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 Grimtuff wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think part of the problem is how the Cult Legions are treated as "All Berserker Marines, All Noise Marines, All Plague Marines, All Rubric Marines" that has gone on for several editions.

Except that is literally true.

GW themselves said many a year ago- All World Eaters are Berzerkers but not all Berzerkers are World Eaters. Similar logic applies to all other (apart from TS, who are their own unique thing). So, every DG marine is a PM, but not every PM belongs to the DG Legion.

Except, if that were the case, the armies wouldn't have been written as is. It's the same as the stereotype of all White Scars being Bikers. It's detrimental to the rules writing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think part of the problem is how the Cult Legions are treated as "All Berserker Marines, All Noise Marines, All Plague Marines, All Rubric Marines" that has gone on for several editions.

Except that is literally true.

GW themselves said many a year ago- All World Eaters are Berzerkers but not all Berzerkers are World Eaters. Similar logic applies to all other (apart from TS, who are their own unique thing). So, every DG marine is a PM, but not every PM belongs to the DG Legion.

Except, if that were the case, the armies wouldn't have been written as is. It's the same as the stereotype of all White Scars being Bikers. It's detrimental to the rules writing.

So the authors of 40k are wrong because you say so (like so many other things oh self-appointed king of 40k... ), right?

 Grimtuff wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I think part of the problem is how the Cult Legions are treated as "All Berserker Marines, All Noise Marines, All Plague Marines, All Rubric Marines" that has gone on for several editions.

Except that is literally true.

GW themselves said many a year ago- All World Eaters are Berzerkers but not all Berzerkers are World Eaters. Similar logic applies to all other (apart from TS, who are their own unique thing). So, every DG marine is a PM, but not every PM belongs to the DG Legion.

Except, if that were the case, the armies wouldn't have been written as is. It's the same as the stereotype of all White Scars being Bikers. It's detrimental to the rules writing.

So the authors of 40k are wrong because you say so (like so many other things oh self-appointed king of 40k... ), right?

So why isn't every Emperors Children Havoc a Noise Marine and has never been? I'll wait.

This thread is about Death Guard, not EC. All of them are plague marines, as stated multiple times in novels and codices.

Getting back OT, what psychic powers would people like to see added (besides stock CSM spells)?

I'd like to change gift of contagion so you could pick which one of the effects happened, or split it into three spells so you can cast them around the field as needed.

A spell that makes a unit within 18" suffer -1 to their saves would be cool too (maybe their armor is corroded or something). Would help buff DG damage without directly touching any statlines. Not sure what the WC should be for it though.

 Jidmah wrote:
This thread is about Death Guard, not EC. All of them are plague marines, as stated multiple times in novels and codices.

If that was the case they'd all be for the most part those same Vets from the Heresy. Except they have to recruit new members. Who just happen to be only Plague Marines. Even though the rules never reflected anything you guys are saying nor has it ever been written well.
LOL okay and fluff tells us Space Marines use Multilasers all the time. Lemme know when that's an option.

I mean it only makes sense than when Death Guard recruit new marines they give them the gift of contagion and make them nurgle marines. The only reason many DG units dont' is because no models no rules, but if DG would to have bikers, havocs, etc... theres no reason those could not be just plague marines on bikes, with heavy weapons, plague marines on jump packs, etc... with the exception of no models no rules.

Just remove the Lord of Contagion entry all together and make that model the Death Guard Chaos Lord.

He's pointless anyway.

No one will blink an eye, as long as he as access to all of the wargear the Chaos Lord and Lord of Contagion currently have access to. None of this no model, no rule bs.

That would actually fix the Chaos Lord entry for DG as well. Just combine them in some way so we have a tough unit that gets DR, but isn't utterly useless outside of your opponent completely screwing up.

I think part of the problem is how the Cult Legions are treated as "All Berserker Marines, All Noise Marines, All Plague Marines, All Rubric Marines" that has gone on for several editions.

I don't understand where you're going here (unless you're setting up another "They should all be rolled back into CSM derailment). I don't see how that has any bearing on anything. It's like saying "Pert of the problem with Marines is that Marneus Calgar used to be half-Eldar". It doesn't really have any effect on the current competitive level ...

I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make, but I'd like to see their Tri-Lobe rule buffed so that it grants +1 to hit for each additional Hauler in the unit. That way, even though they would still be stuck with Multi-melta and Missile Launcher, a unit of three would hit on 2s, and a unit of two would still get some benefit.

I think they could also be given a cheap 'shoot again stratagem' without breaking the game.

i like these suggestions, but honestly, I think they'd be in a good place if they just had, say, a 20pt decrease? Is that too much? I find that their rules tend to do well for me, but the points are still just too high. They might be fine with the right point reduction.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
This thread is about Death Guard, not EC. All of them are plague marines, as stated multiple times in novels and codices.

If that was the case they'd all be for the most part those same Vets from the Heresy. Except they have to recruit new members. Who just happen to be only Plague Marines.

The death guard just recruit regular humans from their home planet and turn them into marines, just like loyalists do. Unlike most other, they have remained a fully functional legion.
A new recruit, be it renegade, human turned into marine or member of another legion can only become a member of the Death Guard if they have received the gifts of nurgle and will be turned into a plague marine upon swearing loyalty to Mortarion.
You know, because they would just die of disease or toxins otherwise.

Even though the rules never reflected anything you guys are saying nor has it ever been written well.

Have you ever heard of a "Mark of Nurgle"?

LOL okay and fluff tells us Space Marines use Multilasers all the time. Lemme know when that's an option.

Bad attempt at strawmanning from someone who tries to discuss DG fluff despite obviously not even having read the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
I mean it only makes sense than when Death Guard recruit new marines they give them the gift of contagion and make them nurgle marines. The only reason many DG units dont' is because no models no rules, but if DG would to have bikers, havocs, etc... theres no reason those could not be just plague marines on bikes, with heavy weapons, plague marines on jump packs, etc... with the exception of no models no rules.

I agree, but would like to point out that DG explicitly do not have havocs - even before the heresy Mortarion believed that infantry should not be carrying heavy weaponry, but that it should be mounted on more durable platforms.

I would rather increase the differentiation between DG and CSM. So that means no importing of the other daemon engines, as well as getting rid of Chaos Lords, Sorcerers, Possessed ... and maybe even Helbrutes, Predators and Land Raiders.

Then we can take the things those units do and give them to DG units that need help. So do the following:

Lord of Contagion: I really like the idea of giving him the -1T aura that Mortarion also has. I think this is really fluffy, powerful, and good fun. This is balanced by him being slow as buggery, with no jet pack, but I like the idea that he can do stuff even before he slugs his way there.

Typhus: Keep him as the Poxwalker buffer, but he should give them more buffs: +1S and +1T like usual, but also +1"M and +1A.

Plague Marines: They need an extra wound, let's face it, but I have further plans in store for them below.

Poxwalkers: I think that they just need to be taken in squads of up to 30, if not 40.

Elites are then when the fun can begin:
Noxious Blightbringer: Grant him prayers, like a Dark Apostle, but Nurgle style. He gets two Poxwalker buddies instead of Dark Apostles, but rather then grant him a bonus, he can 'consume' one each turn to super-charge a prayer. He keeps the rest of his bonuses as now (as Elites are not as useful as HQs), and he is 0-1 per Death Guard Detachment.

Plague Surgeon: Keep the re-roll of 1s for DR, like currently, but he grants Plague Marines re-rolls of *all* failed DR rolls. Maybe even for Terminators also. One per DG detachment.

Tallyman: Keeps his CP farming, and gets the now absent Chaos Lord's re-roll 1s to-hit aura, while keeping re-roll all to-hits in close combat.

Terminators: +1W regardless of kind.

Myphitic Blight Hauler: They should take the role of Helbrutes, and be costed as such. Perhaps a proper kit to give them more weapon options. Also, Daemon Engines should hit have WS/BS3+.

Chaos Spawn: I think they should be kept as they are, but basically be given some kind of Stratagem that makes them fulfil the role of DG possessed.

Plagueburst Crawler: BS3+.

A bunch of fun new stratagems would be useful too, but ultimately I like that GW is working to give forces unique identities. DG should, then, have less overlap with CSM, not more. I prefer 'unique parallel units' (e.g. Myphitic Blight Haulers = Helbrutes) than 'the same data sheet and DR'.

 TonyH122 wrote:
I would rather increase the differentiation between DG and CSM. So that means no importing of the other daemon engines, as well as getting rid of Chaos Lords, Sorcerers, Possessed ... and maybe even Helbrutes, Predators and Land Raiders.

Helbrutes, Predators and Land Raiders (as well as Vindicators) are part of DG's "still a functional legion"-shtick, as killing off vehicle crew with plagues/toxins and capturing them for their own is very much part of their identity.
Possessed also are firmly anchored in their lore, but I think they should be +1T and have DR to make them functionally different from melee plague marines.

Poxwalkers: I think that they just need to be taken in squads of up to 30, if not 40.

I'll ask you as well - why?

Noxious Blightbringer: Grant him prayers, like a Dark Apostle, but Nurgle style. He gets two Poxwalker buddies instead of Dark Apostles, but rather then grant him a bonus, he can 'consume' one each turn to super-charge a prayer. He keeps the rest of his bonuses as now (as Elites are not as useful as HQs), and he is 0-1 per Death Guard Detachment.
[...]
Tallyman: Keeps his CP farming, and gets the now absent Chaos Lord's re-roll 1s to-hit aura, while keeping re-roll all to-hits in close combat.

The tallyman is the "priest" character though. Maybe switch your ideas around?
I like the idea of consuming pox walkers, maybe he could just draw from regular units.

Plague Surgeon: Keep the re-roll of 1s for DR, like currently, but he grants Plague Marines re-rolls of *all* failed DR rolls. Maybe even for Terminators also. One per DG detachment.

+1 to DR for infantry is about the same chance as full re-rolls, except less time wasted. Re-rolling ones is pretty much worthless and could be dropped.

Chaos Spawn: I think they should be kept as they are, but basically be given some kind of Stratagem that makes them fulfil the role of DG possessed.

Why drop possessed and keep spawns? I'd rather do it the other way around.

A bunch of fun new stratagems would be useful too, but ultimately I like that GW is working to give forces unique identities. DG should, then, have less overlap with CSM, not more. I prefer 'unique parallel units' (e.g. Myphitic Blight Haulers = Helbrutes) than 'the same data sheet and DR'.

In general, I agree, but more unique datasheets require more unique models. I'd don't see GW releasing large amounts of DG any time soon. Splinter armies like ours tend to have little support unless you have someone in the design team having personal interest in them.

Tycho wrote:

Just remove the Lord of Contagion entry all together and make that model the Death Guard Chaos Lord.

He's pointless anyway.

No one will blink an eye, as long as he as access to all of the wargear the Chaos Lord and Lord of Contagion currently have access to. None of this no model, no rule bs.

That would actually fix the Chaos Lord entry for DG as well. Just combine them in some way so we have a tough unit that gets DR, but isn't utterly useless outside of your opponent completely screwing up.

I think part of the problem is how the Cult Legions are treated as "All Berserker Marines, All Noise Marines, All Plague Marines, All Rubric Marines" that has gone on for several editions.

I don't understand where you're going here (unless you're setting up another "They should all be rolled back into CSM derailment). I don't see how that has any bearing on anything. It's like saying "Pert of the problem with Marines is that Marneus Calgar used to be half-Eldar". It doesn't really have any effect on the current competitive level ...

I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make, but I'd like to see their Tri-Lobe rule buffed so that it grants +1 to hit for each additional Hauler in the unit. That way, even though they would still be stuck with Multi-melta and Missile Launcher, a unit of three would hit on 2s, and a unit of two would still get some benefit.

I think they could also be given a cheap 'shoot again stratagem' without breaking the game.

i like these suggestions, but honestly, I think they'd be in a good place if they just had, say, a 20pt decrease? Is that too much? I find that their rules tend to do well for me, but the points are still just too high. They might be fine with the right point reduction.

1Yes they should be rolled back into the CSM codex, which honestly would automatically help. It's worked fine before and now all the sudden it doesn't? Yeah no. However I'm pointing out the problem of how the Cult Legions are treated rules wise, fluff wise, AND player wise is always inconsistent. Treating the Cult Legions like that is the same as treating every Night Lord as a Raptor and White Scar as a Biker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
This thread is about Death Guard, not EC. All of them are plague marines, as stated multiple times in novels and codices.

If that was the case they'd all be for the most part those same Vets from the Heresy. Except they have to recruit new members. Who just happen to be only Plague Marines.

The death guard just recruit regular humans from their home planet and turn them into marines, just like loyalists do. Unlike most other, they have remained a fully functional legion.
A new recruit, be it renegade, human turned into marine or member of another legion can only become a member of the Death Guard if they have received the gifts of nurgle and will be turned into a plague marine upon swearing loyalty to Mortarion.
You know, because they would just die of disease or toxins otherwise.

Even though the rules never reflected anything you guys are saying nor has it ever been written well.

Have you ever heard of a "Mark of Nurgle"?

LOL okay and fluff tells us Space Marines use Multilasers all the time. Lemme know when that's an option.

Bad attempt at strawmanning from someone who tries to discuss DG fluff despite obviously not even having read the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
I mean it only makes sense than when Death Guard recruit new marines they give them the gift of contagion and make them nurgle marines. The only reason many DG units dont' is because no models no rules, but if DG would to have bikers, havocs, etc... theres no reason those could not be just plague marines on bikes, with heavy weapons, plague marines on jump packs, etc... with the exception of no models no rules.

I agree, but would like to point out that DG explicitly do not have havocs - even before the heresy Mortarion believed that infantry should not be carrying heavy weaponry, but that it should be mounted on more durable platforms.

1. Saying they've been a functioning Legion is inaccurate. None of the Legions are really functioning outside Black Legion. Otherwise they all have their internal fighting with ulterior and hidden motives. Death Guard is no different outside maybe extremely specific new fluff, which is only that: new.
2. Mark of Nurgle still exists. You just don't get the +1T, which is both good and bad, and part of the problem was showing dedication and blessed by Nurgle vs completely in bed with Nurgle. Where does the +1T belong? The FNP? Being pseudo Relentless?
3. And if a new codex said Primaris are the best EVAR we wouldn't have people arguing about the new fluff. Oh wait. Also my point stands and where is the Multilasers for my Marines?
4. Except that is not the case. Just because Mortarion liked something doesn't mean in reality that's what happened. You wanna talk fluff, what about the Heresy armies in general? Those Havocs sure worked back then and unless you want to somehow come to the conclusion that he got rid of them or they all died, then the fact remains: Death Guard lost a LOT more than they gained and the codex was a bad attempt by GW.

Thanks for confirming my assumption.

You have clearly not read the DG fluff. Almost every word you have written is incorrect. There is no point in explaining colors to a blind man.

 Jidmah wrote:
Thanks for confirming my assumption.

You have clearly not read the DG fluff. Almost every word you have written is incorrect. There is no point in explaining colors to a blind man.

You can't bother to refute other than "read stuff" which means you don't really have specific sources. Either accept that the fluff has never matched the rules and never will, and that consolidation helps fix several issues. Either that or keep pretending this current Death Guard codex somehow fits the fluff more (which it doesn't)..

I quite clearly cited my source.

 Jidmah wrote:
I quite clearly cited my source.

Your source is ONE codex and my source is multiple codices and 30k. Your move, bud.

Death Guard are all plague marines hit by the very unique Destroyer Hive virus.

Other plague marines might exist, but all Death Guard have been infected by the Destroyer Hive specifically, courtesy of our good buddy Typhus.

1Yes they should be rolled back into the CSM codex, which honestly would automatically help. It's worked fine before and now all the sudden it doesn't? Yeah no.

No it hasn't "worked fine" before. Death Guard have never actually had a real army before (in 40k). Ironically, they had just Plague Marines. The very problem you're arguing against. I'm also unconvinced it would help. It would A. Guarantee they don't get anymore updates, and B. what? Give them access to a book that, in and of itself isn't that great either? Nope. Don't want it, don't need it. Two negatives don't really make a positive here. Just give us the stuff we should have had in the first place and let the CSM book be the CSM book.

We should have access to Dark Hereticus - that would help quite a bit, and it would be cool if we could apply some of our powers/abilities to units with the Mark of Nurgle, for better synergy, but rolling them back in? Why? So I can go back to playing a very unfluffy AND very very average to below average imitation of DG? One that will never really be truly updated as long as it stays in that book? I'm good thanks. Especially since they removed the ability of cult units to be troops. Nah. I think we're good on our own.

1. Saying they've been a functioning Legion is inaccurate. None of the Legions are really functioning outside Black Legion. Otherwise they all have their internal fighting with ulterior and hidden motives. Death Guard is no different outside maybe extremely specific new fluff, which is only that: new.

There are several "functioning legions", but all of them (including Black Legion) have in-fighting. I never understand where this "BUTBUTBUT THEY"RE CHAOS! THERE ARE NO FUNCTIONING LEGIONS!" stuff comes from? There's the Tsons codex that actually brings Ahriman and Magnus back together, There's the Word Bearer's Omnibus that clearly states, that even though Kor Pharon and Erebus are playing games with each other, that they're still a legion, there's a boat-load of Iron Warriors stuff that indicates that while there are some little splinter groups, THEY still have an over-all Legion, there's the DG codex indicating they still have a functioning Legion, there's just a lot of big-picture stuff indicating that the phrase "there are no functioning legions" is pretty inaccurate.

Also my point stands and where is the Multilasers for my Marines?

As usual lately, I'm not actually sure you have a point. Like above, most of the big picture stuff stays pretty constant, but CS Goto's stuff was diss-avowed years ago. There's a ton of silly things like this in the fluff. There's his back-flipping terminators, there's James Swallow's abomination of a Blood Angel's Omnibus where half the legion basically revolts because "chaos magic" (which has also kind of been diss-owned by GW at this point - I honestly don't know how they ok'd that storyline in the first place but I digress), and a boat load of other stuff that changes occasionally. So it's not a great example to cherry pick something like the multi-laser example. Maybe pick something that hasn't changed? As for the thread topic -DG have stayed pretty on-point over the years. Their fluff has been expanded upon, but there's never been (as far as I know), a change that would retcon anything. So we know that all Death Guard cult marines, are just that - Death Guard cult marines. No such thing as a non-Plague Marine in the Death Guard.


Anywho - back OT-

Suggestions for the heavy support slot? As someone else pointed out, Havocs aren't really fluffy for DG - this was discussed in a little detail earlier in the thread, but would we want access to something like Oblits? I can't think of a fluff reason why not, but I still think they need a points decrease. Give the whole "Mortarion doesn't believe in troops carrying the big-guns thing", I'd kind of like to see some kind of customizable gun platform that could be a stand-in as our equivalent of Havocs. Probably a new Demon Engine, but one that's geared completely towards ranged combat. Thoughts?

That platform is dreadnoughts, in a legion that always favoured dreadnoughts. They just need DR and stratagem support to be pretty good at it. I would take some fluffy, dreddy love over new Adjective NounVerber demons any day.

Tycho wrote:

1Yes they should be rolled back into the CSM codex, which honestly would automatically help. It's worked fine before and now all the sudden it doesn't? Yeah no.

No it hasn't "worked fine" before. Death Guard have never actually had a real army before (in 40k). Ironically, they had just Plague Marines. The very problem you're arguing against. I'm also unconvinced it would help. It would A. Guarantee they don't get anymore updates, and B. what? Give them access to a book that, in and of itself isn't that great either? Nope. Don't want it, don't need it. Two negatives don't really make a positive here. Just give us the stuff we should have had in the first place and let the CSM book be the CSM book.

We should have access to Dark Hereticus - that would help quite a bit, and it would be cool if we could apply some of our powers/abilities to units with the Mark of Nurgle, for better synergy, but rolling them back in? Why? So I can go back to playing a very unfluffy AND very very average to below average imitation of DG? One that will never really be truly updated as long as it stays in that book? I'm good thanks. Especially since they removed the ability of cult units to be troops. Nah. I think we're good on our own.

1. Saying they've been a functioning Legion is inaccurate. None of the Legions are really functioning outside Black Legion. Otherwise they all have their internal fighting with ulterior and hidden motives. Death Guard is no different outside maybe extremely specific new fluff, which is only that: new.

There are several "functioning legions", but all of them (including Black Legion) have in-fighting. I never understand where this "BUTBUTBUT THEY"RE CHAOS! THERE ARE NO FUNCTIONING LEGIONS!" stuff comes from? There's the Tsons codex that actually brings Ahriman and Magnus back together, There's the Word Bearer's Omnibus that clearly states, that even though Kor Pharon and Erebus are playing games with each other, that they're still a legion, there's a boat-load of Iron Warriors stuff that indicates that while there are some little splinter groups, THEY still have an over-all Legion, there's the DG codex indicating they still have a functioning Legion, there's just a lot of big-picture stuff indicating that the phrase "there are no functioning legions" is pretty inaccurate.

Also my point stands and where is the Multilasers for my Marines?

As usual lately, I'm not actually sure you have a point. Like above, most of the big picture stuff stays pretty constant, but CS Goto's stuff was diss-avowed years ago. There's a ton of silly things like this in the fluff. There's his back-flipping terminators, there's James Swallow's abomination of a Blood Angel's Omnibus where half the legion basically revolts because "chaos magic" (which has also kind of been diss-owned by GW at this point - I honestly don't know how they ok'd that storyline in the first place but I digress), and a boat load of other stuff that changes occasionally. So it's not a great example to cherry pick something like the multi-laser example. Maybe pick something that hasn't changed? As for the thread topic -DG have stayed pretty on-point over the years. Their fluff has been expanded upon, but there's never been (as far as I know), a change that would retcon anything. So we know that all Death Guard cult marines, are just that - Death Guard cult marines. No such thing as a non-Plague Marine in the Death Guard.


Anywho - back OT-

Suggestions for the heavy support slot? As someone else pointed out, Havocs aren't really fluffy for DG - this was discussed in a little detail earlier in the thread, but would we want access to something like Oblits? I can't think of a fluff reason why not, but I still think they need a points decrease. Give the whole "Mortarion doesn't believe in troops carrying the big-guns thing", I'd kind of like to see some kind of customizable gun platform that could be a stand-in as our equivalent of Havocs. Probably a new Demon Engine, but one that's geared completely towards ranged combat. Thoughts?

1. Death Guard were a real army. Just because you didn't have pointless gakky support characters until now doesn't mean they weren't. Spoiler Alert: not everything needs a SUPER SPECIAL RULE to denote being part of an army. It's that obsession that turned White Scars into all Bikers or Blood Angels being on Jump Packs ALL THE TIME and such.
2. The codex is fluffy or well written now compared to the representation before? LOL no it isn't and don't pretend it is. The codex was barely functional when released at the beginning of the edition!
3. Also you don't get access to Dark Herecticus. Either you're a CSM army or you aren't. This is the type of "have your cake and eat it too" attitude that creates the bloat of rules we got now.
4. Except Cult Marines are troops for their respective Legions. What're you whining about?
5. The point is they really aren't unified really as Legions until extremely specific points for bad fluff writing.
6. Oh so we can pick and choose which fluff is disowned huh? Yeah nice try. It was written Space Marines use Multilasers so too bad, where's my tabletop representation of that? If you're that hellbent on following fluff = tabletop the option should be there period. It's completely either-or.
7. Havocs are used. Mortation not liking something does not equal it not happening. It works fine in 30k, it had a variant in 3rd (which was just extra Special Weapons but it still existed), it worked for 4th-7th, and NOW all the sudden it's not okay huh?

To sum up slayer's irrational rant: Codices from a niche game made by FW are more relevant to how death guard should work than the actual death guard codex. There is literally no way to argue that, so let's just not.

Can we now please ignore him and get back to topic?

To all that say that death guard should be rerolled in the CSM codex, let me ask you this: Do you really think there is ANY unit in there that woudnt be better off with another legion/god?

We are a crappy codex and you think that returning in a meh codex would help us. It wont. We will be even more unused because the other factions in it would be able to do what we do but better.

strigops wrote:
To all that say that death guard should be rerolled in the CSM codex, let me ask you this: Do you really think there is ANY unit in there that woudnt be better off with another legion/god?

We are a crappy codex and you think that returning in a meh codex would help us. It wont. We will be even more unused because the other factions in it would be able to do what we do but better.

I disagree on the rerolling thing, however , i do that because i 'd do it differently, which would allow for a broader baseline.
I'd also do the same for TS. Btw.

However from a unit standpoint the "potential"(depends vastly how it is done) access to some of the shinyies of CSM might do something,however the truth is, even if rolled back, you'd not play DG but a soup with DG content.
The only decent thing then would be that you'd only have to buy 1 book.

But that's a small consolation for units which generally are less effective and beeing in a codex that get's innefective as soon as CP's run dry.
So yes, regardless if rolled into 1 book or left seperately atm there'd be no real improvement either way.

Wouldn't combining DG into CSM just be the same essentially as we have now? I already can have access to everything in the CSM book. I just need to take a CSM detachment. I'm forever casting dark hereticus powers on my DG (e.g. warp timing Morty) and nonchalantly using their strategems (e.g. chaos familiar).

 lare2 wrote:
Wouldn't combining DG into CSM just be the same essentially as we have now? I already can have access to everything in the CSM book. I just need to take a CSM detachment. I'm forever casting dark hereticus powers on my DG (e.g. warp timing Morty) and nonchalantly using their strategems (e.g. chaos familiar).

It's more that you could run DG inherent to the CSM dex via addendum of 5+++ and +1 T aswell as inexorable advance as a trait and limit/grant access to specific units which Atm are not there for DG for reasons unkown to players.

It wouldn't change much, you'd just had to buy less books

 lare2 wrote:
Wouldn't combining DG into CSM just be the same essentially as we have now? I already can have access to everything in the CSM book. I just need to take a CSM detachment. I'm forever casting dark hereticus powers on my DG (e.g. warp timing Morty) and nonchalantly using their strategems (e.g. chaos familiar).

I made a list somewhere, if you are interested, I can repost it.
If you just take the current DG rules and put them back into codex CSM as equals to World Eaters and Emperor's Children in the same way they rolled Black Templars back into the marines codex, the only thing lost would be our Psychic Discipline, which is inferior in every way to the hereticus discipline. In return, we would get a ton of stratagems, dozens of units, a better psychic discipline in addition to a second one that can benefit our daemon engines.

While having a properly maintained dedicated codex is definitely preferable to getting rolled back in, at this point in time (before our PA is released), being part of the CSM codex instead of having our own would be all upside. Which is basically a sign that GW screwed up big time.

I guess I wouldn't mind either way. On the one hand I could use my raptors, bikes, havocs, possessed and rapiers in a DG detachment again without losing boni, on the other hand the 30 cultists + sorcerer and lord from a purge bataillon to use these units aren't that bad.
I guess it could suck for the other legions, though, if a third of the codex is filled with units only 1 of the 15 factions in the book can use...

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I guess I wouldn't mind either way. On the one hand I could use my raptors, bikes, havocs, possessed and rapiers in a DG detachment again without losing boni, on the other hand the 30 cultists + sorcerer and lord from a purge bataillon to use these units aren't that bad.
I guess it could suck for the other legions, though, if a third of the codex is filled with units only 1 of the 15 factions in the book can use...

Tbh if they get rolled in I'd expect that to stop being the case, giving daemon engines and some of the less death guard-y characters back over to undivided with the caveat they must be nurgle seems reasonable.

While having a properly maintained dedicated codex is definitely preferable to getting rolled back in, at this point in time (before our PA is released), being part of the CSM codex instead of having our own would be all upside. Which is basically a sign that GW screwed up big time.

The problem with that is, it's a permanent fix to a very temporary problem. Also, most of that could be solved (even in a PA update) by simply saying, DG now have access to Dark Hereticus, and XYZ powers and strats are now re-worded to work on Keywords:"Death Guard, Heretic Astartes, Nurgle" etc., so fix some of the broken synergies and just update their strats.

A big part of the issue is that we have a codex that was high-mid-tier when released, but has not aged as well. An actual codex update would correct that quickly. Roll them back in and kiss any chance of that goodby. You probably will also not get a lot of the synergies you want when they do that. We aren't suffering from anything that even a minor codex update couldn't fix. I think the issue is that, while it used to be common for books to not get updated for entire editions even, a book that's 3 years old gets long in the tooth faster than it use to.

Meh, what goes around comes around. Our Codex was solid when it was released. We were ahead of the curve and I remember winning pretty consistently in those heady days. We were top dogs.

Now we're behind the times and the meta has left us lurking. This is nothing a new book wouldn't fix. We don't need to be rolled back into CSMs to fix our problems.

Exact same thing happens time and again to all armies. It's just our turn at the minute to be bottom of the pecking order. We'll be back on top form without the drastic need to merge with CSM again.