I dont mean the army I mean the 30 year old iconic humble space marine. I mean I go on a lot of meme sites and such and 99% of all memes show old space marines. Space marine are the only thing people recognise of 40k and yet a couple of years ago gw just decided to completely kill off their model line and the ten thousand years of lore in favour of the primaris?? Why? Why didnt they just make new marine models but properly sized? Why did the primaris have to exist? Does anyone actually have an answer for this or are they just universally accepted as an ill thought out marketing and profit ploy to trick the masses. I mean they are awful? Their lore makes no sense? Theyve got the wrong helmets on and all the old cool characters now look like midgets? It's just abysmal.
Too big secondary market, too many companies making classic marines and parts for them. It makes sense from GW point of view. If they could they would make models the same way other companies make their product, with a build in self destruct mechanism.
It would even sound nice, as a PR move too. A enviroment friendly model that bio degrades after lets say 3-4 years.
Icegoat wrote: I dont mean the army I mean the 30 year old iconic humble space marine. I mean I go on a lot of meme sites and such and 99% of all memes show old space marines. Space marine are the only thing people recognise of 40k and yet a couple of years ago gw just decided to completely kill off their model line and the ten thousand years of lore in favour of the primaris?? Why? Why didnt they just make new marine models but properly sized? Why did the primaris have to exist? Does anyone actually have an answer for this or are they just universally accepted as an ill thought out marketing and profit ploy to trick the masses. I mean they are awful? Their lore makes no sense? Theyve got the wrong helmets on and all the old cool characters now look like midgets? It's just abysmal.
Removed - Rule #1 please
WAAAAH WE WANT NEW THINGS
-new things come out
WAAAAAAAAAH WE DIDN'T WANT THAT
Their lore makes sense, you just don't like it.
Their models are fine, you just don't like them.
People like them, you don't.
The good old Tactical Marine were the jack of all trades but master of none.
Primaris Marines are the shiny new kids on the block.
They open a new market for playing Space Marines.
I think they learned the wrong lessons from the Age of Sigmar launch. With Sigmar they released minis that replaced all the old armies and dropped support for all the old armies immediately, which pissed a lot of people off when they'd been told "yeah, you can totally use all your old models in our new game!" beforehand. With the Primaris they figured they can totally just replace all the old-Marines but from Sigmar they learned they can't drop support immediately, they have to keep pretending they're going to support the old stuff, so they're keeping all the old-Marines in the Codex but not releasing any new material for them until the Primaris have completely subsumed them in power creep, and then they can move all the old-Marines to Legends or 30k or whatever and nobody will notice.
Lets be honest. Mini marines always looks bad and realistically always played bad too. The army needed a new identity and instead of undersized and gimmicky they went for large and in charge. Never had as much fun with marines as I am having now.
The shot themselves in the foot when they made necrons. Then repeated the error with Custodes. There’s no room on the D6 to make marines better. And now the most popular collected armies have new stuff for people to buy. Before Primaris, I wasn’t buying much but books. Between boxed sets and years of collecting I have at least two of everything. And a lot of people wouldn’t buy upsized regular Marines, they’ll keep using the old ones would would have stayed legal. Making them Primaris with a new model and new stats etc means the old marine models can’t be used as new marine stat lines.
Rebuilding the same thing that they always had gave them no real way to change how the army fights. Since Primaris have launched, armies of marines are more Legion-style single purpose units rather than the more esoteric builds available to the firstborn.
Units like Intercessors have strayed a bit from that concept, sure. They now have expanded to allow a certain amount of Sergeant flexibility in wargear that helps them emulate certain firstborn units that like hiding a strong weapon within a unit of weaker soldiers.
Furthermore, almost every single new weapon added with Primaris is unique to them in the game, and at times unique to the unit itself. Nobody else outside Primaris is carrying around a bolt rifle, for example. They have their own special plasma, melta, and even high-end las. They rarely include weapons from the firstborn. It's also important to note that those firstborn weapons are widely available across the entire Imperial universe. A heavy bolter is the same weapon as those wielded by the Sisters of Battle and the Astra Militarum, for example.
So Primaris seem to me to be as if they decided two things. 1) They decided to change the way marines fight. Legion tactics and specialized units equipped for a single job. And 2) they would no longer be using universally available weapons. From a lore perspective, they are the angels of death - there's the argument that they should be carrying special tools unique to them that nobody else has access to. Primaris and their boatload of new weapon and unit rules achieve that. It also helps to allow more granular balance flexibility. For example, auto bolt rifles being buffed to 3 shots affected a grand total of 1 unit, and when GW has such trouble keeping the unintended consequences of change from spilling over onto everyone's lap, I think that's overall a better situation.
Icegoat wrote:I mean I go on a lot of meme sites and such and 99% of all memes show old space marines.
Look at when a lot of those memes where created. Look at what a lot of the art throughout the history of GW is of - classic Marines.
The majority of modern 40k memes I see are of the more modern stuff - Primaris, or using something like Astartes as a meme template.
Space marine are the only thing people recognise of 40k
Citation needed. One of the most iconic? Without doubt. But 40k's Orks and guardsmen are pretty iconic too. And, more importantly, most outsiders will recognise a Primaris Marine as another Space Marine, or at the very least, affiliated with 40k. They're not THAT different.
and yet a couple of years ago gw just decided to completely kill off their model line
I'm interested as to your definition of "killed the model line". The old sculpts still exist. They still have rules, modern, in-codex rules at that. You can very easily go out and buy a whole new army of Mark VII Marines.
So, what do you mean by "killed", exactly? Not renewed? Does that make the DE a dead army? Grey Knights? Eldar?
and the ten thousand years of lore in favour of the primaris??
You know the old lore is still around, right? You don't have to play games set beyond the Great Rift. Like, there's 10,000 years of history you can play with. Don't like the new stuff? Set your games in 9999999.M41. Nothing's been removed.
Why didnt they just make new marine models but properly sized?
Because they wanted to make Primaris? Can you imagine the uproar from you, if they'd resized Marines? We already have one thread from you ranting about "scale increases". Sounds like you wouldn't have liked that either.
Why did the primaris have to exist?
Why does anything have to exist?
Does anyone actually have an answer for this or are they just universally accepted as an ill thought out marketing and profit ploy to trick the masses.
I think Primaris are cool. That's all the answer I need.
I mean they are awful?
In your opinion. Which you're entitled to. Same as I'm entitled to mine.
Their lore makes no sense?
Have you read Primaris lore? And no, I don't mean the 1d4chan version, I mean the *actual* lore?
Theyve got the wrong helmets on
Sorry, "wrong helmets"? By that metric, all Mark VII Marines have the wrong helmet, as they're not wearing the ORIGINAL beakies.
Primaris helms are a callback to Mark IV plate. Hell, I've USED Mark IV helmets on some of my Primaris, and they barely look different.
and all the old cool characters now look like midgets?
If you don't take any Primaris, then the old characters don't look any smaller. Plus, there's nothing stopping people from converting and kitbashing their "cool old characters" to look in scale with the Primaris, if you really wanted to. The shoulder pads are the same size, the arms are scarcely much different, and the helmet sockets are the same.
It's just abysmal.
Aaaaaand breathe.
Was there anything constructive in this thread, or is this another rant/venting thread?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote:WAAAAH WE WANT NEW THINGS
-new things come out
WAAAAAAAAAH WE DIDN'T WANT THAT
Their lore makes sense, you just don't like it.
Their models are fine, you just don't like them.
People like them, you don't.
In conclusion: get over it.
Yeah, can't really argue with that.
There's nothing wrong with not liking things. That's only human. But just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean that it's inherently bad, or that other people can't enjoy it.
There's nothing wrong with not liking things. That's only human. But just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean that it's inherently bad, or that other people can't enjoy it.
Let people enjoy things.
That is how we people that were old socialists got convinced to join the party with new comming communists from Soviet Union. They were told to let it go too, and that some people like the new system too. Bad ideas are bad ideas, and just because some people like them, it does not make them acceptable or good. Otherwise we could okey more or less everything, because you can always find a group of humans that like something. Even the worse of the worse things.
There's nothing wrong with not liking things. That's only human. But just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean that it's inherently bad, or that other people can't enjoy it.
Let people enjoy things.
That is how we people that were old socialists got convinced to join the party with new comming communists from Soviet Union.
What on earth has this got to do with the discussion?
Bad ideas are bad ideas
Just to confirm - this is a discussion board about toy plastic soldiers, right? Not socio-political theory and very real issues?
So, to be more specific - does it REALLY affect you if I like a certain group of little plastic soldiers and you don't?
Just to confirm - this is a discussion board about toy plastic soldiers, right? Not socio-political theory and very real issues?
There is no difference. A bad idea is a bad one. Doesn't matter where or why it is done. Also the soft squating of a 700-1000$ collection of models sounds super real to me. Can't get any more real, unless your collection costs even more.
What on earth has this got to do with the discussion?
Because the argument that stuff should be viewed as good and okey, because you can find a group of people that like it is a stupid one. You can pick any thing to do, and you will always find a group of people that will say it is good and okey. Does not make the thing acceptable or good in general. It is a rather simple concept.
Nothing of significance was squatted, get over yourself. Not even "soft squatted".
Also: The argument isn't "stuff should be viewed as good and okay because you can find a group of people that like it". It's "you have no business telling other people what to like".
Ok ignore the great primaris lore cause apparently its superb top notch makes complete sense. How would people react if two wound 10 foot tall new elder came along? An ancient race happily living for millions of years oh wait cawl invented space elf steroids buy these new super elder. Primaris have killed any Hope's of 40k moving into other media. Just like aos did with fantasy. So far there has not been a single video game released set in age of sigmar or with primaris. It think that tells you enough. They killed their golden goose.
Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt you while being wrong and all.
Video games aren't an overnight thing for actual quality to happen. Doesn't help that if you really want to actually get more prevalence, you're looking at going for consoles notPCs...oh and what's that?
Warhammer 40k Darktide in 2021? Set during the time after the fall of Cadia...meaning there's possibly going to be Primaris showing up as playable?
Hrmmmmmmmmmmh....
The lore is obvious hand-waving nonsense to justify replacing the entire line of the most popular army with new models and units just different enough to make it impossible to keep using the old models to represent them, so every space marine player has to buy an entire new army.
That's just reality. It was a business decision. Everyone knows it was a business decision.
Now could they have done a better job with the hand-waving lore? Sure, of course. Was it lazy? Sure, of course. But it doesn't really matter. The Primaris Replacement Project has been overwhelmingly successful for GW. Almost nobody has refused to buy into it. By boiling the frog slowly they are now at a place where ~75% of the Space Marine line is replaced with more competitive Primaris options, and by the end of 9th it will be 100%.
Was it clumsy? A bit. But obviously not clumsy enough to matter.
I think it has been commonly explained as: what room for growth was left in the old marine ranks? Hundreds of units all did varying things, and each unit had decent flexibility as a whole. So much to balance, no room left to give them something that fit with the rest of the army yet provided something new and exciting... you'd just find units bumping heads for the same spot and it would be a matter of "which is better priced currently vs each other" not "which provides the tactical advantage I am looking for".
Marine players wanted to be involved in the parade of new models and new, fun units? Design wanted to design more Space Marine stuff since it is "iconic" and exciting for them? Well... you end up with Primaris. Unfortunately, it has turned into a 3 year roll out of WAY too much stuff and pretty much total abandonment of all the other factions in favor of the smurfs.
It's total junk. The idea itself is not necessarily total junk, but the way they implemented it is total junk.
Primaris actually could have been interesting without the economic imperative to hand-wave every chapter into immediate compliance. If they had had certain chapters embrace Primaris while others rejected it, based on each chapters' individual character, you could have ended up with an interesting situation that further explored the fundamental themes of the lore - old vs new, technology vs faith, tradition vs innovation. They could even have worked it up into something that threatened to produce a second schism, with traditionalist chapters considering Cawl and Girlyman to be dangerous heretics bent on a coup.
But because that wouldn't have sold as many models, they brute forced everyone (except GKs, which have their own model lines) into immediate compliance so they could sell the models to everybody, even if it meant ignoring and undermining all the fundamental themes of the game lore up to that point.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's total junk. The idea itself is not necessarily total junk, but the way they implemented it is total junk.
Primaris actually could have been interesting without the economic imperative to hand-wave every chapter into immediate compliance. If they had had certain chapters embrace Primaris while others rejected it, based on each chapters' individual character, you could have ended up with an interesting situation that further explored the fundamental themes of the lore - old vs new, technology vs faith, tradition vs innovation. They could even have worked it up into something that threatened to produce a second schism, with traditionalist chapters considering Cawl and Girlyman to be dangerous heretics bent on a coup.
But because that wouldn't have sold as many models, they brute forced everyone (except GKs, which have their own model lines) into immediate compliance so they could sell the models to everybody, even if it meant ignoring and undermining all the fundamental themes of the game lore up to that point.
GO. READ. THE. FLUFF.
The simple presence of them there doesn't mean they're accepted. Christ, the Raven Guard's 9th Company Captain treats the Primaris like they're simpletons and keeps a personal eye on them while refusing to take the Primaris treatments himself.
Kanluwen wrote: Pft. The lore's perfectly fine, assuming someone actually bothers to read it rather than relying on 4chan and memes.
dingdingdingding and we have a winner!
The worst part is that it's not even like all of it is in novels or something of that nature. The codices have outright talked about this stuff. The supplements expanded it.
I've read the fluff. None of it is anything but window dressing. There is some talking of the talk, but zero walking of the walk. GW wasn't brave enough to have even one major chapter refuse to accept Primaris, much less to let it develop into a major schism within the Astartes system. Instead they forced everyone to immediately comply for economic reasons, with only some token grumbling here and there. It's a classic example of results-oriented justification.
The idea that these hide-bound traditionalists who have behaved the same way for 10,000 years would suddenly accept newly created supermen that obsolete the way they have done business for the last ten millenia, presented to them by a deeply suspicious figure like Cawl, beggars belief. No amount of hand-waving with Girlyman's plan-500-generations-in-the-making can justify that.
Just to confirm - this is a discussion board about toy plastic soldiers, right? Not socio-political theory and very real issues?
There is no difference. A bad idea is a bad one. Doesn't matter where or why it is done.
Well, firstly, you'll need to prove it's "bad".
Things that lead to the death of REAL people? Definitely. Anything to do with little toy soliders? You'll have a hard time proving "bad" beyond your own opinion on the matter.
Also the soft squating of a 700-1000$ collection of models sounds super real to me. Can't get any more real, unless your collection costs even more.
I'm well aware my own collection of old Marines probably is more than that.
And you know what? I can still play older editions. I can still proxy. I can still make up rules and houserule.
But right now, I don't even have to do that, because we all still have rules for those models.
So, yeah, I take issue with the idea that "the end is nigh, all your models are worthless", because they only need be worthless if you believe they are.
What on earth has this got to do with the discussion?
Because the argument that stuff should be viewed as good and okey, because you can find a group of people that like it is a stupid one.
Why? If it's good enough for me and doesn't infringe on your interaction with the hobby, why does anyone feel the need to say I'm enjoying it wrong?
You can pick any thing to do, and you will always find a group of people that will say it is good and okey. Does not make the thing acceptable or good in general. It is a rather simple concept.
Sounds like a terrible concept, which not everyone agrees with, so I suggest we let people enjoy what they want, especially if it *only affects them*.
Icegoat wrote:How would people react if two wound 10 foot tall new elder came along?
If executed well, and the models look cool? I'm down for that.
An ancient race happily living for millions of years oh wait cawl invented space elf steroids buy these new super elder.
Sorry, "happily"? You know that the Eldar race is dying out, and are so desperate for a chance of survival that many turned to some of the most brutal acts imaginable to survive, and there's currently a major push within Eldar society to summon/birth/resurrect Ynnead to save their species?
If the Ynnari got some kind of 'Primaris-eque' unit makeover, and gave us loads of cool looking Eldar models, I wouldn't complain.
Primaris have killed any Hope's of 40k moving into other media.
That's why 40k has a larger media presence than ever, complete with BL's own Storyforge, an Eisenhorn show in the works (could be some time), and the new 40k Vermintide-like video game (can't remember the name, my apologies), and a Marvel Comics story about PRIMARIS Calgar aren't all happening, right?
40k's doing just fine, Primaris or no Primaris. And, frankly, I don't really think the general folks who have a more casual interest in 40k will really know, or care, too much about the difference between a Primaris and Firstborn Marine.
Primaris are modern resculpts of the space marine line. Any lore or rules nonsense to the contrary is just so they can make the transition gradually until they've resculpted enough of the line they they don't need any of the old kits.
Primaris ARE space marines. They're just the modern sculpts.
yukishiro1 wrote:I've read the fluff. None of it is anything but window dressing. There is some talking of the talk, but zero walking of the walk. GW wasn't brave enough to have even one major chapter refuse to accept Primaris, much less to let it develop into a major schism within the Astartes system.
Yeah, because screw anyone who collected Marines from that major Chapter, and then told they couldn't have Primaris because "reasons"!
If you don't want YOUR guys to have it, because they're so hidebound traditionalists? Then don't take any! You're not being forced to.
Instead they forced everyone to immediately comply for economic reasons, with only some token grumbling here and there. It's a classic example of results-oriented justification.
You're not being forced to comply. No-one's holding your wallet ransom.
If you don't want them, you don't have to get them. Simple as. But GW made sure that if you liked the look of them, you could get some for yourself - and I think that's the right way to go about things.
The idea that these hide-bound traditionalists who have behaved the same way for 10,000 years would suddenly accept newly created supermen that obsolete the way they have done business for the last ten millenia, presented to them by a deeply suspicious figure like Cawl, beggars belief.
Yeah, because Chapters never change and undergo metamorphoses under pressure, such as many of the First Founding Chapters being utterly decimated and torn to pieces, requiring immediate aid and assistance, as well as Emperor-blessed reinforcements and gifts from a goddamn Primarch.
Also, just to correct you as well, not all Chapters *did* completely adopt Primaris entirely into their command structure from the start. The Flesh Tearers and Dark Angels were notably hesitant to adopt Primaris Marines into their command structures and Chapter (have you read about why Azrael felt forced to accept Primaris Marines? It's an interesting story).
Plus, it's easy to say "they've always done it this way for 10,000 years!", but firstly, not all Chapters have been around for 10,000 years, secondly, aside from Dreadnoughts, the oldest Marines are pushing on only a tenth of that time, and thirdly, they didn't have access to Primaris technology.
This conversation has happened a lot, but here is what we've gleaned from the community, GW market-speak, and from what little information we've gotten from the 8th Ed design interviews:
People complained for years about the scale problem with marines. Marines were supposed to be nine foot tall superhumans, but the Astra Militarum models towered over them. GW pushed the scale of the oldMarine line as far as they could go until they hit a definite blocker in the MKVIII errant armor, in which the marines look like they are wearing lifts.
Add to this the other long-running player complaint: Marines were supposed to be humanity's elite, but they had been used as the baseline for all the other faction's troop choice since RT. This meant the army didn't feel elite at all - marines with their single wound died just as easily as an Ork or Tau.
Then came the SKU creep problem. It was hard to create anything new for Space Marines since the design space was almost entirely used up - anything 'new' had a bad habit of just being a minor variant of something already existing. It was becoming hard to sell Space Marine models - and whether you like it or not, selling Space Marines drives a lot of the profit that keeps WH40k in business.
The final element was the modeling problem. Earlier editions of 40k had been more RPG-like in nature and GW had, edition by edition, allowed people to equip Space Marines with almost every weapon they ever produced. The equipment list for the SM Captain was huge and it was both a headache to game balance as well as a source of complaints for new players, who had to dig into the secondary market to get esoteric weapons that weren't in the current kit.
GW decided to tackle all this problems in a way that would also make them money. It would release 'true scale' marines, that would solve the scaling problem and also update the look and feel for newer players who weren't even alive during the RT era. It would release them as a separate line of data sheets - thus removing the equipment creep problem and letting them adjust the core stat line of 1W that kept biting them in the butt. I would also use this opportunity to essentially replace the entire SM line with new models that shared this newer, more elite view of the SPace Marine faction - both fixing thier rule problem and also convincing that guy who stopped buying new Blood Angels models in 1997 to actually pick up some GW product again. Finally, it lets them restrict the new models in their equipment. You can't Thunder Hammer or Melta pistol every officer any more - Primaris marines come with very few options that don't require a whole separate data sheet. It even drops the idea of a single guy carrying a heavy weapon, which most other factions still have.
GW probably felt great until someone pointed out that putting down your AOBR marines next to your Primaris marines looked silly - the new marines were twice the size of the old plastic ones. They rather controversially fixed this by adding a bunch of new Lore to support the idea of a new kind of Space Marine. This triggered a lot of the older players, who had already memorized a crap ton of what is now 'oldmarine' or 'firstborn' lore.
All in all, it was a needed change that wasn't going to make anyone happy - but there aer some elements that GW could have done better. Especially in the Lore department, where they are now preparing to speed past the sillier bits in the hope that players will forget them.
GW probably felt great until someone pointed out that putting down your AOBR marines next to your Primaris marines looked silly - the new marines were twice the size of the old plastic ones. They rather controversially fixed this by adding a bunch of new Lore to support the idea of a new kind of Space Marine. This triggered a lot of the older players, who had already memorized a crap ton of what is now 'oldmarine' or 'firstborn' lore.
Funny how this ignores the Deathwatch Veteran kit, the Watch-Captain, the revamped CSMs that came later, etc etc etc.
My 2c: if they had framed Primaris around new gear and let them scale creep a little less while updating the aesthetic, I'd have been much more likely to get some, because there are honestly a lot of new pieces that look nice.
As-is, I found the narrative pushing the models too hard, and feel like they're actively trying to eliminate my older collection and the work I put in. So, instead of spending money on GW, I'll be using my dated collection until they squat it, and then proxying them as their primaris equivalents, which will take some unit reorganization but I never play in an environment where anyone is a stickler for representation anyway.
spiralingcadaver wrote: My 2c: if they had framed Primaris around new gear and let them scale creep a little less while updating the aesthetic, I'd have been much more likely to get some, because there are honestly a lot of new pieces that look nice.
As-is, I found the narrative pushing the models too hard, and feel like they're actively trying to eliminate my older collection and the work I put in. So, instead of spending money on GW, I'll be using my dated collection until they squat it, and then proxying them as their primaris equivalents, which will take some unit reorganization but I never play in an environment where anyone is a stickler for representation anyway.
Yeah, that's totally fair! There's no need to by models you don't want, just proxy to the closest equivalent if needed!
Purifying Tempest wrote: Marine players wanted to be involved in the parade of new models and new, fun units? Design wanted to design more Space Marine stuff since it is "iconic" and exciting for them? Well... you end up with Primaris. Unfortunately, it has turned into a 3 year roll out of WAY too much stuff and pretty much total abandonment of all the other factions in favor of the smurfs.
Immediate thought there is to give the Supplement treatment (or full 'dex treatment, whichever) to the remaining FF Chapters instead of the Primaris mess - except rather than just give them one SC (in terms of new models), actually put some effort into them.so that they get a closer degree of distinction to that of the BA/DA - maybe not the whole SW treatment, but 2-4 special units, 1-2 more SC, and make sure each of them has their specific CM as a model. Possibly some of the options people have talked about going missing, such as Terminator armour for IH sergeants (when was that actually a thing, btw?)
We could've seen plastic Breacher squads for the IF, a full-SM sniper unit for the RG (as opposed to Scout snipers), a pyro unit of some form for the Salamanders (and/or their Firedrakes) - I'm less clear on initial concepts for the Scars and IH (beyond the Termie Sergeant and an Iron Father for the IH), but I'm less familiar with their lore and archetypes.
Equally, you can then consider which of the units from the main 'dex don't fit the Chapters, and limit (or remove) those accordingly.
I think that would've given enough content for an edition. Still bring Guilliman back at the end of seventh, and if you decide you still want to press ahead with the Primaris mess, you've got the whole of an edition to start leaving tidbits of background to lead into their introduction, rather than having them appear out of nowhere at the dawn of eighth.
spiralingcadaver wrote: My 2c: if they had framed Primaris around new gear and let them scale creep a little less while updating the aesthetic, I'd have been much more likely to get some, because there are honestly a lot of new pieces that look nice.
As-is, I found the narrative pushing the models too hard, and feel like they're actively trying to eliminate my older collection and the work I put in. So, instead of spending money on GW, I'll be using my dated collection until they squat it, and then proxying them as their primaris equivalents, which will take some unit reorganization but I never play in an environment where anyone is a stickler for representation anyway.
No you wouldn't.
You literally just said that you're "using your dated collection until they squat it, and then proxying them as their primaris equivalent".
There's nothing stopping you from getting any of the "a lot of new pieces that look nice" right now. There's very little overlap in terms of roles and the like as well.
You just don't want to buy anything. And that's fine. But don't pretend otherwise.
yukishiro1 wrote:I've read the fluff. None of it is anything but window dressing. There is some talking of the talk, but zero walking of the walk. GW wasn't brave enough to have even one major chapter refuse to accept Primaris, much less to let it develop into a major schism within the Astartes system.
Yeah, because screw anyone who collected Marines from that major Chapter, and then told they couldn't have Primaris because "reasons"!
If you don't want YOUR guys to have it, because they're so hidebound traditionalists? Then don't take any! You're not being forced to.
Instead they forced everyone to immediately comply for economic reasons, with only some token grumbling here and there. It's a classic example of results-oriented justification.
You're not being forced to comply. No-one's holding your wallet ransom.
If you don't want them, you don't have to get them. Simple as. But GW made sure that if you liked the look of them, you could get some for yourself - and I think that's the right way to go about things.
The right way from an economic standpoint, obviously. But that's the whole point: the "lore" behind Primaris is just hand-waving nonsense to justify replacing the entire Space Marine line with new models to get people to rebuy their entire armies.
The marines have changed quite often since the Rogue Trader days.
That said, 40K does indeed have iconic visuals and GW would do well to tread carefully with them. For example, terminators are associated with not only Space Hulk but also its numerous video game adaptations. It would also be risky to muck about too much with the Death Wing company, as they are famous for their terminator suits.
While we still can, we can make lemonade from lemons. For example, I came up with a small chapter based on jungle teams and is made up exclusively from scouts and reavers. They do look odd at different heights but they complement each other very well, with scouts providing an array of support weapons that allow reavers to focus on being their usual happy-go-psycho selves.
Purifying Tempest wrote: Marine players wanted to be involved in the parade of new models and new, fun units? Design wanted to design more Space Marine stuff since it is "iconic" and exciting for them? Well... you end up with Primaris. Unfortunately, it has turned into a 3 year roll out of WAY too much stuff and pretty much total abandonment of all the other factions in favor of the smurfs.
Immediate thought there is to give the Supplement treatment (or full 'dex treatment, whichever) to the remaining FF Chapters instead of the Primaris mess - except rather than just give them one SC (in terms of new models), actually put some effort into them.so that they get a closer degree of distinction to that of the BA/DA - maybe not the whole SW treatment, but 2-4 special units, 1-2 more SC, and make sure each of them has their specific CM as a model. Possibly some of the options people have talked about going missing, such as Terminator armour for IH sergeants (when was that actually a thing, btw?)
The doctrine era book suggested using "Scions of Mars", IIRC, which allowed for it. I think. I don't own that book anymore.
We could've seen plastic Breacher squads for the IF, a full-SM sniper unit for the RG (as opposed to Scout snipers), a pyro unit of some form for the Salamanders (and/or their Firedrakes) - I'm less clear on initial concepts for the Scars and IH (beyond the Termie Sergeant and an Iron Father for the IH), but I'm less familiar with their lore and archetypes.
Equally, you can then consider which of the units from the main 'dex don't fit the Chapters, and limit (or remove) those accordingly.
I think that would've given enough content for an edition. Still bring Guilliman back at the end of seventh, and if you decide you still want to press ahead with the Primaris mess, you've got the whole of an edition to start leaving tidbits of background to lead into their introduction, rather than having them appear out of nowhere at the dawn of eighth.
A big thing to consider is that the biggest factor of adding Primaris? It's a way for them to have standardized units across all the Marine stuff in one big go. Any unique or special items can be added via Chapter upgrade stuff sold separately so they can cut down on SKUs in a meaningful way or start pulling some items back to Direct Only.
Another thing to consider is that having everything standardized but then allowing for certain groups to get a bonus while using them? That lets you control balance a bit more as well.
yukishiro1 wrote:I've read the fluff. None of it is anything but window dressing. There is some talking of the talk, but zero walking of the walk. GW wasn't brave enough to have even one major chapter refuse to accept Primaris, much less to let it develop into a major schism within the Astartes system.
Yeah, because screw anyone who collected Marines from that major Chapter, and then told they couldn't have Primaris because "reasons"!
If you don't want YOUR guys to have it, because they're so hidebound traditionalists? Then don't take any! You're not being forced to.
Instead they forced everyone to immediately comply for economic reasons, with only some token grumbling here and there. It's a classic example of results-oriented justification.
You're not being forced to comply. No-one's holding your wallet ransom.
If you don't want them, you don't have to get them. Simple as. But GW made sure that if you liked the look of them, you could get some for yourself - and I think that's the right way to go about things.
The right way from an economic standpoint, obviously. But that's the whole point: the "lore" behind Primaris is just hand-waving nonsense to justify replacing the entire Space Marine line with new models to get people to rebuy their entire armies.
Thanks for proving my point for me.
He really did not prove your point.
You're just being stubborn and refusing to listen to something else than memes when it comes to the primaris lore. It makes sense that Cawl knows how to do marines +1. It makes sense that Guilliman saw the threats the imperium was facing and told cawl to launch primaris production. There IS tension between firstborn and primaris in the fluff.
The whole "40k is a about stagnancy" has never been true anyway. and even if it is, its possible to have individuals that see the benefits of progress (Bobby G and Cawl). Put them in charge and yeah. primaris fit perfectly in the lore.
GW has to protect their IP copyright as such they started by changing all the names. imperial guard was to generic so they could not own it, so they changed it to astra militarum.
same with "space marines" VS *primaris and adeptus astartes.
This also opened the door for them to make new iconic minis (that they own the look of) and new models with new rules to go along with them, for an improved sales profile. and it worked.
But not any tension that amounts to anything significant for their economic bottom line.
And no, that nonsense about Guilliman's plan-500-generations-in-the-making is just that: nonsense. It's a transparent retcon to try to give some justification to an economic decision.
Does anybody here - anybody - honestly think they came up with the lore ideas for Primaris first and then decided they were so cool and awesome that it justified replacing the entire Space Marine line? Of course not. This is economics driving the lore, not vice versa.
SamusDrake wrote: The marines have changed quite often since the Rogue Trader days.
That said, 40K does indeed have iconic visuals and GW would do well to tread carefully with them. For example, terminators are associated with not only Space Hulk but also its numerous video game adaptations. It would also be risky to muck about too much with the Death Wing company, as they are famous for their terminator suits.
This is kinda/sorta one of those things that people need to remember. They're "famous for being able to field the entirety of the First Company in Terminator Suits"...as in the 100 strong Company. There's more than just 100 people in the Deathwing. You have the various other Masters, Librarians, Chaplains, etc.
It's like "Raven Guard are the jump pack chapter". No, they're the ambush chapter. It's just a hard concept to put down on the field, since I can't just run up onto the table while you're waiting for me and throw down all my snipers to take out some units, pack them up, and then deploy the Assault Marines/Reivers/whatever to get you afterwards.
yukishiro1 wrote: But not any tension that amounts to anything significant for their economic bottom line.
And no, that nonsense about Guilliman's plan-500-generations-in-the-making is just that: nonsense. It's a transparent retcon to try to give some justification to an economic decision.
Does anybody here - anybody - honestly think they came up with the lore ideas for Primaris first and then decided they were so cool and awesome that it justified replacing the entire Space Marine line? Of course not. This is economics driving the lore, not vice versa.
So if primaris sold poorly you would be fine with the lore?
Youre just salty because you think primaris means oldmarines are out and that you HAVE to buy primaris and that you can't chose to make a chapter that doesnt allow them
spiralingcadaver wrote: My 2c: if they had framed Primaris around new gear and let them scale creep a little less while updating the aesthetic, I'd have been much more likely to get some, because there are honestly a lot of new pieces that look nice.
As-is, I found the narrative pushing the models too hard, and feel like they're actively trying to eliminate my older collection and the work I put in. So, instead of spending money on GW, I'll be using my dated collection until they squat it, and then proxying them as their primaris equivalents, which will take some unit reorganization but I never play in an environment where anyone is a stickler for representation anyway.
I mean at this point you have direct analogues for
-Marines
-Devastators with MM, Devastators with PC, Devastators with LC, and upcoming Devastators with HB -Bikers
-Predator tank
-Land Raider
-Rhino
-Dreadnought
-Tactical Terminator (Fist/Bolter config)
-Knife Scouts
-Bolter Scouts
-Attack Bike
-Sniper Scouts
-Captains, Chaplains, Libbies, Techmarines, etc, etc, etc.
There are definitely a few missing links, assault terminators, assault marines, some weapons that don't have analogues yet, but pretty much anyone I know who owns a classic marine army could pretty much run them as primaris with very minor proxying.
The main reason they don't in my experience is that people enjoy the fact that marine squads had flexible loadouts, they didn't like that Primaris was a pure gunline army (we'll see if the new assault/biker stuff changes that take) and they wanted more assault/mobile stuff.
The most resistant to primaris are people who play their marines as a mobile short range force (min squads with double specials in rhinos/razorbacks) a deep strike force with drop pods, or a mobile force with lots of bikers/assault guys. Pre-Indomitus, primaris were admittedly quite bad at doing all those things.
There's also resistance to losing the 'meta' builds of characters where you give up the mobility options, the deep strike options, and the heavy damage assault options. Basically, mobility almost always makes a character the best option, you almost never will see a situtation where people willingly choose on-foot options for characters when a 12" move or Fly version is available.
yukishiro1 wrote: But not any tension that amounts to anything significant for their economic bottom line.
And no, that nonsense about Guilliman's plan-500-generations-in-the-making is just that: nonsense. It's a transparent retcon to try to give some justification to an economic decision.
Does anybody here - anybody - honestly think they came up with the lore ideas for Primaris first and then decided they were so cool and awesome that it justified replacing the entire Space Marine line? Of course not. This is economics driving the lore, not vice versa.
So if primaris sold poorly you would be fine with the lore?
Youre just salty because you think primaris means oldmarines are out and that you HAVE to buy primaris and that you can't chose to make a chapter that doesnt allow them
I don't even play marines. Please stop trying to make everything into a personal attack, it makes discussion pointless. Straw men are also silly. The point isn't whether primaris sold well or not, the point is that the decision to introduce primaris was 100% economic and 0% lore-based. The lore was just cooked up after the fact.
Power-fantasy factions that are recognizably human ALWAYS sell the best and are the overwhelming choice for new players entering in to any kind of fantasy setting. It uncomplicates a large narrative setting if your character can just be you, but hotter and with a big sword. DnD knows this, Warcraft knows this, GW knows this (and its why one of the biggest differences between AOS and Sigmar is the Sigmarines!)
Space marines were great for that. But not *perfect* - they had some pitfalls for a new player, chief among them is that there had always been many ways you could build your marines in a way that was just...wrong.
Show of hands, who had the el classico GW kit configuration in their first marine kits? I'm talking first tactical squad: Power fist because feth yeah, melta gun because hot damn it's called a MELTA GUN feth yeah, and then a rocket launcher because ROCKET LAUNCHER feth yeah! A devastator squad? Let's make sure these suckers can handle all the threats: Heavy Bolter, Rocket Launcher, Lascannon, Multi-melta! Now we're ready to handle whatever the battlefield throws at us! How could this be bad?
Oh, it's really really really REALLY REALLY bad? And I just spent 80$ on those two kits? And I glued them together before my first game?
This is the primary driver behind primaris marines being mono-loadout, and the primary driver behind many primaris units having a mix of capabilities. All their vehicles come with anti-tank and anti-infantry weaponry. A lot of their units have mostly anti-infantry weapons, but also powerfists, or also a haywire bomb, some way to threaten tanks as well. A lot of others have plasma: The original flexible weapon type. This is so it's much harder for a newbie to build either their kits wrong, or their overall army wrong. They're marines, built to cater to someone who has never played the game before.
And that's the real reason why CSM and SM have such totally different design philosophies: GW knows that Newbie Ned is going to buy space marines, and he's going to want ease of entry, uncomplicated kits, cheaper price point, and the ability to play 2k games with the big boys at the club as quickly as possible. And they know that once newbie ned builds his 2k marine army, THAT'S when he might look into CSM - and at that point, he's going to want hyper-customization. He's going to want them to be HIS GUYS.
CSM, Sisters, Harlequins, Admech, GSC - all these armies were released with the intention that they'd be purchased by experienced hobbyists willing to spend more on their army who want their experience to be more customizable.
Power-fantasy factions that are recognizably human ALWAYS sell the best and are the overwhelming choice for new players entering in to any kind of fantasy setting. It uncomplicates a large narrative setting if your character can just be you, but hotter and with a big sword. DnD knows this, Warcraft knows this, GW knows this (and its why one of the biggest differences between AOS and Sigmar is the Sigmarines!)
yukishiro1 wrote:But that's the whole point: the "lore" behind Primaris is just hand-waving nonsense to justify replacing the entire Space Marine line with new models to get people to rebuy their entire armies.
Where GW is concerned? The lore is nearly always secondary - this isn't a Primaris exclusive issue, whatever problem you have with it.
Admech getting winged units? I somehow don't think the lore was the first concern. And you know what? That's okay! The lore doesn't HAVE to be the main reason you made new things. Making new models can be done out of "this is a cool concept", or "this could do with a remake" or more cynically "let's encourage some folks to buy this".
But this whole "getting people to rebuy their armies" is nonsense, because you can still use your old armies. Hell, if people are having issues with "they've forcing us to rebuy our armies!!", do you share that same problem with the new Chaos Marines? The new Sisters? If GW make another regiment of guardsmen beyond Cadians, will that be the same?
No, because they don't control your purchasing.
SamusDrake wrote:That said, 40K does indeed have iconic visuals and GW would do well to tread carefully with them. For example, terminators are associated with not only Space Hulk but also its numerous video game adaptations. It would also be risky to muck about too much with the Death Wing company, as they are famous for their terminator suits.
Oh, some visuals and aesthetics must be retained, for sure. However, I think that's more of a testament to the design of the Space Marines and Primaris - a Primaris Marine still looks like a Space Marine on the visual level. The backpack is largely the same, the style of plating, the general boxiness of the bolter, the grille-like faceplate, the large curved pauldrons - a newcomer will be able to register that a Primaris Marine and Firstborn in Mark VII are both Space Marines.
I've found that Gravis Armour isn't all too different from Terminator plate, but it's mostly in the helmet and equipment that would define how they look. An "Aggressor" carrying an Assault Bolter and a power fist, with a terminator's helmet, isn't a bad stand-in for a standard Terminator.
Because whoever is making these decisions doesn't care for the traditional style of 40k. They think that a more generic scifi, disney, warhammer heroes will appeal to a broader range of people and that is worth losing older players that like the original aesthetic. And they're probably right.
The idea that these hide-bound traditionalists who have behaved the same way for 10,000 years would suddenly accept newly created supermen that obsolete the way they have done business for the last ten millenia, presented to them by a deeply suspicious figure like Cawl, beggars belief.
If you read the novels, they really haven't just said "Oh cool!" and just gone along with it. There are a ton of examples where they are HIGHLY suspicious and untrusting, but the issue is, as it stands, they can either at least APPEAR to accept them, OR have an open rebellion.
The main Primaris character in BOTH Dark Imperium novels spends multiple pages whinging about not being accepted properly and always be sort of shunned from the chapter proper.
In another more recent novel (blanking on the name ATM) a UM chaplain is assigned a Intercessor squad when he and his fellow marines are finally called to meet up with a Torch Bearer fleet. He hasn't even heard of the Primaris yet so he's fairly off-put by the situation. They end up fighting Iron Warriors later on. At one point there's a downed IW marine and the Chaplain and Intercessors are standing over him. The IW looks at the Intercessors, then back at the Chaplain and starts to laugh and say "You are the new Thunder Warriors" or something like that, but the Chaplain executes him before he can finish the thought. The Intercessors ask what that was about and the Chaplain refuses to tell them. He spends most of the rest of the book completely unsettled by them.
If I'm not mistaken, one of the chapters that frequently works with/for the Inquisition has also flat out refused Primaris marines in the fluff but now I'm blanking on the specifics. It's been a long day.
All of that said, they went an awfully long way to shoehorn the new models. I agree it wasn't handled well, just pointing out that it's not necessarily true that the chapters are all just auto-accepting of the change ...
AFAIK firstborn marines as still a viable army to field. I can imagine GW keeping them around for some time still. And I for one am still collecting firstborn marines, actually I still have many, many kits I need to buy before they become OOP.
Then, when I've finished building my dream army from my teenage years, I can start collecting Primaris some more. I already have some, and was thinking I might use them for "truescaling" my firstborn but nah, too many pieces would be lost. I love the heresy era armor marks too much I guess. I'll just get more Primaris gradually and maybe even start a whole new army with them instead..
I think firstborn will get a separate codex before getting legended. I can totally see firstborns as a separate faction from Primaris Astartes altogether, instead of getting squatted. I can even see the future of the Inperium breaking down into anarchy, where Primaris chapters will fight Firstborns while Chaos eats popcorn watching the fight unfold on a holonet channel on Slaaneshmas
At the very least, there will be several editions worth of 40K to play and the whole Horus Heresy game for yall intent on sticking to firstborn only. I will have both firstborn and Primaris, thanks.
yukishiro1 wrote:But that's the whole point: the "lore" behind Primaris is just hand-waving nonsense to justify replacing the entire Space Marine line with new models to get people to rebuy their entire armies.
Where GW is concerned? The lore is nearly always secondary - this isn't a Primaris exclusive issue, whatever problem you have with it.
Admech getting winged units? I somehow don't think the lore was the first concern. And you know what? That's okay! The lore doesn't HAVE to be the main reason you made new things. Making new models can be done out of "this is a cool concept", or "this could do with a remake" or more cynically "let's encourage some folks to buy this".
But this whole "getting people to rebuy their armies" is nonsense, because you can still use your old armies. Hell, if people are having issues with "they've forcing us to rebuy our armies!!", do you share that same problem with the new Chaos Marines? The new Sisters? If GW make another regiment of guardsmen beyond Cadians, will that be the same?
No, because they don't control your purchasing.
SamusDrake wrote:That said, 40K does indeed have iconic visuals and GW would do well to tread carefully with them. For example, terminators are associated with not only Space Hulk but also its numerous video game adaptations. It would also be risky to muck about too much with the Death Wing company, as they are famous for their terminator suits.
Oh, some visuals and aesthetics must be retained, for sure. However, I think that's more of a testament to the design of the Space Marines and Primaris - a Primaris Marine still looks like a Space Marine on the visual level. The backpack is largely the same, the style of plating, the general boxiness of the bolter, the grille-like faceplate, the large curved pauldrons - a newcomer will be able to register that a Primaris Marine and Firstborn in Mark VII are both Space Marines.
I've found that Gravis Armour isn't all too different from Terminator plate, but it's mostly in the helmet and equipment that would define how they look. An "Aggressor" carrying an Assault Bolter and a power fist, with a terminator's helmet, isn't a bad stand-in for a standard Terminator.
Personally I think when "the grand squattening" occurs, GW will take several elements of the classic marines and just quietly handwave them forward.
Drop Pods, Terminators, SM Flyers, Centurions, and a few others that don't conspicuously feature old scale marines will just stay, and all marines will be primaris marines.
I also have a feeling we'll have a wave of stuff about the size of the indomitus wave that will carry forward the most iconic marine sub-faction units. We'll get primaris sang guard, primaris ravenwing, primaris space wolves, primaris GK strikes/interceptors, and primaris deathwatch vets, and then they'll just maintain all the unique terminator units, all the unique flyers, and that'll be that until they can get around to updating all the named characters, who will probably linger the longest.
as a xenos player one space marine is as good as another space marine. They all look the same except some have spikes. And I certainly keep seeing only new space marines so not sure why anyone would think they are dead..
Personally I think when "the grand squattening" occurs, GW will take several elements of the classic marines and just quietly handwave them forward.
I think we're still a long way off from that day, but agreed. I think it will be like how they handled the introduction of things like Centurions where, one edition they weren't a thing, and the next, BOOM. Suddenly they exist and have been introduced in such a way that implies they have always existed.
Tycho wrote:In another more recent novel (blanking on the name ATM) a UM chaplain is assigned a Intercessor squad when he and his fellow marines are finally called to meet up with a Torch Bearer fleet. He hasn't even heard of the Primaris yet so he's fairly off-put by the situation. They end up fighting Iron Warriors later on. At one point there's a downed IW marine and the Chaplain and Intercessors are standing over him. The IW looks at the Intercessors, then back at the Chaplain and starts to laugh and say "You are the new Thunder Warriors" or something like that, but the Chaplain executes him before he can finish the thought. The Intercessors ask what that was about and the Chaplain refuses to tell them. He spends most of the rest of the book completely unsettled by them.
That sounds right. The main plot was fairly "meh" ... Your basic SM Bolter porn, but the sub-plot of these marines dealing with the Primaris for the first time and ebing completely thrown off by them was actually really well done IMO.
I think it was because for a while it seemed like everyone and their dog wanted true/better scaled models. Now seeing the primaris range I'm inclined to agree as they look so much better than the old firstborn marines IMHO.
Irkjoe wrote: Because whoever is making these decisions doesn't care for the traditional style of 40k. They think that a more generic scifi, disney, warhammer heroes will appeal to a broader range of people and that is worth losing older players that like the original aesthetic. And they're probably right.
To pretend that space marines ever weren't really "generic scifi" is disingenuous.
It's the extra gubbins that made them kinda/sorta unique. We're starting to see those materialize on the Primaris.
Irkjoe wrote: Because whoever is making these decisions doesn't care for the traditional style of 40k. They think that a more generic scifi, disney, warhammer heroes will appeal to a broader range of people and that is worth losing older players that like the original aesthetic. And they're probably right.
To pretend that space marines ever weren't really "generic scifi" is disingenuous.
It's the extra gubbins that made them kinda/sorta unique. We're starting to see those materialize on the Primaris.
Yeah,, intercessors are basically space marines without the heavy/special weapons.
So where is the big distinction between "other generic sci-fi" and "40k" hiding then? is it in the Lascannon? The Plasma Gun? The Rocket Launcher? The Heavy Bolter? Never heard of any other sci fi settings that had weapons like those, no sir.../s
But this whole "getting people to rebuy their armies" is nonsense, because you can still use your old armies. Hell, if people are having issues with "they've forcing us to rebuy our armies!!", do you share that same problem with the new Chaos Marines? The new Sisters? If GW make another regiment of guardsmen beyond Cadians, will that be the same?
No, because they don't control your purchasing.
But this is just a silly argument. Nobody can ever force you to buy anything. Those example aren't the same because if you have old sisters squads you can continue to use them as the new sisters or CSM squads (not that anybody uses CSM). You can't use tacs as intercessors.
But the idea that GW aren't trying to get people to rebuy their armies is absurd. That is 100% what the Primaris Project is all about. The entire reason Primaris exist is to get Space Marine players to rebuy their armies with new models that they can't use the old ones as stand-ins for. It's also the reason that Primaris generally and in particular Intercessors have been aggressively pointed relative to tacs: they want you to buy intercessors and use those, not to use tacs. There is no reasonable argument that 15 points for a tac and 20 for an intercessor is a reasonable pointing. Everyone knows that the intercessor gets a better points valuation in order to encourage people to make the switch. Scouts are going to elites in the new codex (after taking a big points nerf in CA2020) for exactly the same reason.
Primaris is the future. Old marines will go away as soon as GW can get away with it. Everybody knows these facts. It's not some big coincidence that GW hasn't released oldmarine kits in ages.
Literally everything. I mean you can use smurfs (real smurfs) as stand-in for space marines if you want to; anything can be proxied for anything. But the new primaris kits are specifically made to be different enough from oldmarine equivalents that you can't have one "counts as" for the other except in garagehammer games where you're also using a toilet roll as a ruin and a back to the future toy car as a repulsor.
But this whole "getting people to rebuy their armies" is nonsense, because you can still use your old armies. Hell, if people are having issues with "they've forcing us to rebuy our armies!!", do you share that same problem with the new Chaos Marines? The new Sisters? If GW make another regiment of guardsmen beyond Cadians, will that be the same?
No, because they don't control your purchasing.
But this is just a silly argument. Nobody can ever force you to buy anything. But the idea that GW aren't trying to get people to rebuy their armies is absurd. That is 100% what the Primaris Project is all about. The entire reason Primaris exist is to get Space Marine players to rebuy their armies with new models that they can't use the old ones as stand-ins for. It's also the reason that Primaris generally and in particular Intercessors have been aggressively pointed relative to tacs: they want you to buy intercessors and use those, not to use tacs. There is no reasonable argument that 15 points for a tac and 20 for an intercessor is a reasonable pointing. Everyone knows that the intercessor gets a better points valuation in order to encourage people to make the switch. Scouts are going to elites in the new codex (after taking a big points nerf in CA2020) for exactly the same reason.
Primaris is the future. Old marines will go away as soon as GW can get away with it. Everybody knows these facts. It's not some big coincidence that GW hasn't released oldmarine kits in ages.
Oh it's for sure a secondary goal. That is absolutely 100% why every primaris unit isn't a direct WYSIWYG analogue to an oldmarine unit. It's why you have random secondary weapon systems on the new dreadnought, why you have scouts split up into four kits with slightly unique wargear options tossed in here or there, and why you have these weird tweaks that almost look like existing marine units but aren't quite like the invictus and inceptors.
they DEFINITELy want to get as much of the primaris range out into the world before they start releasing the units that are perfect analogues to oldmarine units. I'm also wiling to bet there's some sneakily hiding away in full kits - like the Assault Intercessors box will finally come with Jump Packs in it to allow people to 1-for-1 replace their assault marines finally.
The primary goal of primaris is still "make Marines a better entry point to the hobby than they were. Make them cheaper to get to 2k without decreasing the price of the kits (check), make them impossible to feth up loadout wise (check) and make them a stronger, more unified brand by removing the disparate elements that did not have good Brand Recognition like scout pattern armor (check)."
Yeah,, intercessors are basically space marines without the heavy/special weapons.
So where is the big distinction between "other generic sci-fi" and "40k" hiding then? is it in the Lascannon? The Plasma Gun? The Rocket Launcher? The Heavy Bolter? Never heard of any other sci fi settings that had weapons like those, no sir.../s
I hear this all the time and I kind of chuckle at it. It's like when someone makes fun of the original 80's/90's American action movie stars like Arnold and Sly Stalone for "being such cliches" while completely missing the fact that they were so good at what they did that they are the REASON those things became so cliche to begin with. lol
For marines - you can arguably see some Star Wars/Storm Trooper influence in their helmets, but after that, most of the armor design is coming from traditional suits of plate mail armor. This is, in part where the "knights in space" thing comes from. There are quite a few sci-fi armor designs that came along after the Space Marines that borrowed from/expanded on that design (Star Craft is a good example), and I think, because of this, people look back and go - oh yeah - Space Marines - they're generic sci-fi, but that's not really accurate IMO.
Admittedly, if you look at more modern sci-fi, the trend has been towards complexity. Lots of detail, lots of fiddly bits, but I don't think a lot of those styles will stand the text of time, and I also don't think they would work as well for miniatures.
EDIT:
There was even a thread on Dakka a few years ago where someone accused GW of stealing the Starcraft designs for both the Zerg and the Marines. The person either didn't realize Starcraft came WAAAAYYYYYYY after 40k, or just didn't want to admit it, but yeah - it's surprisingly common for people to hold 40k up as "generic" scifi when it often really isn't.
Irkjoe wrote: Because whoever is making these decisions doesn't care for the traditional style of 40k. They think that a more generic scifi, disney, warhammer heroes will appeal to a broader range of people and that is worth losing older players that like the original aesthetic. And they're probably right.
To pretend that space marines ever weren't really "generic scifi" is disingenuous.
Chainsword wielding, brain eating, space-Nazis-as-the-GOOD-guys, doesn't strike me as "generic sci-fi".
You want generic sci-fi, look no further than the Repulsor.
Kanluwen wrote: What in the Primaris range can't you use old ones as stand-ins for or easily convert?
-Inceptors/Infiltrators would be tough to differentiate from Intercessors counts-as
-Intercessors with stalker/assault
-Inceptors
-Suppressors
-Spacemario Kart
-Space marine turret thingies (both the big one and the small one)
-Repulsor Executioner
-Las-fusil eliminators
-Flamer Aggressors
Typically, in each kit they make sure there's at least one non-analogue to the old marine line.
Irkjoe wrote: Because whoever is making these decisions doesn't care for the traditional style of 40k. They think that a more generic scifi, disney, warhammer heroes will appeal to a broader range of people and that is worth losing older players that like the original aesthetic. And they're probably right.
To pretend that space marines ever weren't really "generic scifi" is disingenuous.
Chainsword wielding, brain eating, space-Nazis-as-the-GOOD-guys, doesn't strike me as "generic sci-fi".
You want generic sci-fi, look no further than the Repulsor.
Yeah, not like the totally unique and original Land Raider that we definitely didn't wholly copy/paste from judge dredd no sirree
I generally play the bad guys - CSMs and Dark Eldar. I've not had regular marines till just now, having picked up the Indomitus box.
In isolation, I love the Primaris sculpts. The new Judiciar in particular is glorious. But when compared to other factions models they look too big. Too big to be human, even enhanced superhumans. It feels slightly off to me. (I'm not a big fan of Roboute / Abaddon being so huge either) But... When you have stuff in the lore about them being slightly weird and distrusted by the old marines, maybe that fits..?
Certainly, not having had old marines previously, I don't really feel like I miss them by having got Primaris. There are a few things that do bug me though.
I personally find Terminators to be more iconic than the tactical marines, and I'm feeling their absence in the new Marine range. Also - the vehicles. The Rhino, Predator and Land Raider are really iconic to me. It kind of makes sense that the new big boys don't fit in them, but I don't like it. The new vehicles for the Primaris just don't have the same look and feel, and appeal, to me. I don't like that they all hover. I don't like this weird fixation on stubbers all of a sudden - stubbers, to me, are a weedier weapon for Guard who can't lug a bolter around.
I suppose as well, all the Primaris stuff is just a bit too good. As an 80s child and a reformed Goth, I rather liked the grimdark setting where humanity was doomed, and was staving off the inevitable with dwindling supplies of misunderstood relics from a bygone age. New boys with shiny new weapons and vehicles merrily kicking arse in all directions feels like quite a shift to me.
Irkjoe wrote: Because whoever is making these decisions doesn't care for the traditional style of 40k. They think that a more generic scifi, disney, warhammer heroes will appeal to a broader range of people and that is worth losing older players that like the original aesthetic. And they're probably right.
To pretend that space marines ever weren't really "generic scifi" is disingenuous.
Chainsword wielding, brain eating, space-Nazis-as-the-GOOD-guys, doesn't strike me as "generic sci-fi".
You want generic sci-fi, look no further than the Repulsor.
Yeah, not like the totally unique and original Land Raider that we definitely didn't wholly copy/paste from judge dredd no sirree
Show me the Dredd artwork. I know they had something called a Land Raider, but iirc it didn't look the same at all.
Oh it's for sure a secondary goal. That is absolutely 100% why every primaris unit isn't a direct WYSIWYG analogue to an oldmarine unit. It's why you have random secondary weapon systems on the new dreadnought, why you have scouts split up into four kits with slightly unique wargear options tossed in here or there, and why you have these weird tweaks that almost look like existing marine units but aren't quite like the invictus and inceptors.
they DEFINITELy want to get as much of the primaris range out into the world before they start releasing the units that are perfect analogues to oldmarine units. I'm also wiling to bet there's some sneakily hiding away in full kits - like the Assault Intercessors box will finally come with Jump Packs in it to allow people to 1-for-1 replace their assault marines finally.
The primary goal of primaris is still "make Marines a better entry point to the hobby than they were. Make them cheaper to get to 2k without decreasing the price of the kits (check), make them impossible to feth up loadout wise (check) and make them a stronger, more unified brand by removing the disparate elements that did not have good Brand Recognition like scout pattern armor (check)."
All those things could have been done without Primaris. They could have just done what they do with every other army, and update the basic rules for models to work the way they think they should.
I agree that there's a clear attempt to give people a good beginner faction that they can't screw up that is just better than everyone else (not necessarily competitively, but on a model by model basis) and therefore good for noobs to play with, that feel like generic sci-fi heroes. But there was no reason to do that as a new unit range that replaced the entire army. The reason Primaris are Primaris and not just Updated Marines is to get people rebuying their armies.
Yeah,, intercessors are basically space marines without the heavy/special weapons.
So where is the big distinction between "other generic sci-fi" and "40k" hiding then? is it in the Lascannon? The Plasma Gun? The Rocket Launcher? The Heavy Bolter? Never heard of any other sci fi settings that had weapons like those, no sir.../s
I hear this all the time and I kind of chuckle at it. It's like when someone makes fun of the original 80's/90's American action movie stars like Arnold and Sly Stalone for "being such cliches" while completely missing the fact that they were so good at what they did that they are the REASON those things became so cliche to begin with. lol
For marines - you can arguably see some Star Wars/Storm Trooper influence in their helmets, but after that, most of the armor design is coming from traditional suits of plate mail armor. This is, in part where the "knights in space" thing comes from. There are quite a few sci-fi armor designs that came along after the Space Marines that borrowed from/expanded on that design (Star Craft is a good example), and I think, because of this, people look back and go - oh yeah - Space Marines - they're generic sci-fi, but that's not really accurate IMO.
Admittedly, if you look at more modern sci-fi, the trend has been towards complexity. Lots of detail, lots of fiddly bits, but I don't think a lot of those styles will stand the text of time, and I also don't think they would work as well for miniatures.
EDIT:
There was even a thread on Dakka a few years ago where someone accused GW of stealing the Starcraft designs for both the Zerg and the Marines. The person either didn't realize Starcraft came WAAAAYYYYYYY after 40k, or just didn't want to admit it, but yeah - it's surprisingly common for people to hold 40k up as "generic" scifi when it often really isn't.
But intercessor armor is practically identical. If anything, it's less fiddly, since you don't have the older armor marks scattered in there and they've swapped some elements like the stormtrooper looking mouth to the more medieval knight looking smooth face helmet.
My question was: Where in the distinction between Oldmarine Thing (Tactical Marine) and Newmarine thing (intercessor) was the "original 40k-ness" swapped for "generic sci-fi ness"?
Oh it's for sure a secondary goal. That is absolutely 100% why every primaris unit isn't a direct WYSIWYG analogue to an oldmarine unit. It's why you have random secondary weapon systems on the new dreadnought, why you have scouts split up into four kits with slightly unique wargear options tossed in here or there, and why you have these weird tweaks that almost look like existing marine units but aren't quite like the invictus and inceptors.
they DEFINITELy want to get as much of the primaris range out into the world before they start releasing the units that are perfect analogues to oldmarine units. I'm also wiling to bet there's some sneakily hiding away in full kits - like the Assault Intercessors box will finally come with Jump Packs in it to allow people to 1-for-1 replace their assault marines finally.
The primary goal of primaris is still "make Marines a better entry point to the hobby than they were. Make them cheaper to get to 2k without decreasing the price of the kits (check), make them impossible to feth up loadout wise (check) and make them a stronger, more unified brand by removing the disparate elements that did not have good Brand Recognition like scout pattern armor (check)."
All those things could have been done without Primaris. They could have just done what they do with every other army, and update the basic rules for models to work the way they think they should.
I agree that there's a clear attempt to give people a good beginner faction that they can't screw up that is just better than everyone else (not necessarily competitively, but on a model by model basis) and therefore good for noobs to play with, that feel like generic sci-fi heroes. But there was no reason to do that as a new unit range that replaced the entire army. The reason Primaris are Primaris and not just Updated Marines is to get people rebuying their armies.
Yes.
Agreed. I am agreeing with you. You see the part where I used all the words like "Absolutely 100%' and "Definitely" in my reply?
Yeah, the genericness of primaris is more in their fixed loadouts and the blandness of their fluff, not in the designs themselves.
Space marines are pretty bland and generic too, what gives them their fluff is all the special chapter stuff thrown on top of the normal generic design. Primaris lack that stuff because they are designed to be easily shoe-horned into every space marine faction. No need for special Space Wolf / Dark Angel / Blood Angel / etc kits, they're designed without any of the special stuff that makes the various factions distinctive.
Everyone who wants to play space Marines either already has the army or could get one very cheaply second-hand. Games workshop was essentially a victim of their own success with how prolific space Marines were.
In the situation where tactical marines are removed entirely from the marine range and the codices going forward, then tacticals could be used as stand ins for Intercessors.
One would just have to keep things consistant; all Intercessors in the army are tactical models that meet basic wsywig - a bolt rifle, or a bolt pistol & chainsword. It would look odd(possibly confusing) if one Int-squad was primaris models and another was tactical models.
Probably get away with Scouts as Reavers if sticking to bolt-pistols and combat knives.
BlaxicanX wrote: Everyone who wants to play space Marines either already has the army or could get one very cheaply second-hand. Games workshop was essentially a victim of their own success with how prolific space Marines were.
I believe this too. But I also believe they could have simply upscaled the models themselves in the way that they did the Chaos Marines, and people would have gone for those as well. GW overdid it with pumping all the stats, etc. Imo, totally unnecessary.
Yeah,, intercessors are basically space marines without the heavy/special weapons.
So where is the big distinction between "other generic sci-fi" and "40k" hiding then? is it in the Lascannon? The Plasma Gun? The Rocket Launcher? The Heavy Bolter? Never heard of any other sci fi settings that had weapons like those, no sir.../s
I hear this all the time and I kind of chuckle at it. It's like when someone makes fun of the original 80's/90's American action movie stars like Arnold and Sly Stalone for "being such cliches" while completely missing the fact that they were so good at what they did that they are the REASON those things became so cliche to begin with. lol
For marines - you can arguably see some Star Wars/Storm Trooper influence in their helmets, but after that, most of the armor design is coming from traditional suits of plate mail armor. This is, in part where the "knights in space" thing comes from. There are quite a few sci-fi armor designs that came along after the Space Marines that borrowed from/expanded on that design (Star Craft is a good example), and I think, because of this, people look back and go - oh yeah - Space Marines - they're generic sci-fi, but that's not really accurate IMO.
Admittedly, if you look at more modern sci-fi, the trend has been towards complexity. Lots of detail, lots of fiddly bits, but I don't think a lot of those styles will stand the text of time, and I also don't think they would work as well for miniatures.
40K didn't originate the 'knights in space' cliche, though. I mean, check out the 1984 cover art to Armor by John Steakley:
I'd also argue that when you get into Primaris armor, there isn't a whole lot there that's coming from medieval design. They don't have the throwback 'beakie' helms as standard anymore, and the comically oversized pauldrons and greaves that define their look don't have any clear historical inspiration. When sci-fi uses those specific elements, it's likely coming directly or indirectly from 40K; but generic power armor as a whole predates 40K, and 40K is a perpetuator of cliches in that regard as much as it is an originator.
As far as Starcraft is concerned, I think there actually is a legitimate case to be made that GW was influenced by Starcraft in their Tyranid designs- the 3rd Ed Tyranid revamp is much closer to the Zerg than the 2nd Ed (pre-Starcraft) range it replaced.
Not at GW stores, and not at events. You can use 100-for-$10 brown plastic WWII soldiers to be guardsmen too in garagehammer if you want. GW has very carefully made primaris just different enough from the oldmarine kits to not be effectively interchangeable. Because again, the whole point is to get you to replace your oldmarines, not to use them as "counts as" for the new ones.
Icegoat wrote: Why? Why didnt they just make new marine models but properly sized?
Because it would have cost them as much to develop, produce and distribute those properly sized Space Marines than producing new, never seen or used before Space Marines. The former would have made significantly less sales than the later because man players, especially those with well painted models, would not replace their old models for the new ones. This isn't very financially smart. The other problem is associated with bloat and rule design. You can replace old models and make profit, but it helps to motivate players to do so by adding new units to an existing line of model. The Space Marine line was very bloated with little new niches available making the rule design process extremely lengthy and upkeep space in stores and depo more difficult and expansive. The judged that keeping the old marines as is or just changing them to a new size would be less profitable long and medium term for their game system and their company than rebooting the Space Marines. Was it a good business and gameplay decision? I would say that GW was proven right. They made a lot of money with the Primaris line of model and their gameplay seems to be just appreciated if not even more liked than before. The only downplay was that they might have damaged the artistic quality of their IP which is a main driver of the fidelity of their consummer base.
Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff came much, much later.
40K didn't originate the 'knights in space' cliche, though. I mean, check out the 1984 cover art to Armor by John Steakley:
That's the copy I have
No swords in that book though. It's laser rifles, missile barrages and when those are out, just armored fists. The cover art isn't necessarily the armor described in the book either anyways. Felix's armor as a scout was black, not chrome
If anything. . . the old school Tyranid Warriors are actually more like that book describes the Ants. Three body segments, standing upright.
Blizzard definitely ripped off GW for a lot of its designs, but it's also true as someone else pointed out that GW has ripped them off back. Tyranids became very clearly and intentionally more zerg-like in design after the release of SC.
tauist wrote: Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff cme much, much later.
That beakie helmet and studded shoulder pad are really strong knight influences. If not actual knights, at least the movie Excalibur, haha.
tauist wrote: Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff cme much, much later.
That beakie helmet and studded shoulder pad are really strong knight influences. If not actual knights, at least the movie Excalibur, haha.
Interesting. I seem to recall a blurry memory from my youth where I coulda sworn I saw the Mk VI armour in a morning cartoon episode of Robotech anime on Sky Channel. I've been trying to find the image ever since, but I'd need access to old all those old Robotech series episodes to do that.
40K didn't originate the 'knights in space' cliche, though. I mean, check out the 1984 cover art to Armor by John Steakley:
I didn't say they originated it ... just that Space Marines, as a concept, are not and were not "generic scifi".
I'd also argue that when you get into Primaris armor, there isn't a whole lot there that's coming from medieval design. They don't have the throwback 'beakie' helms as standard anymore, and the comically oversized pauldrons and greaves that define their look don't have any clear historical inspiration. When sci-fi uses those specific elements, it's likely coming directly or indirectly from 40K; but generic power armor as a whole predates 40K, and 40K is a perpetuator of cliches in that regard as much as it is an originator.
? The Primaris power armour is still nearly identical in most cases to the OG power armor. Which was taken from suits of plate armor. The influence is still there and still pretty clear. If your only frame of reference for that type of armor is the "beak" helmet then I get the confusion, but yeah, you can still see the plate-mail influence.
As far as Starcraft is concerned, I think there actually is a legitimate case to be made that GW was influenced by Starcraft in their Tyranid designs- the 3rd Ed Tyranid revamp is much closer to the Zerg than the 2nd Ed (pre-Starcraft) range it replaced.
No. The thread was arguing that the ORGINAL marines came from Starcraft lol. Blizzard themselves have said that 40k played heavily as an influence into the designs of a lot Starcraft stuff. I think it's pretty fair to say that stuff in turn inspired GW designers on their next rounds of things (especially in the 'nid revamp you point out, and I would also argue that you can see some influence in the Inceptor armor), but it's a far cry from haveing "stolen" it. So many people don't know/understand how this type of thing works ... They just see the things that came AFTER 40k but were clearly inspired by it, and just go oh yeah "generic Scifi".
Yeah, not like the totally unique and original Land Raider that we definitely didn't wholly copy/paste from judge dredd no sirree
The original Land Raider? You mean the one they pretty openly based off of WW1 tanks? That one? lol
My question was: Where in the distinction between Oldmarine Thing (Tactical Marine) and Newmarine thing (intercessor) was the "original 40k-ness" swapped for "generic sci-fi ness"?
My point was that 40k was never "generic" and that the Primaris themselves are also not generic. It's a unfair critique imo.
tauist wrote: Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff cme much, much later.
That beakie helmet and studded shoulder pad are really strong knight influences. If not actual knights, at least the movie Excalibur, haha.
Interesting. I seem to recall a blurry memory from my youth where I coulda sworn I saw the Mk VI armour in a morning cartoon episode of Robotech anime on Sky Channel. I've been trying to find the image ever since, but I'd need access to old all those old Robotech series episodes to do that.
Coulda happened, for sure. If you can find it I'd love to see it.
First things first: nobody killed Space Marines, least of all Games Workshop. Unless I missed something, and agents of GW kicked in every SM collectors front door last night and burned their models all around the globe. In the real world, OldMarines are still around and sold by GW, supported by current rules, and nothing will change in either regard in the near future.
Sooner or later there will be a day when GW officially stops to sell the older range of SM models, as well as move their rules to Legends (i.e. no longer support OldMarines at all). Only then will anybody not willing to buy into Primaris and keep playing with "OldMarines only!!!" have a legitimate complaint - we are not there yet. And even then those people can still either use Legends rules in the (then current) edition ruleset, or continue to play an older edition.
The only one thing I wonder how GW will get around is this: once OldMarines are no longer sold, how are people supposed to play any scenario before the arrival of Primaris? That is 10000 years of SM background no longer accessible...
My point was that 40k was never "generic" and that the Primaris themselves are also not generic. It's a unfair critique imo.
Here's what I'll say about the Primaris bit, and the reason I find them dissapointing froma design standpoint. They're clearly an evolution of the basic Marine armor style that we've come to know and love(or not). But the additional details they've brought to it in an effort to "modernize" it, are themselves quite generic sci-fi. Little circular servos, Tau/anime winglets, LED-looking lights. While the original Space Marine designs are this glorious mishmash of genres and influences, the new ones are pretty basic, and featuring details you'd find on pinterest pages devoted to sci-fi armors, etc. There's just not a lot of fire to them, conceptually.
Understandably so, btw. GW wants a predictable seller and they made one. But it is pretty predictable stuff, aesthetically.
I'd also argue that when you get into Primaris armor, there isn't a whole lot there that's coming from medieval design. They don't have the throwback 'beakie' helms as standard anymore, and the comically oversized pauldrons and greaves that define their look don't have any clear historical inspiration. When sci-fi uses those specific elements, it's likely coming directly or indirectly from 40K; but generic power armor as a whole predates 40K, and 40K is a perpetuator of cliches in that regard as much as it is an originator.
? The Primaris power armour is still nearly identical in most cases to the OG power armor. Which was taken from suits of plate armor. The influence is still there and still pretty clear. If your only frame of reference for that type of armor is the "beak" helmet then I get the confusion, but yeah, you can still see the plate-mail influence...
The major distinguishing features of the Mk.X armour are the extended collar (which you'll find on Mk.VIII armour, most visibly in the Deathwatch kit) which resembles a plate armor component called a "bevor" (a component attached to the neck that goes up over the face to present a neck with no gap between plates at the top of the cuirass/bottom of the helm), and the knee-fin (the knee in plate armour is called a "poleyn" and you do get protruding extended bits from knees, but there isn't a specific name for it). Pretty much all the rest is just truescaled Mk.VII with a Mk.IV helmet. I'd concur that Primaris armour is pretty much exactly as inspired by plate armour as the rest of power armour, especially given the faulds and the rondels we've started getting on Indomitus models.
There's just not a lot of fire to them, conceptually.
That's fair. I've not seen the "Tau style widgets" you mention, but yeah, as an evolution they are fairly minor in that regard. That's why I keep going back to "why didn't we just say these are true-scale marines". I could kind of see it at first. With those plain looking Intercessors sitting next to my "blinged out" traditional marines (but NOT my RTB01 marines lol), you could see a cool story developing where you had the OG marines praying to the Big E, ect and these new guys who are all about war and are not, in any way, interested in "hearing the good news" as it were. lol
This set up an interesting dichotomy where you had what Guilliman originally intended the Marines to be post-Codex Astartes (in the Primaris), and what they actually became after he was put into suspended animation. Lots of cool story lines and potential ideas suggested there, but if we're now advancing the timeline and saying "yeah, even the Primaris are now blinged out with holy relics, etc (as per some of the models in Indomitus), then yeah, I'm back to "Why aren't they just true-scale marines".
yukishiro1 wrote:But this is just a silly argument. Nobody can ever force you to buy anything. Those example aren't the same because if you have old sisters squads you can continue to use them as the new sisters or CSM squads (not that anybody uses CSM). You can't use tacs as intercessors.
You can. But, more importantly, you don't have to right now, because Tactical Marines are still a thing in game!
Get back to me when you literally don't have a datasheet for Tacticals. I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm not clairvoyant - but I am saying that right now, any Tactical Marines are not invalidated unless you so choose them to be.
It's not some big coincidence that GW hasn't released oldmarine kits in ages.
Yeah, just like we know that Tyranids and Grey Knights are being squatted because they haven't had a new kit! Oh, you mean they're not?
Plus, aren't the Space Marine Heroes range Firstborn, and not Primaris?
the_scotsman wrote:
Kanluwen wrote: What in the Primaris range can't you use old ones as stand-ins for or easily convert?
-Incursors/Infiltrators would be tough to differentiate from Intercessors counts-as - Scouts with bolters/shotguns would be my best bet - though Incursors would be difficult -Intercessors with stalker/assault - Tacticals, and I'd just have the player tell me what variant they're armed with - let's be honest, it's not like other people don't proxy what gun they use on their Intercessors -Inceptors - Assault Marines with jump packs, I'd handwave the base sizes -Suppressors - If Devastators could have autocannons, I'd have put them here - but in the absence of that, yeah, there's no easy equivalent. -Spacemario Kart - Attack Bike -Space marine turret thingies (both the big one and the small one) - The drop turret thing? The small one, I'd say as a Tarantula, perhaps? -Repulsor Executioner - Land Raider - again, just say it's an Executioner, and I'll be good -Las-fusil eliminators - Lascannon Devastators, or just Scouts with a note saying what they are -Flamer Aggressors - Yeah, this one is pretty different. I'd generally just say "just take Terminators, and tell me what kind of Aggressor they are".
Suggestions italicised.
On another note, wouldn't it have made more sense to do it the other way around? Like, proxying OLD units as Primaris?
As far as that goes, the only real one I'm having an issue with is Assault Marines and Vanguard Vets with jump packs. I think the rest can largely find new places and roles?
I await the day they squat terminaters cos those god dam gravis looking morons are the worst models I've ever seen if they think they have even one iota of the coolness and good will of temrinatirs well that's the day I say goodbye gw.
tauist wrote: Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff cme much, much later.
That beakie helmet and studded shoulder pad are really strong knight influences. If not actual knights, at least the movie Excalibur, haha.
Interesting. I seem to recall a blurry memory from my youth where I coulda sworn I saw the Mk VI armour in a morning cartoon episode of Robotech anime on Sky Channel. I've been trying to find the image ever since, but I'd need access to old all those old Robotech series episodes to do that.
Coulda happened, for sure. If you can find it I'd love to see it.
I actually found the first season on youtube! Will bingewatch and report back, although it is possible that I'm misremembering things.. the series was made in 1985 so its possible my mind is just effing with me
Irkjoe wrote: Because whoever is making these decisions doesn't care for the traditional style of 40k. They think that a more generic scifi, disney, warhammer heroes will appeal to a broader range of people and that is worth losing older players that like the original aesthetic. And they're probably right.
To pretend that space marines ever weren't really "generic scifi" is disingenuous.
Chainsword wielding, brain eating, space-Nazis-as-the-GOOD-guys, doesn't strike me as "generic sci-fi".
You want generic sci-fi, look no further than the Repulsor.
Yeah, not like the totally unique and original Land Raider that we definitely didn't wholly copy/paste from judge dredd no sirree
My point was that 40k was never "generic" and that the Primaris themselves are also not generic. It's a unfair critique imo.
Here's what I'll say about the Primaris bit, and the reason I find them dissapointing froma design standpoint. They're clearly an evolution of the basic Marine armor style that we've come to know and love(or not). But the additional details they've brought to it in an effort to "modernize" it, are themselves quite generic sci-fi. Little circular servos, Tau/anime winglets, LED-looking lights. While the original Space Marine designs are this glorious mishmash of genres and influences, the new ones are pretty basic, and featuring details you'd find on pinterest pages devoted to sci-fi armors, etc. There's just not a lot of fire to them, conceptually.
Understandably so, btw. GW wants a predictable seller and they made one. But it is pretty predictable stuff, aesthetically.
I follow you. The once diverse universe representing both fantasy tropes in space, has become even more human centric, especially actionfigure space marine GI Joe stylings... Which, from a Pepsi fueled marketeers perspective, sure, one might see that there is a market there, for a futuristic space-Joe selling 10inch dolls to 12million kids at Christmas. Then, there are the hats, bookbags, winter gloves and boots, armor-looking jackets, actually power armored jackets (sure!)... the potential for licensing is boundless.
tauist wrote: Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff cme much, much later.
That beakie helmet and studded shoulder pad are really strong knight influences. If not actual knights, at least the movie Excalibur, haha.
Interesting. I seem to recall a blurry memory from my youth where I coulda sworn I saw the Mk VI armour in a morning cartoon episode of Robotech anime on Sky Channel. I've been trying to find the image ever since, but I'd need access to old all those old Robotech series episodes to do that.
Coulda happened, for sure. If you can find it I'd love to see it.
I actually found the first season on youtube! Will bingewatch and report back, although it is possible that I'm misremembering things.. the series was made in 1985 so its possible my mind is just effing with me
My point was that 40k was never "generic" and that the Primaris themselves are also not generic. It's a unfair critique imo.
Here's what I'll say about the Primaris bit, and the reason I find them dissapointing froma design standpoint. They're clearly an evolution of the basic Marine armor style that we've come to know and love(or not). But the additional details they've brought to it in an effort to "modernize" it, are themselves quite generic sci-fi. Little circular servos, Tau/anime winglets, LED-looking lights. While the original Space Marine designs are this glorious mishmash of genres and influences, the new ones are pretty basic, and featuring details you'd find on pinterest pages devoted to sci-fi armors, etc. There's just not a lot of fire to them, conceptually.
Understandably so, btw. GW wants a predictable seller and they made one. But it is pretty predictable stuff, aesthetically.
I follow you. The once diverse universe representing both fantasy tropes in space, has become even more human centric, especially actionfigure space marine GI Joe stylings... Which, from a Pepsi fueled marketeers perspective, sure, one might see that there is a market there, for a futuristic space-Joe selling 10inch dolls to 12million kids at Christmas. Then, there are the hats, bookbags, winter gloves and boots, armor-looking jackets, actually power armored jackets (sure!)... the potential for licensing is boundless.
We already got the bobbleheads and a bunch of other merch.
I think there is also more general unease among the GW management that the old grimdark setting is, well, too grim and dark for a Twitter activist world. The Imperium as classically envisioned is a fascist state opposed more than anything else to the expression of human individuality, on the theory that such expression leads to chaos and anarchy. It is an organization that considers diversity of thought a mortal threat to be crushed, not a strength to embrace, and that operates on the basic assumption that humans are deeply flawed beings that need to be controlled by a firm hand, not allowed to flourish according to their own desires. In short, it's completely opposed to everything about modern 21st century orthodoxy on how society should look.
I suspect there is a real concern about that for GW's suits as they try to position 40k for broader mass appeal. It's a difficult line to tread, because of course the fact that the Imperium isn't just The Good Guys (TM) is what makes the setting interesting. But I do think the general "We're The Heroes!" aesthetic of the Primaris is evidence of the general tilt of where the IP is being pushed.
I suspect there is a real concern about that for GW's suits as they try to position 40k for broader mass appeal. It's a difficult line to tread, because of course the fact that the Imperium isn't just The Good Guys (TM) is what makes the setting interesting. But I do think the general "We're The Heroes!" aesthetic of the Primaris is evidence of the general tilt of where the IP is being pushed.
I think part of the problem is that its becoming apparent that all the things that make the Imperium not "The Good Guys (TM)" are things that draw an unfortunate audience of people who see those things as reasons the Imperium ARE the good guys....
tauist wrote:Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff came much, much later.
Bingo, I long for the days of RTB-01 Beakies....except the constipated poses.
Clean & "functional".
40K - like many sci-fi games at the time - took their inspiration from films. In 1997, Starship Troopers hit the big screens and while being absolutely gawd'awful it was an instant hit for sci-fi fans. If Space Hulk was ALIENS then the Tyranid range of 3rd Edition was definitely Starship Troopers. 3rd edition instantly took to the Imperial Guard as the "troopers" and the long clawed "bugs" melded with the already Aliens-inspired tyranids, creating a new range.
tauist wrote:Its quite funny to anyone who was involved with the hobby when RTB-01 kit was the latest shiny to read this talk about primaris being too minimalistic and "tacticool" to be proper spce marines. The classic corvus armour with the umbra pattern bolters looked quite clean to me tbh. All that "knights.. IN SPACE" stuff came much, much later.
Bingo, I long for the days of RTB-01 Beakies....except the constipated poses.
Clean & "functional".
Here's my recent take with parts gathered from multiple Tactical boxes. The guns are actually the top Bolters from Rhino Mk1 kits, I had them left over from building non-rhino variants of the kit, decades ago.
Icegoat wrote: Ok ignore the great primaris lore cause apparently its superb top notch makes complete sense. How would people react if two wound 10 foot tall new elder came along? An ancient race happily living for millions of years oh wait cawl invented space elf steroids buy these new super elder. Primaris have killed any Hope's of 40k moving into other media. Just like aos did with fantasy. So far there has not been a single video game released set in age of sigmar or with primaris. It think that tells you enough. They killed their golden goose.
Primaris have only been a thing for 3 years.
Videogames take a long time to make.
GW have also posted massive consecutive profits for the last 3 years in a row that eclipse all of their previous years. If they killed their golden goose and Primaris are a disaster, how do you explain this? Has Necromunda picked up the slack?
I suspect there is a real concern about that for GW's suits as they try to position 40k for broader mass appeal. It's a difficult line to tread, because of course the fact that the Imperium isn't just The Good Guys (TM) is what makes the setting interesting. But I do think the general "We're The Heroes!" aesthetic of the Primaris is evidence of the general tilt of where the IP is being pushed.
I think part of the problem is that its becoming apparent that all the things that make the Imperium not "The Good Guys (TM)" are things that draw an unfortunate audience of people who see those things as reasons the Imperium ARE the good guys....
I think this is hitting on an extremely interesting issue where the dystopian nature of 40k is intersecting with increasingly dystopian elements of real life. To keep it light and not branch into politics; the 21st century has seen strong growth in extremist viewpoints, even stronger growth in harmful misinformation, erosion of basic democracy in many parts of the world, not to mention a rapidly accelerating deterioration of the world itself. I don't bring this up as some alarmist nonsense (humanity will deal with it) but rather to say that these are issues which are very real and very present in people's lives today. It means witnessing those same elements in 40k cuts a lot closer to home than it did last century, it makes the reality-escape element more difficult to attain.
yukishiro1 wrote:I think there is also more general unease among the GW management that the old grimdark setting is, well, too grim and dark for a Twitter activist world.
Didn't GW pretty much put out a statement (for whatever that's worth) that even though their fictional worlds were horrible and rooted in terrible regimes, they didn't agree or condone any of that IRL?
Now, as my later point goes on to say, maybe that's all hot air, but GW are aware of their position, but I don't exactly see them shying away from how awful the Imperium is. After all - those Penitent Engines looked pretty damn painful.
I suspect there is a real concern about that for GW's suits as they try to position 40k for broader mass appeal.
To hit back against this - the suits clearly don't care THAT much about being "PC", as it were, as they were more than happy to fire a BL freelancer because they called out fascist "fans".
It's a difficult line to tread, because of course the fact that the Imperium isn't just The Good Guys (TM) is what makes the setting interesting. But I do think the general "We're The Heroes!" aesthetic of the Primaris is evidence of the general tilt of where the IP is being pushed.
I don't know. Do "good guys" wear skeletons on their shields?
I don't see how the Primaris aesthetic is any more coded towards "good" than the Mark VII or VI.
Meh , gw is just in the crossfire of the recent phenomenom of online screeching from small extremeist minorities so far in their respective corner that they nearly meet again....
As for good guys wearing Skulls, actually that is nothing, old Swiss mercs were Walking around with Jesus Struck to a cross in their flag sometimes.
Then there's three prussian and later on german empire hussar Regiments wearing Skulls.
Dtd corps and other such suicidal ideological formations were not as unkown .
40k just gives it a scifi gothic Vibe and artstyle but at the End of the Day it can't escape it's Inspiration and Function as Satire of the real world.
Not Online!!! wrote: Meh , gw is just in the crossfire of the recent phenomenon of online screeching from small extremest minorities so far in their respective corner that they nearly meet again....
Not Online!!! wrote: Meh , gw is just in the crossfire of the recent phenomenon of online screeching from small extremest minorities so far in their respective corner that they nearly meet again....
I wish I could exalt this 100 times.
When truth has become worthy of exaltation people lie too much and forgot that their vis a vis is still also a Person.
yukishiro1 wrote:I think there is also more general unease among the GW management that the old grimdark setting is, well, too grim and dark for a Twitter activist world.
Didn't GW pretty much put out a statement (for whatever that's worth) that even though their fictional worlds were horrible and rooted in terrible regimes, they didn't agree or condone any of that IRL?
Now, as my later point goes on to say, maybe that's all hot air, but GW are aware of their position, but I don't exactly see them shying away from how awful the Imperium is. After all - those Penitent Engines looked pretty damn painful.
I suspect there is a real concern about that for GW's suits as they try to position 40k for broader mass appeal.
To hit back against this - the suits clearly don't care THAT much about being "PC", as it were, as they were more than happy to fire a BL freelancer because they called out fascist "fans".
It's a difficult line to tread, because of course the fact that the Imperium isn't just The Good Guys (TM) is what makes the setting interesting. But I do think the general "We're The Heroes!" aesthetic of the Primaris is evidence of the general tilt of where the IP is being pushed.
I don't know. Do "good guys" wear skeletons on their shields?
I don't see how the Primaris aesthetic is any more coded towards "good" than the Mark VII or VI.
Typically the suits don't start to care until one of these IPs ends up on someones radar.
If you look at the recent MTG/D&D stuff with the White Supremacist magic card from 1994 and the Curse of Strahd Book, it wasn't until a group on twitter started calling for changes that things actually changed. I remember having tenuous arguments about that MTG card in 2003. All of the game stores in my area back then, (Midwest) refused to even buy or sell the card due to what was known about the artist who did it. But there was little public interest back then, if you didn't play magic, you were clueless.
I imagine once GW breaks into the main market like it wants, you'll see a lot of Grimdark lore get whitewashed to help with mass market appeal. Heck, I'll argue it's already happening now. Space Marines are definitely being portrayed as "heroic" and "champions" against chaos. (I.E. Good Humans vs. Bad Humans)
yukishiro1 wrote:I think there is also more general unease among the GW management that the old grimdark setting is, well, too grim and dark for a Twitter activist world.
Didn't GW pretty much put out a statement (for whatever that's worth) that even though their fictional worlds were horrible and rooted in terrible regimes, they didn't agree or condone any of that IRL?
Now, as my later point goes on to say, maybe that's all hot air, but GW are aware of their position, but I don't exactly see them shying away from how awful the Imperium is. After all - those Penitent Engines looked pretty damn painful.
I suspect there is a real concern about that for GW's suits as they try to position 40k for broader mass appeal.
To hit back against this - the suits clearly don't care THAT much about being "PC", as it were, as they were more than happy to fire a BL freelancer because they called out fascist "fans".
It's a difficult line to tread, because of course the fact that the Imperium isn't just The Good Guys (TM) is what makes the setting interesting. But I do think the general "We're The Heroes!" aesthetic of the Primaris is evidence of the general tilt of where the IP is being pushed.
I don't know. Do "good guys" wear skeletons on their shields?
I don't see how the Primaris aesthetic is any more coded towards "good" than the Mark VII or VI.
Carrying the skeleton of a fallen hero on your storm shield seems pretty grimdark to me....but what really is grimdark anyway?
you know how to make primaris look more...grimdark? add MKIII helmets & pauldrons.
primaris kitbash really well with most of the recent marine kits and look as smooth or as gothic as you want them to be.
GW released Primaris Marines AFTER they released Super Guardsmen (Tempestus Scions), originally the Super Guardsmen were Elites choices called Stormtroopers or Kasrkin, then they were renamed to Tempestus Scions, then they got moved to the Troops slot, and are pure and simple, just BETTER Guardsmen...
In GW's eyes, the move worked, they released a new line of models, and people went with it. They then released a supplement Codex: Militarum Tempestus in 7E, and that was well received, thus creating drive for a Detachment choice for the Tempestus in 8E... Interestingly enough this was also when GW released their Primaris Space Marines...
Overall, I don't think they killed their 'Golden Goose', but that said, I don't agree with changing the lore as crazily as they have. For Guardsmen I would have been more content if they released the metal regiments in plastic instead, to coincide with the specific regiment choices. As for Marines, there really wasn't much they could do outside of 'Go Bigger', everything else had been pretty much done already.
The scale of the game has changed significantly since 3E... During 3E you had a small force, maybe a couple of transports, perhaps ONE tank, some troops, a crack Elites choice, and that was about it.
Then you start getting bigger and better units in subsequent editions; Sternguard, Kasrkin, Vehicle squadrons, etc... This drive created a need for having MORE tanks, MORE big stuff, etc... Until you have now, where we encounter Imperial Knights regularly enough that we need to build our lists for the expectation we will run into one.
They used the stormtrooper profiles, but lacked the special rules of Stormtroopers.
Also, Kasrkin were Troops in Codex: Eye of Terror (where they first got rules).
Yes, lets just ignore every single point about my post and be pedantic about a single insignificant point, just like you - strange coincidence isn't it?
I don't really care about the rest of your post though...and saying that they were an Elite choice isn't really a "single insignificant point". You lumped them in with Stormtroopers, who existed before that.
C: EoT actually established them as their own unit, and as a Troops choice to boot. Then we got the Doctrines book, which took that same concept and expanded it to anyone who took the 'Grenadiers' doctrine.
I imagine once GW breaks into the main market like it wants, you'll see a lot of Grimdark lore get whitewashed to help with mass market appeal. Heck, I'll argue it's already happening now. Space Marines are definitely being portrayed as "heroic" and "champions" against chaos. (I.E. Good Humans vs. Bad Humans)
in a universe as fethed up as 40k...good is relative. Tau are "good"(sorry couldnt type that w a straight face, bout as evil as they come), nids are good(as in not evil or w malice, they're just really, really hungry), and orks are good(they just want a good scrum).
Anyone that has ever read anything about the imperium is either;
(a) fooling themselves into thinking they're good
or
(b) doesnt have a firm grasp of what good is
or
(c) likes how fethed up and hypocritical the Imperium has become
Redemptors literally burn their pilots out, Brazen Drakes were guilty of having the wrong geneseed(albeit unknowingly), and half of the ecclesiastical organizations want Guiliman dead(a literal son of BiggiE. cant get more grimdark than that!).
My Salamanders Astartes and Primaris will continue to serve the Imperium until they no longer can...which will be for all intents and purposes into perpetuity.
They used the stormtrooper profiles, but lacked the special rules of Stormtroopers.
Also, Kasrkin were Troops in Codex: Eye of Terror (where they first got rules).
Is that like "Primaris are not Space Marines"?
It's more like saying "Sternguard are Tactical Marines". They are...but they're also not?
There's a reason why I specifically call it out as related to Codex: Eye of Terror. It's the only place we have actually gotten, a one hundred percent legitimately named "Kasrkin Squad".
Kanluwen wrote: I don't really care about the rest of your post though...and saying that they were an Elite choice isn't really a "single insignificant point". You lumped them in with Stormtroopers, who existed before that.
C: EoT actually established them as their own unit, and as a Troops choice to boot. Then we got the Doctrines book, which took that same concept and expanded it to anyone who took the 'Grenadiers' doctrine.
I'll just post it again, to irritate you - I'm a right bastard like that.
GW released Primaris Marines AFTER they released Super Guardsmen (Tempestus Scions), originally the Super Guardsmen were Elites choices called Stormtroopers or Kasrkin, then they were renamed to Tempestus Scions, then they got moved to the Troops slot, and are pure and simple, just BETTER Guardsmen...
In GW's eyes, the move worked, they released a new line of models, and people went with it. They then released a supplement Codex: Militarum Tempestus in 7E, and that was well received, thus creating drive for a Detachment choice for the Tempestus in 8E... Interestingly enough this was also when GW released their Primaris Space Marines...
Overall, I don't think they killed their 'Golden Goose', but that said, I don't agree with changing the lore as crazily as they have. For Guardsmen I would have been more content if they released the metal regiments in plastic instead, to coincide with the specific regiment choices. As for Marines, there really wasn't much they could do outside of 'Go Bigger', everything else had been pretty much done already.
The scale of the game has changed significantly since 3E... During 3E you had a small force, maybe a couple of transports, perhaps ONE tank, some troops, a crack Elites choice, and that was about it.
Then you start getting bigger and better units in subsequent editions; Sternguard, Kasrkin, Vehicle squadrons, etc... This drive created a need for having MORE tanks, MORE big stuff, etc... Until you have now, where we encounter Imperial Knights regularly enough that we need to build our lists for the expectation we will run into one.
As GW's plastic technology got better and better, and more and more things made the conversion from metal to plastic (and ignoring that whole FineCost debacle), I always thought that GW would eventually paint themselves into a corner when it came to Marine releases. I mean, there are only so many times you can re-cut the Tac/Dev/Assault sprues without it becoming gratuitous. For a while they added to the Marine range with units that had "always been there", just slightly off camera (Centurions, the Marine aircraft) but even that would run out of steam eventually. So they had to do something.
Unfortunately, GW's concepts are often left disappointed by their execution.
So we got Cawl's super-Marines that have been in stasis for 10,000 years, along with a host of super-hover vehicles that are apparently easy to manufacture en-mass. Yes, it was cynical, yes, it was ham-handed, but really what else could they do?
I suspect there is a real concern about that for GW's suits as they try to position 40k for broader mass appeal. It's a difficult line to tread, because of course the fact that the Imperium isn't just The Good Guys (TM) is what makes the setting interesting. But I do think the general "We're The Heroes!" aesthetic of the Primaris is evidence of the general tilt of where the IP is being pushed.
I think part of the problem is that its becoming apparent that all the things that make the Imperium not "The Good Guys (TM)" are things that draw an unfortunate audience of people who see those things as reasons the Imperium ARE the good guys....
I think this is hitting on an extremely interesting issue where the dystopian nature of 40k is intersecting with increasingly dystopian elements of real life. To keep it light and not branch into politics; the 21st century has seen strong growth in extremist viewpoints, even stronger growth in harmful misinformation, erosion of basic democracy in many parts of the world, not to mention a rapidly accelerating deterioration of the world itself. I don't bring this up as some alarmist nonsense (humanity will deal with it) but rather to say that these are issues which are very real and very present in people's lives today. It means witnessing those same elements in 40k cuts a lot closer to home than it did last century, it makes the reality-escape element more difficult to attain.
I saw a guy today on FB complain that one of the SM biker(I guess sgt?) is not wearing a helmet. And that he was angry as it set a bad example to his kid whom he is hobbying with and whome he alwyas explained he must wear a helmet when wearing his bcycle. I kid you not...
Nobody's arguing the Imperium used to be the good guys. In fact the whole point of the observation is that the positioning of Primaris as more conventional heroes is at odds with the 40k universe as it has evolved up until Primaris. A lot of this can be laid at the feet of Girlyman and his lack of fleshing out as an interesting character beyond simply being Super Hero Man, but he's so closely associated with them that he's dragged them along with him.
They feel like the brighter, friendlier, less intimidating, more vanilla cousins. Space Marines have always been brighter and more vanilla than the rest of the Imperium, but Primaris take that a step further.
A bolder IP owner - the GW of twenty years ago, for example - would have used Primaris to double down on the grimdark by positioning them as flawed in equal measure to their power, more powerful but also more dangerous and unstable than oldmarines, and they would have used that to explore the old defining tension in the Imperium between power and order versus morality and humanity. Instead we got primaris that are just better in every way than oldmarines, literal ubermensch as designed by someone without a sense of history or irony. And then they immediately started converting most of the old characters too, rather than using them to play off.
There are little hints here and there of this more interesting approach, but they're very much only little hints. What could have been an opportunity to explore the defining tension of the Imperium - the difficulty of fighting monsters without becoming one - instead ends up undermining whole idea by Mary Sueing itself out of the problem.
I imagine once GW breaks into the main market like it wants, you'll see a lot of Grimdark lore get whitewashed to help with mass market appeal. Heck, I'll argue it's already happening now. Space Marines are definitely being portrayed as "heroic" and "champions" against chaos. (I.E. Good Humans vs. Bad Humans)
in a universe as fethed up as 40k...good is relative. Tau are "good"(sorry couldnt type that w a straight face, bout as evil as they come), nids are good(as in not evil or w malice, they're just really, really hungry), and orks are good(they just want a good scrum).
Anyone that has ever read anything about the imperium is either;
(a) fooling themselves into thinking they're good
or
(b) doesnt have a firm grasp of what good is
or
(c) likes how fethed up and hypocritical the Imperium has become
Redemptors literally burn their pilots out, Brazen Drakes were guilty of having the wrong geneseed(albeit unknowingly), and half of the ecclesiastical organizations want Guiliman dead(a literal son of BiggiE. cant get more grimdark than that!).
My Salamanders Astartes and Primaris will continue to serve the Imperium until they no longer can...which will be for all intents and purposes into perpetuity.
I think you missed the point. This is true.
I'm saying once GW get big enough, they'll abandon this and push for a more "Humanity good guys, Chaos bad guys, Aliens now mostly okay" in order to appeal to the larger market. It's not enough to say "IP x is a parody of Fascisim." Todays youth just do not want to even have it anywhere near their hobbies.
I suspect there is a real concern about that for GW's suits as they try to position 40k for broader mass appeal. It's a difficult line to tread, because of course the fact that the Imperium isn't just The Good Guys (TM) is what makes the setting interesting. But I do think the general "We're The Heroes!" aesthetic of the Primaris is evidence of the general tilt of where the IP is being pushed.
I think part of the problem is that its becoming apparent that all the things that make the Imperium not "The Good Guys (TM)" are things that draw an unfortunate audience of people who see those things as reasons the Imperium ARE the good guys....
I think this is hitting on an extremely interesting issue where the dystopian nature of 40k is intersecting with increasingly dystopian elements of real life. To keep it light and not branch into politics; the 21st century has seen strong growth in extremist viewpoints, even stronger growth in harmful misinformation, erosion of basic democracy in many parts of the world, not to mention a rapidly accelerating deterioration of the world itself. I don't bring this up as some alarmist nonsense (humanity will deal with it) but rather to say that these are issues which are very real and very present in people's lives today. It means witnessing those same elements in 40k cuts a lot closer to home than it did last century, it makes the reality-escape element more difficult to attain.
I saw a guy today on FB complain that one of the SM biker(I guess sgt?) is not wearing a helmet. And that he was angry as it set a bad example to his kid whom he is hobbying with and whome he alwyas explained he must wear a helmet when wearing his bcycle.
I kid you not...
I believe you.
About 3 years ago PETA tried to get GW to remove the plastic fur on some of their miniatures...
Yes. They actually did that.
wtf is wrong w people, genetically modified super soldier who can take shots to the dome, has 2 hearts, & can literally rip a human in half, needs to wear a helmet????
I mean, if your kid cant make the distinction between humans(real) and post humans(imaginary), wtf have you been teaching them
Kanluwen wrote: [You just don't want to buy anything. And that's fine. But don't pretend otherwise.
Don't call me a liar. I don't even know what you're rejecting, but I'm not making excuses. I don't want to replace my army, and feel that if I try to make a hybrid army I suspect (as others do) that the old collection will get squatted and I'll be left in an edition with two collections that don't fit. I dislike their tactics for pushing more models and my dislike of said tactics has influenced my buying choices. I don't have infinite hobby cash or time, so to that degree no I don't want to buy something that displeases me, but the same can be said for any number of other things while I buy other gaming stuff: not buying is a result, not a motivation.
Not Online!!! wrote: Meh , gw is just in the crossfire of the recent phenomenon of online screeching from small extremest minorities so far in their respective corner that they nearly meet again....
I wish I could exalt this 100 times.
When truth has become worthy of exaltation people lie too much and forgot that their vis a vis is still also a Person.
Um, yeah. That is not a new thing, online or in real life for that matter. Unfortunately.
I imagine once GW breaks into the main market like it wants, you'll see a lot of Grimdark lore get whitewashed to help with mass market appeal. Heck, I'll argue it's already happening now. Space Marines are definitely being portrayed as "heroic" and "champions" against chaos. (I.E. Good Humans vs. Bad Humans)
in a universe as fethed up as 40k...good is relative. Tau are "good"(sorry couldnt type that w a straight face, bout as evil as they come), nids are good(as in not evil or w malice, they're just really, really hungry), and orks are good(they just want a good scrum).
Anyone that has ever read anything about the imperium is either;
(a) fooling themselves into thinking they're good
or
(b) doesnt have a firm grasp of what good is
or
(c) likes how fethed up and hypocritical the Imperium has become
Redemptors literally burn their pilots out, Brazen Drakes were guilty of having the wrong geneseed(albeit unknowingly), and half of the ecclesiastical organizations want Guiliman dead(a literal son of BiggiE. cant get more grimdark than that!).
My Salamanders Astartes and Primaris will continue to serve the Imperium until they no longer can...which will be for all intents and purposes into perpetuity.
I think you missed the point. This is true.
I'm saying once GW get big enough, they'll abandon this and push for a more "Humanity good guys, Chaos bad guys, Aliens now mostly okay" in order to appeal to the larger market. It's not enough to say "IP x is a parody of Fascisim." Todays youth just do not want to even have it anywhere near their hobbies.
Considering they are getting it in their government instead can you blame them?
I saw a guy today on FB complain that one of the SM biker(I guess sgt?) is not wearing a helmet. And that he was angry as it set a bad example to his kid whom he is hobbying with and whome he alwyas explained he must wear a helmet when wearing his bcycle.
I kid you not...
I bet he has no idea what his kid does when he's out of LOS.
Also, has the idiot thought about the rest of this hobby & what message it's sending? Look! A game about shooting & stabbing each other, worshiping demons, & genocide. But remember, if you ride a bike you must wear your helmet...
I saw a guy today on FB complain that one of the SM biker(I guess sgt?) is not wearing a helmet. And that he was angry as it set a bad example to his kid whom he is hobbying with and whome he alwyas explained he must wear a helmet when wearing his bcycle. I kid you not...
I bet he has no idea what his kid does when he's out of LOS.
Also, has the idiot thought about the rest of this hobby & what message it's sending? Look! A game about shooting & stabbing each other, worshiping demons, & genocide. But remember, if you ride a bike you must wear your helmet...
Yeah its no so much that, is that he is literally riding into battle on a motorbike against wierd demons, bloodthirsty aliens that will flay him alive just for gaks and giggles and other that will suck out his bone marrow coz they hungry. The absurdity of him having his helmet on his belt and not on his head as some sort of priority is simply hilarious.
If your kid cant distinguish between reality and make believe nonsense that's on you and not the people making make believe nonsesne.. I mean does he also think GW is promoting purging heretics with the holy fire of the emperor? Lol.. It was juts soo stupid it irked me. If its such a big deal just stick one of the intercessor heads on him lol.. But thats what happens when everyone gets a voice and all of a sudden people want everything to be bubblewrapped in case they stub their toe...
Darnok wrote: Only then will anybody not willing to buy into Primaris and keep playing with "OldMarines only!!!" have a legitimate complaint - we are not there yet. And even then those people can still either use Legends rules in the (then current) edition ruleset, or continue to play an older edition.
The only one thing I wonder how GW will get around is this: once OldMarines are no longer sold, how are people supposed to play any scenario before the arrival of Primaris? That is 10000 years of SM background no longer accessible...
I disagree. Legitimate complaint is not only that real true marines have been poorly replaced by restartes nuweenies, but done so in bad faith and with a terrible rules edition at the same time.
GW is no longer a games and model company. It is a media company. They sell images. Rumors. Slogans e.g. #new40k.
Nobody wanted new.
About the lost 10,000 years of drama...
Exactly.
See legitimate complaint above.
Kanluwen wrote: [You just don't want to buy anything. And that's fine. But don't pretend otherwise.
Don't call me a liar. I don't even know what you're rejecting, but I'm not making excuses. I don't want to replace my army, and feel that if I try to make a hybrid army I suspect (as others do) that the old collection will get squatted and I'll be left in an edition with two collections that don't fit. I dislike their tactics for pushing more models and my dislike of said tactics has influenced my buying choices. I don't have infinite hobby cash or time, so to that degree no I don't want to buy something that displeases me, but the same can be said for any number of other things while I buy other gaming stuff: not buying is a result, not a motivation.
Exalted.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: As GW's plastic technology got better and better, and more and more things made the conversion from metal to plastic (and ignoring that whole FineCost debacle), I always thought that GW would eventually paint themselves into a corner when it came to Marine releases. I mean, there are only so many times you can re-cut the Tac/Dev/Assault sprues without it becoming gratuitous. For a while they added to the Marine range with units that had "always been there", just slightly off camera (Centurions, the Marine aircraft) but even that would run out of steam eventually. So they had to do something.
Unfortunately, GW's concepts are often left disappointed by their execution.
So we got Cawl's super-Marines that have been in stasis for 10,000 years, along with a host of super-hover vehicles that are apparently easy to manufacture en-mass.
Yes, it was cynical, yes, it was ham-handed, but really what else could they do?
Centurions are terrible in every way.
They could and should have simply updated the line with true scale sculpts and updated the other races giving all more balanced attention... I would have slowly collected new models over the years and lots of new hobbyists would start lifelong hobby with hand me down OG marine units as old guys like me replaced theirs with new models...
But. They went with GI Joe in speehz...and I will not be collecting more GW models ... well, as many models anyways.
Not Online!!! wrote: Meh , gw is just in the crossfire of the recent phenomenon of online screeching from small extremest minorities so far in their respective corner that they nearly meet again....
I wish I could exalt this 100 times.
When truth has become worthy of exaltation people lie too much and forgot that their vis a vis is still also a Person.
Um, yeah. That is not a new thing, online or in real life for that matter. Unfortunately.
I imagine once GW breaks into the main market like it wants, you'll see a lot of Grimdark lore get whitewashed to help with mass market appeal. Heck, I'll argue it's already happening now. Space Marines are definitely being portrayed as "heroic" and "champions" against chaos. (I.E. Good Humans vs. Bad Humans)
in a universe as fethed up as 40k...good is relative. Tau are "good"(sorry couldnt type that w a straight face, bout as evil as they come), nids are good(as in not evil or w malice, they're just really, really hungry), and orks are good(they just want a good scrum).
Anyone that has ever read anything about the imperium is either;
(a) fooling themselves into thinking they're good
or
(b) doesnt have a firm grasp of what good is
or
(c) likes how fethed up and hypocritical the Imperium has become
Redemptors literally burn their pilots out, Brazen Drakes were guilty of having the wrong geneseed(albeit unknowingly), and half of the ecclesiastical organizations want Guiliman dead(a literal son of BiggiE. cant get more grimdark than that!).
My Salamanders Astartes and Primaris will continue to serve the Imperium until they no longer can...which will be for all intents and purposes into perpetuity.
I think you missed the point. This is true.
I'm saying once GW get big enough, they'll abandon this and push for a more "Humanity good guys, Chaos bad guys, Aliens now mostly okay" in order to appeal to the larger market. It's not enough to say "IP x is a parody of Fascisim." Todays youth just do not want to even have it anywhere near their hobbies.
Considering they are getting it in their government instead can you blame them?
In which government?
I am sorry but have you even had a real organized fascisct Party near you?
Not Online!!! wrote: Meh , gw is just in the crossfire of the recent phenomenon of online screeching from small extremest minorities so far in their respective corner that they nearly meet again....
I wish I could exalt this 100 times.
When truth has become worthy of exaltation people lie too much and forgot that their vis a vis is still also a Person.
Um, yeah. That is not a new thing, online or in real life for that matter. Unfortunately.
I imagine once GW breaks into the main market like it wants, you'll see a lot of Grimdark lore get whitewashed to help with mass market appeal. Heck, I'll argue it's already happening now. Space Marines are definitely being portrayed as "heroic" and "champions" against chaos. (I.E. Good Humans vs. Bad Humans)
in a universe as fethed up as 40k...good is relative. Tau are "good"(sorry couldnt type that w a straight face, bout as evil as they come), nids are good(as in not evil or w malice, they're just really, really hungry), and orks are good(they just want a good scrum).
Anyone that has ever read anything about the imperium is either; (a) fooling themselves into thinking they're good or (b) doesnt have a firm grasp of what good is or (c) likes how fethed up and hypocritical the Imperium has become
Redemptors literally burn their pilots out, Brazen Drakes were guilty of having the wrong geneseed(albeit unknowingly), and half of the ecclesiastical organizations want Guiliman dead(a literal son of BiggiE. cant get more grimdark than that!).
My Salamanders Astartes and Primaris will continue to serve the Imperium until they no longer can...which will be for all intents and purposes into perpetuity.
I think you missed the point. This is true.
I'm saying once GW get big enough, they'll abandon this and push for a more "Humanity good guys, Chaos bad guys, Aliens now mostly okay" in order to appeal to the larger market. It's not enough to say "IP x is a parody of Fascisim." Todays youth just do not want to even have it anywhere near their hobbies.
Considering they are getting it in their government instead can you blame them?
Nah, I have accepted this is the way things are going to be for a while. It'll calm down eventually.
Darnok wrote: Only then will anybody not willing to buy into Primaris and keep playing with "OldMarines only!!!" have a legitimate complaint - we are not there yet. And even then those people can still either use Legends rules in the (then current) edition ruleset, or continue to play an older edition.
The only one thing I wonder how GW will get around is this: once OldMarines are no longer sold, how are people supposed to play any scenario before the arrival of Primaris? That is 10000 years of SM background no longer accessible...
I disagree. Legitimate complaint is not only that real true marines have been poorly replaced by restartes nuweenies, but done so in bad faith and with a terrible rules edition at the same time.
GW is no longer a games and model company. It is a media company. They sell images. Rumors. Slogans e.g. #new40k.
Nobody wanted new.
About the lost 10,000 years of drama... Exactly. See legitimate complaint above.
Kanluwen wrote: [You just don't want to buy anything. And that's fine. But don't pretend otherwise.
Don't call me a liar. I don't even know what you're rejecting, but I'm not making excuses. I don't want to replace my army, and feel that if I try to make a hybrid army I suspect (as others do) that the old collection will get squatted and I'll be left in an edition with two collections that don't fit. I dislike their tactics for pushing more models and my dislike of said tactics has influenced my buying choices. I don't have infinite hobby cash or time, so to that degree no I don't want to buy something that displeases me, but the same can be said for any number of other things while I buy other gaming stuff: not buying is a result, not a motivation.
Exalted.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: As GW's plastic technology got better and better, and more and more things made the conversion from metal to plastic (and ignoring that whole FineCost debacle), I always thought that GW would eventually paint themselves into a corner when it came to Marine releases. I mean, there are only so many times you can re-cut the Tac/Dev/Assault sprues without it becoming gratuitous. For a while they added to the Marine range with units that had "always been there", just slightly off camera (Centurions, the Marine aircraft) but even that would run out of steam eventually. So they had to do something.
Unfortunately, GW's concepts are often left disappointed by their execution.
So we got Cawl's super-Marines that have been in stasis for 10,000 years, along with a host of super-hover vehicles that are apparently easy to manufacture en-mass. Yes, it was cynical, yes, it was ham-handed, but really what else could they do?
Centurions are terrible in every way.
They could and should have simply updated the line with true scale sculpts and updated the other races giving all more balanced attention... I would have slowly collected new models over the years and lots of new hobbyists would start lifelong hobby with hand me down OG marine units as old guys like me replaced theirs with new models...
But. They went with GI Joe in speehz...and I will not be collecting more GW models ... well, as many models anyways.
But you're ignoring the other half of the coin. Everything GW has done since the launch of 8th has been to restructure the armies, the game and most importantly to create copyrightable content. It wasn't simply enough to call them "Space Marines." Changing their very fabric was essential so that they could then apply for trademarks and copyrights to protect their IP.
Also, come on.
8th saved the game, was the best edition since I began in 6th and 9th so far looks great on paper. Unfortunately I can't play atm because of Covid. But to say that it was all done in "bad faith" is total bologna.
If your kid cant distinguish between reality and make believe nonsense that's on you and not the people making make believe nonsesne.. I mean does he also think GW is promoting purging heretics with the holy fire of the emperor? Lol..
Well I don't not how to say this, but twice a year we have big nationalist gathering in our capitol, and you would probably be suprised how many of them have purge it with fire on their shirts or other GW lore inspired stuff. And the people that join those demonstrations are 12 years, but adults.
Last year there was around 200k people just in the capital, and other cities and towns had their own too. So you don't have to be a child to think that what the empire does has a translation to real life or that it makes sense.
Not Online!!! wrote: Meh , gw is just in the crossfire of the recent phenomenon of online screeching from small extremest minorities so far in their respective corner that they nearly meet again....
I wish I could exalt this 100 times.
When truth has become worthy of exaltation people lie too much and forgot that their vis a vis is still also a Person.
Um, yeah. That is not a new thing, online or in real life for that matter. Unfortunately.
I imagine once GW breaks into the main market like it wants, you'll see a lot of Grimdark lore get whitewashed to help with mass market appeal. Heck, I'll argue it's already happening now. Space Marines are definitely being portrayed as "heroic" and "champions" against chaos. (I.E. Good Humans vs. Bad Humans)
in a universe as fethed up as 40k...good is relative. Tau are "good"(sorry couldnt type that w a straight face, bout as evil as they come), nids are good(as in not evil or w malice, they're just really, really hungry), and orks are good(they just want a good scrum).
Anyone that has ever read anything about the imperium is either;
(a) fooling themselves into thinking they're good
or
(b) doesnt have a firm grasp of what good is
or
(c) likes how fethed up and hypocritical the Imperium has become
Redemptors literally burn their pilots out, Brazen Drakes were guilty of having the wrong geneseed(albeit unknowingly), and half of the ecclesiastical organizations want Guiliman dead(a literal son of BiggiE. cant get more grimdark than that!).
My Salamanders Astartes and Primaris will continue to serve the Imperium until they no longer can...which will be for all intents and purposes into perpetuity.
I think you missed the point. This is true.
I'm saying once GW get big enough, they'll abandon this and push for a more "Humanity good guys, Chaos bad guys, Aliens now mostly okay" in order to appeal to the larger market. It's not enough to say "IP x is a parody of Fascisim." Todays youth just do not want to even have it anywhere near their hobbies.
Considering they are getting it in their government instead can you blame them?
In which government?
I am sorry but have you even had a real organized fascisct Party near you?
My initial comment was already more political than I should have made it, not going to delve further.
I saw a guy today on FB complain that one of the SM biker(I guess sgt?) is not wearing a helmet. And that he was angry as it set a bad example to his kid whom he is hobbying with and whome he alwyas explained he must wear a helmet when wearing his bcycle.
I kid you not...
I bet he has no idea what his kid does when he's out of LOS.
Also, has the idiot thought about the rest of this hobby & what message it's sending? Look! A game about shooting & stabbing each other, worshiping demons, & genocide. But remember, if you ride a bike you must wear your helmet...
Yeah its no so much that, is that he is literally riding into battle on a motorbike against wierd demons, bloodthirsty aliens that will flay him alive just for gaks and giggles and other that will suck out his bone marrow coz they hungry. The absurdity of him having his helmet on his belt and not on his head as some sort of priority is simply hilarious.
If your kid cant distinguish between reality and make believe nonsense that's on you and not the people making make believe nonsesne.. I mean does he also think GW is promoting purging heretics with the holy fire of the emperor? Lol..
It was juts soo stupid it irked me. If its such a big deal just stick one of the intercessor heads on him lol.. But thats what happens when everyone gets a voice and all of a sudden people want everything to be bubblewrapped in case they stub their toe...
If you -actually- believe everyone getting a voice is a bad thing then put your money where your mouth is and stop voicing your own.
Bonus points for getting offended over someone else taking offense too easily.
