OK, having looked through a lot of the PA series fluff/Echoes of Awakening, much of it hinted at the rise of the Necrons, something we now know to be a reality. Throughout, these little stories have heralded new models, updates etc. However, not present, but also hinted extensively throughout the series was the presence of the Emperor's Children. They're in both Faith and Fury and Ritual of the Damned, I don't own Blood of Baal, Greater Good or Saga of the Beast so any help there? Pretty sure I heard others say more stories exist.
Anyway, I do believe we will see them fairly early in the rlease schedule, and possibly Fulgrim among them, maybe at Christmas (they did state something big at/by Christmas in one of the streams).
edit: And if these stories continue to provide info for future releases, it bodes well for Eldar, seeing new kits for Scorpions, Warp Spiders and Shining Spears.
bullyboy wrote: OK, having looked through a lot of the PA series fluff/Echoes of Awakening, much of it hinted at the rise of the Necrons, something we now know to be a reality. Throughout, these little stories have heralded new models, updates etc. However, not present, but also hinted extensively throughout the series was the presence of the Emperor's Children. They're in both Faith and Fury and Ritual of the Damned, I don't own Blood of Baal, Greater Good or Saga of the Beast so any help there? Pretty sure I heard others say more stories exist.
Anyway, I do believe we will see them fairly early in the rlease schedule, and possibly Fulgrim among them, maybe at Christmas (they did state something big at/by Christmas in one of the streams).
edit: And if these stories continue to provide info for future releases, it bodes well for Eldar, seeing new kits for Scorpions, Warp Spiders and Shining Spears.
Slaanesh be praised if it they see a release this version...
I know a lot of people hate primarchs being brought back, but still I'll be a little bit sad if Fulgrim comes back before Russ or Lion. Or any loyalist that feasibly could come back.
Fulgrim was teased throughout most books of 8th Edition, right from the start. That's why I thought Emperor's Children would be released pretty soon. They're still not here though, which makes me hesitant to think they'll come soon now. I wouldn't mind it. Every faction is saturated with PA rules now, they shouldn't restart all the Codizes again, if they branch out some of the minor factions I'm cool with it.
Yeah, did the same with Fallen through 8e too. Teased that there was a big plot to unfold there (which is a big part of what fueled rumours of the Lion returning), but again nothing yet has come of it.
If they followed through on the Fallen stuff, one of the most exciting prospects would be a model for Marbas, the lion headed Fallen daemon prince! Could imagine that being awesome.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Every faction is saturated with PA rules now, they shouldn't restart all the Codizes again, if they branch out some of the minor factions I'm cool with it.
Some of the factions basically just got a name generator from PA
I'd love to see an EC release, and I'm sure Fulgrim would look amazing. That said, I agree that there should probably be another loyalist Primarch first.
The story line of primogeniter is all about some old HHEC trying to rebuild the legion which is necessary cannon really to support a codex release. Haven’t finished this series of books but it just supports the idea that GW are creating a story arc that allows them to release EC as a legion.
bullyboy wrote: OK, having looked through a lot of the PA series fluff/Echoes of Awakening, much of it hinted at the rise of the Necrons, something we now know to be a reality. Throughout, these little stories have heralded new models, updates etc. However, not present, but also hinted extensively throughout the series was the presence of the Emperor's Children. They're in both Faith and Fury and Ritual of the Damned, I don't own Blood of Baal, Greater Good or Saga of the Beast so any help there? Pretty sure I heard others say more stories exist.
Anyway, I do believe we will see them fairly early in the rlease schedule, and possibly Fulgrim among them, maybe at Christmas (they did state something big at/by Christmas in one of the streams).
edit: And if these stories continue to provide info for future releases, it bodes well for Eldar, seeing new kits for Scorpions, Warp Spiders and Shining Spears.
It would be nicer to get another loyalist primarch to even up the score, before we get a third traitor primarch.
It would be nicer to get another loyalist primarch to even up the score, before we get a third traitor primarch.
What do you mean? Guilliman already outnumbers them 1 : 2!
I have to admit with all the fabious bile books and the inclusion of fulgrim (edit) in the last one I'm half expecting the emperors children to be the chaos marine poster boys of 9th.
but at the same time i wonder if fulcrum might come in as a demons character rather than a CSM one as in the fluff he does keep saying he's done with the legion
Stux wrote: I know a lot of people hate primarchs being brought back, but still I'll be a little bit sad if Fulgrim comes back before Russ or Lion. Or any loyalist that feasibly could come back.
I think Vulkan makes the most sense on the loyalist side.
bullyboy wrote: OK, having looked through a lot of the PA series fluff/Echoes of Awakening, much of it hinted at the rise of the Necrons, something we now know to be a reality. Throughout, these little stories have heralded new models, updates etc. However, not present, but also hinted extensively throughout the series was the presence of the Emperor's Children. They're in both Faith and Fury and Ritual of the Damned, I don't own Blood of Baal, Greater Good or Saga of the Beast so any help there? Pretty sure I heard others say more stories exist.
Anyway, I do believe we will see them fairly early in the rlease schedule, and possibly Fulgrim among them, maybe at Christmas (they did state something big at/by Christmas in one of the streams).
edit: And if these stories continue to provide info for future releases, it bodes well for Eldar, seeing new kits for Scorpions, Warp Spiders and Shining Spears.
It would be nicer to get another loyalist primarch to even up the score, before we get a third traitor primarch.
I'd tend to disagree, Things should go from bad(magnus) to worse(morty) to horrible(fulgrim) to absolute SHTF(Angron).
Now I would say that when either the Impetuous Child or the Angry dude come back, another loyalist should return. I like the idea of being outnumbered/outclassesd and a heroic return of Russ, Vulkan, Jaghtai, etc.
Last thing we need is the most chaosy primarch coming back....The worst traitor of them all....the Lion. he can just continue his little kittykat nap in perpetuity. Or better yet, be purged by the Righteous fire of true Loyal Sons of the Emperor.
It would be nicer to get another loyalist primarch to even up the score, before we get a third traitor primarch.
What do you mean? Guilliman already outnumbers them 1 : 2!
I have to admit with all the fabious bile books and the inclusion of fulgrim (edit) in the last one I'm half expecting the emperors children to be the chaos marine poster boys of 9th.
but at the same time i wonder if fulcrum might come in as a demons character rather than a CSM one as in the fluff he does keep saying he's done with the legion
I like this idea and it would give the deamons codex a real character that isn’t essentially a greatest demon of a god. And the EC legion are mega angry with fulgrim and think he led them down a path that sacrificed them for his own gain
harlokin wrote: I actually think that The Lion would be the perfect antidote to Guilliman and Cawl.
I literally could not tell you any single trait of The Lion beyond the fact that his name is Lion El'Johnson and he is the chapter master of the dark angels, so....sure?
Honestly, it's like that for most loyalist primarchs. They all kind of blur together for me - I assume Mr. Raven Q. Guard is a bit emo, and I have seen memes of a golden man who likes to reinforce ground who I assume is Fistimus Imperio.
Is Lion El'Johnson the 1980s macho man randy savage that his name and title generally suggest that he should be? If not, do you figure there is narrative leeway to retcon him to have taken up that pastime sometime in the past 10,000 years of canonical time?
I’d like to see a third, and possibly fourth traitor primarch before we see another loyalist. Guilliman seems to be doing pretty well vs. the current two on the scene.
I’d love an Emperor’s Children release, I want noise marines that don’t have to wedge arms onto bodies that weren’t designed to take them. I’d also like some sword duellists that aren’t just a bunch of CSM with bolt pistols and chainswords.
I literally could not tell you any single trait of The Lion beyond the fact that his name is Lion El'Johnson and he is the chapter master of the dark angels, so....sure?
He's sort of a cross between Hannibal Barca and Richard Dawkins...maybe.
Is Lion El'Johnson the 1980s macho man randy savage that his name and title generally suggest that he should be? If not, do you figure there is narrative leeway to retcon him to have taken up that pastime sometime in the past 10,000 years of canonical time?
I'm sure it's absolutely possible, and should be done. He's named after Lionel Johnson, a boyfriend of Oscar Wilde, who wrote a poem called The Dark Angel. The Lion has apparently spent the last 10'000 sleeping under The Rock (named after a gay bar that used to be near GWHQ), but that's not to say that wrestling couldn't have happened.
Stux wrote: I know a lot of people hate primarchs being brought back, but still I'll be a little bit sad if Fulgrim comes back before Russ or Lion. Or any loyalist that feasibly could come back.
I think Vulkan makes the most sense on the loyalist side.
All 3 of those we've mentioned have merit to be honest.
Lion is literally just waiting for a plot hook to wake up, and I could see a lot of narrative potential in a power struggle between him and Guilliman, more so than you would have with Russ or Vulkan.
Not that G could control Russ, but I dont think Russ would be that bothered about being Lord Commander.
harlokin wrote: I actually think that The Lion would be the perfect antidote to Guilliman and Cawl.
I literally could not tell you any single trait of The Lion beyond the fact that his name is Lion El'Johnson and he is the chapter master of the dark angels, so....sure?
Honestly, it's like that for most loyalist primarchs. They all kind of blur together for me - I assume Mr. Raven Q. Guard is a bit emo, and I have seen memes of a golden man who likes to reinforce ground who I assume is Fistimus Imperio.
Is Lion El'Johnson the 1980s macho man randy savage that his name and title generally suggest that he should be? If not, do you figure there is narrative leeway to retcon him to have taken up that pastime sometime in the past 10,000 years of canonical time?
The lion is probably the single best warrior of all the primarchs and under his command the DA would be the single most the Powerful fighting force that the imperium has. This was the point of the first legion, an unstoppable fighting force with a singular determination on victory. All other legions are deviation of the first.
harlokin wrote: I actually think that The Lion would be the perfect antidote to Guilliman and Cawl.
I literally could not tell you any single trait of The Lion beyond the fact that his name is Lion El'Johnson and he is the chapter master of the dark angels, so....sure?
Honestly, it's like that for most loyalist primarchs. They all kind of blur together for me - I assume Mr. Raven Q. Guard is a bit emo, and I have seen memes of a golden man who likes to reinforce ground who I assume is Fistimus Imperio.
Is Lion El'Johnson the 1980s macho man randy savage that his name and title generally suggest that he should be? If not, do you figure there is narrative leeway to retcon him to have taken up that pastime sometime in the past 10,000 years of canonical time?
The lion is probably the single best warrior of all the primarchs and under his command the DA would be the single most the Powerful fighting force that the imperium has. This was the point of the first legion, an unstoppable fighting force with a singular determination on victory. All other legions are deviation of the first.
The neat thing with The Lion is that, although a fantastic general and dualist, he is somewhat lacking in charisma and social awareness. Due to lacking social awareness, he is unaware that he lacks charisma.
As such, he is likely to think he is the obvious candidate to lead the Imperium, which can lead to some tasty conflicts with Guilliman. He never really understood why Horus was picked over him for Warmaster.
bullyboy wrote: OK, having looked through a lot of the PA series fluff/Echoes of Awakening, much of it hinted at the rise of the Necrons, something we now know to be a reality. Throughout, these little stories have heralded new models, updates etc. However, not present, but also hinted extensively throughout the series was the presence of the Emperor's Children. They're in both Faith and Fury and Ritual of the Damned, I don't own Blood of Baal, Greater Good or Saga of the Beast so any help there? Pretty sure I heard others say more stories exist.
Anyway, I do believe we will see them fairly early in the rlease schedule, and possibly Fulgrim among them, maybe at Christmas (they did state something big at/by Christmas in one of the streams).
edit: And if these stories continue to provide info for future releases, it bodes well for Eldar, seeing new kits for Scorpions, Warp Spiders and Shining Spears.
If this is the case for Craftworld, GW already missed a big opportunity for Shining Spears. Folks who wanted them with updated Windrider models ordered 3d printed spear arms that fit perfectly with the Windrider kit.
Can I just ask why everyone thinks there should be another loyalist primarch before Fulgrim?
Is it because of fluff? Because there are plenty of active chaos primarchs doing the rounds, and far less loyalists.
Is it because of the crunch? Becuase 8th edition more than anything else has to be understood as a massive shot in the arm for forces of the Imperium. They have gained so many new units and powerful rules it's untrue, whilst Chaos has languished in a few skew lists, whilst most of their units aren't seen in competitive play.
Is it just a matter of 1 vs 2? Why should that matter? What better way to ruin the tension of 8th's tenuous optimism than by bringing back yet another saviour of mankind, giving the Imperium built-in redundancy. No longer does the fate of humankind rest on one pair of shoulders, but two. Or hell, three, why not call it four. It's a totally different narrative at that point.
The only way I could see it working is ifthe Lion's return presages an empire-wide civil war. That could work...
Don’t forget there’s a fulgrim clone stuck in a necron basement somewhere. The EC resent fulgrim on his demon prince form. I’d rather see snake fulgrim in the demons codex and the cloned phoenician in the EC codex. Fabius experiments prove that fulgrim will always turn to choas but his path could still be different from the snake fulgrim
I think from a game stand point a loyal primarch is much harder to design than a daemon primarch.
A daemon primarch will almost always be a huge beatstick that plows through the battlefield like a force of nature. Stick enough strats, weapons and psy to a datasheet and he will do that easily. Fulgrim would be super-fast, many attacks, psychic powers and a sword of primarch-slaying with some sort of nasty poison effect. Done.
A loyalist primarch though? Unless we are talking about (a potentially half-mutated) Russ, most of them would be more like duelists or battlefield commanders, something that doesn't work too well despite GW constantly trying. Gulliman already provides everyone with the bestest auras, and I'm sure that Imperial Fists would want Dorn to feel as different to Gulliman as Mortarion does to Magnus.
Because of that, my vote would be the Lion. The Dark Angels codex provides enough space for tactical shenanigans with their wings to have a tactical genius that feels different from Gulliman.
mrFickle wrote: Don’t forget there’s a fulgrim clone stuck in a necron basement somewhere. The EC resent fulgrim on his demon prince form. I’d rather see snake fulgrim in the demons codex and the cloned phoenician in the EC codex. Fabius experiments prove that fulgrim will always turn to choas but his path could still be different from the snake fulgrim
They very clearly don't resent him, read Manflayer. If/when he returns he should be part of any prospective EC book. We'll never see anything more on the Fulgrim clone again, nor should we
I haven’t started Manflayer yet but in Primogeniter it sounds like all the remaining senior members of EC feel used and abandoned by fulgrim. Looking forward to reading manflayer
I'm actually hoping they throw us a curveball and just release Perturabo instead. Sure his legion does not actually follow any of the Chaos gods, nor worship undivided like Lorgar, but I'd like a mister generic traitor Primarch. Fulgrim and Angron would make for more impressive models I'm sure and that's why they will probably come first but I'm a big fan of mister grumpy myself.
It's so annoying they did thye Deathguard right and the Thousand Sons then just leave the Emperor's Children and World Eaters out in the cold. Naturally as an Emperors children player this annoys me but also just the lopsided incompleteness ov it is irritating. Supposedly Fulgrims miniature kit is done, manufactured back to them and in boxes in warehouses awaiting a proper release opp. So being the miniature is su7pposedly on their sheleves gathering dust you'd think they'd wanna make that money. I don't know if I'm right about this but Khorne also seems the most popular chaos faction and so you'd thinlk they'd want to cash in there too. By all means bring back Jaghatai, The Lion, Russ, that'd be great but damn guys finish what you started, you can't just do half the ruinous 4! Is it me or is it the Emperors Children faction having their chain yanked the most here. Our primarch is designed and ready fopr sale but not sold. Our faction got a refresh at AOS BUT NOT HERE. Spotted everywhere in the sector except ON TABLETOPS? I love GW, been in this since 13 and I'm 42 now, But come on guys we know the realms ov chaos hard covers are prolly the high water mark for chaos coolness releases, no future endeavor will eclipse it likely, but like could you may be at least finish this current cycle ov releases for us?? And idk maybe give us our 1st capt Eidolon who still likes his legion and is relatively useful versus Fabius who hates us and Lucius who hates himself? Loving everything about 9th edition, I'm excited for the games future but I ain't gonna lie I'll sleep better at night once Khorne and Slaanesh are being repped as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you think about it having Fabius Bile as our Emperors Children character makes about as much sense as having Iskander Khayon ov the recent Black Legion books be the T Sons special character and no Ahriman.
Fabius Bile is not the EC character, he doesn't have the Keyword and has his own faction trait instead.
There's only Lucius. And since he's the last CSM character in failcast chances aren't bad for an EC codex.
Stux wrote: As such, he is likely to think he is the obvious candidate to lead the Imperium, which can lead to some tasty conflicts with Guilliman. He never really understood why Horus was picked over him for Warmaster.
Why people keep repeating this over and over? First, they reconciled. That plot point is done. Second, if he wanted title of Warmaster, Guilliman would throw signup papers in his face and told him to start yesterday. It's much easier to work on political reform when you have someone capable of handling the boring military stuff, especially in the other segmentums as Rob can be only in one place at once.
Castozor wrote: I'm actually hoping they throw us a curveball and just release Perturabo instead.
This. Or Khan. Anyone but boring and predictable five.
What benefit other than I and presumably other people like him? If they go all out with an IW release there is no reason they can't add some units that were not there before same with DG and TS. Why should only the God-aligned legions get their chance to shine? Because pre-codex they too only had 1 unique unit and that was it.
mrFickle wrote: What benefit would a curveball like perturabo be. What units would you buy to creat an army led by him?
Any standard CSM stuff. Which honestly would be a poor strategy on GWs part. They'd mostly move start collecting boxes, secondary market Shadowspear (oblits and daemon engines) and bits from last year's Holiday army deal (mostly marines and havocs)
Angron or Fulgrim would help shift new kits at full price. And the focus would be on armies that can function a bit differently from the general codex.
Thousand Sons and Death Guard "needed" codexes in a way that the other chaos legions do not - simply put, they can't be done with the CSM codex because these legions don't have Chaos Space Marines, their basic troopers having all been dusted or plagued.
This isn't to say the other cult legions won't or shouldn't get books - certainly, a dedicated Emperor's Children army has a lot of opportunities to create distinctive and uniquely EC models, especially if they lean in on the old glam metal hedonism of the old noise marines.
Still, I wouldn't prioritize them simply because they're cult legions. They don't need it as much TS and DG did, and you could make similar arguments for the other legions having their own distinctive playstyles (a Word Bearers book that leans heavily on cultists and has Exalted Dark Apostles for example).
Perturabo is a funny idea. Interestingly Iron Warriors have the largest close to their fluff model support of all legions if you count Havocs, Vindicators, Obliterators, Mutilators and all the Daemon engines as primarily fitting for them. I don't think Perturabo is probable though, they seem to have forgotten him. And we still don't know how they treat undivided Daemon Princes, since they basically did away with that Mark.
The idea that TS & DG "needed" books more is not a good argument. Even if we accept that EC & WE aren't as unique as TS & DG, they are still heavily divergent in terms of playstyle from baseline vanilla CSM in a way that e.g. Word Bearers are not, which I say as a Word Bearers player, and aren't represented particularly well by the main book, just like pre-7th era DG (e.g. Nurgle Biker spam). VA + F&F already let us play e.g. Word Bearers in that fluffy 3.5 style manner. We can't, conversely, replicate EC from that era with their previous ability to have Sonic Terminators & Predators, etc. The four cult Legions are the best place to start precisely because their dedication to their respective deities makes them unique when compared to the other 5 Traitor Legions
Marshal Loss wrote: The idea that TS & DG "needed" books more is not a good argument. Even if we accept that EC & WE aren't as unique as TS & DG, they are still heavily divergent in terms of playstyle from baseline vanilla CSM in a way that e.g. Word Bearers are not, which I say as a Word Bearers player, and aren't represented particularly well by the main book, just like pre-7th era DG (e.g. Nurgle Biker spam). VA + F&F already let us play e.g. Word Bearers in that fluffy 3.5 style manner. We can't, conversely, replicate EC from that era with their previous ability to have Sonic Terminators & Predators, etc. The four cult Legions are the best place to start precisely because their dedication to their respective deities makes them unique when compared to the other 5 Traitor Legions
If we have EC and WE then all 4 gods are represented and BL is you option for chaos undivided.
The lion is probably the single best warrior of all the primarchs
Primarchs must really suck then. Lion really struggled against a single chaos marine. (Well. not even a full marine, really.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: Can I just ask why everyone thinks there should be another loyalist primarch before Fulgrim?
Is it because of fluff? Because there are plenty of active chaos primarchs doing the rounds, and far less loyalists.
Is it because of the crunch? Becuase 8th edition more than anything else has to be understood as a massive shot in the arm for forces of the Imperium. They have gained so many new units and powerful rules it's untrue, whilst Chaos has languished in a few skew lists, whilst most of their units aren't seen in competitive play.
Is it just a matter of 1 vs 2? Why should that matter? What better way to ruin the tension of 8th's tenuous optimism than by bringing back yet another saviour of mankind, giving the Imperium built-in redundancy. No longer does the fate of humankind rest on one pair of shoulders, but two. Or hell, three, why not call it four. It's a totally different narrative at that point.
The only way I could see it working is ifthe Lion's return presages an empire-wide civil war. That could work...
Because people cannot conceive anyone besides a Primarch having agency and they want turn 40K into HH no matter how absurd that would be.
If you ask me they should kill the one loyalist Primarch they have and never bring back more. Chaos can have theirs, they always existed in the fluff and them being active might make Chaos seem like some sort of a threat for a change.
The lion is probably the single best warrior of all the primarchs
Primarchs must really suck then. Lion really struggled against a single chaos marine. (Well. not even a full marine, really.)
If you're referencing Luther, IIRC he is hopped up on Chaos juice at the climactic Caliban duel - it's a mini Chaos-Horus vs. Emperor scenario, though neither DA character reaches those power levels.
Of course, this may change if it gets looked at post-HH by the Black Library...
The lion is probably the single best warrior of all the primarchs
Primarchs must really suck then. Lion really struggled against a single chaos marine. (Well. not even a full marine, really.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: Can I just ask why everyone thinks there should be another loyalist primarch before Fulgrim?
Is it because of fluff? Because there are plenty of active chaos primarchs doing the rounds, and far less loyalists.
Is it because of the crunch? Becuase 8th edition more than anything else has to be understood as a massive shot in the arm for forces of the Imperium. They have gained so many new units and powerful rules it's untrue, whilst Chaos has languished in a few skew lists, whilst most of their units aren't seen in competitive play.
Is it just a matter of 1 vs 2? Why should that matter? What better way to ruin the tension of 8th's tenuous optimism than by bringing back yet another saviour of mankind, giving the Imperium built-in redundancy. No longer does the fate of humankind rest on one pair of shoulders, but two. Or hell, three, why not call it four. It's a totally different narrative at that point.
The only way I could see it working is ifthe Lion's return presages an empire-wide civil war. That could work...
Because people cannot conceive anyone besides a Primarch having agency and they want turn 40K into HH no matter how absurd that would be.
If you ask me they should kill the one loyalist Primarch they have and never bring back more. Chaos can have theirs, they always existed in the fluff and them being active might make Chaos seem like some sort of a threat for a change.
Interesting. The only reason I'd like to see another primarch is to crack the imperial monolith, bring in someone else who wants to go in a different direction and create additional tensions.
The problem with 'chaos as a threat' is it runs into the setting premise. It can't ever win or there isn't a setting or game anymore. Internal divisions are far more interesting.
If you're referencing Luther, IIRC he is hopped up on Chaos juice at the climactic Caliban duel - it's a mini Chaos-Horus vs. Emperor scenario, though neither DA character reaches those power levels.
If Chaos can boost a half-marine to Primarch-level why hasn't the Imperium been overrun a long time ago? Those CSM Chosen could use a Primarch statline!
The lion is probably the single best warrior of all the primarchs
Primarchs must really suck then. Lion really struggled against a single chaos marine. (Well. not even a full marine, really.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: Can I just ask why everyone thinks there should be another loyalist primarch before Fulgrim?
Is it because of fluff? Because there are plenty of active chaos primarchs doing the rounds, and far less loyalists.
Is it because of the crunch? Becuase 8th edition more than anything else has to be understood as a massive shot in the arm for forces of the Imperium. They have gained so many new units and powerful rules it's untrue, whilst Chaos has languished in a few skew lists, whilst most of their units aren't seen in competitive play.
Is it just a matter of 1 vs 2? Why should that matter? What better way to ruin the tension of 8th's tenuous optimism than by bringing back yet another saviour of mankind, giving the Imperium built-in redundancy. No longer does the fate of humankind rest on one pair of shoulders, but two. Or hell, three, why not call it four. It's a totally different narrative at that point.
The only way I could see it working is ifthe Lion's return presages an empire-wide civil war. That could work...
Because people cannot conceive anyone besides a Primarch having agency and they want turn 40K into HH no matter how absurd that would be.
If you ask me they should kill the one loyalist Primarch they have and never bring back more. Chaos can have theirs, they always existed in the fluff and them being active might make Chaos seem like some sort of a threat for a change.
Interesting. The only reason I'd like to see another primarch is to crack the imperial monolith, bring in someone else who wants to go in a different direction and create additional tensions.
Right. And that sounds interesting. But you're falling to the exact 'cannot conceive anyone besides a Primarch having agency' trap that I mentioned. You don't need a Primarch for what you describe, and in fact it works way better if that isn't the cause of the tension. Conservative elements of the Imperium fed up with Guilliman's reforms and other meddling are a perfect foil. Inquisitors, the Ecclesiarch etc.
The problem with 'chaos as a threat' is it runs into the setting premise. It can't ever win or there isn't a setting or game anymore. Internal divisions are far more interesting.
Same thing as chaos being 'sealed up,' really.
It deosn't need to win. But now they're just wimps that hang around the Eye of Terror. Their dreaded 'Veterans of the Long War' are no better than an outdated loyalist rookie and are easily outclassed by the Primaris. The Legions retaining their Primarchs was one thing they had over the loyalists, but now they don't have even that. Imperium rules most of the galaxy, has better tech, better troops and now have their own demigods too. WHFB worked for decades with Chaos being clearly more powerful that the Empire.
Castozor wrote: I'm actually hoping they throw us a curveball and just release Perturabo instead. Sure his legion does not actually follow any of the Chaos gods, nor worship undivided like Lorgar, but I'd like a mister generic traitor Primarch. Fulgrim and Angron would make for more impressive models I'm sure and that's why they will probably come first but I'm a big fan of mister grumpy myself.
Pert or Alpharius would be a really interesting release.
A box set with two, one loyal, one traitor would be great for a Q4 release.
The lion is probably the single best warrior of all the primarchs
Primarchs must really suck then. Lion really struggled against a single chaos marine. (Well. not even a full marine, really.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: Can I just ask why everyone thinks there should be another loyalist primarch before Fulgrim?
Is it because of fluff? Because there are plenty of active chaos primarchs doing the rounds, and far less loyalists.
Is it because of the crunch? Becuase 8th edition more than anything else has to be understood as a massive shot in the arm for forces of the Imperium. They have gained so many new units and powerful rules it's untrue, whilst Chaos has languished in a few skew lists, whilst most of their units aren't seen in competitive play.
Is it just a matter of 1 vs 2? Why should that matter? What better way to ruin the tension of 8th's tenuous optimism than by bringing back yet another saviour of mankind, giving the Imperium built-in redundancy. No longer does the fate of humankind rest on one pair of shoulders, but two. Or hell, three, why not call it four. It's a totally different narrative at that point.
The only way I could see it working is ifthe Lion's return presages an empire-wide civil war. That could work...
Because people cannot conceive anyone besides a Primarch having agency and they want turn 40K into HH no matter how absurd that would be.
If you ask me they should kill the one loyalist Primarch they have and never bring back more. Chaos can have theirs, they always existed in the fluff and them being active might make Chaos seem like some sort of a threat for a change.
The emperor's sons are probably the best known characters in the game. Of course they're going to bring them all back, the whole reason they invented an eldar god of the dead is to resurrect the ones they killed off so as to make nice new toys for them when the mood hits them.
Castozor wrote: I'm actually hoping they throw us a curveball and just release Perturabo instead. Sure his legion does not actually follow any of the Chaos gods, nor worship undivided like Lorgar, but I'd like a mister generic traitor Primarch. Fulgrim and Angron would make for more impressive models I'm sure and that's why they will probably come first but I'm a big fan of mister grumpy myself.
Pert or Alpharius would be a really interesting release.
A box set with two, one loyal, one traitor would be great for a Q4 release.
The lion is probably the single best warrior of all the primarchs
Primarchs must really suck then. Lion really struggled against a single chaos marine. (Well. not even a full marine, really.)
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grouchoben wrote: Can I just ask why everyone thinks there should be another loyalist primarch before Fulgrim?
Is it because of fluff? Because there are plenty of active chaos primarchs doing the rounds, and far less loyalists.
Is it because of the crunch? Becuase 8th edition more than anything else has to be understood as a massive shot in the arm for forces of the Imperium. They have gained so many new units and powerful rules it's untrue, whilst Chaos has languished in a few skew lists, whilst most of their units aren't seen in competitive play.
Is it just a matter of 1 vs 2? Why should that matter? What better way to ruin the tension of 8th's tenuous optimism than by bringing back yet another saviour of mankind, giving the Imperium built-in redundancy. No longer does the fate of humankind rest on one pair of shoulders, but two. Or hell, three, why not call it four. It's a totally different narrative at that point.
The only way I could see it working is ifthe Lion's return presages an empire-wide civil war. That could work...
Because people cannot conceive anyone besides a Primarch having agency and they want turn 40K into HH no matter how absurd that would be.
If you ask me they should kill the one loyalist Primarch they have and never bring back more. Chaos can have theirs, they always existed in the fluff and them being active might make Chaos seem like some sort of a threat for a change.
The emperor's sons are probably the best known characters in the game. Of course they're going to bring them all back, the whole reason they invented an eldar god of the dead is to resurrect the ones they killed off so as to make nice new toys for them when the mood hits them.
But the HH reference is an important point. The HH was the backdrop to 40k and if they bring back the primarch it will be rubbish if the just bring HH to 41st millennium. They need to tell the next part of the story of the primarchs. As someone else has said they should not be total unity and probably some out right succession and formation of independent systems.
Interesting idea- two Imeria of man. Conveniently, the galaxy is at present, still cut in half by Cicatrix, so the geography to split the Imperium is there.
We would just need a charismatic leader in the other half to declare Guilliman a traitor, and the stage is set.
A primarch could do it, or not; as others have said, it could be any non-Ultramarine Imperial faction(s). The Church is a strong candidate, as is the Inquisition. But I think another primarch might be a cleaner choice- I don't want a civil war WITHIN the Sisterhood, so they go all behind or all against.
Truth be told though, I've never really liked internal conflict in space drama. You've got a whole universe of aliens, and you want to focus on beef between humans? Seems like defeating the purpose of setting a story in space.
The last thing Xenos players want is another Imperium vs Imperium narrative. It isn't a much better narrative for chaos either, unless they ultimately end up corrupting one side or the other.
Voss wrote:
Interesting. The only reason I'd like to see another primarch is to crack the imperial monolith, bring in someone else who wants to go in a different direction and create additional tensions.
Right. And that sounds interesting. But you're falling to the exact 'cannot conceive anyone besides a Primarch having agency' trap that I mentioned. You don't need a Primarch for what you describe, and in fact it works way better if that isn't the cause of the tension. Conservative elements of the Imperium fed up with Guilliman's reforms and other meddling are a perfect foil. Inquisitors, the Ecclesiarch etc.
I guess you can call that a trap- I'm not sure I'd say anyone in 40k has anything resembling agency.. I'm not sure how you represent the 'conservative elements' on the table though, or the galactic scale of such a split.
Sure Cardinal Random could do it, but it begs the question of how they survive more than 5 minutes, or why anyone cares.
It requires building a whole new human faction from scratch, and I'm not sure anyone really wants to see that.
The problem with 'chaos as a threat' is it runs into the setting premise. It can't ever win or there isn't a setting or game anymore. Internal divisions are far more interesting.
Same thing as chaos being 'sealed up,' really.
It deosn't need to win. But now they're just wimps that hang around the Eye of Terror. Their dreaded 'Veterans of the Long War' are no better than an outdated loyalist rookie and are easily outclassed by the Primaris. The Legions retaining their Primarchs was one thing they had over the loyalists, but now they don't have even that. Imperium rules most of the galaxy, has better tech, better troops and now have their own demigods too. WHFB worked for decades with Chaos being clearly more powerful that the Empire.
Well, current fluff is they're not just hanging about the Eye of Terror, the Imperium is falling apart, and have pretty much ceded the 'northern' half of the galaxy to... whatever happens to it.
PenitentJake wrote: Interesting idea- two Imeria of man. Conveniently, the galaxy is at present, still cut in half by Cicatrix, so the geography to split the Imperium is there.
We would just need a charismatic leader in the other half to declare Guilliman a traitor, and the stage is set.
A primarch could do it, or not; as others have said, it could be any non-Ultramarine Imperial faction(s). The Church is a strong candidate, as is the Inquisition. But I think another primarch might be a cleaner choice- I don't want a civil war WITHIN the Sisterhood, so they go all behind or all against.
Truth be told though, I've never really liked internal conflict in space drama. You've got a whole universe of aliens, and you want to focus on beef between humans? Seems like defeating the purpose of setting a story in space.
The last thing Xenos players want is another Imperium vs Imperium narrative. It isn't a much better narrative for chaos either, unless they ultimately end up corrupting one side or the other.
I think another primarch is better otherwise it will eventually be loyalist primarchs vs traitor primarchs, boring
It’s easy to swing, Guilliman is fed up and believes his way is the way forward:
Lion thinks he should have been war master all along and is angry that he is still not being seen as the natural leader of man
Sanguinus re incarnates and says to be the next emperor is his destiny
Dorn just takes a portion of the empire and fortifies it and becomes isolationist
Sometimes I think that GW struggle to come up with ideas for EC and WE, and we know what happened last time they couldn't think of reasons for uniqueness...Squats got squatted.
I think they should release alpharius. as a single cutout of one of the CSM off the new sprue.
...or not
In all seriousness though, its about time the EC got some love, they've been stuck in that damn finecast so long. And maybe just maybe their incredible price hike is a precursor to new models with better rules? just speculation really.
I really reallly wanna see my boy angron and the WE asap. but I know that's a while away. Oh well.
IMO fulgrim should come before another loyalist one, the EC and chaos as a whole so badly need it. Plus guilliman is doing fine atm (as fine as that can be in the current situation haha).
I'd assume that we're going to see heavy plot advancement across this new book series- maybe the return of The Lion or The Khan can be a heroic intervention to save guilliman from certain death at the hands of fulgrim. But that's really wishlisting at that point
edit: whatever happens, I think we all want it to happen soon
PenitentJake wrote: Interesting idea- two Imeria of man. Conveniently, the galaxy is at present, still cut in half by Cicatrix, so the geography to split the Imperium is there.
We would just need a charismatic leader in the other half to declare Guilliman a traitor, and the stage is set.
A primarch could do it, or not; as others have said, it could be any non-Ultramarine Imperial faction(s). The Church is a strong candidate, as is the Inquisition. But I think another primarch might be a cleaner choice- I don't want a civil war WITHIN the Sisterhood, so they go all behind or all against.
Truth be told though, I've never really liked internal conflict in space drama. You've got a whole universe of aliens, and you want to focus on beef between humans? Seems like defeating the purpose of setting a story in space.
The last thing Xenos players want is another Imperium vs Imperium narrative. It isn't a much better narrative for chaos either, unless they ultimately end up corrupting one side or the other.
I think another primarch is better otherwise it will eventually be loyalist primarchs vs traitor primarchs, boring
It’s easy to swing, Guilliman is fed up and believes his way is the way forward:
Lion thinks he should have been war master all along and is angry that he is still not being seen as the natural leader of man
Sanguinus re incarnates and says to be the next emperor is his destiny
Dorn just takes a portion of the empire and fortifies it and becomes isolationist
So on
See, I'd rather have primarchs vs traitor primarchs than any of those other proposals. One is Marines vs. Chaos which might incorporates Daemons, so you're dealing with three distinct armies, or at least two. What you're proposing is Marines, Marines, Marines, Marines, vs some Marines in all their Mariniest to see who can out Marine who. I think what I was referencing in my post was a suggestion that an Imperial schism against Gulliman doesn't need to be marine based at all. If Gw can invent Yvraine, the can invent a preacher or guard commander who unites other Imperial factions.
Personally, I don't like internal schism when it's large scale. The intrigues of the Inquisition are one thing, but full scale Imperial Civil War? I play 40k as escapism from human on human conflict. Chaos and aliens are the preferred enemies of any of my Imperial armies- given a choice, I go that way every time. And if someone wants to play an Imperial forces against me, I usually use Chaos, GSC or Drukhari. Imperium on Imperium is not my bag.
Honestly I'd be totally happy with an EC release sans Fulgrim. Won't happen, of course, but I just want to be able to depict the EC on the tabletop as they are in the lore. Don't need Fulgrim to do that.
Marshal Loss wrote: Honestly I'd be totally happy with an EC release sans Fulgrim. Won't happen, of course, but I just want to be able to depict the EC on the tabletop as they are in the lore. Don't need Fulgrim to do that.
Bringing the Khan back would be interesting if only because it would probably just result in a massive schism within the Imperium. Jaghatai was ambivalent toward the Imperium even when it was a borderline utopia pre-Heresy. If he returned and saw the state it was in as of the 41st millennium, his response in all likelihood would be to just take the Scars and feth off to some remote edge of the galaxy, or even maybe the Eye of Terror. It would be like a human version of the Farsight Enclaves.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Noise Marines should come about, but only after GW has significantly dropped the points prices for them and their gear.
Pretty sure that won't happen until whichever codex (EC or CSM) brings us new noise marines.
I guess they could just not do new noise marines, but at this point that'd just be egregious.
All of the cult Marines need their own models in my mind (the regular possessed are desperately need in update), but since noisers can be taken as troops the Emperor's Children, it strikes me as very wrong that their prices and those of their weapons are so high. At least berzerkers and their weapons generally have low price weapons.
But unless its a mistake that they'll FAQ (Which it might well be, like the warp talons they got a base increase plus a weapon increase, which is out of line with what happened to most units), the points value isn't changing until a new book comes.
That'll be a codex (either EC or CSM) or CA2021. It won't be in a CA 2020, because that comes out next week- its where the point increases come from. If new noise marines come, it will likely be part of a release around a book.
Smaller odds on a box set or another terrible 'Psychic Awakening' type series.
Marshal Loss wrote: Honestly I'd be totally happy with an EC release sans Fulgrim. Won't happen, of course, but I just want to be able to depict the EC on the tabletop as they are in the lore. Don't need Fulgrim to do that.
edit: whatever happens, I think we all want it to happen soon
Yeeeeeeeeep. I think we'll have a better idea of when/if EC are coming out when the 9th ed CSM book drops
You don't need to put Fulgrim on the tabletop, but he should be available for players that want to play him.
I'm also really interested in how a plastic Fulgrim will look.
He's not necessary for the army to function and an EC release would not be lacking were he not present. Unfortunately speculation always has to revolve around Primarchs these days, case in point
Besides, as I said, GWobviously wouldn't do a release without him.
Marshal Loss wrote: Honestly I'd be totally happy with an EC release sans Fulgrim. Won't happen, of course, but I just want to be able to depict the EC on the tabletop as they are in the lore. Don't need Fulgrim to do that.
edit: whatever happens, I think we all want it to happen soon
Yeeeeeeeeep. I think we'll have a better idea of when/if EC are coming out when the 9th ed CSM book drops
You don't need to put Fulgrim on the tabletop, but he should be available for players that want to play him.
I'm also really interested in how a plastic Fulgrim will look.
He's not necessary for the army to function and an EC release would not be lacking were he not present. Unfortunately speculation always has to revolve around Primarchs these days, case in point
Besides, as I said, GWobviously wouldn't do a release without him.
I would disagree, An EC release would most certainly be lacking without their Daemon Primarch, when both the Thousand Sons and Death Guard release got theirs. There are plenty of instances of things armies don't need to function, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be included in the release.
But unless its a mistake that they'll FAQ (Which it might well be, like the warp talons they got a base increase plus a weapon increase, which is out of line with what happened to most units), the points value isn't changing until a new book comes.
That'll be a codex (either EC or CSM) or CA2021. It won't be in a CA 2020, because that comes out next week- its where the point increases come from. If new noise marines come, it will likely be part of a release around a book.
Smaller odds on a box set or another terrible 'Psychic Awakening' type series.
It's a tangent, but thanks to Psychic awakening, we have: Drazhar, Jain Zar, Ghaz, Mephiston, Shadowsun, Draxus and Stern, plus a named Wolf and a Necron monster. I think Psychic Awakening was great. Many of those models are awesome, whether the books were everything you wanted them to be or not. Most GK players are pretty grateful for PA.
If GW is going to give us 9th dexes with model support for the next year instead of campaign books, I'm fine with that- I actually like it better, provided they stop making stuff for factions that don't need more stuff so the rest of us can catch up (fat chance of that: Marines! Marines! Marines!). But a campaign cycle that gave every faction some new rules and many factions new models was an acceptable strategy as far as I'm concerned.
Marshal Loss wrote: Honestly I'd be totally happy with an EC release sans Fulgrim. Won't happen, of course, but I just want to be able to depict the EC on the tabletop as they are in the lore. Don't need Fulgrim to do that.
edit: whatever happens, I think we all want it to happen soon
Yeeeeeeeeep. I think we'll have a better idea of when/if EC are coming out when the 9th ed CSM book drops
You don't need to put Fulgrim on the tabletop, but he should be available for players that want to play him.
I'm also really interested in how a plastic Fulgrim will look.
He's not necessary for the army to function and an EC release would not be lacking were he not present. Unfortunately speculation always has to revolve around Primarchs these days, case in point
Besides, as I said, GWobviously wouldn't do a release without him.
I would disagree, An EC release would most certainly be lacking without their Daemon Primarch, when both the Thousand Sons and Death Guard release got theirs. There are plenty of instances of things armies don't need to function, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be included in the release.
You missed the point yet again. EC don't justify their existence based on whether Fulgrim is or is not in a book. People have been playing these Legions for decades without their Primarchs with no negative impact. Remove Mortarion or Magnus from their respective books and the armies are still satisfying to play with and against. Besides, EC lore is predicated upon their Primarch being absent (& in a far more distant fashion to that of the TS/DG/WE), not present. Either way he'll invariably accompany any prospective EC release, as I've said 3x now, so you can stop waffling
But unless its a mistake that they'll FAQ (Which it might well be, like the warp talons they got a base increase plus a weapon increase, which is out of line with what happened to most units), the points value isn't changing until a new book comes.
That'll be a codex (either EC or CSM) or CA2021. It won't be in a CA 2020, because that comes out next week- its where the point increases come from. If new noise marines come, it will likely be part of a release around a book.
Smaller odds on a box set or another terrible 'Psychic Awakening' type series.
It's a tangent, but thanks to Psychic awakening, we have: Drazhar, Jain Zar, Ghaz, Mephiston, Shadowsun, Draxus and Stern, plus a named Wolf and a Necron monster. I think Psychic Awakening was great. Many of those models are awesome, whether the books were everything you wanted them to be or not. Most GK players are pretty grateful for PA.
GW spent 20-odd years telling me that using special characters was wrong, and only the most sick and twisted individuals would use them outside WD story battle reports where they replay the game repeatedly until they get the results they want.
So I care nothing for them. All I see is a missed opportunity to release a generic character kit- the wow factor on Mephiston lasted about 5 minutes- its a nice model, but a generic BA libby would have been just as nice looking, and overall a more useful release. The eldar stuff had me shaking my head at tactical rocks and absurdly bad 'dynamic' poses.
From my perspective, PA was a waste of time and resources. Most of it should have been in the SM 2.0 Codex (with pointers for the Special Snowflake chapters, rather than reprinting those sheets over and over), and the 'fixing' of GK and a few other things should have been handled a different way. (like a free pdf errata for their codex)
Marshal Loss wrote: Honestly I'd be totally happy with an EC release sans Fulgrim. Won't happen, of course, but I just want to be able to depict the EC on the tabletop as they are in the lore. Don't need Fulgrim to do that.
edit: whatever happens, I think we all want it to happen soon
Yeeeeeeeeep. I think we'll have a better idea of when/if EC are coming out when the 9th ed CSM book drops
You don't need to put Fulgrim on the tabletop, but he should be available for players that want to play him.
I'm also really interested in how a plastic Fulgrim will look.
He's not necessary for the army to function and an EC release would not be lacking were he not present. Unfortunately speculation always has to revolve around Primarchs these days, case in point
Besides, as I said, GWobviously wouldn't do a release without him.
I would disagree, An EC release would most certainly be lacking without their Daemon Primarch, when both the Thousand Sons and Death Guard release got theirs. There are plenty of instances of things armies don't need to function, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be included in the release.
You missed the point yet again. EC don't justify their existence based on whether Fulgrim is or is not in a book. People have been playing these Legions for decades without their Primarchs with no negative impact. Remove Mortarion or Magnus from their respective books and the armies are still satisfying to play with and against. Besides, EC lore is predicated upon their Primarch being absent (& in a far more distant fashion to that of the TS/DG/WE), not present. Either way he'll invariably accompany any prospective EC release, as I've said 3x now, so you can stop waffling
I'm not missing your point, I just think your point is very poor.
I have never stated that any tratior legion "Justifies" it's existence based on the presence of a daemon primarch. I said that a current release would most certainly be lacking without one, when the previous two have gotten them. At this point it would be a negative impact to not have Fugrim with a large EC range release.
I'm not missing your point, I just think your point is very poor.
I have never stated that any tratior legion "Justifies" it's existence based on the presence of a daemon primarch. I said that a current release would most certainly be lacking without one, when the previous two have gotten them. At this point it would be a negative impact to not have Fugrim with a large EC range release.
Mate if you understood my point you wouldn't have replied to begin with. I simply said that I (read: singular personal pronoun) would be happy with an EC release sans Fulgrim, and EC players don't need him to play the faction - which are both objective facts, and which you in turn took in an unexpectedly stupid direction. I am not to blame for your poor reading comprehension.
I'm not missing your point, I just think your point is very poor.
I have never stated that any tratior legion "Justifies" it's existence based on the presence of a daemon primarch. I said that a current release would most certainly be lacking without one, when the previous two have gotten them. At this point it would be a negative impact to not have Fugrim with a large EC range release.
Mate if you understood my point you wouldn't have replied to begin with. I simply said that I (read: singular personal pronoun) would be happy with an EC release sans Fulgrim, and EC players don't need him to play the faction - which are both objective facts, and which you in turn took in an unexpectedly stupid direction. I am not to blame for your poor reading comprehension.
No need to be rude here. If you can't be civil, you should step away from the keyboard.
My original comment was just because you would be happy without Fulgrim, a lot of other players would not and that you don't need to play with him. You then double'd down and said that the release would not be lacking without him, which I disagreed with due to the other traitor legions getting theirs.
I honestly hope for EC not get their own codex, but simply have fulgrim, noise terminators and dreads added to Codex CSM.
If they get their own codex, current EC player would be looking at having vast amounts of their collection rendered invalid. A dedicated codex would mean losing all but the generic marine choices plus 3-5 other things from codex CSM, just like TS and DG did. There are still vast death guard armies on sale on ebay, made up by models they are no longer allowed to field, like bikers, vindicators, havocs and obliterators.
In the grim darkness of 2020, there is no fairness.
Togusa wrote: Like Salamanders? Feth off. Like Dark Angels? Go to hell. A big fan of Word Bearers? Nope son, you get nothing.
The flood gates are open. Bring all primarchs back, retcon the dead ones.
The four (and a half?) dead Primarchs need to stay dead. I'm open to any of the ones where death hasn't been confirmed returning, even if in one case they've got a new bionic hand, but let the dead stay dead.
One of the few things Abbadon had succeeded in before the Story team lost their damn minds was ensuring that Horus could never be cloned.
Aye-ya! I didn't fall out of the turnip truck yesterday.
For example, you might want 40k rules for the Salamander's duder to cover/play War of the Beast. With HH, I don't know if the rules could cover it without major housejiggering it (mostly as it's one game(HH) I have not really looked into as the books are as easy to obtain as Roc's teeth here).
-This might be the same for any event happening after the current HH rulebook, up to the "current" era, which is quite abit more "familar" and more likely an interest to play in.
Others would have to speak about that, all I know is the models & lore from HH.
So what you're saying but don't want to admit is that you just want Vulkan and Dorn models and rules so that you can play lore accurate games set during the Scouring and the War of the Beast.
Okay? But that's a very niche' target demographic. And even then, models for those Primarchs already exist via the HH ruleset. Take 5 minutes to homebrew their HH rules over to 8/9th edition rules and you'll have what you want.
steelhead177th wrote: Give the dead ones models & rules. Nothing says you have to play 40k in the year 40k, eh?
THANK YOU.
Most people play for the models, they like the characters and factions yes, but it's about game play. Have some alternate thing "Warhammer Heroes" or something where the models are a part of the game, but not the fluff. Problem solved.
steelhead177th wrote: Give the dead ones models & rules. Nothing says you have to play 40k in the year 40k, eh?
THANK YOU.
Most people play for the models, they like the characters and factions yes, but it's about game play. Have some alternate thing "Warhammer Heroes" or something where the models are a part of the game, but not the fluff. Problem solved.
Citation very much required regarding people choosing to play for the game play.
I don't have survey results or anything to back me up, but in my experience, people tend to get invested in the game due to the strength of the background and the factions. Continue eroding the pillars that support it - such as the four (and a half?) dead Primarchs, and eventually things will collapse.
You can't play those models in 40K. They have no rules.
But you can play them in a game designed around using Primarchs, as opposed to one that struggles to deal with the difference in scale and capability they imply.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Noise Marines should come about, but only after GW has significantly dropped the points prices for them and their gear.
Pretty sure that won't happen until whichever codex (EC or CSM) brings us new noise marines.
I guess they could just not do new noise marines, but at this point that'd just be egregious.
All of the cult Marines need their own models in my mind (the regular possessed are desperately need in update), but since noisers can be taken as troops the Emperor's Children, it strikes me as very wrong that their prices and those of their weapons are so high. At least berzerkers and their weapons generally have low price weapons.
Given that NM are more expensive then Intercessors with Sonic Blasters.. Yeaaah they badly need a points drop if the Intercessors aren't going to get far more expensive.
steelhead177th wrote: Give the dead ones models & rules. Nothing says you have to play 40k in the year 40k, eh?
THANK YOU.
Most people play for the models, they like the characters and factions yes, but it's about game play. Have some alternate thing "Warhammer Heroes" or something where the models are a part of the game, but not the fluff. Problem solved.
Citation very much required regarding people choosing to play for the game play.
I don't have survey results or anything to back me up, but in my experience, people tend to get invested in the game due to the strength of the background and the factions. Continue eroding the pillars that support it - such as the four (and a half?) dead Primarchs, and eventually things will collapse.
You can't play those models in 40K. They have no rules.
But you can play them in a game designed around using Primarchs, as opposed to one that struggles to deal with the difference in scale and capability they imply.
-Citation, my own experience after 6 years playing in over a dozen game tournaments, and two dozen game stores.
People talk about the fulff, but most never seem to care off the internet one way or the other.
I never hear people say "Gee, I DON'T want my primarch for my faction.
From a fluff perspective, I think things were better pre Gathering Storm. Having daemon Primarchs is fine, Gulliman was enthroned like his father. Lion doing the King Arthur thing. No primaris. Cadia holding the fine line.
From a models perspective, I want to see how the studio does all of them, especially the Lion.
BlaxicanX wrote: So what you're saying but don't want to admit is that you just want Vulkan and Dorn models and rules so that you can play lore accurate games set during the Scouring and the War of the Beast.
Okay? But that's a very niche' target demographic. And even then, models for those Primarchs already exist via the HH ruleset. Take 5 minutes to homebrew their HH rules over to 8/9th edition rules and you'll have what you want.
- So what you are saying is that you want to cherrypick information from the post above this one(that I wrote) to prove a strawman arguement and ignore the actual message in the post.
I used the War of the Beast as an example. It's a good one, one that you don't have an arguement about so you make your arguement about me wanting rule & models and tell me to admit it.
Meh. My orginal point still stands. And yes, I have a Space Goblin Army, but no Space Marines...so no primarchs for me period. I have no personal stake in this, but from a gameplay and to open up the hobby - aye- all the primarchs but the lost two should get models and rules.
-Oh and 5 minutes to go from 7th to 9th?
I have been following 40k from 4th onwards and the shift from 7th to 8th was not taken that lightly.
That not taking into account the change in the Space Marines themselves, going from Legions to Chapters, and all that Codex stuff...ya know.
I was hoping for some news of something as I have an unit of 20 Noise Marines for me Black Legion and was looking forward for them to be...IDK...more impressive without strats for those points.
I'd love a Sonic Dread as well, but that seems to be an EC only thing. Shame really. I used to have a Rifts 'borg that had a 5.56mm minigun forearm(underslung) who loaded Ramjet rounds into 'er. Also had Strobelights, 86db loudspeaker soundsystem & a taste for Rockabilly& Heavy Metal music, who would make an awesome callback for one, but say la vie...
be praised if it they see a release this version...
