I know, I know... these types of threads have been made in multitudes, but I would like to discuss it further.
Primarch/Legion II and XI have been sealed/redacted, so not very many people know what exactly happened to them, save a few that were in the Great Crusade and are still alive, with even fewer are willing to talk about it.
Let's start with the possibilities:
1) Mutations/corruption/genetic instability was a pretty common thing when it came to some of the Space Marine Legions with examples of Magnus' and Fulgrim's Legions being on the brink of collapse due to various mutations and genetic screw-ups. If the Lost Primarchs/Legions had the same thing happen to them, why cover it up, but not do the same for Magnus and Fulgrim?
2) Chaos/Renegade Primarchs/Legions are also not unusual, as we have seen throughout the Horus Heresy series that 9 of the 18 remaining Legions turned on the Imperium. They were declared excommunicate traitoris, but knowledge of them still is out in the open. If the Lost Primarchs and their respective Legions were accused of heresy, why redact/remove information on them, when the Horus Heresy was undeniably worse?
So if mutations, heresy, corruption, what have you, doesn't fit the narrative, what possible reason could they have been "lost"? If they weren't executed by the likes of the Space Wolves, then something tragic must of happened to them, which should have been memorialized, not covered up.
Going back to the people who were in the Great Crusade and are still alive, why not ask them? Roboute Guilliman has sworn to never mention them, but Bjorn the Fell-Handed, Belisarius Cawl, the Fallen, Daemon Primarchs and their Legions would absolutely know a name, a color, a symbol that is related to these Lost Primarchs and their respective Legions. What do they have to lose? Nothing and even more so for the Daemon Primarchs and their Legions. They would love to spread the knowledge if they were heretics just like them.
Games Workshop's original intention was to make Legion II and XI your own Legion/Chapter, but as the lore has been expanded in great detail, there is no getting out of this.
I have a huge writeup on this somewhere, but, short form that isn't supported by the canon as it stands?
Legion II was lead by Athena, the lone daughter of the Emperor. He Legion was formed out of Geneseed-tweaked men like the others, but she had a mindset based on transforming conquered societies, where she served as a teacher and healer instead of just a valiant warrior. A builder as it were.
She was one of the Legions directed "west" in the Pacific Sector, but that sector's small for a reason … the legions engaged in it where all pretty peaceful types (The Sons of Athena, the Salamanders, and the Word Bearers( who believed in making certain that the worlds they took over stayed loyal and understood the greater mission, but it was slooooow.
Eventually, the Emperor pushed for them to do more, so Athena turned to SCIENCE! and tapped her friend, and fellow healer, Apothecary Bile, from the Emperor's Children (She and Fulgrim got along great) … he helped switch up the gneseed to work in women, thus giving her twice as many warriors to work from. This lead to a boom in her expansion, so the Emperor came to pay a visit to find out why she was suddenly doing better. When he saw female Marines, he flipped … after all, if there were both men and women of the Astartes line, they could REPLACE humanity, which he was very much against.
Not only was her legion (Now renamed the Sons and Daughters of Athena) ordered destroyed, but all records were to be purged so that no one would ever know that it was even *possible* to do this.
A few fled and survived, going underground, and the Heresey happened soon after, so the Emperor was a tad busy and never able to finish the job before he got throned, so there's still a small cult out there, the Daughter of Athena, who fight on against the Imperium and keep up a low level guerilla war in the sector, where the Salamanders and the Rainbow Warriors just can't ever seem to quite catch them, dog gone it. Looks like they slipped away again. So CRAFTY those Athenites!
Warrior Woman of Schaeffer's Last Chancers is a member of the Cult of Athena, and other aspects of the story (Athena's own geneseed had nasty defects so was locked away until used in the Cursed Founding, then locked away again for obvious reasons, where the Sons of Medusa and Rainbow Wariors come from, the Starchild) are mixed in as well to try and solve a few unanswered questions.
It's from, man, twenty years ago or so? OLD work of mine, but still neat.
It all started with two questions: Why aren't there female marines and What did Legion #2 do that was WORSE than turning to Chaos?
So, that's my pitch. The full version's around 4000 words long I think. It's BIG and has way more detail in it.
Not even GW knows what happened to them. They were just 2 random entries to make background feel deeper and more thought out than it actually was.
And now GW can't really reveal if they are smart as whatever they come up with would be illogical and anti-climatic. They work better as what they are. Closed doors
One of the things that attracted me to 40k was the mystery of the lost primarchs. Have been working on head cannon for a while now and tried my best to find out what happens from all the hints.
It seems the II probably had a warp related accident or a Catastrophe from some unknown tech. Fulgrim mentioned something similar I think but can’t think where it came from.
The XI seems to have been killed in The Ragdan xenocides(maybe even the II as well) as more info is coming out on the wars and mentionS that entire legions were lost. This is the story I am working on for the IX, and using the Primarch tarot card for inspiration.
But still doesn’t answer why they covered it up? It is maddening haha. I know it is a long shot but I think one or both were dangerous to the Emperor, maybe some kind of ability, or psychic power that could potentially hurt/kill him.
Also have theorized that one of the primarchs altered either himself and/or his marines in a way that threatened the Emperor or the Great Crusade.
Edit; also believe one Primarch could have had a mutation that was contagious to other marines not of their gene-seed, which could have killed all the legions. That would be a great idea for a story..
I honestly think it was never meant to be revealed. It was a quirk of the system to add some intrigue. And it worked.
Anything GW releases will be a retcon and will damage the universe IMHO.
In my headcanon, one of them was the actual successor to the Emp and has been hidden away for *reasons* . The other, following the Ying/Yang style of the Primarchs was the literal embodiment of Chaos and has been hidden away for *reasons*.
I'm good with the odd unexplained bits of a story, but still think the big E did some Men in Black mind tinkering on a vast scale to cover it up and thats why hh era characters cant/wont explain it as all they know is 2/11 did something bad
Gav Thorpe was on MWG the other day and the question was asked. They're based on missing Roman legions that were expunged from records. There's nothing that's been decided and hidden, they're just one of the anomaly's of the setting that nobody will ever know (unless they decide to cash in on them I guess). I know Gav has to give his business answer, but I didn't detect a hint of excitement from him knowing something we don't.
At this point, nothing GW could come up with would live up to the expectation, unfortunately. After so many years of this being a big mystery, they'd have to come up with an explanation that's seriously mind-blowing, or people are just going to be disappointed...
I hope they won't try to milk that mystery for cheap suspense either. There are few things more frustrating than writers pretending to have some big reveal while they're just emptying a trawler full of red herrings... (It's been decades and I'm still peeved about The X-Files )
The missing legions are great fodder for headcanon and that's about all they should be.
Psionara wrote: I know, I know... these types of threads have been made in multitudes, but I would like to discuss it further.
Primarch/Legion II and XI have been sealed/redacted, so not very many people know what exactly happened to them, save a few that were in the Great Crusade and are still alive, with even fewer are willing to talk about it.
Let's start with the possibilities:
1) Mutations/corruption/genetic instability was a pretty common thing when it came to some of the Space Marine Legions with examples of Magnus' and Fulgrim's Legions being on the brink of collapse due to various mutations and genetic screw-ups. If the Lost Primarchs/Legions had the same thing happen to them, why cover it up, but not do the same for Magnus and Fulgrim?
2) Chaos/Renegade Primarchs/Legions are also not unusual, as we have seen throughout the Horus Heresy series that 9 of the 18 remaining Legions turned on the Imperium. They were declared excommunicate traitoris, but knowledge of them still is out in the open. If the Lost Primarchs and their respective Legions were accused of heresy, why redact/remove information on them, when the Horus Heresy was undeniably worse?
So if mutations, heresy, corruption, what have you, doesn't fit the narrative, what possible reason could they have been "lost"? If they weren't executed by the likes of the Space Wolves, then something tragic must of happened to them, which should have been memorialized, not covered up.
Going back to the people who were in the Great Crusade and are still alive, why not ask them? Roboute Guilliman has sworn to never mention them, but Bjorn the Fell-Handed, Belisarius Cawl, the Fallen, Daemon Primarchs and their Legions would absolutely know a name, a color, a symbol that is related to these Lost Primarchs and their respective Legions. What do they have to lose? Nothing and even more so for the Daemon Primarchs and their Legions. They would love to spread the knowledge if they were heretics just like them.
Games Workshop's original intention was to make Legion II and XI your own Legion/Chapter, but as the lore has been expanded in great detail, there is no getting out of this.
Psionara wrote: Going back to the people who were in the Great Crusade and are still alive, why not ask them? Roboute Guilliman has sworn to never mention them, but Bjorn the Fell-Handed, Belisarius Cawl, the Fallen, Daemon Primarchs and their Legions would absolutely know a name, a color, a symbol that is related to these Lost Primarchs and their respective Legions. What do they have to lose? Nothing and even more so for the Daemon Primarchs and their Legions. They would love to spread the knowledge if they were heretics just like them.
Not even if they were heretics, just something that showed the Emperor to be a fraud, weak or imperfect would suffice.
Psionara wrote: Games Workshop's original intention was to make Legion II and XI your own Legion/Chapter, but as the lore has been expanded in great detail, there is no getting out of this.
Yea, I never got that one. The "master tome", aka the Rogue Trader book, is quite clear in that there are 1000 chapters, yet they need to keep 2 founding legions "spare" so you can make your own?
It always felt as if it was a case of "wizards did it", because someone asked, no one knew, and they wanted to give an answer to get people to stop asking.
Games Workshop's original intention was to make Legion II and XI your own Legion/Chapter, but as the lore has been expanded in great detail, there is no getting out of this.
Sure there is, they simply don't produce any lore for them. There, problem solved - and from what I understand this is precisely the case with those two legions, the design team and Black Library have purposefully *not* written any explanation or lore behind what happened to those two legions and have only written "around" them in order to - as vaguely as possible - make it clear that they once existed and are now missing (which is why some of the statements made about them and some of the information that fans have linked to them, appear to be self-contradictory, because the writers aren't actually working with any real fluff, just putting out noise to call attention to their absence).
Yea, I never got that one. The "master tome", aka the Rogue Trader book, is quite clear in that there are 1000 chapters, yet they need to keep 2 founding legions "spare" so you can make your own?
Makes perfect sense, the 1000 chapters give you leeway to create your own chapter, BUT by default that chapter has to be a descendant of one of the original legions/primarchs which puts a degree of constraint on what it is you're able to write and how you justify it. By offering up 2 missing legions, you now have the opportunity and freedom to tie your chapters history to something else which you have created as well. Want your custom chapter to be weresharks, because their primarch was a mutated shark-man? There, now you can do it.
Psionara wrote: Games Workshop's original intention was to make Legion II and XI your own Legion/Chapter, but as the lore has been expanded in great detail, there is no getting out of this.
Yea, I never got that one. The "master tome", aka the Rogue Trader book, is quite clear in that there are 1000 chapters, yet they need to keep 2 founding legions "spare" so you can make your own?
It always felt as if it was a case of "wizards did it", because someone asked, no one knew, and they wanted to give an answer to get people to stop asking.
Wasn't it an Adeptus Titanicus / Space Marine / Epic thing (which was set in the HH) rather that Rogue Trader?
Psionara wrote: Games Workshop's original intention was to make Legion II and XI your own Legion/Chapter, but as the lore has been expanded in great detail, there is no getting out of this.
Yea, I never got that one. The "master tome", aka the Rogue Trader book, is quite clear in that there are 1000 chapters, yet they need to keep 2 founding legions "spare" so you can make your own?
It always felt as if it was a case of "wizards did it", because someone asked, no one knew, and they wanted to give an answer to get people to stop asking.
It isn't actually true, which is why it doesn't make sense.
Founding legions (or, indeed legions at all) aren't in Rogue Trader. The Space Marineconcept is very different (drugged out criminals and maniacs, leashed by brainwashing and more drugs, of the various organs they're famous for, only the black carapace is referenced. The rest is just "their bodies are toughened by bio-chem, and their resolved is heightened by psycho-surgery"),
Organizationally, while a dozen are pictured, and named, they don't line up with founding chapters. RT notes that each chapter has its own history, rituals and traditions, and many have been in existence since the Age of the Imperium began, and that individual chapter commanders are free to organizse or augment their regular troops in any way they see fit. The readers are left with 988 chapters to fill out for themselves at the time of Rogue Trader.
Its interesting to note the Spacewolf fortress gets a four page write-up as an example of the 'typical space marine base,' and they're nothing like the Spacewolves of today. They're monks, with places for prayer and meetings, and a strict schedule for such things. The fortress is the domain of Imperial Commander Enoch, ruler of the planet Lucan and leader of the Space Wolves. (Masters of the chapter are a lesser title). Leman Russ is referenced- as the founder, but also the pilot of the spacecraft 'Medusa,' which hangs in the great hall. He also has a picture earlier in the book (heavily scarred, rebreather, cybernetic eye) with the following caption:
"Marine Commander;
Imperial Record AA/SW05/015 f19P&. Profile: Leman Russ, Born 2612016, M32., Guranta D Gurantan system.
Commissioned Adeputs Terra as special agent 0134041, M32. First rose to imperial notice during Lucan Crusade. Appointed Imperial
Commander Lucan 0333042, M32. Instrumental in founding Adeptus Astartes unti 4 'Spacewolves.' Suffered severe alviola damage during
acid storms on Susa. Transplanted with a model cybron-osmotic gill"
Not sure if its a typo for unit or if 'unti' means something else, but it may be a reference to Spacewolves as the 4th Adeptus Astartes unit (something the iron warriors might object to).
----
Anyway, the 12 chapters pictured in Rogue Trader are
Dark Angels (in their all black armor)
Flesh Eaters
Flesh Tearers
Spacewolves (one word)
Ultra Marines (two words- they get fleshed out in RT-era products like Warhammer Siege as not a full SM chapter until the Battle of Macragge, when they moved to that planet permanently, honored for defeating the tyranids). Also for a while they have a half-eldar psyker in their ranks
White Scars
Not appearing in this book- Imperial Fists, Raven Guard. Also not in this book (wouldn't get fleshed out til realm of chaos: slaves to darkness)- any concept or even mention of the heresy and chaos marines, none of that is in RT, so no legions. The Emperor is in the Throne because of the strain of looking after humanity, nothing else.
That's back when Sanguinus was killed by a Bloodthirster at the gates of the Imperial Palace, rather than on the barge, and also when the battle between the Emperor and Horus was decided by Ollanius Pius, a plain ol' guardsman who stood up to Horus and, while killed SAAGELY, gave the Emperor the drive to finish it.
Ol' OP was a man's man if ever there was one but his place in the story's been purged.
They're monks, with places for prayer and meetings, and a strict schedule for such things.
Interesting - does this imply the possibility that Space Marines, as a collective whole, owe their modern interpretation to the Rogue Trader era Spacewolves?
tneva82 wrote: Not even GW knows what happened to them. They were just 2 random entries to make background feel deeper and more thought out than it actually was.
And now GW can't really reveal if they are smart as whatever they come up with would be illogical and anti-climatic. They work better as what they are. Closed doors
Kinda close, but not quite there.
The two anonymous Chapters (for that was their title at the time. Love my old background, this isn’t meant to be a pointless flex) were anonymous to allow hobbyists room to create their own.
Now, as for the canonical reason? I can only put it down to the Primarchs themselves being heavily mutated in body. Like, heavily heavily mutated. The Emperor accepted Sanguinius despite his wings. He accepted (well, abused) Angron despite his serious headgear.
Other Primarchs had pronounced psychic abilities, even if they chose to repress them.
So whatever flaw or sin the lost Primarchs committed must be mind boggling. Like, seriously mind boggling.
It could even be as innocuous as being more psychically potent than The Emperor - in the same way as my dear old Daddykins is 5’8”, yet my brother and I are 6’4” and 6’2” respectively. Quirks of genetics and that.
tneva82 wrote: Not even GW knows what happened to them. They were just 2 random entries to make background feel deeper and more thought out than it actually was.
And now GW can't really reveal if they are smart as whatever they come up with would be illogical and anti-climatic. They work better as what they are. Closed doors
Kinda close, but not quite there.
The two anonymous Chapters (for that was their title at the time. Love my old background, this isn’t meant to be a pointless flex) were anonymous to allow hobbyists room to create their own.
Now, as for the canonical reason? I can only put it down to the Primarchs themselves being heavily mutated in body. Like, heavily heavily mutated. The Emperor accepted Sanguinius despite his wings. He accepted (well, abused) Angron despite his serious headgear.
Other Primarchs had pronounced psychic abilities, even if they chose to repress them.
So whatever flaw or sin the lost Primarchs committed must be mind boggling. Like, seriously mind boggling.
It could even be as innocuous as being more psychically potent than The Emperor - in the same way as my dear old Daddykins is 5’8”, yet my brother and I are 6’4” and 6’2” respectively. Quirks of genetics and that.
It could be they went traitor or just plain failed. Or things could be boring and they could have just been killed before they were found.
tneva82 wrote: Not even GW knows what happened to them. They were just 2 random entries to make background feel deeper and more thought out than it actually was.
And now GW can't really reveal if they are smart as whatever they come up with would be illogical and anti-climatic. They work better as what they are. Closed doors
Kinda close, but not quite there.
The two anonymous Chapters (for that was their title at the time. Love my old background, this isn’t meant to be a pointless flex) were anonymous to allow hobbyists room to create their own.
Now, as for the canonical reason? I can only put it down to the Primarchs themselves being heavily mutated in body. Like, heavily heavily mutated. The Emperor accepted Sanguinius despite his wings. He accepted (well, abused) Angron despite his serious headgear.
Other Primarchs had pronounced psychic abilities, even if they chose to repress them.
So whatever flaw or sin the lost Primarchs committed must be mind boggling. Like, seriously mind boggling.
It could even be as innocuous as being more psychically potent than The Emperor - in the same way as my dear old Daddykins is 5’8”, yet my brother and I are 6’4” and 6’2” respectively. Quirks of genetics and that.
It could be they went traitor or just plain failed. Or things could be boring and they could have just been killed before they were found.
I'm doubtful that either missing primarch turned traitor - if the Emperor knew his primarchs could/would rebel he'd have put some sort of strict oversight/control in place before the Heresy.
Unless we're going with the view of Emps as a 5 dimensional chess master that planned for the Heresy to happen.
They're monks, with places for prayer and meetings, and a strict schedule for such things.
Interesting - does this imply the possibility that Space Marines, as a collective whole, owe their modern interpretation to the Rogue Trader era Spacewolves?
Not really. The text is pretty clear that this is just a typical chapter- they could have grabbed anyone. They just had the picture page for Leman Russ (cybernetic gills and all) earlier in the book, so they had a convenient name and planet to throw them on.
The distinctions between chapters have another edition before they start surfacing.
pm713 wrote:It could be they went traitor or just plain failed. Or things could be boring and they could have just been killed before they were found.
The various hints dropped in the HH series make it clear that isn't the case. While Corax never met them, it seemed pretty clear some of the others had- its implied very heavily that the Space Wolves wiped out at least one of them on orders.
Plus the Crusade went on for over 200 years, and their elimination is dated to 43 years before the Istvaan Massacre. So they overlapped with a fair bit of the great crusade's history.
Way back in the late 90’s our group theorized that Sigmar was one of the most Primarchs. There were even little Easter eggs left in supplements to encourage the idea. This was before the HH series, when Primarchs where mysterious and mythic brings. This Theory was supposedly officially debunked by GW.
I stumbled upon this video a while back, this guy does a great job with the idea, bringing it in the modern 40k and AoS era.
That was a pretty popular/common theory. I believe Sigmar/Archaon (not sure if that was covered in the video, didnt watch) were theorized to both be primarchs due to the supposed interconnectivity of the two settings early on, but as time went on I think it became apparent this wasn't the case as GW became adamant that they were two separate settings that shared common themes (mainly the Warp/chaos gods).
Other than that the Valedictors and the Rainbow Warriors seem to be the only theory that has any legs (as they were named as being one of the original 20 in early sources before being retconned to being Ultramarines successors.
tneva82 wrote: Not even GW knows what happened to them. They were just 2 random entries to make background feel deeper and more thought out than it actually was.
And now GW can't really reveal if they are smart as whatever they come up with would be illogical and anti-climatic. They work better as what they are. Closed doors
Kinda close, but not quite there.
The two anonymous Chapters (for that was their title at the time. Love my old background, this isn’t meant to be a pointless flex) were anonymous to allow hobbyists room to create their own.
Now, as for the canonical reason? I can only put it down to the Primarchs themselves being heavily mutated in body. Like, heavily heavily mutated. The Emperor accepted Sanguinius despite his wings. He accepted (well, abused) Angron despite his serious headgear.
Other Primarchs had pronounced psychic abilities, even if they chose to repress them.
So whatever flaw or sin the lost Primarchs committed must be mind boggling. Like, seriously mind boggling.
It could even be as innocuous as being more psychically potent than The Emperor - in the same way as my dear old Daddykins is 5’8”, yet my brother and I are 6’4” and 6’2” respectively. Quirks of genetics and that.
It could be they went traitor or just plain failed. Or things could be boring and they could have just been killed before they were found.
I'm doubtful that either missing primarch turned traitor - if the Emperor knew his primarchs could/would rebel he'd have put some sort of strict oversight/control in place before the Heresy.
Unless we're going with the view of Emps as a 5 dimensional chess master that planned for the Heresy to happen.
Some people do have that view.
The fact they could rebel was obvious from square 1. They were people. Plus the Emperor is not that smart.
Personal headcanon whenever questions about the lost primarchs is asked, (Not to be taken seriously )
The two lost primarchs landed far from the reach of the Emperor and the Imperial forces, on backward worlds struggling against a foul xenos menace. One favoured brutality above all means, but was able to utilise it in a cunning method. The other was more cunning in nature, but could still fight in brutal ways. Their resistance against the foul xenos inspired both friend and foe in the ongoing struggles. Word reached the Emperor too late, and he began to feel the early foundations of their actions growing within the vast alien gestalt consciousness. With a heavy heart he knew that while they remained loyal to humanity, their ongoing presence and exploits would merely add fuel to their status so their termination was ordered as quickly as possible..
A drastic purge of all information regarding the two lost brothers was conducted, and the remaining primarchs were sworn to secrecy, never to utter their names again. Their respective legions were fed into the most extreme warzones, utilising their talents, but with recruitment stopped and casualties mounting, they faded into obscurity and were disbanded into other legions.
But their memory could not so easily be removed from the xenos. Over the centuries, facts became myths, myths became legends. Who they were or even that they were once human was forgotten in the mists of time. Only their methods of war and larger than life personalities survived. And unusually their curious way of speaking low gothic took hold in the masses, sounding like the utterings of soccer hooligans from ancient Terra. The only thing we know was that their names once began with the letters G and M, but even the xenos have corrupted the names over the centuries in their own fashion.
Nice I vaguely remember the idea that the survivors like the Loyalists from the Traitor Legions became Ultramarines which explained why they reached the numbers they had before Calth.
Originally, the lost legions were said to have fought in the Heresy, and probably on Horus's side. That led to the obvious conclusion that they were traitors who had been completely destroyed, and so their records were expunged to complete their punishment, effectively completely erasing them from existence. The same wasn't done for the other traitor Legions because they were all still running around... erasing them from Imperial records would have made fighting against them problematic.
With the HH series retconning the Lost Legions to being gone before the Heresy went down, that theory no longer works, but Sanguinius drops a fairly solid hint in one of the books that mutation was to blame for at least one of them, as he tries to conceal his own Legion's flaw specifically in order to avoid the same fate. So the obvious theory then becomes that these Legions were too flawed to be viable, and were erased from records to maintain the illusion that the Legions are perfect.
One of the books also implies that what the two lost legions did was far worse than Horus betrayal or the civil war, etc. and that had those two legions not been destroyed then the Imperium would have fallen long before the Heresy ever happened.
I can't remember where, but I'm sure that in one of the HH books the emperor says something along the lines of "the only thing worse that betrayal is failure" or some such. I always took that as a reference that the 2 missing legions somehow how failed at their task, rather than falling to Chaos/rebelling.
If anyone can verify this that would be great, or it could be that I'm misremembering!
Aash wrote: I can't remember where, but I'm sure that in one of the HH books the emperor says something along the lines of "the only thing worse that betrayal is failure" or some such. I always took that as a reference that the 2 missing legions somehow how failed at their task, rather than falling to Chaos/rebelling.
If anyone can verify this that would be great, or it could be that I'm misremembering!
That really confused me because it seems blatantly untrue. For example the Salamanders Legion failed to apprehend the Traitor Legions but that's still much better than the Word Bearers joining the Traitors. (I know they were technically already traitors but that's when they openly turned).
The original purpose of the 2 missing Legions was to add a bit of mystery to the setting. That's now been all but destroyed by the 2,365,228 Horus Heresy novels and short stories but it's good to see this mystery remains and probably always will.
It's not quite a complete mystery, however. It's very heavily implied that the Space Wolves destroyed one of the lost Legions and Sanguinius does mention mutation as a reason for one of them being lost/destroyed. Whether it's the same Legion that was mutated and the Wolves destroyed is unknown. Quite why this has to remain a secret isn't really explained either.
From a more practical point of view, I struggle to see what GW could reveal that would be satisfying at this point. If they did attempt to delve into the history of the II and XI it would likely be a lot more disappointing than leaving it a mystery. Given what Horus did it would also likely be very difficult to come up with something worse than killing trillions and falling to Chaos.
1) one of the primarchs was found and raised by xenos that the emperor demanded be exterminated and the primarch used his legion to try and defend the xenos
2) one of them had a gentle upbringing and was forced to be a military commander despite being repulsed by violence
3) one of them was pretending to be the actual emperor when reaching human planets in the crusade and was viewed as a usurper
4) they ascended to god hood and became gork and mork
BaconCatBug wrote: I remember when the Horus Heresy was shrouded in Myth and Legend, and left vague by choice.
It was superior then. Now we have details, we can pick out the stupid and illogical details that ruin the story.
They already half ruined the mystique of the missing Legions by basically all-but-admitting Russ culled them on order of the Emperor.
See, I think its a bell-curve. I think the fluff we had "back then" was too little. I think what we have now is far far too much. I think you could probably cut about 2/3rds of the content and it would be much much better.
Theres definitely a lot of added depth as a result of the book series, including some additional mysteries and details that have greatly enhanced the setting, but I think there are some things which went a bit too far and, as you said, ruined the mystique in various ways.
Aash wrote: I can't remember where, but I'm sure that in one of the HH books the emperor says something along the lines of "the only thing worse that betrayal is failure" or some such. I always took that as a reference that the 2 missing legions somehow how failed at their task, rather than falling to Chaos/rebelling.
If anyone can verify this that would be great, or it could be that I'm misremembering!
That really confused me because it seems blatantly untrue. For example the Salamanders Legion failed to apprehend the Traitor Legions but that's still much better than the Word Bearers joining the Traitors. (I know they were technically already traitors but that's when they openly turned).
I might be misremembering (there are a lot of HH books, and some of them were a while ago now...) but I think that line was specifically in reference to betrayal. As in, the only thing worse than turning traitor is turning traitor but sucking at it. If you're going to attack your boss, at least make sure you win.
I'll go further and say GW should never have stated that this legions were destroyed before the heresy. Just let the II and XI numbers unallocated and never say anything about it except "no one knows".
Aash wrote: I can't remember where, but I'm sure that in one of the HH books the emperor says something along the lines of "the only thing worse that betrayal is failure" or some such. I always took that as a reference that the 2 missing legions somehow how failed at their task, rather than falling to Chaos/rebelling.
If anyone can verify this that would be great, or it could be that I'm misremembering!
That really confused me because it seems blatantly untrue. For example the Salamanders Legion failed to apprehend the Traitor Legions but that's still much better than the Word Bearers joining the Traitors. (I know they were technically already traitors but that's when they openly turned).
I might be misremembering (there are a lot of HH books, and some of them were a while ago now...) but I think that line was specifically in reference to betrayal. As in, the only thing worse than turning traitor is turning traitor but sucking at it. If you're going to attack your boss, at least make sure you win.
Ahhh so he's mad because they rebelled AND sucked at it rather than the Horusians who rebelled and did well.
The Horus Heresy should have been written across three trilogies of books, or something like that.
1. Crusade to corruption
2. Heresy (finishing before the attack on the sol system or terra)
3. Final conflict, aftermath and set the scene for the next 10k years.
Then quality and consistency could have been controlled and some characters wouldn’t have go their time in the spot light but who cares. Once the story had been completed from start to end more stories could have been written.
3-4 primarchs On each side should have been the key characters Plus the emperor.
As it is the key bits of information that make the core story line are spread across so many books that I don’t want to read them all.
I got so far in the series hit a crap book and never went back. And not sure if I will miss something I’d have really enjoyed if I skip a few books. I might however try opposing through using audio books.
Have an interesting story (should note that this is absolutely not official!) however might be the closest we ever get. Many years ago, late 00's, the Great Crusade forum (sadly RIP) was run by Laurie Goulding, who went on to work for BL. At the time he didn't but I think was trying to get his foot in the door and knew several of the BL authors. The forum ran a Great Crusade-era event called the Assault on Gedren Prime. Laurie had asked Graham McNeil to write some of the background for the event, which was super awesome, and one of the elements of the story was that a lost legion featured (basically one dude had turned up with his own marine chapter which didn't really fit in with everyone's Pre-Heresy forces so they became the 11th Legion! )
Apparently the 11th Legion Primarch is Malibron
The event was to do with the Crusade conquering a lost human world that had impressive cloning technology. Basically in the final battle of the event (a combined, multi-table affair featuring White Scars, World Eaters, Space Wolves, Blood Angels) the 11th Legion capital ship got destroyed in orbit by Mechanicum allies of the Gedrenites, a good portion of the Legion destroyed along with it (there were bits of the ship landing on the surface during the game). Malibron survived and responded by using exterminatus on one of the Gedren worlds (they had already surrendered) and then stole the cloning tech that was being held under guard by the Blood Angels, killing a bunch of them as he did so. He was apprehended along with the remains of his Legion and ordered back to Terra in chains, meanwhile Corax took hold of the cloning tech..
But no I don't think there will ever be anything official and I think it should remain so...
Lotus Corgi wrote: Way back in the late 90’s our group theorized that Sigmar was one of the most Primarchs. There were even little Easter eggs left in supplements to encourage the idea. This was before the HH series, when Primarchs where mysterious and mythic brings. This Theory was supposedly officially debunked by GW.
I stumbled upon this video a while back, this guy does a great job with the idea, bringing it in the modern 40k and AoS era.
Yup there used to be a fair bit of cross-over between WHFB and 40k. Chaos Warriors with bolt guns, things like that. Also that the coming of Sigmar was heralded by a comet (baby Sigmar arriving in his gestation podule!)
One thing that came up in one HH short story (Chamber at the end of memory) is the fact no-one knows what happened except the Emperor and Malcador aside from vague scraps of memory.
Have you ever wondered why none speak of them?' the Sigillite replied. 'Of course, there is the censure over all who know of the lost never to talk openly of their existence. Still, in the absence of fact all men will speculate. But you do not. The primarchs never speak of their lost kinsmen in anything but the vaguest of terms. Have you ever wondered why that is?'
'As you said, we are forbidden to do so.'
'Even when you are beyond your father's sight? Even when no one would be aware of such a discussion? Ask yourself why your thoughts always slip over recall of the lost and pass by.' Malcador bowed his head. 'What were they called, Rogal?' The Sigillite seemed almost sorrowful as he asked him. 'Your vanished brethren. Tell me their names and their titles.'
Dorn tried to grasp that vague recollection, tried to frame the questions that gnawed at him, but once more his perfect eidetic recall failed him. He could only see the phantoms of those moments. Holding on to them was like trying to capture smoke between his fingers.
'Their names were…' his mighty voice faltered. His brow creased in frustration. 'They were…'
To his horror, Dorn realised that he did not know. The awareness was there; he could almost see the shape of the knowledge out on the far horizon of his thoughts. But it retreated from his every effort to see it clearly. Each time he attempted to frame a memory of the lost, it was like fighting a tidal wave. Everything else is clear, but they are ghosts in my mind.
The Imperial Fist was experiencing an impossibility. Every known instant of his life was open to him, as if they were pages of a great book.
But not those moments.
'Something has been done to me.' The beginnings of a new fury built in his chest, boiling at the realisation of such an affront. 'You are behind this!' Dorn whirled, drawing his chainblade in a glittering arc of lethal metal, bringing it to aim at Malcador's wizened, cloak-wreathed form. 'You shrouded my memories! You invaded my mind… For that I should cut you down!'
The Sigillite showed no reaction to the threat. 'Not just yours. Guilliman's, and the others who met them.' He let his words bed in. 'It is extremely difficult to extract a reminiscence,' Malcador went on. 'Even in an ordinary human. In a brain as complex and perfectly engineered as that of a primarch, the task becomes herculean. Imagine a tree in the earth, rising from a web of roots.
How would one remove that without disturbing a single atom of the soil? Memory cannot be cut and patched like a mnemonic spool. It exists as a holographic thing, in multiple dimensions. But it can be adjusted.'
'My father allowed that?' Dorn's sword did not waver.
'He did not stop you.'
'Stop me?' The primarch's eyes narrowed.
Malcador slowly moved back, out of the ornate sword's killing arc. 'The… loss of the Second and the Eleventh was such a wound upon us, and it threatened the ideals at the heart of the Great Crusade. It would have ruined all that we had built in the drive to reunite humanity, and drive off our enemies. Steps had to be taken.' He met Dorn's hard gaze. 'The legionaries they left behind, leaderless and forsaken, were too great a resource to be discarded out of hand. They did not share the fate of their fathers. You and Roboute argued in their favour, but you do not recall it.' Malcador nodded to himself. 'It fell to me to see that they were attuned to new circumstances.'
'You robbed them of their memories.'
'I granted them a mercy!' Malcador replied, his tone wounded. 'A second chance!'
'What mercy is there in a lie?' Dorn thundered.
'Ask yourself!' The Sigillite aimed the burning head of his staff in the primarch's direction. 'You wish to know the truth, Rogal? It is this - what I shrouded in you was done by your command! You told me to do it. You and Roboute conceived of the scheme and granted me permission!'
Malcador briefly restores Dorn's memory - we don't see what it is, of course - and Dorn, now remembering, agrees that it was the right course of action.
“It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase
If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
mrFickle wrote: “It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase
If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
I mean, it was hinted they all got thrown at Guilliman anyway.
mrFickle wrote: “It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase
If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
I mean, it was hinted they all got thrown at Guilliman anyway.
Yes but if they were brainwashed and became UM and the UM apothecarys were not aware that they had a different gene sire, when they fell in combat their gene seed would have been collected and added to UM gene stocks. So does that mean not all UM are descended form RG.
If so this proves that mutation was not a problem with either of the missing primarchs and proves that the were very similar to RG in terms of not turning into wolves etc
For example if you made an SM with a DA gene stock but along side UM initiates and indoctrinated then into the UM how would know the difference without genetic testing
mrFickle wrote: “It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase
If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
I mean, it was hinted they all got thrown at Guilliman anyway.
Yes but if they were brainwashed and became UM and the UM apothecarys were not aware that they had a different gene sire, when they fell in combat their gene seed would have been collected and added to UM gene stocks. So does that mean not all UM are descended form RG.
If so this proves that mutation was not a problem with either of the missing primarchs and proves that the were very similar to RG in terms of not turning into wolves etc
For example if you made an SM with a DA gene stock but along side UM initiates and indoctrinated then into the UM how would know the difference without genetic testing
Or their geenseed was deliberately damaged / destroyed when (if) they joined the Ultras, or they all used the generic pre-primarch geenseed that all Legions used in the beginning...
One of the White Scars novels (Scars?) has a marine who was originally meant to be joining the Sons of Horus but was re-assigned to the White Scars at the last minute.
This conversation has split into two halves, with one part of the conversation being an out-of game discussion with bunch of people asserting that certain things happened and certain times and decsisions were made in a conscious way and others having a semi-in game perspective chat about possible fluff explanations fitting the modern writing.
I have next to me WD99, the original Adeptus Titanicus rulebook, Slaves to Darkness and the original Space Marine rulebook. Rogue Trader is downstairs somewhere, but not relevent to my point...
Things developed and changed, and not everything was written by the same person and therefore not at the same stage of development. I'm quite sure that even individuals made changes, backtracked, retconned and sidestepped, but the company certainly did.
Here is a fascinating little bit of writing from WD99, a preview of Slaves to Darkness. I am not sure if this is the very first mention of the "Treacher Legions" as I have not done an exhaustive search through previous White Dwarfs, but it is certainly an incredibly early example. Even from this up to Slaves to Darkness' final publication, there were VAST changes, and Adepticus Titanicus and Space Marine were both being developed at this time too, so there must have been huge amounts of overlap and contradiction built into the fluff. One of my favourite little nuggets is that huge numbers of people claim that it was Ollanius Pius was the Emperor's original saviour, not the lone Terminator. In fact, the story upon Horus' Battle Barge was published before the Ollanius Pius fluff, a fact that I have demonstrated previously.
Ultimately, GW employees have stated that two legions were left "uncrafted" for players ot create their own legions. At the time, it was at least implied that those legions did fight in the Horus Heresy, just that those records are completely lost.
Anyway, enjoy the lovely "On the Boil" from WD April 2020.
mrFickle wrote: “It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase
If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
I mean, it was hinted they all got thrown at Guilliman anyway.
Yes but if they were brainwashed and became UM and the UM apothecarys were not aware that they had a different gene sire, when they fell in combat their gene seed would have been collected and added to UM gene stocks. So does that mean not all UM are descended form RG.
If so this proves that mutation was not a problem with either of the missing primarchs and proves that the were very similar to RG in terms of not turning into wolves etc
For example if you made an SM with a DA gene stock but along side UM initiates and indoctrinated then into the UM how would know the difference without genetic testing
Or their geenseed was deliberately damaged / destroyed when (if) they joined the Ultras, or they all used the generic pre-primarch geenseed that all Legions used in the beginning...
One of the White Scars novels (Scars?) has a marine who was originally meant to be joining the Sons of Horus but was re-assigned to the White Scars at the last minute.
IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.
mrFickle wrote: “It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase
If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
I mean, it was hinted they all got thrown at Guilliman anyway.
Yes but if they were brainwashed and became UM and the UM apothecarys were not aware that they had a different gene sire, when they fell in combat their gene seed would have been collected and added to UM gene stocks. So does that mean not all UM are descended form RG.
If so this proves that mutation was not a problem with either of the missing primarchs and proves that the were very similar to RG in terms of not turning into wolves etc
For example if you made an SM with a DA gene stock but along side UM initiates and indoctrinated then into the UM how would know the difference without genetic testing
Or their geenseed was deliberately damaged / destroyed when (if) they joined the Ultras, or they all used the generic pre-primarch geenseed that all Legions used in the beginning...
One of the White Scars novels (Scars?) has a marine who was originally meant to be joining the Sons of Horus but was re-assigned to the White Scars at the last minute.
He was reassigned Pre-Implantation. They were doing bulk initial training before being sent off to their Legion and the Trainees had an idea of where they were supposed to be going based on where they were recruited from and all that. But the Scars needed bodies cause they were next to be mobilized on a large scale.
Fictional wrote: Yea, I never got that one. The "master tome", aka the Rogue Trader book, is quite clear in that there are 1000 chapters, yet they need to keep 2 founding legions "spare" so you can make your own?
It was in part due to the whole roman legion influence - the missing chapters mirrored the legions lost in the battle of teutoburg forest.
In terms of names, one author listed 'Rubinek' as the Primarch of the Iron Hearts chapter, ("Hell in a Bottle" by Simon Jowett, part of "Into the Maelstrom" ). Not further supported by GW.
Andy Chambers Valedictors were also once listed as a first founding chapter but later retconned
On this topic I often see the point raise that GW created the 2 missing leaf ions so you could play your own custom legion, but that doesn’t work in the modern 40k. They don’t have any purpose except to add some intrigue to the story. One day GW will reveal the truth and no one will like it
Games Workshop's original intention was to make Legion II and XI your own Legion/Chapter, but as the lore has been expanded in great detail, there is no getting out of this.
Thoughts?
I think this is the one piece of the narrative that can remain ambiguous. Even while Guilliman or one of the chaos guys could shed light on the subject the mystery is not central to either the heresy or any of the other story lines. The fans will be better served if this is left unanswered.
Knowing GW though they will eventually milk it for every $$$ they can sooner or later.
mrFickle wrote: One day GW will reveal the truth and no one will like it
I always imagined these Legions were deleted from the records as a result of things that happened during the Horus Heresy - and that the 'purging' was a recognition that whatever terrible things they had done had been - in the end - redeemed in some way. So - with the passing of all record of them was also expunged all record of their misdeeds - they are forgiven and forgotten. As opposed to those legions which rebelled and which remain 'traitor' legions.
Of course - I never imagined that the Horus Heresy would even emerge from a mythic past (it was ten thousand years ago after all!) so I fondly imagined we had many thousand of years in which we could create diverse and colourful histories. In fact, the Horus Heresy idea was picked up and became a strong theme for the 'epic' game and later for 40K in other ways - but it was also meant to be mysterious and 'beyond knowing' as I conceived it.
pm713 wrote: IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.
Yeah - I think it's something people assumed (including myself) given that Legions have shared recruits and some Marines pre-date their Primarchs, but as VictorVonTzeentch said the recruits could be pre-implantation and they still had some Primarch genetic material after they were scattered.
GW/BL frequently revising their history doesn't help things - the recent "Saturnine" takes these things in a new direction...
pm713 wrote: IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.
Yeah - I think it's something people assumed (including myself) given that Legions have shared recruits and some Marines pre-date their Primarchs, but as VictorVonTzeentch said the recruits could be pre-implantation and they still had some Primarch genetic material after they were scattered.
GW/BL frequently revising their history doesn't help things - the recent "Saturnine" takes these things in a new direction...
mrFickle wrote: “It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase
If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
pm713 wrote: IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.
Yeah - I think it's something people assumed (including myself) given that Legions have shared recruits and some Marines pre-date their Primarchs, but as VictorVonTzeentch said the recruits could be pre-implantation and they still had some Primarch genetic material after they were scattered.
GW/BL frequently revising their history doesn't help things - the recent "Saturnine" takes these things in a new direction...
How so?
MAJOR spoilers -
Spoiler:
It introduces Erda, a Perpetual who is the 'mother' of the Marines & Primarchs - she worked with Amar Astarte to create the Marines, and her genetic code was used for the first Marines and the Primarchs (along with the Emperors). She's also the one who scattered the Primarchs, not Chaos, as she didn't want the Emperor getting them. She also has one of the original 'template' Marines (created before the Primarchs) called Leetu as her bodyguard.
She seems a bit Mary-Sue, so hopefully they'll either do something unexpected with her, or forget she exists altogether...
pm713 wrote: IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.
Yeah - I think it's something people assumed (including myself) given that Legions have shared recruits and some Marines pre-date their Primarchs, but as VictorVonTzeentch said the recruits could be pre-implantation and they still had some Primarch genetic material after they were scattered.
GW/BL frequently revising their history doesn't help things - the recent "Saturnine" takes these things in a new direction...
How so?
MAJOR spoilers -
Spoiler:
It introduces Erda, a Perpetual who is the 'mother' of the Marines & Primarchs - she worked with Amar Astarte to create the Marines, and her genetic code was used for the first Marines and the Primarchs (along with the Emperors). She's also the one who scattered the Primarchs, not Chaos, as she didn't want the Emperor getting them. She also has one of the original 'template' Marines (created before the Primarchs) called Leetu as her bodyguard.
She seems a bit Mary-Sue, so hopefully they'll either do something unexpected with her, or forget she exists altogether...
Wat. Enough with the perpetuals and other rubbish.
pm713 wrote: IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.
Yeah - I think it's something people assumed (including myself) given that Legions have shared recruits and some Marines pre-date their Primarchs, but as VictorVonTzeentch said the recruits could be pre-implantation and they still had some Primarch genetic material after they were scattered.
GW/BL frequently revising their history doesn't help things - the recent "Saturnine" takes these things in a new direction...
How so?
MAJOR spoilers -
Spoiler:
It introduces Erda, a Perpetual who is the 'mother' of the Marines & Primarchs - she worked with Amar Astarte to create the Marines, and her genetic code was used for the first Marines and the Primarchs (along with the Emperors). She's also the one who scattered the Primarchs, not Chaos, as she didn't want the Emperor getting them. She also has one of the original 'template' Marines (created before the Primarchs) called Leetu as her bodyguard.
She seems a bit Mary-Sue, so hopefully they'll either do something unexpected with her, or forget she exists altogether...
Wat. Enough with the perpetuals and other rubbish.
While you can't believe the visions Chaos will give you in the HH Horus himself was the one who facilitated Chaos scattering the Primarchs. I have a hazy memory of the II and XI Primarchs being mentioned in that book too. Didn't Horus mention something about bloodshed being avoided if he just killed the embryonic Primarchs then?
pm713 wrote: IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.
Yeah - I think it's something people assumed (including myself) given that Legions have shared recruits and some Marines pre-date their Primarchs, but as VictorVonTzeentch said the recruits could be pre-implantation and they still had some Primarch genetic material after they were scattered.
GW/BL frequently revising their history doesn't help things - the recent "Saturnine" takes these things in a new direction...
How so?
MAJOR spoilers -
Spoiler:
It introduces Erda, a Perpetual who is the 'mother' of the Marines & Primarchs - she worked with Amar Astarte to create the Marines, and her genetic code was used for the first Marines and the Primarchs (along with the Emperors). She's also the one who scattered the Primarchs, not Chaos, as she didn't want the Emperor getting them. She also has one of the original 'template' Marines (created before the Primarchs) called Leetu as her bodyguard.
She seems a bit Mary-Sue, so hopefully they'll either do something unexpected with her, or forget she exists altogether...
pm713 wrote: IIRC there isn't 'generic' geneseed. The geneseeds were refined after the relevant Primarchs were found but most of them are theoretically the same. Like Ultramarines and Dark Angels wouldn't have much difference in their geneseed. Marines with abnormalities are generally caused by external factors like radiation.
Yeah - I think it's something people assumed (including myself) given that Legions have shared recruits and some Marines pre-date their Primarchs, but as VictorVonTzeentch said the recruits could be pre-implantation and they still had some Primarch genetic material after they were scattered.
GW/BL frequently revising their history doesn't help things - the recent "Saturnine" takes these things in a new direction...
How so?
MAJOR spoilers -
Spoiler:
It introduces Erda, a Perpetual who is the 'mother' of the Marines & Primarchs - she worked with Amar Astarte to create the Marines, and her genetic code was used for the first Marines and the Primarchs (along with the Emperors). She's also the one who scattered the Primarchs, not Chaos, as she didn't want the Emperor getting them. She also has one of the original 'template' Marines (created before the Primarchs) called Leetu as her bodyguard.
She seems a bit Mary-Sue, so hopefully they'll either do something unexpected with her, or forget she exists altogether...
Not trying to plug or anything but it directly references the topic of the thread. An interview Thorpe did with MWG recently so some might find this a worthy listen.
So let me get this straight??? There is a black Library book that confirms, as a fact, that it not the forces of chaos that scattered the primarchs but a one of the scientists that helped create them?
I mean this is a dramatic shift in cannon as the scattering of primarchs is referenced quite heavily in codexes etc. Oh and it sucks
Aash wrote: So is Saturnine available, when I looked for it I saw the release a date as late July (23rd I think?)
The Collectors / Special edition came out at the start of the year (Feb/March?) but it seems to have disappeared from the BL site.
mrFickle wrote: So let me get this straight??? There is a black Library book that confirms, as a fact, that it not the forces of chaos that scattered the primarchs but a one of the scientists that helped create them?
I mean this is a dramatic shift in cannon as the scattering of primarchs is referenced quite heavily in codexes etc. Oh and it sucks
The character is telling the story in-universe:
Spoiler:
Saturnine wrote:‘The primarchs,’ John whispered. ‘The primarchs,’ she said, with a small nod. ‘They’re not actual Perpetuate, in any biological sense. They’re the artificial equivalents of the Perpetuals, functionally immortal beings born from His blood and power and vigour, coded to accelerate His programme even faster. They were designed to live long enough to see His plan through to the end, and not die away so quickly, the way humans did, and they were indoctrinated from birth to follow His word, and not have opinions of their own, like naturally occurring Perpetuals. They were made to service His dream. He took what nature had wrought in the Perpetuals, and He built His own pathologised version. And through them, their genetic lines, the Legions.’ ‘He didn’t do that alone.’ Erda was silent for a moment. Outside, the desert air sighed, and the neck bells of livestock clunked. ‘He did not,’ she said. ‘I was still with Him then, one of the last few. Me, my colleague Astarte, a few others. I had misgivings, we all did, but He was very convincing. Compelling. And by then, He had become more powerful than ever. He needed a geneticist to work with Him, and that was my art. And He needed a biological source. A gene-stock rare enough to mix with His own. A Perpetual.’ ‘You.’ ‘Me. I was the other source. A genetic donor. He is the Father of Mankind. I am the surrogate mother. And the clinician. And the midwife. We made twenty fine sons. But He allowed me no influence. I was just a biological instrument. And once they were born, I began to properly understand the future He had prepared for them. The bitter destiny. The aggressively rapid and unnaturally savage evolutionary jump-start He was driving towards. No good ever comes of coercing nature, John. Through His sons, He would force the human race into the future, force it into submission, and defy the warp to do it. He had built artificial Perpetual-analogues and weaponised them, ready to resist the unbending cosmos. He was planning a crusade to retake the stars. To claim back in a bloody century or two what had taken millennia to lose in the first place. That was when I stepped away too. Astarte stayed, and finished the work on the Legion gene-build. But I left. I was heartbroken and bereft, but I stepped away.’ ‘No, not quite,’ said John. ‘This part I know. Eldrad told me. You didn’t just step away, Erda. You tried to stop Him.’ ‘I tried to save my sons.’ ‘You scattered them.’ She sat forward, and stared at the ground, her hands across her mouth. ‘I did. I took them from Him. I cast them onto the tides to spare them from His terrible ambition.’ ‘gak,’ John murmured. ‘What did He do?’ ‘Raged, for a long while. I was gone by then. I hid for a long time. But He never tried to find me. I always thought that odd. I always expected His vengeance, for He could be vindictive, but it never came. Eventually, I came here, a place I’d always loved. I was born not far from here. I withdrew from the world, and He never came looking for me.’ She glanced at him, and smiled sadly. ‘Because, I suppose, it was academic by then. He had moved on, fired and driven, as always. He sent the Astartes on their crusade anyway. A programme of reconquest, as He had always planned, but in truth it was just an excuse to find His sons. And His scattered sons were found again, of course, and returned to His side. I had failed. My efforts merely delayed His programme. I tried, John, but I did not stop Him.’
From this, the "twenty fine sons" bit bugs me - did she not notice Alpharius / Omegon, did she not want to tell John about them, or something else?
pm713 wrote: Well that just makes no sense because they blatantly don't. Example A being Magnus who was told not to do something and immediately did it.
Amar Astarte wasn't that good - Ezekiel Sedayne had to fix her work on the Black Carapace, for example. I'm not surprised that things she worked on had 'bugs'.
pm713 wrote:Well that just makes no sense because they blatantly don't. Example A being Magnus who was told not to do something and immediately did it.
That very well could be either a case of the Emperor and Erda being mistaken on just how much free will the Primarchs had (another box ticked in the 'Emperor vastly overestimates his abilities'), or a direct result of the Primarchs being scattered, and their new upbringings giving them far more freedom than they would have had had they not stayed.
pm713 wrote:Well that just makes no sense because they blatantly don't. Example A being Magnus who was told not to do something and immediately did it.
That very well could be either a case of the Emperor and Erda being mistaken on just how much free will the Primarchs had (another box ticked in the 'Emperor vastly overestimates his abilities'), or a direct result of the Primarchs being scattered, and their new upbringings giving them far more freedom than they would have had had they not stayed.
The first makes more sense to me. If it was a biological thing then they'd remain bound to him but nurture (or lack thereof) explains a lot of the Primarchs fairly well.
There's also "The Last Council", which is mentioned further down that Reddit page.
I went through that thread, and it gave me a thought.
So it was Horus, Khan, and Alpharius of all Primarchs that went. Obviously Alpharius cared about them enough in some manner to want to do such a thing, and we don't know a lot about his history overall. Is our lack of information perhaps related to the fact he's connected to the lost two a good amount and the reconstructed memories kinda show we also don't know a lot about him either? I dunno just a thought.
pm713 wrote: Why is everyone in the Imperium bad at maths? There are 21 Primarchs.
Is that saying Perpetuals are biologically forced to follow the Emperor? Because that would manage to be dumber than they already are.
We don’t know that omegon was in the pod with alpharius. We don’t know much about his past at all. Something may have happened in the warp to spilt the souls across 2 bodies or even after he was found
Automatically Appended Next Post: At this rate GW will eventually tell the story of the 2 missing primarchs. I have a feeling now that there was some sort of perpetual rebellion against the emperor and some how they had their own options and sixes against the emperor. I also assume all other perpetual shave been killed of, but like the hunting down of the Jedi by Darth Vader.
It’s looking like the emperor wasn’t entirely special, amongst the perpetual humans, until we went to molech and got his powers from the warp
mrFickle wrote: It’s looking like the emperor wasn’t entirely special, amongst the perpetual humans, until we went to molech and got his powers from the warp
Spoiler:
Saturnine wrote:
‘You’re the most powerful of your kind,’ he said. ‘I mean, apart from Him.’
‘None of us have ever been as powerful as Him,’ she said. She sat on the heap of cushions, leaned back, and gazed at the silk canopy, which hung over her like a regal baldachin. ‘That’s always been the problem. He’s not just more powerful, He is a different order of magnitude. A freak.’
‘Really?’ That made him smile.
‘An aberration, even in terms of the Perpetual line, which is itself an aberration. You asked why we had never come together to stop Him or contain Him. There are many reasons, most of them trivial or personal, but the main one is that even together, en masse, the Perpetuals could not begin to match His power. We have many talents, many powers. We are what we are, transcendent mortals, who have often influenced the course of human life and achieved great things. We have been guides and steersmen, pilots and mentors, sometimes to whole nations and peoples. But He is something else, altogether. An engine of change, a font of power.’
‘A god?’ he asked.
‘Not at all. At heart, He is a man. He has a personality, He has traits and flaws. All of those are magnified, of course. He is, truly, quite wonderful. Kind. Funny.’
‘Honestly?’
‘Yes Funny. Witty. Articulate. Passionate. Incisive. Clever beyond genius. Charismatic. Devoted. Driven. Determined. From the earliest days of His life, He did what we all did. He saw His own power and tried to use it. He tried to steer mankind towards a better future. He tried to raise the human race up to achieve its potential. And, of course, because of His power, He was rather more effective than most of us.’
pm713 wrote: Why is everyone in the Imperium bad at maths? There are 21 Primarchs.
Is that saying Perpetuals are biologically forced to follow the Emperor? Because that would manage to be dumber than they already are.
We don’t know that omegon was in the pod with alpharius. We don’t know much about his past at all. Something may have happened in the warp to spilt the souls across 2 bodies or even after he was found
In one of the HH novels when Horus is looking back at the pods it mentions Alpharius and Omegon were in the same pod which wasn't designed for 2 primachs.
mrFickle wrote: It’s looking like the emperor wasn’t entirely special, amongst the perpetual humans, until we went to molech and got his powers from the warp
Spoiler:
Saturnine wrote:
‘You’re the most powerful of your kind,’ he said. ‘I mean, apart from Him.’
‘None of us have ever been as powerful as Him,’ she said. She sat on the heap of cushions, leaned back, and gazed at the silk canopy, which hung over her like a regal baldachin. ‘That’s always been the problem. He’s not just more powerful, He is a different order of magnitude. A freak.’
‘Really?’ That made him smile.
‘An aberration, even in terms of the Perpetual line, which is itself an aberration. You asked why we had never come together to stop Him or contain Him. There are many reasons, most of them trivial or personal, but the main one is that even together, en masse, the Perpetuals could not begin to match His power. We have many talents, many powers. We are what we are, transcendent mortals, who have often influenced the course of human life and achieved great things. We have been guides and steersmen, pilots and mentors, sometimes to whole nations and peoples. But He is something else, altogether. An engine of change, a font of power.’
‘A god?’ he asked.
‘Not at all. At heart, He is a man. He has a personality, He has traits and flaws. All of those are magnified, of course. He is, truly, quite wonderful. Kind. Funny.’
‘Honestly?’
‘Yes Funny. Witty. Articulate. Passionate. Incisive. Clever beyond genius. Charismatic. Devoted. Driven. Determined. From the earliest days of His life, He did what we all did. He saw His own power and tried to use it. He tried to steer mankind towards a better future. He tried to raise the human race up to achieve its potential. And, of course, because of His power, He was rather more effective than most of us.’
Sounds like rose coloured glasses to me. He is not clever beyond genius at all.
pm713 wrote: Why is everyone in the Imperium bad at maths? There are 21 Primarchs.
Is that saying Perpetuals are biologically forced to follow the Emperor? Because that would manage to be dumber than they already are.
We don’t know that omegon was in the pod with alpharius. We don’t know much about his past at all. Something may have happened in the warp to spilt the souls across 2 bodies or even after he was found
Automatically Appended Next Post: At this rate GW will eventually tell the story of the 2 missing primarchs. I have a feeling now that there was some sort of perpetual rebellion against the emperor and some how they had their own options and sixes against the emperor. I also assume all other perpetual shave been killed of, but like the hunting down of the Jedi by Darth Vader.
It’s looking like the emperor wasn’t entirely special, amongst the perpetual humans, until we went to molech and got his powers from the warp
That doesn't really follow. He got something specific on Molech relating to the creation of the primarchs, it doesn't mean he didn't have the absurdly powerful psychic abilities that, canonically, he was born (rebirthed) with.
Does all this reveal where the other perpetuals came from? The number of perpetuals popping up in stories feels like the mass shaman scuicide/rebirth will be retconned out because he may aswell just come from where the rest of the perpetuals came from, genetic anomaly, but has more power than the rest
mrFickle wrote: It’s looking like the emperor wasn’t entirely special, amongst the perpetual humans, until we went to molech and got his powers from the warp
Spoiler:
Saturnine wrote:
‘You’re the most powerful of your kind,’ he said. ‘I mean, apart from Him.’
‘None of us have ever been as powerful as Him,’ she said. She sat on the heap of cushions, leaned back, and gazed at the silk canopy, which hung over her like a regal baldachin. ‘That’s always been the problem. He’s not just more powerful, He is a different order of magnitude. A freak.’
‘Really?’ That made him smile.
‘An aberration, even in terms of the Perpetual line, which is itself an aberration. You asked why we had never come together to stop Him or contain Him. There are many reasons, most of them trivial or personal, but the main one is that even together, en masse, the Perpetuals could not begin to match His power. We have many talents, many powers. We are what we are, transcendent mortals, who have often influenced the course of human life and achieved great things. We have been guides and steersmen, pilots and mentors, sometimes to whole nations and peoples. But He is something else, altogether. An engine of change, a font of power.’
‘A god?’ he asked.
‘Not at all. At heart, He is a man. He has a personality, He has traits and flaws. All of those are magnified, of course. He is, truly, quite wonderful. Kind. Funny.’
‘Honestly?’
‘Yes Funny. Witty. Articulate. Passionate. Incisive. Clever beyond genius. Charismatic. Devoted. Driven. Determined. From the earliest days of His life, He did what we all did. He saw His own power and tried to use it. He tried to steer mankind towards a better future. He tried to raise the human race up to achieve its potential. And, of course, because of His power, He was rather more effective than most of us.’
Sounds like rose coloured glasses to me. He is not clever beyond genius at all.
From the context that's been posted so far, this character doesn't sound like someone with cause to own such glasses.
mrFickle wrote: Does all this reveal where the other perpetuals came from? The number of perpetuals popping up in stories feels like the mass shaman scuicide/rebirth will be retconned out because he may aswell just come from where the rest of the perpetuals came from, genetic anomaly, but has more power than the rest
Erda thinks they're the next evolution of humanity - Homo Superior (like the X-Men).
mrFickle wrote: It’s looking like the emperor wasn’t entirely special, amongst the perpetual humans, until we went to molech and got his powers from the warp
Spoiler:
Saturnine wrote:
‘You’re the most powerful of your kind,’ he said. ‘I mean, apart from Him.’
‘None of us have ever been as powerful as Him,’ she said. She sat on the heap of cushions, leaned back, and gazed at the silk canopy, which hung over her like a regal baldachin. ‘That’s always been the problem. He’s not just more powerful, He is a different order of magnitude. A freak.’
‘Really?’ That made him smile.
‘An aberration, even in terms of the Perpetual line, which is itself an aberration. You asked why we had never come together to stop Him or contain Him. There are many reasons, most of them trivial or personal, but the main one is that even together, en masse, the Perpetuals could not begin to match His power. We have many talents, many powers. We are what we are, transcendent mortals, who have often influenced the course of human life and achieved great things. We have been guides and steersmen, pilots and mentors, sometimes to whole nations and peoples. But He is something else, altogether. An engine of change, a font of power.’
‘A god?’ he asked.
‘Not at all. At heart, He is a man. He has a personality, He has traits and flaws. All of those are magnified, of course. He is, truly, quite wonderful. Kind. Funny.’
‘Honestly?’
‘Yes Funny. Witty. Articulate. Passionate. Incisive. Clever beyond genius. Charismatic. Devoted. Driven. Determined. From the earliest days of His life, He did what we all did. He saw His own power and tried to use it. He tried to steer mankind towards a better future. He tried to raise the human race up to achieve its potential. And, of course, because of His power, He was rather more effective than most of us.’
Sounds like rose coloured glasses to me. He is not clever beyond genius at all.
From the context that's been posted so far, this character doesn't sound like someone with cause to own such glasses.
When someone beats you, it's often easier to remember them as being superior rather than you screwed up (or they got lucky).
mrFickle wrote: Does all this reveal where the other perpetuals came from? The number of perpetuals popping up in stories feels like the mass shaman scuicide/rebirth will be retconned out because he may aswell just come from where the rest of the perpetuals came from, genetic anomaly, but has more power than the rest
They seem to pop up randomly across generations - one of them was an Argonaut (Ol Pearson IIRC) in classical Greece while others seem to be contemporary with the Great Crusade (IIRC Grammaticus met the Emperor during unification in his first life).
If by ‘shamans’ you now read ‘perpetuals’ it’s possible the Emperor was still formed from a suicide pact of all the existing perpetuals in 8,000 BC as per old fluff, which would explain why he’s so much more powerful than the rest, but with the currently existing perpetuals simply being ones who have been born since.
mrFickle wrote: “It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase
If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
I mean, it was hinted they all got thrown at Guilliman anyway.
Yes but if they were brainwashed and became UM and the UM apothecarys were not aware that they had a different gene sire, when they fell in combat their gene seed would have been collected and added to UM gene stocks. So does that mean not all UM are descended form RG.
If so this proves that mutation was not a problem with either of the missing primarchs and proves that the were very similar to RG in terms of not turning into wolves etc
For example if you made an SM with a DA gene stock but along side UM initiates and indoctrinated then into the UM how would know the difference without genetic testing
Presumably the geneseed has to match the implanted organs. Otherwise the crusade-era Imperium could simply have used Horus’ geneseed (the first primarch found) for every legion. So that raises the interesting problem that if marines from the missing legions were distributed among the eighteen before the heresy, the legions apothecaries must have been made aware there was something unusual about them. If only we could ask our friend Fabius Bile...
mrFickle wrote: “It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase
If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
I mean, it was hinted they all got thrown at Guilliman anyway.
Yes but if they were brainwashed and became UM and the UM apothecarys were not aware that they had a different gene sire, when they fell in combat their gene seed would have been collected and added to UM gene stocks. So does that mean not all UM are descended form RG.
If so this proves that mutation was not a problem with either of the missing primarchs and proves that the were very similar to RG in terms of not turning into wolves etc
For example if you made an SM with a DA gene stock but along side UM initiates and indoctrinated then into the UM how would know the difference without genetic testing
Presumably the geneseed has to match the implanted organs. Otherwise the crusade-era Imperium could simply have used Horus’ geneseed (the first primarch found) for every legion. So that raises the interesting problem that if marines from the missing legions were distributed among the eighteen before the heresy, the legions apothecaries must have been made aware there was something unusual about them. If only we could ask our friend Fabius Bile...
At least five Legions have different geneseeds (Alpha Legion, Salamander, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons and Raven Guard) so it's not unreasonable they'd all be different in some way.
Hot take (well not really considering how people feel about GW), but I believe we'll get both legions down the road so that Games Workshop can shill another line of marines with vastly different wargear/rules but still in that power armor flavor everyone likes. If they can shoehorn Primaris into the canon then they can explain away why these 2 legions were missing for 10,000+ years.
mrFickle wrote: “It threatened the ideals at the heart of the crusade” this is a very interesting turn of phrase
If the remaining soldiers of the lost legion had their memories wiped they would have fallen in battle and their geen seed gathered and used to create more astartes, surely?
I mean, it was hinted they all got thrown at Guilliman anyway.
Yes but if they were brainwashed and became UM and the UM apothecarys were not aware that they had a different gene sire, when they fell in combat their gene seed would have been collected and added to UM gene stocks. So does that mean not all UM are descended form RG.
If so this proves that mutation was not a problem with either of the missing primarchs and proves that the were very similar to RG in terms of not turning into wolves etc
For example if you made an SM with a DA gene stock but along side UM initiates and indoctrinated then into the UM how would know the difference without genetic testing
Presumably the geneseed has to match the implanted organs. Otherwise the crusade-era Imperium could simply have used Horus’ geneseed (the first primarch found) for every legion. So that raises the interesting problem that if marines from the missing legions were distributed among the eighteen before the heresy, the legions apothecaries must have been made aware there was something unusual about them. If only we could ask our friend Fabius Bile...
At least five Legions have different geneseeds (Alpha Legion, Salamander, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons and Raven Guard) so it's not unreasonable they'd all be different in some way.
I’d taken it as read that every legion had distinct geneseed. My point was that the example above of geneseeds from II and/or XI getting mixed up with the Ultramarines wouldn’t work, as if it did, the Emperor’s Children’s backstory (among others) wouldn’t make sense.
Can't Progenoid Glands be removed any time after they mature, but because they assist with the regulation of the other organs they usually keep the chest ones implanted until death and harvest the neck ones once they mature?
It might have been a case where all the 2nd and 11th legionaries had their chest Progenoid Glands removed before being transferred, and I guess the Scouts/new recruits just got a bolt shell to the back of the head.
Spartan089 wrote: Hot take (well not really considering how people feel about GW), but I believe we'll get both legions down the road so that Games Workshop can shill another line of marines with vastly different wargear/rules but still in that power armor flavor everyone likes. If they can shoehorn Primaris into the canon then they can explain away why these 2 legions were missing for 10,000+ years.
Maybe they discovered some necron tech and transferred their souls in to mechanical bodies and now lay dormant waiting to.....err.....get vengeance
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaconCatBug wrote: Can't Progenoid Glands be removed any time after they mature, but because they assist with the regulation of the other organs they usually keep the chest ones implanted until death and harvest the neck ones once they mature?
It might have been a case where all the 2nd and 11th legionaries had their chest Progenoid Glands removed before being transferred, and I guess the Scouts/new recruits just got a bolt shell to the back of the head.
Still apothecarys would have been reporting an unusual number of marines missing a gland which would have warranted some sort of analysis
mrFickle wrote: Still apothecarys would have been reporting an unusual number of marines missing a gland which would have warranted some sort of analysis
And Rowboat would have taken any uppity Apothecary to the side and give them a stern Talking To.
mrFickle wrote: Still apothecarys would have been reporting an unusual number of marines missing a gland which would have warranted some sort of analysis
And Rowboat would have taken any uppity Apothecary to the side and give them a stern Talking To.
When they are are spread across the galaxy? Across 18 legions and 100,000s of troop
mrFickle wrote: Still apothecarys would have been reporting an unusual number of marines missing a gland which would have warranted some sort of analysis
And Rowboat would have taken any uppity Apothecary to the side and give them a stern Talking To.
When they are are spread across the galaxy? Across 18 legions and 100,000s of troop
The Implications from the stories are that they weren't spread across all 18 Legions. They were given to the Ultramarines, and maybe the Imperial Fists (at least from the story with Dorn that sounds possible).
Sangy mentions to Horus after killing one of his own, that he doesnt want the Emps to find out about his legions actions. Horus is shocked, but understands that Sangy doesnt want to suffer the same fate as 2/11. So they both know what happened.
Said legionary attacked his primarch, after quietly, sitting there and sipping blood til the primarch turned up. Then went loon.
Nothing Malcador hates more than a traitor. Which is where most of the problems begin if you ask me.
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