm also not going to change any fundamental 'rules' GW has, i.e. Primaris has 2W, but regular marines do not and demonic engines cannot have a better BS than 4+. I would also add the greater possessed and Master of Possession units tot he codex.

Legion trait - Keep it as it is, but extend the double shot range to 24", have it include DR and make it apply to all units in the codex. It also goes without saying that all marine units should be T5.

Chaos Lord - add some more plague weapon options like bubonic axe, mace of contagion, but not the flail that would be too much. otherwise fine.

Terminator Lord - lose him, he's not needed.

Demon Prince - similar to the Lord, he needs more plague weapon options or give his existing weapons the plague weapon rules. I'd also increase his invun save to 4+ because I think its weird the Lord has a better one than him.

Lord of Contagion - add the reroll 1 aura and change his useless special to instead buff plague weapons within 7". At the start of the turn you can chose a +1 to S, AP or damage.

Sorcerer/Terminator Sorcerer - Give them access to the CSM powers.

Plaguecaster - Buff them so know three powers and have 2 denies. (Note - to stop them being too similar to the now nurgleified sorcerers)

Cultists - fine the way they are

Poxwalkers - also fine, just need to have a max unit size of 40 so they actually survive long enough to regenerate.

Plague marines - ok hear me out, I think they're fine. Instead I would buff them indirectly with stratagems, better support characters etc.

Blightbringer - Increase the -1Ld aura to 14" and add a +1 to charge rolls for his normal aura.

Biologus Putrifiers/Foul Blightspawn - fine the way they are, maybe increase the size of their auras?

Tallyman - Change him to be our version of the dark apostle. Prayers would focus of defensive buffs like +1 T, +1 to save etc. Include his old melee reroll as a prayer.

Plague surgeon - Instead make his aura a +1 to DR for infantry units.

Blightlords - fine the way they are.

Deathshroud - Add a new rule, before the start of the game you select one DG HQ as the ward for all your Deathshroud units. In the charge phase, if the ward is within 1" of an enemy unit that is also within 12" of the deathshroud, you do not need to roll for their charge, it is automatically a 12. The deathshroud can only charge one enemy unit when using this special rule.

Possessed marines - make their claws a plague weapon with an extra damage on 6s to wound. Aim is to make them the best melee infantry unit, while plague marines are more flexible.

Helbrute - Needs a +1 to T and some more plague weapon options.

Bloat drone - fine the way it is

Blight hauler - needs to be able to take heavy blight launcher and entropy cannons.

Plagueburst Crawlers - change the mortar to be 2D3 shots and can fire twice if it doesn't move. Otherwise, having the legion trait should help.

Rhino/Pred/Land Raider - Having the legion trait will do.

Typhus - same as Lord of Contagion

Mortarion - dunno, I don't use him.


Stratagems Ideas:

Plague bolts - Give bolters weapons in a unit the plague weapon special rule
Nurgles chosen - Use before the battle begins, one unit of plague marines has 2W
Blight shell - blight launcher causes a -1 T
Immoveable - a plague marine unit cannot move, but can reroll all failed DR and morale
Cursed blade - use when an enemy loses a wound to a plague knife - they take D3 mortal wounds
Acid boils - passed DR rolls cause morale wounds to enemy units within 1"
Big splash - plague spewers/belcher/spitter does 2D6 shots
Empower plagues - increase damage of plague weapons by 1


Phew - ok, I think I'm done. I'll let someone else come up with warlord and relic ideas.

Nice ideas. In respect of the Blight Hauler, any buff would probably have to be based on the assumption that they are keeping current weapon loadout. I think it's too much to hope that GW will bring out a whole new kit for them with weapon options.

Agree, I'd just take all your suggestions as Codex: Deathguard 2.0

One idea could be to add another line or two of plague zombies and/or some other kinds of monsters besides spawn. My personal opinion is that the DG should be the most visceral and disgusting 40k army, both in fluff and crunch, and this could help.

The debate on whether or not Death Guard should be rolled back into the Chaos Space Marine codex seems to have gotten a lot of air time in this thread.

For whatever reason GW decided that Death Guard would become their own sub-faction. I found the choice of legion odd for a sub faction, but they did it. Like it or not, Death Guard now have their own ruleset separate from the Chaos Space Marine Codex. I don’t think anyone is arguing that it hasn’t aged well, the entire point of this thread is to figure out how to bring them on-par with more modern factions. So the general idea is that if we put Death Guard back in the Chaos Marine codex and grant them access to all the fun generic stuff they’re fixed right? I really disagree - I don’t think putting them back in the main CSM codex will fix them as a faction.

Death Guard have 14 unique units that they’ve never had before. What are to become of those? Sure, some like the Lord of Contagion could just be weapons options for an existing character such as the Terminator Lord but what about the Biologis Putrifier? The Tallyman? The Plague Surgeon? Do we now make generic versions of these available to all Chaos Marines? Do we keep them as Death Guard exclusive? Or do we delete them from existence?

Let’s say we keep all of them. Let’s be generous and make them available to any Legions or Renegades that can take NURGLE. Now we’ve created an imbalance in favour of Undivided and Nurgle forces, while Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeentch ones get nothing out of it.

Ok scrap that idea – Death Guard keep their toys. But now they have everyone else’s toys too! Dark Apostles, Forgefiends, Raptors, Bikes, Lord Discordant, Warpsmith. The lot. Now the codex is imbalanced in favour of Death Guard specifically.

Another thing I’ve seen suggested is that somehow roll the +1T and Disgustingly Resilient into their Legion Trait so that vanilla units are more “plague-mariney”. Ok sure now we have T6 bikers, Obliterators and Havocs with DR. Why would anyone ever take a Legion OTHER than Death Guard at this point? I’ve played Chaos since 3rd edition and the Mark of Nurgle has almost ALWAYS been the superior option. I don’t want Death Guard to become the new Mark of Nurgle. I say this as a current Death Guard player!

I do think the omission of certain things have hurt us, but I’m happy to have our own Codex. I believe a rework of our support Characters and some new stratagems is really all we need. Obliterators would be nice though…

Another thing I’ve seen suggested is that somehow roll the +1T and Disgustingly Resilient into their Legion Trait so that vanilla units are more “plague-mariney”. Ok sure now we have T6 bikers, Obliterators and Havocs with DR. Why would anyone ever take a Legion OTHER than Death Guard at this point? I’ve played Chaos since 3rd edition and the Mark of Nurgle has almost ALWAYS been the superior option. I don’t want Death Guard to become the new Mark of Nurgle. I say this as a current Death Guard player!

Why would you take mark of nurgle, check your stratagems, see that one called cacophony? yeah? that one, why bother with nurgle?

Further, DG getting CSM barebones toys is like, well, no issue at all because atm CSM toys only function with specific legion setups, meaning that a forgefiend is infinitely better with WB or IW then with DG and obliterators the same just with AL.

Fergie0044 wrote:

Plaguecaster - Buff them so know three powers and have 2 denies. (Note - to stop them being too similar to the now nurgleified sorcerers)

They already know 3 powers, unless you mean having 3 casts which seems a bit OTT for an army/faction that is not known to have any special psyker focus. 3 casts and 2 denies is Eldrad level.

Fhanados wrote:
For whatever reason GW decided that Death Guard would become their own sub-faction. I found the choice of legion odd for a sub faction, but they did it. Like it or not, Death Guard now have their own ruleset separate from the Chaos Space Marine Codex. I don’t think anyone is arguing that it hasn’t aged well, the entire point of this thread is to figure out how to bring them on-par with more modern factions. So the general idea is that if we put Death Guard back in the Chaos Marine codex and grant them access to all the fun generic stuff they’re fixed right? I really disagree - I don’t think putting them back in the main CSM codex will fix them as a faction.

Eh. The whole thing really is just a mind game to show how neglected DG have been. Many people who don't play them argue that DG shouldn't complaining, considering how we have gotten tons of new models, a primarch, our own codex and have had some impact on competitive gaming. People see all that, but they don't see what Death Guard don't have.

When CSM and DG were released, other legions had roughly the same amount of stuff as we had, we lost some of the more powerful stratagems and psychic powers but got unique stratagems, relics, warlord traits and units in return.
As 8th edition aged, CSM kept getting stuff, while DG didn't, with no real reason as to why. Now we are at a point where having our own codex isn't really much of an advantage compared to all the stuff we got locked out of for having it return.

What I, and probably every other DG player would have hoped for, would be:
- A single specialist detachment in Vigilus. We were the guys who apparently overran the entire northern continent with their plagues and had the third largest presence there. So we should have been represented in the rules, especially if something like Fallen got a spotlight.
- Access to the new units surrounding the Master of Possession. Not only are daemon engines and possessions a sub-theme of DG, but fluff-wise the plague planet should be a dream come real for any MoP with all its factories chumming out daemon engines. Havocs and Lords Discordant are clearly not DG units, so not having them is fine.
- Access to chaos lord with thunder hammer. It was added for CSM, but despite not actually having a DG model for lords, we still can't have the shiny new guy?
- Access to (the) demon weapon(s). The nurgle fist isn't really that great, but why can some red corsair chump get it, but a Death Guard lord can't?
Or, in other words, whenever GW gives something to the legions in Codex:CSM, they should at least consider whether DG (and TS!) should have that or not. Just like they do for Space Wolves or Dark Angels when they release stuff for codex compliant chapters.

As it is, we were lucky to not get skipped on bolter discipline and hateful blows as well. They did forget to give us "Mere Mortals" after all

Note that TS are very much in the same boat, but they have the benefit of being a younger codex and already having access to their PA. On the flip side, their internal balance is much worse than ours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bosskelot wrote:

Fergie0044 wrote:

Plaguecaster - Buff them so know three powers and have 2 denies. (Note - to stop them being too similar to the now nurgleified sorcerers)

They already know 3 powers, unless you mean having 3 casts which seems a bit OTT for an army/faction that is not known to have any special psyker focus. 3 casts and 2 denies is Eldrad level.

I think he meant 2 casts, 2 denies.

After reading Blood of Asaheim and Storm Caller and being a Necron and Space Wolves players, here are some changes I'd like for DG:

Units.
-One more wound for Plague Marines, Blightlords and Deathshrouds and other MEQ. They should be extremely hard to kill. After reading Blood of Asaheim and Storm Caller, I truly believe that this would make them not only more competitive, but also more akin to their fluff.
-Disgustingly resilient army wide. Everything should be harder to kill. That's the Nurgle theme.
-Fuse the chaos lord aura ability and the lord of contagion statline and equipment. It makes no sense to have these two seperated. As it is right now, either you have a decently melee killer or a buffing commander for blightlords. It pains to have to choose between the two.
-Plague Surgeon should give +1 to disgustingly resilient, just like crypteks give +1 to reanimation protocols. Should also have access to something like healing balms that the wolf priests have.

Relics
-Relics of the DG should focus on two things : making things harder to kill and dealing or triggering mortal wounds. Saddly, I have no inspiration for this.

Stratagems.
-Drawing inspiration from SW, I think a stratagems giving Deathsrouds and Blightlords +1 to wound during the fight phase would be could.
-A stratagem allowing to reroll for failed disgustingly resilient rolls for one phase.
-A stratagem that would trigger additionnal mortal wounds on a role of 6 for plague weapons.
-A stratagem allowing plague weapons to wound non-vehicles target for one phase on 4+

Psychic Powers
-I seriously was disappointed as to why most of the offensive psychic power required, after the psychic test, to roll an additionnal dice to trigger most effects on 5's and 6's. It makes most of them useless offensive wise. Maybe trigger the effects on 4+ or just remove the second roll ?

General equipment.
-Blight Launchers : make them range 30''
-Plague Belcher and Plague Spewer : make them poisened weapons.
-Great Plague Clever : make it an option for the Champion

In the CSM and DG codex, you can see in the picture of the Chaos Lord, he is holding a flail, but he can't use it in-game. I think that he should be allowed to have access to more of these special, PM-only weapons.

Hard to kill is boring. You need something that lets players leverage their agency rather than a step-stool for the army to stand on.

I think a points reduction would help a lot. Also I think DG needs more heavy weapons options

I've said it before in other threads, but DG really need better Stratagem support. The ones they have now are simply not adequate. Also, I think things like Chaos Lords and Possessed, and possibly even Helbrutes should get Disgustingly Resilient. That could get obnoxious on the FW stuff though, as Leviathans are already borderline broken I think (and I say that as the owner of a Leviathan for my Dark Angels).

Terminators in general should get a rule that reduces all incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. All Termies in the game should get this, both Loyalist and Chaos (and maybe even Ork MANz too). Might actually make them more relevant and able to take hits that would kill other 2W models while not making them ridiculously OP vs. massed small arms.

It'll be interesting to see what Psychic Awakening does for our pestilent Marine buddies. Probably 7 different subfaction traits with unique relics, warlord traits, and strats. Among other things.

Fhanados wrote:
The debate on whether or not Death Guard should be rolled back into the Chaos Space Marine codex seems to have gotten a lot of air time in this thread.

For whatever reason GW decided that Death Guard would become their own sub-faction. I found the choice of legion odd for a sub faction, but they did it. Like it or not, Death Guard now have their own ruleset separate from the Chaos Space Marine Codex. I don’t think anyone is arguing that it hasn’t aged well, the entire point of this thread is to figure out how to bring them on-par with more modern factions. So the general idea is that if we put Death Guard back in the Chaos Marine codex and grant them access to all the fun generic stuff they’re fixed right? I really disagree - I don’t think putting them back in the main CSM codex will fix them as a faction.

Death Guard have 14 unique units that they’ve never had before. What are to become of those? Sure, some like the Lord of Contagion could just be weapons options for an existing character such as the Terminator Lord but what about the Biologis Putrifier? The Tallyman? The Plague Surgeon? Do we now make generic versions of these available to all Chaos Marines? Do we keep them as Death Guard exclusive? Or do we delete them from existence?

Let’s say we keep all of them. Let’s be generous and make them available to any Legions or Renegades that can take NURGLE. Now we’ve created an imbalance in favour of Undivided and Nurgle forces, while Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeentch ones get nothing out of it.

Ok scrap that idea – Death Guard keep their toys. But now they have everyone else’s toys too! Dark Apostles, Forgefiends, Raptors, Bikes, Lord Discordant, Warpsmith. The lot. Now the codex is imbalanced in favour of Death Guard specifically.

Another thing I’ve seen suggested is that somehow roll the +1T and Disgustingly Resilient into their Legion Trait so that vanilla units are more “plague-mariney”. Ok sure now we have T6 bikers, Obliterators and Havocs with DR. Why would anyone ever take a Legion OTHER than Death Guard at this point? I’ve played Chaos since 3rd edition and the Mark of Nurgle has almost ALWAYS been the superior option. I don’t want Death Guard to become the new Mark of Nurgle. I say this as a current Death Guard player!

I do think the omission of certain things have hurt us, but I’m happy to have our own Codex. I believe a rework of our support Characters and some new stratagems is really all we need. Obliterators would be nice though…

Imagine thinking that the Tallyman, Putrifier, and Surgeon were somehow something that should've been made to begin with LOL. They're all bad models and don't do anything of worth.

 Bosskelot wrote:

Fergie0044 wrote:

Plaguecaster - Buff them so know three powers and have 2 denies. (Note - to stop them being too similar to the now nurgleified sorcerers)

They already know 3 powers, unless you mean having 3 casts which seems a bit OTT for an army/faction that is not known to have any special psyker focus. 3 casts and 2 denies is Eldrad level.

No, not three castings. Just that they know an extra power for more flexibility. The aim was to try and make the Plaguecaster and the Sorcerer different;
So the sorcerer has the advantage of choosing powers from two disciplines, while the Plaguecaster has more powers to chose from when casting in game. Both still have 2 casts though, but I gave the Plaguecaster an extra deny.

Death Guard are due a Psychic Awakening supplement in the near future.

Looking at how TS were improved, and how great the rules for Alpha Legion are, as an example, there's plenty to be excited about.

 Ishagu wrote:
Death Guard are due a Psychic Awakening supplement in the near future.

Looking at how TS were improved, and how great the rules for Alpha Legion are, as an example, there's plenty to be excited about.

Cautious optimism is my watch word for PA. Sure, a better legion trait (via the 7 plague companies which we can be pretty certain will have rules) and let's say 7 good stratagems could give us a real shot in the arm, but we won't be getting the total re-structure that the codex needs to be competitive. Being elevated to 'middle of the pack' status is the best we can hope for from PA, although I'd love to be wrong.

 Ishagu wrote:
Death Guard are due a Psychic Awakening supplement in the near future.

Looking at how TS were improved, and how great the rules for Alpha Legion are, as an example, there's plenty to be excited about.

GW has taught me over the last 10 years that PA might as well ruin DG and make them unplayable for the next years.

I prefer enjoying small gains over getting hopes crushed.

 Ishagu wrote:
Death Guard are due a Psychic Awakening supplement in the near future.

Looking at how TS were improved, and how great the rules for Alpha Legion are, as an example, there's plenty to be excited about.

Thousand Sons weren't really improved.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Death Guard are due a Psychic Awakening supplement in the near future.

Looking at how TS were improved, and how great the rules for Alpha Legion are, as an example, there's plenty to be excited about.

Thousand Sons weren't really improved.

Not from a tournament level point of view, but they got a bunch more options and some good stratagems. I also really liked the philosophy behind their update - the focus of a lot of the new things was to make Rubics and Scarab Occult more viable. Hopefully this wasn't just chance and someone at GW is aware that a TS army shouldn't just be Sorcerers and Tzaangors. And I really hope the same people are aware that a DG army shouldn't be only deamon engines!

Grey Knights went from being on of two factions with a lower winrate than DG into one of the most competitive armies after they got their PA (inquisition being the only faction with a worse winrate atm).
So there is hope, but I think DG will be merely a sideshow in their PA, considering how many factions being crammed into it.

Fergie0044 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Death Guard are due a Psychic Awakening supplement in the near future.

Looking at how TS were improved, and how great the rules for Alpha Legion are, as an example, there's plenty to be excited about.

Thousand Sons weren't really improved.

Not from a tournament level point of view, but they got a bunch more options and some good stratagems. I also really liked the philosophy behind their update - the focus of a lot of the new things was to make Rubics and Scarab Occult more viable. Hopefully this wasn't just chance and someone at GW is aware that a TS army shouldn't just be Sorcerers and Tzaangors. And I really hope the same people are aware that a DG army shouldn't be only deamon engines!

You mean those Strats that are only ever affecting one unit at a time? LOL k you can think that. The truth is they aren't better even at casual levels.

The current problem of the Death guard is that the codex was biult over 2 different phylosophies: the death guard one (slow and durable with focus on shooting) andd the one gw has for chaos (melee with minor shooting) result was that death guard excels in CC but has little ways to shorten the gap, and does only minor damage outside of it. I guess our durability should have allowed us the endure the footslogging, but that is no longer the case.

This leaves gw with two ways to fix this:
1) boost our shooting, removing our need to footslog.
2) give us ways to get in melee. Just boosting our durability wont work tought, becuase people can just kite us. We need something to close the gap.

strigops wrote:
The current problem of the Death guard is that the codex was biult over 2 different phylosophies: the death guard one (slow and durable with focus on shooting) andd the one gw has for chaos (melee with minor shooting) result was that death guard excels in CC but has little ways to shorten the gap, and does only minor damage outside of it. I guess our durability should have allowed us the endure the footslogging, but that is no longer the case.

This leaves gw with two ways to fix this:
1) boost our shooting, removing our need to footslog.
2) give us ways to get in melee. Just boosting our durability wont work tought, becuase people can just kite us. We need something to close the gap.

I get what you are saying with point 2, but there is only so far for the enemy to move before they hit the board edge. Plus, if they have to keep falling further back into their deployment zone to stay out of melee then you are probably winning on objectives.

 Jidmah wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

Tycho wrote:


It's a pretty trivial thing to just add the Dark Hereticus powers into their book (there's no reason why any CSM army wouldn't have this as an option), and add a few of the missing units (I don't see why Oblits, Greater Possesed, or Masters of Possesion would be unfluffy ofr example).

Genuine question, but would Oblits be worthwhile without Endless Cacophony?

The provide a kind of shooting DG are lacking right now, and they could move and shoot without penalties. I'd field them if I could.

Late to the party but I had started collecting a DG list awhile back, Oblits were going to be my infantry heavy fire power. Imagine my glee when they weren't in the DG codex. Here I thought they fit the theme of the DG, mobile, aggressive fire power, they even have a virus, even if it isn't a nurgle specific one. It really made my collecting feel like it was worthless when the codex came out missing them as an option. Still haven't picked up a pair of PBCs yet but maybe I'll need to as lacking any fire support sucks.

I fail to see how the Oblits would do any good for DG, between lacking the raw output increase and some of the key support elements it's an overpriced Terminator.

It doesn't matter whether they are overpriced if there is no alternative.

 Jidmah wrote:
It doesn't matter whether they are overpriced if there is no alternative.

i guess, but the slot oblits fill is dependant if they get the support to make the Alpha strike work via eliminating or tilting the randomness the gun has.
and when you get a 1/3 whiff chance for every off the 3 rolls for it's weapons that hurts kinda lot imo but i get where you are coming from.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
It doesn't matter whether they are overpriced if there is no alternative.

i guess, but the slot oblits fill is dependant if they get the support to make the Alpha strike work via eliminating or tilting the randomness the gun has.
and when you get a 1/3 whiff chance for every off the 3 rolls for it's weapons that hurts kinda lot imo but i get where you are coming from.

It's also possible that War of the Spider could give DG something that would help support obliterators. Though it's unfortunately unlikely that they'll be added to the dg army list in a pa book. That's the kind of thing that only happens to loyalists.

I mean if they are useless, why take them away ? They still fill the niche of mobile if chaotic fire power. They were still my choice for fire support as I wanted a heavy infantry focus for the fire power.

So long as you can have them nurgle they could have support elements for re rolls of one. If they were in the book maybe they'd have some things augment them as they do for chaos marines, something, like letting them re roll ones to wound for instance.

To be honest, points over costed doesn't matter as much to me as this was a fluff project, having dead models in my collection sucks more than not being the best choice. For now to use them I have to fork out more money on base chaos units and another codex, or just pick up PBCs to fill a role I had for them. Which the PBCs don't hit real well and also are somewhat chaotic in their output.

As is the only alternatives to range is Defiler, which I don't like, predators which I don't have for them and lack the DG flavor with no DR, or Brutes which while they can use the chapter rules for mobile fire power won't last very long either. Speaking core codex of course.

Heck I'd love even plague havocs but they don't have that either.

A big help would be a strat that let's us deepstrike infantry units closer than 9" like a 4" deepstrike

Random idea. How about Plague Weapons having improving AP or damage over time?

Turn 1-2, D1
Turn 3-4, D2
Turn 5-6, D3. Or D2+1 mortal if a save is failed

Or an AP increase

Call it "Progressive infections"

That wouldn't really help, outside of blight launchers and plague mortars, all plague weapons are melee or flamer.

It would be cool if we had more plague shooting though that wasn't like a booger or some snot bombs.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
It would be cool if we had more plague shooting though that wasn't like a booger or some snot bombs.

Seriously missed opportunity imo for Bio chemical weaponry...

But we need more plague melee weapons

Yes we need more crusty yellow toe nail blades. Jokes aside they do need some bio laced guns, like plague bolts, spice up the armory some and make it pop a bit more. Always felt odd to me they are so gross, yet their bolts were the same as every other marine when they are literally dripping into their gun, like parts of their body are melting into their gun, but no its not plague shooting at all, that would be silly.

If the putrefier buffed all plague weapons instead of just grenade would make him useful