That’s right – it won’t just be Primaris Marines on 2 Wounds anymore! All of a sudden, a lot of units that may have felt a bit left behind become very durable and appealing. From Battle Company units such as Assault, Devastator and Tactical Marines, to the elite Terminators of the 1st Company (who will be increased to 3 Wounds accordingly), the first born will be back to prove to their Primaris battle-brothers their great worth.
Also Chaos bois
And as for future codexes for other genetically engineered transhumans warriors (both of the shiny grey and spikey variety), the same will apply to them. Just think how durable that will make units like Rubric Marines or Plague Marines.
Intriguing... this kinda puts the brakes on the whole "phase out oldmarines" plan. Not to say it won't still happen, but probably not exactly just around the corner.
I'm also gravely concerned about the further power swing in favour of Marines, despite the points increase mentioned.
‘But what about my lovely xenos army?’ we hear you cry. Don’t worry – your weaponry will get the same treatment! While most of their wargear may not be as ubiquitous as the Imperium’s mass-produced arsenal, their weapons will also be looked at too...
Super Ready wrote: Intriguing... this kinda puts the brakes on the whole "phase out oldmarines" plan. Not to say it won't still happen, but probably not exactly just around the corner.
I'm also gravely concerned about the further power swing in favour of Marines, despite the points increase mentioned.
‘But what about my lovely xenos army?’ we hear you cry. Don’t worry – your weaponry will get the same treatment! While most of their wargear may not be as ubiquitous as the Imperium’s mass-produced arsenal, their weapons will also be looked at too...
WOOHOO!!
...when each of their codexes comes around.
...oh.
Yep, we will be in Horus Heresy 40k for the time being.
‘But what about my lovely xenos army?’ we hear you cry. Don’t worry – your weaponry will get the same treatment! While most of their wargear may not be as ubiquitous as the Imperium’s mass-produced arsenal, their weapons will also be looked at too...
WOOHOO!!
...when each of their codexes comes around.
...oh.
And we all know how well GW does at maintaining a "game development focus" during the entirety of an edition, where all the codexes follow the same design philosophy.
For those who are new: they don't. I don't believe, in the 25+ years I've been involved in GW games, that they have completed an entire set of 40k codexes following the same principles for the same edition of the game.
Depends entirely on how quickly they pump out the Codexes.
With a weekly release schedule, and this being more a “spit and polish” job than 8th compared to 9th, it’s feasible they can whip round the relatively few Xenos Codexes in a few months.
I mean, there are....erm...in no particular order..
1. Necrons
2. Craftwork Eldar
3. Dark Eldar
4. Orks
5. Tau
6. Tyranids
7. Harlequins
8. Genestealer Cults
Pretty sure that’s your lot. Focus on them first, as existing imperial forces get a de facto boost, and everyone is closer to an even keel relatively quickly.
Sisters get a bigger bump out of this than any of the other armies in the game. ESPECIALLY because we DON'T get the second wound.
Our infantry stays one wound an relatively cheap, which means the fact that melta is suddenly great and heavy bolters suddenly kill an intercessor per shot don't change anything for us.
Meanwhile every weapon that got the bump are the sum total of our weapon options. Even the second worst unit in the codex, the Immolator, gets an absolutely OBSCENE power boost from this.
+1S powerswords means that a unit of zephyrim becomes a crazy cuisinart of death with their reroll to wounds.
With a weekly release schedule, and this being more a “spit and polish” job than 8th compared to 9th, it’s feasible they can whip round the relatively few Xenos Codexes in a few months.
I mean, there are....erm...in no particular order..
1. Necrons
2. Craftwork Eldar
3. Dark Eldar
4. Orks
5. Tau
6. Tyranids
7. Harlequins
8. Genestealer Cults
Pretty sure that’s your lot. Focus on them first, as existing imperial forces get a de facto boost, and everyone is closer to an even keel relatively quickly.
I very much doubt Codexes will come out quicker than the fairly rapid pace in 8th, and we know the early days are likely to be Marine heavy given Deathwatch were mentioned as being an early codex and the integration of the Wolves, BA and DA.
GW doesn't tend to keep an edition around too long after all the codexes are done, and 8th wasn't really an exception.
GW have to tread very carefully after 9th edition, we loved 8th as a group so much and got us back into the game, if they change the rules too much in 10th edition we will keep playing 9th edition as a group because its the best version of 40k ever.
ERJAK wrote: Even the second worst unit in the codex, the Immolator, gets an absolutely OBSCENE power boost from this.
Because of the heavy bolter boost? Or do you mean multi-melta loadout?
I admit that shooting 4 melta shots, with the new melta range rule and miracle dice, could be... tempting .
I very much doubt Codexes will come out quicker than the fairly rapid pace in 8th, and we know the early days are likely to be Marine heavy given Deathwatch were mentioned as being an early codex and the integration of the Wolves, BA and DA.
Deathwatch & etc are supplements to the new SM codex, not codexes themselves. Those can be dumped out pretty fast on the heels of October- the real work is done, they just needed to move some numbers around on datasheets and copy-pasta the background sections.
That said, I'm not looking forward to another codex sprint. It definitely needs to be done now, but I was looking forward to the idea that they might take their time and do them right rather than sprint to the finish. But dumping all the major upgrade work on the individual books rather than a get-you-by list with the edition basically kicks that in the teeth. I'm worried about what corners they'll cut, and who gets the dubious privilege of being at the end of the list.
I very much doubt Codexes will come out quicker than the fairly rapid pace in 8th, and we know the early days are likely to be Marine heavy given Deathwatch were mentioned as being an early codex and the integration of the Wolves, BA and DA.
GW doesn't tend to keep an edition around too long after all the codexes are done, and 8th wasn't really an exception.
If there's no model releases to go with them, the Marine stuff can be done in a week.
Because that's what dragged out the Marine book+supplements last year. The characters being tied to supplements and the units being spread out to accompany them.
ERJAK wrote: Even the second worst unit in the codex, the Immolator, gets an absolutely OBSCENE power boost from this.
Because of the heavy bolter boost? Or do you mean multi-melta loadout?
I admit that shooting 4 melta shots, with the new melta range rule and miracle dice, could be... tempting .
The multimelta loadout. Without some significant upgrades to the immolation flamer, the MM loadout is likely to be the go to considering you can zoom up into melta range(and advance in argent shroud) and absolutely wreck a vehicle for only 20 more points is going to be hard to beat.
That's even ignoring the already competitively priced mortifiers seeing double the firepower against multiwound targets, retributors becoming hilariously terrifying, pengines finally actually being able to shoot some times, changes to other powerweapons helping boost celestians, etc.
They're buffing literally the only profiles we use. It's not like marines where it's like 'huh, melta might be better than plasma now' it's like 'the only thing we had is MASSIVELY superior all of a sudden!'
I very much doubt Codexes will come out quicker than the fairly rapid pace in 8th, and we know the early days are likely to be Marine heavy given Deathwatch were mentioned as being an early codex and the integration of the Wolves, BA and DA.
GW doesn't tend to keep an edition around too long after all the codexes are done, and 8th wasn't really an exception.
If there's no model releases to go with them, the Marine stuff can be done in a week.
Because that's what dragged out the Marine book+supplements last year. The characters being tied to supplements and the units being spread out to accompany them.
Without the Covid slowdown I would have guessed every single marine book done before the late november, early december release cutoff they have every year.
Albertorius wrote: So... now flamers are the same range as shuricats. That's great and not indicative at all that shuricats need different range bands, no siree.
Albertorius wrote: So... now flamers are the same range as shuricats. That's great and not indicative at all that shuricats need different range bands, no siree.
Heavy Flamers.
"Get Your Flame On!
Flamers and heavy flamers are moving to Range 12″, all the better to dissuade enemy assaults and hose your enemies down with liquid fire. We hope you brought marshmallows*!"
Albertorius wrote: So... now flamers are the same range as shuricats. That's great and not indicative at all that shuricats need different range bands, no siree.
Heavy Flamers.
"Get Your Flame On!
Flamers and heavy flamers are moving to Range 12″, all the better to dissuade enemy assaults and hose your enemies down with liquid fire. We hope you brought marshmallows*!"
Well, at least Hand Flamers keep a shorter range than a shuricat, right?
Albertorius wrote: So... now flamers are the same range as shuricats. That's great and not indicative at all that shuricats need different range bands, no siree.
Heavy Flamers.
"Get Your Flame On!
Flamers and heavy flamers are moving to Range 12″, all the better to dissuade enemy assaults and hose your enemies down with liquid fire. We hope you brought marshmallows*!"
In the news today breaking : a group of excited 40k nerds claiming to be chaos players have just started breaking windows and looting across the New York area, shouting things like " Chaos are getting 2 wounds! " and " blood for the blood god! " We will keep you updated as this crowd tears through New York City on a rampage, it looks like nothing can stop them.
Albertorius wrote: So... now flamers are the same range as shuricats. That's great and not indicative at all that shuricats need different range bands, no siree.
Heavy Flamers.
"Get Your Flame On!
Flamers and heavy flamers are moving to Range 12″, all the better to dissuade enemy assaults and hose your enemies down with liquid fire. We hope you brought marshmallows*!"
Well, at least Hand Flamers keep a shorter range than a shuricat, right?
I wonder if they could just throw the discs instead of shooting them out of the catapults. Maybe they'd go farther that way :p
Flamers and heavy flamers are moving to Range 12″, all the better to dissuade enemy assaults and hose your enemies down with liquid fire. We hope you brought marshmallows*!"
Fair point is fair
Heh, hopefully they'll feel that way when writing the eldar codexes ^^
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So what was the point of Primaris? Besides hundreds of shiny new models obviously.
Jes Goodwin said in the first Voxcast that he did that Primaris were a range revamp. But because they couldn't update the whole range at once they made them a new unit and factored that into the fluff.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So what was the point of Primaris? Besides hundreds of shiny new models obviously.
Jes Goodwin said in the first Voxcast that he did that Primaris were a range revamp. But because they couldn't update the whole range at once they made them a new unit and factored that into the fluff.
So he just straight up admitted to making a clunky mess of things? Wow.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So what was the point of Primaris? Besides hundreds of shiny new models obviously.
Jes Goodwin said in the first Voxcast that he did that Primaris were a range revamp. But because they couldn't update the whole range at once they made them a new unit and factored that into the fluff.
Link and timestamp please.
Because from what I recall, all he said is that he has basically done a complete range revamp in his sketches but it's too much to release all in one go. The Vanguard Marines, for example, were done at the same time as the Intercessors. The Bladeguard are the 'Crusaders' that he did then too.
Suddenly, Scarab Occult Terminators are gonna be gods. 3 wounds each, and now power swords that matter.
Also, warpflamer-armed Rubrics just became mandatory. Stick those guys in the webway, then pop out wherever you want and drop Veterans of the Long War on them.
Toasty!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I expected to see more gnashing of teeth at GW suddenly NOT squatting Old Marines. I'm disappointed in you, Dakka.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Suddenly, Scarab Occult Terminators are gonna be gods. 3 wounds each, and now power swords that matter.
Also, warpflamer-armed Rubrics just became mandatory. Stick those guys in the webway, then pop out wherever you want and drop Veterans of the Long War on them.
Toasty!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I expected to see more gnashing of teeth at GW suddenly NOT squatting Old Marines. I'm disappointed in you, Dakka.
Primaris fanboy: "NO, you can't just give old marines 2W, they're supposed to be squatted!" GW: "Heavy Bolters go brrrrrrrr"
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So what was the point of Primaris? Besides hundreds of shiny new models obviously.
Jes Goodwin said in the first Voxcast that he did that Primaris were a range revamp. But because they couldn't update the whole range at once they made them a new unit and factored that into the fluff.
So he just straight up admitted to making a clunky mess of things? Wow.
That seems like an excessively harsh interpretation of ''he said he said' that they decided to introduce them gradually.'
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So what was the point of Primaris? Besides hundreds of shiny new models obviously.
Jes Goodwin said in the first Voxcast that he did that Primaris were a range revamp. But because they couldn't update the whole range at once they made them a new unit and factored that into the fluff.
So he just straight up admitted to making a clunky mess of things? Wow.
That seems like an excessively harsh interpretation of ''he said he said' that they decided to introduce them gradually.'
They made models just to make models.
There was no place for the models without lore issues.
And so, they caused a huge lore mess that’s caused years of issues, including but not limited to the “Space marines are being squatted” conspiracy theory.
I actually think it's a good thing that they're doing this, and based on some of the xenos changes we've seen, maybe they'll finally update the statlines of the aspect warriors that have had the same profile since 4th!
I think this is an interesting move to homogenize primaris and “first born”. Make a new heavy weapon sprue and jump pack sprue that fit primaris and build better (or at least more proportional, given better is more of a personal aesthetic assessment) tac/devastator/assault squads. Goes on from there. Means folks can end up using more unit options they might not otherwise want to if they wanted pure primaris or pure “firstborn”.
Voss wrote: Ah. I've apparently missed out on whatever the 'lore mess' is.
The primaris lore seemed rather straightforward to me.
The conspiracy theory has been fun though, especially as it now has to cope with the new reality. The new contortions should be even more hilarious.
But yes, the model company did in fact make models to make (and sell) models. Shocking, that.
The initial lore for Primaris marines was poorly written and shoehorned into the setting very badly. More recent lore irons out a lot of the early rubbish but people don't forget what that did to the setting.
Super Ready wrote: Intriguing... this kinda puts the brakes on the whole "phase out oldmarines" plan.
Are you kidding? This is phase 2.
The line between First Born and Primaris blurs. Then, maybe a year or even two years from now, GW does a "rationalisation" of the Marine line, and decides that there are just so many kits they need to retire a bunch of them as to not be confusing to new players. And thus all the First Born Marines (probably not Terminators) go out of production, and "Primaris" Marines are now just regular Marines, no special distinction required.
Removing the ultimate legacy item from the game was never going to be a short-term project. This is just another step.
ERJAK wrote: They're buffing literally the only profiles we use. It's not like marines where it's like 'huh, melta might be better than plasma now' it's like 'the only thing we had is MASSIVELY superior all of a sudden!'
And the change to the melta damage synergize very well with our act of faith rule, that marines don't get, too!
We can turn a melta wounding into guaranteed 8 damages! Melta still can't one-shot most vehicle, like before 8th, but it's coming closer and closer.
Albertorius wrote: So... now flamers are the same range as shuricats. That's great and not indicative at all that shuricats need different range bands, no siree.
I don't play Eldars, I never played Eldars, and I don't intended to ever play Eldars. But my reaction to their announcement on their official social network was "Great I hope you buff the hell out of Eldars, esp. aspect warriors"
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So what was the point of Primaris? Besides hundreds of shiny new models obviously.
Jes Goodwin said in the first Voxcast that he did that Primaris were a range revamp. But because they couldn't update the whole range at once they made them a new unit and factored that into the fluff.
So he just straight up admitted to making a clunky mess of things? Wow.
That seems like an excessively harsh interpretation of ''he said he said' that they decided to introduce them gradually.'
I've misremembered which one it was in. The first one does talk about the marine redesign, but trying to track the one where they talk about resetting the scale. Thought it was that one, but might be the admech one?
Super Ready wrote: Intriguing... this kinda puts the brakes on the whole "phase out oldmarines" plan.
Are you kidding? This is phase 2.
The line between First Born and Primaris blurs. Then, maybe a year or even two years from now, GW does a "rationalisation" of the Marine line, and decides that there are just so many kits they need to retire a bunch of them as to not be confusing to new players. And thus all the First Born Marines (probably not Terminators) go out of production, and "Primaris" Marines are now just regular Marines, no special distinction required.
Removing the ultimate legacy item from the game was never going to be a short-term project. This is just another step.
Bingo. My thoughts too. Not that I overly mind tbh, I don't mind Primaris in a fluff sense or a model sense considering they're still relatively new but I think the strategy is clear. Harmonise using 'positive' changes - so bring the less powerful models up (rather than bringing Primaris down or leaving the status quo as it is) and keep doing this until the two become indistinguishable or too similar that there's a reason to dump one. It won't be Primaris.
Semper wrote: Bingo. My thoughts too. Not that I overly mind tbh, I don't mind Primaris in a fluff sense or a model sense considering they're still relatively new but I think the strategy is clear. Harmonise using 'positive' changes - so bring the less powerful models up (rather than bringing Primaris down or leaving the status quo as it is) and keep doing this until the two become indistinguishable or too similar that there's a reason to dump one. It won't be Primaris.
It's not that complex.
You thought they just kept throwing 'Rubicon' around because it was a spectacularly cool component of the lore?
You really thought that after 5 years of no 'standard' Space Marines, and nothing but Primaris- and multiple 'standard' marine equipment options being given to Primaris Marines...
...you honestly thought they were going to keep the standard space marines around?
Nah- they're gone, man. They were gone a long time ago- but fortunately, they're no more or less valid of a model than the new ones, so now all the people who love their old marines can still use them.
John D Law wrote: So now the new guys who are a head taller are no better than the original? So what’s the point of primaris now?
To look cool, I suppose. I mean, I had a few "firstborn" Space Wolves before Primaris were announced, but it's only the Primaris models which had me buy an entire army. They just look better - not necessarily where it comes to aesthetics, but the proportions are so much better - especially the upper legs look kinda ridiculous on all old marine models now, I think.
I’m just trying to imagine how annoying it’s going to be for CSM players during the several months to a year between the Space Marine and CSM codex releases.
Or, for that matter, the time period between the stat change on marine heavy bolsters and when everyone else’s heavy bolsters catch up. (Likewise any of the other announced weapon changes...)
This. The last time I had Marines as a main army they were mostly metal (!), but I jumped on the Conquest bandwagon and the difference between the rank and file is like night and day. The older guys look ... off, in comparison. It doesn't seem to hit as much on the more blinged-out characters, but you're not going to have an army of those guys, are you?
Leth wrote: I like that they are moving to the 2w standard for marines. It opens up a LOT more granularity in both points and weapons.
If something is supposed to kill marines ?D2. If it is more anti infantry? D1.
Marines will still feel like marines while a lot of weapons still kill 1w infantry the same.
This is kinda what i said in the other thread. I don't think is buff is going to be limited to marines. I think all elite infantry is going to get a buff and a pts hike. It creates this space at the 0-15ish point range for light infantry to actually have the pts range to have some nuance and better representation. At the minute you have this clogged up pts range where you get marines at 15pts and it trickles down from there where light infantry get pointed either so they either are more worth it than their weight in marines or they are worthless and other weirdness like their difference to other light inf.
Now its like marines and other elite units are going to be a bit more to light infantry that vehicles are currently to them.
John D Law wrote: So now the new guys who are a head taller are no better than the original? So what’s the point of primaris now?
Better looking models, +1 A, better weapons.
Primaris and Firstborn will be merged at one point probably, which is better than Firstborn getting outright squatted.
Better looking models: irrelevant for the game
+1 attack: Irrelevant for shooty units
Better weapons: Five Tac Marines with a heavy Bolter are the same points as 5 Intercessors. With the best anti-Marine bolter (stalker), they deal exactly the same average damage against W2 marines (2.22). With bolt and auto-bolt rifles, the Tacs deal significantly more damage. So 4 bolters and a heavy bolter are better weapons.
Voss wrote: Ah. I've apparently missed out on whatever the 'lore mess' is.
The primaris lore seemed rather straightforward to me.
The conspiracy theory has been fun though, especially as it now has to cope with the new reality. The new contortions should be even more hilarious.
But yes, the model company did in fact make models to make (and sell) models. Shocking, that.
Speaking of contortions - if the objective is making and selling models and oldmarines aren't going anywhere, where's their Chaos-scale new miniatures?
GW can Legends 2w oldmarines just as easily as they can Legends 1w oldmarines, new rules cost them nothing.
John D Law wrote: So now the new guys who are a head taller are no better than the original? So what’s the point of primaris now?
Better looking models, +1 A, better weapons.
Primaris and Firstborn will be merged at one point probably, which is better than Firstborn getting outright squatted.
Better looking models: irrelevant for the game
+1 attack: Irrelevant for shooty units
Better weapons: Five Tac Marines with a heavy Bolter are the same points as 5 Intercessors. With the best anti-Marine bolter (stalker), they deal exactly the same average damage against W2 marines (2.22). With bolt and auto-bolt rifles, the Tacs deal significantly more damage. So 4 bolters and a heavy bolter are better weapons.
Irrelevant to YOUR game but totally relevant to GW profitability plan and the majority of people who buy their miniatures for aesthetic purposes first and game later...
Leth wrote: I like that they are moving to the 2w standard for marines. It opens up a LOT more granularity in both points and weapons.
If something is supposed to kill marines ?D2. If it is more anti infantry? D1.
Marines will still feel like marines while a lot of weapons still kill 1w infantry the same.
This is kinda what i said in the other thread. I don't think is buff is going to be limited to marines. I think all elite infantry is going to get a buff and a pts hike. It creates this space at the 0-15ish point range for light infantry to actually have the pts range to have some nuance and better representation. At the minute you have this clogged up pts range where you get marines at 15pts and it trickles down from there where light infantry get pointed either so they either are more worth it than their weight in marines or they are worthless and other weirdness like their difference to other light inf.
Now its like marines and other elite units are going to be a bit more to light infantry that vehicles are currently to them.
if that makes sense
Not sure how making light infantry paperweigh helps though. There's not enough room point wise for light infantry to be anything but slt at objective. Ork boy? Don't bother to use to try to kill stuff. If you don't have d2 weapons you just are irrelevant damage output wise.
A horrible thought did just occur to me, actually. I know it's not how it's actually going to happen, especially since 3W Termies are already confirmed, but...
ALL FULLY-FLEDGED SPACE MARINES WILL BE GETTING 2 WOUNDS!
...Marneus Calgar with 2 Wounds, anyone? Or perhaps Mephiston? How about Dreadnoughts? They're still fully-fledged Space Marines, after all.
John D Law wrote: So now the new guys who are a head taller are no better than the original? So what’s the point of primaris now?
Better looking models, +1 A, better weapons.
Primaris and Firstborn will be merged at one point probably, which is better than Firstborn getting outright squatted.
Better looking models: irrelevant for the game
+1 attack: Irrelevant for shooty units
Better weapons: Five Tac Marines with a heavy Bolter are the same points as 5 Intercessors. With the best anti-Marine bolter (stalker), they deal exactly the same average damage against W2 marines (2.22). With bolt and auto-bolt rifles, the Tacs deal significantly more damage. So 4 bolters and a heavy bolter are better weapons.
So because stalker bolters deal the same damage as a tac unit with a heavy bolter which apparently is better at identical points? What?
1) Better looking models: irrelevant for the game
2) +1 attack: Irrelevant for shooty units
3) Better weapons: Five Tac Marines with a heavy Bolter are the same points as 5 Intercessors. With the best anti-Marine bolter (stalker), they deal exactly the same average damage against W2 marines (2.22). With bolt and auto-bolt rifles, the Tacs deal significantly more damage. So 4 bolters and a heavy bolter are better weapons.
1) For you perhaps. Many players care about how their model's look however.
2) Yes, absolutely. +1 A is irrelevant on a WS3+ S4 unit also including a sergeant with a Thunderhammer.
3) This comparison is so skewed that I along with the above points almost think you're trolling me.
John D Law wrote: So now the new guys who are a head taller are no better than the original? So what’s the point of primaris now?
Better looking models, +1 A, better weapons.
Primaris and Firstborn will be merged at one point probably, which is better than Firstborn getting outright squatted.
Better looking models: irrelevant for the game
+1 attack: Irrelevant for shooty units
Better weapons: Five Tac Marines with a heavy Bolter are the same points as 5 Intercessors. With the best anti-Marine bolter (stalker), they deal exactly the same average damage against W2 marines (2.22). With bolt and auto-bolt rifles, the Tacs deal significantly more damage. So 4 bolters and a heavy bolter are better weapons.
So because stalker bolters deal the same damage as a tac unit with a heavy bolter which apparently is better at identical points? What?
+1 attack is far from irrelevant. One the biggest issues of fighting interceptors is that they actually pack a punch if you want to put them in melee, especially if the sergeant has a thunder hammer.
John D Law wrote: So now the new guys who are a head taller are no better than the original? So what’s the point of primaris now?
It's the same with Sisters and you don't see people complaining that the new tall Sisters and the old short Sisters share the exact same profile!
It's almost like GW could have continued to update lines with fancy new toys that scale crept and updated aesthetics like they've done (probably?) every edition and it wouldn't have caused as big ripples.
Honestly, the whole Primaris thing has always felt like weird mind games to me, and I'm still not sure what transition they want us to accept or why or how much was planned vs. them messing around and changing to see what works better, but it kinda stinks of something and has left me disliking the whole maneuver to the point that I just have never felt the interest in playing any, despite the updates often being pretty solid.
If I'm still casually playing 40k when marines disappear, I'll be using mine as primaris, whether or not the change is officially supported.
solkan wrote: I’m just trying to imagine how annoying it’s going to be for CSM players during the several months to a year between the Space Marine and CSM codex releases.
Or, for that matter, the time period between the stat change on marine heavy bolsters and when everyone else’s heavy bolsters catch up. (Likewise any of the other announced weapon changes...)
In any case, when Codex: Space Marines arrives in October, every other unit that utilises the same wargear – regardless of Faction – will get their weapon profiles upgraded accordingly.
I'd imagine there won't be too long of a wait. Wouldn't be shocked if they add them to the FAQ articles.
Biggest concern, for me at least, is the stuff that isn't shared. But I don't see that as a huge issue given that covid basically has in-person gaming being a nonexistent thing for the next few months where I live.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I'm hopeful that the reason the Forgeworld update books aren't out yet is that they were waiting to integrate all these new changes without spoilers.
I'm giddy.. I got an "All Beaky" marine company that hasnt seen play for a while, thanks COVID, and I had been playing my Death Guard when I could.. but I am SO glad I hung onto my lil wonder guys..
As the owner of 100+ CSM that have been collecting dust for a year, I'm over the moon.
However I have a feeling they only now did this because they realized they wont be able to phase-out and replace all the other non-codex marine armies with Primaris equivalents of their unique units for a long time. Why bother designing a new Primaris based Sanguinary guard when you can just slap another wound on the old ones, still sell the old boxs, and call it a day. GW probably bit off more then they can chew and saw slowing sales numbers for other Marine armies that didn't get a Primaris make over, but they dont have the ability to push out brand new kits in a timely manner.
Super Ready wrote: Intriguing... this kinda puts the brakes on the whole "phase out oldmarines" plan.
Are you kidding? This is phase 2.
The line between First Born and Primaris blurs. Then, maybe a year or even two years from now, GW does a "rationalisation" of the Marine line, and decides that there are just so many kits they need to retire a bunch of them as to not be confusing to new players. And thus all the First Born Marines (probably not Terminators) go out of production, and "Primaris" Marines are now just regular Marines, no special distinction required.
Removing the ultimate legacy item from the game was never going to be a short-term project. This is just another step.
if thats the case the next logical step will be to allow old marines to board primaris transports. but not allow primaris on old marine transports.
Super Ready wrote: A horrible thought did just occur to me, actually. I know it's not how it's actually going to happen, especially since 3W Termies are already confirmed, but...
ALL FULLY-FLEDGED SPACE MARINES WILL BE GETTING 2 WOUNDS!
...Marneus Calgar with 2 Wounds, anyone? Or perhaps Mephiston? How about Dreadnoughts? They're still fully-fledged Space Marines, after all.
If you want to start playing words this actually says all marines will get 2 wounds aka tac's would be 3 wound ones and calgar would gain 2 wounds above their current values ;-)
Has any of this put a real dampener on you wanting to play 9th now with ye armies?
I spent like 2 weeks on and off updating like 8 chaos space marine army lists, now its like ugh the whole style of the army is gonna change and the points i CBA playing with them.
Just assuming a 3 pt increase (which is unlikely cross units) my 20 zerkers = + 60, 5 termies +15, 10 bikes + 30
If you don't want to take constantly changing things you are in wrong game. GW changes things constantly to make sure different things sell. Once they have sold unit X so much it doesn't sell much change balance so unit Y that hasn't sold that much before is selling better then.
As much as I understand the evolution of Firstborn to Primaris standard to the end game of removing the Firstborn I have no problem with it.
So long as the FB don't get out right squatted. The current difference between the FB and Primaris are now akin to the difference between Tac Squads, Assault and Devastators so nothing really of note.
Super Ready wrote: A horrible thought did just occur to me, actually. I know it's not how it's actually going to happen, especially since 3W Termies are already confirmed, but...
ALL FULLY-FLEDGED SPACE MARINES WILL BE GETTING 2 WOUNDS!
...Marneus Calgar with 2 Wounds, anyone? Or perhaps Mephiston? How about Dreadnoughts? They're still fully-fledged Space Marines, after all.
If you want to start playing words this actually says all marines will get 2 wounds aka tac's would be 3 wound ones and calgar would gain 2 wounds above their current values ;-)
I wouldn't be opposed to Guilliman getting two more wounds.
Inceptors remain the same. Any stat change for Primaris know seems unlikely.
If no special rule changes that, crossing the Rubicon Primaris is now the most pointless bioengineering break-through ever. Belisarian Furnace may as well be a ball of silicone inside the chest.
Oh, damage 1 assault bolters. Yeah, the pistol Heavy Bolters are gakky versions of the Heavy ones, now.
1 - normal human, ork boy, eldar soldier, tau soldier, etc., toughness can handle the ork boy
2 - space marines and anyone augmented or grown beyond the norm. ork nobz, the bulkier of tyranid/gsc cult infantry like where the whole unit is on 32mm bases. normal human characters that are relatively unimportant or not known for their ability to take bullets. a platoon officer, an astropath. bikes/mounts adding a wound to normal humans like GSC riders or guard roughriders
3 - the largest of the augmented infantry. and the plot armour of excellent human characters like lord commissars. terminators or bikes adding a wound to space marines
4 - space marine characters, regular custodes
5 - the truly tough and resilient augmented characters - a space marine character on a bike would go here. as wound something super tough like a lord of contagion. custodes terminators too.
6 - where light vehicles start. custodes on jetbikes would also be here
I want a space marine captain with a pair of lightning claws or a power sword to actually reliably kill a guard officer or even two in a single round of combat.
Personally, what I was expecting back when 8th started was for GW to do more with the fact that they said they were done with the 1-10 range for S and T. I was expecting T6 regular marines/orks, T10 Rhinos, T14 Land Raiders... things like that, and the same for weapon S.
DanielFM wrote: Inceptors remain the same. Any stat change for Primaris know seems unlikely.
If no special rule changes that, crossing the Rubicon Primaris is now the most pointless bioengineering break-through ever. Belisarian Furnace may as well be a ball of silicone inside the chest.
Oh, damage 1 assault bolters. Yeah, the pistol Heavy Bolters are gakky versions of the Heavy ones, now.
Good. Pistolised heavy bolters should be weaker.
Anyhow if it upsets you that primaris no longer have a rules difference that’s significantly bigger than the lore difference, just pretend your marines are all primaris genetically but have varied equipment.
tneva82 wrote: If you don't want to take constantly changing things you are in wrong game. GW changes things constantly to make sure different things sell. Once they have sold unit X so much it doesn't sell much change balance so unit Y that hasn't sold that much before is selling better then.
Not sure i said i didn't 'want' them to change. Was merely a point of note that they dropped a new ed, a new (paid for book) with points in. Then 3 weeks later fundamentally changed how 'astates' will work looking forward without really stating when and how the chaos stuff will update.
It does leave you in limbo. Why would i play games write a list 'now' for an army that will play differently in i'm not 100% sure when. Its a bit like you would not blow £300 on a necron army right now when you know a new codex is a couple of months away. I dont see much point playing with any of the several chaos marine armies i have right now till i know what they'll actually look like.
Things do not constantly change like this in 40k, its disingenuous to say that. Things get 'added' constantly i'll give you that and things change sometimes. All astartes based models getting 2 wounds and a pts hike is a once in 10/20 years kinda change to say otherwise is a waste of typing.
I'm gonna love my plague marines and khorne berzekers toting two wounds it'll be fluffy as hell. Fact they have teased this gives me no enthusiasm to invent and play lists right now where they rock around with just one.
tneva82 wrote: If you don't want to take constantly changing things you are in wrong game. GW changes things constantly to make sure different things sell. Once they have sold unit X so much it doesn't sell much change balance so unit Y that hasn't sold that much before is selling better then.
Not sure i said i didn't 'want' them to change. Was merely a point of note that they dropped a new ed, a new (paid for book) with points in. Then 3 weeks later fundamentally changed how 'astates' will work looking forward without really stating when and how the chaos stuff will update.
Eh? Chaos will get the weapons update (for melta, flamer, heavy bolters, etc) when everyone else does- when the Loyalist codex drops.
Wound update happens when the chaos codex drops. (Which is a bit gakky)
It does leave you in limbo. Why would i play games write a list 'now' for an army that will play differently in i'm not 100% sure when. Its a bit like you would not blow £300 on a necron army right now when you know a new codex is a couple of months away. I dont see much point playing with any of the several chaos marine armies i have right now till i know what they'll actually look like.
Eh. When is that not the case? The necron window is basically the longest we 'know' a new codex is coming. Outside of three months or so, we haven't known when an update is coming for a long time now.
Not playing in case a specific army is next up doesn't make any sense to me.
I could see not _buying_, but not avoiding games or writing lists for what I've got.
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Albertorius wrote: Personally, what I was expecting back when 8th started was for GW to do more with the fact that they said they were done with the 1-10 range for S and T. I was expecting T6 regular marines/orks, T10 Rhinos, T14 Land Raiders... things like that, and the same for weapon S.
But here we are.
Ugh. Those kind of numeric changes with the current 'to wound' chart makes my skin crawl.
tneva82 wrote: If you don't want to take constantly changing things you are in wrong game. GW changes things constantly to make sure different things sell. Once they have sold unit X so much it doesn't sell much change balance so unit Y that hasn't sold that much before is selling better then.
Not sure i said i didn't 'want' them to change. Was merely a point of note that they dropped a new ed, a new (paid for book) with points in. Then 3 weeks later fundamentally changed how 'astates' will work looking forward without really stating when and how the chaos stuff will update.
It does leave you in limbo. Why would i play games write a list 'now' for an army that will play differently in i'm not 100% sure when. Its a bit like you would not blow £300 on a necron army right now when you know a new codex is a couple of months away. I dont see much point playing with any of the several chaos marine armies i have right now till i know what they'll actually look like.
Things do not constantly change like this in 40k, its disingenuous to say that. Things get 'added' constantly i'll give you that and things change sometimes. All astartes based models getting 2 wounds and a pts hike is a once in 10/20 years kinda change to say otherwise is a waste of typing.
I'm gonna love my plague marines and khorne berzekers toting two wounds it'll be fluffy as hell. Fact they have teased this gives me no enthusiasm to invent and play lists right now where they rock around with just one.
chapter approved released what in early augest? so we'll assume a 3 month cycle.
well previously CA would release in decemmber.
in 8th edition we've gotten a LARGE number of new armies within 3 months of december (out to febuary)
1K sons, GSCs Chaos Deamons and custodes just for example.
Crusaderobr wrote: In the news today breaking : a group of excited 40k nerds claiming to be chaos players have just started breaking windows and looting across the New York area, shouting things like " Chaos are getting 2 wounds! " and " blood for the blood god! " We will keep you updated as this crowd tears through New York City on a rampage, it looks like nothing can stop them.
They don't need a weatherman to tell 'em from which side the wind blows.
tneva82 wrote: If you don't want to take constantly changing things you are in wrong game. GW changes things constantly to make sure different things sell. Once they have sold unit X so much it doesn't sell much change balance so unit Y that hasn't sold that much before is selling better then.
Yes - nobody owns any first born at all. There will totally be a surge of sales instead of people just opening their cabinets.
Hell I'm not even going to bother with the ETB MM Helbrutes I have. Just gonna buy new ones.
tneva82 wrote: If you don't want to take constantly changing things you are in wrong game. GW changes things constantly to make sure different things sell. Once they have sold unit X so much it doesn't sell much change balance so unit Y that hasn't sold that much before is selling better then.
Yes - nobody owns any first born at all. There will totally be a surge of sales instead of people just opening their cabinets.
Hell I'm not even going to bother with the ETB MM Helbrutes I have. Just gonna buy new ones.
To be fair, there does seem to be a lot of new players jumping in for the 9th. It even seems like more than the number for 8th. Which really felt like was more players that dropped out because of 6th/7th edition more than brand new players. I can't say that for certain of course. But given the other part of the internet that I have visited it definitely feels like it.
There does seem to be a lot of people popping out of the woodwork, but that may be the "I stopped playing, because GW invalidated my old marines, but now they're good again" crowd.
up to a point it is easier to buy new stuff instead of tweaking the old models to fit new rules
specially if you not used magnets on everything and even in that case you still might need new weapons and if 3rd party bits are not an option you are for sure going to buy some GW boxes
Daedalus81 wrote: There does seem to be a lot of people popping out of the woodwork, but that may be the "I stopped playing, because GW invalidated my old marines, but now they're good again" crowd.
As long as Xenos gets a similar overhaul... This could be a really really good thing depending on how it turns out. Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll have an accurate gauge of how good this edition is without either several more codices after space marines, unless they have some way like indices to rope the rest of the factions along for the update.
Daedalus81 wrote: There does seem to be a lot of people popping out of the woodwork, but that may be the "I stopped playing, because GW invalidated my old marines, but now they're good again" crowd.
Jokes on them in a few years I 'spose.
Unless it means they get a few more years out of their collection that they didn't think they had?
I think this is definitely not the time to run out and drop piles of cash on old marines, because I don't trust GW, but why not get some fun out of a codex update improving your list?
Assuming old marines do get squatted, I expect it's going to be a question of do proxy them as new marines or CSM based on which feels closest to the options/style you like, but various types of marine players (for instance, the long periods when CSM have been trash) have been doing that for years to optimize which power armor is the best, so I don't think it'll be that hard, just increasingly anachronistic, but I respect people who've held onto their ancient beaky lists for nostalgia or retro fun or whatever.
Hm, now might be very much the time to drop piles of cash on old marines. Because if/when GW does cut them they will probably maintain and even increase in value quite well.
Funny the oldmarines will be squatted crowd's predictions keep getting squashed though. First it was v2 codex that was supposed to be primaris only. Or the 9th ed. Neither happened. When v2 codex came out next step on removal was supposed to be oldmarines be nerfed to death so nobody would bother to use them. Instead they got hefty buff and now THAT is supposedly part of. So first plan was to nerf them and squat them except now it's been buff them before squatting all the time
tneva82 wrote: Funny the oldmarines will be squatted crowd's predictions keep getting squashed though.
Nah. Getting rid of the First Born product line is a long term project. You can't just do it in an edition.
As I said when this was first announced, the lines between First Born and Primaris will blurr with this latest change. And then maybe with the next Marine Codex, or perhaps even the one after that (into 10th Ed by that stage, no doubt), they can talk about how it's time to "rationalise" the Space Marine line, because there are so many "redundant choices" that are just "confusing to new players", so now they will "retire" the older kits.
They will probably first moved to online only so new players get less exposed to them and don't buy them. So the percentage of active marine players with old marines in their army will drop more and more until they can safely squat them without too much of an uproar. Plus they probably make it official that you can use old marines as primaris. This will be then silently dropped in the next codex. But I would wager it takes at least 6 years before they stop selling them.
What exactly would incentive them to stop selling old marines at this point?
I think this "...aaaaaand everyone is primaris now" is an elegant way out of angering people by not updating every chapter-specific unit and old fan-favorites like death company, crusader squads, terminators or sternguard while at the same time not angering everyone else by releasing nothing but primaris for another two years. At some point an annoyed fanbase turns into lost money.
tneva82 wrote: Funny the oldmarines will be squatted crowd's predictions keep getting squashed though.
Nah. Getting rid of the First Born product line is a long term project. You can't just do it in an edition.
As I said when this was first announced, the lines between First Born and Primaris will blurr with this latest change. And then maybe with the next Marine Codex, or perhaps even the one after that (into 10th Ed by that stage, no doubt), they can talk about how it's time to "rationalise" the Space Marine line, because there are so many "redundant choices" that are just "confusing to new players", so now they will "retire" the older kits.
Or, two years down the line, they could release firstborn marines in the same proportions as the new chaos marines, so they look fairly normal next to primaris. And then never stop selling either of the types of marine because why would you?
tneva82 wrote: Funny the oldmarines will be squatted crowd's predictions keep getting squashed though.
Nah. Getting rid of the First Born product line is a long term project. You can't just do it in an edition.
As I said when this was first announced, the lines between First Born and Primaris will blurr with this latest change. And then maybe with the next Marine Codex, or perhaps even the one after that (into 10th Ed by that stage, no doubt), they can talk about how it's time to "rationalise" the Space Marine line, because there are so many "redundant choices" that are just "confusing to new players", so now they will "retire" the older kits.
Or, two years down the line, they could release firstborn marines in the same proportions as the new chaos marines, so they look fairly normal next to primaris. And then never stop selling either of the types of marine because why would you?
Isn't that what the gashapon marine blind boxes were? I would not be surprised if those were an Option B for the marine reboot but they opted for the more drastic Option A primaris.
macluvin wrote: As long as Xenos gets a similar overhaul... This could be a really really good thing depending on how it turns out. Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll have an accurate gauge of how good this edition is without either several more codices after space marines, unless they have some way like indices to rope the rest of the factions along for the update.
In one of the lead up articles about rules to 9th, they explicitly stated all 9th edition armies were tested together, implying that the codexes are already written. They just need to be printed and put into some type of release schedule. I expect we will know more come the end of September, early Orktober.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: What exactly would incentive them to stop selling old marines at this point?
I think this "...aaaaaand everyone is primaris now" is an elegant way out of angering people by not updating every chapter-specific unit and old fan-favorites like death company, crusader squads, terminators or sternguard while at the same time not angering everyone else by releasing nothing but primaris for another two years. At some point an annoyed fanbase turns into lost money.
Or, they use the old marine line as an excuse to take HH full plastic with existing kits, allowing FW to fill out the empty spots. Just as planned.
Voss wrote: Why would they take HH to full plastic?
Why (at this point, especially with plastic) would FW be involved?
When I was playing, it was a common topic of discussion. A lot of potential players would say "I'd play the game if it wasn't in resin." FW prices make GW standard prices look like Walmart prices, and I think this would be the chief reason to go full plastic. Most of the stuff in 40K mini-marine line is 30K compatible, or could easily be added to the 30K restaurant.
macluvin wrote: As long as Xenos gets a similar overhaul... This could be a really really good thing depending on how it turns out. Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll have an accurate gauge of how good this edition is without either several more codices after space marines, unless they have some way like indices to rope the rest of the factions along for the update.
In one of the lead up articles about rules to 9th, they explicitly stated all 9th edition armies were tested together, implying that the codexes are already written. They just need to be printed and put into some type of release schedule. I expect we will know more come the end of September, early Orktober.
That does not imply that at all. It means all armies were playtested with 9th core rules. It doesn't mean they've also written and playtested every rule that will be released for the next 3 to 4 years.
macluvin wrote: As long as Xenos gets a similar overhaul... This could be a really really good thing depending on how it turns out. Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll have an accurate gauge of how good this edition is without either several more codices after space marines, unless they have some way like indices to rope the rest of the factions along for the update.
In one of the lead up articles about rules to 9th, they explicitly stated all 9th edition armies were tested together, implying that the codexes are already written. They just need to be printed and put into some type of release schedule. I expect we will know more come the end of September, early Orktober.
"Here, play this miserably balanced, broken, beta test version instead for the next year while we slooooooooooooooowly extract all the value out of you we can by selling 40$ hardback books. Nobody playtested the version YOURE going to be playing, hahahahahaahahahahaha, what?"
macluvin wrote: As long as Xenos gets a similar overhaul... This could be a really really good thing depending on how it turns out. Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll have an accurate gauge of how good this edition is without either several more codices after space marines, unless they have some way like indices to rope the rest of the factions along for the update.
In one of the lead up articles about rules to 9th, they explicitly stated all 9th edition armies were tested together, implying that the codexes are already written. They just need to be printed and put into some type of release schedule. I expect we will know more come the end of September, early Orktober.
"Here, play this miserably balanced, broken, beta test version instead for the next year while we slooooooooooooooowly extract all the value out of you we can by selling 40$ hardback books. Nobody playtested the version YOURE going to be playing, hahahahahaahahahahaha, what?"
or just don't play against any army with a codex when you have an index.
macluvin wrote: As long as Xenos gets a similar overhaul... This could be a really really good thing depending on how it turns out. Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll have an accurate gauge of how good this edition is without either several more codices after space marines, unless they have some way like indices to rope the rest of the factions along for the update.
In one of the lead up articles about rules to 9th, they explicitly stated all 9th edition armies were tested together, implying that the codexes are already written. They just need to be printed and put into some type of release schedule. I expect we will know more come the end of September, early Orktober.
That does not imply that at all. It means all armies were playtested with 9th core rules. It doesn't mean they've also written and playtested every rule that will be released for the next 3 to 4 years.
Agreed. Nothing about putting all the armies on tables during playtesting even vaguely suggests that all future codexes are already written.
+1
I would be all over a nice version of Heresy armor, as long as it looked like the FW version and not like an awkward version of standard Marine armor. Not positive about the casting capabilities, but assuming equivalent fidelity I think that the difference of 5 vs. 6 is more interesting that that between 1 and 2
+1
I would be all over a nice version of Heresy armor, as long as it looked like the FW version and not like an awkward version of standard Marine armor. Not positive about the casting capabilities, but assuming equivalent fidelity I think that the difference of 5 vs. 6 is more interesting that that between 1 and 2
FWIW, the plastic Mk3 and 4 look good in plastic and are easy to work with AND don't have anything off proportion overall to the FW offerings.
I thought the 4 came out great; I prefer the 3 FW to the plastics... something was lost in the translation, due to proportions or how undercuts work or something, on at least some of the parts.
tneva82 wrote: Funny the oldmarines will be squatted crowd's predictions keep getting squashed though.
Nah. Getting rid of the First Born product line is a long term project. You can't just do it in an edition.
As I said when this was first announced, the lines between First Born and Primaris will blurr with this latest change. And then maybe with the next Marine Codex, or perhaps even the one after that (into 10th Ed by that stage, no doubt), they can talk about how it's time to "rationalise" the Space Marine line, because there are so many "redundant choices" that are just "confusing to new players", so now they will "retire" the older kits.
Or, two years down the line, they could release firstborn marines in the same proportions as the new chaos marines, so they look fairly normal next to primaris. And then never stop selling either of the types of marine because why would you?
Isn't that what the gashapon marine blind boxes were? I would not be surprised if those were an Option B for the marine reboot but they opted for the more drastic Option A primaris.
How about the classic "why not both?"
They considered A and B, and they went with A.
Time passes, some people like A, some people grow to like it, some people just still don't like primaris.
Make something for those who love their intercessors but hate how puny their old marines look next to them (like one might perceive a scrawny Rogue Trader marine next to a 4th to 7th edition marine), and those who just want their old marines to stand up to the intercessor proportions.
Bam, new regularis marines. Now anyone who wants to use a blend of Primaris and old marines has the opportunity to buy 3 more devastator boxes, 6 more tactical boxes, and 3 more assault boxes!
And I guess tactical squads cost $60 now somehow? So they will cost at least that much.
So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.
Hey I don't play 40K so can someone tell me if this makes Hellblasters good or not? I had heard that they are a sub-par choice and I thought this was a shame (didn't really matter to me, I still bought them because I like the look but, much like Reivers, for some bizarre reason I kind of want them to be half decent for gamers )
I like Helblasters, but to be honest I stopped caring about totally optimized lists years ago. I'm more concerned about smiling and having a good time with a friend than curbstomping people any more.
I wouldn't say that they are bad by any means, but the new stuff might be more optimal.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.
I mean not really? No one was taking Hellblasters anymore. They at least have a more interesting variety now. If heavy is D3 it is still single shot.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.
I mean not really? No one was taking Hellblasters anymore. They at least have a more interesting variety now. If heavy is D3 it is still single shot.
Yes, really. I was commenting on the fact that we are continuing to see improvements in the amount of damage currently existing weapons can put out, not on whether or not Hellblasters are considered "good" compared to the myriad of strong options already available to loyalists.
And, as always, it needs to be said: Just because something isn't considered good compared to the other units in the strongest, most bloated codex in the game, doesn't mean it wouldn't be considered good in any other faction. AP-4 is a big deal, it renders any 3+ save moot without an invul, and when in the respective doctrine for the corresponding weapon it goes up to AP-5, which does the same to anything with a 2+ save lacking an invul. In any other codex that would be considered good, the fact that it's considered "meh" for loyalists speaks volumes about how many good options they have.
There really wasn't a reason to take anything but the rapid fire variant. The loss of strength and range killed the assault variant. Extra shots helps it significantly. The extra damage on the Heavy version actually makes it a contender now. It was overshadowed by the Eliminator Las Fusils before (which could deploy forward and get better accuracy). So overall, these changes were needed.
casvalremdeikun wrote: There really wasn't a reason to take anything but the rapid fire variant. The loss of strength and range killed the assault variant. Extra shots helps it significantly. The extra damage on the Heavy version actually makes it a contender now. It was overshadowed by the Eliminator Las Fusils before (which could deploy forward and get better accuracy). So overall, these changes were needed.
The arguement could be made for the Assault Version as Raven Guard as you're firing at full effect and enjoying your defensive bonus from 24" away, but that was honestly the only time. Even the Heavy one was bad as Imperial Fists with the extra damage towards vehicles! That was a flat D3 too with no randumb!
Basically they went the route they did with Intercessors in terms of weapon roles and that was a good thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also do we have ANY info on Sternguard or nah?
casvalremdeikun wrote: There really wasn't a reason to take anything but the rapid fire variant. The loss of strength and range killed the assault variant. Extra shots helps it significantly. The extra damage on the Heavy version actually makes it a contender now. It was overshadowed by the Eliminator Las Fusils before (which could deploy forward and get better accuracy). So overall, these changes were needed.
agreed, now at least for people who want to use hellblasters it's actually a CHOICE as to what gun they wanna use
I would actually rate the Assault version the best now I think. That’s a good number of shots at decent range with really nice AP for cracking open heavier infantry.
AduroT wrote: I would actually rate the Assault version the best now I think. That’s a good number of shots at decent range with really nice AP for cracking open heavier infantry.
keep in mind the obvious heavy infantry here, marines, are going up to 2 wounds each, it'll be solid no doubt there but it's certainly not autotake. IMHO each of the guns now has a place depending on planned role.
Whilst I think GW making Hellblasters 8 PL in the latest update was beyond stupid, I do appreciate that they're trying to make the alternate weapon choices actually a choice.
casvalremdeikun wrote: There really wasn't a reason to take anything but the rapid fire variant. The loss of strength and range killed the assault variant. Extra shots helps it significantly. The extra damage on the Heavy version actually makes it a contender now. It was overshadowed by the Eliminator Las Fusils before (which could deploy forward and get better accuracy). So overall, these changes were needed.
The arguement could be made for the Assault Version as Raven Guard as you're firing at full effect and enjoying your defensive bonus from 24" away, but that was honestly the only time. Even the Heavy one was bad as Imperial Fists with the extra damage towards vehicles! That was a flat D3 too with no randumb!
Basically they went the route they did with Intercessors in terms of weapon roles and that was a good thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also do we have ANY info on Sternguard or nah?
I agree. I wonder if they will do the same for Bolt Carbines (though there are actually four variations of those, not three). Definitely liking the idea of D4 vs vehicles with my Crimson Fists. I am not sure I will add Hellblasters back into my list, but if I do, they will be the Heavy variant.
And no, absolutely no info on Sternguard, which burns my keister because Sternguard are my favorite unit in the game (though Bladeguard are working at toppling that because of their similar aesthetic). Hopefully we will see them soon.
+1 for agreeing they have to make the alternate weapons at least vaguely interesting.
Admittedly it may produce problems - but when people are only taking one variant for years, you know its an issue.
For Hellblasters anyway. Intercessors were already there.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.
Honestly, I'm not too fussed about this one. Hellblasters always seemed super glass cannon for their point cost and the other two weapon options were juuuuust pointless.
Dreadnought/Helbrute Plasma Cannons, Heavy Plasma Incinerators, whatever kind of plasma cannons get mounted on Leman Russ tanks, all going to D2 base is fine with me.
Also worth noting that even if every weapon were to increase in damage by 20%, which generally speaking they're not, if marine armies shrink in size by 20% it's the same difference.
or if they drastically nerf doctrines.
Something like:
Devastator, all heavy weapons reroll 1s to hit if the firer didn't move
Tactical, models with Rapid Fire weapons can still shoot if their unit performed an Advance move in the movement phase
Assault, same as now.
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0XFallen wrote: The Bolt variants only needed tweaks because of marines super rules and having RF on 30". The carbine already got 3 shots and the heavy variant D2
Yeah they could be done with "Static Gunline Marines" and I'd be OK with that. Itd be fun if the most common army in the game could move more than Guard/Tau opponents move again.
0XFallen wrote: The Bolt variants only needed tweaks because of marines super rules and having RF on 30". The carbine already got 3 shots and the heavy variant D2
no that;'s the autobolt rifle. the carbine is a differant weapon entirely and is used by reiver's it's still assault 2 for some reason
AduroT wrote: I would actually rate the Assault version the best now I think. That’s a good number of shots at decent range with really nice AP for cracking open heavier infantry.
I'm not so sure about that. If you overcharge for that sweet 2D, that's 3 chances to kill yourself with each dude. It's the same reason plasma Kataphron Destroyers are always "almost" good but never actually good--with so many shots, overcharging is literally suicide for a pretty expensive model, and the real value is in overcharging.
Not Online!!! wrote: 3 shot tau plasma gun?
Why yes, water down the faction identity more.
Space Marines manage to have a distinct identity from SOBs and they share the same bloody weapons.
if a factions entire identity is based around a single gun, that faction should proably be squatted.
Not Online!!! wrote: 3 shot tau plasma gun?
Why yes, water down the faction identity more.
Space Marines manage to have a distinct identity from SOBs and they share the same bloody weapons.
if a factions entire identity is based around a single gun, that faction should proably be squatted.
The faction identity of sm got flanderized was the meaning.
Because atm it went from Generalist shocktroops to everything you have but +1 if we are talking primaris.
AduroT wrote: I would actually rate the Assault version the best now I think. That’s a good number of shots at decent range with really nice AP for cracking open heavier infantry.
I'm not so sure about that. If you overcharge for that sweet 2D, that's 3 chances to kill yourself with each dude. It's the same reason plasma Kataphron Destroyers are always "almost" good but never actually good--with so many shots, overcharging is literally suicide for a pretty expensive model, and the real value is in overcharging.
Even with 3 shots rerolls nullify that a lot. 1/36 odds 3 time. Not that scary
They are classic. And classic enough that GW remade Beakies for Primaris. I wish they would make more of them.
As for making a whole kit devoted to Beakies, they stand a much bigger chance than any other classic armor Mk. Mk II looks too much like Mk III.
Honestly, the two Marks I even care about already exist, so I don't really care either way. But I would like Mk VI more than anything else.
The fact Raven Guard upgrade sprue comes with an entire one beakie is almost as painful as Iron Hands sprue coming with just two iron hands or the Salmanders one coming with just one flamer.
Not Online!!! wrote: 3 shot tau plasma gun?
Why yes, water down the faction identity more.
Space Marines manage to have a distinct identity from SOBs and they share the same bloody weapons.
if a factions entire identity is based around a single gun, that faction should proably be squatted.
The faction identity of sm got flanderized was the meaning.
Because atm it went from Generalist shocktroops to everything you have but +1 if we are talking primaris.
except that guns been around for ages, no one took it because it sucked, so they made the exact same buff to it they did with auto bolt rifles,
as for faction identity, yes the marines identity was elite resiliant shock troopers. way I see it they now feel like that
Not Online!!! wrote: 3 shot tau plasma gun?
Why yes, water down the faction identity more.
Space Marines manage to have a distinct identity from SOBs and they share the same bloody weapons.
if a factions entire identity is based around a single gun, that faction should proably be squatted.
Not Online!!! wrote: 3 shot tau plasma gun?
Why yes, water down the faction identity more.
Space Marines manage to have a distinct identity from SOBs and they share the same bloody weapons.
if a factions entire identity is based around a single gun, that faction should proably be squatted.
<glances at Dark Angels>
No, no, they have hoods and memes about being chaos. Never take that away from them.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Except as the Tactical Marines suffer casualties, their performance drops off faster than the Intercessors.
Dont know how one could come to that conclusion but it is obviously exactly the other way round...
The Tacticals will remove the best shooter (=HB equipped Marine) last, so their performance actually drops slower!
This will be even more prominent on Eradicators and Hellblaster in comparison to Devastators (or Veterans).
A unit of 10 Devastators with 4 Multimeltas can fire 8 Melta shots at 24", while 3 units of 3 Eradicators can initially fire 9 Melta shots at 24".
The moment the Eradicators take casualties, they instantly drop in shots and with 6 casualties they only got 3 Melta shoots left, which is 33% of what they initially had
The moment the Devastators take casualties nothing really happens and even with 6 casualties they are still at 100% of their melta output.
I am really eager to see if GW puts the Plasmacannon at D2 base / D3 overcharged, like they did with the Hellblasters "heavy" Plasmawhateveritiscalled.
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Gadzilla666 wrote: So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.
Kinda short-sighted view...
Oldmarines getting 2W comes with an increase in points, leading to fewer models on the table and therefore fewer guns/output. They consequently adjust weapons so that 2000 points of Marines still dish out like 2000 points of Marines are supposed to do, even if they lose 20-25% of their bodies/weapons.
Besides the Hellblasters "heavy" weapon was a pure joke before, it def needed adjustment and upping its D by 1 is probably the best way possible.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.
Kinda short-sighted view...
Oldmarines getting 2W comes with an increase in points, leading to fewer models on the table and therefore fewer guns/output. They consequently adjust weapons so that 2000 points of Marines still dish out like 2000 points of Marines are supposed to do, even if they lose 20-25% of their bodies/weapons.
Besides the Hellblasters "heavy" weapon was a pure joke before, it def needed adjustment and upping its D by 1 is probably the best way possible.
Right, classic marines are going to be more expensive and therefore there will be less of them. Hellblasters, however, are primaris, not classic marines. They'll be the same price, but with better guns. You can get just as many hellblasters as before, but now they'll be better. This is a straight buff, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's an improvement to a unit that hasn't been seeing a lot of use, not some grand balancing plan.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.
Kinda short-sighted view...
Oldmarines getting 2W comes with an increase in points, leading to fewer models on the table and therefore fewer guns/output. They consequently adjust weapons so that 2000 points of Marines still dish out like 2000 points of Marines are supposed to do, even if they lose 20-25% of their bodies/weapons.
Besides the Hellblasters "heavy" weapon was a pure joke before, it def needed adjustment and upping its D by 1 is probably the best way possible.
Right, classic marines are going to be more expensive and therefore there will be less of them. Hellblasters, however, are primaris, not classic marines. They'll be the same price, but with better guns. You can get just as many hellblasters as before, but now they'll be better. This is a straight buff, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's an improvement to a unit that hasn't been seeing a lot of use, not some grand balancing plan.
You ASSUME they will be same price.
Have we seen codex release ever without point changes?
Gadzilla666 wrote: So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.
I mean not really? No one was taking Hellblasters anymore. They at least have a more interesting variety now. If heavy is D3 it is still single shot.
Yes, really. I was commenting on the fact that we are continuing to see improvements in the amount of damage currently existing weapons can put out, not on whether or not Hellblasters are considered "good" compared to the myriad of strong options already available to loyalists.
And, as always, it needs to be said: Just because something isn't considered good compared to the other units in the strongest, most bloated codex in the game, doesn't mean it wouldn't be considered good in any other faction. AP-4 is a big deal, it renders any 3+ save moot without an invul, and when in the respective doctrine for the corresponding weapon it goes up to AP-5, which does the same to anything with a 2+ save lacking an invul. In any other codex that would be considered good, the fact that it's considered "meh" for loyalists speaks volumes about how many good options they have.
It definitely isn't meh for loyalists. That gun is a primaris murderer now and it likely rises to the level of Eradicators over half range when shooting vehicles. The problem being when they shoot they'll kill 3/5 of their own unit most of the time, which means captain and additional cost (and rolling one model at a time).
I can see your wheels spinning about them negating your Fellblade's 2+. In the current deployment setup you're going to need cultists (singular spawn are also great for this). You have to have enough drops to see where such units will be getting placed to maximize the advantage of your ranges.
For other units - don't leave home without Supplication.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.
I mean not really? No one was taking Hellblasters anymore. They at least have a more interesting variety now. If heavy is D3 it is still single shot.
Yes, really. I was commenting on the fact that we are continuing to see improvements in the amount of damage currently existing weapons can put out, not on whether or not Hellblasters are considered "good" compared to the myriad of strong options already available to loyalists.
And, as always, it needs to be said: Just because something isn't considered good compared to the other units in the strongest, most bloated codex in the game, doesn't mean it wouldn't be considered good in any other faction. AP-4 is a big deal, it renders any 3+ save moot without an invul, and when in the respective doctrine for the corresponding weapon it goes up to AP-5, which does the same to anything with a 2+ save lacking an invul. In any other codex that would be considered good, the fact that it's considered "meh" for loyalists speaks volumes about how many good options they have.
It definitely isn't meh for loyalists. That gun is a primaris murderer now and it likely rises to the level of Eradicators over half range when shooting vehicles. The problem being when they shoot they'll kill 3/5 of their own unit most of the time, which means captain and additional cost (and rolling one model at a time).
I can see your wheels spinning about them negating your Fellblade's 2+. In the current deployment setup you're going to need cultists (singular spawn are also great for this). You have to have enough drops to see where such units will be getting placed to maximize the advantage of your ranges.
For other units - don't leave home without Supplication.
Have we seen codex release ever without point changes?
Given a PL of 8 I doubt they'll change much. Anything extreme would take them too far into glass cannon land.
eh, technically the powerlevel could change too. Theoretically the most recent PL changes are only for units as they exist now, after all.
I will say that hellblasters getting this boost makes WS and Impulsors even better(assuming impulsors keep their disembark and shoot rules) that's what...15 S7 Ap-4 D2 plasma shots with a 45+D6 inch range with no risk and no penalty. Even if you don't super charge that's a ridiculous amount of S6 AP-4 shots.
You could also drop the impulsor and just take 30 of them for 90 30+D6 inch range S7 AP-4 2 damage shots for less than a thousand points. After characters and troops you'd still have 500ish points left to kill off whatever happened to survive that first hail of 115 wounds against Intercessor equivalent targets or 92 wounds against rhino equivalent targets.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.
Kinda short-sighted view...
Oldmarines getting 2W comes with an increase in points, leading to fewer models on the table and therefore fewer guns/output. They consequently adjust weapons so that 2000 points of Marines still dish out like 2000 points of Marines are supposed to do, even if they lose 20-25% of their bodies/weapons.
Besides the Hellblasters "heavy" weapon was a pure joke before, it def needed adjustment and upping its D by 1 is probably the best way possible.
Right, classic marines are going to be more expensive and therefore there will be less of them. Hellblasters, however, are primaris, not classic marines. They'll be the same price, but with better guns. You can get just as many hellblasters as before, but now they'll be better. This is a straight buff, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's an improvement to a unit that hasn't been seeing a lot of use, not some grand balancing plan.
Have you EVER seen anyone take hellblasters with anything BUT the rapid fire guns? this is an attempt to make the hellblasters other weapons options worth while. the gun everyone uses anyway isn't being buffed. this isn't an upgrade so much as a sidegrade
Gadzilla666 wrote: So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.
Kinda short-sighted view...
Oldmarines getting 2W comes with an increase in points, leading to fewer models on the table and therefore fewer guns/output. They consequently adjust weapons so that 2000 points of Marines still dish out like 2000 points of Marines are supposed to do, even if they lose 20-25% of their bodies/weapons.
Besides the Hellblasters "heavy" weapon was a pure joke before, it def needed adjustment and upping its D by 1 is probably the best way possible.
Right, classic marines are going to be more expensive and therefore there will be less of them. Hellblasters, however, are primaris, not classic marines. They'll be the same price, but with better guns. You can get just as many hellblasters as before, but now they'll be better. This is a straight buff, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's an improvement to a unit that hasn't been seeing a lot of use, not some grand balancing plan.
Have you EVER seen anyone take hellblasters with anything BUT the rapid fire guns? this is an attempt to make the hellblasters other weapons options worth while. the gun everyone uses anyway isn't being buffed. this isn't an upgrade so much as a sidegrade
Tell that to the first person that eats 90 S7 Ap-4 D3 shots.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.
Kinda short-sighted view...
Oldmarines getting 2W comes with an increase in points, leading to fewer models on the table and therefore fewer guns/output. They consequently adjust weapons so that 2000 points of Marines still dish out like 2000 points of Marines are supposed to do, even if they lose 20-25% of their bodies/weapons.
Besides the Hellblasters "heavy" weapon was a pure joke before, it def needed adjustment and upping its D by 1 is probably the best way possible.
Right, classic marines are going to be more expensive and therefore there will be less of them. Hellblasters, however, are primaris, not classic marines. They'll be the same price, but with better guns. You can get just as many hellblasters as before, but now they'll be better. This is a straight buff, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's an improvement to a unit that hasn't been seeing a lot of use, not some grand balancing plan.
Have you EVER seen anyone take hellblasters with anything BUT the rapid fire guns? this is an attempt to make the hellblasters other weapons options worth while. the gun everyone uses anyway isn't being buffed. this isn't an upgrade so much as a sidegrade
Tell that to the first person that eats 90 S7 Ap-4 D3 shots.
that's 1000 points of hellblasters and his entire heavy support selection (meaning no eradicators, no eliminators etc) frankly any list built that way is gonna be a one trick pony,
So scouts are confirmed to be remaining at one wound.
Scouts being 1W makes no sense from a fluff-perspective, which bugs me a little.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Scouts just less experienced firstborn in worse armor, but who from a physiological standpoint are exactly the same as firstborn?
I.e, 4+ save and T4 makes sense, 1W does not (especially not on the sgt.)
Kinda makes the tinfoil-theory about GW wanting to move scouts from Troops to Elites (or just Legends) seem more plausible.
What better way to silently move a decade old entry without having the playerbase kick up a fuss, than to make it garbage for an edition first?
Glad about Bolters remaining 24" (they should be) and Shotguns getting some love and becoming 18" though (now they're actually viable).
MinscS2 wrote: What better way to silently move a decade old entry without having the playerbase kick up a fuss, than to make it garbage for an edition first?
What better way to have the playerbase kick up a fuss than make a decade old entry garbage for an edition?
MinscS2 wrote: What better way to silently move a decade old entry without having the playerbase kick up a fuss, than to make it garbage for an edition first?
What better way to have the playerbase kick up a fuss than make a decade old entry garbage for an edition?
Dunno, scouts as the 'cultist' style cheaper filler/objective holder unit makes sense in an army that is getting more and more elite. Not a horde but an option to focus on having more of the elite options without having to surrender too much board control.
GW have always liked the 1st and 10th style armies.
Scouts are revealed, which means a Sternguard and Devastator reveal is soonish. Also remarkably annoying that Shotguns are 18". There's really no reason to go Bolter at that point because stationary for the extra shot is literally only 6" and you get the benefits of the Assault weapon (as often as it comes up anyway) and likely keeping the rule for S5 at closer range. I'm just perplexed since the Bolter was already the least interesting option on them to begin with.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.
I mean not really? No one was taking Hellblasters anymore. They at least have a more interesting variety now. If heavy is D3 it is still single shot.
Yes, really. I was commenting on the fact that we are continuing to see improvements in the amount of damage currently existing weapons can put out, not on whether or not Hellblasters are considered "good" compared to the myriad of strong options already available to loyalists.
And, as always, it needs to be said: Just because something isn't considered good compared to the other units in the strongest, most bloated codex in the game, doesn't mean it wouldn't be considered good in any other faction. AP-4 is a big deal, it renders any 3+ save moot without an invul, and when in the respective doctrine for the corresponding weapon it goes up to AP-5, which does the same to anything with a 2+ save lacking an invul. In any other codex that would be considered good, the fact that it's considered "meh" for loyalists speaks volumes about how many good options they have.
It definitely isn't meh for loyalists. That gun is a primaris murderer now and it likely rises to the level of Eradicators over half range when shooting vehicles. The problem being when they shoot they'll kill 3/5 of their own unit most of the time, which means captain and additional cost (and rolling one model at a time).
I can see your wheels spinning about them negating your Fellblade's 2+. In the current deployment setup you're going to need cultists (singular spawn are also great for this). You have to have enough drops to see where such units will be getting placed to maximize the advantage of your ranges.
For other units - don't leave home without Supplication.
No I'm not worried about what they'll do to my Fellblade because at its current inflated price along with the increase in the price of everything else (with more increases likely to come) I doubt I'll be playing it much. I'm more worried about what the assault variant will do to my soon to be 2W infantry, and what the heavy variant will do to any vehicle without an invul. The strength of a lascannon with the AP of a melta with a 36 inch range? Ouch. And we still don't know what the overcharge profile looks like. That thing will eat Leman Russes and Baneblades. And in the devastator doctrine it will have an AP equal to weapons that are meant to be super heavy killers like volcano cannons and D-scythes.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.
Kinda short-sighted view...
Oldmarines getting 2W comes with an increase in points, leading to fewer models on the table and therefore fewer guns/output. They consequently adjust weapons so that 2000 points of Marines still dish out like 2000 points of Marines are supposed to do, even if they lose 20-25% of their bodies/weapons.
Besides the Hellblasters "heavy" weapon was a pure joke before, it def needed adjustment and upping its D by 1 is probably the best way possible.
Right, classic marines are going to be more expensive and therefore there will be less of them. Hellblasters, however, are primaris, not classic marines. They'll be the same price, but with better guns. You can get just as many hellblasters as before, but now they'll be better. This is a straight buff, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's an improvement to a unit that hasn't been seeing a lot of use, not some grand balancing plan.
Have you EVER seen anyone take hellblasters with anything BUT the rapid fire guns? this is an attempt to make the hellblasters other weapons options worth while. the gun everyone uses anyway isn't being buffed. this isn't an upgrade so much as a sidegrade
Ok, it's an improvement to a gun that hasn't been seeing a lot of use. Is that better?
Intercessors didn't change much. The Auxillary Grenade Launcher is now an Assault weapon, allowing it to be fired alongside the bolt rifle. This is especially good on Auto Bolt Rifle squads, as they will be firing both the grenade launcher and the ABR.
Scouts combat blades aren't getting AP, so that sucks. Perhaps Reivers will get a special version? Unlikely. But at least the Sergeant having a Chainsword provides a benefit.
There's a thread in 40k General which is trying to stay on top of them - I think there are a few Necron ones as well, but most of the ones I remember were SM.
Necrons are getting a lot of their classic units completely redone so we're seeing less new datasheets for them as GW's not bothering to rebox the old stuff. So yeah it's MOSTLY Marine stuff for now.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.
Kinda short-sighted view...
Oldmarines getting 2W comes with an increase in points, leading to fewer models on the table and therefore fewer guns/output. They consequently adjust weapons so that 2000 points of Marines still dish out like 2000 points of Marines are supposed to do, even if they lose 20-25% of their bodies/weapons.
Besides the Hellblasters "heavy" weapon was a pure joke before, it def needed adjustment and upping its D by 1 is probably the best way possible.
Right, classic marines are going to be more expensive and therefore there will be less of them. Hellblasters, however, are primaris, not classic marines. They'll be the same price, but with better guns. You can get just as many hellblasters as before, but now they'll be better. This is a straight buff, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's an improvement to a unit that hasn't been seeing a lot of use, not some grand balancing plan.
Have you EVER seen anyone take hellblasters with anything BUT the rapid fire guns? this is an attempt to make the hellblasters other weapons options worth while. the gun everyone uses anyway isn't being buffed. this isn't an upgrade so much as a sidegrade
Tell that to the first person that eats 90 S7 Ap-4 D3 shots.
that's 1000 points of hellblasters and his entire heavy support selection (meaning no eradicators, no eliminators etc) frankly any list built that way is gonna be a one trick pony,
So scouts are confirmed to be remaining at one wound.
When your one trick is killing 57 intercessors or 9 rhinos per turn(that's with 2 damage, we're gonna ignore the IF/DA ability to go up to 3), you're probably gonna be okay.
MinscS2 wrote: Scouts being 1W makes no sense from a fluff-perspective, which bugs me a little.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Scouts just less experienced firstborn in worse armor, but who from a physiological standpoint are exactly the same as firstborn?
I.e, 4+ save and T4 makes sense, 1W does not (especially not on the sgt.)
IDK, I like that their roles are getting substantially differentiated from Marines proper. What's wrong with this, as long as the points reflect it? And what if the 2W vs. 1W reflects some of the benefits of power armor, which includes ablative plates for instance?
ERJAK wrote: When your one trick is killing 57 intercessors or 9 rhinos per turn(that's with 2 damage, we're gonna ignore the IF/DA ability to go up to 3), you're probably gonna be okay.
Yes, ignore the IF Legacy of Dorn ability completely, because it doesn't work on assault weapons? And the DA stratagem can be used on one unit. Where are you getting 90 shots at damage 3?
Tell that to the first person that eats 90 S7 Ap-4 D3 shots.
Are you presuming Dark Angels for D3?
Sort of. I realize that technically only 30 of those shots can get to D3, so the rest was hyperbole. That said, even at 2 damage that's still a metric fethton of damage.
ERJAK wrote: When your one trick is killing 57 intercessors or 9 rhinos per turn(that's with 2 damage, we're gonna ignore the IF/DA ability to go up to 3), you're probably gonna be okay.
Yes, ignore the IF Legacy of Dorn ability completely, because it doesn't work on assault weapons? And the DA stratagem can be used on one unit. Where are you getting 90 shots at damage 3?
That's my oopsy. Didn't use it in the calc though so who cares? That's 57 int or 9 rhinos without it still.
Tell that to the first person that eats 90 S7 Ap-4 D3 shots.
Are you presuming Dark Angels for D3?
Sort of. I realize that technically only 30 of those shots can get to D3, so the rest was hyperbole. That said, even at 2 damage that's still a metric fethton of damage.
ERJAK wrote: When your one trick is killing 57 intercessors or 9 rhinos per turn(that's with 2 damage, we're gonna ignore the IF/DA ability to go up to 3), you're probably gonna be okay.
Yes, ignore the IF Legacy of Dorn ability completely, because it doesn't work on assault weapons? And the DA stratagem can be used on one unit. Where are you getting 90 shots at damage 3?
That's my oopsy. Didn't use it in the calc though so who cares? That's 57 int or 9 rhinos without it still.
Because you're stating it as though it's somehow attainable to get 3 damage on all the shots or even possible for Imperial Fists for d3. So people care and think this unit is even more brokenly op now.
I want to see the codex and points changes before making that claim though.
spiralingcadaver wrote: And what if the 2W vs. 1W reflects some of the benefits of power armor, which includes ablative plates for instance?
Gimmee for my sisters!
Blimey what a can of worms.
Yessssss!!!
Honestly a 1W Scout as a troop option is consistent with the lore, the fluff and the logic in the universe.
Scouts aren't full Marines and aren't in full power armour. They are still growing their enhanced organs.
I'd say a Sergeant should get +1W but there may be allowances for that in the Codex.
But depending on the final points cost of the New Scouts hopefully they won't be MarineLite to allow filling troops to bring in the big guns.
At cheap 1W vs almost as cheap 2W it is going to make for some interesting army lists, I hope.
I *DO* think there is a market and a game play gap for a Scout bases Marine Chapter. There is plenty of ways you could motivate for it. Sorta like the Raven Guard but without jump packs and more stealthy. (Alpha Legion successors?)
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So sorry I sold my RT marines. Man I would love to field an army of them now at T4, 2W.
I took a (almost) pure RT army out a few battles ago. They had a pretty good showing, down to the final die roll close (which did not come up in my favor)
Fighting the good fight for the Emperor, since back at the dawn of time!
I’m looking forward to what 9th and the new dex will do for them. So far seeing a lot of good things.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So sorry I sold my RT marines. Man I would love to field an army of them now at T4, 2W.
I took a (almost) pure RT army out a few battles ago. They had a pretty good showing, down to the final die roll close (which did not come up in my favor)
Fighting the good fight for the Emperor, since back at the dawn of time!
I’m looking forward to what 9th and the new dex will do for them. So far seeing a lot of good things.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So sorry I sold my RT marines. Man I would love to field an army of them now at T4, 2W.
HA! I have one tac squad left that I had put away about a decade ago with the original missile launcher - hooray for beige plastics! Gonna break it out and assemble it (going to get a good chuckle fielding the "hunch backed" marines side by side with primaris…)
Kayback wrote:Heavy Bolter Beakie and the Captain?
The HB (who is in a full suit of Mk. VI, although 7th? edition era) and one of the flamers is from 3rd. There is an off chance some of sculpts are a little over the line into 2nd (I’ve got 2 eras of thunderhammers, and actually picked them up covered in dust sometime around 4th edition) but I think the rest are RT
dr_sarcasm wrote:HA! I have one tac squad left that I had put away about a decade ago with the original missile launcher - hooray for beige plastics! Gonna break it out and assemble it (going to get a good chuckle fielding the "hunch backed" marines side by side with primaris…)
I love fielding the old alongside the new. They fill slightly different tactical roles and make for a nice balanced force. I’ve been fielding beakies non-stop up until now, no reason to slow down.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So sorry I sold my RT marines. Man I would love to field an army of them now at T4, 2W.
HA! I have one tac squad left that I had put away about a decade ago with the original missile launcher - hooray for beige plastics! Gonna break it out and assemble it (going to get a good chuckle fielding the "hunch backed" marines side by side with primaris…)
I had a box of 3 ETB Primaris, the only ones I own, out and took this pic while stripping my Space Crusade guys to repaint. My RT guys weren't out and now they are my ETB is in pieces to be painted, but you can see what the difference will be like
BrianDavion wrote: Necrons are getting a lot of their classic units completely redone so we're seeing less new datasheets for them as GW's not bothering to rebox the old stuff. So yeah it's MOSTLY Marine stuff for now.
Eh mostly new units actually. Warriors which we knew, monolith. That's about it for old unit redone. Rest are new units.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So sorry I sold my RT marines. Man I would love to field an army of them now at T4, 2W.
HA! I have one tac squad left that I had put away about a decade ago with the original missile launcher - hooray for beige plastics! Gonna break it out and assemble it (going to get a good chuckle fielding the "hunch backed" marines side by side with primaris…)
I had a box of 3 ETB Primaris, the only ones I own, out and took this pic while stripping my Space Crusade guys to repaint. My RT guys weren't out and now they are my ETB is in pieces to be painted, but you can see what the difference will be like
Well looks to be about head taller. With marines 7 feet and primaris 8 feet close enough
Jidmah wrote: That's a RT era marine? It somehow looks vastly better than the last generations of plastic firstborns.
That's a bit of a stretch. Space Crusade models aren't bad and certainly weren't at the time. Some of it I'd say is owed to the power armor design that is friendly to being cast in one body part plus weapon and backpack. GW used that to good effect in the 4th ed to 6th ed starter sets and perhaps less good effect in the 2nd ed starter set.
The thing that is very apparent about them is the lack of undercuts, which is just as present on the aforementioned later edition starter Marines, but there's also a lack of depth. Look at a Battle for Macragge Marine next to a Space Crusade Marine. The former has, for instance, a sculpted neck with the neck seal detailed and clearly visible. The Space Crusade Marine has the helmet very close to the torso so that there is no need for any recessed detail.
Additionally, detail is somewhat soft on them. There's just no comparison even to GW's 3rd ed Marine remake, let alone any modern kit.
Now don't get me wrong, GW does have models from that era that if it weren't for scale creep would hold up well to this day. I like to point to Azrael whenever I say that. I'm also quite fond of the sculpting style from back then. But considering them "vastly better" than modern Marine models is a bit much in my opinion.
I wasn't into Space Crusade, but yeah, everything else about that assessment rings true. There were a handful of very nice models, but there were a lot where their poses (like this) look like they're trying to hunch their shoulders up and hide their neck so the sculptors can hide undercuts or otherwise cast in as few parts as possible.
Almost every model from 1st or early 2nd that I really like is either because of the idea or the creativity. Mid 2nd-3rd is when most armies started getting the identifiable look they have now, regarding stable look and better sculpting/casting. There's a reason that GW's oldest models they've continued to produce are from then and not 1st and it isn't just style.
Jidmah wrote: That's a RT era marine? It somehow looks vastly better than the last generations of plastic firstborns.
My RT plastics and some early metal mini's too with my Primaris.
Edit, those RT's were not destroyed by me, they were rescues and I have not identified what they were originally painted in, looked like cement. I salvaged what I could and they lost some detail in the process.
So with the Profiles of Primaris and Secundus Marines getting significantly closer does anyone think there will be any easing up of restrictions on whom can ride what transport? In the Fluff Primaris already ride Drop-pods, and there is no fluff reason a Secundus Captain couldn't ride in a Primaris Impulsor. After all the Inquisitor can.
Justyn wrote: So with the Profiles of Primaris and Secundus Marines getting significantly closer does anyone think there will be any easing up of restrictions on whom can ride what transport? In the Fluff Primaris already ride Drop-pods, and there is no fluff reason a Secundus Captain couldn't ride in a Primaris Impulsor. After all the Inquisitor can.
Inquisitors can't ride in an Impulsor. Authority of the Inquisition allows Inquisitors to ignore Faction Keywords when embarking onto Transports, but not other Keywords. <Primaris>, like <Terminator>, is not a Faction Keyword, but a normal Keyword (look at any Primaris Datasheet), so Inquisitors can't use their Authority to ignore it.
Justyn wrote: So with the Profiles of Primaris and Secundus Marines getting significantly closer does anyone think there will be any easing up of restrictions on whom can ride what transport? In the Fluff Primaris already ride Drop-pods, and there is no fluff reason a Secundus Captain couldn't ride in a Primaris Impulsor. After all the Inquisitor can.
Inquisitors can't ride in an Impulsor. Authority of the Inquisition allows Inquisitors to ignore Faction Keywords when embarking onto Transports, but not other Keywords. <Primaris>, like <Terminator>, is not a Faction Keyword, but a normal Keyword (look at any Primaris Datasheet), so Inquisitors can't use their Authority to ignore it.
Sorry, but now if I ever buy a Primaris vehicle I’m going to have to paint a little silhouette on the back with a sign that reads “You must be at least this Primaris to enter”!
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