Stopped by local store.
checked out some new boxes. and was a bit stunned for a heartbeat.

5 Incubi $55 bucks?! that is $11 per model, are you kidding me. I can eat out for a week.

Repentia squad $55 bucks, that is quite an investment, but kinda reasonable, but kinda not.
Retributor Squad, $55 bucks... I am done.

Is this normal, or I have not been at a local shop in a while?

Yeah, they've started getting pretty aggressive with the yearly price increases over the past 3-4 years now. Zerkers went up from 32.50 euros to 39 euros this year alone. New unit kits are always 45 quid at least too, though they might be cheaper if they're an elite unit with half the total number of models.

Sometimes I think they're high. Then I remember that a single metal Wraithguard used to be 10 or 11 bucks in a blister, and I think "okay so they're still roughly 10 dollars". But THEN I remember that Dire Avengers were 8 or 10 in a box for 25 or 30$ at some point, and now they're 5 in a box for 35.

And then I remember that I already have a ton of models and ebay is a thing.

a fat guy wrote:
Yeah, they've started getting pretty aggressive with the yearly price increases over the past 3-4 years now. Zerkers went up from 32.50 euros to 39 euros this year alone. New unit kits are always 45 quid at least too, though they might be cheaper if they're an elite unit with half the total number of models.

k

You know what was funny, in the shop, new box is $55 for 5 lads.
And in a consignment case, where folk sell their things for store credit, 10 Kabalites for $15

I walked into the store, and got out with same feeling I had back in 2015, I can't afford this game, again.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sometimes I think they're high. Then I remember that a single metal Wraithguard used to be 10 or 11 bucks in a blister, and I think "okay so they're still roughly 10 dollars". But THEN I remember that Dire Avengers were 8 or 10 in a box for 25 or 30$ at some point, and now they're 5 in a box for 35.

And then I remember that I already have a ton of models and ebay is a thing.

"And then I remember that I already have a ton of models"
Amen

Price have increased significantly since the last two years after a long period in which prices basically remained the same.

 Blackie wrote:
Price have increased significantly since the last two years after a long period in which prices basically remained the same.

As in euros right, because in other currancies there was no time where the prices wouldn't go up?

Karol wrote:

As in euros right, because in other currancies there was no time where the prices wouldn't go up?

I don't know about $ or £ or other currancies but in euro we had the same prices in 5-7th editions here, basically 10ish years. Then late 7th-beginning 8th new kits became more expensive on average and in 2018 there was a price hike on several older kits. After/during the lockdown a second price hike on older kits, and new kits (like sisters) simply adjusted to the prices GW decided to set a few years ago.

 Blackie wrote:

Karol wrote:

As in euros right, because in other currancies there was no time where the prices wouldn't go up?

I don't know about $ or £ or other currancies but in euro we had the same prices in 5-7th editions here, basically 10ish years. Then late 7th-beginning 8th new kits became more expensive on average and in 2018 there was a price hike on several older kits. After/during the lockdown a second price hike on older kits, and new kits (like sisters) simply adjusted to the prices GW decided to set a few years ago.

It's funny because even when I first started this hobby I can remember my parents remarking how expensive it all was, if they knew where it would end up I doubt they'd let me anywhere near a GW

 Blackie wrote:
Price have increased significantly since the last two years after a long period in which prices basically remained the same.

K, so I have not been around for a while.

I though GW got good, I though they have changed!

 Blackie wrote:

Karol wrote:

As in euros right, because in other currancies there was no time where the prices wouldn't go up?

I don't know about $ or £ or other currancies but in euro we had the same prices in 5-7th editions here, basically 10ish years. Then late 7th-beginning 8th new kits became more expensive on average and in 2018 there was a price hike on several older kits. After/during the lockdown a second price hike on older kits, and new kits (like sisters) simply adjusted to the prices GW decided to set a few years ago.

that must have been real nice.

I've been out of the geedub bubble for a while but looking at newer kits to add to the marine half of the starter was a bit of a shock above what I was braced for

I think ill be sticking with my pointy ears although looking forward to killy lilly costing the same as a box of wychs

Yep even though the advances in manufacturing tech has driven the actual cost of production way down. even figuring in overhead for shelf space and creating the original molds/sculpts the prices are still very high.

For those prices i can just buy all my DUST minis as full premium, fully painted and weathered ready to play.

Take a look at mantic games as well for comparison-3 custodus jetbikes were $66 here last time i looked. i can get 4 warpath jetbikes for $20 in plastic.

There are lots of other comparisons like warlord games and such who regularly run at 50% of GW prices .

There is a reason i have not bought a GW model in years. last thing i ever bought new from them was a reaver titan from titanicus to go with my 3rd party epic 40K army back when titanicus first got released.

Lolz, I remember the gakstorm after age of sigmar was out. army and book burning, everyone making videos about leaving the hobby.
Few years later, GW got new management, got (start collecting) boxes, reasonable prices, new models, engaged the community.

So the reason I asked people about this is because I was shocked by price, and saw Kid_Kyoto's signature.
And was like, Noooooo, is OLD GW coming back???

Prices are high because people are willing to pay them. If everyone stopped buying products, the prices would go down, but alas 90% of 40k players just accept whatever is given them with no complaints.

GW finally learned how to market to the normies, and thus have a larger playerbase to sell to, thus can afford to cut "dead weight" from long-time loyalists.

It also helps that they can use IP law as a cudgel to prevent any competition.

 aphyon wrote:
Yep even though the advances in manufacturing tech has driven the actual cost of production way down. even figuring in overhead for shelf space and creating the original molds/sculpts the prices are still very high.

For those prices i can just buy all my DUST minis as full premium, fully painted and weathered ready to play.

Take a look at mantic games as well for comparison-3 custodus jetbikes were $66 here last time i looked. i can get 4 warpath jetbikes for $20 in plastic.

There are lots of other comparisons like warlord games and such who regularly run at 50% of GW prices .

There is a reason i have not bought a GW model in years. last thing i ever bought new from them was a reaver titan from titanicus to go with my 3rd party epic 40K army back when titanicus first got released.

Sup man!
Yep, last thing for me was few (start collecting) boxes when they where $80 back in 2018

Well they are trying to position themselves as a premium brand.
I'd expect the price trend to continue.

Some kit's prices are truely insane. I really want a melee squad of plague marines, but to get one, I have to buy two boxes of the 7 marine set.
Even with discounts, that would 64€ for just one unit of melee troops, while something like a defiler is just 50€.

And let's not get started on mek guns. Beautiful models, awesome on the tabletop, but nothing will ever be able to justify a unit of them clocking in at 160€.

Shinji wrote:
Well they are trying to position themselves as a premium brand.
I'd expect the price trend to continue.

there's othing premium about gw tho, take tamaya vehicles, way more detailed.
Take Resin from Anvil industry: I built 70 dudes from them and had to clean resin maybee all of 20 minutes, compare that to the gak GW demands premium for aka FW and Failcast and how they treat their game balance...

Wait, I though they dont IP people anymore, as much.
or is the past repeating it self?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zSxQnZ3TM8

 Mothsniper wrote:

Wait, I though they dont IP people anymore, as much.
or is the past repeating it self?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zSxQnZ3TM8

What I mean is that no competitor can make their own Adeptus Astartes models to compete with GWs. If you want Intercessors, you have 1 option, Citadel Miniatures and if you don't like the price, you can go to hell.

If it was possible for other companies to make Intercessors, there would be competition and the prices would go down.

Shinji wrote:
Well they are trying to position themselves as a premium brand.
I'd expect the price trend to continue.

that would suck. wait, premium brand in game or hobby?
Because as a premium brand far as the hobby goes, I think I speak for everyone when I say (I have back log of unfinished models and projects that will comfortably occupy my free time for next 3-5 years without buying a single model)

 Mothsniper wrote:

Shinji wrote:
Well they are trying to position themselves as a premium brand.
I'd expect the price trend to continue.

that would suck. wait, premium brand in game or hobby?
Because as a premium brand far as the hobby goes, I think I speak for everyone when I say (I have back log of unfinished models and projects that will comfortably occupy my free time for next 3-5 years without buying a single model)

What's that? Your old models suddenly have sub-par rules, and their replacements are better in every way? Oh no, that sucks /s

The current price scheme is why I haven't bought anything new from GW for quite some time. If I want something these day, I'll just look to ebay.

Now, GW could maybe get me to reconsider that decision by releasing some new DE units (note: new units, not yet more resculpts of existing models). However, at this point, that seems about as likely as me launching a spacecraft built entirely out of marshmallow.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:

Shinji wrote:
Well they are trying to position themselves as a premium brand.
I'd expect the price trend to continue.

that would suck. wait, premium brand in game or hobby?
Because as a premium brand far as the hobby goes, I think I speak for everyone when I say (I have back log of unfinished models and projects that will comfortably occupy my free time for next 3-5 years without buying a single model)

What's that? Your old models suddenly have sub-par rules, and their replacements are better in every way? Oh no, that sucks /s

Your army that cost premium now sucks, and you complain, better squat it/S

 BaconCatBug wrote:

What I mean is that no competitor can make their own Adeptus Astartes models to compete with GWs. If you want Intercessors, you have 1 option, Citadel Miniatures and if you don't like the price, you can go to hell.
If it was possible for other companies to make Intercessors, there would be competition and the prices would go down.

did not even think of that

Not Online!!! wrote:

Shinji wrote:
Well they are trying to position themselves as a premium brand.
I'd expect the price trend to continue.

there's othing premium about gw tho, take tamaya vehicles, way more detailed.
Take Resin from Anvil industry: I built 70 dudes from them and had to clean resin maybee all of 20 minutes, compare that to the gak GW demands premium for aka FW and Failcast and how they treat their game balance...

Hey I agree on the quality. My opinion is more which segment of the market they are shooting for.
Higher ticket items for a more targeted segment (deep pockets) rather than just being a mass market kind of thing.

And by that I mean a certain segment is willing to pay a high premium for model specific rules, intricacy of said models (which again I don't find appealing), lore and universe built up around them.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:

Shinji wrote:
Well they are trying to position themselves as a premium brand.
I'd expect the price trend to continue.

that would suck. wait, premium brand in game or hobby?
Because as a premium brand far as the hobby goes, I think I speak for everyone when I say (I have back log of unfinished models and projects that will comfortably occupy my free time for next 3-5 years without buying a single model)

What's that? Your old models suddenly have sub-par rules, and their replacements are better in every way? Oh no, that sucks /s

Your army that cost premium now sucks, and you complain, better squat it/S

Too bad, I am in it for the hobby, new insesters and innersesters are out? don't care, have 80 dwarfs to paint lolz

Uh.. did my post get deleted or something?

Yeah, your inflammatory, rude and off topic post was removed. Please keep on topic from now on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNzSOyYBaH4
Games Workshop Price INCREASE Scam Explained (June 2020)

Found this.

So that is why those boxes are $55... because new sets are coming out at $60, that makes sense now.

 Mothsniper wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNzSOyYBaH4
Games Workshop Price INCREASE Scam Explained (June 2020)

Found this.

So that is why those boxes are $55... because new sets are coming out at $60, that makes sense now.

So just basic business psychological manipulation

 Mothsniper wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNzSOyYBaH4
Games Workshop Price INCREASE Scam Explained (June 2020)

Found this.

So that is why those boxes are $55... because new sets are coming out at $60, that makes sense now.

Yeah scam is to harsh a word for that. They are not doing hiding anything or using any special tricks to manipulate consumers there outside of what you can see in other products.
It's just a pretty aggressive pricing policy.

It's more of a question if you find enough value in the product to justify the price point.

That is a good explanation. I don't think any company would want to explain why it sold 10 models for some price and then started selling 5 models for the same price, or 10 models for more then double the original price. Specially if those all are the same models.

 Jidmah wrote:
Some kit's prices are truely insane. I really want a melee squad of plague marines, but to get one, I have to buy two boxes of the 7 marine set.
Even with discounts, that would 64€ for just one unit of melee troops, while something like a defiler is just 50€.

And let's not get started on mek guns. Beautiful models, awesome on the tabletop, but nothing will ever be able to justify a unit of them clocking in at 160€.

Yeah we tallied up my friend epic scale thousand sons army IIRC it was something like

2-4 fell blades
2 hell talons
1 thunderhawk
40 rubric terminators + 4 sorcerer terminator leaders
a spru of characters for his general sorcerers
.4 greater demons

All in all it was like $120 US.....and in regular 40K prices it was pushing $3,500


something like 10K points in 8th edition rules.

That is a good explanation. I don't think any company would want to explain why it sold 10 models for some price and then started selling 5 models for the same price, or 10 models for more then double the original price. Specially if those all are the same models.

Well they may not want to explain it but my buddy who is a guard player remembers when 20 man squads of infantry cost half as much as what they charge for 10 now and they are basically the same kit.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sometimes I think they're high. Then I remember that a single metal Wraithguard used to be 10 or 11 bucks in a blister

Games were smaller then though. No one expected people to run an entire army of wraith guard unless you were REALLY into them. Back then I had three zoanthropes and that would be considered excessive, now it wouldn't even be considered a complete unit by a lot of people.

It wont just the the $55 for the box of dudes. Sadly many games companies are really expensive these days.

It’s the money you will also need to spend on:

Ever changing Codex’s and/or a new monthly App subscription
Constant new books that add to rules
Objectives Cards
Other faff that GW puts out.
etc etc.

 Jidmah wrote:
Some kit's prices are truely insane. I really want a melee squad of plague marines, but to get one, I have to buy two boxes of the 7 marine set.
Even with discounts, that would 64€ for just one unit of melee troops, while something like a defiler is just 50€.

And let's not get started on mek guns. Beautiful models, awesome on the tabletop, but nothing will ever be able to justify a unit of them clocking in at 160€.

About high prices orks there are two examples that really bother me, other than mek gunz (which are still one of the few units that costs 1euro per point, despite units became more expensive pointswise). The first in our flyers: they cost 36 when the kit had 3 options, then during 7th GW added of a single set of sprue which combined to the price hikes in 2020 set the box at 60 euro, almost double the price. I mean, in 2017 I could buy a dakkajet/burna/bomber for 36 euro, now if I want the same exact model I have to pay 60, lol.

The second example is the naut, which was already very expensive: 85 till 2017. It was increased to 100 a couple years ago, wow, like the titanic Stompa. And it has the same exact box, not even getting re-based like other kits and yet it got a flat +15 euro hike. At least GW didn't raise its price again a couple of months ago, that would have been the ultimate joke.

The full unit of mek gunz (6 pieces of artillery) costs 240 euro, for 240 to 390 points depending on what type of gun the hobbyst decides to go for.

It doesn't want to be a rant, I know it's a free market and I'm not complaining. In fact I have all the models I want and this new policy just makes my collection worth more. I just stated facts though, and if I had to start now to collect my army now way I could afford it, plain and simple. So I understand the reactions of those who left the hobby years ago and recently had a look on new GW kits.

Yeah no it's not just you. I bought a GSC army when they were brand new in mid 7th ed, and 35$ for 5 acolytes was considered a crime against humanity.

Now it's 55$ for 5...

I recall a thread about this some time ago. I recall complaining about selfsame and saying something along the lines of "I understand inflation is a thing, but it feels like the difference between now, and when I started in the nineties is way outstripping inflation."

Then someone else actually did those calculations using some online inflation tool and showed that average prices were actually somewhat below inflation. The lesson for me was not to conflate my feelings with actual arithmetic.

On the other hand, I also read an article comparing minimum wage to inflation, and guess what: that fell some ways below inflation too, so yeah. Feth capitalism I guess.

Here I am about to give GW more money on a Dominion and Celestian kit... eek.

Honestly GW's inflated prices in the UK aren't as bad as some other hobbies - I've seen camera year go up by insane amounts as a result of market slowing, inflation, recessions, china messing around with raw material imports etc...

In the end we all hate paying more, we all dislike it. But if you want to remain part of the hobby then that's the cost you have to justify to yourself to keep involved. One big bonus is that whilst GW releases new models and updates old ones, many of the armies are still running around with models where generation 1 models are still valid.

My tyranids still have gaunts, zoanthropes, warriors, rippers - all things that were around in generation 1 and most of those I stated can still be used without any issue today. Sure things like warriors have more weapon options now and things like Hive Tyrants and Carnifex have become far larger than in the past. But in general a lot of the models have retained a valid place in the army. Heck look at eldar - one of the regular requests is for plastic aspect warriors and yet when GW redid the banshee they are still of the same size and style as the first generation ones. If you've still got first gen you don't "have" to get the new ones.


So on many ways one big bonus is that GW's models do retain quite a decent long term value.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
I recall a thread about this some time ago. I recall complaining about selfsame and saying something along the lines of "I understand inflation is a thing, but it feels like the difference between now, and when I started in the nineties is way outstripping inflation."

Then someone else actually did those calculations using some online inflation tool and showed that average prices were actually somewhat below inflation. The lesson for me was not to conflate my feelings with actual arithmetic.

I think that is just false.

Earliest datapoint I know of is 10£ per 30 models of space marine. Around 88-ish. Compare that to any particular modern box of your choosing and extrapolate the rate.
For reference I think 1£ would be roughly 2.5-3£ today.

Shinji wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
I recall a thread about this some time ago. I recall complaining about selfsame and saying something along the lines of "I understand inflation is a thing, but it feels like the difference between now, and when I started in the nineties is way outstripping inflation."

Then someone else actually did those calculations using some online inflation tool and showed that average prices were actually somewhat below inflation. The lesson for me was not to conflate my feelings with actual arithmetic.

I think that is just false.

Earliest datapoint I know of is 10£ per 30 models of space marine. Around 88-ish. Compare that to any particular modern box of your choosing and extrapolate the rate.
For reference I think 1£ would be roughly 2.5-3£ today.

£10 in 1988 pounds is £27.02 in 2019 pounds.

Slightly different take here:

GW is behaving exactly the way any company big enough to have shareholders behaves when some disruptive technology is on their radar. You don't have to be particularly tech-savy to know that 3d printing is right on the edge of being mature enough to invalidate GW's entire business model. They just invested in that big new factory (relatively speaking), and now they're trying to squeeze every penny they can out of that investment before the timer runs out. None of us like it, but expecting anything else is silly.

We even have a pretty good idea of what the aftermath looks like, we've seen stuff like this happen before. Compare the price of a CD right before file-sharing took off to the price of a CD today. GW is the RIAA, Thingiverse is Limewire, the end result will be a box of Intercessors costing $15-$20 like it should be now based on production costs, and there will be some ugly lawsuits between here and there.

In 1990, when I was just getting into Rogue Trader, a box of Space Marines could be had for $30USD and contained enough sprues to make 30 Space Marines. According to this site $30USD in 1990 is worth almost $60USD today, so it's not as bad as it sounds. But still, yes, they've upped the prices considerably over the years.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Shinji wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
I recall a thread about this some time ago. I recall complaining about selfsame and saying something along the lines of "I understand inflation is a thing, but it feels like the difference between now, and when I started in the nineties is way outstripping inflation."

Then someone else actually did those calculations using some online inflation tool and showed that average prices were actually somewhat below inflation. The lesson for me was not to conflate my feelings with actual arithmetic.

I think that is just false.

Earliest datapoint I know of is 10£ per 30 models of space marine. Around 88-ish. Compare that to any particular modern box of your choosing and extrapolate the rate.
For reference I think 1£ would be roughly 2.5-3£ today.

£10 in 1988 pounds is £27.02 in 2019 pounds.

And a 1st Class Stamp has risen from 20p in 1989 to 76p in 2019 -

 dadx6 wrote:
In 1990, when I was just getting into Rogue Trader, a box of Space Marines could be had for $30USD and contained enough sprues to make 30 Space Marines. According to this site $30USD in 1990 is worth almost $60USD today, so it's not as bad as it sounds. But still, yes, they've upped the prices considerably over the years.

2$ per model vs todays 6$ per model? That's 3x inflation rate. Tolerances differ ofc. So I'm not trying to imply that you should not find that acceptable ofc.

It was also a different kit, smaller models and worst plastic. So you need to take into and account better and bigger models.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
It was also a different kit, smaller models and worst plastic. So you need to take into and account better and bigger models.

Well no I don't necessarily have to. That's a more subjective measurement as the quality increase can be valued different between you and me it's not necessarily something we can agree upon. If my sole purpose was to play the game one model is just as good as another.

There are also process technology improvements over the years which often just lead to more bang for the same buck... 3d printing, CAD design, etc...

So measuring in models/grams/liters/kgs seems a more impartial way of looking at this.

 dadx6 wrote:
In 1990, when I was just getting into Rogue Trader, a box of Space Marines could be had for $30USD and contained enough sprues to make 30 Space Marines. According to this site $30USD in 1990 is worth almost $60USD today, so it's not as bad as it sounds. But still, yes, they've upped the prices considerably over the years.

Prices are not that hight comparing to 2nd-3rd edition kits, most of them with metal parts. I remember gretchins were sold in blisters of 4 models so in order to get the full squad of 30 plus runtherd you'd have need to buy 9 blisters, now the same squad cost half money not even counting inflaction (and you'll also get 3 runtherds instead of one).

But kits are way more expensive than they were in 2010, when most of them were already pure plastic, that's the point. Without going back that much compare 2017 prices, many kits are now 20% more expensive and they haven't changed a bit. New releases are also 20-30% more expensive comparing to their equivalents (in terms of battle role and number of models like 10 new sisters vs 10 tacticals or immolator/exorcist vs razorback/predator) of a few years ago.

The Newman wrote:
Slightly different take here:

GW is behaving exactly the way any company big enough to have shareholders behaves when some disruptive technology is on their radar. You don't have to be particularly tech-savy to know that 3d printing is right on the edge of being mature enough to invalidate GW's entire business model. They just invested in that big new factory (relatively speaking), and now they're trying to squeeze every penny they can out of that investment before the timer runs out. None of us like it, but expecting anything else is silly.

We even have a pretty good idea of what the aftermath looks like, we've seen stuff like this happen before. Compare the price of a CD right before file-sharing took off to the price of a CD today. GW is the RIAA, Thingiverse is Limewire, the end result will be a box of Intercessors costing $15-$20 like it should be now based on production costs, and there will be some ugly lawsuits between here and there.

Yarp I think theres a bit of that to consider and whilst we are a way off yet its a coming, think terrain will feel the pinch first as minis still need a degree of tech-wots and time so overpriced convinence will hold for a maybe another decade

beast_gts wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Shinji wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
I recall a thread about this some time ago. I recall complaining about selfsame and saying something along the lines of "I understand inflation is a thing, but it feels like the difference between now, and when I started in the nineties is way outstripping inflation."

Then someone else actually did those calculations using some online inflation tool and showed that average prices were actually somewhat below inflation. The lesson for me was not to conflate my feelings with actual arithmetic.

I think that is just false.

Earliest datapoint I know of is 10£ per 30 models of space marine. Around 88-ish. Compare that to any particular modern box of your choosing and extrapolate the rate.
For reference I think 1£ would be roughly 2.5-3£ today.

£10 in 1988 pounds is £27.02 in 2019 pounds.

And a 1st Class Stamp has risen from 20p in 1989 to 76p in 2019 -

Spoiler:

Source

Apples to oranges. Firstly, the actual cost of moving mail around has increased in price due to a volume increase. Making injection moulds and plastic has not gone up in price above inflation. Secondly, the Royal Mail used to be subsidied. Now it's a private company.

The actual cost of moving mail around should DECREASE per item with increased volume, though.

nekooni wrote:
The actual cost of moving mail around should DECREASE per item with increased volume, though.

No? You can't just slap more letters into a van and expect the price/letter to go down. Eventually you'll need a second van, which doubles the cost. You need more infrastructure and more staff to meet with rising demand, plus privatisation means you need to may middle and upper management more.

nekooni wrote:
The actual cost of moving mail around should DECREASE per item with increased volume, though.

Yesn't?

To a degree as capacities get fuller, efficiency goes up, however at some point the volume increases to a point were you need to invest further, adding fix cost and lowering efficency due to a time of lower efficency..

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nekooni wrote:
The actual cost of moving mail around should DECREASE per item with increased volume, though.

No? You can't just slap more letters into a van and expect the price/letter to go down. Eventually you'll need a second van, which doubles the cost. You need more infrastructure and more staff to meet with rising demand, plus privatisation means you need to may middle and upper management more.

Yes, but the more vans you buy the cheaper each van gets,basically. And if you have 100 vans you might consider having your own maintenance facility as that's cheaper than going to an external workshop at some point, stuff like that.

High tech sorting machines are not efficient for 10 or 100 mails a day, but at some point using them is cheaper than manual sorting.

Economies of scale, basically.

Privatisation is a different beast, I didn't comment on that. I don't think privatising essential services was a good idea, at least not in Germany and especially not for the consumer.

The day i got myself a 40$ gunpla kit is when i realised how much GW is ridiculous with its pricing.

for 40$ you get : an articulated model that requires no glue nor paint to assemble. Some parts are molded on the sprue with articulations. You get tons of weapons options and stickers too.

For 40$ at GW, you get : one monopose character that might have a head option if youre lucky.

GW hasn't gotten a penny from me since then, all my models come for alternative sources

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
The day i got myself a 40$ gunpla kit is when i realised how much GW is ridiculous with its pricing.

for 40$ you get : an articulated model that requires no glue nor paint to assemble. Some parts are molded on the sprue with articulations. You get tons of weapons options and stickers too.

For 40$ at GW, you get : one monopose character that might have a head option if youre lucky.

GW hasn't gotten a penny from me since then, all my models come for alternative sources

Not to crap on gunpla but if they're anything like the Kotobukiya Metal Gear Rex model I got the plastic is much softer and they aren't nearly as detailed as GWs sculpts.

Back in 1985 or so there were also Robotech plastic snap-together destroids that I used for Imperial robots in WH40K (which were a thing in 1st edition Compendium). Those cost maybe $8USD and were pretty high quality stuff. (I think they were the Bandai models, not the Revell ones, but I'm not sure - this was more than 30 years ago)

I think it's definitely the case that demand has a lot more to do with GW's pricing system than raw materials, shipping, or overhead.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
The day i got myself a 40$ gunpla kit is when i realised how much GW is ridiculous with its pricing.

for 40$ you get : an articulated model that requires no glue nor paint to assemble. Some parts are molded on the sprue with articulations. You get tons of weapons options and stickers too.

For 40$ at GW, you get : one monopose character that might have a head option if youre lucky.

GW hasn't gotten a penny from me since then, all my models come for alternative sources

Not to crap on gunpla but if they're anything like the Kotobukiya Metal Gear Rex model I got the plastic is much softer and they aren't nearly as detailed as GWs sculpts.

plastic seems about the same softness as GW, and sure, were talking about big robots with mostly plates, but the "skeleton" inside those plates is quite detailed.
I have a hard time believing that making a monopose model, no matter how detailed they are, costs more than managing a fully articulated, multi color robot.

Doesn't gunpla have a market way bigger than GW's and also mostly restricted to one bracket (asian) with less being done outside. Which isn't to say that they don't supply other territories, but that their home-base is very strongly embedded in one region.

Plus do they run their own stores and setup and also produce in china/asian bracket?

All things that might give them not only vastly increased sales but also lower overall operating costs.




Part of the luxury cost of GW is paying to have products produced in the UK as opposed to China/India etc...

Yeah, about GW's pricing.
1. Secondhand is a thing. You can get TERRIFIC deals if you are willing to wait and look around a bit.
2. Compared to what I've sunk into M:tG, the amount that GW has gotten off of me has been a comparative pittance.

Also, keep in mind that a retailer tends to get stuff for about half of what is marked on the box, so keep 2 things in mind:
1. You can usually get some discount if you ask for it.
2. If you like to play in a FLGS setting, don't begrudge that same FLGS the markup.

At the risk of being called a white knight I honestly think a lot of the complaints about price are unreasonable.

The scale GW is operating on nowadays versus in the past is completely different. They have literally hundreds of stores (at least 500), they've expanded their production capacity, they've increased Black Library's output ( compared to when I started in 4E, both in number of authors and frequency of releases), are expanding the breadth of their product line year over year, have a community engagement team, and are now even branching into doing visual media with Story Forge.

There is no other company that I can think of in the miniatures wargame space doing anything close to all of that, much less on the same scale.

If you expand to any miniatures then the closest you can get is probably Bandai with Gunpla. But Bandai is massively larger than GW, sells Gunpla as just a single facet of their media mix strategy, doesn't have to worry about all of the associated trappings of a miniatures game, or doing significant amounts of design work on new releases (yes I know the kit designs and variations like Super Deformed don't just materialize from thin air, but the actual suit designs and lore are largely just taken from the anime/manga/games).

So yeah, as a consumer would I like cheaper priced kits? Of course I would!
Am I willing to pay a higher price if it means that GW continues to operate Warhammer stores I can visit, constantly releases new products (while rarely discontinuing old ones), and continues to develop and expand into new forms of media for me to enjoy and share with my friends. Absolutely!

 Overread wrote:
Doesn't gunpla have a market way bigger than GW's and also mostly restricted to one bracket (asian) with less being done outside. Which isn't to say that they don't supply other territories, but that their home-base is very strongly embedded in one region.

Plus do they run their own stores and setup and also produce in china/asian bracket?

All things that might give them not only vastly increased sales but also lower overall operating costs.




Part of the luxury cost of GW is paying to have products produced in the UK as opposed to China/India etc...

yeah, but as a consumer, i don't care about the back end stuff, what matters to me is 1: the quality and 2: the price.
Gunpla outmaches GW's quality by a very large margin while staying more affordable.

As a British citizen it actually matters a lot to me that GW manufactures here.

Yeah. One has to recognise that GW pays UK salaries to UK citizens (Or well, European ones) with European job conditions and pays taxes in UK.


The crime would be if they produced chinese kits with chinese factory workers (I know their print material and some scenery or most of it is from china, thats why I don't buy those kits) and still had those prices, like Apple or most electronic companies.


That doesnt mean GW could shurely not lower but not increase prices as aggresively. I have only bought from GW direct like 3 times in my life. The collection of armies I have would not be possible buying from GW with GW prices: Ebay, second hand, people leaving the hobby, and many buys at stores both from spain and UK with 15-20% discount are the things that allowed me to actually be part of this hobby with armies that I can use.

I just looked at £ to $ conversions for a few models and it seems we are paying $10-$15 extra per box in the US and that is AFTER the exchange rate. Not to mention there are several options that are out of stock for the US that are available webstore only for UK. I understand there are additional costs for shipping and such but that seems a pretty steep markup.

I definitely see 3D printing as a threat to this market and another avenue would be things like tabletop simulator. Especially if the new normal is no in-store gaming.

TheAmazinGreat wrote:
I just looked at £ to $ conversions for a few models and it seems we are paying $10-$15 extra per box in the US and that is AFTER the exchange rate. Not to mention there are several options that are out of stock for the US that are available webstore only for UK. I understand there are additional costs for shipping and such but that seems a pretty steep markup.

I definitely see 3D printing as a threat to this market and another avenue would be things like tabletop simulator. Especially if the new normal is no in-store gaming.

oh noes you gone dun pressed the ozzy summoning button

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Doesn't gunpla have a market way bigger than GW's and also mostly restricted to one bracket (asian) with less being done outside. Which isn't to say that they don't supply other territories, but that their home-base is very strongly embedded in one region.

Plus do they run their own stores and setup and also produce in china/asian bracket?

All things that might give them not only vastly increased sales but also lower overall operating costs.




Part of the luxury cost of GW is paying to have products produced in the UK as opposed to China/India etc...

yeah, but as a consumer, i don't care about the back end stuff, what matters to me is 1: the quality and 2: the price.
Gunpla outmaches GW's quality by a very large margin while staying more affordable.

Thing is I think the back end is important to consider as a customer.
It's very very very easy to ignore it and in general most of us do ignore it a lot. However when you sit down and start hammering out numbers and comparisons and such then the back end has to come into consideration. Scale, location, size, support, features etc... How many of us praise GW for their customer service; how many are grateful for the GW stores staffed by eager staff who know their products and hobby decently well etc....

 Jack Flask wrote:
At the risk of being called a white knight I honestly think a lot of the complaints about price are unreasonable.

The scale GW is operating on nowadays versus in the past is completely different. They have literally hundreds of stores (at least 500), they've expanded their production capacity, they've increased Black Library's output ( compared to when I started in 4E, both in number of authors and frequency of releases), are expanding the breadth of their product line year over year, have a community engagement team, and are now even branching into doing visual media with Story Forge.

There is no other company that I can think of in the miniatures wargame space doing anything close to all of that, much less on the same scale.

If you expand to any miniatures then the closest you can get is probably Bandai with Gunpla. But Bandai is massively larger than GW, sells Gunpla as just a single facet of their media mix strategy, doesn't have to worry about all of the associated trappings of a miniatures game, or doing significant amounts of design work on new releases (yes I know the kit designs and variations like Super Deformed don't just materialize from thin air, but the actual suit designs and lore are largely just taken from the anime/manga/games).

So yeah, as a consumer would I like cheaper priced kits? Of course I would!
Am I willing to pay a higher price if it means that GW continues to operate Warhammer stores I can visit, constantly releases new products (while rarely discontinuing old ones), and continues to develop and expand into new forms of media for me to enjoy and share with my friends. Absolutely!

Economies of scale allow you to reduce prices, they don't require you to raise them.

They run those stores because they make money, not as a charity gesture. Same for the books. Nothing GW does loses money.

 harlokin wrote:
As a British citizen it actually matters a lot to me that GW manufactures here.

I think this is a key element to remember, and if GW is doing the various pro-UK things that I've heard, more power to them. I'm definitely willing to pay a bit more because of it, and I say that as an American.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
As a British citizen it actually matters a lot to me that GW manufactures here.

I think this is a key element to remember, and if GW is doing the various pro-UK things that I've heard, more power to them. I'm definitely willing to pay a bit more because of it, and I say that as an American.

 Overread wrote:

Part of the luxury cost of GW is paying to have products produced in the UK as opposed to China/India etc...

but they still make a lot of profit
it is not like that they are on the edge breaking even and therefore have those high prices to cover their high costs

and I don't think that producing in house with european level of payment is a disadvantage for GW but makes the whole process cheaper. They won't do that if there would not be a huge benefit

so there is room to to adjust prices, they don't need to be that high to cover their cost, changing them would only reduce the profit, but why should GW say no to more money as long as the costumers is willing to pay

I'm not sure how things are at the minute with the new factory (is it online yet?) and COVID precautions, but before all of that I'm under the impression that their factory was struggling to keep up with demand. You'd have a hard time arguing to their shareholders that their prices are too high when they're selling everything they make and actively setting up a new factory so they can make stock faster.

I suppose that illustrates that as much as we collectively like to complain about their prices, there's probably not many of us who actually stop buying because of it. I know I'm guilty - I grumble every time prices go up or a new kit comes out with a higher than expected price, but it hasn't stopped me buying GW. Not as much as I might have done if the prices were lower, perhaps, but I'm still buying. And if GW are getting the same amount of money out of me either way, then I'm sure they prefer the version with higher prices where they give me less product for that money.

When these sorts of discussions come up, I always find it interesting to study their financial reports - see 2018-2019 for example. The report breaks down the sales and operating profit between their three main sales avenues of trade, stores and online. Interestingly, the 2019 figures break down as 47% trade, 34% retail and 19% GW direct online. So as much as we like to say that their high street stores are an outmoded model, the figures say that physical high street sales are not far off double their direct online sales - which I find rather surprising, I'd have thought online would have overtaken GW stores long ago.

Comparing sales and operating profit, the most profitable branch is online - in actual rates, that's sales of £47.3M with a profit of £29.2M - a whopping ~62% profit. But that's also their smallest sales avenue.

The next highest profit margin is trade (i.e. sales to FLGS). I don't know what their trade sale prices are, but it's reasonable to assume that they're in the region of 50-70% of rrp, and they obviously want to make a profit on that. £121.5M sales, 43.7M profit - a very nice ~36% profit margin, and that's nearly half of their overall sales at that profit margin.

And finally, their retail stores, at £87.8M sales, £10.4M profit, a ~12% profit margin. Which I expect a lot of businesses with more competition would consider to be a good, healthy profit margin for their entire operation. For GW, it's their least productive branch.

My reading of the figures is that they're setting their prices so that their retail sales deliver an acceptable profit margin. Retail is still a significant part of their business model as a gateway to try to bring in new hobbyists, and it's a large enough chunk of their overall figures that they want to make a profit on it. Because their costs are lower for trade sales and especially for direct online, those branches deliver stellar profit levels, which means the company's overall profit margin is excellent. If they had tougher competition they could certainly afford to reduce prices, even if it meant operating their high street stores as a loss leader, but they have absolutely no incentive to do so when their financial performance is as excellent as it is.

I think GW has managed to buck the trend of store vs online because many people still buy direct through GW either at a store or online; where GW keeps the price the same.

Furthermore because a store isn't just a retail outlet; its also the place where you might well game or learn how to paint from the staff etc... Heck many even have hobby stations in them too.

So basically the store is a social hub and hobby hub not just a retail outlet. That coupled to the same prices in store and online means that its much much easier to get tempted into spending money in the store before we've even got to things like customers being loyal to a store to help it survive because its where they also game.

Most other retail product lines the store is selling the same product, but not actually giving you much else save sales advise. So as a result many will often buy online for home delivery rather than head to the shops for a higher price.

Heck GW stores even let you order direct in store from the computer so if its not in the store you can still get it ordered in yourself.




In short GW has made it work by having a unique business model that isn't actually geared toward devaluing their highstreet stores; and by making the store a hobby and social area not just a retail one.

Shinji wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNzSOyYBaH4
Games Workshop Price INCREASE Scam Explained (June 2020)

Found this.

So that is why those boxes are $55... because new sets are coming out at $60, that makes sense now.

Yeah scam is to harsh a word for that. They are not doing hiding anything or using any special tricks to manipulate consumers there outside of what you can see in other products.
It's just a pretty aggressive pricing policy.

It's more of a question if you find enough value in the product to justify the price point.

Agreed! Not a scam, still dirty a pricing policy, but aren't marketing strategies manipulate consumers in a way.

Speaking of value, $11 per DE Incubi is an absolutely unreasonable value.
$80-$95 for a (start collection) box on the other hand quite reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunno wrote:
It wont just the the $55 for the box of dudes. Sadly many games companies are really expensive these days.

It’s the money you will also need to spend on:

Ever changing Codex’s and/or a new monthly App subscription
Constant new books that add to rules
Objectives Cards
Other faff that GW puts out.
etc etc.

And
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=VU0rc0EOOys&feature=emb_title



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Honestly GW's inflated prices in the UK aren't as bad as some other hobbies - I've seen camera year go up by insane amounts as a result of market slowing, inflation, recessions, china messing around with raw material imports etc...

In the end we all hate paying more, we all dislike it. But if you want to remain part of the hobby then that's the cost you have to justify to yourself to keep involved. One big bonus is that whilst GW releases new models and updates old ones, many of the armies are still running around with models where generation 1 models are still valid.

My tyranids still have gaunts, zoanthropes, warriors, rippers - all things that were around in generation 1 and most of those I stated can still be used without any issue today. Sure things like warriors have more weapon options now and things like Hive Tyrants and Carnifex have become far larger than in the past. But in general a lot of the models have retained a valid place in the army. Heck look at eldar - one of the regular requests is for plastic aspect warriors and yet when GW redid the banshee they are still of the same size and style as the first generation ones. If you've still got first gen you don't "have" to get the new ones.


So on many ways one big bonus is that GW's models do retain quite a decent long term value.

Oh there are many bonuses for GW, for example no one has came close to the design and quality of the sculpts, and of the molds to anything that GW puts out.
You are right, I cant justify paying $11 per model.

So this is not Pay to Win game like MMORPG or airsoft, this is Pay to Participate?

 Mothsniper wrote:


So this is not Pay to Win game like MMORPG or airsoft, this is Pay to Participate?

Yes, like many hobbies, there is a financial outlay required to participate.

The Newman wrote:
Slightly different take here:

GW is behaving exactly the way any company big enough to have shareholders behaves when some disruptive technology is on their radar. You don't have to be particularly tech-savy to know that 3d printing is right on the edge of being mature enough to invalidate GW's entire business model. They just invested in that big new factory (relatively speaking), and now they're trying to squeeze every penny they can out of that investment before the timer runs out. None of us like it, but expecting anything else is silly.

We even have a pretty good idea of what the aftermath looks like, we've seen stuff like this happen before. Compare the price of a CD right before file-sharing took off to the price of a CD today. GW is the RIAA, Thingiverse is Limewire, the end result will be a box of Intercessors costing $15-$20 like it should be now based on production costs, and there will be some ugly lawsuits between here and there.

Interesting point.
I agree that they are not doing anything different from other companies.
However I do not think 3D printing at home is as comparable to CD vs usb drives or file-sharing.

Because if you had to clean off spruces and sand and smooth printed model at home not a problem,
but if you need to do that for 80 models, you could go reason to go and buy overpriced kits.

3D printing is new tech, but not as scary to GW, now what is really scary to GW is is computer games.
Shiiiiiiiee man, Warhammer Mecanicus 40k on steam was so good, made me want to buy a stater box of Skitari, until I saw the price, and remembered how long it takes to de sprue, clean, prime, paint, varnish, detail, base.
That I just que in next deep dive at DeepRock Galactic and enjoy my break.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 harlokin wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:


So this is not Pay to Win game like MMORPG or airsoft, this is Pay to Participate?

Yes, like many hobbies, there is a financial outlay required to participate.

Yes, I was not talking about hobbies... I was talking about games
tamiya models is a hobby, that costs money, but it is not a game.

and its not pay to win as nearly all factions good and bad units cost mostly the same, admittedly its a pain when that can flip-flop on whim but theres alway nu-marines whose version is better and even more betterer

 Mothsniper wrote:

Speaking of value, $11 per DE Incubi is an absolutely unreasonable value.
$80-$95 for a (start collection) box on the other hand quite reasonable.

which is were the marketing strategy was successful, as with other games, people would never say that 80$ to start the game is reasonable, a starter set that costs 30$ has not enough models to play the full game would be called scam and bad value
for GW, paying 80 for a box and you need at least 2 of them to play the full game is reasonable

 Mothsniper wrote:

So this is not Pay to Win game like MMORPG or airsoft, this is Pay to Participate?

you pay to be part of an exclusive community with an exclusive hobby, (it was never pay to win but pay to play)

thing would be, if people would have those high standards regarding GW rules as they have with the models and/or would be as forgiven torwards model quality from other companies as they are to GW rules, the market would be less exclusive and GW would have some problems to get people playing their games
(yet, people say that they don't care about the quality of the game as long as the models look good is modern trend, also with computer games and movies, and not a good one)

 harlokin wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:


So this is not Pay to Win game like MMORPG or airsoft, this is Pay to Participate?

Yes, like many hobbies, there is a financial outlay required to participate.

Is everyone running primaris only due to estetic reasons?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nekooni wrote:
The actual cost of moving mail around should DECREASE per item with increased volume, though.

No? You can't just slap more letters into a van and expect the price/letter to go down. Eventually you'll need a second van, which doubles the cost. You need more infrastructure and more staff to meet with rising demand, plus privatisation means you need to may middle and upper management more.

Do not forget the need to insure everything as well, speaking of...

How much of model companies prices have to do with insurance costs, works comp and such?

Shinji wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:


So this is not Pay to Win game like MMORPG or airsoft, this is Pay to Participate?

Yes, like many hobbies, there is a financial outlay required to participate.

Is everyone running primaris only due to estetic reasons?

I don't know, ask someone who plays them.

I was responsding to the shock/horror that a hobby might cost you money.

 Jack Flask wrote:
At the risk of being called a white knight I honestly think a lot of the complaints about price are unreasonable.

The scale GW is operating on nowadays versus in the past is completely different. They have literally hundreds of stores (at least 500), they've expanded their production capacity, they've increased Black Library's output ( compared to when I started in 4E, both in number of authors and frequency of releases), are expanding the breadth of their product line year over year, have a community engagement team, and are now even branching into doing visual media with Story Forge.

There is no other company that I can think of in the miniatures wargame space doing anything close to all of that, much less on the same scale.

If you expand to any miniatures then the closest you can get is probably Bandai with Gunpla. But Bandai is massively larger than GW, sells Gunpla as just a single facet of their media mix strategy, doesn't have to worry about all of the associated trappings of a miniatures game, or doing significant amounts of design work on new releases (yes I know the kit designs and variations like Super Deformed don't just materialize from thin air, but the actual suit designs and lore are largely just taken from the anime/manga/games).

So yeah, as a consumer would I like cheaper priced kits? Of course I would!
Am I willing to pay a higher price if it means that GW continues to operate Warhammer stores I can visit, constantly releases new products (while rarely discontinuing old ones), and continues to develop and expand into new forms of media for me to enjoy and share with my friends. Absolutely!

To avoid misunderstanding:
That IS the discussion, GW is operating on nowadays versus in the past is completely different, that is true and awesome, does that mean GW wont begin to operate like they did in the past? No
When we talk about price increase it brings up the aspects from how they operated in the past, thus the discussion.

I never said that price increase is un justified, I said it is un reasonable, because I go to one of 500 new stores look around and walk out, and hope that at least my friends could afford new developed forms of media.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah. One has to recognise that GW pays UK salaries to UK citizens (Or well, European ones) with European job conditions and pays taxes in UK.


The crime would be if they produced chinese kits with chinese factory workers (I know their print material and some scenery or most of it is from china, thats why I don't buy those kits) and still had those prices, like Apple or most electronic companies.


That doesnt mean GW could shurely not lower but not increase prices as aggresively. I have only bought from GW direct like 3 times in my life. The collection of armies I have would not be possible buying from GW with GW prices: Ebay, second hand, people leaving the hobby, and many buys at stores both from spain and UK with 15-20% discount are the things that allowed me to actually be part of this hobby with armies that I can use.

I did not know that it is Made in UK.
Checked one of me boxes, and yep, made in UK, and that is friking awesome.
Now price increase is a bit more reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 harlokin wrote:

Shinji wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:


So this is not Pay to Win game like MMORPG or airsoft, this is Pay to Participate?

Yes, like many hobbies, there is a financial outlay required to participate.

Is everyone running primaris only due to estetic reasons?

I don't know, ask someone who plays them.

I was responsding to the shock/horror that a hobby might cost you money.

... what are you talking about? am I this bad at communicating?
When I said (So this is not Pay to Win game ) we talked about participating in playing the GAME

 Mothsniper wrote:
GW is operating on nowadays versus in the past is completely different, that is true and awesome, does that mean GW wont begin to operate like they did in the past? No
When we talk about price increase it brings up the aspects from how they operated in the past, thus the discussion.

yet they don't operate differently, not at all
some thing they do now are direct results of failures in the past, like don't take too much afford in translations as those cost them too much if they got the numbers wrong (like having English Box Sets sold out while French are still on stock means they need to order new English Boxes, and the printed cardboardbox costs more than the models inside)

what they changed is their marketing and interaction with the community, but the rest is till the same

 harlokin wrote:

Shinji wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:


So this is not Pay to Win game like MMORPG or airsoft, this is Pay to Participate?

Yes, like many hobbies, there is a financial outlay required to participate.

Is everyone running primaris only due to estetic reasons?

I don't know, ask someone who plays them.

I was responsding to the shock/horror that a hobby might cost you money.

Understood. It's about when they came out I decided to get repurpose my GW stuff for other things.
I figured they were going to planed obsolete the older ranges at some point and I figured I'd get a head start. I've never bothered to check back really.

 Mothsniper wrote:
Stopped by local store.
checked out some new boxes. and was a bit stunned for a heartbeat.

5 Incubi $55 bucks?! that is $11 per model, are you kidding me. I can eat out for a week.

Repentia squad $55 bucks, that is quite an investment, but kinda reasonable, but kinda not.
Retributor Squad, $55 bucks... I am done.

Is this normal, or I have not been at a local shop in a while?

Things have prices.

Dakka loves to make it sound as if GW is seeing 9 dollars in pure profit from each of those 11 dollar miniatures, but this is not the case.

Building an new factory, raising salaries for their workforce, paying UK taxes, hiring new and very talented sculptors, writers, community team members, artists, graphic designers, web and IT services. It all costs money, boat loads of money.

My friend is an arm-chair photographer, and she routinely drops 1-2 K on new cameras and lenses to test out the latest stuff. Software for that hobby is incredibly expensive, running hundreds if not thousands of dollars. I've another friend who is into motorbikes, drops hundreds of dollars per month on parts, labor and other things.

Hobbies aren't cheap. The best thing is to decide if you can live with the price of your chosen hobby. On 40K front, we now have Killteam (less than 100$ buy in) and Combat Patrol games (probably a 200$ buy in). So there are many levels of cost and availability.

 kodos wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:

Speaking of value, $11 per DE Incubi is an absolutely unreasonable value.
$80-$95 for a (start collection) box on the other hand quite reasonable.

which is were the marketing strategy was successful, as with other games, people would never say that 80$ to start the game is reasonable, a starter set that costs 30$ has not enough models to play the full game would be called scam and bad value
for GW, paying 80 for a box and you need at least 2 of them to play the full game is reasonable

 Mothsniper wrote:

So this is not Pay to Win game like MMORPG or airsoft, this is Pay to Participate?

you pay to be part of an exclusive community with an exclusive hobby, (it was never pay to win but pay to play)

Yes!! I said it is NOT Pay to win game like.... nm
Ok! you pay to be part of exclusive community, therefor I can't afford to be part of exclusive community. Enjoy your excusivness lolz. I'll go back painting me dust tactics then



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:
Stopped by local store.
checked out some new boxes. and was a bit stunned for a heartbeat.

5 Incubi $55 bucks?! that is $11 per model, are you kidding me. I can eat out for a week.

Repentia squad $55 bucks, that is quite an investment, but kinda reasonable, but kinda not.
Retributor Squad, $55 bucks... I am done.

Is this normal, or I have not been at a local shop in a while?

Things have prices.

Dakka loves to make it sound as if GW is seeing 9 dollars in pure profit from each of those 11 dollar miniatures, but this is not the case.

Building an new factory, raising salaries for their workforce, paying UK taxes, hiring new and very talented sculptors, writers, community team members, artists, graphic designers, web and IT services. It all costs money, boat loads of money.

My friend is an arm-chair photographer, and she routinely drops 1-2 K on new cameras and lenses to test out the latest stuff. Software for that hobby is incredibly expensive, running hundreds if not thousands of dollars. I've another friend who is into motorbikes, drops hundreds of dollars per month on parts, labor and other things.

Hobbies aren't cheap. The best thing is to decide if you can live with the price of your chosen hobby. On 40K front, we now have Killteam (less than 100$ buy in) and Combat Patrol games (probably a 200$ buy in). So there are many levels of cost and availability.

Exactly, so I guess I just wanted to buy something new to support the local, and realized I cant afford to.

Covid has probably been good for GW itself, their profit margin on sales from the online store is VASTLY higher than the profit margin from selling to stores. A lot of those sales migrated to GW's website instead, with the result being that they suddenly started making 2-3x the profit they would have made if those boxes had been sold to stores and then to a consumer.

And then you figure in all the people who are stuck at home instead of being out doing something, some of whom will naturally take the money they would have spent on other things and redirect it towards plastic miniatures instead.

 Mothsniper wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:

Speaking of value, $11 per DE Incubi is an absolutely unreasonable value.
$80-$95 for a (start collection) box on the other hand quite reasonable.

which is were the marketing strategy was successful, as with other games, people would never say that 80$ to start the game is reasonable, a starter set that costs 30$ has not enough models to play the full game would be called scam and bad value
for GW, paying 80 for a box and you need at least 2 of them to play the full game is reasonable

 Mothsniper wrote:

So this is not Pay to Win game like MMORPG or airsoft, this is Pay to Participate?

you pay to be part of an exclusive community with an exclusive hobby, (it was never pay to win but pay to play)

Yes!! I said it is NOT Pay to win game like.... nm
Ok! you pay to be part of exclusive community, therefor I can't afford to be part of exclusive community. Enjoy your excusivness lolz. I'll go back painting me dust tactics then



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:
Stopped by local store.
checked out some new boxes. and was a bit stunned for a heartbeat.

5 Incubi $55 bucks?! that is $11 per model, are you kidding me. I can eat out for a week.

Repentia squad $55 bucks, that is quite an investment, but kinda reasonable, but kinda not.
Retributor Squad, $55 bucks... I am done.

Is this normal, or I have not been at a local shop in a while?

Things have prices.

Dakka loves to make it sound as if GW is seeing 9 dollars in pure profit from each of those 11 dollar miniatures, but this is not the case.

Building an new factory, raising salaries for their workforce, paying UK taxes, hiring new and very talented sculptors, writers, community team members, artists, graphic designers, web and IT services. It all costs money, boat loads of money.

My friend is an arm-chair photographer, and she routinely drops 1-2 K on new cameras and lenses to test out the latest stuff. Software for that hobby is incredibly expensive, running hundreds if not thousands of dollars. I've another friend who is into motorbikes, drops hundreds of dollars per month on parts, labor and other things.

Hobbies aren't cheap. The best thing is to decide if you can live with the price of your chosen hobby. On 40K front, we now have Killteam (less than 100$ buy in) and Combat Patrol games (probably a 200$ buy in). So there are many levels of cost and availability.

Exactly, so I guess I just wanted to buy something new to support the local, and realized I cant afford to.

I get it. When I started the hobby 6 years ago, I was still in college and I lived on around 70 USD a week. My first army was financed because I had some old Magic Cards that had enough value in resale to get me nearly 200$ store credit. I also had friends who were much more well off than I was and they often would give me hand me downs or even gifts of a specific kit I'd been trying to get for a while. That's why I try to pay it forward and occasionally buy models for others i know today, now that I'm a graduate with a nice paying job.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Covid has probably been good for GW itself, their profit margin on sales from the online store is VASTLY higher than the profit margin from selling to stores. A lot of those sales migrated to GW's website instead, with the result being that they suddenly started making 2-3x the profit they would have made if those boxes had been sold to stores and then to a consumer.

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding your point, but that would only be true if their bricks and mortar overheads went away during the lockdown, which they did not. GW still had to pay business rates, rent, utilities, and their employees wages (all monies recieved from HMG have been repaid).

 Mothsniper wrote:

Yes!! I said it is NOT Pay to win game like.... nm

there is a difference between pay 2 play like the MMORPG or pay to play like GW.
none of them are pay2win,

unlike WoW were as soon as you stop paying you cannot play at all, you don't need to keep paying GW to play
but GW have their marketing that keeps you there were WoW need to deliever content wort playing and not just shiny new graphics

I suppose it depends on the region. Around here, there's two GW stores for a 5 million urban area, and neither are conveniently located for most people. Those stores probably account for like 5% of sales in the area tops, and likely more like 1%.

My impression is GW in the UK derives a massively higher percentage of its sale from GW-branded stores than anywhere else. I can totally see it being the case that its UK profits have been hit harder than profits in other areas as a result.

For all the love GW suppose to have for stores they act realy bad towords them. They prioritise their online store over them. And I guess it isn't that much problem in UK with GW store in every city, but it is different when you country has one GW store or non.

 kodos wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:

Yes!! I said it is NOT Pay to win game like.... nm

there is a difference between pay 2 play like the MMORPG or pay to play like GW.
none of them are pay2win,

unlike WoW were as soon as you stop paying you cannot play at all, you don't need to keep paying GW to play
but GW have their marketing that keeps you there were WoW need to deliever content wort playing and not just shiny new graphics

MMORPG are not pay to win? Oh boy...
Think its wise to end the discussion right here.

Thank you lads for input. IN CONCLUSION!
So all in all, GW is a UK based company that does not outsource the development and production, and using some would say "standard" marketing tricks to maximize profits, as a good capitalist company should.
And that i need to stop being poor then I will have nothing to b$%tch about.

For all the love GW suppose to have for stores they act realy bad towords them. They prioritise their online store over them. And I guess it isn't that much problem in UK with GW store in every city, but it is different when you country has one GW store or non.

Yeah, there's a weirdly antagonistic relationship there. They put unreal pressure for numbers on the store managers, but then set up the stores so that they really (in the ones I've been to in the US at least) seem to only cater to very new players. Need a start collecting box for your first army? Right this way sir! 15 year veteran looking to build out your list? Let me introduce you to our web store ...

I've actually tried a bunch of times to give the local GW store a sale, but everything I want is online only, so I either end up getting it online, or going to the independent LGS which, ironically has a better selection of "Warhammer" than the actual local "Warhammer Store" ...

It feels like the idea from corporate is - Set the stores up to bring people into the hobby and then ween them off the "physical store" and onto the web store once they've matured in the hobby. Which is fine in a vacuum but kind of falls down if the idea is that you're trying to build up a community to play the games.

It may be different in the UK, but that's been my experience in the US too. Independent stores are usually the real hobby hubs of the area; the GW store, if it exists at all, is more like the showrooms you sometimes see for stuff like online cosmetics companies. It's there to get people into the hobby, but its selection is usually poor, and it rarely has much of a local community.

They're also in a weird place for selling stuff because they can't compete on price with the 15% discount independents can offer, but they can't compete on selection with the online store either. So expecting people to actually buy many products there once they get into the hobby seems pretty odd.

 Mothsniper wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:

Yes!! I said it is NOT Pay to win game like.... nm

there is a difference between pay 2 play like the MMORPG or pay to play like GW.
none of them are pay2win,

unlike WoW were as soon as you stop paying you cannot play at all, you don't need to keep paying GW to play
but GW have their marketing that keeps you there were WoW need to deliever content wort playing and not just shiny new graphics

MMORPG are not pay to win? Oh boy...
Think its wise to end the discussion right here.

Thank you lads for input. IN CONCLUSION!
So all in all, GW is a UK based company that does not outsource the development and production, and using some would say "standard" marketing tricks to maximize profits, as a good capitalist company should.
And that i need to stop being poor then I will have nothing to b$%tch about.

First of all you live in ‘Muricuh so yeah... in the words of Todd Wilemon, just “stop being poor” XD literally how most people that have never been poor in their life think. I feel for you though because the books alone add 100$ just to play the game each year, and being newly married, it’s really hard to set money aside for a hobby like that. I’m not even poor.

But the problem doesn't always seem to be the relative cost of stuff made by GW, although sometimes they do boch it with something like the dual eldar box, but the cost to quality of the product they make. No one wants to pay more for stuff, but it is way worse to think you over paid for a foulty product, or be informed that the engine for the car you just bought is sold separatly.

Now I know only 8th ed, but no one is going to tell me that spliting some codex, just so they can sell additional books at full price is a good thing to do. Or making patch releases that fix the game they botched a paid update. not even mobile games do stuff like that.

Ah yes “I botched the product so pay me more to fix that flaw and make several more I can charge more money to fix down the line.”

yukishiro1 wrote:
It may be different in the UK, but that's been my experience in the US too. Independent stores are usually the real hobby hubs of the area; the GW store, if it exists at all, is more like the showrooms you sometimes see for stuff like online cosmetics companies. It's there to get people into the hobby, but its selection is usually poor, and it rarely has much of a local community.

They're also in a weird place for selling stuff because they can't compete on price with the 15% discount independents can offer, but they can't compete on selection with the online store either. So expecting people to actually buy many products there once they get into the hobby seems pretty odd.

Well it makes sense if they're only using their storefronts as a gateway to the funnel. The starter items will have a steady rate of sales as almost every beginner will buy one or a couple at some point. And that stream should be fairly easy to predict.
Overall low cost and low complexity to manage.

While the rest of the catalog that has a higher chance of having slow moving items is retailed by a third party that takes some of the profit but also takes on the risk of having to stock it for a longer period if it's a dud.
Besides having a higher margin on their online sales the benefit of sales there is also that it can be a lot leaner than the storefronts.

If their production is running at full tilt at all times I can imagine that they need to expend a lot of effort into predicting demand cutting and limiting the physical retail locations to a subset of the catalog would simplify this.

It doesn't matter anymore. A few will leave as they are priced out, the whales will stay to feed the company, and their reward is price hikes to cover the loss of those priced out.

 Just Tony wrote:
It doesn't matter anymore. A few will leave as they are priced out, the whales will stay to feed the company, and their reward is price hikes to cover the loss of those priced out.

aye, and unlike video games you can't implement bots into 40k to cover the loss of players.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
It doesn't matter anymore. A few will leave as they are priced out, the whales will stay to feed the company, and their reward is price hikes to cover the loss of those priced out.

aye, and unlike video games you can't implement bots into 40k to cover the loss of players.

The same people willing to pay $100 for 20 Hammerers will carry the company no matter how much they overcharge. They won't get a game in, but at least GW gets to stay in business.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It may be different in the UK, but that's been my experience in the US too. Independent stores are usually the real hobby hubs of the area; the GW store, if it exists at all, is more like the showrooms you sometimes see for stuff like online cosmetics companies. It's there to get people into the hobby, but its selection is usually poor, and it rarely has much of a local community.

They're also in a weird place for selling stuff because they can't compete on price with the 15% discount independents can offer, but they can't compete on selection with the online store either. So expecting people to actually buy many products there once they get into the hobby seems pretty odd.

thats pretty much how it is in my corner of the Shire but the indie is an hour or so away by car so folks just tend to use the local GW I rarely do as my tolerance for people even pre-Event is poor and the opening hours dont align with when I go mundane shopping

 Just Tony wrote:
It doesn't matter anymore. A few will leave as they are priced out, the whales will stay to feed the company, and their reward is price hikes to cover the loss of those priced out.

Oh, we're back to the GW is doomed to fail tag line? Excellent. Genuinely haven't seen that one in a while.

 Mothsniper wrote:
Stopped by local store.
checked out some new boxes. and was a bit stunned for a heartbeat.

5 Incubi $55 bucks?! that is $11 per model, are you kidding me. I can eat out for a week.

Repentia squad $55 bucks, that is quite an investment, but kinda reasonable, but kinda not.
Retributor Squad, $55 bucks... I am done.

Is this normal, or I have not been at a local shop in a while?

I just want to point out that at $11 USD a model, Retributors are $5USD/model cheaper than when they were in metal.

So for long term Sisters players they're actually more affordable for the most part.

 Mothsniper wrote:

MMORPG are not pay to win? Oh boy...
Think its wise to end the discussion right here.

I never played one that was, and I played a lot in the past years

 Mothsniper wrote:

So all in all, GW is a UK based company that does not outsource the development and production, and using some would say "standard" marketing tricks to maximize profits, as a good capitalist company should.
And that i need to stop being poor then I will have nothing to b$%tch about.

kind of
GW is much like Apple in this case

 kodos wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:

MMORPG are not pay to win? Oh boy...
Think its wise to end the discussion right here.

I never played one that was, and I played a lot in the past years

If the metric is F2P MMOs, several of them are very much P2W.

The prices are absolutely absurd. Always have been. That's our hobby. :/

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
The prices are absolutely absurd. Always have been. That's our hobby. :/

GW just can't produce the volume needed to hit their margins properly. It'd be nice if they could because we could see a real price break, but they haven't even been able to open the expanded plant yet, and they struggle to keep stuff in stock even when we don't have a pandemic on our hands.

While I applaud them for not just outsourcing all casting to China as that has proven to have countless issues in the past, I feel they need to greatly expand production so that they can make more on volume than they do per kit.

It'd also help the game see wider sales as more retailers could pick it up.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
The prices are absolutely absurd. Always have been. That's our hobby. :/

if your Hobby is Games Workshop, than yes

if your hobby is tabletop/wargaming, no the prices for our hobby are not absurd and never have been

 Platuan4th wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:

MMORPG are not pay to win? Oh boy...
Think its wise to end the discussion right here.

I never played one that was, and I played a lot in the past years

If the metric is F2P MMOs, several of them are very much P2W.

but not all and none of the Pay2Play MMO's are
most of them are just grindy as hell and get money by offering time saving stuff but this is not pay2win

In some ways it might be a good thing.

Hear me out - we saw that GW and the model market they support isn't good with movie-tie-ins like Lord of the Rings. Big market growth followed by rapid contraction isn't a good model for GW. Plus continual release and burn games aren't good for their established customer base either.

GW is safer with a steadier expansion which reflects gains in long term customers rather than a rapid expansion that might well have more casual/short term gamers that burn out quickly. Resulting in a need for continual new and product refreshing.

Rather than chasing the quick buck GW is better placed to chase the perhaps lower, but more stable buck.


Don't get me wrong, more gamers is a good thing, but I just feel that GW wants more long term customers rather than short term gluts. Furthermore its better for groups and clubs.
Certainly GW has been expanding their production to meet with rapid rising demand, by the standards of the wargaming hobby market rather than, say movie or other markets.

 Mothsniper wrote:

And that i need to stop being poor then I will have nothing to b$%tch about.

Honestly the best solution is to find a game/publisher that prices their kits differently or just embraces the bring whatever model you want philosophy.
There are trade offs but you likely wont look back. I know I don't except for a box here or there for the stuff I really like from GW.

Shinji wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:

And that i need to stop being poor then I will have nothing to b$%tch about.

Honestly the best solution is to find a game/publisher that prices their kits differently or just embraces the bring whatever model you want philosophy.
There are trade offs but you likely wont look back. I know I don't except for a box here or there for the stuff I really like from GW.

Or, if you are a local group of close friends go third party counts as?

Tamaya wasps 1:35 make for decent basi / griffon stand ins.

Anvil makes far superior customizable and equipable guardsmen options.

Mantic has some really nice bigger things for count as daemons potentially.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
It doesn't matter anymore. A few will leave as they are priced out, the whales will stay to feed the company, and their reward is price hikes to cover the loss of those priced out.

Oh, we're back to the GW is doomed to fail tag line? Excellent. Genuinely haven't seen that one in a while.

I goddamn challenge you to find anything in my post that alludes to GW's collapse. I stated that gamers who will support the company no matter HOW expensive their product gets will keep their lights on, but this will harm or even cripple customer influx.

Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:The prices are absolutely absurd. Always have been. That's our hobby. :/

Because nobody will do anything to counter it. Goldswords became the norm because buyers enabled it to do so.

I think gw could actually increase their profits by making their products more appealing/value for the customers. This could be achieved by putting more sprues in a box. Like the incubi one, double the minis but keep same price. The production cost is pretty much the same. Or it could achieved by lowering prices. I doubt they sell that good. Alot of boxes probably sit on shelves for years because they are so unappealing to buy.

Haven't bought much of anything in a years, and the last price hike was the final straw for me and won't be giving a single dollar more to GW.

When I first started playing, infantry boxes were $20 and contained all the extra bits you could want and then some. Now, they are twice as expensive or more and contain less models. Not to mention the ever inflating cost of new kits over old ones. I quit for many years mainly due to prices, and came back for 8th only to get fed up with the exact same thing. The gouging never ends and has only gotten worse with time. Now, on the rare occasions play with the models I already have and pirate the books.

Its funny you say that when literally 2000 points and the rule book is being sold for $200, and they are ok with everyone getting the box or more than 1.

Then if you look at some of the star collecting (more so for AOS) you can make viable armies out of a few of them.

Yes some of the units and models are way overcosted, but then you have many that are just a steal compare to any other time in 40k/aos/fantasy history. Then you have to look at inflation, Venoms when released in 2010 are at the price they should be for 2020, the same of many other units.

If you are going to point out the outliers $11 for 1 infantry model, you need to look at the other side of it too,

if you mean otherside?

See, GW is not the only model company, if people would leave the whole GW'sphere, then they'd find, that alot more are out there, that produce equal quality or higher (especially in the resin material department) to gw FOR vastly less money.

Not Online!!! wrote:
if you mean otherside?

See, GW is not the only model company, if people would leave the whole GW'sphere, then they'd find, that alot more are out there, that produce equal quality or higher (especially in the resin material department) to gw FOR vastly less money.

Not vastly for high quality, having order from 20 other places, GW plastics are for sure superior in quality for materials and things like negative space. They lack the idea of non-PC grim dark, example, Raging Heroes. While the models are awesome and has good detail, the quality really isn't the same, its equal to finecast for the same cost as GW, you are spending $10-30 per each infantry model. If you want cheap the Reaper is cheap, but the are low detail, smaller, and you can easily tell the artists are not as good.

The best for quality and cheapest i would say is zealot miniatures https://zealotminiatures.com/zealot-shop/#!/Drakenmir-the-Bonelord-Vampire/p/150080664/category=8326659 But their quality is still not as good. And they are actually rather small, 60mm for a Minotaur.

There are many others that are just way to costly for something that actually is better and more detailed than GW like scibor miniatures, amazing minis, but very costly, like $50 for 1 model the size of a Terminator, or a $35 Gor beastmen.

GW, like all companies, sells their product for what the market will bear. Their prices are not "too high" because they have no problem selling them at the current prices. People may grumble, seek discounts from MSRP, and purchase third hand, but they buy enough product that GW can't keep large amounts of their product line available. People buy enough to to make the investment in additional production capacity a worthwhile venture.

So, if you find GWs prices too high, it is you. You have company. You have lots of company. But GW has plenty of customers who feel they are worth the price of admission. The closet of shame wouldn't be a thing if people found GW too expensive to purchase. GW wouldn't be making record profits if their prices were too high.

Basically, GW is selling the miniature equivalent of luxury cars. Do you want a luxury car or will a basic sedan serve your purposes?

i think he was pointing to resin kits being the same or better quality for cheaper, which in most cases is true.

like i said previously there are a bunch of companies making fine miniatures in plastic
.warlord
.mantic
.micro art studios(well mostly terrain)
.DUST studios

then there are the resin makers like
.wargaming exclusive
.clear horizon miniatures(mostly 15MM)
.kromlek
.khurasan miniatures
.artel "W" miniatures

In epic scale
.vanguard
.onslaught
.trolls under the bridge


Unfortunately we lost dreamforge, his stuff was fantastic.

like redboi i refuse to give GW any more money, i have more than enough stuff to play 40K it happens when the collection is big enough.

Minis from Mantic or Kromlech (I have bought bits from both) are terribad in quality compared to what GW churns out these days. I am not saying Kromlech or Mantic don't deliver the price/quality they promise, they do, but it is an entirely league below GW minis. There are clear exceptions (finecast I am looking at you), but in general GW makes a superior product for superior prices. Also, they are becoming better with time. I own both metal sisters and the new SoB in plastic, and the improvement is clear, as is the quality of the sculpts. Is it expensive? Yes it is. It was never cheap to begin with if you take into account space, paints, brushes, etc. I can also paint with a 1€ brush or a 5€ one. Guess which one is clearly better.

I have to agree with you Kithail. I had a perfectly functional metal Sisters Army before the plastics came out. I’ve now replaced all the infantry except Celestine because the new sculpts are so sweet. I would have scoffed at the idea 4 months ago before I started painting the Army Box models.

 alextroy wrote:
GW, like all companies, sells their product for what the market will bear. Their prices are not "too high" because they have no problem selling them at the current prices. People may grumble, seek discounts from MSRP, and purchase third hand, but they buy enough product that GW can't keep large amounts of their product line available. People buy enough to to make the investment in additional production capacity a worthwhile venture.

So, if you find GWs prices too high, it is you. You have company. You have lots of company. But GW has plenty of customers who feel they are worth the price of admission. The closet of shame wouldn't be a thing if people found GW too expensive to purchase. GW wouldn't be making record profits if their prices were too high.

Basically, GW is selling the miniature equivalent of luxury cars. Do you want a luxury car or will a basic sedan serve your purposes?[

No, they are not. They sell Volvos. Outfits like Creature Caster sell "luxury cars," to continue with the silly comparison. Could you please point me to these companies that make miniatures I can play 40k with in sanctioned events?

GW products are poor value for the price, when you compare the $$ to the contents. Especially as game pieces. People purchase their products despite the prices and the atrocious rules, to get their "fix" of new stuff.

Blastaar wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
GW, like all companies, sells their product for what the market will bear. Their prices are not "too high" because they have no problem selling them at the current prices. People may grumble, seek discounts from MSRP, and purchase third hand, but they buy enough product that GW can't keep large amounts of their product line available. People buy enough to to make the investment in additional production capacity a worthwhile venture.

So, if you find GWs prices too high, it is you. You have company. You have lots of company. But GW has plenty of customers who feel they are worth the price of admission. The closet of shame wouldn't be a thing if people found GW too expensive to purchase. GW wouldn't be making record profits if their prices were too high.

Basically, GW is selling the miniature equivalent of luxury cars. Do you want a luxury car or will a basic sedan serve your purposes?[

No, they are not. They sell Volvos. Outfits like Creature Caster sell "luxury cars," to continue with the silly comparison. Could you please point me to these companies that make miniatures I can play 40k with in sanctioned events?

GW products are poor value for the price, when you compare the $$ to the contents. Especially as game pieces. People purchase their products despite the prices and the atrocious rules, to get their "fix" of new stuff.

I feel like this is an argument of cost vs value.

Cost is how much it costs to make the kit plus a given profit margin added on top of that (okay, it gets more complicated that that since you also try to divide that profit over the span of a given number of units you expect to sell, and other factors can kick in as well). We don't really know that profit margin, or if they cut into their margin from direct selling to have independent stockists carry their game, but since they refuse to cast models in cheaper countries (something I'm not going to fault them for considering the amount of IP theft pulled in China, plus ethical concerns) labor is always going to be a massive part of their cost. Since they dropped using metal for models shipping has dropped quite a bit which has meant they don't raise prices to maintain their profit margin as often as they used to.

Now we can argue on if the value of those models are as valuable as GW says they deserve to be paid of for their labor, but at the end of the day the prices are just being set through some math while the value is set by our emotions relative to that product.

The cost and value argument also gets complicated because of regional price variations.

GW products in the UK are closer in price to the competition than in some overseas territories where the price disparity is far greater.

After that we get sculpt quality and such which can be a huge minefield of opinions.


For example some true-scale models can have much superior sculpting quality in terms of the scale of parts ;but are more suited to a protected case on display than a gaming table; where oversized elements make parts a bit more practical to game with and also see at distance etc....

 Overread wrote:
The cost and value argument also gets complicated because of regional price variations.

GW products in the UK are closer in price to the competition than in some overseas territories where the price disparity is far greater.

After that we get sculpt quality and such which can be a huge minefield of opinions.


For example some true-scale models can have much superior sculpting quality in terms of the scale of parts ;but are more suited to a protected case on display than a gaming table; where oversized elements make parts a bit more practical to game with and also see at distance etc....

Yup. Import taxes, and trade deals can also mess with pricing above and beyond what GW intends as well.

And someone always mentions Gundam in these sorts of things, but Gundam relies on a larger sales volume than GW can attempt to produce for. I would love for them to have the product facilities available to allow costs to drop, but I'm also not going to hold my breath.

If Bandai got into this market, they'd run GW out of business easily.

 alextroy wrote:
GW, like all companies, sells their product for what the market will bear. Their prices are not "too high" because they have no problem selling them at the current prices.

Oh look, we have someone that took the first week of freshman's macroeconomics here without ever going in to any real detail on how an actual economy works.

The economic concept of a "free market" isn't a fact of reality, it's a platonic ideal to strive for. Ultimately the "free market" breaks down very easily, such as in the case of monopolistic market power, a lack of information (or the presence of misinformation), inherent human biases and stupidity, and a wide variety of other things such as costs being offloaded on to other people through externalities.

We don't KNOW what the actual balance of the free market is, and frankly neither does GW. They raise the prices because they can. A seller raising the price by direct fiat isn't some noble expression of economics like a sign handed down from Our Lord Money and Wealth, Owner Of All Things. It is nothing more than proof that GW wanted to raise their prices.

Whether or not GW's prices are good or bad is very, VERY subjective, and I know for a FACT that you don't have enough information to actually determine it objectively, and I'm pretty damn sure you haven't actually tried to to begin with.

Martel732 wrote:
If Bandai got into this market, they'd run GW out of business easily.

I don't know. They make toys, not games. Related, but not the same markets.

Personally I'd have nominated Hasbro, not Bandai, considering Hasbro is the only reason DnD isn't still wallowing in the foetid filth of 3.5th edition and decaying in to irrelevance.

 Melissia wrote:
Personally I'd have nominated Hasbro, not Bandai.

True, but people bring Bandai because of the Gundam model quality and parts counts.

Yeah, let's be fair to Bandai, they have a lot of income from outside of their miniature production that they can use to produce intricate miniatures in much larger scale. Bandai's hardly perfect, but they have the sheer weight of industry behind them.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If Bandai got into this market, they'd run GW out of business easily.

I don't know. They make toys, not games. Related, but not the same markets.

If any of the big toy firms wanted a slice of the pie they could run GW into the ground by simply saturating the market for a few years with top end ultra cheap products. That said their business model is totally different. They thrive on short term mass market products that are tied to movies and other franchises. It's a churn and burn of constant new products.

GW on the other hand has a lot more long lasting elements in their products. Whilst many active gamers to "upgrade" many of the core armies are still using models that have designs dating back decades. Plus the average wargamer does not like short term products with little in the way of long term support. In fact they hate it and the hint of it when AoS launched aided to its stifled sales.

 Melissia wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
GW, like all companies, sells their product for what the market will bear. Their prices are not "too high" because they have no problem selling them at the current prices.

Oh look, we have someone that took the first week of freshman's macroeconomics here without ever going in to any real detail on how an actual economy works.

The economic concept of a "free market" isn't a fact of reality, it's a platonic ideal to strive for. Ultimately the "free market" breaks down very easily, such as in the case of monopolistic market power, a lack of information (or the presence of misinformation), inherent human biases and stupidity, and a wide variety of other things such as costs being offloaded on to other people through externalities.

We don't KNOW what the actual balance of the free market is, and frankly neither does GW. They raise the prices because they can. A seller raising the price by direct fiat isn't some noble expression of economics like a sign handed down from Our Lord Money and Wealth, Owner Of All Things. It is nothing more than proof that GW wanted to raise their prices.

Whether or not GW's prices are good or bad is very, VERY subjective, and I know for a FACT that you don't have enough information to actually determine it objectively, and I'm pretty damn sure you haven't actually tried to to begin with.

So my statement is correct. GW charges the prices they charge because people keep buying them at that price. I didn't say, nor to I pretend, that GWs pricing is some platonic ideal of the free market. It's just good business. It doesn't matter if it cost GW $5 or $20 to make a kit they sell for $50. If we (collectively) are willing to pay $50 to to get it, then GW at the least hasn't priced the product too high.

It's not like GW has a monopoly on minatures that are suitable for playing Warhammer 40K or Age of Sigmar. They do, in many cases, have the best value when you combine quality, cost, and their officially sanctioned tournaments. Still, if that value carries through for you is entirely up to you.

 alextroy wrote:
So my statement is correct.

A completely unsupported opinion backed by zero research and data, or really for that matter by anything other than your own gut opinion doesn't make you factually correct, it just makes you have an opinion. The global market is not as mind-numbingly simple as your asinine argument makes it out to be.

 Melissia wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
So my statement is correct.

A completely unsupported opinion backed by zero research and data, or really for that matter by anything other than your own gut opinion doesn't make you factually correct, it just makes you have an opinion. The global market is not as mind-numbingly simple as your asinine argument makes it out to be.

What part of GW charging what customers are willing to pay is wrong? I'll wait for an answer.

I find some GW model prices reasonably tolerable given the quality of what I am getting verses price. Especially when breaking things down to dollars-per-miniature a whole bunch of kits are not bad at all (or dare I say it: a good deal). But other areas of GW's line make me cringe. The $30 plastic characters are particularly bad.

Buuut to go back to GW's defense, their products have steadily risen in quality over time and inflation is a thing. $40 in 2000 is equivalent to $60 today, factoring that in quite a few kits are similar or small increases in prices of their predecessors coupled with vast increases in quality.

 Overread wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If Bandai got into this market, they'd run GW out of business easily.

I don't know. They make toys, not games. Related, but not the same markets.

If any of the big toy firms wanted a slice of the pie they could run GW into the ground by simply saturating the market for a few years with top end ultra cheap products.

This doesn't make sense to me. Those companies would need to get an entire new design process going for miniatures, would either be outsourcing to China or spending a huge amount starting up plastic casting themselves, and would still have to be competing by offering alternatives to the GW line. Namely they would need to offer a mostly-complete line of not-space marines that were sufficiently appealing for people to buy those instead of GW. And even then they would run up against brand loyalty and playing catchup when GW releases a new model. If anything there is no way GW could easily be run into the ground by anyone other than themselves.

 Overread wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If Bandai got into this market, they'd run GW out of business easily.

I don't know. They make toys, not games. Related, but not the same markets.

If any of the big toy firms wanted a slice of the pie they could run GW into the ground by simply saturating the market for a few years with top end ultra cheap products. That said their business model is totally different. They thrive on short term mass market products that are tied to movies and other franchises. It's a churn and burn of constant new products.

GW on the other hand has a lot more long lasting elements in their products. Whilst many active gamers to "upgrade" many of the core armies are still using models that have designs dating back decades. Plus the average wargamer does not like short term products with little in the way of long term support. In fact they hate it and the hint of it when AoS launched aided to its stifled sales.

I disagree with this "GW only wants to churn and burn" claim. That's the sort of mindset that killed WHFB. The game needs more people coming in than are leaving, and the more people who are unhappy about the game as it prices out newcomers from coming into the game the faster the game dies. They tried that market plan under Kirby where they tried to market themselves as a premier model company that sold primarily to collectors. And it killed one of their games and had 40k hurting as well.

At one point that was definitely the mentality, but it's not the mentality they're using now.

Zion I'm specifically saying that churn and burn isn't GW's model - its the model of the big toy firms. I also specifically noted the same AoS example you mention, that wargamers as customers don't like the churn and burn model.

The big toy firms could flood the market with cheaper products, yes they would likely outsource to china and the like. The challenge for them would be if wargamers picked up the market change - as AoS shows there's every chance they wouldn't which might be one reason (of many) that GW has mostly been left alone being the big-name in its market without attracting interest from bigger toy firms.

 Overread wrote:
Zion I'm specifically saying that churn and burn isn't GW's model - its the model of the big toy firms. I also specifically noted the same AoS example you mention, that wargamers as customers don't like the churn and burn model.

The big toy firms could flood the market with cheaper products, yes they would likely outsource to china and the like. The challenge for them would be if wargamers picked up the market change - as AoS shows there's every chance they wouldn't which might be one reason (of many) that GW has mostly been left alone being the big-name in its market without attracting interest from bigger toy firms.

Sorry, I misunderstood who you were aiming the argument about churn and burn at.

 Melissia wrote:
Personally I'd have nominated Hasbro, not Bandai, considering Hasbro is the only reason DnD isn't still wallowing in the foetid filth of 3.5th edition and decaying in to irrelevance.

Of course as Hasbro has owned WotC since 1999, they're also the reason for D&D wallowing in 3.5 in the 1st place....

 Mothsniper wrote:
Stopped by local store.
checked out some new boxes. and was a bit stunned for a heartbeat.

It's not just you.

I have been thinking about starting orcs (the fantasy kind), so I popped in to see what Ironjaws go for. You know, maybe AoS might be fun after some time away playing Kings of War.

Oh hell no. After getting used to Mantic prices GW models are not so nice that I can justify that spend. I just need models to be orcs.

ccs wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Personally I'd have nominated Hasbro, not Bandai, considering Hasbro is the only reason DnD isn't still wallowing in the foetid filth of 3.5th edition and decaying in to irrelevance.

Of course as Hasbro has owned WotC since 1999, they're also the reason for D&D wallowing in 3.5 in the 1st place....

The difference is in 3.5th, they let WotC basically run themselves. When WotC ran themselves in to the ground (almost inevitably, really), they stepped in and forced WotC to make a game more suited for new players in 4th edition then encouraged them to take what they learned to make fifth edition. Has bro has a lot of flaws, and they sure as hell ain't perfect, but given the leeway WotC was given in 3.5th edition, the blame for that edition's worst parts pretty much belongs to WotC.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
It doesn't matter anymore. A few will leave as they are priced out, the whales will stay to feed the company, and their reward is price hikes to cover the loss of those priced out.

Oh, we're back to the GW is doomed to fail tag line? Excellent. Genuinely haven't seen that one in a while.

I think GW is doomed to be consumed by a larger megacorp. Maybe a disney. Or an amazon. I'm afraid this megacorp will have interest in the ip for generating digital entertainment, but give absolutely no feths about models and just delete that part of the company after half assedly trying to make it work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
GW, like all companies, sells their product for what the market will bear. Their prices are not "too high" because they have no problem selling them at the current prices. People may grumble, seek discounts from MSRP, and purchase third hand, but they buy enough product that GW can't keep large amounts of their product line available. People buy enough to to make the investment in additional production capacity a worthwhile venture.

So, if you find GWs prices too high, it is you. You have company. You have lots of company. But GW has plenty of customers who feel they are worth the price of admission. The closet of shame wouldn't be a thing if people found GW too expensive to purchase. GW wouldn't be making record profits if their prices were too high.

Basically, GW is selling the miniature equivalent of luxury cars. Do you want a luxury car or will a basic sedan serve your purposes?

This has never been true of markets ever. This is a simplistic view requiring the idea that markets are inviolate and perfect. They have never been such.

 Melissia wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Personally I'd have nominated Hasbro, not Bandai, considering Hasbro is the only reason DnD isn't still wallowing in the foetid filth of 3.5th edition and decaying in to irrelevance.

Of course as Hasbro has owned WotC since 1999, they're also the reason for D&D wallowing in 3.5 in the 1st place....

The difference is in 3.5th, they let WotC basically run themselves. When WotC ran themselves in to the ground (almost inevitably, really), they stepped in and forced WotC to make a game more suited for new players in 4th edition then encouraged them to take what they learned to make fifth edition. Has bro has a lot of flaws, and they sure as hell ain't perfect, but given the leeway WotC was given in 3.5th edition, the blame for that edition's worst parts pretty much belongs to WotC.

The blame for everything goes to Wizards. Hasbro doesn't give a dead hamster about D&D. They bought (and keep) Wizards for the M:TG money, and their financials reflect that. They talk about Magic as a serious premium brand that earns money on par with Monopoly and other traditional mainstays. On years they even bother to mention D&D in their annual reports (not often- including 4th edition's launch year), they treat it as a little side project that they let WotC run to keep the WotC management team happy. As a brand it gets lumped into the category of 'other games.'

As long as they don't lose money on it and don't do serious damage to any IP that could be turned over for real money, Hasbro honestly doesn't care what happens to WotC's little playpen. Various WotC team members (they have a high turnover) have made several attempts over the years to transform it into a real moneymaker (by Hasbro's definitions) but never manage it. The D&D team is down to maybe a dozen people and doodles out a couple books a year (if you include books from third party content creators like Critical Role and Penny Arcade)

 Overread wrote:
Zion I'm specifically saying that churn and burn isn't GW's model - its the model of the big toy firms. I also specifically noted the same AoS example you mention, that wargamers as customers don't like the churn and burn model.

The big toy firms could flood the market with cheaper products, yes they would likely outsource to china and the like. The challenge for them would be if wargamers picked up the market change - as AoS shows there's every chance they wouldn't which might be one reason (of many) that GW has mostly been left alone being the big-name in its market without attracting interest from bigger toy firms.

I still don't understand how that would work. Let's take for example Primaris models. How is anything Hasbro does going to kill GWs sales of new Primaris models?

 Overread wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If Bandai got into this market, they'd run GW out of business easily.

I don't know. They make toys, not games. Related, but not the same markets.

If any of the big toy firms wanted a slice of the pie they could run GW into the ground by simply saturating the market for a few years with top end ultra cheap products. That said their business model is totally different. They thrive on short term mass market products that are tied to movies and other franchises. It's a churn and burn of constant new products.

GW on the other hand has a lot more long lasting elements in their products. Whilst many active gamers to "upgrade" many of the core armies are still using models that have designs dating back decades. Plus the average wargamer does not like short term products with little in the way of long term support. In fact they hate it and the hint of it when AoS launched aided to its stifled sales.

Primaricrap strikes me as that churn and burn thing that people hate in the miniature business...

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I still don't understand how that would work. Let's take for example Primaris models. How is anything Hasbro does going to kill GWs sales of new Primaris models?

lets take this from a different point of view

the one big advantage of GW is to produce in house, so they have the full quality control and short reaction time to changes, were others have to wait for the next container ship from China with the possibility that those kits do not sell as well as planned (or sell to well and are out of stock until the next ship arrives), GW can react on demand and produce more from the stuff that sells without needing to wait
they also have the shorter development time, as they can test in house what is working and don't need to wait months for the first test sample to make adjustments and so on

lets compare it to Mantic, their Resin is way ahead of anything that GW made because for the same reason, the whole development and fabrication happens in house so they have full control on quality
their plastic on the other hand was comparable to GW ~4 years ago but as the development is done in China there is no room for improvement and Chinese factory won't going up in quality for the Mantic kits

the Enforcers were the better models compared to the old Marines but felt behind their new stuff, same as their tanks are better in design and quality compared to Rhinos or Eldar Falcons while costing have of it
Wargames Atlantic is in the same boat, their Guard like Infantry is better than anything GW has, but as soon as GW will bring new Guard models they will fall behind

yet the new stuff GW comes up with is years ahead (in that part of the industry) and the others are just lucky that GW is not updating the whole range at once
as long as there are old Guard, Marine, Eldar models around, other manufactorers will have superior models


Now lets look at the other parts of the industry
While GW is ahead for 32mm Plastic in the Wargaming part, their rules are a different story and comparing it to the scale models of all kind, the plastic is nothing special (also compared to those brands that make historical models that can be used for both, any vehicle from GW falls behind to what Rubicon makes for half the price)

And now there is Bundai or Hasbro, they also can do stuff in house, have full control over their quality and have access to larger markets

If Bundai would decide that they want to go big into Wargaming and comes up with a 1/144 (or 1/200) full scale game (including infantry, tanks etc.), GW would have troubles to compete with them, specially in the Asien market

If Primaris sell like crazy then all another big firm has to do is make Ultra Trooper Marines. Or any other name, the concept of a bulky heavily armoured warrior from space with a big gun is not something GW can stop anyone else making.

Bigger firms that are happy to use overseas factories for cheaper production can easily flood the market with a new wargame with similar design ethos; same scale and prices half as much or less.

They also have access to way more marketing potential - GW does a lot of marketing, but it relies heavily on stores and word of mouth to get people into their marketing system itself. Big toy brands can put up posters on every bus; tie it to a new film or animation series; advertise on the TV etc.... They can advertise way more than GW.

If they can out advertise and outprice GW then they can have a big chance to steal a good portion of the "new" customers. Meanwhile if their product is just as good and cheaper they'd likely start cutting their way into the current market as counts-as replacements.

Basically all they need is to do what Epic Game Stores have done - be aggressive in the early phase and perhaps run several loss leaders with a long term view that once they've "stolen" the market they keep it. Just like how GW does right now another bigger firm could push in.


Of course GW wouldn't die, but chances are they might see growth stagnate heavily and in the long term would see problems trying to grow their brand.


In the end we've seen this happening at the small scale, its just that garage casters and small startup firms can't generate vast capital at the start to get off to a flying start. Even with KS they can't afford mass marketing. They mostly chip away at the current market that GW built itself.



That said I think that projections show that its more proiftable for them to simply stick with their current market of toys rather than push into miniature wargames where the market is smaller and where it does likely require more of an initial big gamble to push in and take a serious slice of the pie.

 Overread wrote:
That said I think that projections show that its more proiftable for them to simply stick with their current market of toys rather than push into miniature wargames where the market is smaller and where it does likely require more of an initial big gamble to push in and take a serious slice of the pie.

I was wondering when someone would note that. Yes, the big boys could bury GW, but GW is too small for them to bother. The investment is almost certainly too high for the prize.

 alextroy wrote:

 Overread wrote:
That said I think that projections show that its more proiftable for them to simply stick with their current market of toys rather than push into miniature wargames where the market is smaller and where it does likely require more of an initial big gamble to push in and take a serious slice of the pie.

I was wondering when someone would note that. Yes, the big boys could bury GW, but GW is too small for them to bother. The investment is almost certainly too high for the prize.

GW has a market value of £2b. They are hardly "small". Niche maybe, but not small.

Also, are we forgetting that Hasbro IS in the Miniatures market with D&D?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Overread wrote:
That said I think that projections show that its more proiftable for them to simply stick with their current market of toys rather than push into miniature wargames where the market is smaller and where it does likely require more of an initial big gamble to push in and take a serious slice of the pie.

I was wondering when someone would note that. Yes, the big boys could bury GW, but GW is too small for them to bother. The investment is almost certainly too high for the prize.

GW has a market value of £2b. They are hardly "small". Niche maybe, but not small.

All things are relative.

GW is small compared to the entertainment megagiants.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Also, are we forgetting that Hasbro IS in the Miniatures market with D&D?

Yes and they are very good quality. because it is RPG related it is more of a direct competition with reaper miniatures. although reapers line is far more expansive in the size of their product line and universe settings.

If you were Hasbro/Bandai whatever, you'd buy GW. You wouldn't want an expensive war that potentially wipes out the value of the sector.
Because it might all go back to 2012 and being collectively worth three doughnuts.

Martel732 wrote:
If Bandai got into this market, they'd run GW out of business easily.

Were that the case, the model companies already producing far higher-quality kits at lower prices than GW's toylike vehicles would have driven GW out of business long ago.

But most people aren't buying just for the models. They're buying for the game, the community, and the IP. You don't go buy a Leman Russ because it's a great model kit; you buy a Leman Russ because it's a Leman Russ and the local shop won't let you play 40K with a Hasegawa King Tiger.

 catbarf wrote:

But most people aren't buying just for the models. They're buying for the game, the community, and the IP.

you know, a lot of people here have told me something different, they only buy because of the models, the game does not matter and the community is whatever the local club plays

and they don't play other games because of the models. they don't even want to try other games or rules unless they can use the cool models from GW

therefore, if another company comes up with cooler models than GW people will go for it

and they don't play other games because of the models. they don't even want to try other games or rules unless they can use the cool models from GW

That's kinda sad, since many of the other game systems out there are quite good, better written in fact than many from GW.

The thing i always hear is actually a resistance to buy more minis/start new armies for another system they have to learn. some players who even play other systems if you give them the minis to use will still go buy the GW stuff first since it is their main or only game and the easiest one to find a game for.

 catbarf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If Bandai got into this market, they'd run GW out of business easily.

Were that the case, the model companies already producing far higher-quality kits at lower prices than GW's toylike vehicles would have driven GW out of business long ago.

But most people aren't buying just for the models. They're buying for the game, the community, and the IP. You don't go buy a Leman Russ because it's a great model kit; you buy a Leman Russ because it's a Leman Russ and the local shop won't let you play 40K with a Hasegawa King Tiger.

Yup. The inertia GW has makes their market presence extremely difficult to shift. Hasbro could make high quality not-marines for less money and large numbers of customers would still buy GW, to say nothing of all the other armies. The claim that they could "easily" run GW into the ground is not backed up by the realities of the market, as the original proponents of the statement admitted above.

see my other, longer answer
this would depend on the market and the IP used

they can, just not in the US or Europe were the GW Store is the main thing to get the game going

Asia, GW would not have a chance if Hasbro or Bandai wanted to compete with them

Yeah, it isn't "the main thing to get the game going" in the US.

Not even a damn chance. You're actively looked down on if you play at a GW around where I live. You're seen as nothing but a "sheeple" in some instances, with people claiming you have more money than sense or that you're a "trust fund kid".

It's honestly kinda funny.

If I understand correctly, if you play at a GW store, people look down on you
but if you play a GW game somewhere else they do not?


yet I did not say that people need to play at the GW store, but their stores is what get their games going

GW won't be were they are now without their own stores dedicated to the GW hobby advertising the game to the crowed passing by

 aphyon wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Also, are we forgetting that Hasbro IS in the Miniatures market with D&D?

Yes and they are very good quality. because it is RPG related it is more of a direct competition with reaper miniatures. although reapers line is far more expansive in the size of their product line and universe settings.

Hasbro is in fact NOT in the D&D minis business. They currently license that out to WizKids. And to a smaller degree GaleForce Nine for the resin stuff.

 kodos wrote:
If I understand correctly, if you play at a GW store, people look down on you
but if you play a GW game somewhere else they do not?


yet I did not say that people need to play at the GW store, but their stores is what get their games going

GW won't be were they are now without their own stores dedicated to the GW hobby advertising the game to the crowed passing by

Except they don't, not here in the US. GW stores are the rarity while independents aren't...and people looooooooove to find ways to thumb their nose at GW whether valid or not while still giving them money via independents.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 kodos wrote:
If I understand correctly, if you play at a GW store, people look down on you
but if you play a GW game somewhere else they do not?


yet I did not say that people need to play at the GW store, but their stores is what get their games going

GW won't be were they are now without their own stores dedicated to the GW hobby advertising the game to the crowed passing by

Except they don't, not here in the US. GW stores are the rarity while independents aren't...and people looooooooove to find ways to thumb their nose at GW whether valid or not while still giving them money via independents.

Exactly. The nearest GW store is about 50 miles away from me (and counting traffic etc it's at least an hour & a half drive). Meanwhile? Within 15 miles & about as many minutes of drive time there's at least 6 independents (3 of whom I'd give $ to).

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Overread wrote:
That said I think that projections show that its more proiftable for them to simply stick with their current market of toys rather than push into miniature wargames where the market is smaller and where it does likely require more of an initial big gamble to push in and take a serious slice of the pie.

I was wondering when someone would note that. Yes, the big boys could bury GW, but GW is too small for them to bother. The investment is almost certainly too high for the prize.

GW has a market value of £2b. They are hardly "small". Niche maybe, but not small.

GW's market capitalization is the wrong figure to use.

GW had Fiscal Year 2019 net sales of £256.574 Million ($326.62 Million in today's dollars)
Hasbro had Fiscal Year 2019 net sales of $4,720.2 million
Bandai had Fiscal Year 2019 net sales of ¥732.3 billion ($6,852.83 Million in today's dollars)

While not apples strictly comparative numbers (I didn't adjust them for reporting date $ and then move them all to current $) this illustrates that both Hasbro and Bandai are an order of magnitude larger than GW. If they wanted to steal GW's market, I'm sure they could. I just doubt it would be worth the cost to gain between 5% to 10% sales (assuming they got all of GW's revenue).

It would make less sense to steal the market than it would to just buy them.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It would make less sense to steal the market than it would to just buy them.

You can't buy a company that doesn't want to be bought though. I'm no expert, but from what I've read over the years GW seems to have taken precautions to prevent hostile take-overs and has no intentions of selling either.

Yeah, but throw enough money around and things happen.

 catbarf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If Bandai got into this market, they'd run GW out of business easily.

Were that the case, the model companies already producing far higher-quality kits at lower prices than GW's toylike vehicles would have driven GW out of business long ago.

But most people aren't buying just for the models. They're buying for the game, the community, and the IP. You don't go buy a Leman Russ because it's a great model kit; you buy a Leman Russ because it's a Leman Russ and the local shop won't let you play 40K with a Hasegawa King Tiger.

Exactly my thoughts. I've used Scibor for some character models for my fantasy armies but that is a rare exception. Even that I stopped doing because the new dwarfs are way too big compared to GW. I had some older models from them that was pretty close to GW scale, now their dwarfs heroies are almost the size of Space Marines. You would never see me using a whole army from a different manufacturer, it's just not my things. I don't really care if others do though, I don't get too hung up on my opponents using "counts as" models.