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Hear me out a 4+ DR or even a 3+ DR that would be truly resilient its or how about this change DR to a 4+ and have all characters or at least HQs gain revoltingly resilient and get a 3+ DR it's no different than a 3++ from a storm shield we definitely need more resilience even add the AP thing from battle sisters stoic endurance

Well, a flat +1 to DR when you run a pure DG army would certainly help.

Summoning Poxealkers could be a fun gimmick. IDK about competitive but it would be pretty thematic. Outflanking PW would be interesting too.

I'm just really hoping for poxwalker buffs, since I never bought into the Plagebearer spam.

Moonknight wrote:
Hear me out a 4+ DR or even a 3+ DR that would be truly resilient its or how about this change DR to a 4+ and have all characters or at least HQs gain revoltingly resilient and get a 3+ DR it's no different than a 3++ from a storm shield we definitely need more resilience even add the AP thing from battle sisters stoic endurance

Eh DR is absolutely different to inv save. Hard to take request seriously when you claim 3+++ is no different than 3++.

Being able to pick up a unit of pox walkers and have them deep strike at full strength would be rad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Less than a third is usable. You can pretend it is, but in reality it's just a bunch of bloat that does little for the core army. Speaking of which, core Thousand Son armies didn't change, probably because nothing much of value was added!

I know this is a few days late and dangerously off topic but I feel I need to prove my statement about 1k PA. I will list the following things that have made a huge impact on the 1ksons.
An extra cast per turn or smite.
Psychic powers we got that are top tier are : Time Flux, Warp Reality, Seeded Strategy, Sorc Facade (which is unreal and fun to use. gets down right abusive with forgeworld). So we have 4 of 9 being beastly. And the only really bad ones outright is Attempted Possession and possibly Astral Blast. The others have uses depending on circumstance.

Things stay just as good with our new stratagems. Infernal Fusillade is bonkers for its price. Magister is great but should have been two extra warlord traits not one. Regardless its still top notch. Sorc infusion rounds it out for the top tier. Adepts (never peril if you have CP) and Indomitable foes are also close to top tier.

Then we have the new warlord traits which we did suffer from. The only real standout is Duplic tact which is so damn good. We have a few really really bad ones here.

As for relics, the Capricious Crest can net you a extra d6 smite damage if used on Magnus (d3 on DPs and sorcs) OR outright cause a power to not manifest and possibly peril if used on your opponent. Perfidious Tome is also insane. The hourglass and Pythic are situational but great if the conditions are met.

Id say we are a bit above 1/3rd on our PA. You should re-read it or try them out in play to see just how good the things I have listed are. As for hijacking this thread from the death guard I apologize and this will be my last post on the subject of 1ksons and PA.

Moonknight wrote:
Hear me out a 4+ DR or even a 3+ DR that would be truly resilient its or how about this change DR to a 4+ and have all characters or at least HQs gain revoltingly resilient and get a 3+ DR it's no different than a 3++ from a storm shield we definitely need more resilience even add the AP thing from battle sisters stoic endurance

I'm not so much a fan of just going down the same spiral as 6th/7th edition where increased firepower generated an increase of resilience until we had rerollable 2++, a whole army with 4+++, decurion Necrons with super 4+++ and Iron Hands. Maybe that ship has sailed, but I'd hope for some decrease in firepower in "9th edition". Personally I was a fan of the DG codex in regards to DR never being better than 5+++, it looked as if they had learned form the past.
So, an additional wound for Plague Marines is okay for me, maybe increase the rerolls for the surgeon to all dice with a stratagem, some of the Iron Hands stuff looks nice with decreasing the damage a unit takes, but a straight 4+++ I'm not so much a fan of as it would just make our army even more annoying to face .
Also, cloud of flies should be reworded. It's very strange that it has to be activated in your movement phase.

I agree that DG were pretty well done at their time, but two and a half years later I don't think 4+++ would be game breaking, especially if you connect it to running a pure DG army with no soup to mitigate their weaknesses - range and speed.

 Jidmah wrote:
I agree that DG were pretty well done at their time, but two and a half years later I don't think 4+++ would be game breaking, especially if you connect it to running a pure DG army with no soup to mitigate their weaknesses - range and speed.

I mean i remember a time were plague marines were allways 4+++.

I also agree that it wouldn't necessary be game breaking. I guess you could go for a tier system though. Cultists in a mono DG army could get a 6+++.
PM and all other could improve their FNP by one.

As it stands the non plague Alpha legion has better PM in regars to durability then DG and i find that a bit, iffy.

To be fair, ever since bolter discipline pretty much every legion and renegade chapter that can have marks of nurgle has better plague marines than DG do

I'd be wary about building toughness because of the Necron experience in 7th. It can get obnoxious very quickly.

To my mind with Necrons you had a clear tier system. Certain armies could punch through the resilience - so Necrons became not especially competitive about mid way through that edition. Other armies however could not scratch them at all. With low tier armies you fired your entire army at them and killed three necron warriors. There wasn't even the illusion of a game.

Which is the problem. You can buff the toughness so DG can advance across the table in the face of an optimised Space Marine gunline - but then armies with weaker damage output won't be able to scratch them. Which is going to be incredibly dispiriting. This may be good for DG - but its not good for the game.

I'd buff their offensive output. It might not be as fluffy as all defensive stats all the time - but its easier to balance. Maybe a bit copy-cat, but a sort of Grey Knight mechanic of activated rolling plagues giving a certain buff each turn could be interesting.

That is true, I remember some horrible games against the necron decurion with my orks. 4+/4+++ with re-rolls was pretty obnoxious, and I do have comparable games with my Death Guard against weaker armies or players.

This is usually related to me investing heavy into the DG-specific daemon englines and Mortarion though, not to Plague Marines, Pox Walkers, Cultists or any of the units we share with Codex:CSM. Those thend to die like flies.

I would buff the asymetric warfare aspect of the army, do it with strats or whatever but introduce "strains" of virus or some such that they can use or purchase, pop a -1 T on an enemy unit or force the entire unit to take T test or die, basically give them plenty of tools via these kinds of rules to heavily reinforce the theme.

Prime example is the plagueburst crawler, give it a shot that makes a piece of terrain "dangerous" for a turn, anyone inside take a T test or takes 1 mortal wound, very fluffy

 Formosa wrote:
I would buff the asymetric warfare aspect of the army, do it with strats or whatever but introduce "strains" of virus or some such that they can use or purchase, pop a -1 T on an enemy unit or force the entire unit to take T test or die, basically give them plenty of tools via these kinds of rules to heavily reinforce the theme.

Prime example is the plagueburst crawler, give it a shot that makes a piece of terrain "dangerous" for a turn, anyone inside take a T test or takes 1 mortal wound, very fluffy

That could be an interesting way to make the crawler a little better. You could give it various stratagems for debuffs on units that it hits, maybe make W/ BS/S/ or T -1 until the next DG shooting phase for every unit that it hits as it is throwing some sort of plague at them depending on the stratagem you pick. Gives DG something to spend their command points on and it could be a way to reduce a key units' effectiveness.

 DrGiggles wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I would buff the asymetric warfare aspect of the army, do it with strats or whatever but introduce "strains" of virus or some such that they can use or purchase, pop a -1 T on an enemy unit or force the entire unit to take T test or die, basically give them plenty of tools via these kinds of rules to heavily reinforce the theme.

Prime example is the plagueburst crawler, give it a shot that makes a piece of terrain "dangerous" for a turn, anyone inside take a T test or takes 1 mortal wound, very fluffy

That could be an interesting way to make the crawler a little better. You could give it various stratagems for debuffs on units that it hits, maybe make W/ BS/S/ or T -1 until the next DG shooting phase for every unit that it hits as it is throwing some sort of plague at them depending on the stratagem you pick. Gives DG something to spend their command points on and it could be a way to reduce a key units' effectiveness.

I agree. It's also why I'd like to see a 'shoot again' strategem for MBHs. Their default weapons aren't amazing, so it wouldn't be too powerful, but it would be a nice buff to a fun unit.

 DrGiggles wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I would buff the asymetric warfare aspect of the army, do it with strats or whatever but introduce "strains" of virus or some such that they can use or purchase, pop a -1 T on an enemy unit or force the entire unit to take T test or die, basically give them plenty of tools via these kinds of rules to heavily reinforce the theme.

Prime example is the plagueburst crawler, give it a shot that makes a piece of terrain "dangerous" for a turn, anyone inside take a T test or takes 1 mortal wound, very fluffy

That could be an interesting way to make the crawler a little better. You could give it various stratagems for debuffs on units that it hits, maybe make W/ BS/S/ or T -1 until the next DG shooting phase for every unit that it hits as it is throwing some sort of plague at them depending on the stratagem you pick. Gives DG something to spend their command points on and it could be a way to reduce a key units' effectiveness.

Or you could go for full synergy and give some units, like mortyrion, the crawlers, the flyers etc mini auras or stratagems that would buff stuff. nothing huge, but maybe next to mortyrion DR is better , near the flyers the -from flies is stronger, and the crawlers buff the MW dealing a bit.

Prime example is the plagueburst crawler, give it a shot that makes a piece of terrain "dangerous" for a turn, anyone inside take a T test or takes 1 mortal wound, very fluffy

Fluffy, but since no one uses terrain rules, IDK how competitive that makes it. Plus, since terrain in 8th has largely been reduced to "I'm sitting IN it and not moving", "I'm hiding BEHIND it to block LoS", or "I'm moving around it and ignoring it", IDK how useful that would be. That said, I'd definitely be interested in some sort of Strat that adds something to the Mortar. I want that gun to be awesome in the worst way, and it just ... isnt ... It really says something when you have a tank that's designed as an artillery piece, and most of the competitive advice for it is "Put the flamers on it and run it upfield" lol.

I think keeping T5 on Plague Marines is fine, but I think you could get away with making the DR a 4+ if you run mono-DG (for Plague Marines ONLY - everyone else keeps the 5+), and they wouldn't be at the above example of the 7th Ed Necrons. I would keep the 5+ on everything else, but maybe give the Rhino a 5+ DR as well. That would not only make PMs more competitive, it would actually give you a reason to take them at all. What I like about DG is that they now play like they "should" in that the play style matches the fluff. If you start buffing the offensive output, you just start pushing them more towards Imperial Marines and away from DG.

EDIT:

I think I said this before, but similar to the Tsons, I think it would be good to have some new psychic powers that help with toughness on infantry, and/or with bringing models back from the dead. As it stands, it's a lot harder to kill my Tsons than it is to kill my DG, and that just feels wrong.

 Formosa wrote:
I would buff the asymetric warfare aspect of the army, do it with strats or whatever but introduce "strains" of virus or some such that they can use or purchase, pop a -1 T on an enemy unit or force the entire unit to take T test or die, basically give them plenty of tools via these kinds of rules to heavily reinforce the theme.

Prime example is the plagueburst crawler, give it a shot that makes a piece of terrain "dangerous" for a turn, anyone inside take a T test or takes 1 mortal wound, very fluffy

I like the plague idea. An interesting way to implement it would be instead of buffing our army, you could release plague strains would debuff all non-nurgle units, basically reverse chapter tactics.

I think plague marines could be fixed giving them +1W +1A and plague weapon rules for their bolters.

+5FNP with 1W is trash because each 2D weapon will nearly always kill you. But with two wounds the probability of saving one dice and tanking two whole shots is very high.

Wouldn't that make them more resilient then termintors ?

Terminators have a 4++ on top.

Just gotta say, as an avid Death Guard player, I'm loving some of the theory crafting you guys are doing. Keeping me entertained through lockdown.

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't that make them more resilient then termintors ?

Well yeah blighlord terminators should go to 3W with 3A each (Or only 3W if you want because Nurgle is more about resilience than offensive). I mean paladins exist, is not that rare. And for the love of god make Deathsroud terminators 3W too. For them to have 2W is insane. I mean look at them:

Well yeah blighlord terminators should go to 3W with 3A each (Or only 3W if you want because Nurgle is more about resilience than offensive). I mean paladins exist, is not that rare. And for the love of god make Deathsroud terminators 3W too. For them to have 2W is insane. I mean look at them:

Agreed. For what they are, I always feel like they die too easily.

Tycho wrote:

Well yeah blighlord terminators should go to 3W with 3A each (Or only 3W if you want because Nurgle is more about resilience than offensive). I mean paladins exist, is not that rare. And for the love of god make Deathsroud terminators 3W too. For them to have 2W is insane. I mean look at them:

Agreed. For what they are, I always feel like they die too easily.

All terminators should have three wounds. Blightlord terminators should have four. So with their 4++ and dr they're tougher than a Custodes terminator, but not as good offensively.

All terminators should have three wounds. Blightlord terminators should have four. So with their 4++ and dr they're tougher than a Custodes terminator, but not as good offensively

I like this idea a lot. It fixes a lot more than just some DG units. That said, I could see 4w Blight Lords being a tough pill to swallow for some. Do you think you'd keep the points the same for that wound, or would they need to go up a little more? I actually feel like, given the rest of the army, keeping the points level where it is would work (even with the extra stuff), but curious what everyone else thinks?

Tycho wrote:

All terminators should have three wounds. Blightlord terminators should have four. So with their 4++ and dr they're tougher than a Custodes terminator, but not as good offensively

I like this idea a lot. It fixes a lot more than just some DG units. That said, I could see 4w Blight Lords being a tough pill to swallow for some. Do you think you'd keep the points the same for that wound, or would they need to go up a little more? I actually feel like, given the rest of the army, keeping the points level where it is would work (even with the extra stuff), but curious what everyone else thinks?

For 4W they would need to go up in points. Not a lot since that defeats the purpose of a buff but I'm not sure you can double their wounds for nothing. Maybe make them 40 pts without any war gear? That would make a stock BL Termi 47pts, making a 5 man squad 235 points if my napkin math is correct. That doesn't seem bad for 21 T5 wounds with a 2+/4++/5+++.

Siegfriedfr wrote:
One page of stratagem was the good design. A truckload of them for other factions was the wrong one.

Not particularly hopeful 9th will be better on that front, this stratagem bloat is probably awesome from a competitive point of view, since it offers new tactical options.

You are totally right, one page of stratagem for each keyword. But they need to add a few more universal stratagem, and change the command point generation so that it is generated each turn.
Some of the things I'm reading here makes no sense really. You really think a 4+ FNP and 2W min is balanced ? This would make DG absolutly horrendous to play against, available to just wash off most of the things your opponent can throw at you.

 DrGiggles wrote:

Tycho wrote:

All terminators should have three wounds. Blightlord terminators should have four. So with their 4++ and dr they're tougher than a Custodes terminator, but not as good offensively

I like this idea a lot. It fixes a lot more than just some DG units. That said, I could see 4w Blight Lords being a tough pill to swallow for some. Do you think you'd keep the points the same for that wound, or would they need to go up a little more? I actually feel like, given the rest of the army, keeping the points level where it is would work (even with the extra stuff), but curious what everyone else thinks?

For 4W they would need to go up in points. Not a lot since that defeats the purpose of a buff but I'm not sure you can double their wounds for nothing. Maybe make them 40 pts without any war gear? That would make a stock BL Termi 47pts, making a 5 man squad 235 points if my napkin math is correct. That doesn't seem bad for 21 T5 wounds with a 2+/4++/5+++.

Yeah you'd definitely need a points bump. That sounds reasonable.

You are totally right, one page of stratagem for each keyword. But they need to add a few more universal stratagem, and change the command point generation so that it is generated each turn.
Some of the things I'm reading here makes no sense really. You really think a 4+ FNP and 2W min is balanced ? This would make DG absolutly horrendous to play against, available to just wash off most of the things your opponent can throw at you.

Yes, I think it would work because they're already so expensive that you don't see many of them. Those buffs would probably mean an additional increase in points, so you would still not be seeing a lot of those units. It would just mean that, instead of 60 Pox-walkers, a mono-DG list would maybe suddenly have less walkers, and maybe two squads of actual marines in it. In terms of a competitive unit (which again is the point here), I can think of a lot of things that are currently fielded that aren't causing issues and are on-par with, or better than that suggestion. That said, I'd even be fine with keeping the 5+ FNP but just giving them a second wound. As currently constructed, DG marines die so easily it's absurd. Since they don't have any offensive punch (which is fine because they shouldn't have both offense AND defense imo), there's absolutely no reason to take them right now. Heck, my Tsons are WAY harder to kill than my DG are right now, and 8th is so lethal that even they don't stick around too long.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think the suggestion is too crazy, and no, just changing the way strategems and command points work won't help their competitive standing. In fact, it likely would do more to hurt them given what they currently have.

So if toughness and resilience is supposed to be their thing (and it currently isn't), how would you fix them? Because just tossing in a few strats isn't going to get it done.

EDIT:

Yeah you'd definitely need a points bump. That sounds reasonable.

Yeah, I think DrGiggle's suggested bump for that feels about right TBH.