So I’m new to 40k and tabletop gaming in general but am a fast learner and have stared snooping around for local gaming groups where I can start playing. I am kind of nervous though as whilst I’m sure it’s not as bad of an issue as say a decade ago is their still stigma to women playing 40k on her lonesome? I’m aware this hobby is more male orientated but I’m optimistic that regardless I will still be treated fairly and be welcomed into the group. If not though do you guys have any advice for me? What should I expect and be aware of in general with 40k gaming groups and how can I best go about earning the respect of my fellow gamers and modellers? I really don’t want to be seen as “the girl” in the group and simply be treated like everyone else.
Welcome to the hobby! No particular advice if not to simply enjoy it.
I don't know the people you'll be in contact with, but I don't see why any of them should have any problem playing and talinking about 40K with a girl.
The gaming club I'm part of is quite large and there's a good percentage of girls, it's not something that uncommon to see.
If you happen to find some weirdos, just ignore and avoid them.
Mistresspaige wrote: So I’m new to 40k and tabletop gaming in general but am a fast learner and have stared snooping around for local gaming groups where I can start playing. I am kind of nervous though as whilst I’m sure it’s not as bad of an issue as say a decade ago is their still stigma to women playing 40k on her lonesome? I’m aware this hobby is more male orientated but I’m optimistic that regardless I will still be treated fairly and be welcomed into the group. If not though do you guys have any advice for me? What should I expect and be aware of in general with 40k gaming groups and how can I best go about earning the respect of my fellow gamers and modellers? I really don’t want to be seen as “the girl” in the group and simply be treated like everyone else.
i mean, community , is local.
See, for every horror story on dakka you find 5 decent 3 good and one perfect community at the very least, else this hobby would've died out long ago. The question is, which of those communities fit you, it's kinda like hikingshoes you pick the one that fits perfectly, especially if you intend to go hiking, else you get feet that look like RS first timers of urbanfolks that failed to use 2 pairs of socks.
respect of your fellow gamers you earn by not beeing a dill weed and respecting them, most in the hobby are laid back , atleast in my experience, but mileage might vary like i said and depends on the local community.
Be yourself and remember if you do get any comments levelled at you (which I hope you wouldn't) it's there weakness not yours.
You don't have to pove yourself but like any new player of any sex people relax when they realise that your good fun to play with I.e you don't throw a fit if you lose or you don't cheat.
Yeah this is just going to vary store to store; there's two local stores and a GW store in my area, one of the FLGS's and the GW are both great places, the other FLGS is run by a real creep and is a place to avoid. All you can do is show up and see what the vibe is yourself.
Thanks guys you’ve put my mind more at ease. I figured I should be fine. Obviously dills lurk in all community groups but hopefully my local communities will be as accommodating as you guys are. I’ve been fortunate in previous dnd groups that most are pretty swell and down to earth and that makes me optimistic for the local 40k community as well. I’ve probably just read to many bad stories about people being arses about it and had a perceived notion it was common in the tabletop community.
Honestly just be yourself and try and find a good group. Sadly there will always be Idiots, and hopefully you find a group without them.
I have found now days, The geeky space is way more welcoming. And even if there is a troublemaker, stores and clubs tend to not want to really be seen as enabling them.
Specific Advice is always hard, But i think best place to start is Stores and clubs run at schools. Even if the Club is not school run, Schools will have a robust Policy in place for the most part. So tend to have good Community.
Marxist artist wrote: Be yourself and remember if you do get any comments levelled at you (which I hope you wouldn't) it's there weakness not yours.
You don't have to pove yourself but like any new player of any sex people relax when they realise that your good fun to play with I.e you don't throw a fit if you lose or you don't cheat.
Good luck , enjoy and may the dice gods be kind.
Thankyou Marxist. Yeah that’s not a problem I’m super down to earth and always play with fun and laughter at the forefront. Winning isn’t a big deal with me as long as everyone enjoys themselves.
Haha well if it’s anything like during my dnd sessions I think I’m screwed haha!
The question is about people acting it out right, not actual judging, because that people do to everyone always.
I don't think I have seen people act out against other people in face to face situations, unless two things happened. They realy hated each other or there were close to zero chance they would see the other party ever again.
Should be fine to be fair.
Generally a lot of different gaming groups about (tons in the south of the UK)
Granted, one or two may have your typical people in there, but just walk away from those.
If a group is willing to tolerate someone acting like that it’s a red flag on the whole group.
I’d say the only time you may have a higher chance of running into complete dicks is during higher end tournaments, but that’s sadly something everyone has to suffer.
Just remember that online people tend to be far swifter to complain than compliment things. As noted above for all the "my group was horrible" stories there are dozens more happy stories that just don't get told.
Overread wrote: Just remember that online people tend to be far swifter to complain than compliment things. As noted above for all the "my group was horrible" stories there are dozens more happy stories that just don't get told.
what Over done said the broader interwebs is a very questionable barometer to gauge hobby stuff as handling the truth awkward, attention seeking and flat out lies is par for the course, local FB or whatever for groups is a bit more reliable for getting a feel for how things lie locally
just dont wup them too often and it should be fine
Over the year in my mtg hobby I have witnessed a lot of bad treatment of girls. I know girl streamers on twitter who complains about it. I would assume that yes, you will be treated diferently by some.
That being said, girls get trated differently in many arias in life. How bad it is depends on group to group. For the most part I think you will be fine.
I say girl. I mean non boys, I do not yet have the non binery vocabulary all inn.
Also when I grew up I thought girls and boys both played magic because that was what I was used to. These things will vary from hobby to hobby and location to location.
You will find more or less the same amount of decent people/aholes than any other community or gaming group.
PS what I really want to say is that if you find one or a couple of dbags do not let that discourage you. There are some of those as they are everywhere, but do not represent the overall community.
I would recommend to look for a club or store that also runs D&D/roleplaying games etc... because in those the percentage of girls is much higher and lets say that people, is more... used to their presence.
In my store for example we have never have a problem with someone being awkward or unwelcoming to women for two reasons: We are all a bunch of good people and the actual store owner is a woman.
There has been a couple of people that are... different but it has nothing to do with women and just that they are in some form of the authistic espectrum. They are nice but they are socially unaware most of the time of when they are doing stuff that they should not be (Like when one asked a tanned
10 years old child if he was a gipsy in front of his mother )
Depends entirely on the community. Been in a lot of stores and IME reactions will range from the below (as put in song by Tripod).
all the way to them resenting you infringing on their boy's club. I'm a guy an experienced that one myself when we went to the ol' Veteran's night in the early 2000's in our local GW. Every. Single. Face turned around at once and they looked at us like we'd walked into the wrong neighbourhood. Though you'll more than likely experience the former. Trust me, I've seen it and it's a tad cringey at times.
Anyone can play 40K. If you want to play 40K, then go places with other people and play 40K, and let no one stop you on your fun journey of throwing dice and achieving victory!
Don’t have any problems hereabouts, but then I’m in the ‘Wastelands of the North’, and people will just think you’re a Hippy, because all the wimmin are chained to the kitchen sink.
Having played d&d, I assume you are familiar with Knights of the Dinner Table?
Can I suggest you follow Sarah’s example, and have your own dice, know the rules, and be ready to play :-)
Marxist artist wrote: Be yourself and remember if you do get any comments levelled at you (which I hope you wouldn't) it's there weakness not yours.
You don't have to pove yourself but like any new player of any sex people relax when they realise that your good fun to play with I.e you don't throw a fit if you lose or you don't cheat.
Good luck , enjoy and may the dice gods be kind.
I think now more than ever it is incumbent upon other men to speak up when they see weird or creepy behavior.
We cant sit by and shrug it off like we used to. Women shouldn't be alone to deal with that burden.
And this isnt directed at any particular person. It's just my thoughts on how we can all do better.
Lol I like how everyone knows how to act until they hear "Uhm, who is Paige and why is she spending eight hours rolling dice with you?" and "Why are you spending all this time with another woman?"
Just sayin, some of the boyz are gonna need a pass before it's okay to crack open a few cold ones with you, and I thought perhaps you should be aware of it if you aren't. It isn't always about prejudice folks.
Mistresspaige wrote: So I’m new to 40k and tabletop gaming in general but am a fast learner and have stared snooping around for local gaming groups where I can start playing. I am kind of nervous though as whilst I’m sure it’s not as bad of an issue as say a decade ago is their still stigma to women playing 40k on her lonesome? I’m aware this hobby is more male orientated but I’m optimistic that regardless I will still be treated fairly and be welcomed into the group. If not though do you guys have any advice for me? What should I expect and be aware of in general with 40k gaming groups and how can I best go about earning the respect of my fellow gamers and modellers? I really don’t want to be seen as “the girl” in the group and simply be treated like everyone else.
It depends on your locality. If guys in your locality are generally pieces of animated bovine feces, that's who you'll be playing with.
That said, in my experience, there's at least some degree of enforcement of civility from people like games store staff, and it's not worse than anywhere else in the local area.
I don't think there's a higher incidence of creepy people than there are in other activities, and because contact is fairly brief and structured, there's not really a space to wind up with horror stories like some D&D campaigns generate.
About 20 years ago it might have been more difficult, but the amount of female players has increased over time and attitudes have changed for the better, plus contrary to stereotypes, the majority of guys playing will have girlfriends or wives and are generally pretty sociable. Overall, as far as nerd groups go, it's a pretty good one that doesn't have the issues that MTG/CCGs can and computer gaming has in spades.
Of course, groups vary. I'm into board games as well and avoid one local game store after getting put off by the regulars, thankfully another one opened up in my city which is so much more welcoming and modern. The local GW store is just as nice, really good staff. As with anything social, if you do come across a bad group, avoid it in future but don't let it stop you finding a better one with nicer people.
I have never seen or heard people like... hating on a woman for playing in the hobby in real life (As opposed to the internet, where people are full terrible) and none of the shop runners in my area would accept someone who did. They'd get tossed out in a heart beat.
But man have i seen a lot, and I mean A LOT, of thirsty, socially awkward nerds. Like a lot.
I think that'll be the main issue, if you have one at all, is being, uh, awkwardly hit on. I am sorry in advance.
In the shop I most often frequent, I haven't actually seen a woman regular come and hang out unlike the plenty of dudes who do. And this does bum me out, especially when I see some of the younger more awkward ones thirsting on a girl who does show interest.
Mistresspaige wrote: So I’m new to 40k and tabletop gaming in general but am a fast learner and have stared snooping around for local gaming groups where I can start playing. I am kind of nervous though as whilst I’m sure it’s not as bad of an issue as say a decade ago is their still stigma to women playing 40k on her lonesome? I’m aware this hobby is more male orientated but I’m optimistic that regardless I will still be treated fairly and be welcomed into the group. If not though do you guys have any advice for me? What should I expect and be aware of in general with 40k gaming groups and how can I best go about earning the respect of my fellow gamers and modellers? I really don’t want to be seen as “the girl” in the group and simply be treated like everyone else.
Paige, if you're looking for any general pointers on local groups it might be worth asking in your local Warhammer (GW) store if there is one close enough to you. The company line is that they need to be Family friendly and they often have some indication on local clubs due to talking with regular customers of staffers being members themselves.
Like others have said, how a club reacts to discrimination should give you a good indication of whether you'll enjoy your time there or not but hopefully one bad apple won't put you off what, for the majority of us, is a highly enjoyed and welcoming hobby.
As with any large community you'll always get some who have issues like you're concerned about, but that's the point, it's their issue not yours. Hopefully you'll only have to deal with "TFG" like the rest of us as any half decent club will deal with the bigots and White knights promptly.
There aren't many women in my community. I've known in 20 years of being around here four of them.
However all four were never treated badly.
The #1 issue that they all usually have to deal with is being hit on all the time and being asked for their number on a regular basis. Even if you are with someone. Even with that someone is in your community as well. That will be the #1 thing I have found most women to have to deal with.
Yes from experience it's not that the guys will be rude or want you out there will just be a few who fall instantly in love with you because you play warhammer my sister had this exact problem in a main london store a few years ago and never went back after attending two evening sessions. Like these guys were unable to look her in the eye but were full on cringey painfully besotted. Not great.
Yeah, kind of. It really depends on the exact group, though. I've ran into every stripe of gamer. Racist, sexist, etc. You might never have a problem, or you might have a slew of them. Not super helpful, I know, but just be aware that it's possible.
@ OP. No I dont think so. Vast majority of people on the planet just want everyone to live their lives and just do their thing..
You will run into bad people occasionally in every walk of life. Be that grocery shopping, going to the gym, knitting club or wargaming club. Its a part of life. But I don't think from personal experience wargaming club/community is any different. Just gotta avoid those people once you identify them if it happens.
Also. The internet is not reality. We seem to have forgotten this. People will blast a bad experience from all the rooftops. But nobody is going to say "everybody listen up! I have to share this. We had a game. It was aigh. Nothing bad happened. The end" because that's not newsworthy its the norm.
Thanks guys so appreciate your thoughts and advice. I do get the flirtation stuff that can happen. My dnd group was victim to this a bit, but it wasn’t too bad, especially when we all got to know each other and we’re comfortable. I am abit of a door mat though and hope that doesn’t give some more incentive to take advantage of it. If it helps I’m super nerdy, positive, bubbly and love a laugh and intelligent conversation. Hopefully that will work in my favour for being accepted easily into the group.
It's something that's much more likely to come up in your local community than in bigger events, which are better policed and where people are there to play the game more than to socialize anyway. And that just depends on your local scene; there's no way to really know except try and see how it goes, but you'll probably be fine.
In my experience, about 85% of 40k players are great stand-up people, another 10% mean well but are socially awkward, and then then there's maybe 1 in 20 who are not people you want to spend much time with.
Compared to society as a whole, that's actually a pretty favorable ratio.
I've only seen people not liking girls playing this (or any other) game in the internet. All physical stores I've been never had a problem with guys and girls interacting.
Welcome to the hobby! You'll meet jerks in every hobby/community/social circle. Ignore them. They're the exception not the rule.
I wouldn't be surprised if you encounter a couple guys that don't know how to act when playing against you. They might be worried about being awkward or offensive. If you're relaxed, they'll learn to relax also.
If you're a hammer looking for a nail though, you'll find it. If you look for reasons to be offended you'll find them.
If everyone remembers to give the benefit of the doubt, just like you would hope someone would give to you, then everyone will have fun.
Most gaming groups love to meet new players. We want to keep the community growing! As long as someone shows a genuine iterest in the hobby, we are plenty glad to offer help and suggestions for what you need to start gaming.
I have witnessed three different people running my local GW store so far. First two were male and created an exclusive customer circle which was not very keen to accept newcomers at all. All the people in this circle were male. Suffice to say both failed eventually.
The third store manager is a woman, is still in charge and increased the sales of the shop by a large margin because of being an open-minded person. Her presence alone was enough to attract a few girls into the hobby but they largely commit to painting & building as I have almost never seen them play in the store.
The most active players at my LGS are women, never had anyone do anything stupid to them. Most people will treat you like a normal human being, the more extreme cases we hear about are the minority.
If anyone does something you don't feel comfortable with, just talk to the store manager about it.
It depends on your location. There are three stores in the area where I am that have significant warhammer presences, and there was previously another place that was one of those 'artist/maker spaces'.
I have always had a 0 tolerance policy for several types of bad behavior inherited from our previous club leader dude. Don't know what the policy is at the other two game store spaces, but still our group is like 90% white dads. it's just dads as far as the eye can see, dads stretching to the horizon. We have people who do not fit into that category, but usually only about a half dozen out of 40-50 active members at any given time.
Our game shop is primarily a hobby/nostalgia type store, lots of non-gaming model stuff, terrain stuff, very old school shop that gets an older clientele than the other two stores, which are more towards the teenagers and college kids. The group that was based in the maker space I would visit to play Necromunda, and and it was slightly fewer active members every week but it was like 100% non-normative looking folks, closer to an even gender spread.
That group shut down when the person organizing it moved away, and though I invited everyone I had met there and gotten contact info for to come play with our group, I got only a couple takers and no regular new members.
Honestly, I think a lot of it comes down to just setting. The shop where we play is a shop where dads play. I have never known a white dad who was not a kid in a candy store in that place, and so that's who we get.
auticus wrote: There aren't many women in my community. I've known in 20 years of being around here four of them.
However all four were never treated badly.
The #1 issue that they all usually have to deal with is being hit on all the time and being asked for their number on a regular basis. Even if you are with someone. Even with that someone is in your community as well. That will be the #1 thing I have found most women to have to deal with.
This is what my wife has to endure when we go to big events attached to Cons. But locally I'm fairly well known so it's very respectful.
Most of the potential issues I have seen or heard about have been discussed already. Except one. There are troglodytes who will feel empowered to take you to task if your army/miniatures don't look like they would expect according to the lore. For example, a friend painted some of her x-wing miniatures with rainbow colors because that's what she wanted to do. The regulars who knew and played with her didn't bat an eye. But the occasional interloper from other shops or areas would be seriously offended by her fluff violations. These guys are kind of a gendered variation on the painting snobs that you can sometimes find in the darker recesses of game stores.
My experience is as a big guy. I can break up fist-fights without needing to worry about becoming a casualty myself... so while I'd like to say, "Just tell them to feth off." I can say that because the average someone wouldn't haul off and deck me for doing so.
At my FLGS, we have a diverse group of people that come to play. I haven't seen anything in the way of open discrimination, or even whispers in the back, but I think the owner has established that his store is open to any and all. So hopefully your local groups are of similar mindset.
Mistresspaige wrote: So I’m new to 40k and tabletop gaming in general but am a fast learner and have stared snooping around for local gaming groups where I can start playing. I am kind of nervous though as whilst I’m sure it’s not as bad of an issue as say a decade ago is their still stigma to women playing 40k on her lonesome? I’m aware this hobby is more male orientated but I’m optimistic that regardless I will still be treated fairly and be welcomed into the group. If not though do you guys have any advice for me? What should I expect and be aware of in general with 40k gaming groups and how can I best go about earning the respect of my fellow gamers and modellers? I really don’t want to be seen as “the girl” in the group and simply be treated like everyone else.
100%. Hobby gaming is dominated by men, probably even more than video games, and it has had crazy issues with sexism.
It'll be frustrating at times, but if you love it, just stick with it. Find the cool people, and just try to stay away from the dumbasses.
I think there is plenty of room for issues, but it is the standard sort where a certain percentage of men mistreat women. I do not believe the hobby is particularly high-risk. I would be far more wary of getting the 'wrong kind of attention' than straight being discriminated against, if that makes sense.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I would be far more wary of getting the 'wrong kind of attention' than straight being discriminated against, if that makes sense.
Hehe, all too true. Not everyone who populates game stores are the most socially adept. Most of the ones I have been to the population is generally accepting of all but the most a-holery and walking bio-hazards. Simply put, someone of a sex they find attractive sharing an interest they have may cause them to try to attract your attention, and not do a very good job of it.
I know I'm here in the States, but there are usually women present about half the time in the larger stores (I think one is a part owner of one of the medium-sized stores), and I don't frequent the smaller ones much to have seen any there (more due to travel times and game interests). You may find out that there are already a few women at your local stores already.
There is no reason to believe you wouldn't be welcome, frankly i think its great more people want to get involved, I saw a post once asking "Will people get to angry if I paint my models too girly?" written by a girl....and all I could think is - If they do get angry then there is something wrong with them, frankly i would find it pretty funny and commend the person for it. Though i could see if your looking to take offence then you could call my laughing "mocking" or something even though I am just seeing humour in girly space marines.
I have never seen a hostile person in the games workshop store and i used to spend huge amounts of time in there as a kid. Now this is one store in Edinburgh but when i went to Games day convention i never saw anyone treated remotely negatively. Everyone i saw was enjoying themselves, now I am sure there are cases where this is not true but its so rare I personally have never seen it.
Walk in with a smile and an open mind and you will likely walk out with a smile. Walk in looking to take offence and you will probably find it, just like when you look for witches you generally find them.
Rebel4ever85 wrote: There is no reason to believe you wouldn't be welcome, frankly i think its great more people want to get involved, I saw a post once asking "Will people get to angry if I paint my models too girly?" written by a girl....and all I could think is - If they do get angry then there is something wrong with them, frankly i would find it pretty funny and commend the person for it. I have never seen a hostile person in the games workshop store and i used to spend huge amounts of time in there as a kid. Now this is one store in Edinburgh but when i went to Games day convention i never saw anyone treated remotely negatively. Everyone i saw was enjoying themselves, now I am sure there are cases where this is not true but its so rare I personally have never seen it.
Walk in with a smile and an open mind and you will likely walk out with a smile. Walk in looking to take offense and you will probably find it, just like when you look for witches you generally find them.
That is something i never quite understood? what is girly?Why is that an issue since it's your models ?
Not to mention a lot of factions can take such looks quite well . imo.
That is something i never quite understood? what is girly?Why is that an issue since it's your models ?
Not to mention a lot of factions can take such looks quite well . imo.
Who said it was an issue? I have never seen it be an issue, if it is an issue i would say there is something wrong with the person making the issue. Like i said i collected and played as a kid and frankly my models at times could have been painted by a chimp and i did make up my own colours and patterns on certain units. I mean you might not get comments on how cool your units look if they are painted like garbage or with terrible colours but that is about the extent of it. Nobody ever complained or even commented on it...meanwhile my best friend painted like the games workshop staff and always got compliments on how well he painted. I can see how some people could see this as "He gets treated better than me" but frankly even as a child i knew his models were awesome and i didn't bat an eye when he got praise.
That is something i never quite understood? what is girly?Why is that an issue since it's your models ?
Not to mention a lot of factions can take such looks quite well . imo.
Who said it was an issue? I have never seen it be an issue, if it is an issue i would say there is something wrong with the person making the issue. Like i said i collected and played as a kid and frankly my models at times could have been painted by a chimp and i did make up my own colours and patterns on certain units. I mean you might not get comments on how cool your units look if they are painted like garbage or with terrible colours but that is about the extent of it.
I totally agree.
But i still don't get the mindset as to why that should be an issue to begin with?
I totally agree.
But i stoll don't get the mindset as to why that should be an issue to begin with?
Nothing to do with the game, likely personal issues. As some people go looking for offence when it doesn't exist there are people who offend people for no obvious reason. The unfortunate truth is its unavoidable and in all aspects of society.
I totally agree.
But i stoll don't get the mindset as to why that should be an issue to begin with?
Nothing to do with the game, likely personal issues. As some people go looking for offence when it doesn't exist there are people who offend people for no obvious reason. The unfortunate truth is its unavoidable and in all aspects of society.
In this hobby i have seen it online a few times, But i like to think its really rare as my sanity requires it. There was people who take offence to GW post a few weeks back. And after reading magic news for a few years i have seen some insane issues pop up. Sadly these people do exist and they can make a lot of waves.
But unlikely to meet them i think.
While I don't have a great deal of experience in my city as I'm pretty new to the hobby, I will say that 40k twitter/insta is one of the more diverse online communities I've encountered. Coming from mostly online gaming it was quite liberating to see woman and lgbt+ people at the forefront of the hobby. There's some outliers but that was a big improvement from other communities I've been a part of. It's also true that while stores may be frequented by all ages, tournament and hobby groups here tend to get those who are a little more mature, or at least have learned how to operate to at least a functional standard around those of the opposite sex.
No. Not if you're there to play and have fun. That's all the overwhelming majority of gamers ask. My gaming group is a pretty solid mix. All I've ever expected is "Play fair, have fun, wash your ass".
Generally your 'creepiest' people are mentally ill. That, or they're the ones that try extra hard to convince you they're not the creepy ones, they're here to protect m'lady aaaaand now he's sniffing your purse.
Don't listen to the horror stories. Most of them are flat-out fabrications from people trying to get attention, or to make you feel like you need them to protect you. Notice how a lot of folks' "horrible group of gamers" that are actually racists, sexists, and all manner of terrible people... well, they're never willing to name the location. You'd think that'd be a pretty important piece of information for the rest of us, right? And they keep going back. Odd thing, that.
Honestly, I game in a place where you'd probably expect us to be a bunch of horrible backwards people (even though my game group is quite varied with LGBT, all races, and at one time about half women)- and if someone's a jerk to a person because they're a woman... that might actually bring out the worst of our traits. Most gals are treated like sisters.
To be fair, you've got an advantage. As a woman you can burn some dude's ego a lot worse than most of us can, and anything he does will make him just look even worse.
Just wash your ass, don't cheat, and have fun.
Seriously, wash your ass. I can't stress this enough.
EDIT: You'll get guys that flirt with you. That's gonna happen. You're a grown woman, from the looks of it, so you know how to deal with that at this point. A lot of people will freak out and act like that's some big terrible thing that should never happen to you, but it's not. It's natural. It's not the 'wrong kind of attention'. It's human nature. Some of them are going to be unattractive and undesirable, and that just happens. It happens to most normal guys, too- if they have a social life. So you just have to learn to manage it, it's part of being an adult.
I'm dating a woman I met in a gaming establishment. I thought she was attractive and interesting, so I went up to her and started talking to her. I made it clear I was interested a bit later. It worked out. Have other guys hit on her? Damned right they have, and I'm not the least bit mad because none of them knew about us- she's a beautiful woman, she's charming, she's hilarious, and she's got fun interests. What single, heterosexual man in his right mind wouldn't approach her? It's a gaming shop, not the workplace (actually it was my workplace but I wasn't on the clock).
Don't let the pearl-clutchers and panic-peddlers ruin your expectations of gaming, miss. You'll do fine.
You'll be shocked to find that "Warhammer is for everyone", and honestly it always has been. That ain't a new concept.
If you find yourself in a place where you are treated differently (in a negative way), I highly suggest you just leave. Let it rot. You're not missing anything. And do come back and tell us what the location was so we can all avoid it, ridicule them, and watch the place financially collapse in on itself.
Because seriously, I'm dying to know what these places are, because all the horror stories seem to be really intent on keeping this information a protected secret.
My experience (as a cishet white-passing male) is that your experience will vary depending on who you end up gaming with (with a loose correlation to average age/maturity level of the group you fall in with, though exceptions always apply).
In all honesty, the duds in the community are an increasing minority relative to "normies", so worst comes to worst if you encounter a group that gives you a hard time just find a new group, chances are it will probably be an improvement. If you're on twitter, I highly recommend searching out some of the Twitterverse 40k personalities (#warmongers and #warwardens are your friends in this case) and seeing if any of them are located near you. The UK has a seemingly fairly tight-knit community of progressive-minded individuals on Twitter, including quite a few female gamers, that are actively working to make the 40k community more welcoming to women, POC, LGBTQ+, etc. I'm sure that some of them can probably help point you in the right direction
Honestly if you're on Twitter, my advice is to not be on Twitter.
I'm not just being facetious and a troll here. Well, maybe a little jest but honestly I think trying to get a feel for 40k communities by sampling the internet is like trying to get a taste of Mexican culture at Taco Bell.
OP is looking for people to game/hobby with, I think?
Online communities are really, really sketchy. Sure, you can claim they're trying to make things better on the internet, but I've also seen way too many of these 'good boys' on the internet come out with so many skeletons in their closet you'd swear it was the Paris Catacombs. That, and I personally watched a mob of them tell a woman that she should be grateful because if it wasn't for them being 'allies' that all those other guys would- well, I'm sure you can imagine. Or you can be skeptical. Irrelevant.
It's fine to have a chat with people online about gaming. But honestly I'd suggest that any player's best bet is to go look into the local gaming shops, stick their head in the door and buy a few things, and see what the place is like on Friday. People can really put on one hell of a false persona online, and when it comes to meeting strangers in person after being online? Eh... that's how the more credible stories start out.
...of course right now, Corona-Chan's got the social things on a dampener.
Karol wrote: In retro spect, I think that joing any game alone is a risky idea. And even more so, if non of the people know you, from some place else.
Doesn't matter if it is online or a store community to be honest. And it doesn't seem to matter what country it is either.
I'd have to disagree.
When I moved to where I live now? Man, you wouldn't believe me if I told you but it was really rough on me. I had a great job opportunity, good money, nice home to live in... and I didn't know anyone.
Dude, it was lonely. I couldn't even unpack my boxes. I just put my bed up, turned on my computer, and drank a lot. Then I decided to get off my rear and take my models down to the local shops and see what was going on.
Day 1: I met some guys, we did a game, still great friends- we still game or do some hobby-work once a week now. This was many years ago.
In all honesty, that's kinda why I still really love 40k- despite all its flaws, despite the insane prices, despite some of the issues... it's helped me out a lot. I'm naturally not much of an outgoing person, I don't like going to bars so much, and most of my other hobbies are more 'solitary' things.
And I travel with my job sometimes, so I can still end up just throwing my game cases in the truck and during my stay- find the nearest game shop and go meet some people. Sure, sometimes you find a place that's a little weird... but most of the time, it's great.
Fun fact: Out "in the desert" out West, I played at a game shop while I as traveling. Made friends with a couple of folks. Once every year, I still go out there and hang with these folks and we do some games and go camping, shoot guns, tell spoopy stories... It's pretty awesome.
Well we are lucky to have one store close, or one gym. And people are always tribal in those. You walk in to a place with the wrong football team shirt or speak with the wrong accent, and you would have been better to have stayed at home.
If you don't have people to intreduce you it is very hard. And even then it can end bad. I joined my store, because of people from school. And my entry in to the hobby was getting tricked in to buying GK. Stuff like that never happens to people who have older brothers or cousins already playing at the store. Or at least never happened through the 2 years, I have played w40k.
And it my town in generaly peacful and small. Comparing to the things that can happen to you in lets say Cracov aka the city of knifes or Warsaw, we are a tight knit narrative casual group. And it is not just me, most people from my part of the world have stories like that. Try speaking polish at any store in Lithuania.
Welcome on board.
We have two women in our 40k club, one a veteran and the other brand new to the hobby.
Both have slotted into the group seemlessly and with no friction at all. We play a variety of games, board and tabletop and they dip in and out as they wish as does everyone.
I've never once witnessed anything even remotely weird since they've been coming, none of the guys even blinked when they rocked up, just interested in what armies they were bringing.
Have fun.
Karol wrote: ..And my entry in to the hobby was getting tricked in to buying GK. Stuff like that never happens to people who have older brothers or cousins already playing at the store. Or at least never happened through the 2 years, I have played w40k.
Did you like them, at least? I mean, I'm always the type of guy that when someone asks what army they should play, I always tell them "the ones you think are the coolest". The one guy I know that didn't listen to me and actually bought the 'competitive' army that a competitive player advised him to buy- well, let's just say to this day he still tells me the best thing he's ever done is sell off that Tau army and just buy Black Templars. Sure, he doesn't win as much... but there's also a lot to be said about actually thinking your army is cool and liking what they are.
Karol wrote: ... Cracov aka the city of knifes....
This has my attention.
Although, because reality is boring I'm assuming that this isn't because there's plenty of great knives for sale at bargain prices.
Welcome to the hobby! It can be pricey, but very satisfying with the painting and lore etc. Like others have said, you should be fine, but it really depends on your store/area; you just can't predict these things.
If I compare, for example, Dungeons & Dragons, Magic: The Gathering, and Warhammer 40k (the big three as such), I'd say I find DnD to be the most toxic community, some real vile people into that stuff (and I think 5th edition is utter crap to boot). There are certainly some characters into Warhammer though, but at the same time you won't struggle to find well-adjusted, nice, and friendly people into it either. Hope you have a good experience with it, I think as you can see on this forum the people are welcoming and helpful and happy to have new people get into the hobby.
No. Not if you're there to play and have fun. That's all the overwhelming majority of gamers ask. My gaming group is a pretty solid mix. All I've ever expected is "Play fair, have fun, wash your ass".
Generally your 'creepiest' people are mentally ill. That, or they're the ones that try extra hard to convince you they're not the creepy ones, they're here to protect m'lady aaaaand now he's sniffing your purse.
Don't listen to the horror stories. Most of them are flat-out fabrications from people trying to get attention, or to make you feel like you need them to protect you. Notice how a lot of folks' "horrible group of gamers" that are actually racists, sexists, and all manner of terrible people... well, they're never willing to name the location. You'd think that'd be a pretty important piece of information for the rest of us, right? And they keep going back. Odd thing, that.
Honestly, I game in a place where you'd probably expect us to be a bunch of horrible backwards people (even though my game group is quite varied with LGBT, all races, and at one time about half women)- and if someone's a jerk to a person because they're a woman... that might actually bring out the worst of our traits. Most gals are treated like sisters.
To be fair, you've got an advantage. As a woman you can burn some dude's ego a lot worse than most of us can, and anything he does will make him just look even worse.
Just wash your ass, don't cheat, and have fun.
Seriously, wash your ass. I can't stress this enough.
EDIT: You'll get guys that flirt with you. That's gonna happen. You're a grown woman, from the looks of it, so you know how to deal with that at this point. A lot of people will freak out and act like that's some big terrible thing that should never happen to you, but it's not. It's natural. It's not the 'wrong kind of attention'. It's human nature. Some of them are going to be unattractive and undesirable, and that just happens. It happens to most normal guys, too- if they have a social life. So you just have to learn to manage it, it's part of being an adult.
I'm dating a woman I met in a gaming establishment. I thought she was attractive and interesting, so I went up to her and started talking to her. I made it clear I was interested a bit later. It worked out. Have other guys hit on her? Damned right they have, and I'm not the least bit mad because none of them knew about us- she's a beautiful woman, she's charming, she's hilarious, and she's got fun interests. What single, heterosexual man in his right mind wouldn't approach her? It's a gaming shop, not the workplace (actually it was my workplace but I wasn't on the clock).
Don't let the pearl-clutchers and panic-peddlers ruin your expectations of gaming, miss. You'll do fine.
You'll be shocked to find that "Warhammer is for everyone", and honestly it always has been. That ain't a new concept.
If you find yourself in a place where you are treated differently (in a negative way), I highly suggest you just leave. Let it rot. You're not missing anything. And do come back and tell us what the location was so we can all avoid it, ridicule them, and watch the place financially collapse in on itself.
Because seriously, I'm dying to know what these places are, because all the horror stories seem to be really intent on keeping this information a protected secret.
I read this post and all I can say is... yikes.
"All the stories about bigotry is lies! They never name locations". Maybe cause some of us are afraid of retribution from the bigots in those locations?
"Just accept that you'll be propositioned even when you don't want to be. That's just the lot of women".
Lots of people will likely try or want to sleep with you.
It's unlikely they'll be dicks to you however, and if the above makes you uncomfortble I would _hope_ there would be some more gentlemanly sorts that put an end to such behaviour.
As everyone has said it depends on your local meta.
9/10 are fine. 1/10 people you don't want to play with anyway.
Grimtuff wrote: Why do you think I have that clown on ignore? Please don't quote him in future so I don't need to see that gak and just report it.
for what exactly?
That blatant defence of bigotry and it dripping with misogyny? Don't worry, I've reported it anyway.
Erm, what?
What about it was bigoted?
What was misogynistic?
All i see, is a bad joke initially, stereotyping the TT Gamer community.
Now to the second claim, he pointed out his subjective experience in his local group, which seems to be highly antagonistic against behaviour you claim him to have?
The third bits, just personal hygiene suggestion, which seems to be an issue for some in the hobby, beeing of the more social akward side of the spectrum?
As for the edit: He could've just stated that clear communication solves (nearly) all the issues regardless of gender of the persons involved and attraction. I get it we gamers have a bad rep and some higher (probably) overlap with social akward people , Heck i 've been hit on , akwardly, by guys / gals, etc. normally people can and prefer a clear "not interested in you in that way" above other ways?
I ifnd it more disturbing that you two seem to insinuate that gals can't stand up for themselves and therefore need to be treated like "special " people protected at all times instead of just fellow gamers and hobbiests.
I ifnd it more disturbing that you two seem to insinuate that gals can't stand up for themselves and therefore need to be treated like "special " people protected at all times instead of just fellow gamers and hobbiests.
Gals, what is this? The 1950s?
Where did I say that? Go on, I'll wait. I've made 1 post ITT prior to now and nothing indicates what you claim.
I ifnd it more disturbing that you two seem to insinuate that gals can't stand up for themselves and therefore need to be treated like "special " people protected at all times instead of just fellow gamers and hobbiests.
Gals, what is this? The 1950s?
Where did I say that? Go on, I'll wait. I've made 1 post ITT prior to now and nothing indicates what you claim.
I explained perfectly why i think you do ,
Infact the second Post literally is a Personal attack on him without anything read seemingly, then a Report , which is questionable in lieu of the actual Post in question, unless i am missing something entirely since english is not my native tongue, but i doubt that aswell.
I strongly suspect a lock, and not to mention the OP reading your bickering and becoming disheartened about the sorts of people we are.
Good job team.
I mean, people showing up to show off their defenses of bigotry is kind of an answer to the question.
Remember that we have people here from all over the world from all sorts of cultures. by definition the term is subjective to where and what type of group each of us is accustomed to.
Vector Strike wrote: I've only seen people not liking girls playing this (or any other) game in the internet. All physical stores I've been never had a problem with guys and girls interacting.
And this topic made me remember this
Spoiler:
I always prefer this classic version of the same joke
Mistresspaige wrote: So I’m new to 40k and tabletop gaming in general but am a fast learner and have stared snooping around for local gaming groups where I can start playing. I am kind of nervous though as whilst I’m sure it’s not as bad of an issue as say a decade ago is their still stigma to women playing 40k on her lonesome? I’m aware this hobby is more male orientated but I’m optimistic that regardless I will still be treated fairly and be welcomed into the group. If not though do you guys have any advice for me? What should I expect and be aware of in general with 40k gaming groups and how can I best go about earning the respect of my fellow gamers and modellers? I really don’t want to be seen as “the girl” in the group and simply be treated like everyone else.
It's gonna depend on your local scene. I've got a lady who frequents my GW and she's treated as an awesome painter, because she is. And outside that... Nah, that's about it. Her being a woman doesn't really matter.
I hope that your FLGS is like mine, and has a positive, inclusive attitude. If not, though, remember that no gaming is better than bad gaming. If people are making you feel bad, or harassing you, or anything like that, as fun as gaming is, it ain't worth it.
stratigo wrote: "All the stories about bigotry is lies! They never name locations". Maybe cause some of us are afraid of retribution from the bigots in those locations?
You ever thought that maybe there are other gamers out there that won't stand for this? Or maybe other gamers that shouldn't have to experience it by you hiding it? You don't have to drop your own identity to expose a nasty business. This happens all the time. And in 2020, where bigotry seems to be less popular that leprosy, I'm not sure I buy the idea of a local mob of tabletop nerds acting like brownshirts with impunity is a credible narrative.
And that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
stratigo wrote: "Just accept that you'll be propositioned even when you don't want to be. That's just the lot of women".
This post here is bigotry defense 101
"If people like you they will take an interest in you, and they will want to get to know you". That's something every adult human being with any degree of social experiences in literally any part of the world can tell you.
You do realize that... women also talk to men, right? And sometimes men aren't interested in those women, yeah? That... rejecting another person's advances is a part of adult life, and it's only a problem if they persist, right? You are understanding that human beings engaging one another, and finding others attractive is a natural human thing, right?
And if taking an interest in another human being is 'persecution' of some sort, then... well, I feel very sad for you.
"Womenfolk" seemed a bit out of touch with modern life. You're overreacting. And I'm on 'ignore', but I'm pretty sure you're reading this anyway and looking for a reason to report the response. Knock yourself out.
I'll let the mods sort this out. Had a nice conversation with them about this sort of thing recently.
I think it would be extremely worth the mods' time to evaluate some sort of response to flagrant abuses of the report system as well. Perhaps that could cut down on the mountain of reports they have to sift through.
Not Online!!! wrote: The third bits, just personal hygiene suggestion, which seems to be an issue for some in the hobby, beeing of the more social akward side of the spectrum?
There wouldn't be signs up in multiple shops if it wasn't a concern. Also, considering there's some kind of coof going around right now- there's a bit more to the concern than discomfort.
Not Online!!! wrote: I ifnd it more disturbing that you two seem to insinuate that gals can't stand up for themselves and therefore need to be treated like "special " people protected at all times instead of just fellow gamers and hobbiests.
Few things disturb me more than the idea of being inclusive and friendly towards people different from yourself requires you to treat them like mentally defective children, and not like adult human beings.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Istrongly suspect a lock, and not to mention the OP reading your bickering and becoming disheartened about the sorts of people we are.
Nah, keep it rolling.
It'll do wonders to make my point. I don't even need to say anything else. Let her see what people are really like. Let's put on a proper spectacle for her.
1) because you're female you might get hit on, asked out, flirted with, etc. Normally-functioning adult humans know how to make clear that they are uninterested. Or they tolerate this behavior with mild amusement. Males might also get hit on, but that is less common in my experience.
2) as long as you shower before you go to the store for gaming, and use deodorant, everything should be great. Take a pack of gum in case your opponent has dogbreath and doesn't know it. You might end up playing a game or several against opponents who aren't aware of this guideline. Usually giving them 4+ feet of personal space solves the problem. Since the tables are 6x4 usually, just stay on the opposite side from them, if it comes to it.
And as another Dakkanaut posted, if you're looking for offense, you'll no doubt find it. If you're looking to play WH40K and have fun, you can no doubt do that as well.
dadx6 wrote: I'd like to reiterate Adeptus Dorito:
1) because you're female you might get hit on, asked out, flirted with, etc. Normally-functioning adult humans know how to make clear that they are uninterested. Or they tolerate this behavior with mild amusement. Males might also get hit on, but that is less common in my experience.
2) as long as you shower before you go to the store for gaming, and use deodorant, everything should be great. Take a pack of gum in case your opponent has dogbreath and doesn't know it. You might end up playing a game or several against opponents who aren't aware of this guideline. Usually giving them 4+ feet of personal space solves the problem. Since the tables are 6x4 usually, just stay on the opposite side from them, if it comes to it.
Alternatively- and hear me out here:
If you disregard #2, #1 isn't going to be a problem.
dadx6 wrote: I'd like to reiterate Adeptus Dorito:
1) because you're female you might get hit on, asked out, flirted with, etc. Normally-functioning adult humans know how to make clear that they are uninterested. Or they tolerate this behavior with mild amusement. Males might also get hit on, but that is less common in my experience.
2) as long as you shower before you go to the store for gaming, and use deodorant, everything should be great. Take a pack of gum in case your opponent has dogbreath and doesn't know it. You might end up playing a game or several against opponents who aren't aware of this guideline. Usually giving them 4+ feet of personal space solves the problem. Since the tables are 6x4 usually, just stay on the opposite side from them, if it comes to it.
Alternatively- and hear me out here:
If you disregard #2, #1 isn't going to be a problem.
Modern problems require modern solutions.
please don't.
the majority would not want number 1 anyways at the game store, they want a fine match that is fair and fun, which is subjective of course, but if you disregard NR2 then we all get real issues really fast, especially in lieu of what is going around right now.
As a girl who's been playing 40k for a while, expect misogyny, patriarchal BS, and much of the standard worries when entering a male dominated community.
Expect intimidation.
Blndmage wrote: As a girl who's been playing 40k for a while, expect misogyny, patriarchal BS, and much of the standard worries when entering a male dominated community.
Expect intimidation.
Where do you encounter this?
I'd love to shame them. Name some establishments and I'll gladly have your back and help put an end to this.
Not Online!!! wrote: Personally i think Name and boycott to be better then to lower ones own Standards to that "Level".
Oh, absolutely.
Anyone who doesn't think that's effective has never seen a Google Review destroy a business.
EDIT: Honestly, though- I'm not going to dig too deep into questioning anyone's experiences. I'll let trends speak for themselves. I'll just say that the horror stories always seem to be on the internet, from angry people, and I'm skeptical of what I see online. I'll gladly boycott a business that's being scummy, and help spread the word about it. Hell, if I can verify it, I'm pretty sure working at an FLGS- I can help you find that shop's distributors and you can use that information.
Blndmage wrote: As a girl who's been playing 40k for a while, expect misogyny, patriarchal BS, and much of the standard worries when entering a male dominated community.
Expect intimidation.
Where do you encounter this?
I'd love to shame them. Name some establishments and I'll gladly have your back and help put an end to this.
Hmmm. Where would a woman expect misogyny, patriarchal BS, and much of the standard worries when entering a male dominated community?
Probably in a male-dominated community. Kinda says it on the Tin, doesn't it?
WH40k isn't the only one, it wasn't the first, it won't be the last. I don't think it's even the worst (though it's definitely not one of the best, IMO, compared to some of its competition). But it IS a male-dominated community, and even reasonable, good folks can be blind to things that are blatantly obvious to others.
People don't have to be a mustache-twirling villain (or, in the context of this case, a cheetos-tinged groping Neckbeard) to be misogynistic or perform patriarchal BS. They just need to be ignorant and/or unaware. And when it comes to both of those, where a lot of it has been baked into society/culture so long we can't see it two feet in front of our noses... well, it's easy. It's very easy.
But that's the power of the Status Quo. It has horrifying amounts of momentum, even if it's headed in the wrong direction. "Nothing needs to be done" is a helluva drug, so to speak.
But if you aren't a woman yourself, and you don't talk to women about this sort of thing with an open mind (not directed at you specifically, AD, your approach seemed open-minded), you might not have a good idea of just how scary and intimidating male-dominated communities can be.
Even when they're friendly. Sometimes especially when they're overly friendly. The stories my women friends have told are... disturbing. And stress-inducing.
To the OP:
In the gaming communities I've been a part of, most of the folks involved were reasonably well-behaved folks. It skewed young and male. There were a couple of creepy guys, but fortunately, enough players that I didn't have to play them more than once.
Do whatever you need to do to feel safe. The bigger the store, the more likely you are to find compatible gamers to play with, and the better chance you have to be selective about who you'll play with (because you having fun is important, and what you enjoy may not match what is fun for others).
It would probably be worth taking a friend or two the first few times you visit, or asking the Store Owner (who most definitely wants their store to be as Inclusive and Inviting and PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD FEEL COMFORTABLE ENOUGH TO COME BACK AND BUY STUFF as reasonably possible) to recommend some regulars that they know will be a good LGS Ambassador.
Hopefully things work well, or at the very least, that you're safe. Good luck!
It is still awefully convenient that alot of These horrorstories never really Name a place. Which would be the least people should expect if only to actually be able to avoid them.
Not Online!!! wrote: It is still awefully convenient that alot of These horrorstories never really Name a place. Which would be the least people should expect if only to actually be able to avoid them.
How can we expect to believe people are being harassed if they don't tell us their location on a public internet forum?
After being super clear about having my back, the owner hid behind BS.
I was contacted by a patron after an event (literally woke up to it the next morning.), insulted, threatened, and promised more of the same if I was seen in the store.
I went directly to the owner, shared everything, and asked that the person be, at least, banned from the FB group, at most banned from the store. He wouldn't go for either and said "because it didn't happen in the store, he couldn't do anything."
When I countered with "So you want me to come to the store and knowingly suffer before you'll do anything?"
His answer "Yes."
My wife even when down to the store to speak in person with him (I haven't set foot in it since it happened in February 2019), and spoke with him about it on recording. Same BS. "I don't want to alienate my biggest patrons."
Unusual Suspect wrote: But if you aren't a woman yourself, and you don't talk to women about this sort of thing with an open mind (not directed at you specifically, AD, your approach seemed open-minded), you might not have a good idea of just how scary and intimidating male-dominated communities can be.
Even when they're friendly. Sometimes especially when they're overly friendly. The stories my women friends have told are... disturbing. And stress-inducing.
Being around people who are different from you and doing something unfamiliar and new can be very intimidating, I'm sure.
This is why I advocate treating people like they're... just regular people. Start treating women like delicate snowflakes and you'll probably drive them away faster, in my experience.
After being super clear about having my back, the owner hid behind BS.
I was contacted by a patron after an event (literally woke up to it the next morning.), insulted, threatened, and promised more of the same if I was seen in the store.
I went directly to the owner, shared everything, and asked that the person be, at least, banned from the FB group, at most banned from the store. He wouldn't go for either and said "because it didn't happen in the store, he couldn't do anything."
When I countered with "So you want me to come to the store and knowingly suffer before you'll do anything?"
His answer "Yes."
My wife even when down to the store to speak in person with him (I haven't set foot in it since it happened in February 2019), and spoke with him about it on recording. Same BS. "I don't want to alienate my biggest patrons."
Thank you, this is perfect. All I needed to know.
And if it blows back on you... well, I don't think it'll be a concern.
Just doing my due diligence- you have any idea what the patron's deal was? Like, what set them off? Or just some random crazy?
Just so you know- if they are threatening you via messages, you should take that to the police immediately.
Also, if your conflict didn't start in the store- well, the store owner's responsibility is to keep the drama out of the store. He can't ban someone just because you had a squabble with them elsewhere, unless it's high-visibility- and it can be: If this were some kind of message through Facebook- I recommend taking it and using it to show others what kind of person this player is. Your evidence has collected itself, actually. (No, I don't think you should show that here)
I work in a FLGS. We have customers that don't get along outside the store, and ask us to do something- if it doesn't happen in the store, we can't ban them from the store. We also can't go on a person's word alone. If they bring the drama to the store, we warn them to cool it. If they can't, then the instigator gets banned.
Unusual Suspect wrote: But if you aren't a woman yourself, and you don't talk to women about this sort of thing with an open mind (not directed at you specifically, AD, your approach seemed open-minded), you might not have a good idea of just how scary and intimidating male-dominated communities can be.
Even when they're friendly. Sometimes especially when they're overly friendly. The stories my women friends have told are... disturbing. And stress-inducing.
Being around people who are different from you and doing something unfamiliar and new can be very intimidating, I'm sure.
This is why I advocate treating people like they're... just regular people. Start treating women like delicate snowflakes and you'll probably drive them away faster, in my experience.
This doesn't seem to acknowledge the very different experience (and how appropriate being intimidated is, within context) that some people have.
Acknowledging and dealing with that context is no more treating someone "like a delicate snowflake" than acknowledging and dealing with, say, the inability of a storefront to handle wheelchair patrons, or non-speaking patrons, or non-hearing patrons. It is not insulting or patronizing for a store to actively work to accommodate that. You aren't being an donkey-cave by making sure there's wheelchair access.
Where you can treat them like everyone else, because they are actually treated like everyone else, is fine. I welcome it.
Sometimes treating them like everyone else isn't appropriate, because context changes the nature of that treatment.
the more I read, the more I try to understand all of this, all of the vitriol on these boards, the more I think I am just glad to stay in my perfect little gaming community.
Everything from how much GW is just awful, to stuff like this, I don't know how it is in your communities, but in mine, people who act like crap towards other people get ousted from the community pretty quickly. My group of gamers is really good people. My best friend and his wife play DND at the store with my wife and me and my other best friend from grade school. We have a couple of female gamers, and a couple of LGBTQAAIP+ gamers and no none gives a crap. Literally, no one cares. We sit around and I, as a 6'1" 2nd amendment loving redneck conservative have wonderful conversations with people who are VERY different from me.
I have them over to my house, we play games on Sundays, we all chip in and order pizza, we go to movies together, we all communicate daily in our group chat that has (i think) 24 or 25 members in it now.
We all don't agree. We don't have too. We know that we are all different and we get along because the common factor is the love of a miniatures game and a universe that we enjoy. We know that there are plenty of reasons to argue, and I would, of course, be lying if I said I got along with everybody just the same because I don't, people are all different and I click better with some more than others, but we still get along and enjoy the hobby with each other.
Warhammer is for everyone, it always has been in the 20 years I've been playing it.
If you have experienced some kind of poor treatment by the community or by the game stores and such, make that known and file charges if it is possible. It shouldn't be tolerated, at any point, and by anyone.
But part of me honestly has to wonder how much of the poor treatment people get is actually poor treatment and how much of it is based on hypersensitivity. I know for me, especially when I'm talking to people of different lifestyles, I have had to explain myself a few times because something I said didn't sit right or came across wrong. It was not through intent, and thankfully, after an honest apology and some discussion, the issues resolved, but there is a very real concern about saying the wrong thing, or not saying the right thing, and we do live in a world where sensitivity to what is being said and how it's being said is and can easily be misconstrued or misunderstood, especially when you are dealing with the deeper and darker topics of the WH40k universe, like xenophobia, religious extremism, fundamentalist behaviors, and the like.
I am a Child Protective Services agent. I see gak daily that would keep most people up at night, and the people whom it wouldn't have seen worse. I play games because they're fun and I love the universe, and anyone who loves it with me is welcome into the group.
I have traveled all across the western hemisphere for my previous work, everywhere from Brazil, Chile, Venezuela, Panama, Mexico, Puerto Rico, you name it. Everywhere I have been that I could find a gaming group, I have yet to encounter people just openly treating others in the hobby poorly. I have always been met with relatively open arms, even in places where you wouldn't think of it.
Sorry for the long-winded reply, but I am truly aghast by the degree of hatred or hurt that is on here sometimes. this thread really kind of highlights that.
OP, play the game and enjoy it. Find a good group of folk who like to play, enjoy the hobby, wanna throw dice, and sling brushes. If you do encounter the gaks of the world out there, then deal with them either by social avoidance or by going to the police if the behavior warrants it. Let the game store owner know, and if they refuse, then they don't deserve your business, but I truly believe, in my experience as a child protective services agency, that most, the overwhelmingly vast majority of people just want to be decent people and have fun enjoying the thing that will bring you together with them.
Not Online!!! wrote: It is still awefully convenient that alot of These horrorstories never really Name a place. Which would be the least people should expect if only to actually be able to avoid them.
How can we expect to believe people are being harassed if they don't tell us their location on a public internet forum?
Well it makes it hard to check if they don't lie. And from my expiriance people lie all the time, specialy if that can give them an edge over others.
Plus if the location was that bad, and harasment really did happen there, wouldn't you want people to know about it, so they accidently don't go there and get harasssed too. If someone who comes to our town for holidays decides he is going to go to specific places around here, we tell them not to go too, sometimes even before they say they would want to visit those places, because they are dangerous even to the locals, and even if they go there in groups.
Unusual Suspect wrote: Sometimes treating them like everyone else isn't appropriate, because context changes the nature of that treatment.
Well, of course someone with disabilities needs some degree of accommodation. I'm not expecting some dude in a wheelchair to play at a table that comes up to my stomach, or a deaf person to be able to hear me ask what a unit's toughness is when his back is turned, or a Tau player to talk without using sound effects and hand gestures (Sorry, had to do it- I love you guys that stay dedicated to that army despite all the trash we talk)
However, "woman" isn't a disability.
Believe it or not, most of them are a lot like guys except most of the time, they have different anatomy (note: don't ask to compare anatomy, it's impolite) and sometimes they smell nicer (Note: Do not do comparison sniffs, it's also impolite). Generally speaking, if a woman (or anyone at all for that matter) wants to come and play a game with your community, well- they want to come play a game with your community. They're not really asking for you to all drop down and change everything to make things more delicate for them- although, you shouldn't be a jerk and start trash-talking someone when you first meet them like they've been a part of your group for years. Be a welcoming, nice person to every person that shows an interest and you can't go wrong.
I'm reminded of a recent experience where a customer took it upon themselves to 'help' a lady that was taking an interest in 40k. For some reason, most women I know love Tyranids or Nurgle Daemons and she was set on the Tyranids. However, this 'helpful guy' was pushing Sisters of Battle at her, despite her having no interest in them. I guess in his mind he was thinking, "Hey you're a lady, obviously you want to play with plastic ladies, cause y'all both have boobs or something". Almost lost that sale until I went and intervened- managed to actually sell Start Collecting Tyranids and Genestealer Cults (she took an interest in Necromunda, due to a weekly event we had going on).
Karol wrote: Well it makes it hard to check if they don't lie. And from my expiriance people lie all the time, specialy if that can give them an edge over others.
Plus if the location was that bad, and harasment really did happen there, wouldn't you want people to know about it, so they accidently don't go there and get harasssed too.
It's a sad fact that people lie. People lie a lot on the internet. For years we were warned "don't trust everyone on the internet" and suddenly in the last few years that kinda went out the window. I'm not saying, "Call them a liar", but I'll say "hear them out, let them tell you their story, be skeptical, and if you can verify their story- do so". How you react to a liar after that is on you, but ... sometimes folks are chasing validation online because they aren't getting that validation from meaningful interpersonal relationships in real life. So... maybe they're insufferable and no one in real life likes them, or maybe they're in need of a real genuine friend to spend real time with them.
And anyone who thinks that lying doesn't happen online- well, get Tinder for a while and I promise you'll find some people who really paint a different image of themselves online. Sometimes with Photoshop.
If there's one thing I believe, it's "The Game Shop is Sacred". And if there's a game shop that's not making someone feel welcome, well... I want to know about it. They're really screwing with the thing that I take seriously, and that's "Gaming is for everyone". The only reason you should feel that a game isn't for you, is if you don't like it. As much drama and bickering there is in the world, I believe you should drop that stuff in the parking lot, stow it in your trunk when you grab your gaming stuff, and come inside and just be a 'gamer'. It's one of the few escapes we have, and we should have that thing to pull us away from the madness of reality.
I know, sentimental feels and whatnot- but look, when you play with someone I think you form a bond. And maybe that person is very different from you otherwise- their political beliefs, their gender, sexuality, race, religion, nationality, whatever- they could be someone that under normal circumstances, you'd not encounter and socialize with- hell, you might not even like them otherwise. But when you do a game, you start to see each other as two people who like the same thing and want to have fun, you start to realize that even if they are different- you've got this in common, and if they like this... well, there's no way they can be that different. And you make friends, the most unlikely friends sometimes.
Unless they don't wash their ass, then you're allowed to dislike them a bit. (Seriously, be nice about it but you can tell someone they may need to step away for a while- and sometimes, you might have to be a little understanding because a bad diet can make someone smell a lot worse when they begin sweating a little. I joke about this, but there's no reason to just be a jerk to someone for something they may not realize. "Escalation" is only required if they refuse to listen and adjust).
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Seabass wrote: I have them over to my house, we play games on Sundays, we all chip in and order pizza
Step up your game and do a pot luck, homie. That's what the cool groups do.
I'm teasing, of course- but we used to do the pizza thing until we started getting spouses and girlfriends that wanted to get competitive with the snacks, and this evolved into all-out potlucks every weekend.
Don't try to balance a Croc Pot on top of a miniatures case. Trust me.
Seabass wrote: I am a Child Protective Services agent. I see gak daily that would keep most people up at night, and the people whom it wouldn't have seen worse. I play games because they're fun and I love the universe, and anyone who loves it with me is welcome into the group.
I won't say how I know, but I'm close to someone in this line of work- and if anything, you deserve the hell out of a drama-free escape.
I've had them tell me stories that haunted me and had me in tears, hating this toilet Earth we live in. I don't know how you do it, and I've been to war more than once. I would rather do all that over again than spend a month in your profession. Respect.
Well, of course someone with disabilities needs some degree of accommodation. I'm not expecting some dude in a wheelchair to play at a table that comes up to my stomach, or a deaf person to be able to hear me ask what a unit's toughness is when his back is turned, or a Tau player to talk without using sound effects and hand gestures (Sorry, had to do it- I love you guys that stay dedicated to that army despite all the trash we talk)
However, "woman" isn't a disability.
No, it isn't. It does, however, come with context and baggage, some of it negative, PARTICULARLY in Male-dominated communities. A lot of that context isn't really obvious until you see things from their perspective, and you treat them differently to account for those differences.
Believe it or not, most of them are a lot like guys except most of the time, they have different anatomy (note: don't ask to compare anatomy, it's impolite) and sometimes they smell nicer (Note: Do not do comparison sniffs, it's also impolite). Generally speaking, if a woman (or anyone at all for that matter) wants to come and play a game with your community, well- they want to come play a game with your community. They're not really asking for you to all drop down and change everything to make things more delicate for them- although, you shouldn't be a jerk and start trash-talking someone when you first meet them like they've been a part of your group for years. Be a welcoming, nice person to every person that shows an interest and you can't go wrong.
Have we had this conversation before? This feels of Deja vu.
It isn't about what women are or are not actually different, it's about how women are actually TREATED differently, and the context in which behaviors that are not problematic otherwise can be problematic due to the circumstances and context in which they're found.
Part of providing a welcoming, inclusive environment is making that environment welcoming. For women, that means you need to deal with all the baggage that comes with experiences women tend to have with male-dominated cultures - to not do so is to not create an actually welcoming environment.
I'm not saying you aren't doing that - I don't know you from Adam.
But women, in patriarchal societies with experiences like they tend to have, have every reason to worry. Not acknowledging that context can make what would generally seem like a welcoming environment not, in context, actually welcoming.
I'm reminded of a recent experience where a customer took it upon themselves to 'help' a lady that was taking an interest in 40k. For some reason, most women I know love Tyranids or Nurgle Daemons and she was set on the Tyranids. However, this 'helpful guy' was pushing Sisters of Battle at her, despite her having no interest in them. I guess in his mind he was thinking, "Hey you're a lady, obviously you want to play with plastic ladies, cause y'all both have boobs or something". Almost lost that sale until I went and intervened- managed to actually sell Start Collecting Tyranids and Genestealer Cults (she took an interest in Necromunda, due to a weekly event we had going on).
If you think what I've talked about reminds you of that person, I don't think you're getting what I'm putting down. I think you're trying to paint me with colors that don't match.
No, it isn't. It does, however, come with context and baggage, some of it negative, PARTICULARLY in Male-dominated communities. A lot of that context isn't really obvious until you see things from their perspective, and you treat them differently to account for those differences.
I don't like to make generalizations about people. I'm not going to assume the woman that walks through the door has never been around a bunch of dudes before.
I mean, it's kinda weird you guys talk about the FLGS like it's worse than the average biker bar. What kinda places are YOU guys at?
But women, in patriarchal societies with experiences like they tend to have, have every reason to worry. Not acknowledging that context can make what would generally seem like a welcoming environment not, in context, actually welcoming.
Not for nothing here, and don't take this the wrong way... but you're doing a lotta speaking for women here. But this is me assuming you're a dude, and I've been wrong about genders before.
Spoiler:
One night in Bangkok and the world's your oyster....
It's a pretty simple concept: Be nice to people and be welcoming. Whoever they are. That's it. It's not hard. It's not complicated. It's pretty much the default setting for most groups of people.
I'm also of the mind that people are individuals with their own individual experiences and mindsets, and that combination makes every person unique. I'll let that unique individual's personality determine how they should be treated. Show up with a good attitude, wanting to have fun? Awesome. Show up with a nasty attitude looking to cause drama? Kick rocks. I'm not gonna treat every black guy like he's just stumbled out of the ghetto, or a Hispanic person like English isn't their first language, or a Tau Player like he's 11 years old (sorry guys, I still love you)
A good chunk of the women I play with- including the one I date- would be creeped out if you assumed they came from a world of hardship, terror, and abuse and started acting like you were building a safe little cushion of space for them to hide in. They'd probably call you something very unpleasant. One of those things that's actually a lot funnier when it comes from a woman. I say this not speaking on their behalf, but because I've seen them do it.
You keep saying "they have every reason to worry". Well, are you sure about that? Look, tell you what: It's not polite to speak on the moral condition of others that you don't know, even if you are the same gender. If they need to worry around you and your people, then by all means say so- I respect the honesty. But don't sit here and paint every group of guys like we're all just a bunch of Ike Turners and Harvey Weinsteins at Epstein's Island with Cosby Cocktails for all the ladies.
Being real honest here? And trying to be nice about it- I'm sorry if it doesn't seem this way, but I really am: When you talk like that... it's kind of creepy to me. Like, you're trying to paint the whole world of other males as this minefield of gropers and creepers, "But you're safe with me!" It's not your intent, I imagine... but that's the way it comes off and honestly I've never seen it actually make anyone comfortable. Anecdotal, sure- but anyone with that kind of attitude... I'm not going to be around them. Sorry if that sounded too harsh, it's just the nicest way I know to say it, man.
Unusual Suspect wrote: If you think what I've talked about reminds you of that person, I don't think you're getting what I'm putting down. I think you're trying to paint me with colors that don't match.
Not a match. A similar hue. You're on the color wheel nearby, at least.
You both made a sweeping generalization about someone and assumed they wanted a certain thing, and never really bothered to let that individual person have a vote in their experience. You just took that away from them, infantilized them, and it comes off as degrading.
I don't like to make generalizations about people. I'm not going to assume the woman that walks through the door has never been around a bunch of dudes before.
I mean, it's kinda weird you guys talk about the FLGS like it's worse than the average biker bar. What kinda places are YOU guys at?
I'm talking a bit more generally, about the treatment of women in male-dominated communities. WH40k is just one instance of it.
I've never suggested LGSs are hives of scum & villainy. I have suggested they're not uniquely different from the rest of society, which can be pretty F'd up, including towards particular sexes or genders (or other things).
And I find that caution is a perfectly reasonable response to going alone into a male-dominated community, and that accounting for that caution isn't treating women like snowflakes... it's treating people with context appropriate for that context.
Not for nothing here, and don't take this the wrong way... but you're doing a lotta speaking for women here. But this is me assuming you're a dude, and I've been wrong about genders before.
I am passing along the personal experiences of women I know. That includes women I trust, including my sister.
I do, however, have personal experience with issues of femininity in male-dominated communities. Different enough that I feel I can only empathize reasonably well, but close enough that I feel I have an advantage in recognizing it elsewhere.
I can't speak for all women, though.
It's a pretty simple concept: Be nice to people and be welcoming. Whoever they are. That's it. It's not hard. It's not complicated. It's pretty much the default setting for most groups of people.
It can get complicated, because morality and social interactions are complicated. Being nice and welcoming to Nazis is not going to look particularly nice and welcoming to Jews, for example.
gak's complicated, yo. It's easy to treat things like they're simple, it feels very good. Sometimes things aren't.
I'm also of the mind that people are individuals with their own individual experiences and mindsets, and that combination makes every person unique. I'll let that unique individual's personality determine how they should be treated. Show up with a good attitude, wanting to have fun? Awesome. Show up with a nasty attitude looking to cause drama? Kick rocks. I'm not gonna treat every black guy like he's just stumbled out of the ghetto, or a Hispanic person like English isn't their first language, or a Tau Player like he's 11 years old (sorry guys, I still love you)
A good chunk of the women I play with- including the one I date- would be creeped out if you assumed they came from a world of hardship, terror, and abuse and started acting like you were building a safe little cushion of space for them to hide in. They'd probably call you something very unpleasant. One of those things that's actually a lot funnier when it comes from a woman. I say this not speaking on their behalf, but because I've seen them do it.
OK.
You keep saying "they have every reason to worry". Well, are you sure about that? Look, tell you what: It's not polite to speak on the moral condition of others that you don't know, even if you are the same gender. If they need to worry around you and your people, then by all means say so- I respect the honesty. But don't sit here and paint every group of guys like we're all just a bunch of Ike Turners and Harvey Weinsteins at Epstein's Island with Cosby Cocktails for all the ladies.
Not what I've done. Saying men like that exist, and that many women have had horrible experiences with men like that, is not painting every group of guys like that. It provides the context for which interactions begin, though. It's why being welcoming is important, and why the way you're welcoming is important.
I'm not suggesting, nor have I ever suggested, what I suspect you've imagined to be some sort of gilded cage with fawning or something. I hope I'm wrong, because that'd be an absurd strawman.
Being real honest here? And trying to be nice about it- I'm sorry if it doesn't seem this way, but I really am: When you talk like that... it's kind of creepy to me. Like, you're trying to paint the whole world of other males as this minefield of gropers and creepers, "But you're safe with me!" It's not your intent, I imagine... but that's the way it comes off and honestly I've never seen it actually make anyone comfortable. Anecdotal, sure- but anyone with that kind of attitude... I'm not going to be around them. Sorry if that sounded too harsh, it's just the nicest way I know to say it, man.
Unusual Suspect wrote: If you think what I've talked about reminds you of that person, I don't think you're getting what I'm putting down. I think you're trying to paint me with colors that don't match.
Not a match. A similar hue. You're on the color wheel nearby, at least.
You're mistaken about me. And again, painting me with a pretty ugly brush there. If you can't refrain, having a civil conversation is going to be hard.
I'm a bit late, but I'd like to remind everyone that the GW community practically split down the middle like a month ago because GW said that bigotry isn't okay and and vast swathes of the player base were massively offended by that concept, to the point that there is a coordianted effort going on right now to organize alt-righters who have never even heard of Warhammer to pretend to boycott it.
I just won't be getting behind the generalizing and assuming that everyone who isn't like me has had it rough, is weaker than me, and can't handle a relatively normal social situation. Everyone's got their hang-ups, there's an awkward situation out there for all of us. Most people aren't stumbling into those situations completely clueless.
I don't expect anything but awkward when I go into Victoria's Secret alone to pick out a gift for someone.
Spoiler:
I absolutely delight in it being awkard when I say, "I also want one in my size, and I'm gonna try it on"
You do you, man. Whatever works where you're at, if it's not bothering anyone- keep doing it. What I'm doing works where I'm at and where I've been, so I don't intend to deviate from it.
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lord_blackfang wrote: I'm a bit late, but I'd like to remind everyone that the GW community practically split down the middle like a month ago because GW said that bigotry isn't okay and and vast swathes of the player base were massively offended by that concept.
This confused me.
1- Not sure why that would offend anyone
2- Not sure why it needed to be said like it was a brand new concept
Up next, GW announces we shouldn't stick metal forks in light sockets.
Sadly Adeptus Doritos, Some people need to be told regularly or they forgot.
For me there is one guy where i regular play i am uncomfortable with him behind me, and wont be in the same room as without another friend there.
And often these guys hide behind there buddys, they didnt see and they just dont think he would every do anything like that.
And will whine endlessly about SJW and how they are just being opressed when they are not included.
Making it extremely difficult to put distance from them, and harassers know it.
Endless denability, and mounting as much of the burden as they can onto friends.
This has taken a bit of a turn where i thought it was going positive. Really i think most people in this community have been great, it just sucks that for me. Its basically one that accounts for all my anxiety.
stratigo wrote: "All the stories about bigotry is lies! They never name locations". Maybe cause some of us are afraid of retribution from the bigots in those locations?
You ever thought that maybe there are other gamers out there that won't stand for this? Or maybe other gamers that shouldn't have to experience it by you hiding it? You don't have to drop your own identity to expose a nasty business. This happens all the time. And in 2020, where bigotry seems to be less popular that leprosy, I'm not sure I buy the idea of a local mob of tabletop nerds acting like brownshirts with impunity is a credible narrative.
And that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
stratigo wrote: "Just accept that you'll be propositioned even when you don't want to be. That's just the lot of women".
This post here is bigotry defense 101
"If people like you they will take an interest in you, and they will want to get to know you". That's something every adult human being with any degree of social experiences in literally any part of the world can tell you.
You do realize that... women also talk to men, right? And sometimes men aren't interested in those women, yeah? That... rejecting another person's advances is a part of adult life, and it's only a problem if they persist, right? You are understanding that human beings engaging one another, and finding others attractive is a natural human thing, right?
And if taking an interest in another human being is 'persecution' of some sort, then... well, I feel very sad for you.
"Womenfolk" seemed a bit out of touch with modern life. You're overreacting. And I'm on 'ignore', but I'm pretty sure you're reading this anyway and looking for a reason to report the response. Knock yourself out.
I'll let the mods sort this out. Had a nice conversation with them about this sort of thing recently.
I think it would be extremely worth the mods' time to evaluate some sort of response to flagrant abuses of the report system as well. Perhaps that could cut down on the mountain of reports they have to sift through.
Not Online!!! wrote: The third bits, just personal hygiene suggestion, which seems to be an issue for some in the hobby, beeing of the more social akward side of the spectrum?
There wouldn't be signs up in multiple shops if it wasn't a concern. Also, considering there's some kind of coof going around right now- there's a bit more to the concern than discomfort.
Not Online!!! wrote: I ifnd it more disturbing that you two seem to insinuate that gals can't stand up for themselves and therefore need to be treated like "special " people protected at all times instead of just fellow gamers and hobbiests.
Few things disturb me more than the idea of being inclusive and friendly towards people different from yourself requires you to treat them like mentally defective children, and not like adult human beings.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Istrongly suspect a lock, and not to mention the OP reading your bickering and becoming disheartened about the sorts of people we are.
Nah, keep it rolling.
It'll do wonders to make my point. I don't even need to say anything else. Let her see what people are really like. Let's put on a proper spectacle for her.
No, mostly I expect you want us to name communities so you can spend your time trying to litigate what is and isn't "really" harassment and find ways to actually dox us.
You know, like how this stuff normally goes whenever someone on the internet mentions harassment based on sexism, racism, or homophobia. Like, do you think people are ignorant to how this conversation goes EVERY SINGLE TIME? We're not. It's entirely obvious where you want this to go.
Unusual Suspect wrote: But if you aren't a woman yourself, and you don't talk to women about this sort of thing with an open mind (not directed at you specifically, AD, your approach seemed open-minded), you might not have a good idea of just how scary and intimidating male-dominated communities can be.
Even when they're friendly. Sometimes especially when they're overly friendly. The stories my women friends have told are... disturbing. And stress-inducing.
Being around people who are different from you and doing something unfamiliar and new can be very intimidating, I'm sure.
This is why I advocate treating people like they're... just regular people. Start treating women like delicate snowflakes and you'll probably drive them away faster, in my experience.
After being super clear about having my back, the owner hid behind BS.
I was contacted by a patron after an event (literally woke up to it the next morning.), insulted, threatened, and promised more of the same if I was seen in the store.
I went directly to the owner, shared everything, and asked that the person be, at least, banned from the FB group, at most banned from the store. He wouldn't go for either and said "because it didn't happen in the store, he couldn't do anything."
When I countered with "So you want me to come to the store and knowingly suffer before you'll do anything?"
His answer "Yes."
My wife even when down to the store to speak in person with him (I haven't set foot in it since it happened in February 2019), and spoke with him about it on recording. Same BS. "I don't want to alienate my biggest patrons."
Thank you, this is perfect. All I needed to know.
And if it blows back on you... well, I don't think it'll be a concern.
Just doing my due diligence- you have any idea what the patron's deal was? Like, what set them off? Or just some random crazy?
Just so you know- if they are threatening you via messages, you should take that to the police immediately.
Also, if your conflict didn't start in the store- well, the store owner's responsibility is to keep the drama out of the store. He can't ban someone just because you had a squabble with them elsewhere, unless it's high-visibility- and it can be: If this were some kind of message through Facebook- I recommend taking it and using it to show others what kind of person this player is. Your evidence has collected itself, actually. (No, I don't think you should show that here)
I work in a FLGS. We have customers that don't get along outside the store, and ask us to do something- if it doesn't happen in the store, we can't ban them from the store. We also can't go on a person's word alone. If they bring the drama to the store, we warn them to cool it. If they can't, then the instigator gets banned.
No, mostly I expect you want us to name communities so you can spend your time trying to litigate what is and isn't "really" harassment and find ways to actually dox us.
You know, like how this stuff normally goes whenever someone on the internet mentions harassment based on sexism, racism, or homophobia. Like, do you think people are ignorant to how this conversation goes EVERY SINGLE TIME? We're not. It's entirely obvious where you want this to go.
Vice versa we should just assume harrassment to have happened, without any proof, you know, and also not via the propper institutions to combat it but brought to the cangoroo court that is the online sphere?
Scuse me but: In dubio pro reo is a thing that exists for a reason.
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lord_blackfang wrote: I'm a bit late, but I'd like to remind everyone that the GW community practically split down the middle like a month ago because GW said that bigotry isn't okay and and vast swathes of the player base were massively offended by that concept, to the point that there is a coordianted effort going on right now to organize alt-righters who have never even heard of Warhammer to pretend to boycott it.
Wait what?
I mean, i had my issues with the post, because
A: it's cookie cutter corporate brownie points gathering . If something indeed would happen, then yeah, ok i will retract that part but for now, nothing changed soooo.....
B: It's from a company that at the time had not been in the slightest tangentially part of such an issue or even country. At the time, mind you.
C: It's for everyone, well , except the poor, feth them and their wishes for hoobies. Especially if they lost their jobs due to lockdowns. But Gw is happily increasing prices. Which is also a great way to exclude certain groups no?
And sure there are the usual asshats that will attempt to gather, considering however that the other usual suspects pretend to gather aswell, like peta and the chaos warrior fur coats for one exemple, or actually getting shouted at by commies because your carry case has army in the brand name visible, the only result this shows is how fething monoculture alot of people have become in regards to ideas and ideology.
Nitro Zeus wrote: racism and bigotry doesn’t exist in the U.K. even tangentially
I doubt that.
i just think that problems should be treated with measured responses, and not like gw swings pts balance pendulum.
The issue is, the people who harrass and worse know its hard to press any charges. And evidence is low unless camera. I was grabbed playing, my opponent see. Several people see, and he got sent home.
But its been Complete denial since, His buddys say it may be a overreaction. We didn't see, No evidence.
This is one of the reasons there is left so little room, Too many men brush it away as too difficult to deal with and leave them perfectly capable to do it again. The Measured response was 20 years ago, and now people are just sick of it.
Nitro Zeus wrote: racism and bigotry doesn’t exist in the U.K. even tangentially
I doubt that.
i just think that problems should be treated with measured responses, and not like gw swings pts balance pendulum.
The issue is, the people who harrass and worse know its hard to press any charges. And evidence is low unless camera. I was grabbed playing, my opponent see. Several people see, and he got sent home.
But its been Complete denial since, His buddys say it may be a overreaction. We didn't see, No evidence. This is one of the reasons there is left so little room, Too many men brush it away as too difficult to deal with and leave them perfectly capable to do it again. The Measured response was 20 years ago, and now people are just sick of it.
so, wait a minute, WTF?
Secondly, search another place, no seriously, if people can't stand up for what they see and SURELY have precieved as WRONG, then feck that group, out of principle.
THirdly, beeing sick of something, is not a alid reason to throw out any pretense of due dilligence and process. Themathising it, absolutely , attempting to reverse one of the most important achievements of enlightenment in regards to law is however also not the response to be taken .
VIce versa we know of a lot of lifes beeing also ruined by wrong allegations, which hurts double, because not only paints the target but also real victims in a seriously bad light.
Further, adopting tyranical and unjust measures, in order to fight tyranical and unjust measures makes the situation not better.
Nitro Zeus wrote: racism and bigotry doesn’t exist in the U.K. even tangentially
I doubt that.
i just think that problems should be treated with measured responses, and not like gw swings pts balance pendulum.
The issue is, the people who harrass and worse know its hard to press any charges. And evidence is low unless camera. I was grabbed playing, my opponent see. Several people see, and he got sent home.
But its been Complete denial since, His buddys say it may be a overreaction. We didn't see, No evidence. This is one of the reasons there is left so little room, Too many men brush it away as too difficult to deal with and leave them perfectly capable to do it again. The Measured response was 20 years ago, and now people are just sick of it.
so, wait a minute, WTF?
Secondly, search another place, no seriously, if people can't stand up for what they see and SURELY have precieved as WRONG, then feck that group, out of principle.
THirdly, beeing sick of something, is not a alid reason to throw out any pretense of due dilligence and process. Themathising it, absolutely , attempting to reverse one of the most important achievements of enlightenment in regards to law is however also not the response to be taken .
VIce versa we know of a lot of lifes beeing also ruined by wrong allegations, which hurts double, because not only paints the target but also real victims in a seriously bad light.
Further, adopting tyranical and unjust measures, in order to fight tyranical and unjust measures makes the situation not better.
That is the issue, Due Dilligence is used more often against Victims than it is to find innocence or guilt. In some cases its had to come with many victims all coming forward at once, and its the reason this trial by fire is happening now. These men hide behind other men and we see it most often online, But it happens offline as well.
Often these same men will push for more proof, and use that search as another way to harrass Victims.
I dont really just dont have much options, So i am doing the best i can in my capacity. Its that or give up the hobby all together.
stratigo wrote: No, mostly I expect you want us to name communities so you can spend your time trying to litigate what is and isn't "really" harassment and find ways to actually dox us.
Yeah, I wanna dox you so I can... uh... well...
...I'm sure I gain some benefit out of this, just... gimme a bit. I'll have to really think on this one, but I'll get back to you.
stratigo wrote: You know, like how this stuff normally goes whenever someone on the internet mentions harassment based on sexism, racism, or homophobia. Like, do you think people are ignorant to how this conversation goes EVERY SINGLE TIME? We're not. It's entirely obvious where you want this to go.
Apple fox wrote: And often these guys hide behind there buddys, they didnt see and they just dont think he would every do anything like that.
And will whine endlessly about SJW and how they are just being opressed when they are not included.
Making it extremely difficult to put distance from them, and harassers know it.
Endless denability, and mounting as much of the burden as they can onto friends.
So the stories go.
Hey, all I can say is if this is the experience in a FLGS: Talk to the owner. Owner doesn't believe you? Leave and don't go back. Your wallet can be pretty loud.
Apple fox wrote: Often these same men will push for more proof, and use that search as another way to harrass Victims.
I dont really just dont have much options, So i am doing the best i can in my capacity. Its that or give up the hobby all together.
...so if they're using that to harass you, you have proof of harassment.
Unless they're doing it in person. I'm sure you've got a phone with a recorder, right? Just a suggestion.
And sorry, these days- yeah, people kinda want proof before taking action. Word alone isn't enough. You want someone to hear you out, understand your grief, sure- we got you there. But if you want someone to do anything... don't expect that without evidence. Because at that point, I'm sticking my neck out for someone on their word... and I don't think I need to explain how that backfires when someone is lying.
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Apple fox wrote: That is the issue, Due Dilligence is used more often against Victims than it is to find innocence or guilt.
Can you explain what you mean by this? I'm not sure I follow you. I'm also a bit groggy, so I'm running half-stupid brain.
I think you only need to look at the way women coming out online get harassed, Often if they dont have the power and a fanbase simply there as a buffer they can be forced offline completely.
If you get out a phone, then they just wander away in many cases. If people respond they cry harassment.
Gaslighting and Denial are powerful tools when all the proof is dropped onto the victims.
Also i think this will be my last post, just not a fun mood to be put in.
No, mostly I expect you want us to name communities so you can spend your time trying to litigate what is and isn't "really" harassment and find ways to actually dox us.
You know, like how this stuff normally goes whenever someone on the internet mentions harassment based on sexism, racism, or homophobia. Like, do you think people are ignorant to how this conversation goes EVERY SINGLE TIME? We're not. It's entirely obvious where you want this to go.
Vice versa we should just assume harrassment to have happened, without any proof, you know, and also not via the propper institutions to combat it but brought to the cangoroo court that is the online sphere?
Scuse me but: In dubio pro reo is a thing that exists for a reason.
Hello everyone, I am here to tell you.
Believe victims.
Thank you.
We are not a court of law. We are not prosecutors. We are not police. And these groups regularly ignore harassment and pass over all claims, often only after spending their time dragging the victim through the mud and making things much worse for them.
Apple fox wrote: I think you only need to look at the way women coming out online get harassed, Often if they dont have the power and a fanbase simply there as a buffer they can be forced offline completely.
I'm sure harassment happens.
I'm also certain that if you're making a pretty harsh claim- especially one that could be considered a crime- well, people are going to want evidence. If you make a bold claim without any? Well, yeah- expect some blowback. It's the internet, for one- trolls are gonna troll. Secondly, it's the internet- these people aren't your friends. They don't know you. They don't have any credibility for you to rely on.
You think people haven't made up lies about someone to get revenge, or to just make their life difficult, or for financial gain? Oh- there's an entire industry around writing smear pieces, it's nothing new.
Like that fictional crazy Vicodin-gobbling doctor on a cane said, "People Lie". And on the internet, a lot of people lie. People have been lying on the internet, since there was an internet. I'd almost wager the first exchange between two people on the internet probably involved a lie.
You tell me a story about being harassed. Okay, cool- what do you want? Me to... not harass people and be against harassment? Well, I have good news. I was doing that before you came along, and I've no intention to alter that. So... what's the end state you're looking for? I'm not going to do anything without evidence- ruining someone's life, livelihood, etc. over a stranger's claims is also harassment.
Perspective:
The gaming shops are full of sexist creepers. Just all over the place, it's a nightmare out there.
But there's no possible way that anyone gets on the internet and just lies about this, no one could be that bad.
I ain't saying it don't happen. But I'm also gonna say that it doesn't matter if a bunch of strangers on the internet believe you- until someone can manifest evidence or some credible information against the person you're accusing... it's just a story on the internet. But fortunately, you live in 2020- where that can be enough to damage someone significantly.
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stratigo wrote: We are not a court of law. We are not prosecutors. We are not police. And these groups regularly ignore harassment and pass over all claims, often only after spending their time dragging the victim through the mud and making things much worse for them.
We're also not counselors. We're not a lynch mob. We are not gullible enough to believe every claim on the internet.
At the end of the day- if I am none of the above: What difference does it make if I believe them or not?
I'm still... not going to harass anyone, or be okay with harassment. What I believe or don't believe does absolutely nothing.
If the person making a claim needs me to believe them on the internet more than they need actual justice, then I'm questioning the motive.
See, here's the fun thing about "believing everyone that claims to be a victim"... now anyone can make a claim on the internet that something happened, and you just... gladly accept this as a truth? Well, see- that's all fun and games until you're the one that gets accused.
Go on and tell me that 'false claims never happen', because I can tell you- they do. People lie. And they'll lie about these things- they'll lie about much, much worse. Don't think that any particular group or type of person is incapable of it, and that any particular type of claim is off limits. I worked in a profession for a long time and saw many people fabricate all manner of nightmare narratives that were horrifying to hear, and it was even more horrifying to hear that they'd fabricated it- and just as horrifying to hear why they did it. The worst being, "I just wanted to be noticed".
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