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How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:27:04


Post by: Mixzremixzd


WarCom article to read some other changes for yourself.

Simple question, interested to see what the data from Dakka looks like.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:28:53


Post by: LunarSol


It's a little weird. I had kind of accepted that Primaris were going to phase out classic marines, but apparently they were just a beta test?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:31:22


Post by: Dudeface


It mentions fully fledged astartes, which scouts aren't, so maybe not all marines?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:32:26


Post by: Mixzremixzd


 LunarSol wrote:
It's a little weird. I had kind of accepted that Primaris were going to phase out classic marines, but apparently they were just a beta test?


Tbh I'm actually pretty happy about it. Given that not too long ago there was a thread here about people still using their firstborn and not touching Primaris, I think making them more viable and CSM too isn't bad for the game or health of the playerbase.

Old era C/SM players shouldn't feel so cheated by Primaris now that they're for all intents and purposes on equal footing.

Edit: Yeah it sounds like Scouts will still be 1W, I used ALL so that it covers CSM as well.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:36:42


Post by: Dudeface


 Mixzremixzd wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
It's a little weird. I had kind of accepted that Primaris were going to phase out classic marines, but apparently they were just a beta test?


Tbh I'm actually pretty happy about it. Given that not too long ago there was a thread here about people still using their firstborn and not touching Primaris, I think making them more viable and CSM too isn't bad for the game or health of the playerbase.

Old era C/SM players shouldn't feel so cheated by Primaris now that they're fall all intents and purposes on equal footing.

Edit: Yeah it sounds like Scouts will still be 1W, I used ALL so that it covers CSM as well.


That's fair, tbh 2 wound plague marines at lower 20's points is... scary.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:38:02


Post by: Mr Morden


Cautiously happy about it depending on the pts changes.



How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:38:46


Post by: nekooni


 Mr Morden wrote:
Cautiously happy about it depending on the pts changes.


15 -> 18 Points


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:41:10


Post by: tulun


Largely depends on points.

The only frustration is weapons upgrades are being doled out slowly. Means that the xenos waiting for theirs are gonna get their teeth kicked in.

I hope their release schedule is aggressive.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:41:48


Post by: Insectum7


I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:43:38


Post by: Mr Morden


nekooni wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Cautiously happy about it depending on the pts changes.


15 -> 18 Points

Thats seems ok, I think, but there are lot of other Marine units we don't know the pts cost for.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:44:19


Post by: nekooni


 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.


why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:46:41


Post by: Vaktathi


Mostly for me, between gaming venues being closed, the release of a new edition to learn, the hamfisted points "rebalancing" for 9E, the changes to a slew of weapons, and all the Marine changes, it means 40k is essentially "on hold" for me for the foreseeable future until there's some sort of marginally stable metagame and rebalancing for a significant number of non-SM factions comes into play, as right now it feels like 9E is essentially still in an early pre-release state, a game that was released before it really knew what it wanted to be and is still undergoing primary development.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:46:57


Post by: Daedalus81


 LunarSol wrote:
It's a little weird. I had kind of accepted that Primaris were going to phase out classic marines, but apparently they were just a beta test?


The nice thing is people who want to mod Intercessors into First Born get the best of both worlds. Its a pretty great move.



How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:47:04


Post by: Voss


Wait and see. Too many unknowns.


I do think they should have scrapped all the books and gone with a Ravening Hordes 'get-you-by' update if they wanted to do sweeping changes like this.
Messing with unit and weapon stats makes this feel like a bigger update than 7th to 8th. They've created a muddle of unnecessary uncertainty and are now sprinting to keep up, and have now created a situation where they have to speed churn the codexes for everybody out again, because no one is going to want to wait 2-4 years for their turn to have real weapons and unit upgrades.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:47:39


Post by: Tyel


Mixed tbh.

In principle - sure.

In practice though, this feels like:
*WELCOME TO 9TH!*
Shouldn't this have been in an index, or a rulebook, or something?
*NO! FULL SPEED AHEAD MARINE CODEX IS THE NEW RULEBOOK GO GO GO!*

The issue isn't really marines.

I am concerned about a major nerf to D1 weapons, that will now be even worse than they were in a Primaris meta.
I'm also concerned with *expensive* 1 wound models (mainly xenos) being really bad comparably.
I am concerned that in turn the meta will become the equivalent of Starcannon spam for everyone - where D2 is the new AP3. Which potentially inflicts a soft nerf on vehicles/monsters.
Speaking of, I am worried that 2 shot multimeltas that get +2 damage in 12" are ludicrous and make every other comparable anti-tank weapon a joke.

I'm looking at that supposedly leaked datasheet on the Heavy Lokhust and crying at *just how bad* it is compared with the buggy, pre any special rules.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:51:43


Post by: Voss


I'm looking at that supposedly leaked datasheet on the Heavy Lokhust and crying at *just how bad* it is compared with the buggy, pre any special rules.

Ignore the buggy.
The Gladius is coming. The AT version has twin lastalons and TWO multimeltas, and is using the Impulsor as the base chassis. (Much like the rhino is the base for the predator/vindicator)

Besides the firestrike turret makes the lokhust seem sad.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:52:04


Post by: nekooni


Tyel wrote:
Mixed tbh.

In principle - sure.

In practice though, this feels like:
*WELCOME TO 9TH!*
Shouldn't this have been in an index, or a rulebook, or something?
*NO! FULL SPEED AHEAD MARINE CODEX IS THE NEW RULEBOOK GO GO GO!*

The issue isn't really marines.

I am concerned about a major nerf to D1 weapons, that will now be even worse than they were in a Primaris meta.
I'm also concerned with *expensive* 1 wound models (mainly xenos) being really bad comparably.
I am concerned that in turn the meta will become the equivalent of Starcannon spam for everyone - where D2 is the new AP3. Which potentially inflicts a soft nerf on vehicles/monsters.
Speaking of, I am worried that 2 shot multimeltas that get +2 damage in 12" are ludicrous and make every other comparable anti-tank weapon a joke.

I'm looking at that supposedly leaked datasheet on the Heavy Lokhust and crying at *just how bad* it is compared with the buggy, pre any special rules.


Marines becoming 2W is actually kind of a buff to elite 1W xenos units - people will bring more 2D weapons to deal with them, which are in turn worse than 1D weapons vs your 1W Xenos models. That's assuming they get the points right for the new Marine codex.

And when you redesign a Faction, why wouldn't you use the Codex for that? Unit datasheets have no place in the BRB.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:53:24


Post by: yukishiro1


It isn't just wounds, it's also weapons. In other words, classic stat inflation. And it's not happening all at once, some factions will have to wait many months or years to be inflated to the same level as Space Marines will get in October.

Stat inflation is bad for the game period, but inflating stats book by book rather than all at the same time is even worse. It's like GW found the worst possible thing they could do for game balance and decided to do it.

The've created two versions of 9th, the version played by factions with stat inflation from their codexes (or knock-on stat inflation form the same weapon being inflated in somebody else's codex), and those without it.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:54:43


Post by: Sumilidon


I hate the idea but only because they are doin it staggered. Buffing core stats will make power creep so much more eggagerated. If you are going to play with core stats, amend them all at the same time.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:56:16


Post by: skchsan


Tyel wrote:
Speaking of, I am worried that 2 shot multimeltas that get +2 damage in 12" are ludicrous and make every other comparable anti-tank weapon a joke.
Yeah... but that's what meltas are supposed to do. It's not supposed to have any competition when it does get in melta range.

This is like saying "I'm worried now that lascannons cost only 15 pts which have 48" range with S9 AP-3 will make every other comparable anti-tank weapon a joke."


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:56:31


Post by: Voss


nekooni wrote:

Marines becoming 2W is actually kind of a buff to elite 1W xenos units - people will bring more 2D weapons to deal with them, which are in turn worse than 1D weapons vs your 1W Xenos models. That's assuming they get the points right for the new Marine codex.

That really depends on the weapon. A lot of weapons (especially high shot weapons) deal with both without issue.

And when you redesign a Faction, why wouldn't you use the Codex for that? Unit datasheets have no place in the BRB.

Ravening hordes. Drip feeding a mass update is pretty terrible. 'You'll get your upgrades... later. No we won't tell you when.' is an approach people will innately complain about.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:56:45


Post by: LunarSol


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
It's a little weird. I had kind of accepted that Primaris were going to phase out classic marines, but apparently they were just a beta test?


The nice thing is people who want to mod Intercessors into First Born get the best of both worlds. Its a pretty great move.



I'm not upset about it at all, its just not the way I thought the winds were blowing. More surprised than anything.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:56:46


Post by: Insectum7


nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.


why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4? Against most small arms, and therefore most infantry firefights, it's 2W by a mile.

When Necrons were first introduced, Warriors had T4 3+, and Immortals had T5 3+, this is when most Space Marines were T4, 1W, 3+. Warriors started out being as tough as a Space Marine, with resurrection capability on top of it. Immortals were straight up tougher.

The 5th edition codex nerfed the Warrior and Immortal in comparison to the Space Marine. Warriors went to 4+ and Immortals went to T4. Immortals going to T5 is them merely going BACK to what they originally were. Space Marines going to 2W is unprecedented.

This is just like the long, slow erosion of the Shuriken Catapult for Eldar. It starts of being great, and then through the years it just degrades and the continuous pumping of Space Marines (my primary faction, btw) surpasses it for the effing SM wankery of the designers/novels/whatever.

I'm really, really tired of iconic aspects of other races being squelched by the obsession with spheesh maahreens.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:57:02


Post by: Mixzremixzd


yukishiro1 wrote:
It isn't just wounds, it's also weapons. In other words, classic stat inflation. And it's not happening all at once, some factions will have to wait many months or years to be inflated to the same level as Space Marines will get in October.

Stat inflation is bad for the game period, but inflating stats book by book rather than all at the same time is even worse. It's like GW found the worst possible thing they could do for game balance and decided to do it.


I agree for the most part but I wanted to focus the topic a little bit rather than tackle the entire beast. 2 wound firstborn and CSM have been a hot topic since Primaris were introduced, I mean how many "rumours" of cult troops going to 2Ws have we seen crop up every other month since 8th?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:58:53


Post by: tneva82


Dam1 weapons so stuff like ig troopers, ork boyz etc will be even less relevant for damage output so will be relegated to slt on objective and sleep. D2 is what d1 used to be.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:58:55


Post by: nekooni


yukishiro1 wrote:
It isn't just wounds, it's also weapons. In other words, classic stat inflation. And it's not happening all at once, some factions will have to wait many months or years to be inflated to the same level as Space Marines will get in October.

Stat inflation is bad for the game period, but inflating stats book by book rather than all at the same time is even worse. It's like GW found the worst possible thing they could do for game balance and decided to do it.

a) We do not know if those weapons are more expensive, and by how much. Maybe someone will now come in shouting "but point changes are only ever done in Chapter Approved so Multimelta will remain at 20/25!", but that's still just plain stupid.
b) It's not stat inflation if what you're doing is increasing stats while also increasing cost. It's turning an army into a more elite version of it, by reducing model count but increasing power per model.
c) Stat inflation by itself isn't bad for the game at all. If we'd blow up all stats by adding a 0 everywhere that'd be straight up inflation, and it would not change a thing on its own. But it would allow GW to more precisely fine tune rules. It's not like they could handle that, though.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 16:59:54


Post by: yukishiro1


Also, because the wounds are being inflated only on old marines, but the weapons are being inflated for everyone, the net result is greater lethality in the game, not less. So New 9th will be even more lethal than Launch 9th which was even more lethal than 8th which was...you get the picture.

I don't think what the game needed was more stat inflation, more engineered imbalance between factions, and greater lethality.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:00:40


Post by: Blndmage


nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.


why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...


They should have never taken away the Immortal's T5 to start!
Warriors should be back at 3+!


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:01:19


Post by: nekooni


 Insectum7 wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.


why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4? Against most small arms, and therefore most infantry firefights, it's 2W by a mile.

Didn't claim it would be better or equivalent, just that they DID get something to make them tougher (literally) and that it's a good thing that not every troop choice now gets promoted to 2W T4 or whatever, but that units get tougher in different ways.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:01:30


Post by: Insectum7


 Blndmage wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.


why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...


They should have never taken away the Im ortaks T5 to start!
Warriors should be back at 3+!
One-effing-hundred percent.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:01:52


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Feels a bit RPG video gamey

Where at the start the enemys have 10hp and you do 3 dmg and by the end they have 100hp and you do 30, especially if as it appears weapons get a matching bump

And as ever the drip feed / fish on the line / jam tomorrow dogma isnt going to help, just drop all the Codexs and link new toys to the next version of PA


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:02:51


Post by: Daedalus81


Sumilidon wrote:
I hate the idea but only because they are doin it staggered. Buffing core stats will make power creep so much more eggagerated. If you are going to play with core stats, amend them all at the same time.


This presumes other factions will get an increase in wounds. Maybe aspects and a small handful of others, but it isn't going to be widespread.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:03:12


Post by: Insectum7


nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.


why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4? Against most small arms, and therefore most infantry firefights, it's 2W by a mile.

Didn't claim it would be better or equivalent, just that they DID get something to make them tougher (literally) and that it's a good thing that not every troop choice now gets promoted to 2W T4 or whatever, but that units get tougher in different ways.
It sucks having something that was once "better than" slowly become "worse than". It's an erosion of unit identity for Space Mareins uber-alles.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:03:58


Post by: nekooni


yukishiro1 wrote:
Also, because the wounds are being inflated only on old marines, but the weapons are being inflated for everyone, the net result is greater lethality in the game, not less. So New 9th will be even more lethal than Launch 9th which was even more lethal than 8th which was...you get the picture.

I don't think what the game needed was more stat inflation, more engineered imbalance between factions, and greater lethality.

Again - what inflation? If all the marine weapons that get buffed get an appropiate price increase, there'll still be the same fire power on the table since you'll only bring half as many Multimeltas as before (ignoring additional required rebalancing changes to keep it simple).


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:04:19


Post by: yukishiro1


They explicitly said Xenos weapons are getting made more deadly too, and Xenos stats are being adjusted, but in both cases not until their codexes (unless it's something like power swords that happen to be cross faction).

If you're going to fundamentally inflate stats, the start of an edition is the time to do it. Doing it book by book is mental.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:05:08


Post by: Irkjoe


Makes my army better so it's good, don't care about any other effect.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:05:21


Post by: nekooni


 Insectum7 wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.


why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4? Against most small arms, and therefore most infantry firefights, it's 2W by a mile.

Didn't claim it would be better or equivalent, just that they DID get something to make them tougher (literally) and that it's a good thing that not every troop choice now gets promoted to 2W T4 or whatever, but that units get tougher in different ways.
It sucks having something that was once "better than" slowly become "worse than". It's an erosion of unit identity for Space Mareins uber-alles.


You're complaining about Immortals being buffed back to T5 here. It's not being degraded, it's getting buffed - just in a different way than Marines.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:06:08


Post by: nordsturmking


I am ok with it as long as other armys like custodes get more wounds as well. Custodes become less and less good compared to marines. An assault Terminator with TH and SS will have a 1+ and 4++ save or 2+ and 3++ 3 wounds and 4dmg on the thunder hammer. so a custodes Guardian will have only 2 stats which are better: 2+ to hit and T5. The weapons are not even close the marine has 4dmg instead of d3 and S8 instead of S6


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:06:44


Post by: ERJAK


I feel like it's largely irrelevant. It's the MELTA change that's going to have the biggest impact on the game.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:08:13


Post by: Cruentus


My predictions:

1) I'm going to assume that Primaris get an additional would, taking them to 3, thereby making them still superior to the old marines

2) They're going to tweak all the weapon profiles (i.e. making them do more damage - be prepared to see more D2 weapons) - thereby making 2W troops die just as easily

3) GW will never make it through the entire development cycle to get all the 40k codexes out to this "new" approach. Never have, never will. Halfway through, someone will change their mind, and they'll go off in a new direction.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:08:34


Post by: nekooni


yukishiro1 wrote:
They explicitly said Xenos weapons are getting made more deadly too, and Xenos stats are being adjusted, but in both cases not until their codexes (unless it's something like power swords that happen to be cross faction).

If you're going to fundamentally inflate stats, the start of an edition is the time to do it. Doing it book by book is mental.

Yes, that still does not mean - on it's own - that your Xenos' will be worse off right now.

If they overshoot weapon price adjustments for Marines, for example turning all the 5 pts melee weapons to 20pts upgrades, you're clearly getting the better deal by NOT getting updated.

It does not matter how much Strength or Damage a weapon has - if you're charged too much for that, it's not a good weapon. Even if it's S16 3D4 Damage.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:09:33


Post by: yukishiro1


nekooni wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Also, because the wounds are being inflated only on old marines, but the weapons are being inflated for everyone, the net result is greater lethality in the game, not less. So New 9th will be even more lethal than Launch 9th which was even more lethal than 8th which was...you get the picture.

I don't think what the game needed was more stat inflation, more engineered imbalance between factions, and greater lethality.

Again - what inflation? If all the marine weapons that get buffed get an appropiate price increase, there'll still be the same fire power on the table since you'll only bring half as many Multimeltas as before (ignoring additional required rebalancing changes to keep it simple).


They didn't say that weapons are getting rebalanced points costs; that's specifically in the section about stat increases. In fact, reading between the lines, it seems pretty clear the current points values are the 9th points values. Why did multimeltas go UP in points in 9th while lascannons went down? It makes no sense..unless they get 2 shots and extra damage at close range. Why did power swords go up to 5 points? Makes no sense...unless they got +1 STR.

Most importantly of all, why did heavy bolters go up massively in cost? This makes absolutely, completely no sense at all...unless they're going to D2.

Weapon inflation has already been baked into points costs, at least for imperium weapons.

But it doesn't really matter either way, even if the weapon damage inflation is pointed out, it still results in a game where one faction suddenly becomes massively more powerful than other factions. The fact that other factions may be able to compensate by throwing more bodies at it doesn't change that dynamic. For months and months, Space Marine supermen will be fighting with new stat profiles and new weapon deadliness while everyone else will, at best, be compensating by bringing more gimped bodies while they wait for their own super saiyan moding. That's just bizarre, especially when they just had a new edition launch, the ideal, obviously time to do a fundamental stat rebalance if that's what they wanted to do.

There is simply no world in which doing a fundamental change of game stats codex-by-codex instead of all at once at the start of an edition makes any sort of sense.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:10:04


Post by: Insectum7


nekooni wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.


why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4? Against most small arms, and therefore most infantry firefights, it's 2W by a mile.

Didn't claim it would be better or equivalent, just that they DID get something to make them tougher (literally) and that it's a good thing that not every troop choice now gets promoted to 2W T4 or whatever, but that units get tougher in different ways.
It sucks having something that was once "better than" slowly become "worse than". It's an erosion of unit identity for Space Mareins uber-alles.


You're complaining about Immortals being buffed back to T5 here. It's not being degraded, it's getting buffed - just in a different way than Marines.
No sir. I am complaining about how the Stats of Immortals have eroded over time in comparison to marines. Quite different.

Immortals, used to be tougher than Marines. Same wounds, higher T value. Then they went to same T value, same wounds. Now they are at higher T value, fewer wounds. Their resiliency as a unit has degraded over time in comparison to marines.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:11:34


Post by: Siegfriedfr


 Mixzremixzd wrote:
WarCom article to read some other changes for yourself.

Simple question, interested to see what the data from Dakka looks like.


I feel like GW is schizophrenic, they were that close to retiring oldmarines, and try to make them relevant again.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:12:32


Post by: tneva82


 Insectum7 wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.


why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4? Against most small arms, and therefore most infantry firefights, it's 2W by a mile.

.


The 2 are fairly even though. Immortal wounds on 3+, marine on 5+. Same cost. You lose out vs s3.

You win against d2 weapon that will be more and more common. And s8 weapons


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:12:38


Post by: Sim-Life


I don't care.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:13:32


Post by: Insectum7


Siegfriedfr wrote:
 Mixzremixzd wrote:
WarCom article to read some other changes for yourself.

Simple question, interested to see what the data from Dakka looks like.


I feel like GW is schizophrenic, they were that close to retiring oldmarines, and try to make them relevant again.
They're cranking the churn. That said, I like this move from the point of CSMs in particular. I really don't like how it's playing out with Necrons.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:14:38


Post by: Gadzilla666


I like it. Finally csm can be equal to primaris, Chosen are actually flat out better than intercessors, and Warp Talons: 2W T4 3+ 5++. Mini terminators with jump packs, who even with their old stats could turn a squad of intercessors into bloody confetti for 1CP.

Yeah, I like it. I like it a lot.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:16:00


Post by: Daedalus81


Siegfriedfr wrote:
 Mixzremixzd wrote:
WarCom article to read some other changes for yourself.

Simple question, interested to see what the data from Dakka looks like.


I feel like GW is schizophrenic, they were that close to retiring oldmarines, and try to make them relevant again.


Schizophrenic, because the community asserted their intent from the get go?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:16:07


Post by: Mixzremixzd


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I like it. Finally csm can be equal to primaris, Chosen are actually flat out better than intercessors, and Warp Talons: 2W T4 3+ 5++. Mini terminators with jump packs, who even with their old stats could turn a squad of intercessors into bloody confetti for 1CP.

Yeah, I like it. I like it a lot.


This. Looks Like I may cut my Necrons early and finally invest in the CSM I've been fence-sitting on


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:18:15


Post by: Insectum7


tneva82 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.


why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4? Against most small arms, and therefore most infantry firefights, it's 2W by a mile.

.


The 2 are fairly even though. Immortal wounds on 3+, marine on 5+. Same cost. You lose out vs s3.

You win against d2 weapon that will be more and more common. And s8 weapons
Imo Immortals should have a definite advantage against Marines in a firefight, not be roughly equal. Plasma gets no benefit to overcharge against Immortals, while plasma will be forced to overcharge against Marines.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:18:38


Post by: Daedalus81


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I like it. Finally csm can be equal to primaris, Chosen are actually flat out better than intercessors, and Warp Talons: 2W T4 3+ 5++. Mini terminators with jump packs, who even with their old stats could turn a squad of intercessors into bloody confetti for 1CP.

Yeah, I like it. I like it a lot.


I wouldn't expect strategms to survive as is. This is another thing people are glossing over in the rush to "REEEEEEEEE WHY NOT NOW?!". 20 Noise Marines with 2 wounds with current strats? I don't think so.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:19:48


Post by: nekooni


yukishiro1 wrote:
nekooni wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Also, because the wounds are being inflated only on old marines, but the weapons are being inflated for everyone, the net result is greater lethality in the game, not less. So New 9th will be even more lethal than Launch 9th which was even more lethal than 8th which was...you get the picture.

I don't think what the game needed was more stat inflation, more engineered imbalance between factions, and greater lethality.

Again - what inflation? If all the marine weapons that get buffed get an appropiate price increase, there'll still be the same fire power on the table since you'll only bring half as many Multimeltas as before (ignoring additional required rebalancing changes to keep it simple).


They didn't say that weapons are getting rebalanced points costs; that's specifically in the section about stat increases. In fact, reading between the lines, it seems pretty clear the current points values are the 9th points values. Why did multimeltas go UP in points in 9th while lascannons went down? It makes no sense..unless they get 2 shots and extra damage at close range. Why did power swords go up to 5 points? Makes no sense...unless they got +1 STR.

Most importantly of all, why did heavy bolters go up massively in cost? This makes absolutely, completely no sense at all...unless they're going to D2.

Weapon inflation has already been baked into points costs, at least for imperium weapons.

But it doesn't really matter either way, even if the weapon damage inflation is pointed out, it still results in a game where one faction suddenly becomes massively more powerful than other factions. The fact that other factions may be able to compensate by throwing more bodies at it doesn't change that dynamic. For months and months, Space Marine supermen will be fighting with new stat profiles and new weapon deadliness while everyone else will, at best, be compensating by bringing more gimped bodies while they wait for their own super saiyan moding. That's just bizarre, especially when they just had a new edition launch, the ideal, obviously time to do a fundamental stat rebalance if that's what they wanted to do.

There is simply no world in which doing a fundamental change of game stats codex-by-codex instead of all at once at the start of an edition makes any sort of sense.

- We do not know if weapon prices will be adjusted, but looking at this from any reasonable point of view results in coming to the conclusion that a 2 shot MM is not fine at 25 points. It needs to go up when it's going to be twice as powerful. It's literally a Twin Multimelta then, so pricing will be have to be adjusted. A MM right now for 25pts is not utter garbage, I'd know, being a Salamanders player. It's just slightly overpriced, not "twice as expensive as it should be".

- You're confusing "powerful faction" with "powerful units". Knights have very powerful units, but that does not automatically make them a powerful faction. Same goes for any unit. What makes a faction powerful is when they're more points efficient than other armies (to keep it simple).

- Editions are not usually used to redo every single datasheet, 8th edition was very much an exception.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:19:59


Post by: Crimson


It is a bit weird, but I like it.

I will only use primaris models, but this makes it not-weird to use primaris-based conversions as old marines. Old marine veterans can be full primaris and perhaps non-veteran old marines can be some sort of primaris noobs who have not yet learned their second attack? My head is buzzing with ideas how I can model this. Very exiting.

Also a huge deal for Chaos. I will finally make CSM force I have wanted for years. At last they're not utter wimps.

Now I think that certain xenos units should have gotten a power boost as well. Immortals for example should have gotten a second wound too, and I can certainly understand that people are miffed about that.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:21:07


Post by: nekooni


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I like it. Finally csm can be equal to primaris, Chosen are actually flat out better than intercessors, and Warp Talons: 2W T4 3+ 5++. Mini terminators with jump packs, who even with their old stats could turn a squad of intercessors into bloody confetti for 1CP.

Yeah, I like it. I like it a lot.


I wouldn't expect strategms to survive as is. This is another thing people are glossing over in the rush to "REEEEEEEEE WHY NOT NOW?!". 20 Noise Marines with 2 wounds with current strats? I don't think so.

The PA books are supposed to stay around, so are the SM supplements - so many many stratagems will probably stay.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:21:13


Post by: bullyboy


 Vaktathi wrote:
Mostly for me, between gaming venues being closed, the release of a new edition to learn, the hamfisted points "rebalancing" for 9E, the changes to a slew of weapons, and all the Marine changes, it means 40k is essentially "on hold" for me for the foreseeable future until there's some sort of marginally stable metagame and rebalancing for a significant number of non-SM factions comes into play, as right now it feels like 9E is essentially still in an early pre-release state, a game that was released before it really knew what it wanted to be and is still undergoing primary development.

This is close to how I feel. i want to play 9th edition right now, but I feel that the game I'm going to be playing really isn't 9th...it's pre 9th, it's pretty damn weird. I have 3 marine variant armies (Dark Angels, Deathwatch and Ravenguard) and playing them now is going to be nothing like playing them in October, so why would I start making lists etc?

Really strange decision


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:22:30


Post by: Not Online!!!


And once again thanks to the artificially stretched out release schedule some factions are just more equal then others .


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:22:52


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I like it. Finally csm can be equal to primaris, Chosen are actually flat out better than intercessors, and Warp Talons: 2W T4 3+ 5++. Mini terminators with jump packs, who even with their old stats could turn a squad of intercessors into bloody confetti for 1CP.

Yeah, I like it. I like it a lot.


I wouldn't expect strategms to survive as is. This is another thing people are glossing over in the rush to "REEEEEEEEE WHY NOT NOW?!". 20 Noise Marines with 2 wounds with current strats? I don't think so.

Dang it Daed, can't you let a salty old Veteran of The Long War be happy for a little while?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:23:42


Post by: yukishiro1


I'm not confusing anything with anything. Please read what I actually wrote. I specifically addressed the second point. The fact that the inflation of marine stats may not directly result in marines becoming even more overpowered than they already are on an army-wide level doesn't change anything about how stupid it is to have a game where one faction suddenly gets massively more powerful on a per-model basis, then the same thing happens to the next faction 6 months down the road, while in the meantime they are total gimps in comparison while they wait for their own codex.

Suppose they suddenly decided to triple all the stat values for space marines, and increased points accordingly, then announced they'd do the same for every faction, but codex-by-codex over a period of years. Would it still be "balanced?" Maybe, but surely you can see how stupid an approach that would be, rather than simply doing it all at once?

Most editions didn't have fundamental rebalances of stats. They just announced that they intend to increase the stats of all weapons and all models across the whole game to make weapons deadlier and models more powerful. If you're going to do that, it should be at the start of an edition, not faction by faction over a period of years.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:24:09


Post by: LunarSol


 bullyboy wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Mostly for me, between gaming venues being closed, the release of a new edition to learn, the hamfisted points "rebalancing" for 9E, the changes to a slew of weapons, and all the Marine changes, it means 40k is essentially "on hold" for me for the foreseeable future until there's some sort of marginally stable metagame and rebalancing for a significant number of non-SM factions comes into play, as right now it feels like 9E is essentially still in an early pre-release state, a game that was released before it really knew what it wanted to be and is still undergoing primary development.

This is close to how I feel. i want to play 9th edition right now, but I feel that the game I'm going to be playing really isn't 9th...it's pre 9th, it's pretty damn weird. I have 3 marine variant armies (Dark Angels, Deathwatch and Ravenguard) and playing them now is going to be nothing like playing them in October, so why would I start making lists etc?

Really strange decision


Basically the way 8th worked between index and codex releases. I maintain a working list to play the game because its fun to do so, but holding off on designing anything until the codex gives me a longer lasting set of rules to work with.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:24:31


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


IMO, this is pretty gross. The game doesn't need more wounds for basic infantry.

The multimelta change is also pretty gross, but mostly the Heavy 2: +2 Damage or something should always have been baked in.

But, now we're back in the awkward position of the secondary little gakky guns on a tank being more dangerous than the primary one.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:25:10


Post by: Xenomancers


You guys are getting heavily trolled.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:26:34


Post by: Insectum7


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

But, now we're back in the awkward position of the secondary little gakky guns on a tank being more dangerous than the primary one.
Well they do have to get a LOT closer.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:27:22


Post by: yukishiro1


 LunarSol wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Mostly for me, between gaming venues being closed, the release of a new edition to learn, the hamfisted points "rebalancing" for 9E, the changes to a slew of weapons, and all the Marine changes, it means 40k is essentially "on hold" for me for the foreseeable future until there's some sort of marginally stable metagame and rebalancing for a significant number of non-SM factions comes into play, as right now it feels like 9E is essentially still in an early pre-release state, a game that was released before it really knew what it wanted to be and is still undergoing primary development.

This is close to how I feel. i want to play 9th edition right now, but I feel that the game I'm going to be playing really isn't 9th...it's pre 9th, it's pretty damn weird. I have 3 marine variant armies (Dark Angels, Deathwatch and Ravenguard) and playing them now is going to be nothing like playing them in October, so why would I start making lists etc?

Really strange decision


Basically the way 8th worked between index and codex releases. I maintain a working list to play the game because its fun to do so, but holding off on designing anything until the codex gives me a longer lasting set of rules to work with.


But it isn't like that at all. These changes are far more fundamental and wide-sweeping than anything you saw between index and codex in 8th. You didn't see the basic weapons and basic stats of models completely change from index to codex across the entire faction line.

It's more like if they had released 8th while still using 7th edition stats, then updated each faction's stats to 8th edition stats codex by codex. It's a truly bizarre decision.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:28:16


Post by: Unit1126PLL


40k has jumped the shark in more ways than just 2W Tactical Marines. It's just emblematic of a much bigger problem.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:30:15


Post by: JNAProductions


 Irkjoe wrote:
Makes my army better so it's good, don't care about any other effect.
What a small-minded view.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:32:26


Post by: yukishiro1


I think somebody failed their sarcasm detection check.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:34:01


Post by: Unit1126PLL


yukishiro1 wrote:
I think somebody failed their sarcasm detection check.


Personally, my sarcasm detector has been broken since some of the WARCOM 9th edition articles. It was honestly hard to tell if they were being humorous or serious or what. Like even now this 2 wound tactical marine article - the guy told to write it seems to be wavering between dramatic oversell and sheer biting sarcasm.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:35:59


Post by: Kanluwen


 Cruentus wrote:
My predictions:

1) I'm going to assume that Primaris get an additional would, taking them to 3, thereby making them still superior to the old marines

They're not.
That’s right – it won’t just be Primaris Marines on 2 Wounds anymore! All of a sudden, a lot of units that may have felt a bit left behind become very durable and appealing. From Battle Company units such as Assault, Devastator and Tactical Marines, to the elite Terminators of the 1st Company (who will be increased to 3 Wounds accordingly), the first born will be back to prove to their Primaris battle-brothers their great worth.

And as for future codexes for other genetically engineered transhuman warriors (both of the shiny grey and spikey variety), the same will apply to them. Just think how durable that will make units like Rubric Marines or Plague Marines.

Anything Marine that isn't a Scout will start at 2W.

2) They're going to tweak all the weapon profiles (i.e. making them do more damage - be prepared to see more D2 weapons) - thereby making 2W troops die just as easily

Maybe, maybe not. More likely than not most Heavy Weapons will at least clock in with 2W minimum. Or at least something that allows for them to either do an additional Wound that can still be saved against or a Mortal Wound in addition to normal damage.


3) GW will never make it through the entire development cycle to get all the 40k codexes out to this "new" approach. Never have, never will. Halfway through, someone will change their mind, and they'll go off in a new direction.

Maybe, maybe not.

They've cut out a big chunk of codices though. No DA, SW, BA, or Deathwatch standalone books going forward.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:39:42


Post by: Voss


yukishiro1 wrote:

It's more like if they had released 8th while still using 7th edition stats, then updated each faction's stats to 8th edition stats codex by codex. It's a truly bizarre decision.


Its actually bigger than that.
Its somewhat debatable, but I'd be willing to argue that this is a change and shakeup at least on par with the 2nd to 3rd transition, because while that fundamentally changed a lot of weapons (like the poor shuriken catapult and the assault cannon will forever miss its d10 damage die), the non-vehicle unit stats didn't change in a major way, at least not globally (there were actual faction specific updates, but they only affected their own army).

That its happening piecemeal after the edition launch is a major ball drop. Seriously the only thing that would shock me more is if Stormcasts wandered into Bloodbowl for its edition change.

Actually.... hrm. A lot of BB things are changing too, from what I understand.
Has there been a major personnel shakeup in the studio lately? Anyone know?

Because major paradigm shifts usually indicate something happened behind the scenes.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:40:43


Post by: the_scotsman


nekooni wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Mixed tbh.

In principle - sure.

In practice though, this feels like:
*WELCOME TO 9TH!*
Shouldn't this have been in an index, or a rulebook, or something?
*NO! FULL SPEED AHEAD MARINE CODEX IS THE NEW RULEBOOK GO GO GO!*

The issue isn't really marines.

I am concerned about a major nerf to D1 weapons, that will now be even worse than they were in a Primaris meta.
I'm also concerned with *expensive* 1 wound models (mainly xenos) being really bad comparably.
I am concerned that in turn the meta will become the equivalent of Starcannon spam for everyone - where D2 is the new AP3. Which potentially inflicts a soft nerf on vehicles/monsters.
Speaking of, I am worried that 2 shot multimeltas that get +2 damage in 12" are ludicrous and make every other comparable anti-tank weapon a joke.

I'm looking at that supposedly leaked datasheet on the Heavy Lokhust and crying at *just how bad* it is compared with the buggy, pre any special rules.


Marines becoming 2W is actually kind of a buff to elite 1W xenos units - people will bring more 2D weapons to deal with them, which are in turn worse than 1D weapons vs your 1W Xenos models. That's assuming they get the points right for the new Marine codex.

And when you redesign a Faction, why wouldn't you use the Codex for that? Unit datasheets have no place in the BRB.


Yeah but mostly I'm wondering what the heck I'm supposed to do with basic xenos units, not elite ones.

what the heck is a 9ppm fething kabalite warrior for? It's becoming more and more evident to me that I just need to not take troops, because why the hell would I, what are their pathetic little peashooters going to do?

EIGHTY-ONE points of kabalite warriors to kill EIGHTEEN points of tactical marines? Really?

-they wound vehicles on a 6
-they lose efficiency vs t3 because of poison

what the hell is a kabalite for?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:42:24


Post by: Nazrak


I'm into it, although I do agree with this:
Voss wrote:

I do think they should have scrapped all the books and gone with a Ravening Hordes 'get-you-by' update if they wanted to do sweeping changes like this.
Messing with unit and weapon stats makes this feel like a bigger update than 7th to 8th. They've created a muddle of unnecessary uncertainty and are now sprinting to keep up, and have now created a situation where they have to speed churn the codexes for everybody out again, because no one is going to want to wait 2-4 years for their turn to have real weapons and unit upgrades.


Pretty much the only thing I didn't like about 8th, other than Primaris Marines, was legacy stats being carried straight over from 7th, rather than taking the opportunity to rejig them and make things work how they "should". Better late than never, I guess, and hopefully this bodes well for other factions getting similar adjustments (I'm looking at you, Eldar).


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:43:34


Post by: Insectum7


the_scotsman wrote:

Yeah but mostly I'm wondering what the heck I'm supposed to do with basic xenos units, not elite ones.

what the heck is a 9ppm fething kabalite warrior for? It's becoming more and more evident to me that I just need to not take troops, because why the hell would I, what are their pathetic little peashooters going to do?

EIGHTY-ONE points of kabalite warriors to kill EIGHTEEN points of tactical marines? Really?

-they wound vehicles on a 6
-they lose efficiency vs t3 because of poison

what the hell is a kabalite for?
Right? Like what are my Gaunts for? What's happening to Genestealers? Stealers better be getting 2D on their claws or something.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:46:24


Post by: yukishiro1


You'll get 2D stealer claws 2 years from now, right before SM 3.0 gives minimarines 3 wounds and primaris 4 wounds. It's more fun when each faction gets Super Saiyaned one after the other, that way you can buy the models of each Super Saiyan faction in turn!


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:46:56


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Yeah. Daemonettes too. Not that they were good before, but now they're worse. This is basically apocalyptic for non-imperial factions that wanted to try to build balanced lists.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:47:32


Post by: Voss


the_scotsman wrote:

what the hell is a kabalite for?


Dying for Ynnead.

Seriously, I don't want to be too doom and gloom about Dark and Craftworld eldar, I really don't. But 9th has stomped them hard, and this piecemeal reveal drama... Well.
WarCom wrote:Now that we’ve all had a bit of time to get our heads around the new core rules, the next big shake-ups will come with this edition’s codexes. There are some big – and we mean full-on seismic – changes on their way.

Yeah. 'Big and full-on seismic' would be a way of dealing with the fact that eldar just don't work the way GW has traditionally done them. Cue blob faction and new units to replace a lot of stuff that has languished for decades now.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Right? Like what are my Gaunts for? What's happening to Genestealers? Stealers better be getting 2D on their claws or something.


d3 damage. Genestealers canonically tear terminator armor apart like paper.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:48:16


Post by: Brother Castor


My old school Ultramarines army just became new school

To the Rhino boys! It's time for a beer


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:49:19


Post by: yukishiro1


It is honestly mind-boggling to me that GW didn't get out ahead of the obvious reaction people are going to have to them making "full-on seismic" changes codex by codex instead of all at once on launch. There should have been a statement on warhammer-community at least attempting to PR this in some way that makes sense, instead of what they posted, something that actually, if anything, plays up the fact that it's happening piecemeal and everyone else will have to wait for their Super Saiyan upgrades.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:49:34


Post by: Daedalus81


 Insectum7 wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.


why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4?


What's the base cost for the W1 model?

What happens when a Heavy Bolter (now D2) hits both of those units?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:49:35


Post by: Voss


 Brother Castor wrote:
My old school Ultramarines army just became new school

To the Rhino boys! It's time for a beer


Oh that's a good point.

Does this mean we can simplify Space Marine Transport Tetris?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:49:39


Post by: the_scotsman


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
that wanted to try to build balanced lists.


If you've played 9 editions of 40k and don't just build every list as a skew to beat marines are you really playing 40k?

An anti-infantry weapon? Pffff, I don't need those, everyone plays power armor. Only reason I say "what is a kabalite for" is because I KNOW what a genestealer cult neophyte is for, he's for standing in front of a pair of SEISMIC CANNONS BABY and sitting in a box packed with autocannons.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:50:01


Post by: Crimson


Speaking of Rhinos, I really hope they lift the silly transport restrictions allowing the marines to work as a coherent whole.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:50:48


Post by: Daedalus81


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah. Daemonettes too. Not that they were good before, but now they're worse. This is basically apocalyptic for non-imperial factions that wanted to try to build balanced lists.


I find it absolutely hilarious like you're all pretending that Primaris didn't exist for 3 years. All of their models containing "better weapons".


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:51:41


Post by: Unit1126PLL


the_scotsman wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
that wanted to try to build balanced lists.


If you've played 9 editions of 40k and don't just build every list as a skew to beat marines are you really playing 40k?

An anti-infantry weapon? Pffff, I don't need those, everyone plays power armor. Only reason I say "what is a kabalite for" is because I KNOW what a genestealer cult neophyte is for, he's for standing in front of a pair of SEISMIC CANNONS BABY and sitting in a box packed with autocannons.


I play the Horus Heresy and I don't even skew to beat marines. You never had to, marines were (kinda sorta not really) a balanced part of the game.

This? This you have to skew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah. Daemonettes too. Not that they were good before, but now they're worse. This is basically apocalyptic for non-imperial factions that wanted to try to build balanced lists.


I find it absolutely hilarious like you're all pretending that Primaris didn't exist for 3 years. All of their models containing "better weapons".


Pretending? No, I didn't like Primaris either.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:56:39


Post by: nekooni


the_scotsman wrote:
nekooni wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Mixed tbh.

In principle - sure.

In practice though, this feels like:
*WELCOME TO 9TH!*
Shouldn't this have been in an index, or a rulebook, or something?
*NO! FULL SPEED AHEAD MARINE CODEX IS THE NEW RULEBOOK GO GO GO!*

The issue isn't really marines.

I am concerned about a major nerf to D1 weapons, that will now be even worse than they were in a Primaris meta.
I'm also concerned with *expensive* 1 wound models (mainly xenos) being really bad comparably.
I am concerned that in turn the meta will become the equivalent of Starcannon spam for everyone - where D2 is the new AP3. Which potentially inflicts a soft nerf on vehicles/monsters.
Speaking of, I am worried that 2 shot multimeltas that get +2 damage in 12" are ludicrous and make every other comparable anti-tank weapon a joke.

I'm looking at that supposedly leaked datasheet on the Heavy Lokhust and crying at *just how bad* it is compared with the buggy, pre any special rules.


Marines becoming 2W is actually kind of a buff to elite 1W xenos units - people will bring more 2D weapons to deal with them, which are in turn worse than 1D weapons vs your 1W Xenos models. That's assuming they get the points right for the new Marine codex.

And when you redesign a Faction, why wouldn't you use the Codex for that? Unit datasheets have no place in the BRB.


Yeah but mostly I'm wondering what the heck I'm supposed to do with basic xenos units, not elite ones.

what the heck is a 9ppm fething kabalite warrior for? It's becoming more and more evident to me that I just need to not take troops, because why the hell would I, what are their pathetic little peashooters going to do?

EIGHTY-ONE points of kabalite warriors to kill EIGHTEEN points of tactical marines? Really?

-they wound vehicles on a 6
-they lose efficiency vs t3 because of poison

what the hell is a kabalite for?

Look, I won't argue that Kabalites are not WAY overpriced, because they clearly are. They need to be fixed, but 2W marines have absolutely nothing to do with that. Your kabalite warriors are bottom tier right now, and they will be when the SM Codex comes out.
The issue is that the Field Manual is a joke, and that's hitting many units across many factions.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:57:20


Post by: Insectum7


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.


why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4?


What's the base cost for the W1 model?

What happens when a Heavy Bolter (now D2) hits both of those units?
Actually less relevant to me than the comparative resilience of units from a non-pointed/lore standpoint. The question I ask is, where do I think Immortal Resilience should be in relation to most Marines, and my answer to that is "at least equal, preferably better". The circumstance now is "depends on the weapons, but generally worse, especially when it comes to small arms." Which I find quite irritating.

There's a gravitas in the identity of the unit that is eroded.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 17:59:40


Post by: Daedalus81


 Insectum7 wrote:
Actually less relevant to me than the comparative resilience of units from a non-pointed/lore standpoint. The question I ask is, where do I think Immortal Resilience should be in relation to most Marines, and my answer to that is "at least equal, preferably better". The circumstance now is "depends on the weapons, but generally worse, especially when it comes to small arms." Which I find quite irritating.

There's a gravitas in the identity of the unit that is eroded.


Fair point. I can't argue that.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:00:04


Post by: skchsan


I for one think this is a healthy rock-paper-scissor change.

-2D weapons get a boost as it will have a greater pool of units it invalidates (2W models).
-2W models do better against 1D weapons (has double wound pool).
-1D weapons have higher rate of return on its points expenditure against 1W models (opportunity cost of 2D weapons are wasted).

So, 2-wound models are countered by 2 damage weapons, and it 'counters' 1D weapons; 1D weapons 'counter' (more efficiently) 1W models than 2D weapons and gets countered by 2W models; 2D weapons counter 2W models but gets 'countered' by hordes.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:00:30


Post by: Xenomancers


Will primaris be able to ride in rhinos now? Likewise can sterngaurd ride in impulors? Clearly the size difference between models isn't that significant if they are all t4 3+ with 2 wounds....like...I've seriously never been so disappointed in GW - if this passed the checks you are better off not playing the game.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:01:04


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Insectum, you're hitting on a point I've been trying to make for a while.

40k is now a (war)game in which plastic models stand on a table, their owners roll dice.

It is no longer a war(game), in which assembled armies of hostile foes engage each-other in a pitched battle (abstracted by models and dice).


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:04:09


Post by: Mixzremixzd


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Insectum, you're hitting on a point I've been trying to make for a while.

40k is now a (war)game in which plastic models stand on a table, their owners roll dice.

It is no longer a war(game), in which assembled armies of hostile foes engage each-other in a pitched battle (abstracted by models and dice).


You're gonna have to fill me in as I started playing earnestly in 6th (or 7th?), when was 40k ever portrayed that way and how?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:05:05


Post by: yukishiro1


Rock paper scissors balancing is lame for competitive games. It just increases the chances that matches are determined at the list-building stage, rather than based on how each player performs once the models hit the table.

Varying efficiency of weapons based on profile makes sense, but the game is already varied enough in profiles. There's no competitive reason to make hard counters stronger than they already are. The game didn't need more 2W infantry in order to further increase the bonuses for having just the right weapon in your list to perfectly counter an opposing unit.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:07:23


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Mixzremixzd wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Insectum, you're hitting on a point I've been trying to make for a while.

40k is now a (war)game in which plastic models stand on a table, their owners roll dice.

It is no longer a war(game), in which assembled armies of hostile foes engage each-other in a pitched battle (abstracted by models and dice).


You're gonna have to fill me in as I started playing earnestly in 6th (or 7th?), when was 40k ever portrayed that way and how?


It's been an uphill and downhill struggle between editions but Epic was pretty good and 4th edition was pretty good. HH is also pretty good, and though it uses the 7th edition architecture, it does a bit better in the 'modeling strategic maneuver/communications/etc.' department. It's more "realistic" in general.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:10:13


Post by: Mixzremixzd


Realistic like armour facings on vehicles and weapons locked to degrees of movement? Not trying to be snarky just genuinely curious if that's what you mean.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:10:38


Post by: Insectum7


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Actually less relevant to me than the comparative resilience of units from a non-pointed/lore standpoint. The question I ask is, where do I think Immortal Resilience should be in relation to most Marines, and my answer to that is "at least equal, preferably better". The circumstance now is "depends on the weapons, but generally worse, especially when it comes to small arms." Which I find quite irritating.

There's a gravitas in the identity of the unit that is eroded.


Fair point. I can't argue that.


It's a sort of thing which seems to be happening even more at the moment. For Necrons, when I started with Necrons their design space was sorta "Tougher than Marines, but with rigid options". And now they're just really not tougher. There's a core faction identity that's gone missing.

Aspect Warriors are the other big thing for me. "As Elite as a Marine, except more specialized." And now they often seem to underperform in their specialty against Marines. It hurts the identity of the units in question, and they suddenly seem less cool from a lore/conceptual standpoint.

I worry about Tyranids. I hope Tyranid Warriors get some goood upgrades.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:13:53


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Mixzremixzd wrote:
Realistic like armour facings on vehicles and weapons locked to degrees of movement? Not trying to be snarky just genuinely curious if that's what you mean.


Among other things, yes. Realistic like having to point guns at targets, cover and line of sight making more sense (esp. 4th edition) than it has since, the way reserves function (you don't have to have a special rule to be held off the table, so you can have Tactical Marines in mechanized transports as a reserve maneuver element for example), the way Daemons deploy makes more sense in 30k than they ever did in 40k for how daemons are in "reality" (of the 40k setting), all sorts of stuff.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:14:21


Post by: skchsan


yukishiro1 wrote:
Rock paper scissors balancing is lame for competitive games. It just increases the chances that matches are determined at the list-building stage, rather than based on how each player performs once the models hit the table.

Varying efficiency of weapons based on profile makes sense, but the game is already varied enough in profiles. There's no competitive reason to make hard counters stronger than they already are. The game didn't need more 2W infantry in order to further increase the bonuses for having just the right weapon in your list to perfectly counter an opposing unit.
Hard counter system diminishes the effectiveness of 'all-eggs-in-one-basket' type of lists. Such system further promotes 'healthier' lists where one needs to bring a good balance of units rather than focusing on single aspect, namely, the killyness.

It's a nice bump to elite armies. Now the game can become 'expendable fodders vs. lumbering warmachines... and elite infantries'.

Also, due to the plethora of 2D weapons, taking 2W models were always a liability. In practice, 2W models died faster than 1W models because 1W models could be ignored for the most part of the game, and all these 2D weapons you brought needed to be pointing at something - and no one in their right mind will choose to target 1W model over 2W model.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:16:03


Post by: Mixzremixzd


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Mixzremixzd wrote:
Realistic like armour facings on vehicles and weapons locked to degrees of movement? Not trying to be snarky just genuinely curious if that's what you mean.


Among other things, yes. Realistic like having to point guns at targets, cover and line of sight making more sense (esp. 4th edition) than it has since, the way reserves function (you don't have to have a special rule to be held off the table, so you can have Tactical Marines in mechanized transports as a reserve maneuver element for example), the way Daemons deploy makes more sense in 30k than they ever did in 40k for how daemons are in "reality" (of the 40k setting), all sorts of stuff.


Can't speak for Daemons but hasn't 9th already addressed these issues? TLOS aside aren't the current terrain rules and strategic reserve exactly what you're referencing here?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:18:19


Post by: Voss


 Insectum7 wrote:

I worry about Tyranids. I hope Tyranid Warriors get some goood upgrades.


Definitely need a major overhaul. I remember hating taking them. I felt I absolutely had to have the backup synapse coverage, but they always fell over to a stiff breeze. (this was 4th/5th editions).


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:20:09


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Mixzremixzd wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Mixzremixzd wrote:
Realistic like armour facings on vehicles and weapons locked to degrees of movement? Not trying to be snarky just genuinely curious if that's what you mean.


Among other things, yes. Realistic like having to point guns at targets, cover and line of sight making more sense (esp. 4th edition) than it has since, the way reserves function (you don't have to have a special rule to be held off the table, so you can have Tactical Marines in mechanized transports as a reserve maneuver element for example), the way Daemons deploy makes more sense in 30k than they ever did in 40k for how daemons are in "reality" (of the 40k setting), all sorts of stuff.


Can't speak for Daemons but hasn't 9th already addressed these issues? TLOS aside aren't the current terrain rules and strategic reserve exactly what you're referencing here?


Not really. Armor facings and gun traversing is still not relevant (except to hurt you if you want to move your gun, since a Vanquisher Tank traversing its turret ~60 degrees or more now moves further than half its move and can only shoot once). Reserves aren't uncertain like they are in earlier editions (back in the day and in Horus Heresy, if you /do/ hold something in reserve, its arrival is uncertain by default. Different rules can make it more or less uncertain - enhanced communications arrays for example make it much more likely for reserves to operate in a coordinated fashion, while communications jamming or Air Interdiction strikes on the part of your foe can make their arrival timing less certain, etc).

The terrain rules for 9th are in a weird hybrid space, which makes them less realistic in my view than if GW had gone one way or another. For example, in 4th edition, woods blocked LOS. In HH, woods can be seen through with TLOS but shooting through the terrain grants a cover save. In 9th edition, Woods never block LOS, and you can fire through them with impunity. If your opponent and you agree they're "Dense" (by some arbitrary metric), then you have -1 to shoot through them, but only if you have less than 18 wounds (so a Land Raider benefits but not a Malcador, despite the fact that the Malcador is a smaller, more compact, more easily hidden tank).


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:23:00


Post by: Tyel


the_scotsman wrote:
what the hell is a kabalite for?


Carrying a blast pistol?

Tbh it just sort of feels like powerlessness.
Okay, lets bring Kab's back to something sensible - like 7 points.
But... so what? It still takes a horde of them to kill a Marine.
Stick the Marine in cover - and, assuming no flayed skull, it takes twice the horde. (Even more if we chuck in obscuring.)

So I guess all you have is hoping GW get drunk and make blasters assault 3, or shredders are upgraded to disies.

Bad drug load out versus Marines perhaps - but it would take 5.4 wyches with 5 S3 attacks to kill 1 tactical Marine. Which seems kind of terrible.
But hey, maybe Hekatarii blades will get +1S, 1A, -1AP because things gotta be better.

I can see the argument - if everyone's packing all the D2 then hordes of Orks and Acolytes might be hard to put down. (Its kind of what you got under the Marine domination, although definitely Orks not GSC). But it seems such a rock/paper/scissor sort of development, and people who don't fit are just going to be terrible.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:33:57


Post by: Gadzilla666


 skchsan wrote:
I for one think this is a healthy rock-paper-scissor change.

-2D weapons get a boost as it will have a greater pool of units it invalidates (2W models).
-2W models do better against 1D weapons (has double wound pool).
-1D weapons have higher rate of return on its points expenditure against 1W models (opportunity cost of 2D weapons are wasted).

So, 2-wound models are countered by 2 damage weapons, and it 'counters' 1D weapons; 1D weapons 'counter' (more efficiently) 1W models than 2D weapons and gets countered by 2W models; 2D weapons counter 2W models but gets 'countered' by hordes.

So the best weapon is one that can be both effective against 1W and 2W (for a bit of risk) infantry. So, basically, if it remains 10 ppm: Plasma is king.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:36:23


Post by: skchsan


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
I for one think this is a healthy rock-paper-scissor change.

-2D weapons get a boost as it will have a greater pool of units it invalidates (2W models).
-2W models do better against 1D weapons (has double wound pool).
-1D weapons have higher rate of return on its points expenditure against 1W models (opportunity cost of 2D weapons are wasted).

So, 2-wound models are countered by 2 damage weapons, and it 'counters' 1D weapons; 1D weapons 'counter' (more efficiently) 1W models than 2D weapons and gets countered by 2W models; 2D weapons counter 2W models but gets 'countered' by hordes.

So the best weapon is one that can be both effective against 1W and 2W (for a bit of risk) infantry. So, basically, if it remains 10 ppm: Plasma is king.
Right, plasmas are kind of like 'knife' in RPS.

I think plasma now has the qualities to be a truly double edged weapon where it blows up on unmodified roll of 1's and can't be mitigated by +hit abilities. Do plasmas still have double profile?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:37:33


Post by: yukishiro1


P.S. Making the entirety of the space marine army (except scouts and servitors) 2W+ also does the opposite of expanding possible profiles for targets. It means that for the faction 50% of people play, 1W targets effectively don't exist. That's not opening up greater design space, it's diminishing it.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:38:39


Post by: Archebius


I'm concerned about the bump. Doubling the wounds of Tactical Marines with only a 20% increase in cost feels odd. My Sisters at S3, T3, 1W at 11pts compared to a Tactical at S4, T4, 1W, 15pts still felt fair, but now that they're 2W at 18 points? Suddenly my ability to kill them has halved, and they kill me just as easy.

And while I know we're not talking about weapon buffs, etc, the general increase in damage output and resilience, combined with the smaller board size, makes me concerned about Turn 1. Shooting dominated the later meta in 8th, and while terrain helps, in practice you can only hide so much of your army. First turn is going to be a bloodbath until other factions get their rebalance.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:41:11


Post by: Galas


I like this changed but it should apply to everybody.

Necron warriors with 1 wounds, inmortals with 2 and T5, Lychguard/Praetorians with 3 wounds, Ork boyz with 1, nobs with 3, meganobz with 4

With Eldar I would probably give aspect warriors 2 and their sargeants 3 with guardians at 1 wound. Because I can't come up with a defensive buff for "agile" units that isn't just minus to hit or invulnerable saves.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:42:12


Post by: Dudeface


Archebius wrote:
I'm concerned about the bump. Doubling the wounds of Tactical Marines with only a 20% increase in cost feels odd. My Sisters at S3, T3, 1W at 11pts compared to a Tactical at S4, T4, 1W, 15pts still felt fair, but now that they're 2W at 18 points? Suddenly my ability to kill them has halved, and they kill me just as easy.

And while I know we're not talking about weapon buffs, etc, the general increase in damage output and resilience, combined with the smaller board size, makes me concerned about Turn 1. Shooting dominated the later meta in 8th, and while terrain helps, in practice you can only hide so much of your army. First turn is going to be a bloodbath until other factions get their rebalance.


Those marines now have 20% less army/guns to shoot you with.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:42:35


Post by: skchsan


yukishiro1 wrote:
P.S. Making the entirety of the space marine army (except scouts and servitors) 2W+ also does the opposite of expanding possible profiles for targets. It means that for the faction 50% of people play, 1W targets effectively don't exist. That's not opening up greater design space, it's diminishing it.
You mean 50% of player base (since about 50% players play SM flavor of the month), not 50% of the factions that gets played.

Also, if reg tac marines get bumped to 18 ppm, then those 1W scouts with infiltrate looks pretty promising prospect.

Out of the 14 'primary' factions with full roster (excl. knights & custodes) only 2 factions are getting this upgrade (assuming CSM gets equivalent treatment). That's not 50% of the existing factions. Majority of factions will continue to rely on 1W fodders (unless of course, EVERY faction gets bumped up).


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:44:46


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Dudeface wrote:
Archebius wrote:
I'm concerned about the bump. Doubling the wounds of Tactical Marines with only a 20% increase in cost feels odd. My Sisters at S3, T3, 1W at 11pts compared to a Tactical at S4, T4, 1W, 15pts still felt fair, but now that they're 2W at 18 points? Suddenly my ability to kill them has halved, and they kill me just as easy.

And while I know we're not talking about weapon buffs, etc, the general increase in damage output and resilience, combined with the smaller board size, makes me concerned about Turn 1. Shooting dominated the later meta in 8th, and while terrain helps, in practice you can only hide so much of your army. First turn is going to be a bloodbath until other factions get their rebalance.


Those marines now have 20% less army/guns to shoot you with.


Right but those 20% fewer guns will have a 100% longer lifespan when being shot back. Just like in video-games, sometimes the best way to tank a room in a dungeon is to DPS it to death before it overwhelms you. Halving your DPS and reducing enemy count by 20% is a good way to find previously clearable rooms suddenly overwhelming.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:50:07


Post by: the_scotsman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Actually less relevant to me than the comparative resilience of units from a non-pointed/lore standpoint. The question I ask is, where do I think Immortal Resilience should be in relation to most Marines, and my answer to that is "at least equal, preferably better". The circumstance now is "depends on the weapons, but generally worse, especially when it comes to small arms." Which I find quite irritating.

There's a gravitas in the identity of the unit that is eroded.


Fair point. I can't argue that.


The two units seem pretty balanced against one another.

It's just weird that the distinction is "The marine is slightly more durable, the Necron Immortal just does more damage and is very slightly better at melee."

Like....huh?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 18:52:13


Post by: Insectum7


Voss wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

I worry about Tyranids. I hope Tyranid Warriors get some goood upgrades.


Definitely need a major overhaul. I remember hating taking them. I felt I absolutely had to have the backup synapse coverage, but they always fell over to a stiff breeze. (this was 4th/5th editions).
At least in 4th edition they had the nice Synapse ability to not die from Instant Death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Actually less relevant to me than the comparative resilience of units from a non-pointed/lore standpoint. The question I ask is, where do I think Immortal Resilience should be in relation to most Marines, and my answer to that is "at least equal, preferably better". The circumstance now is "depends on the weapons, but generally worse, especially when it comes to small arms." Which I find quite irritating.

There's a gravitas in the identity of the unit that is eroded.


Fair point. I can't argue that.


The two units seem pretty balanced against one another.

It's just weird that the distinction is "The marine is slightly more durable, the Necron Immortal just does more damage and is very slightly better at melee."

Like....huh?
I don't think they should be balanced at rough equivalents. Also, those Doctrines kick in and push the Tacs further. I like the range boost to the Gauss Blaster, but when my UM can move and fire twice at 24" and get a -1 from Tactical, the Tacs can do great by just kiting the Immortals.

Immortals have fallen far. 3rd Ed Gauss Blaster was Assault 2 24" S5 AP4, an amazing gun at the time. Kicking it to Rapid Fire hurt it a lot.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 19:10:25


Post by: Aenar


Game-wise and lore-wise it's awesome and it's how it should've been from the start of 8th.
Balance-wise it's absolutely bonkers if the 20% increase that tacticals get is more or less the average one for MEQ. 100% more durability for +20% in cost is just wrong.
Right now there's simply no way to justify how 2 Fire Warriors are as valuable as a Tac Marine, for example.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 19:24:40


Post by: Daedalus81


 Gadzilla666 wrote:

So the best weapon is one that can be both effective against 1W and 2W (for a bit of risk) infantry. So, basically, if it remains 10 ppm: Plasma is king.


But then terminators are W3 - where is your god now?!


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 19:31:12


Post by: skchsan


 Aenar wrote:
Game-wise and lore-wise it's awesome and it's how it should've been from the start of 8th.
Balance-wise it's absolutely bonkers if the 20% increase that tacticals get is more or less the average one for MEQ. 100% more durability for +20% in cost is just wrong.
Right now there's simply no way to justify how 2 Fire Warriors are as valuable as a Tac Marine, for example.
I think it's a fair trade off.

2x S5 shots at 30" range at the cost of -1 T and Sv.
1x S4 shot at 24" range (after moving) and has +1 T and Sv in comparison.

Note, bolter discipline will usually not come into play (unless otherwise stated) for non-terminator infantries during your turn unless your opponent was kind enough to place his models within 24".


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 19:32:55


Post by: Aenar


 skchsan wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
Game-wise and lore-wise it's awesome and it's how it should've been from the start of 8th.
Balance-wise it's absolutely bonkers if the 20% increase that tacticals get is more or less the average one for MEQ. 100% more durability for +20% in cost is just wrong.
Right now there's simply no way to justify how 2 Fire Warriors are as valuable as a Tac Marine, for example.
I think it's a fair trade off.

2x S5 shots at 30" range at the cost of -1 T and Sv.
1x S4 shot at 24" range (after moving) and has +1 T and Sv in comparison.

Note, bolter discipline will usually not come into play (unless otherwise stated) for non-terminator infantries during your turn unless your opponent was kind enough to place his models within 24".

The internal balance seems fine, it's the external one that is non-existent right now.
We just have to hope for a similar boost and a quick release of xenos codices. Until then, HH 9th ed.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 19:33:22


Post by: Daedalus81


the_scotsman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Actually less relevant to me than the comparative resilience of units from a non-pointed/lore standpoint. The question I ask is, where do I think Immortal Resilience should be in relation to most Marines, and my answer to that is "at least equal, preferably better". The circumstance now is "depends on the weapons, but generally worse, especially when it comes to small arms." Which I find quite irritating.

There's a gravitas in the identity of the unit that is eroded.


Fair point. I can't argue that.


The two units seem pretty balanced against one another.

It's just weird that the distinction is "The marine is slightly more durable, the Necron Immortal just does more damage and is very slightly better at melee."

Like....huh?


His perspective is more around fluff rather than balance.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 19:41:00


Post by: Bluflash


We've also seen datasheets suggesting basic bolters are moving out to 30" range, with 15" rapid fire. That leaves a bit more room for move and shoot without bolter discipline.
Smaller tables also make the range game nearly a non-issue.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 19:41:51


Post by: Banzaimash


I'm not really keen on the Wounds bloat that's been happening in tandem with increased deadliness in the game as a whole, especially considering the regular marine profile is the baseline against which other units in the game are compared. Also not really sure marines need more buffs atm.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 19:56:08


Post by: skchsan


 Banzaimash wrote:
I'm not really keen on the Wounds bloat that's been happening in tandem with increased deadliness in the game as a whole, especially considering the regular marine profile is the baseline against which other units in the game are compared. Also not really sure marines need more buffs atm.
I was under the impression only weapons that got "buffs" were weapons that couldn't be/never taken in 8th ed because they were either cost prohibitive or not cost effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bluflash wrote:
We've also seen datasheets suggesting basic bolters are moving out to 30" range, with 15" rapid fire. That leaves a bit more room for move and shoot without bolter discipline.
Smaller tables also make the range game nearly a non-issue.
Okay, but S5 is still something worth considering, no? Fire warriors hit harder and gets killed easier, marines hit less hard and are harder to kill.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 0011/06/13 19:58:35


Post by: Cornishman


There is lots of talk about doubling the wounds of the humble tactical marine doubling thier life, and thus more than paying off for the 20% increase in price...

However one of the eternal problems of the T4 1W 3+ set up has been that they are vulnerable both to mass low str low ap anti personel weapons, and high str high AP anti-tank weapons. This move 2 wounds helps differentiate them. In the big picture your standard marine is an elite heavy infantry and will now feel like it. Yes it will now take twice the lasgun (insert weapon of choice) shots to down a tac marine, but those lascannons, thunder hammers, monstrous rending claws, melta shots will pretty much cut through those 2 wounds just as easily as the one.

Plus there are all those changes we are yet to see (with the humble heavy bolter going to D2, what else will?).

Metas are metas, and competitive meta something else again. Marines of some description are a popular army, and lots of people have them... So if someone optimises for a marine meta (lots of antitank/ D2+) then they'll have a harder time with those that can field more plentiful, cheaper models.

So I like the concept but whether overall this is good for the game we'll only be able to tell once we have the fuller picture.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 20:07:03


Post by: Insectum7


Cornishman wrote:

However one of the eternal problems of the T4 1W 3+ set up has been that they are vulnerable both to mass low str low ap anti personel weapons, and high str high AP anti-tank weapons. . . .

Why should marines NOT be vulnerable to massed small arms fire? It took about 20 GEQ Lasgun shots to kill a marine.

Now it will take 40.

In cover, it will take 80.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 20:21:27


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

So the best weapon is one that can be both effective against 1W and 2W (for a bit of risk) infantry. So, basically, if it remains 10 ppm: Plasma is king.


But then terminators are W3 - where is your god now?!

My 3W, T4, 2+, 5++ combi-plasma terminators with Icons of Vengeance hitting everything LD9 or less on 2s with Prey On The Weak and being -1 to hit from the retaliatory attack because they're In Midnight Clad.

Ave Dominus Nox.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 20:26:08


Post by: Cornishman


 Insectum7 wrote:
Cornishman wrote:

However one of the eternal problems of the T4 1W 3+ set up has been that they are vulnerable both to mass low str low ap anti personel weapons, and high str high AP anti-tank weapons. . . .

Why should marines NOT be vulnerable to massed small arms fire? It took about 20 GEQ Lasgun shots to kill a marine.

Now it will take 40.

In cover, it will take 80.


The points is that as 'Heavy' Infantry overall they are less durable than light(er) infantry. If causualties from a weapon are expressed in points of units removed per shot they the Tac Marine has until now had a similar expected damage from low str negilble ap (e.g. the lasgun) compared to lighter units, and a much much higher expected damage vs those anti-tank shots (a AT hit may remove a single gaunt, guardian, firewarrior or the much more expensive tac marine just as easily...). For instance if you look at the maths outside of cover a Krak Missile is as (pretty much) effective as a Frag missile against that stat line, and is noticable better in cover. This differentiation is shown in the way the krak missile is pretty much twice as good as frag vs that 2W Tac in all situations as 5 time out of 6 the krak will do at least 2 damage.

Now, as truely heavy infantry, they have an increased vulnerabilty to AT (most AT will take out 2 wounds as easily as 1 and you are paying for those 2W), but are more durable against small arms, a trade off, and differentiation.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 20:27:45


Post by: Gnarlly


 Vaktathi wrote:
Mostly for me, between gaming venues being closed, the release of a new edition to learn, the hamfisted points "rebalancing" for 9E, the changes to a slew of weapons, and all the Marine changes, it means 40k is essentially "on hold" for me for the foreseeable future until there's some sort of marginally stable metagame and rebalancing for a significant number of non-SM factions comes into play, as right now it feels like 9E is essentially still in an early pre-release state, a game that was released before it really knew what it wanted to be and is still undergoing primary development.


+1. I'm currently enjoying playing games of Apocalypse (i.e. Epic with larger-size models) at home and getting back up to speed with 4th/5th edition for other 40k games. I have lost interest in 9th edition.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 20:29:05


Post by: Archebius


 skchsan wrote:

Bluflash wrote:
We've also seen datasheets suggesting basic bolters are moving out to 30" range, with 15" rapid fire. That leaves a bit more room for move and shoot without bolter discipline.
Smaller tables also make the range game nearly a non-issue.
Okay, but S5 is still something worth considering, no? Fire warriors hit harder and gets killed easier, marines hit less hard and are harder to kill.

But their BS is lower, which negates the small advantage they have against T4 and T5 enemies.



How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 20:33:46


Post by: yukishiro1


 Gnarlly wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Mostly for me, between gaming venues being closed, the release of a new edition to learn, the hamfisted points "rebalancing" for 9E, the changes to a slew of weapons, and all the Marine changes, it means 40k is essentially "on hold" for me for the foreseeable future until there's some sort of marginally stable metagame and rebalancing for a significant number of non-SM factions comes into play, as right now it feels like 9E is essentially still in an early pre-release state, a game that was released before it really knew what it wanted to be and is still undergoing primary development.


+1. I'm currently enjoying playing games of Apocalypse (i.e. Epic with larger-size models) at home and getting back up to speed with 4th/5th edition for other 40k games. I have lost interest in 9th edition.


I wouldn't say I've lost all interest in the edition, but it is rapidly becoming clear to me that it is going to be six months or a year, possibly longer, before the edition gets to point where GW isn't constantly embarrassing itself by releasing FAQs to FAQs of FAQs while also putting out "seismic" changes to the game on a piecemeal, codex-by-codex basis that will leave the game reeling until everyone gets their codex.

It's pretty exhausting just thinking about it.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 20:38:05


Post by: ERJAK


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Mixzremixzd wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Insectum, you're hitting on a point I've been trying to make for a while.

40k is now a (war)game in which plastic models stand on a table, their owners roll dice.

It is no longer a war(game), in which assembled armies of hostile foes engage each-other in a pitched battle (abstracted by models and dice).


You're gonna have to fill me in as I started playing earnestly in 6th (or 7th?), when was 40k ever portrayed that way and how?


It's been an uphill and downhill struggle between editions but Epic was pretty good and 4th edition was pretty good. HH is also pretty good, and though it uses the 7th edition architecture, it does a bit better in the 'modeling strategic maneuver/communications/etc.' department. It's more "realistic" in general.


Yeah, so realistic how future military vehicles explode when they touch bushes or fences, or slight inclines.

And, I don't know how to tell you this, but EVERY wargame is a game where plastic models stand on a table and their owners roll dice.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 20:48:50


Post by: Insectum7


Cornishman wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Cornishman wrote:

However one of the eternal problems of the T4 1W 3+ set up has been that they are vulnerable both to mass low str low ap anti personel weapons, and high str high AP anti-tank weapons. . . .

Why should marines NOT be vulnerable to massed small arms fire? It took about 20 GEQ Lasgun shots to kill a marine.

Now it will take 40.

In cover, it will take 80.

The points is that as 'Heavy' Infantry overall they are less durable than light(er) infantry. If causualties from a weapon are expressed in points of units removed per shot . . .
From one point perspective, yes. But likewise from a different point perspective it takes 100 points of Guard Infantry to kill an 18 point marine in the open, or 200 points to kill one in cover. Now, thankfully, Guardsmen also have access to Heavy and Special weapons. Maybe we'll see more of those. But I also play Tyranids, and at the moment it looks like it's going to take 25 Termagants with Fleshborers to kill a single marine (not in cover). How does that feel for the person who likes and wants to field Termagants? Is it right to have basic infantry models that can nearly ignore ranged fire from so many models?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 20:49:31


Post by: ERJAK


yukishiro1 wrote:
 Gnarlly wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Mostly for me, between gaming venues being closed, the release of a new edition to learn, the hamfisted points "rebalancing" for 9E, the changes to a slew of weapons, and all the Marine changes, it means 40k is essentially "on hold" for me for the foreseeable future until there's some sort of marginally stable metagame and rebalancing for a significant number of non-SM factions comes into play, as right now it feels like 9E is essentially still in an early pre-release state, a game that was released before it really knew what it wanted to be and is still undergoing primary development.


+1. I'm currently enjoying playing games of Apocalypse (i.e. Epic with larger-size models) at home and getting back up to speed with 4th/5th edition for other 40k games. I have lost interest in 9th edition.


I wouldn't say I've lost all interest in the edition, but it is rapidly becoming clear to me that it is going to be six months or a year, possibly longer, before the edition gets to point where GW isn't constantly embarrassing itself by releasing FAQs to FAQs of FAQs while also putting out "seismic" changes to the game on a piecemeal, codex-by-codex basis that will leave the game reeling until everyone gets their codex.

It's pretty exhausting just thinking about it.


So why are you? Your sig says you're american. For us, there are no major tournaments for the rest of the year, minimum. Probably not even well into next year, I doubt the LVO or adepticon are even going to be possible. Locals are few and far between with relatively small turnouts due to fear of the virus.


There is not a single game in the entire fething country that has any stakes attached to it going on right now. Why does it matter if space marines are OP, or if the meta is in continuous flux or any of the other crap? It's not like you have to get your adepticon list ready in 3 months and oh shoot and FAQ came out that killed your gimmick.

There has never been a better time in history for the rules to be in a crazy upheaval. You can bring absolutely nonsensical lists to your buddy's basement for months that will be totally different every time you play. You can proxy and 'mark of dave' as much stuff as you want, try anything you can think of and really explore the zanieness of the current ruleset with absolutely ZERO consequences.

By the time we have any games that matter back on the slate, we'll be halfway through the new codexes, well on our way to a new normal.

I get bitching here for the sake of bitching, it's a fun way to relieve stress. I do the same thing. But there's a difference between whining about marines getting 2 shot multimeltas even though you know you're probably getting them too, and stressing out over the rules being unbalanced or certain factions being farther along ruleswise than others or 'keeping up' with the 'seismic changes' going on in a period of history where it LITERALLY CANNOT MATTER.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 20:49:50


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Insectum7 wrote:
Cornishman wrote:

However one of the eternal problems of the T4 1W 3+ set up has been that they are vulnerable both to mass low str low ap anti personel weapons, and high str high AP anti-tank weapons. . . .

Why should marines NOT be vulnerable to massed small arms fire? It took about 20 GEQ Lasgun shots to kill a marine.

Now it will take 40.

In cover, it will take 80.
Oh noes, it'll take a whole ONE squad of guardsmen to kill a marine now!


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 20:53:45


Post by: Insectum7


 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Cornishman wrote:

However one of the eternal problems of the T4 1W 3+ set up has been that they are vulnerable both to mass low str low ap anti personel weapons, and high str high AP anti-tank weapons. . . .

Why should marines NOT be vulnerable to massed small arms fire? It took about 20 GEQ Lasgun shots to kill a marine.

Now it will take 40.

In cover, it will take 80.
Oh noes, it'll take a whole ONE squad of guardsmen to kill a marine now!
And what about GEQ who don't have Orders? Cultists, Gaunts, etc.

Should it really take a whole 10 man squad of CSM to Bolter down a marine, too? It appears that's what it takes. 20 Bolters makes 2.2 wounds not in cover.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:00:03


Post by: Kanluwen


The math's off anyways.

Sergeants don't have lasguns. Adding specials or heavies drop you down a lasgun too for the purposes of FRFSRF.

It will always take one more squad than the math says, simply by the fact that upgrades remove a lasgun from the equation unless you're talking about Conscripts who start at 20 models and can only take Orders on a 4+.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:01:34


Post by: Jimbobbyish


All I can think of is

Primaris fanboy: "NO, you can't just give old marines 2W, they're supposed to be squatted!" GW: "Heavy Bolters go brrrrrrrr"

jokes aside, i'm excited as SW bloodclaws fan. But I do have a issue with updated stats coming in little by little instead of giving all armies Indexes .


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:02:25


Post by: Apple Peel


 Insectum7 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Cornishman wrote:

However one of the eternal problems of the T4 1W 3+ set up has been that they are vulnerable both to mass low str low ap anti personel weapons, and high str high AP anti-tank weapons. . . .

Why should marines NOT be vulnerable to massed small arms fire? It took about 20 GEQ Lasgun shots to kill a marine.

Now it will take 40.

In cover, it will take 80.
Oh noes, it'll take a whole ONE squad of guardsmen to kill a marine now!
And what about GEQ who don't have Orders? Cultists, Gaunts, etc.

Should it really take a whole 10 man squad of CSM to Bolter down a marine, too? It appears that's what it takes. 20 Bolters makes 2.2 wounds not in cover.

Unless the spike tax is harsh, then it sounds like CSM will actually have reason to take chaos space marines.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:03:03


Post by: skchsan


Or... you can just shoot at 2W marines with appropriate weapons, and leave lasguns to kill T3 models?

I think the time of automatically deferring to marines vs guardsmen comparison is over with this buff.

Why not invest in proper MEQ killing weapons? For example, any one of the 2D weapons discussed.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:05:50


Post by: Arbitrator


 Vaktathi wrote:
Mostly for me, between gaming venues being closed, the release of a new edition to learn, the hamfisted points "rebalancing" for 9E, the changes to a slew of weapons, and all the Marine changes, it means 40k is essentially "on hold" for me for the foreseeable future until there's some sort of marginally stable metagame and rebalancing for a significant number of non-SM factions comes into play, as right now it feels like 9E is essentially still in an early pre-release state, a game that was released before it really knew what it wanted to be and is still undergoing primary development.

This pretty much mimics my own thought and situation.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:06:12


Post by: AnomanderRake


 skchsan wrote:
Or... you can just shoot at 2W marines with appropriate weapons, and leave lasguns to kill T3 models?

I think the time of automatically deferring to marines vs guardsmen comparison is over with this buff.

Why not invest in proper MEQ killing weapons? For example, any one of the 2D weapons discussed.


The Marines v. Guardsmen comparison comes in because if you're playing Guard against Marines you don't have any T3 targets to shoot at with the lasguns. Why do your small arms exist if the scale creep of the game is going to render them increasingly irrelevant against more and more targets?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:06:49


Post by: Insectum7


 skchsan wrote:
Or... you can just shoot at 2W marines with appropriate weapons, and leave lasguns to kill T3 models?.
And if you're playing against marines, the most popular army, which T3 models do you shoot your lasguns at?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:12:43


Post by: Daedalus81


 Insectum7 wrote:
From one point perspective, yes. But likewise from a different point perspective it takes 100 points of Guard Infantry to kill an 18 point marine in the open, or 200 points to kill one in cover. Now, thankfully, Guardsmen also have access to Heavy and Special weapons. Maybe we'll see more of those. But I also play Tyranids, and at the moment it looks like it's going to take 25 Termagants with Fleshborers to kill a single marine (not in cover). How does that feel for the person who likes and wants to field Termagants? Is it right to have basic infantry models that can nearly ignore ranged fire from so many models?


A meltagun/plasmagun on an IS squad is merely the cost of a single extra guardsman. 6 Tacs gets you 20 IS with 2 specials.

tacs
12 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 3.5 * 5 = 17.5

IS
2 * .5 * .833 * .833 = 0.7 * 18 = 12.6
16 * .5 * .333 * .333 = 0.9 * 18 = 15.8

IS "win" without FRFSRF or being in double tap range.

Can people PLEASE stop acting like bolters are amazing or that a different variant of Primaris changes the game.




How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:19:52


Post by: Cornishman


 Insectum7 wrote:
Cornishman wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Cornishman wrote:

However one of the eternal problems of the T4 1W 3+ set up has been that they are vulnerable both to mass low str low ap anti personel weapons, and high str high AP anti-tank weapons. . . .

Why should marines NOT be vulnerable to massed small arms fire? It took about 20 GEQ Lasgun shots to kill a marine.

Now it will take 40.

In cover, it will take 80.

The points is that as 'Heavy' Infantry overall they are less durable than light(er) infantry. If causualties from a weapon are expressed in points of units removed per shot . . .
From one point perspective, yes. But likewise from a different point perspective it takes 100 points of Guard Infantry to kill an 18 point marine in the open, or 200 points to kill one in cover. Now, thankfully, Guardsmen also have access to Heavy and Special weapons. Maybe we'll see more of those. But I also play Tyranids, and at the moment it looks like it's going to take 25 Termagants with Fleshborers to kill a single marine (not in cover). How does that feel for the person who likes and wants to field Termagants? Is it right to have basic infantry models that can nearly ignore ranged fire from so many models?


As for 'ignoring' fire, Intercessors are already doing this... As for removing 2W marines as a 'nid player there are other tools available. If 10 Genestealers manage to charge them (likely if those tac are sitting on an objective) they will tend to kill at least 4 marines with the initial hit, fine this isn't providing the overkill that they'd get against 1W tactical marines, but it is hardly 'ineffectice'. @18 pts each 10 tactical marines are around an Exocrine, which if if can fire twice will tend to kill at least 4 of those 2W tactical marines (not the the exocrine notices the extra wound). Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons I suspect will do better than the Termagants too. In short it's about using the right tool for the right job.

9E looks to be a game where board control, and controlling objectives are key to victory. Being able to outnumber me 3.6:1 or 4:1 is going to greatly help in that department. 7 new 2W tactical marines are point off of those 25 Termagants. Having 25 models over 7 I suspect is going to be more useful for controlling objectives and the table.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:20:44


Post by: endlesswaltz123


Scouts are still going to be 1W, as I think blood claws in space wolves armies may be. It depends whether marine players are going to take cheaper troops, or invest in more durable troops, either way, you are not fully hamfisted as guard.

Scouts are still killable with las, and if they go for marines, then there will be less of them, meaning they cannot destroy your units as quickly. It's not an ideal argument, but math hammer is seriously defunct when you take into account actual points costs, yeah, it may take a lot to kill 1 marine, but how many lasguns can you buy for that 18pt marine? You'll know when your codex is out fully.

I also double down on people need to move away from math hammer as the game is now more fluid, and more focussed on mobility, LOS blocking and control.

Don't ask yourself how many marines you can kill with your points, ask yourself how many VP's you can accrue for the same pt investment as marines.

Mathhammer relies on perfect conditions to prove itself correct, conditions are hardly ever perfect in a game to prove it's worth and validity in predicting who will win a game.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:21:22


Post by: Bosskelot


I'll just repeat most of what I said in another thread.

I actually rate the T5 higher than I would an extra wound. The extra wound is not what makes Primaris Marines good, in actual fact throughout most of the previous edition it was touted as the main reason for why Primaris were so bad and underwhelming. When you're paying a premium for an extra wound in an edition where D2+ is EVERYWHERE it sucks. And nothing about that has changed. In actual fact, the amount of D2+ weapons is increasing. What obfuscated this was the gigantic improvement in Marine lethality with the 2.0 Codex, which is where their actual strengths lie. People are getting all excited about this but their hype will disappear when they come up against mass Dark Reapers and Shining Spears or a Necron list with 30 Praetorians.

The only places where the increase in wounds make legitimate and scary differences are 3W Termies (since that 3W is an important damage threshold) and 2W Plague Marines. On something with a decent FNP, 2W actually becomes scary; you only have to look at the IH lists to see that. Everyone else though? You've just made all the D2-3 weapons in my army way more cost efficient because you've massively jumped up in cost for no real increase in survivability. Before it wasn't worth shooting Dark Reapers at Tac Marines. But now it just got a lot more enticing.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:22:40


Post by: KurtAngle2


 Bosskelot wrote:
I'll just repeat most of what I said in another thread.

I actually rate the T5 higher than I would an extra wound. The extra wound is not what makes Primaris Marines good, in actual fact throughout most of the previous edition it was touted as the main reason for why Primaris were so bad and underwhelming. When you're paying a premium for an extra wound in an edition where D2+ is EVERYWHERE it sucks. And nothing about that has changed. In actual fact, the amount of D2+ weapons is increasing. What obfuscated this was the gigantic improvement in Marine lethality with the 2.0 Codex, which is where their actual strengths lie. People are getting all excited about this but their hype will disappear when they come up against mass Dark Reapers and Shining Spears or a Necron list with 30 Praetorians.

The only places where the increase in wounds make legitimate and scary differences are 3W Termies (since that 3W is an important damage threshold) and 2W Plague Marines. On something with a decent FNP, 2W actually becomes scary; you only have to look at the IH lists to see that. Everyone else though? You've just made all the D2-3 weapons in my army way more cost efficient because you've massively jumped up in cost for no real increase in survivability. Before it wasn't worth shooting Dark Reapers at Tac Marines. But now it just got a lot more enticing.


T5 is massively useless with a single wound since you still die to any random 1D weapons that you are forced to take in some units


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:23:54


Post by: Archebius


 AnomanderRake wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Or... you can just shoot at 2W marines with appropriate weapons, and leave lasguns to kill T3 models?

I think the time of automatically deferring to marines vs guardsmen comparison is over with this buff.

Why not invest in proper MEQ killing weapons? For example, any one of the 2D weapons discussed.


The Marines v. Guardsmen comparison comes in because if you're playing Guard against Marines you don't have any T3 targets to shoot at with the lasguns. Why do your small arms exist if the scale creep of the game is going to render them increasingly irrelevant against more and more targets?

And it's important to note that not all armies have great access to flat 2D weapons. IG have Autocannons and some plasma, Necrons have... uhhhhhh... the Staff of the Destroyer? and Tyranids have the Bio-Plasmic Cannon. You pay a premium for d3 and d6 weapons, and those all stand a good chance of either not doing enough to kill a marine, or wasting damage output better spent on bigger targets.

Also, every faction has a troop tax, and most troops can't carry bigger guns. So sure, Marines have to pay 20% more for their wounds, but just about every other faction suffered a 50% decrease in their ability to kill them. Those aren't points I can simply shift over into better MEQ-killing weapons.

Long term, it'll shake out. Short term, I have worries.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:26:35


Post by: Bosskelot


Archebius wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Or... you can just shoot at 2W marines with appropriate weapons, and leave lasguns to kill T3 models?

I think the time of automatically deferring to marines vs guardsmen comparison is over with this buff.

Why not invest in proper MEQ killing weapons? For example, any one of the 2D weapons discussed.


The Marines v. Guardsmen comparison comes in because if you're playing Guard against Marines you don't have any T3 targets to shoot at with the lasguns. Why do your small arms exist if the scale creep of the game is going to render them increasingly irrelevant against more and more targets?

And it's important to note that not all armies have great access to flat 2D weapons. IG have Autocannons and some plasma, Necrons have... uhhhhhh... the Staff of the Destroyer? and Tyranids have the Bio-Plasmic Cannon. You pay a premium for d3 and d6 weapons, and those all stand a good chance of either not doing enough to kill a marine, or wasting damage output better spent on bigger targets.

Also, every faction has a troop tax, and most troops can't carry bigger guns. So sure, Marines have to pay 20% more for their wounds, but just about every other faction suffered a 50% decrease in their ability to kill them. Those aren't points I can simply shift over into better MEQ-killing weapons.

Long term, it'll shake out. Short term, I have worries.


Clearly you've not been keeping up as a ton of Necron units are getting flat D2-3 weapons in the new Codex. And these are all S5+ with Ap-2/3.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:35:02


Post by: Insectum7


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
From one point perspective, yes. But likewise from a different point perspective it takes 100 points of Guard Infantry to kill an 18 point marine in the open, or 200 points to kill one in cover. Now, thankfully, Guardsmen also have access to Heavy and Special weapons. Maybe we'll see more of those. But I also play Tyranids, and at the moment it looks like it's going to take 25 Termagants with Fleshborers to kill a single marine (not in cover). How does that feel for the person who likes and wants to field Termagants? Is it right to have basic infantry models that can nearly ignore ranged fire from so many models?


A meltagun/plasmagun on an IS squad is merely the cost of a single extra guardsman. 6 Tacs gets you 20 IS with 2 specials.

tacs
12 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 3.5 * 5 = 17.5

IS
2 * .5 * .833 * .833 = 0.7 * 18 = 12.6
16 * .5 * .333 * .333 = 0.9 * 18 = 15.8

IS "win" without FRFSRF or being in double tap range.

Can people PLEASE stop acting like bolters are amazing or that a different variant of Primaris changes the game.


And the other units I mention that don't get specials, Gaunts? Cultists? It's not about "winning" per point, it's about "am I really forced to roll 50 dice to remove 1 model?"

Btw. Drop 1 Tac, buy a Grav Cannon and Plasma gun for the Marines and you hit 22.6 points killed. You didn't assume the free Tac Doctrine either.

And I noted Bolters aren't amazing, that's why it takes almost 10 CSM rapid firing or 25 Termagants with Fleshborers to kill a marine.

Also keep in mind that Blasts are back in a big way, further punishing horde style units that have these low S, no AP guns.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:35:31


Post by: skchsan


 Insectum7 wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Or... you can just shoot at 2W marines with appropriate weapons, and leave lasguns to kill T3 models?.
And if you're playing against marines, the most popular army, which T3 models do you shoot your lasguns at?
May I ask if guardsmen were ever actually taken for their offensive output or are they taken to fill the FOC requirements?

Considering guardsmen are still 5 ppm, a guardsmen squad hitting with 9 lasguns will theoretically yield 0.50 wounds, resulting in 9.00 pt loss on the marines.
On the other hand, 18 ppm tac squad hitting with 5 boltguns will theoretically yield 1.48 wounds, resulting in 7.41 pt loss on the infantry squad.

Before the buff, the above infantry squad would've dealt 7.5 pts worth of damage to the tac squad.

Of course, it's a vacuum comparative analysis but I'd say 5 ppm guardsmen are still better point for point than tac marines.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:45:33


Post by: Archebius


 Bosskelot wrote:
Archebius wrote:

And it's important to note that not all armies have great access to flat 2D weapons. IG have Autocannons and some plasma, Necrons have... uhhhhhh... the Staff of the Destroyer? and Tyranids have the Bio-Plasmic Cannon. You pay a premium for d3 and d6 weapons, and those all stand a good chance of either not doing enough to kill a marine, or wasting damage output better spent on bigger targets.

Also, every faction has a troop tax, and most troops can't carry bigger guns. So sure, Marines have to pay 20% more for their wounds, but just about every other faction suffered a 50% decrease in their ability to kill them. Those aren't points I can simply shift over into better MEQ-killing weapons.

Long term, it'll shake out. Short term, I have worries.

Clearly you've not been keeping up as a ton of Necron units are getting flat D2-3 weapons in the new Codex. And these are all S5+ with Ap-2/3.

I've been following the updates and leaks. I think, so far, we have two ranged 2D weapon options, both on pretty expensive elite platforms - our troops are still all at 1D. Necrons will likely benefit from being an earlier codex, and thus getting their buffs earlier. The point still applies for those poor, poor souls stuck with an 8e codex for months.

Edit: Oh, and yeah, our new melee options are amazing, I've watched a few battle reports with them. I'm excited to play some Skorpekh with buddies - on a meta level, though, I'm not convinced 9e has corrected 8e's preference for shooty armies, so I'm not expecting to see them sweep any tournaments soon.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:48:20


Post by: Insectum7


 skchsan wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Or... you can just shoot at 2W marines with appropriate weapons, and leave lasguns to kill T3 models?.
And if you're playing against marines, the most popular army, which T3 models do you shoot your lasguns at?
May I ask if guardsmen were ever actually taken for their offensive output or are they taken to fill the FOC requirements?

Considering guardsmen are still 5 ppm, a guardsmen squad hitting with 9 lasguns will theoretically yield 0.50 wounds, resulting in 9.00 pt loss on the marines.
On the other hand, 18 ppm tac squad hitting with 5 boltguns will theoretically yield 1.48 wounds, resulting in 7.41 pt loss on the infantry squad.

Of course, it's a vacuum comparative analysis but I'd say 5 ppm guardsmen are still better point for point than tac marines.

Guardsmen aren't the only troops out there with 1D weapons. How do Tau, Eldar and Necron players feel about this? I've been a fan of Termagants, and often used them for their offensive output.

Here's something to ponder. Lots of people felt that the four non-heavy Weapon guys in a Tac Squad often served as mere bodyguards for the guy with the Special. Has this notion gotten more accurate or less so, now that even more common targets for Bolters have gone to two wounds?

And as mentioned in another post, Blast has come back too, so those horde style units are not only halving their offensive capability against a number of targets, but are also going to get chewed up by blasts.



How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 21:54:13


Post by: Crimson


On thing I'd really like to see the confirmation on is the bolters.

All the leaked stormbolters had the old 24 range, however, the marine veterans weirdly have range 30 bolters. I really hope the latter is either a mistake or a special bolter for veterans. I think all bolters being range 30 would be too much, would be inconsistent with the storm bolter and would make them too similar to bolt rifles, thus probably making tacticals too much like the Intercessors.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 22:04:54


Post by: BrianDavion


 Insectum7 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Cornishman wrote:

However one of the eternal problems of the T4 1W 3+ set up has been that they are vulnerable both to mass low str low ap anti personel weapons, and high str high AP anti-tank weapons. . . .

Why should marines NOT be vulnerable to massed small arms fire? It took about 20 GEQ Lasgun shots to kill a marine.

Now it will take 40.

In cover, it will take 80.
Oh noes, it'll take a whole ONE squad of guardsmen to kill a marine now!
And what about GEQ who don't have Orders? Cultists, Gaunts, etc.

Should it really take a whole 10 man squad of CSM to Bolter down a marine, too? It appears that's what it takes. 20 Bolters makes 2.2 wounds not in cover.


given that CSMs will have the same advantages it's IMHO a wash re CSMs


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 22:07:44


Post by: MinscS2


 Brother Castor wrote:

To the Rhino boys! It's time for a beer.


We need a new driver, this one is dead

Gonna enjoy trying out my World Eaters with these changes. My Berzerkers literally died like flies in their last game.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 22:20:05


Post by: yukishiro1


Before going to 2W, tactical marines are 3x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, and cost 3x as much. Post change, they will be 6x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, while costing 3.6 times as much.

Did we really think it was a problem that marines were only 3x as hard to kill with small arms fire as normal humans? Superhuman = 3x as hard to kill with normal weapons wasn't superhuman enough?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 22:20:57


Post by: Argive


GW has deemd 1W on a space marine pumped to the gills of that stacking rules juice, to be worth 3 pts...

Even IF/WHEN xenos weapany gets bumped in Damage (and thus cost right?), given their hard on for multiples of 5s for weapons it would mean that each weapon would go up at least 5pts in order to deliver the extra damage meaning its still far more efficient o be a tac marine than to be anything else..

In perspective.. A warlock has 2 wounds and is 60pts and is a HQ choice.

Hope ya'll ready for some insane codex creep coz things are going to get nuts... big shame. Was actually was excited for about 5 minutes for the new edition.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 22:24:47


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


As though the Warlock was worth 60 to begin with.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 22:25:19


Post by: Insectum7


BrianDavion wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Cornishman wrote:

However one of the eternal problems of the T4 1W 3+ set up has been that they are vulnerable both to mass low str low ap anti personel weapons, and high str high AP anti-tank weapons. . . .

Why should marines NOT be vulnerable to massed small arms fire? It took about 20 GEQ Lasgun shots to kill a marine.

Now it will take 40.

In cover, it will take 80.
Oh noes, it'll take a whole ONE squad of guardsmen to kill a marine now!
And what about GEQ who don't have Orders? Cultists, Gaunts, etc.

Should it really take a whole 10 man squad of CSM to Bolter down a marine, too? It appears that's what it takes. 20 Bolters makes 2.2 wounds not in cover.


given that CSMs will have the same advantages it's IMHO a wash re CSMs
Beside the point. My issue has less to do with per-point comparative combat ability and more to do with the effectiveness of small arms in either small engagement infantry battles or among hordes who are also getting hit with Blast rules.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 22:28:11


Post by: Cornishman


yukishiro1 wrote:
Before going to 2W, tactical marines are 3x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, and cost 3x as much. Post change, they will be 6x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, while costing 3.6 times as much. ..


By this logic, at present with 1W they both die as easily as on another to a meltagun (hit) , so should they cost the same? With 2W the Tactical marine will survive slightly more than a guard, so should only cost slighty more than a guard?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 22:31:06


Post by: Phenatix


Yeah sick I can't wait for it. New muhreens profiles? 2W? New weapon profiles? Yay.

Can't wait to see what they do with tyranid statlines, when the codex releases. Lol what was I thinking, why would anyone release sweeping changes to faction core rules all at once? Nah, better drip it out piecemeal.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 22:36:14


Post by: yukishiro1


Cornishman wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Before going to 2W, tactical marines are 3x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, and cost 3x as much. Post change, they will be 6x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, while costing 3.6 times as much. ..


By this logic, at present with 1W they both die as easily as on another to a meltagun (hit) , so should they cost the same? With 2W the Tactical marine will survive slightly more than a guard, so should only cost slighty more than a guard?


That's not the same logic. If you want to make that argument yourself feel free to do so, but don't make bad arguments simply so you can falsely attribute them to someone else. That's a waste of everyone's time.

I was responding to people who said that 1W marines didn't feel tough enough. The change, as you note, has very little impact on their ability to survive heavy weapons. But it has a massive effect on their ability to survive small arms fire. Hence my question re: whether anyone thought the problem with 1W tactical marines was that being 3x as resistant to small arms fire wasn't enough? Because that's the only way this change makes sense, if people really did think that being 3x as hard to kill with small arms fire as a guardsmen was insufficiently heroic.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 22:47:37


Post by: MinscS2


yukishiro1 wrote:
Before going to 2W, tactical marines are 3x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, and cost 3x as much. Post change, they will be 6x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, while costing 3.6 times as much.

Did we really think it was a problem that marines were only 3x as hard to kill with small arms fire as normal humans? Superhuman = 3x as hard to kill with normal weapons wasn't superhuman enough?


And Heavy Bolters kill twice the number of Marines in 9th...?

Use weapons for what they're good at and don't complain when weapons who are bad at doing X... are bad at doing X.

Aim your lasguns at SM Vehicles and or tougher units instead and not their basic marines, you might as well.
That's what I'm gonna do with my IG at least.





How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 22:50:45


Post by: yukishiro1


You're not addressing the question. If you don't want to answer the question that's fine, you certainly don't have to. But please don't make assumptions about what I am or am not arguing if I haven't actually argued it.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 23:02:09


Post by: argonak


I am ecstatic about this change. I am absolutely going to go out and kitbash at least one, maybe two, tactical squads with intercessor bodies.

To me the tactical squad IS what it is to be a space marine. I love that they're keeping them relevant. I was ready to see the firstborn go gently into the night, because the primaris just look so much better, but this is the way better option!

Now just let Primaris ride in StormRavens!


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 23:02:13


Post by: Argive


 MinscS2 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Before going to 2W, tactical marines are 3x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, and cost 3x as much. Post change, they will be 6x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, while costing 3.6 times as much.

Did we really think it was a problem that marines were only 3x as hard to kill with small arms fire as normal humans? Superhuman = 3x as hard to kill with normal weapons wasn't superhuman enough?


And Heavy Bolters kill twice the number of Marines in 9th...?

Use weapons for what they're good at and don't complain when weapons who are bad at doing X... are bad at doing X.

Aim your lasguns at SM Vehicles and or tougher units instead and not their basic marines, you might as well.
That's what I'm gonna do with my IG at least.






In other words: "ohh just use that new improved weapon SM get to kill those new improved SM units"

"But I don't have any Spa..."

"STFU NPC!! your opinion is infuriating. Just get on with it"




How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 23:11:35


Post by: MinscS2


yukishiro1 wrote:
You're not addressing the question. If you don't want to answer the question that's fine, you certainly don't have to. But please don't make assumptions about what I am or am not arguing if I haven't actually argued it.


Was there an actual, serious question in there? I thought it was just rant about Space Marines, since that seems to be your current jam.

Regardless, Firstborn going to 2W won't actually make marines "harder to kill", since if dakkadakka has learned my anything this summer it's that Primaris are the only things SM-players play, so with Firstborn (that "no one uses anyway") getting an additional wound won't actually make a difference in the end, because you're not raising the bar for Primaris, you're just raising the bar for Firstborn so it now reaches the same height as Primaris.

Basically: You're used to face 2W-marines, and you'll continue to face 2W-marines.
The main difference now is that Marines-players have some more, previously neglected units to pick from, making the lists more varied, which is technically a win for everyone involved.

 Argive wrote:

In other words: "ohh just use that new improved weapon SM get to kill those new improved SM units"

"But I don't have any Spa..."

"STFU NPC!! your opinion is infuriating. Just get on with it"




I'm fairly certain that IG, who yukishiro1 used as an example have ample Heavy Bolters at their disposal, even if he plays a "NPC faction".
(I assume this is some current meta-word on dakkadakka. Can't wait for it to die and go away, it's super-lame.)


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 23:18:32


Post by: kurhanik


It depends on how fast they roll out fixes for other factions. If all Marines get their +1 wound and weapons get fixed etc, but it takes 2 years for Guardsmen or Genestealer Cultists or Orks or whatnot to get the tools to fight them, it will be awful. If, however, in the hotfixes they throw out with the new Marine book all Orks get +1 wound, Guard gets access to a new order to mitigate the Marine buffs somewhat, and so on, it could work out.

We also don't know if the new codices will be a complete new design paradigm. Marines could see losses in strategems, buff auras, rerolls, etc. If GW can actually pull it off to be somewhat balanced I am all for this change, I just have low faith in GW actually pulling it off..

Also I love the comparisons of Guardsmen to Tactical Marines going on in this thread. Very reminiscent of 2 years ago when the argument was being made the exact opposite way on why Guardsmen were the best infantry unit in the game and Tac Marines were brokenly bad, that always devolved into one person not factoring point costs into buffing units, and another asking why both units only had their baseline gun and no other equipment, etc


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 23:22:11


Post by: yukishiro1


 MinscS2 wrote:


Was there an actual, serious question in there? I thought it was just rant about Space Marines, since that seems to be your current jam.



The "actual, serious question" was explicitly written. You chose to ignore the explicit question and instead rather bizarrely interpret it as a rant, because you decided to make things personal and react based on your opinion of the poster rather than what they actually wrote. I can't stop you from doing that, but it's a massive waste of everyone's time.

It's clear you aren't interested in answering the question so I don't think further engagement is going to be useful.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 23:23:17


Post by: Chris521


As far as I'm concerned, this is something that should have happened at the start of 8th, completely independent of any balance issues we have right now.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 23:28:46


Post by: MinscS2


yukishiro1 wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:


Was there an actual, serious question in there? I thought it was just rant about Space Marines, since that seems to be your current jam.



The "actual, serious question" was explicitly written. You chose to ignore the explicit question and instead rather bizarrely interpret it as a rant, because you decided to make things personal and react based on your opinion of the poster rather than what they actually wrote. I can't stop you from doing that, but it's a massive waste of everyone's time.

It's clear you aren't interested in answering the question so I don't think further engagement is going to be useful.


It's fine, you don't seem that interested in having an actual discussion anyway, or you would've explained what the actual question was in your first reply.

I'll say it again though; Heavy Bolters are twice at effective at killing 2W-marines now.
If you have an actual problem with Lasguns being bad at killing marines (they always where to be fair, they just went from "bad" to "even worse"), adapt and use something else. It's not like IG don't have the tools at their disposal to deal with 2W-marines.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 23:31:16


Post by: Mr.Church13


As a marine player I really like this change to all my Firstborn.

As an Eldar player I feel like I should just sit out till we what singular build our codex can compete with this edition.

As a Marine Player I love all the new models coming out.

As an Eldar player I realize we aren't ever going to see a revamp due to getting screwed by GW's Blood of the Phoenix debacle causing massive low sales.

As a marine player I don't think I should play my marines against my friends because even pulling my punches I outclass them by a HUGE margin.

I'm very conflicted about what's going down right now.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 23:34:20


Post by: yukishiro1


 MinscS2 wrote:


It's fine, you don't seem that interested in having an actual discussion anyway, or you would've explained what the actual question was in your first reply.


yukishiro1 wrote:

Did we really think it was a problem that marines were only 3x as hard to kill with small arms fire as normal humans? Superhuman = 3x as hard to kill with normal weapons wasn't superhuman enough?


Are you having trouble seeing the question mark and figuring out what part of that is a question? I am honestly stumped here. I don't think the question could be any clearer.

People said they liked this change because it makes space marines better at surviving small arms fire. Hence my observation that they were already 3x as good at it as normal humans, and my question as to whether people thought that wasn't enough to represent their superiority. Really not seeing what isn't crystal clear about the question?





How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 23:39:28


Post by: Blndmage


I'm an Oldcron player, so,I'm not really a fan of some of the things their doing to my faction, however...

Ok, about all the new SM changes, like most of us, I'm not a fan, it makes my immortal terminators as tough as a guardsman.

I found the numbers needed to take down a single marine to be rediculous. The only way this works, is if somehow they get costed closer to Custodes. These rules certainly make marines feel more like the lore, which is aggravating as all hell as a non SM player (and a XENOS one at that.).

What's that line "a Space Marine is worth 100 other men."(the context being 1 Marine is equal to 100 guardsmen.)?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 23:42:59


Post by: MinscS2


yukishiro1 wrote:

Are you having trouble seeing the question mark and figuring out what part of that is a question? I am honestly stumped here. I don't think the question could be any clearer.

People said they liked this change because it makes space marines better at surviving small arms fire. Hence my observation that they were already 3x as good at it as normal humans, and my question as to whether people thought that wasn't enough to represent their superiority. Really not seeing what isn't crystal clear about the question?


Because it honestly sounded like a rhetorical rant-question:
Lasguns where already really bad at dealing with marines, and 2W marines have been a common thing for over 3 years, and how many Firstborn-units do you usually play against? (So how much of a difference will it really make?)

But to answer your question: "Yes".
Firstborn Marines/Chaos Marines died way to easily to smallarms-fire relative to their cost, compared to Primaris Marines.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 23:45:00


Post by: McMagnus Mindbullets


I'm intrigued by it. I'm especially interested to see how they're going to handle keeping game balance whilst they roll out this granularity to every faction-or whether they even will at all.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 23:47:36


Post by: yukishiro1


Ok, so you actually do think that marines being only 3x as tough as a normal human to small arms fire wasn't superior enough, and that their superiority needed to be further increased.

Glad we cleared that one up, though it woulda been a lot faster if we could have avoided 5 posts worth of back and forth about alleged rants.




How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 23:55:16


Post by: evil_kiwi_60


I'm very excited that cult marines and chosen can step out of cover without being wiped out at will. I could have done without the buff on regular CSM/TAC marines to help differentiate veteran units from more run of the mill.

For the guard issue, it seems like there may finally be a reason to take veteran squads again. They're relatively cheap elites choice that can bring a good amount of plasma to bear. Might be worth taking a squad or two in a chimera to hop out and delete a flank of troops.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/13 23:58:01


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Ultimately an army with 2 wounds each has a lot going for it.



Seriously, for the amount of gak I get here for being "overly negative" (completely untrue), reading threads like this really make me feel warm and fuzzy on the inside as I ain't got gak on the people in this thread.

I think this change is fantastic. Making Marines (more of less) the same across the board and changing up weapons (across the game). The fact that these changes apply to Guard and Sisters and Chaos as well is even better. It's a big shake-up, it Marines act like the elite units they're meant to be, and arms them with very dangerous weapons.

In all honesty the only thing I don't like is 30" bolters. I think that with GW's new standard recommended minimum sized tables, putting more things in range of one another from turn 1 isn't the best idea.

 LunarSol wrote:
It's a little weird. I had kind of accepted that Primaris were going to phase out classic marines, but apparently they were just a beta test?
They still will, this is just the next phase of that very long-term plan.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The nice thing is people who want to mod Intercessors into First Born get the best of both worlds. Its a pretty great move.
Of course it is. It makes phasing the First Born out far easier as well.

Siegfriedfr wrote:
I feel like GW is schizophrenic, they were that close to retiring oldmarines, and try to make them relevant again.
They're blurring the lines between First Born and Primaris, so that when they start phasing out the older kits it's not as jarring a moment.

 Cruentus wrote:
3) GW will never make it through the entire development cycle to get all the 40k codexes out to this "new" approach. Never have, never will. Halfway through, someone will change their mind, and they'll go off in a new direction.
That's a given. GW's party trick is changing horses mid-race, sometimes multiple times.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 01:07:59


Post by: Rihgu


This makes some of the points costs make more sense. Weapons and wargear that are going to be mass-updated in October across all codices were given points with that in mind (so as if the update was already rolled out).
Presumably the units themselves will get new points. How big of a problem this is will be based on what the point raises are.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 01:35:45


Post by: Argive


Rihgu wrote:
This makes some of the points costs make more sense. Weapons and wargear that are going to be mass-updated in October across all codices were given points with that in mind (so as if the update was already rolled out).
Presumably the units themselves will get new points. How big of a problem this is will be based on what the point raises are.


I don't buy that.. Coz a bunch of stuff is really whack. I mean really whack... And they are pointed accordingly to a codex that might drop in a year or more by which point we are likely to get another CA points adjustment as well as the codex points when the eventual codex comes out?

It just seems like plain ol negligence/incompetence.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 01:37:47


Post by: Voss


Rihgu wrote:
This makes some of the points costs make more sense. Weapons and wargear that are going to be mass-updated in October across all codices were given points with that in mind (so as if the update was already rolled out).
Presumably the units themselves will get new points. How big of a problem this is will be based on what the point raises are.


That doesn't follow.
Seriously, one thing we know for certain about tactical marines going to 2W is they're also going to 18 points, up from the 15 they were just given. The 15 point tactical marine in CA2020 is for the 1W marine.


The 9 point kabalite, however bizarre and unjustified, is for the current version of the kabalite. Not some theoretical future version. Same for everything else.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 01:46:35


Post by: Rihgu


 Argive wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
This makes some of the points costs make more sense. Weapons and wargear that are going to be mass-updated in October across all codices were given points with that in mind (so as if the update was already rolled out).
Presumably the units themselves will get new points. How big of a problem this is will be based on what the point raises are.


I don't buy that.. Coz a bunch of stuff is really whack. I mean really whack... And they are pointed accordingly to a codex that might drop in a year or more by which point we are likely to get another CA points adjustment as well as the codex points when the eventual codex comes out?

It just seems like plain ol negligence/incompetence.

No, that's the opposite of what I said. I said that they (multi-meltas, power weapons, chainfists, thunder hammers, etc) are pointed according to a universal release that will come out in October alongside the Space Marine codex, which will give multi-meltas, power weapons, chainfists, thunder hammers, etc. new stats which will roll out to numerous codexes all at once. This is to prevent a scenario where they release points costs for all these weapons and then have to release a FAQ with new points costs for every faction affected.
All units are pointed according to their current stats and abilities. Even in bizarre cases like Kabalite Warriors.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 02:09:24


Post by: Argive


Rihgu wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
This makes some of the points costs make more sense. Weapons and wargear that are going to be mass-updated in October across all codices were given points with that in mind (so as if the update was already rolled out).
Presumably the units themselves will get new points. How big of a problem this is will be based on what the point raises are.


I don't buy that.. Coz a bunch of stuff is really whack. I mean really whack... And they are pointed accordingly to a codex that might drop in a year or more by which point we are likely to get another CA points adjustment as well as the codex points when the eventual codex comes out?

It just seems like plain ol negligence/incompetence.

No, that's the opposite of what I said. I said that they (multi-meltas, power weapons, chainfists, thunder hammers, etc) are pointed according to a universal release that will come out in October alongside the Space Marine codex, which will give multi-meltas, power weapons, chainfists, thunder hammers, etc. new stats which will roll out to numerous codexes all at once. This is to prevent a scenario where they release points costs for all these weapons and then have to release a FAQ with new points costs for every faction affected.
All units are pointed according to their current stats and abilities. Even in bizarre cases like Kabalite Warriors.


In the world of a 2W tac marine for 18 pt the cost of all other infantry makes sense does it? Weapons like heavy bolter etc I can sort of understand. But nobody is getting extra wounds and its the bodies that went up as well as the guns.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 02:10:58


Post by: Niiru


 skchsan wrote:
Or... you can just shoot at 2W marines with appropriate weapons, and leave lasguns to kill T3 models?

I think the time of automatically deferring to marines vs guardsmen comparison is over with this buff.

Why not invest in proper MEQ killing weapons? For example, any one of the 2D weapons discussed.



What 2D weapons were they?

Starcannons are probably the best I have access to, and thats 70 points for 2 of them. And they might kill 1 tac marine. so over a 5 turn game, they may make their points back, assuming the marine opponent never attacks it in any way.

It also means the only way to defeat even a fluffy mixed up space marine army, will be to spam war walkers and falcons and nothing else. Which is already what eldar have to do, even before the buff to marines. And its boring.

Where's the howling banshees, who should be able to delete a marine squad per turn solo easily? Oh yeh, they struggle to kill guardsmen.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 05:40:40


Post by: Just Tony


It reaffirms that my decision to give up on modern GW rules and to stick solely with 3rd Ed 40k gaming was the correct decision.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 05:54:30


Post by: Crusaderobr


 Just Tony wrote:
It reaffirms that my decision to give up on modern GW rules and to stick solely with 3rd Ed 40k gaming was the correct decision.


Ok, using 3rd edition rules, my Baharroth charges your squad, gets 27 hits and 18 power weapon wounds against your squad : D


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 06:08:07


Post by: ccs


I'm fine with my SMs going to 2w.

I mean, to hear alot of you talk my classic armies were/are going to get squatted any day now.... So the time was already coming where I'd be playing them as 2w Primaris.
GWs just getting you used to the idea early for me.



How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 06:24:55


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


I've been saying 2-wound Marines was going to be a thing for a while now.

I've got something of a friend who drops me little breadcrumbs here and there- and even they aren't privy to everything- for example, they don't know when new models are coming out, or what the final product will look like, but they do know that chances are the models you'll see over the next year or so are pretty much done and at the very least- they're in the 'segmenting' process where they decide how they'll be 'cut and sprued'.

But in truth, it was obviously coming.

GW made Primaris Marines their own special unique thing because if they just made 'New body sizes', the Grognards wouldn't throw money at them- they'd harrumph, say their old marines are just fine, and that's money left on the table and GW ain't havin' it.

Because I know as far back as 2012 GW was in the process of trying to figure out how to make Space Marines more 'properly scaled'. Even Chaos Marines in more recent releases got bigger.

A standard loyalist Space Marine kit hasn't been released since the Deathwatch Veterans kit, and they're noticeably bigger than the Marines before. Considering that was... 5 years ago, maybe 4? And nothing but Primaris Marines have come out since then, named Characters are going Rubicon...

...if anyone didn't see the 'All Space Marines will have 2 wounds and be pretty much Primaris Marines' coming? I don't know what to tell you other than... you should have. Games Workshop is more predictable than the sunrise.

Overall- it's an extra wound and that's all.

EVERYONE is getting weapon buffs. FFS, people act like multi-damage weapons, sheer volume of dice attacks, and AP aren't as common as the Space Marines themselves.

And we all knew that any major changes would happen first with the Space Marines, and then every Codex afterwards is going to be written to counter Space Marines- this isn't really new.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 07:15:40


Post by: warmaster21


 Crusaderobr wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
It reaffirms that my decision to give up on modern GW rules and to stick solely with 3rd Ed 40k gaming was the correct decision.


Ok, using 3rd edition rules, my Baharroth charges your squad, gets 27 hits and 18 power weapon wounds against your squad : D


you say that like its a bad thing. a phoenix lord should be able to crush a squad of marines effortlessly in melee. rip sustained assault and biting blades.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 07:19:26


Post by: Crusaderobr


 warmaster21 wrote:
 Crusaderobr wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
It reaffirms that my decision to give up on modern GW rules and to stick solely with 3rd Ed 40k gaming was the correct decision.


Ok, using 3rd edition rules, my Baharroth charges your squad, gets 27 hits and 18 power weapon wounds against your squad : D


you say that like its a bad thing. a phoenix lord should be able to crush a squad of marines effortlessly in melee. rip sustained assault and biting blades.


Oh I love 3rd Edition rules, just pointing out to Just Tony that the grass is not always greener on the other side haha!


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 07:37:02


Post by: Just Tony


Crusaderobr wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
It reaffirms that my decision to give up on modern GW rules and to stick solely with 3rd Ed 40k gaming was the correct decision.


Ok, using 3rd edition rules, my Baharroth charges your squad, gets 27 hits and 18 power weapon wounds against your squad : D


Oh, gee! Look at a hyperbolic example that would only happen with damn near perfect rolling! You sure showed me!!!!!



Go learn the definition of the following terms: outlier, potential output, statistical output, actual output, and then get back to me if you are really interested in having this conversation.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 07:38:01


Post by: Jidmah


It was about time the properly divided heavy infantry from light infantry.

I will make my decision on whether I like it or not based on whether they put the same effort into the new ork codex as they have for marines.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 07:38:51


Post by: Just Tony


warmaster21 wrote:
 Crusaderobr wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
It reaffirms that my decision to give up on modern GW rules and to stick solely with 3rd Ed 40k gaming was the correct decision.


Ok, using 3rd edition rules, my Baharroth charges your squad, gets 27 hits and 18 power weapon wounds against your squad : D


you say that like its a bad thing. a phoenix lord should be able to crush a squad of marines effortlessly in melee. rip sustained assault and biting blades.


How often did it actually happen, though?

Crusaderobr wrote:
 warmaster21 wrote:
 Crusaderobr wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
It reaffirms that my decision to give up on modern GW rules and to stick solely with 3rd Ed 40k gaming was the correct decision.


Ok, using 3rd edition rules, my Baharroth charges your squad, gets 27 hits and 18 power weapon wounds against your squad : D


you say that like its a bad thing. a phoenix lord should be able to crush a squad of marines effortlessly in melee. rip sustained assault and biting blades.


Oh I love 3rd Edition rules, just pointing out to Just Tony that the grass is not always greener on the other side haha!


In this case it most assuredly is, and my post above remains unchanged by this post here.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 07:50:36


Post by: Crusaderobr


 Just Tony wrote:
warmaster21 wrote:
 Crusaderobr wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
It reaffirms that my decision to give up on modern GW rules and to stick solely with 3rd Ed 40k gaming was the correct decision.


Ok, using 3rd edition rules, my Baharroth charges your squad, gets 27 hits and 18 power weapon wounds against your squad : D


you say that like its a bad thing. a phoenix lord should be able to crush a squad of marines effortlessly in melee. rip sustained assault and biting blades.


How often did it actually happen, though?

Crusaderobr wrote:
 warmaster21 wrote:
 Crusaderobr wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
It reaffirms that my decision to give up on modern GW rules and to stick solely with 3rd Ed 40k gaming was the correct decision.


Ok, using 3rd edition rules, my Baharroth charges your squad, gets 27 hits and 18 power weapon wounds against your squad : D


you say that like its a bad thing. a phoenix lord should be able to crush a squad of marines effortlessly in melee. rip sustained assault and biting blades.


Oh I love 3rd Edition rules, just pointing out to Just Tony that the grass is not always greener on the other side haha!


In this case it most assuredly is, and my post above remains unchanged by this post here.


Man this guy is so uptight. Um dude, I would at least get 18+ hits reliably every time. Go ahead, bring math into the equation. I dont care. I charged a 9 man Crisis unit with shield drones back in the day and they got wiped out in a single turn. You want to face 3rd edition Eldar? I will give it to you. But we all know your too scared to face the cheese. Eldar 3rd was cheese. Get out of here with your doom and gloom of 9th edition. If you think 3rd edition is more balanced than 9th, you dont know 40k.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 07:51:34


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Jidmah wrote:
It was about time the properly divided heavy infantry from light infantry.

I will make my decision on whether I like it or not based on whether they put the same effort into the new ork codex as they have for marines.



Imo the issue is not the inflation, allbeit i am a bit sceptical what a smaller board and 30" bolters can do,.... but rather that gw will insist to stretching it out artificially .

Which will be an issue,.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 08:03:27


Post by: MinscS2


yukishiro1 wrote:
Ok, so you actually do think that marines being only 3x as tough as a normal human to small arms fire wasn't superior enough, and that their superiority needed to be further increased.

Glad we cleared that one up, though it woulda been a lot faster if we could have avoided 5 posts worth of back and forth about alleged rants.


You focus too much on "2x" or "3x", which are a bit to abstract and don't really say all that much.
Let's put it this way instead:

51 points of guardsmen (bolter on sgt.) shooting at Tacticals with FRFSRF:
- 36 Lasguns, 18 hits, 6 wounds, 2 dead tacticals.
- 2 Bolters, 1 hit, 0,5 wound, 0,17 additional dead tacticals for a total of 2,17 dead tacticals, or ~32 pts of dead marines.

Now 48 points of Tacticals (stormbolter on sgt.) shooting at guardsmen with rerolling 1's to hit:
- 8 Bolters, 5,77 hits, 3,85 wounds, 2,57 wounds - a total of ~2,5 dead guardsmen, or ~12,5 pts of dead guardsmen.

*Lets go back to Guardsmen (bolter on sgt.), but this time without FRFSRF:
- 18 Lasguns, 9 hits, 3 wounds, 1 dead tactical.
- 2 Bolters, 1 hit, 0,5 wound, 0,17 additional dead tacticals for a total of 1,17 dead tacticals, or ~17,5 pts of dead marines.


Well look at that, Guardsmen are point-for-point much better at killing 1W-Tactical Marines than what Tactical Marines are at killing Guardsmen, even without FRFSRF.
I don't know about you, but in my opinion that just feels wrong.

Let's do one more comparison: 10 Tacticals (150 pts) vs. 30 Guardsmen (150 pts). Without buffs and special weapons (which would ironically favor the Guardsmen more in this situation, because 3 Plasmaguns would on their own do 1,67 wounds, 2,08 if overcharging.)

- 10 Tacticals: 20 shots, 13,33 hits, 8,88 wounds, 5,92 wounds after saves, let's round it up to 6 dead guardsmen for 30 pts worth of dead guardsmen.

- 30 Guardsmen: 57 shots, 28,5 hits, 9,5 wounds, 3,17 wounds after saves. That's ~47,5 points worth of dead Tacticals.

So ... Yes, I do think that Firstborn Marines needed to get tougher against smallarms-fire such as Lasguns.
The math even shows that Infantry Squads outperform Tacticals point-for-point in a firefight, and not by little either, but by as much as <50%.

Now you're free to disagree and you probably do, but at the end of the day your only reason for doing so is "I don't like Marines getting tougher", because frankly, if Infantry with Lasguns outshoot Tacticals with Bolters, then the Tacticals aren't though enough.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 08:03:38


Post by: Bosskelot


You were already playing against nothing but Intercessor armies anyway.

How is 2W Tacticals a gigantic change at all? It's not like they're staying at the same points.

No seriously though, all this stuff about how your Guardsmen or Guardians will struggle to kill them now, when it's just the exact same issue as versus Primaris units.... which is all you ever play against anyway?

So again. What actually changes here?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 08:05:15


Post by: Karol


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
It's a little weird. I had kind of accepted that Primaris were going to phase out classic marines, but apparently they were just a beta test?


The nice thing is people who want to mod Intercessors into First Born get the best of both worlds. Its a pretty great move.



What if in an edition or two squads of intercessors are going to be able to have one or two members carry las talons, onslaught cannons and hellblaster plasma weapons? GW could phase out classic marines out, and if someone wants to use them, they would have to rebase them and play their tacs and devs as primaris.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 08:06:13


Post by: Marin


I think the change will be good in the long run. The problem is that if they dont make massive FAQ, for over a year some armies will just be in terrible spot. With the insane rate of releases even after that we will not have stable game for more than 6 mounts. The guys that want to make 40k professional will be screwed, since you cant have comparative game in such environment. 40k is not video game and such fast changes are not something positive.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 08:06:14


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Bosskelot wrote:
You were already playing against nothing but Intercessor armies anyway.

How is 2W Tacticals a gigantic change at all? It's not like they're staying at the same points.

No seriously though, all this stuff about how your Guardsmen or Guardians will struggle to kill them now, when it's just the exact same issue as versus Primaris units.... which is all you ever play against anyway?

So again. What actually changes here?


Well chaos will now probably also field 2 W dudes, so technically the other big superfaction is in it. (well as soon as the dex drops but you get what i mean)



How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 08:11:14


Post by: Karol


+1W nurgle termintors and 2W PMs sound very nice too.

Caped at 5 units like havocks also got much better now, with extra T and 2W each they are actualy resilient to weak armies shoting.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 08:21:17


Post by: Not Online!!!


Aye plague marines will look nice, but on paper, i'd say for regular CSM and if the stratagems remain in place i doubt that you see many in the lists unless of course you play DG.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 08:40:48


Post by: BrianDavion


 Bosskelot wrote:
You were already playing against nothing but Intercessor armies anyway.

How is 2W Tacticals a gigantic change at all? It's not like they're staying at the same points.

No seriously though, all this stuff about how your Guardsmen or Guardians will struggle to kill them now, when it's just the exact same issue as versus Primaris units.... which is all you ever play against anyway?

So again. What actually changes here?


nothing but it's Marines so they have to complain.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 08:43:01


Post by: Jidmah


Unlike marine and eldar players, I'm used to playing with a codex that was written two editions ago


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bosskelot wrote:
You were already playing against nothing but Intercessor armies anyway.

How is 2W Tacticals a gigantic change at all? It's not like they're staying at the same points.

No seriously though, all this stuff about how your Guardsmen or Guardians will struggle to kill them now, when it's just the exact same issue as versus Primaris units.... which is all you ever play against anyway?

So again. What actually changes here?


This. Tacticals with two wounds are just intercessors with worse bolters and a heavy/special weapon instead of the grenade launcher.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 08:55:07


Post by: Kitane


My opinion on this depends solely on whether Nids are rescaled to match.

With the Primaris and now new old marine stats, a Tyranid Warrior would need something like 5 base attacks, T5, and 5W just to return to the relative place it used to be, and that's before further stat buffs to its weapons.

It used to be a significantly superior organism to standard marines, 3 times as many attacks and wounds, and it was still considered mediocre on the table.

The odds of that kind of rescale happening? Probably zero.

I will probably count myself lucky if one of the warrior weapons gets more than 1D.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 10:21:13


Post by: Sumilidon


Personally I had the move taken. It not because of rules or balance, but because they are ugly models with no plans to be redesigned. Compared to Primaris, they may as well just call them “squat marines” because proportionally they look like they have been squashed down by a heavy gravity in comparison. Improve the rules, encourage their use and you fill the board with all kinds of ugly.

Part of the reason I believe GW haven’t updated the Eldar aspect warriors properly is because they couldn’t bare the shame of such ugly sculpts on the table representing their brand. As such I am surprised they have made this choice rather than continuing to encourage the march towards primaris.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 10:25:37


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Bosskelot wrote:
How is 2W Tacticals a gigantic change at all? It's not like they're staying at the same points.
Because, in much the same way GW designs their rules, everyone seems to be viewing this change in a vacuum. Doesn't make much sense to me...


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 11:00:53


Post by: Sumilidon


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Bosskelot wrote:
How is 2W Tacticals a gigantic change at all? It's not like they're staying at the same points.
Because, in much the same way GW designs their rules, everyone seems to be viewing this change in a vacuum. Doesn't make much sense to me...


A second wound makes quite a big difference to the game when you look at how 9th is playing out. High durability ob sec models are game winners, and 18 points really is not that many points when you consider the other space marine stats. All of which equate to a unit that will be hard to shift from an objective. Now admittedly, as time goes by, other armies will see the same buff which will potentially dwarf the initial space marine advantage (notably Custodes and Death Guard in my opinion) However as we are also seeing weapon changes, we may instead find that those advantages become completely negated - especially as 9th did not adapt the AOS approach of wounds carrying over (for the best).

What is becoming apparent to me however is that 9th edition is very much going to be the edition where MEQ shooty infantry will be king. Beyond the objective game, the buffs to weapons such as Heavy Bolters and Multi Meltas will see a hard counter to light and heavy vehicles whilst the hit roll modifier cap will Counter those armies that relied on this to compensate for poor defences. The flamer changes along with blast rules will counter the horde armies leaving the MEQs are the true game winners.

For me I see a shift going back to 7th edition way of playing and in particular, factoring in the new wounds and weapon rules - Drop Pods will see a quick return to the board.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 11:19:12


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Because as we all know, only Marine armies have flamers, blast weapons, and guns to fight light/heavy vehicles.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 11:30:11


Post by: Unit1126PLL


ERJAK wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Mixzremixzd wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Insectum, you're hitting on a point I've been trying to make for a while.

40k is now a (war)game in which plastic models stand on a table, their owners roll dice.

It is no longer a war(game), in which assembled armies of hostile foes engage each-other in a pitched battle (abstracted by models and dice).


You're gonna have to fill me in as I started playing earnestly in 6th (or 7th?), when was 40k ever portrayed that way and how?


It's been an uphill and downhill struggle between editions but Epic was pretty good and 4th edition was pretty good. HH is also pretty good, and though it uses the 7th edition architecture, it does a bit better in the 'modeling strategic maneuver/communications/etc.' department. It's more "realistic" in general.


Yeah, so realistic how future military vehicles explode when they touch bushes or fences, or slight inclines.

And, I don't know how to tell you this, but EVERY wargame is a game where plastic models stand on a table and their owners roll dice.


I could talk about how you and your opponent defined terrain badly if bushes or fences or slight inclines are dangerous for tanks (they aren't in my playgroup) or about how terrain and mobility/counter-mobility are battle-altering feature. I could talk about how bogging down historically caused crews to abandon their tank, especially if it was already badly damaged by enemy fire (as it must be in HH for this scenario to occur). I could also point out that nothing 'explodes' when they do so.

But somehow I feel like you are determined to rage about something perfectly sensible, so have at it.

And if you can't see the difference between "a wargame is armies attacking each other (abstracted by models and dice)" and "a wargame is models and dice with no link to anything" then I fear you will always miss my point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, ladies and gentlemen, we have reached that point in 40k history where it is now easier to kill a Rhino with small arms than the 10 man tac squad it is carrying.

It takes 90 boltgun hits to kill a Rhino, and 120 boltgun hits to kill a 10-man tactical squad.

An armored personnel carrier is more vulnerable to small arms fire than the infantry squad it is carrying.

Lol.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 11:37:37


Post by: endlesswaltz123


And the typical flaw of such threads start to appear...

Your argument is based on Rhinos staying as they are.

Probably a good guess they won't be.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 11:44:29


Post by: Sumilidon


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because as we all know, only Marine armies have flamers, blast weapons, and guns to fight light/heavy vehicles.


There are certainly other armies in contention, chaos marines are the immediately obvious ones (and as said, Death Guard I feel are the most viable), similarly I think Tau will be a worrisome opponent however Nobody does it better than Marines. They have the most flexibility, standard, durable and numerous ObSec troops They can field in MSU with heavy weapons, drop pods as well as a variety of assault options.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 12:02:41


Post by: Ordana


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because as we all know, only Marine armies have flamers, blast weapons, and guns to fight light/heavy vehicles.
Imperial armies get new weapon profiles and buffs, Xenos are told to play in the kiddie pool for 2 years until their codex comes out that may make them playable.

Yeah, I can't see why people might be worried/salty about that /s.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 12:12:14


Post by: D6Damager


yukishiro1 wrote:
Let's do one more comparison: 10 Tacticals (150 pts) vs. 30 Guardsmen (150 pts).


New 2W tacticals are base 18 points. So 10 would be 180 vs. 150.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 12:44:34


Post by: Unit1126PLL


endlesswaltz123 wrote:
And the typical flaw of such threads start to appear...

Your argument is based on Rhinos staying as they are.

Probably a good guess they won't be.


we know the durability stats of the Vindicator didn't change, so there's not many places the Rhino can go. The Vindicator is T8 11 wounds.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 13:21:47


Post by: MinscS2


 D6Damager wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Let's do one more comparison: 10 Tacticals (150 pts) vs. 30 Guardsmen (150 pts).


New 2W tacticals are base 18 points. So 10 would be 180 vs. 150.


I think you missed the point and quoted the wrong person.

I used current tacticals (15 ppm, 1W) in my example to show how they do in fact, contrary to what yukishiro1 claims, need to get tougher against small arms fire, because point by point Infantry Squads outgun Tacticals currently.

It will be more even when Firstborn get slightly more expensive and move to 2W.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 13:44:30


Post by: Ice_can


 MinscS2 wrote:
 D6Damager wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Let's do one more comparison: 10 Tacticals (150 pts) vs. 30 Guardsmen (150 pts).


New 2W tacticals are base 18 points. So 10 would be 180 vs. 150.


I think you missed the point and quoted the wrong person.

I used current tacticals (15 ppm, 1W) in my example to show how they do in fact, contrary to what yukishiro1 claims, need to get tougher against small arms fire, because point by point Infantry Squads outgun Tacticals currently.

It will be more even when Firstborn get slightly more expensive and move to 2W.

Except that's against Guard who have managed to survive into 9th with troops costed like grots for whatever baffling reasong GW have.

10FW vrs 5 Tacticals

10×.5, x.666x.333= 1.1 Wound, 9 points

5x.666,x.666x.5= 1.1 Wound 9 points

So they now shoot as well as firewarriors before doctorines.(1.48 wounds with Ap-1)

CC,

10x.333, x.333,x.333= .40 wounds

11x.666,x.666,x.5= 2.44 wounds

That's definitely not in line with FW at 9 points being correctly costed to have a balanced game.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 13:53:03


Post by: Daedalus81


 MinscS2 wrote:

- 30 Guardsmen: 57 shots, 28,5 hits, 9,5 wounds, 3,17 wounds after saves. That's ~47,5 points worth of dead Tacticals.


It would be 3.17 * 9 = 29 points of marines since each wound is "half" of their cost.

It doesn't change the perspective much though.



How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 13:58:36


Post by: Ordana


 MinscS2 wrote:
 D6Damager wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Let's do one more comparison: 10 Tacticals (150 pts) vs. 30 Guardsmen (150 pts).


New 2W tacticals are base 18 points. So 10 would be 180 vs. 150.


I think you missed the point and quoted the wrong person.

I used current tacticals (15 ppm, 1W) in my example to show how they do in fact, contrary to what yukishiro1 claims, need to get tougher against small arms fire, because point by point Infantry Squads outgun Tacticals currently.

It will be more even when Firstborn get slightly more expensive and move to 2W.
aren't FRFSRF guardsmen generally one of the most efficient troops in the game?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 13:58:37


Post by: MinscS2


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:

- 30 Guardsmen: 57 shots, 28,5 hits, 9,5 wounds, 3,17 wounds after saves. That's ~47,5 points worth of dead Tacticals.


It would be 3.17 * 9 = 29 points of marines since each wound is "half" of their cost.

It doesn't change the perspective much though.



Current 1W Tacticals Daedalus81, hence every wound being worth 15 pts. 3,17x15 = 47,55.

However, if it was 2W Tacticals it would result in 28,53(29) just as you said, which makes a shootout between Guardsmen and 2W Tacticals dead even.

 Ordana wrote:

aren't FRFSRF guardsmen generally one of the most efficient troops in the game?


I'm not even giving them the benefits of FRFSRF in most of the comparisons.

I'm also using Guardsmen as example because that's the unit yukishiro1 used as an example for why Firstborn shouldn't get more resilient against small-arms fire. I'm not cherrypicking, I'm genuinely just using the same unit the guy I'm discussing this topic with brought up.



How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 14:11:44


Post by: Ice_can


 Ordana wrote:
aren't FRFSRF guardsmen generally one of the most efficient troops in the game?
yes they are they ironically cost the same as A grot currently because 9th edition most balanced play tested edition ever.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 14:23:06


Post by: Daedalus81


Ice_can wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
aren't FRFSRF guardsmen generally one of the most efficient troops in the game?
yes they are they ironically cost the same as A grot currently because 9th edition most balanced play tested edition ever.


FRFSRF IS are not the same cost as a grot. They're near 7 points and an HQ slot, which come at more of a premium these days.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:25:35


Post by: Stormonu


 LunarSol wrote:
It's a little weird. I had kind of accepted that Primaris were going to phase out classic marines, but apparently they were just a beta test?


I think the original plan was (and is) a phase-out, looks like they are coming to the merger point. Once there's no difference between the game stats, there's little reason to keep the old models in stock.

However, I'm not giving up my rhino chassis and land raiders any time soon. Hovercraft are nice models too, but I still want my tank treads.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:29:12


Post by: yukishiro1


Minsc is missing the point of comparison entirely, which is ironic since I specifically explained what the point was. The comparison has little to do with points efficiency, and certainly nothing to do with offensive points efficiency. Saying that guardsmen are more points efficient at shooting than 1W tacticals is completely besides the point, because these changes don't change that at all. In fact, they make tacticals even less efficient offensively than they were.

The point of the comparison, as I stated earlier, was to show to people that say "tacticals aren't durable enough to small fire!" that, contrary to that claim, they are in fact 3x as durable as a normal human trooper. Being three times as tough as a normal soldier strikes me as pretty superhuman already. Apparently it doesn't to some others - perhaps it's the influence of comic books movies, and people think that heroes being 3x as tough as normal people are no longer heroic enough.

Whatever the case may be, the comparison is meant to illustrate that in 40k, even 1W space marines are already extremely durable compared to normal human soldiers with regard to low quality attacks. Increasing the wounds of regular marines by 1 while buffing the damage characteristic of lots of heavy weapons is, if anything, more likely to diminish space marine survivability than to enhance it. The problem with 1W marines really isn't that they die too easily to low S, low AP fire. It's that that kind of fire barely exists in the game any more, and as soon as you start upping the S and/or AP, 1W marines quickly start evaporating almost as easily as guardsmen. But this change actually makes that discrepancy worse, not better. So making weapons more deadly, with higher S, AP and damage, but boosting old marines to 2W, seems a very odd way to address a perceived problem with survivability. These changes are very likely to make the game even deadlier overall, not less deadly.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:29:24


Post by: skchsan


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
aren't FRFSRF guardsmen generally one of the most efficient troops in the game?
yes they are they ironically cost the same as A grot currently because 9th edition most balanced play tested edition ever.


FRFSRF IS are not the same cost as a grot. They're near 7 points and an HQ slot, which come at more of a premium these days.
Note how he said most efficient, not the mostest cheapestest.

Because grots only come with 12" pistols, more often than not they don't have any offensive output (because you usually park them in the objective in the rear). In comparison, IS is worth far more than grots.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:37:13


Post by: Kanluwen


What a shock, a trained infantry unit is better than the camp followers that have to be flushed out with Squig Hounds and pressed into battle.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:37:16


Post by: skchsan


yukishiro1 wrote:
Whatever the case may be, the comparison is meant to illustrate that in 40k, even 1W space marines are already extremely durable compared to normal human soldiers.
On paper, maybe. In practice, the only way to keep your tacs alive is by:
1. not giving the unit any special weapon (reduces overall threat).
2. park them in cover for 2+ save, and hope opponent doesn't have cover ignore.

Let's face it - if guardsmen are indeed taken for their offensive output, you're not bringing them so that you can deal some real, reliable damage with your S3 guns. The whole selling point of guardsmen is that they can be easily spammed for massive weight of fire. You're not going for statistically sound result here - you're actually going for the statistically improbable result, hoping for those lucky shots. Again, the whole point of guardsmen's offensive output is to normalize the probability curve through sheer sample size.

Even then, ten guardsmen w/ 9 lasguns still out damage five 2W tacs in terms of points per damage.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:37:59


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Kanluwen wrote:
What a shock, a trained infantry unit is better than the camp followers that have to be flushed out with Squig Hounds and pressed into battle.


I think the shocking thing is that the game considers these to be of roughly equal capability when constructing your army.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:40:05


Post by: Kanluwen


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
What a shock, a trained infantry unit is better than the camp followers that have to be flushed out with Squig Hounds and pressed into battle.


I think the shocking thing is that the game considers these to be of roughly equal capability when constructing your army.

I'd love Grots to be 2ppm...but it isn't happening. Not unless they get just melee weapons, have a negative modifier to any/all of their saves, etc.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:40:58


Post by: Insectum7


 MinscS2 wrote:
 D6Damager wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Let's do one more comparison: 10 Tacticals (150 pts) vs. 30 Guardsmen (150 pts).


New 2W tacticals are base 18 points. So 10 would be 180 vs. 150.


I think you missed the point and quoted the wrong person.

I used current tacticals (15 ppm, 1W) in my example to show how they do in fact, contrary to what yukishiro1 claims, need to get tougher against small arms fire, because point by point Infantry Squads outgun Tacticals currently.

It will be more even when Firstborn get slightly more expensive and move to 2W.
Yeah. . . I used the same logic during 8th to show that Tacticals were superior to Dark Reaper Squads. It's a flawed model.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:41:09


Post by: Ice_can


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
aren't FRFSRF guardsmen generally one of the most efficient troops in the game?
yes they are they ironically cost the same as A grot currently because 9th edition most balanced play tested edition ever.


FRFSRF IS are not the same cost as a grot. They're near 7 points and an HQ slot, which come at more of a premium these days.

Still not fairly costed using the most broken troop unit of 8th as your yardstick for balance makes all those xeno who got shafted by 9th's infantry models cost 9 points spreadsheet CA2020 take less of a rofl stomping from marines.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:44:49


Post by: Stormonu


yukishiro1 wrote:
Minsc is missing the point of comparison entirely, which is ironic since I specifically explained what the point was. The comparison has little to do with points efficiency, and certainly nothing to do with offensive points efficiency. Saying that guardsmen are more points efficient at shooting than 1W tacticals is completely besides the point, because these changes don't change that at all. In fact, they make tacticals even less efficient offensively than they were.

The point of the comparison, as I stated earlier, was to show to people that say "tacticals aren't durable enough to small fire!" that, contrary to that claim, they are in fact 3x as durable as a normal human trooper. Being three times as tough as a normal soldier strikes me as pretty superhuman already. Apparently it doesn't to some others - perhaps it's the influence of comic books movies, and people think that heroes being 3x as tough as normal people are no longer heroic enough.

Whatever the case may be, the comparison is meant to illustrate that in 40k, even 1W space marines are already extremely durable compared to normal human soldiers with regard to low quality attacks. Increasing the wounds of regular marines by 1 while buffing the damage characteristic of lots of heavy weapons is, if anything, more likely to diminish space marine survivability than to enhance it. The problem with 1W marines really isn't that they die too easily to low S, low AP fire. It's that that kind of fire barely exists in the game any more, and as soon as you start upping the S and/or AP, 1W marines quickly start evaporating almost as easily as guardsmen. But this change actually makes that discrepancy worse, not better. So making weapons more deadly, with higher S, AP and damage, but boosting old marines to 2W, seems a very odd way to address a perceived problem with survivability. These changes are very likely to make the game even deadlier overall, not less deadly.


Well by lore, marines are supposed to be 10x as tough as a regular human - "Give me a hundred space marines Or failing that, give me a thousand other troops" - Rogal Dorn.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:45:22


Post by: yukishiro1


 skchsan wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Whatever the case may be, the comparison is meant to illustrate that in 40k, even 1W space marines are already extremely durable compared to normal human soldiers.
On paper, maybe. In practice, the only way to keep your tacs alive is by:
1. not giving the unit any special weapon (reduces overall threat).
2. park them in cover for 2+ save, and hope opponent doesn't have cover ignore.

Let's face it - if guardsmen are indeed taken for their offensive output, you're not bringing them so that you can deal some real, reliable damage with your S3 guns. The whole selling point of guardsmen is that they can be easily spammed for massive weight of fire. You're not going for statistically sound result here - you're actually going for the statistically improbable result, hoping for those lucky shots. Again, the whole point of guardsmen's offensive output is to normalize the probability curve through sheer sample size.

Even then, ten guardsmen w/ 9 lasguns still out damage five 2W tacs in terms of points per damage.


Please read the rest of the post instead of singling out one line. Every point you raised is addressed. Note particularly the bit where I said the point of the comparison is not to say that space marines are more points efficient than guardsmen, and certainly not about their offensive capability.

It is a statistical fact that 1W tacticals are 3x as resilient to lasguns as a normal human guardsman. That's already very elite. The problem with 1W tacticals isn't that they die too easily to small arms fire compared to normal humans, it's that they're overpointed and have too little offense, and, most of all, that they exist in a game where small arms fire barely exists any more because of constant stat inflation.

GW's response to the fact that small arms fire no longer exists is to increase the W count to 2 while also further inflating offensive stats. That is very unlikely to result in a less killy game where space marines feel more durable.

The basic problem with 1W marines is that they've been left behind in a game where weapons have become more and more deadly. You don't really address that by making guns even *more* deadly while tacking on an additional wound.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:45:53


Post by: Insectum7


 Stormonu wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Minsc is missing the point of comparison entirely, which is ironic since I specifically explained what the point was. The comparison has little to do with points efficiency, and certainly nothing to do with offensive points efficiency. Saying that guardsmen are more points efficient at shooting than 1W tacticals is completely besides the point, because these changes don't change that at all. In fact, they make tacticals even less efficient offensively than they were.

The point of the comparison, as I stated earlier, was to show to people that say "tacticals aren't durable enough to small fire!" that, contrary to that claim, they are in fact 3x as durable as a normal human trooper. Being three times as tough as a normal soldier strikes me as pretty superhuman already. Apparently it doesn't to some others - perhaps it's the influence of comic books movies, and people think that heroes being 3x as tough as normal people are no longer heroic enough.

Whatever the case may be, the comparison is meant to illustrate that in 40k, even 1W space marines are already extremely durable compared to normal human soldiers with regard to low quality attacks. Increasing the wounds of regular marines by 1 while buffing the damage characteristic of lots of heavy weapons is, if anything, more likely to diminish space marine survivability than to enhance it. The problem with 1W marines really isn't that they die too easily to low S, low AP fire. It's that that kind of fire barely exists in the game any more, and as soon as you start upping the S and/or AP, 1W marines quickly start evaporating almost as easily as guardsmen. But this change actually makes that discrepancy worse, not better. So making weapons more deadly, with higher S, AP and damage, but boosting old marines to 2W, seems a very odd way to address a perceived problem with survivability. These changes are very likely to make the game even deadlier overall, not less deadly.


Well by lore, marines are supposed to be 10x as tough as a regular human - "Give me a hundred space marines Or failing that, give me a thousand other troops" - Rogal Dorn.
10 x as valuable doesn't mean 10 x tougher.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:46:13


Post by: Tyel


Guardsmen should probably be 6 points.

Realistically though I think you are getting a lot of soft advantages on the tacticals (unless they get taken away) that a "they both walk to 12" and have at each other and the guardsmen win" isn't totally compelling.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:47:17


Post by: Ice_can


 Stormonu wrote:

Well by lore, marines are supposed to be 10x as tough as a regular human - "Give me a hundred space marines Or failing that, give me a thousand other troops" - Rogal Dorn.

I missed the line in the Warcom post that said that marines are becoming 90 points per model.
You want to be 10× better then pay 10x the points


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
Guardsmen should probably be 6 points.

Realistically though I think you are getting a lot of soft advantages on the tacticals (unless they get taken away) that a "they both walk to 12" and have at each other and the guardsmen win" isn't totally compelling.

Really they should cost the same as a cultist despite having a better statline?
Guard should be 8 points each in the new 9th edition points.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:52:09


Post by: yukishiro1


 Stormonu wrote:


Well by lore, marines are supposed to be 10x as tough as a regular human - "Give me a hundred space marines Or failing that, give me a thousand other troops" - Rogal Dorn.


That quote doesn't say what you think it does. It's not saying each marine is 10x as durable, strong, fast, and deadly as a normal human. It's saying that 100 space marines is as effective or more effective an overall fighting force as 1000 normal human troops.

100 US special forces are more effective in many ways than 1000 infantry grunts, but it's not because each ranger can take 10x as many bullets as a grunt. It's because they can operate together in a way that increases their effectiveness beyond the physical capabilities of each individual.

If each space marine was 10x as tough as a normal human, 15 or 20 of them would be enough to be worth 1000 normal troops, not 100.

But the point of the comparison I was making wasn't necessarily to say that the right value is 3x or 6x or 10x. It's that space marines are ALREADY much, much more resilient to small arms fire than normal humans...and they still die like flies, because the game has moved on from small arms fire, and the advantages space marines have over normal humans evaporate as weapon quality increases. So GW's approach of inflating weapon stats *even more* while making them 2W is not going to make them stop dying like flies, because the stuff that kills them isn't small arms fire in the first place.

It's not going to have the effect people are hoping. Space Marines are not going to feel more durable, except against stuff that wasn't killing them anyway. Space Marines getting gunned down by lasguns wasn't the problem they were facing.



How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 15:55:03


Post by: Kanluwen


Guard can be 8 points when they're a 4+ save, everyone has a Lasgun, and they get access to more special weapon options per squad.

Because that's getting into Skitarii points territory, which are 4+/6++ with Canticles(always on across the whole army), 3x special weapons in 10 model squads, and no mandatory weirdly equipped unit leader.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 16:03:12


Post by: Rihgu


Why would a model pay points for the privilege to pay points to get a weapon? Are there existing units that pay for the privilege to get special weapons? Every unit I can think of (GK Purifiers, CSM Chosen, SM veterans + devastators, retributors, dominions) have extra rules/stats that make up the points difference between their regular counterpoints, so they aren't paying for the privilege.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 16:06:58


Post by: Tyel


Ice_can wrote:
Really they should cost the same as a cultist despite having a better statline?
Guard should be 8 points each in the new 9th edition points.


I can't see how you can value guardsmen at 8 points compared to comparable units.

I don't really know what to do with cultists. I don't have anything against them per se - but GW clearly does. Tbh I think they and conscripts should probably just go to legends.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 16:06:58


Post by: Nurglitch


The important thing is that Battle-Brother Stacey has a new hat.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 16:13:29


Post by: Kanluwen


Rihgu wrote:
Why would a model pay points for the privilege to pay points to get a weapon? Are there existing units that pay for the privilege to get special weapons? Every unit I can think of (GK Purifiers, CSM Chosen, SM veterans + devastators, retributors, dominions) have extra rules/stats that make up the points difference between their regular counterpoints, so they aren't paying for the privilege.

Right now, Guard are 'locked' to one special weapon per squad and one heavy weapon team per squad. The 8 points per model Guardsmen would have to be something more than what they are now.

That's why I made the statement I did. Because the squad size right now(10) is static, same as the options.

Infantry Squads are always 9 Guardsmen and 1 Sergeant.
The 9 Guardsmen can, as squad options, take:
-1 Special Weapon(Sniper Rifle, Plasma Gun, Meltagun, Flamer, or Grenade Launcher)
-2 models form a Heavy Weapons Team(Lascannon, Heavy Bolter, Rocket Launcher, Mortar, and Autocannon)
-1 Voxcaster which doesn't change out their weapon

The Sergeant gets:
-1x Laspistol(Standard)
--Can replace their Laspistol with something from the Ranged Weapons list(Bolt Pistol, Boltgun, or Plasma Pistol)
-Can take a Power Sword or Chainsword

If you want more than 10 Guardsmen in an Infantry Squad? You have to use a Stratagem(Combined Squads) to do it, or take Conscripts which get literally none of those options and start at 20 models going to 30.



How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 16:14:59


Post by: Tamwulf


I am more excited to see what happens to non-Space Marine armies. You know, armies like Daemons, Eldar, Tau? The "forgotten" armies of 40k?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 16:19:57


Post by: Kanluwen


Tyel wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Really they should cost the same as a cultist despite having a better statline?
Guard should be 8 points each in the new 9th edition points.


I can't see how you can value guardsmen at 8 points compared to comparable units.

I don't really know what to do with cultists. I don't have anything against them per se - but GW clearly does. Tbh I think they and conscripts should probably just go to legends.

Truthfully, Conscripts and Cultists have one big issue that is the same in both armies:
They were being used as cheap replacements for what the army is, fluffwise, built around.

All they need to do is "These units do not count as a mandatory Troops choice slot in your Detachments".
Also, Conscripts need to go to a 6+ save if Guardsmen stay at 5+.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 16:20:33


Post by: Ordana


Tyel wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Really they should cost the same as a cultist despite having a better statline?
Guard should be 8 points each in the new 9th edition points.


I can't see how you can value guardsmen at 8 points compared to comparable units.

I don't really know what to do with cultists. I don't have anything against them per se - but GW clearly does. Tbh I think they and conscripts should probably just go to legends.
8 point Guardsman vs 9 point Kabalite warrior.

Go.

(not saying Guardsman should be 8 points, but neither should kabalites be 9).


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 16:31:55


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Rihgu wrote:
Why would a model pay points for the privilege to pay points to get a weapon? Are there existing units that pay for the privilege to get special weapons? Every unit I can think of (GK Purifiers, CSM Chosen, SM veterans + devastators, retributors, dominions) have extra rules/stats that make up the points difference between their regular counterpoints, so they aren't paying for the privilege.

It's why so many units like Devastators and Purgation squads were bad until 5th. They paid considerably more for their weapons just because they could take a couple more. It's bad design.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 16:50:16


Post by: Ice_can


Tyel wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Really they should cost the same as a cultist despite having a better statline?
Guard should be 8 points each in the new 9th edition points.


I can't see how you can value guardsmen at 8 points compared to comparable units.

I don't really know what to do with cultists. I don't have anything against them per se - but GW clearly does. Tbh I think they and conscripts should probably just go to legends.

Kabalite, Guardians and FW all being 9 PPM says 5PPM guardsmen is pants on head wrong.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 16:50:32


Post by: Tyel


 Ordana wrote:
8 point Guardsman vs 9 point Kabalite warrior.

Go.

(not saying Guardsman should be 8 points, but neither should kabalites be 9).


If it pleases the jury I think Kabs should be 7. Guardian defenders should probably be about that too.
But Kabalites are definitely *better* than guardsmen. They have BS3+. While I know some people don't like a splinter rifle because they always seem to be shooting T3 enemies (or worse, grots) - against any tougher non-vehicle its a better gun - sometimes considerably better.

Even if the whole game system was balanced around kabalites, and they were 9 points forever, I wouldn't put guardsmen at 8.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 16:53:24


Post by: Ice_can


Tyel wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
8 point Guardsman vs 9 point Kabalite warrior.

Go.

(not saying Guardsman should be 8 points, but neither should kabalites be 9).


If it pleases the jury I think Kabs should be 7. Guardian defenders should probably be about that too.
But Kabalites are definitely *better* than guardsmen. They have BS3+. While I know some people don't like a splinter rifle because they always seem to be shooting T3 enemies (or worse, grots) - against any tougher non-vehicle its a better gun - sometimes considerably better.

Even if the whole game system was balanced around kabalites, and they were 9 points forever, I wouldn't put guardsmen at 8.

Well a Grot is 5PPM Cultists are 6PPM, Conscripts are better than cultists so 7PPM Guardsmen end up at 8PPM by default.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 16:54:12


Post by: Insectum7


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Why would a model pay points for the privilege to pay points to get a weapon? Are there existing units that pay for the privilege to get special weapons? Every unit I can think of (GK Purifiers, CSM Chosen, SM veterans + devastators, retributors, dominions) have extra rules/stats that make up the points difference between their regular counterpoints, so they aren't paying for the privilege.

It's why so many units like Devastators and Purgation squads were bad until 5th. They paid considerably more for their weapons just because they could take a couple more. It's bad design.
Mmmm, no. It's recognizing the value of concentrated weapons in a paradigm where units can only engage one target. 1 Heavy in 10 guys is worth less when you give up shooting with every other model when firing it at a tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tamwulf wrote:
I am more excited to see what happens to non-Space Marine armies. You know, armies like Daemons, Eldar, Tau? The "forgotten" armies of 40k?


This is going to be where the rubber hits the road, but having seen some Necron stuff I'm less enthused. Warriors and Immortals should be at 2W, Imo.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 16:59:10


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Why would a model pay points for the privilege to pay points to get a weapon? Are there existing units that pay for the privilege to get special weapons? Every unit I can think of (GK Purifiers, CSM Chosen, SM veterans + devastators, retributors, dominions) have extra rules/stats that make up the points difference between their regular counterpoints, so they aren't paying for the privilege.

It's why so many units like Devastators and Purgation squads were bad until 5th. They paid considerably more for their weapons just because they could take a couple more. It's bad design.
Mmmm, no. It's recognizing the value of concentrated weapons in a paradigm where units can only engage one target. 1 Heavy in 10 guys is worth less when you give up shooting with every other model when firing it at a tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tamwulf wrote:
I am more excited to see what happens to non-Space Marine armies. You know, armies like Daemons, Eldar, Tau? The "forgotten" armies of 40k?


This is going to be where the rubber hits the road, but having seen some Necron stuff I'm less enthused. Warriors and Immortals should be at 2W, Imo.

Except it never worked that way. You'd have to buy 3+ heavy weapons to make your point true, otherwise you are just better off freeing up a few more points to buy an extra squad of Tacticals carrying a Lascannon.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 17:01:02


Post by: Crusaderobr


I know my friend from high school who has played Necron since 3rd edition is overjoyed that his Immortals are back to T5. He doesn't care that the marines got 2 wounds. He says he will easily deal with the overcosted marines with his new 30 inch range they gave Immortals. It is his opinion, as a long time Necron player, that the 30 inch range on Immortals was the biggest buff they could have ever received. A good player will certainly use it to his advantage.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 17:14:36


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


I would like to change my answer from indifferent to seething hatred. Mostly because my Rubrics will to go from 18 points to probably 25 points. Which means 2 10 man squads of Rubrics and 1 10 man SOT will cost 1000 points.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 17:17:14


Post by: Voss


 Crusaderobr wrote:
I know my friend from high school who has played Necron since 3rd edition is overjoyed that his Immortals are back to T5. He doesn't care that the marines got 2 wounds. He says he will easily deal with the overcosted marines with his new 30 inch range they gave Immortals. It is his opinion, as a long time Necron player, that the 30 inch range on Immortals was the biggest buff they could have ever received. A good player will certainly use it to his advantage.


Not following the specific logic on 30" being the 'biggest buff.' If enemy weapons were 24", I could see some merit in it. But in the world of bolt rifles, stalker bolter rifles and even common bolters going to 30" and being able to double tap at max range thanks to Bolter discipline and tactical doctrine on top of that... Just not sure that works out in the gauss blaster's favor. Yes, blasters are S5 and have a good AP, but they're getting shot twice as much by a unit that has roughly the same point cost.
At best its a bad attrition fight. (which might work out if RP gets overhauled, but even then its not good)

Necron players would probably be better off dropping off Sautekh dynasty warriors with the new gauss reapers and relying on cheaper firepower at 14".


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 17:26:44


Post by: blaktoof


I'm okay with it.

As long as all the models are getting a 20% or so points increase to go with it, and a real increase not a we increased the base model points but made their wargear really cheap nonsense.

Marines in the lore are tougher, make it that way in the game, but they are also less numerous, so make it that way in the game as well. This change reflects that.

Yeah your 10 model unit went up, but you can use 5 model units and have the same wounds as the 10 model unit for less points, albeit you are getting less shooting/assault too.



How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 17:28:56


Post by: Insectum7


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Why would a model pay points for the privilege to pay points to get a weapon? Are there existing units that pay for the privilege to get special weapons? Every unit I can think of (GK Purifiers, CSM Chosen, SM veterans + devastators, retributors, dominions) have extra rules/stats that make up the points difference between their regular counterpoints, so they aren't paying for the privilege.

It's why so many units like Devastators and Purgation squads were bad until 5th. They paid considerably more for their weapons just because they could take a couple more. It's bad design.
Mmmm, no. It's recognizing the value of concentrated weapons in a paradigm where units can only engage one target. 1 Heavy in 10 guys is worth less when you give up shooting with every other model when firing it at a tank.

Except it never worked that way. You'd have to buy 3+ heavy weapons to make your point true, otherwise you are just better off freeing up a few more points to buy an extra squad of Tacticals carrying a Lascannon.
It did work that way, and it worked fine. People stil play those editions because they were good editions.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 17:57:38


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Why would a model pay points for the privilege to pay points to get a weapon? Are there existing units that pay for the privilege to get special weapons? Every unit I can think of (GK Purifiers, CSM Chosen, SM veterans + devastators, retributors, dominions) have extra rules/stats that make up the points difference between their regular counterpoints, so they aren't paying for the privilege.

It's why so many units like Devastators and Purgation squads were bad until 5th. They paid considerably more for their weapons just because they could take a couple more. It's bad design.
Mmmm, no. It's recognizing the value of concentrated weapons in a paradigm where units can only engage one target. 1 Heavy in 10 guys is worth less when you give up shooting with every other model when firing it at a tank.

Except it never worked that way. You'd have to buy 3+ heavy weapons to make your point true, otherwise you are just better off freeing up a few more points to buy an extra squad of Tacticals carrying a Lascannon.
It did work that way, and it worked fine. People stil play those editions because they were good editions.

The people that play them have Rose tinted glasses and don't acknowledge those editions are jut as broken and continue to live on in denial. Hell there's people that still actively play Rogue Trader which already pokes a hole in that argument alone. That was NOT a good game.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 18:01:36


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


blaktoof wrote:
I'm okay with it.

As long as all the models are getting a 20% or so points increase to go with it, and a real increase not a we increased the base model points but made their wargear really cheap nonsense.

Marines in the lore are tougher, make it that way in the game, but they are also less numerous, so make it that way in the game as well. This change reflects that.

Yeah your 10 model unit went up, but you can use 5 model units and have the same wounds as the 10 model unit for less points, albeit you are getting less shooting/assault too.


Yeah but that's the problem. Units that are built around a specific idea, like shooting, get shut down for 4 turns because you got charged by a 10 man squad of chaff that costs half the points or less. And it also means mortal wounds become hyper efficient.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 18:05:53


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Ordana wrote:
Xenos are told to play in the kiddie pool for 2 years until their codex comes out that may make them playable.
Two years is it? I thought the new Necron book was coming out in two months.

For all we know, the very next book after the Marine/Necron 'Dexes could be Eldar, or Tau, or Tyranids, or Chaos Daemons.

Acting like it's just the Marines that will get everything whilst everyone else will languish for years is silly.



How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 18:15:46


Post by: Insectum7


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The people that play them have Rose tinted glasses and don't acknowledge those editions are jut as broken and continue to live on in denial. Hell there's people that still actively play Rogue Trader which already pokes a hole in that argument alone. That was NOT a good game.
I don't want to burst your bubble but

A: People can like different things than you
And
B: You're not an authority on "good design".


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 18:23:41


Post by: Daedalus81


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
I would like to change my answer from indifferent to seething hatred. Mostly because my Rubrics will to go from 18 points to probably 25 points. Which means 2 10 man squads of Rubrics and 1 10 man SOT will cost 1000 points.


Seething hatred? Really?

In any case it will probably more like 22. Death Guard on the other hand...they'll be 25+.

The issue is that Rubrics were already weak to D2 and took a lot of heat from those weapons as a result. Being D2 doesn't get them much unless I face a lot of D1 - then they're beast mode. It wouldn't hurt to see the All is Dust rule lose its restriction.

Yet another reason that rushing updates out is a bad idea.



How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 18:29:30


Post by: Apple Peel


Rihgu wrote:
Why would a model pay points for the privilege to pay points to get a weapon? Are there existing units that pay for the privilege to get special weapons? Every unit I can think of (GK Purifiers, CSM Chosen, SM veterans + devastators, retributors, dominions) have extra rules/stats that make up the points difference between their regular counterpoints, so they aren't paying for the privilege.

Scions in command squads. Or maybe they pay for the privilege of not having 6 other Scions at their backs when they can take four special weapons. Some crap as in Killteam.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 18:30:53


Post by: Ordana


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
Xenos are told to play in the kiddie pool for 2 years until their codex comes out that may make them playable.
Two years is it? I thought the new Necron book was coming out in two months.

For all we know, the very next book after the Marine/Necron 'Dexes could be Eldar, or Tau, or Tyranids, or Chaos Daemons.

Acting like it's just the Marines that will get everything whilst everyone else will languish for years is silly.

Why? Its repeated history at this point.
Sure not everyone has to wait 2 years, some a few months, some a year, some longer. But don't pretend like GW is likely to pump out a dozen xeno's books in quick succession to help them recover.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 18:40:34


Post by: skchsan


 Kanluwen wrote:
Guard can be 8 points when they're a 4+ save, everyone has a Lasgun, and they get access to more special weapon options per squad.

Because that's getting into Skitarii points territory, which are 4+/6++ with Canticles(always on across the whole army), 3x special weapons in 10 model squads, and no mandatory weirdly equipped unit leader.
I actually wouldn't mind the old carapace armor upgrade guardsmen squad becoming the baseline.

Guardsmen should be somewhere between where they are now and how scions are.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 18:48:12


Post by: SemperMortis


Still waiting for any guard player to explain how their unit is correctly priced when they are significantly better in every way compared to a Grot but only cost 1pt more.

And lets not even get into the fact that a Boy is now 8ppm but is only slightly more durable than a guardsman and in a sandbox loses to a similar points value of guardsmen.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 18:52:07


Post by: yukishiro1


GW doesn't care about unit cost effectiveness, they care about armies looking like GW wants them to look. Cultists are objectively worse than guardsmen in every single way yet cost a point more. GW isn't so stupid that they think cultists are better than guardsmen, they just don't care, because they want armies of guardsmen but they don't want armies of cultists.

Once you realize that GW literally does not care if one unit is more points efficient than another, what GW does starts to make slightly more sense. It's stupid from the point of view of competitive play, but you start to understand there is at least some method to the madness, if not the method you might want.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 19:40:59


Post by: a_typical_hero


yukishiro1 wrote:
GW doesn't care about unit cost effectiveness, they care about armies looking like GW wants them to look. Cultists are objectively worse than guardsmen in every single way yet cost a point more. GW isn't so stupid that they think cultists are better than guardsmen, they just don't care, because they want armies of guardsmen but they don't want armies of cultists.

Once you realize that GW literally does not care if one unit is more points efficient than another, what GW does starts to make slightly more sense. It's stupid from the point of view of competitive play, but you start to understand there is at least some method to the madness, if not the method you might want.

Mind sharing a source for this one, buddy?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 20:33:06


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The people that play them have Rose tinted glasses and don't acknowledge those editions are jut as broken and continue to live on in denial. Hell there's people that still actively play Rogue Trader which already pokes a hole in that argument alone. That was NOT a good game.
I don't want to burst your bubble but

A: People can like different things than you
And
B: You're not an authority on "good design".

Then by all means get all the Rogue Trader players to help defend their game system as though it were good, I insist.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 20:37:12


Post by: skchsan


a_typical_hero wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
GW doesn't care about unit cost effectiveness, they care about armies looking like GW wants them to look. Cultists are objectively worse than guardsmen in every single way yet cost a point more. GW isn't so stupid that they think cultists are better than guardsmen, they just don't care, because they want armies of guardsmen but they don't want armies of cultists.

Once you realize that GW literally does not care if one unit is more points efficient than another, what GW does starts to make slightly more sense. It's stupid from the point of view of competitive play, but you start to understand there is at least some method to the madness, if not the method you might want.

Mind sharing a source for this one, buddy?
I can't remember off the top of my head, but there was a source (either podcast or whc post) that talked about the rationale behind the point changes for 9th ed. It was said that point changes reflect the kind/size of army they want portrayed on the tabletop, more so than aiming for balance issues.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 20:41:24


Post by: Voss


 skchsan wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Guard can be 8 points when they're a 4+ save, everyone has a Lasgun, and they get access to more special weapon options per squad.

Because that's getting into Skitarii points territory, which are 4+/6++ with Canticles(always on across the whole army), 3x special weapons in 10 model squads, and no mandatory weirdly equipped unit leader.
I actually wouldn't mind the old carapace armor upgrade guardsmen squad becoming the baseline.

Guardsmen should be somewhere between where they are now and how scions are.


I'm really not sure what your basis for this is. Guardsmen are significantly undervalued for what they currently have, and several of their special and heavy weapons are getting buffs.

I'm not sure what the space between guardsmen and scions even is. They can't really go to BS 3.5 and save 4.5 anyway, and nothing comes to mind as justifying stat improvements anyway. As is they need to go up in points without stat improvements,


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 20:54:54


Post by: skchsan


Voss wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Guard can be 8 points when they're a 4+ save, everyone has a Lasgun, and they get access to more special weapon options per squad.

Because that's getting into Skitarii points territory, which are 4+/6++ with Canticles(always on across the whole army), 3x special weapons in 10 model squads, and no mandatory weirdly equipped unit leader.
I actually wouldn't mind the old carapace armor upgrade guardsmen squad becoming the baseline.

Guardsmen should be somewhere between where they are now and how scions are.


I'm really not sure what your basis for this is. Guardsmen are significantly undervalued for what they currently have, and several of their special and heavy weapons are getting buffs.

I'm not sure what the space between guardsmen and scions even is. They can't really go to BS 3.5 and save 4.5 anyway, and nothing comes to mind as justifying stat improvements anyway. As is they need to go up in points without stat improvements,
Well, adjusting from 5+ Sv to 4+ Sv is more or less negligible due to proliferation of AP on weapons and the overwhelming lethality currently present in the game.

So if that's what it's going to take hardcore 'guardsmen guards' to admit guardsmen are grossly undercosted, so be it. BS/WS 5+, T/S 3, 1W, 4+ Sv, 8 ppm guardsmen sounds pretty fair to me.

Leave the 5+ Sv to the conscripts and keep them at 5 ppm. (Actually, just haul them out by invoking the 'no-model-no-rule' policy. Technically there are no models for 'conscripts'. They're just infantry squad painted with white helmets.)





How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 21:05:22


Post by: Daedalus81


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
Xenos are told to play in the kiddie pool for 2 years until their codex comes out that may make them playable.
Two years is it? I thought the new Necron book was coming out in two months.

For all we know, the very next book after the Marine/Necron 'Dexes could be Eldar, or Tau, or Tyranids, or Chaos Daemons.

Acting like it's just the Marines that will get everything whilst everyone else will languish for years is silly.



With 4 supplements and this upcoming codex marines will almost be done for the edition (or until a new wave of models) - the only exception is GK.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 21:18:22


Post by: Jidmah


They might get two codices again though

At least this time they don't need to fill half their campaign books with the same datasheets in different colors.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 21:19:18


Post by: techsoldaten


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
I would like to change my answer from indifferent to seething hatred. Mostly because my Rubrics will to go from 18 points to probably 25 points. Which means 2 10 man squads of Rubrics and 1 10 man SOT will cost 1000 points.


Seething hatred? Really?

In any case it will probably more like 22. Death Guard on the other hand...they'll be 25+.

The issue is that Rubrics were already weak to D2 and took a lot of heat from those weapons as a result. Being D2 doesn't get them much unless I face a lot of D1 - then they're beast mode. It wouldn't hurt to see the All is Dust rule lose its restriction.

Yet another reason that rushing updates out is a bad idea.


Difference between CSM and Intercessor is 3 ppm. I'm expecting GW to hold true to this ratio on the wounds. Anything more than that would be seriously disappointing.

But I wouldn't be seething with hatred.

A CSM Assault Drill with 2 5x Plasma Chosen squads supporting 3 deep-striking Obliterators will wreck a lot of armies, even if the Chosen were 30ppm. Opponent would need to chew through a lot of wounds to avoid getting double blasted.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 21:22:11


Post by: Insectum7


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The people that play them have Rose tinted glasses and don't acknowledge those editions are jut as broken and continue to live on in denial. Hell there's people that still actively play Rogue Trader which already pokes a hole in that argument alone. That was NOT a good game.
I don't want to burst your bubble but

A: People can like different things than you
And
B: You're not an authority on "good design".

Then by all means get all the Rogue Trader players to help defend their game system as though it were good, I insist.
I'm under no such obligation.

Better yet: Define "good".


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 22:00:36


Post by: Castozor


 Daedalus81 wrote:


Seething hatred? Really?

In any case it will probably more like 22. Death Guard on the other hand...they'll be 25+.

The issue is that Rubrics were already weak to D2 and took a lot of heat from those weapons as a result. Being D2 doesn't get them much unless I face a lot of D1 - then they're beast mode. It wouldn't hurt to see the All is Dust rule lose its restriction.

Yet another reason that rushing updates out is a bad idea.


25+ for a PM, when they are 18 now? I think not, surely not even GW would value one additional wounds at 7+ points for an infantry model.
As for the change I like it, I still think 2 wounds base infantry is busted but at least for my PM it makes sense, they will finally be as though as they should be. I am however furious that this will be rolled out per codex rather than all at once. It makes no sense, and truthfully kills my will to play this edition until everyone has had their appropriate update.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 22:05:15


Post by: yukishiro1


The second wound is worth way more on a model with a 5+++, so if GW has any brains it'll have to be more than the 3 point increase for tacticals; 4 at the bare minimum, but more likely 5, possibly even 6.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 22:05:36


Post by: Daedalus81


 Castozor wrote:

25+ for a PM, when they are 18 now? I think not, surely not even GW would value one additional wounds at 7+ points for an infantry model.
As for the change I like it, I still think 2 wounds base infantry is busted but at least for my PM it makes sense, they will finally be as though as they should be. I am however furious that this will be rolled out per codex rather than all at once. It makes no sense, and truthfully kills my will to play this edition until everyone has had their appropriate update.


PMs aren't so straightforward. It isnt just an extra T4 wound...

It's an extra T5 5+++ wound with DR bonuses available. D2 weapons are useful on them now. This means D3 weapons will be needed to crack them reliably. And since neither is practical it goes to strong D1 weapons, which is counter productive.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 22:08:32


Post by: yukishiro1


Even a 3 damage weapon will only kill a PM 75% of failed saves, with a 2 damage weapon killing them less than half the time. Add on rerolling 1s and maybe even 1s and 2s and the probabilities drop even lower. They're going to need quite a huge points hike to not be brokenly resilient.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 22:13:39


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 22:15:01


Post by: yukishiro1


Well, except that a unit of 10 can delete a knight with mortal wound grenades from 12" away.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 22:16:00


Post by: vipoid


Rihgu wrote:
Why would a model pay points for the privilege to pay points to get a weapon?


I don't know, ask DE Trueborn.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 23:06:30


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 vipoid wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Why would a model pay points for the privilege to pay points to get a weapon?


I don't know, ask DE Trueborn.

What Trueborn? I don't see any Trueborn anywhere!


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 23:07:02


Post by: Daedalus81


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?


Yea, but when you gotta get them off an objective they win by doing nothing.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/14 23:55:09


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?


Yea, but when you gotta get them off an objective they win by doing nothing.

They were already like that before the additional wound but nobody was taking them anyway. I think you'll be okay.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 00:44:20


Post by: Crusaderobr


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?


Not when you equip them properly. You could go full specialist close combat squad with them, 10 man in Rhino with 2 mace of contagions and 8 bubotic axes. That will mess up any elite infantry squad. Or if you wanna charge the big stuff, add powerfist, 2 meltaguns, and 2 great plage cleavers. The bonus attack from the special rules from PA really improved them alot.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 01:20:04


Post by: Daedalus81


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?


Yea, but when you gotta get them off an objective they win by doing nothing.

They were already like that before the additional wound but nobody was taking them anyway. I think you'll be okay.


I'm not complaining. I'm just saying why I think they would be naturally higher priced.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 01:50:58


Post by: Rinkydink


i actually feel that an army that I spent hundreds of dollars on, countless hours and a lot of love is now relevant again.

Happy indeed.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 03:15:53


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Crusaderobr wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?


Not when you equip them properly. You could go full specialist close combat squad with them, 10 man in Rhino with 2 mace of contagions and 8 bubotic axes. That will mess up any elite infantry squad. Or if you wanna charge the big stuff, add powerfist, 2 meltaguns, and 2 great plage cleavers. The bonus attack from the special rules from PA really improved them alot.

LOL it really doesn't. They're a 5" unit without movement capabilities/shenanigans and then 2 attacks with zero shooting equipped like that.

Nobody will take the unit seriously even with the wound bonus. They'll charge, not kill whatever it is, and then sit pitifully.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 03:45:33


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Daedalus81 wrote:
With 4 supplements and this upcoming codex marines will almost be done for the edition (or until a new wave of models) - the only exception is GK.
The question then is, will the new supplements have Crusade content, leaving Imperial Fists/Salamanders/White Scars/Raven Guard/Ultramarines/Iron Hands without their own Chapter-specific Crusade stuff. That'd suck.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 03:49:37


Post by: BrianDavion


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
With 4 supplements and this upcoming codex marines will almost be done for the edition (or until a new wave of models) - the only exception is GK.
The question then is, will the new supplements have Crusade content, leaving Imperial Fists/Salamanders/White Scars/Raven Guard/Ultramarines/Iron Hands without their own Chapter-specific Crusade stuff. That'd suck.


hard to say, that said most of the current supplement chapters are pretty similer in structure so their crusade stuff could easily be managed in the main book, while the supplement would have special rules like "ohh that grey hunter squad turned into wulfen. that blood angel squad was taken by the rage and became death company etc"

there's no real need for any of that in say "codex supplement raven guard" a core crusade rule allowing say... a squad to become veterns is all that would be needed.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 06:46:39


Post by: Jidmah


yukishiro1 wrote:Well, except that a unit of 10 can delete a knight with mortal wound grenades from 12" away.

Plague genades require a character to be nearby to not be inferior to just shooting your bolter. You don't cost units according to what buffs could be nearby maybe.


Crusaderobr wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?


Not when you equip them properly. You could go full specialist close combat squad with them, 10 man in Rhino with 2 mace of contagions and 8 bubotic axes. That will mess up any elite infantry squad. Or if you wanna charge the big stuff, add powerfist, 2 meltaguns, and 2 great plage cleavers. The bonus attack from the special rules from PA really improved them alot.


The extra attack is for plague knives only and -1 to hit weapons are terrible on models with just two attacks. Bubotic axes basically turn plague marines into an unbuffed possessed with less movement and no 5++, not exactly something people have been running wild with. Not to mention that all those melee weapons would add 60-100 points to the unit's cost.
And most importantly, they could already do all that since the beginning, and yet no one is using plague marines that way. If they do, it's always blight launchers, bolters and maybe a plasmagun.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 06:49:30


Post by: wuestenfux


Well, I think its not a bad idea for some reasons.
Tacticals will sell and as in AoS heavily armoured units have 2W anyway.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 06:55:50


Post by: BrianDavion


 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I think its not a bad idea for some reasons.
Tacticals will sell and as in AoS heavily armoured units have 2W anyway.


over all 40k has done a poor job at diffrentiating of late between heavy and light infantry, so this seems to be the direction they're taking.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 06:56:41


Post by: Jidmah


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Castozor wrote:

25+ for a PM, when they are 18 now? I think not, surely not even GW would value one additional wounds at 7+ points for an infantry model.
As for the change I like it, I still think 2 wounds base infantry is busted but at least for my PM it makes sense, they will finally be as though as they should be. I am however furious that this will be rolled out per codex rather than all at once. It makes no sense, and truthfully kills my will to play this edition until everyone has had their appropriate update.


PMs aren't so straightforward. It isnt just an extra T4 wound...

It's an extra T5 5+++ wound with DR bonuses available. D2 weapons are useful on them now. This means D3 weapons will be needed to crack them reliably. And since neither is practical it goes to strong D1 weapons, which is counter productive.


I kind of agree with Castozor here. The most reliable way to kill plague marines right now are weapons with 6 or more strength, decent ROF and some AP-1 or -2 and I doubt this will change much.
While the wound should be more expensive than the one on the tactical marine, it should be no more than 23. It would also be expensive enough to keep a mega-blob of 20 plague marines with all the buffs from becoming a problem instead of a fun gimmick.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 15:10:36


Post by: CapRichard


I remember when it was suggested like a bazillion times here to give two wounds to all marines... And now it's done.

So happy to have everyone have the opposite opinion than before.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 15:22:25


Post by: vipoid


CapRichard wrote:
I remember when it was suggested like a bazillion times here to give two wounds to all marines... And now it's done.

So happy to have everyone have the opposite opinion than before.


I don't think the issue is with Marines getting 2 wounds apiece. The issue is with Marines getting even more buffs at the start of the new edition, after already being laden with buffs through the previous edition, whilst every other army is stuck waiting for their codices, and most clearly won't be getting anything close to even treatment even then.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 15:28:03


Post by: bullyboy


 vipoid wrote:
CapRichard wrote:
I remember when it was suggested like a bazillion times here to give two wounds to all marines... And now it's done.

So happy to have everyone have the opposite opinion than before.


I don't think the issue is with Marines getting 2 wounds apiece. The issue is with Marines getting even more buffs at the start of the new edition, after already being laden with buffs through the previous edition, whilst every other army is stuck waiting for their codices, and most clearly won't be getting anything close to even treatment even then.


Exactly this. 8th was still suffering from marine fatigue when all went into lockdown, and the state of the game as people start to emerge? Increased buffs for that same faction, instead of addressing other armies to allow them to catch up and compete.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 16:13:20


Post by: Insectum7


Also, I'm not happy that it sometimes becomes more point effective to shoot at vehicles with small arms than at Marines. That's really wierd. Like shooting at a Predator returns a better value when engaging with a bolter. That feels very wrong.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 16:18:08


Post by: Ordana


CapRichard wrote:
I remember when it was suggested like a bazillion times here to give two wounds to all marines... And now it's done.

So happy to have everyone have the opposite opinion than before.
I'm going to assume those sugguestions where before Marine 2.0 dex.
People are pissed because Marines were hugely buffed and completely dominant after their new dex, and now they are getting more buffs.

As I said previously, if GW wants to rebalance elite units and some weapons but started with Xenos armies instead of Marines who are already alone at the top there would be a LOT less pushback against this.


How do you feel about ALL Marines getting bumped to 2 wounds base? @ 2020/08/15 16:21:20


Post by: Niiru


CapRichard wrote:
I remember when it was suggested like a bazillion times here to give two wounds to all marines... And now it's done.

So happy to have everyone have the opposite opinion than before.



Hardly anyone has the opposite opinion. Marines having 2 wounds is fine.

Marines having the most overbuffed codex in existence in 8th, and then being the only codex released in 9th, which ALSO contains a large number of significant further buffs, while every other army has to wait at least a year (some more like 3 years) before they even find out if they will be playable in 9th or not - this is what people are objecting to.

Space marine codex should have been done last. Its already more than fine now. Or all armies get a buff via chapter approved or something so the balance is instant and not dragged out.