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 Insectum7 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Cornishman wrote:

However one of the eternal problems of the T4 1W 3+ set up has been that they are vulnerable both to mass low str low ap anti personel weapons, and high str high AP anti-tank weapons. . . .

Why should marines NOT be vulnerable to massed small arms fire? It took about 20 GEQ Lasgun shots to kill a marine.

Now it will take 40.

In cover, it will take 80.
Oh noes, it'll take a whole ONE squad of guardsmen to kill a marine now!
And what about GEQ who don't have Orders? Cultists, Gaunts, etc.

Should it really take a whole 10 man squad of CSM to Bolter down a marine, too? It appears that's what it takes. 20 Bolters makes 2.2 wounds not in cover.


given that CSMs will have the same advantages it's IMHO a wash re CSMs

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Dakka Veteran





 Brother Castor wrote:

To the Rhino boys! It's time for a beer.


We need a new driver, this one is dead

Gonna enjoy trying out my World Eaters with these changes. My Berzerkers literally died like flies in their last game.

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Before going to 2W, tactical marines are 3x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, and cost 3x as much. Post change, they will be 6x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, while costing 3.6 times as much.

Did we really think it was a problem that marines were only 3x as hard to kill with small arms fire as normal humans? Superhuman = 3x as hard to kill with normal weapons wasn't superhuman enough?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/13 22:20:52


 
   
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Walking Dead Wraithlord






GW has deemd 1W on a space marine pumped to the gills of that stacking rules juice, to be worth 3 pts...

Even IF/WHEN xenos weapany gets bumped in Damage (and thus cost right?), given their hard on for multiples of 5s for weapons it would mean that each weapon would go up at least 5pts in order to deliver the extra damage meaning its still far more efficient o be a tac marine than to be anything else..

In perspective.. A warlock has 2 wounds and is 60pts and is a HQ choice.

Hope ya'll ready for some insane codex creep coz things are going to get nuts... big shame. Was actually was excited for about 5 minutes for the new edition.

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




As though the Warlock was worth 60 to begin with.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






BrianDavion wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Cornishman wrote:

However one of the eternal problems of the T4 1W 3+ set up has been that they are vulnerable both to mass low str low ap anti personel weapons, and high str high AP anti-tank weapons. . . .

Why should marines NOT be vulnerable to massed small arms fire? It took about 20 GEQ Lasgun shots to kill a marine.

Now it will take 40.

In cover, it will take 80.
Oh noes, it'll take a whole ONE squad of guardsmen to kill a marine now!
And what about GEQ who don't have Orders? Cultists, Gaunts, etc.

Should it really take a whole 10 man squad of CSM to Bolter down a marine, too? It appears that's what it takes. 20 Bolters makes 2.2 wounds not in cover.


given that CSMs will have the same advantages it's IMHO a wash re CSMs
Beside the point. My issue has less to do with per-point comparative combat ability and more to do with the effectiveness of small arms in either small engagement infantry battles or among hordes who are also getting hit with Blast rules.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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Regular Dakkanaut




yukishiro1 wrote:
Before going to 2W, tactical marines are 3x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, and cost 3x as much. Post change, they will be 6x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, while costing 3.6 times as much. ..


By this logic, at present with 1W they both die as easily as on another to a meltagun (hit) , so should they cost the same? With 2W the Tactical marine will survive slightly more than a guard, so should only cost slighty more than a guard?
   
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Yeah sick I can't wait for it. New muhreens profiles? 2W? New weapon profiles? Yay.

Can't wait to see what they do with tyranid statlines, when the codex releases. Lol what was I thinking, why would anyone release sweeping changes to faction core rules all at once? Nah, better drip it out piecemeal.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Cornishman wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Before going to 2W, tactical marines are 3x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, and cost 3x as much. Post change, they will be 6x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, while costing 3.6 times as much. ..


By this logic, at present with 1W they both die as easily as on another to a meltagun (hit) , so should they cost the same? With 2W the Tactical marine will survive slightly more than a guard, so should only cost slighty more than a guard?


That's not the same logic. If you want to make that argument yourself feel free to do so, but don't make bad arguments simply so you can falsely attribute them to someone else. That's a waste of everyone's time.

I was responding to people who said that 1W marines didn't feel tough enough. The change, as you note, has very little impact on their ability to survive heavy weapons. But it has a massive effect on their ability to survive small arms fire. Hence my question re: whether anyone thought the problem with 1W tactical marines was that being 3x as resistant to small arms fire wasn't enough? Because that's the only way this change makes sense, if people really did think that being 3x as hard to kill with small arms fire as a guardsmen was insufficiently heroic.
   
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Dakka Veteran





yukishiro1 wrote:
Before going to 2W, tactical marines are 3x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, and cost 3x as much. Post change, they will be 6x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, while costing 3.6 times as much.

Did we really think it was a problem that marines were only 3x as hard to kill with small arms fire as normal humans? Superhuman = 3x as hard to kill with normal weapons wasn't superhuman enough?


And Heavy Bolters kill twice the number of Marines in 9th...?

Use weapons for what they're good at and don't complain when weapons who are bad at doing X... are bad at doing X.

Aim your lasguns at SM Vehicles and or tougher units instead and not their basic marines, you might as well.
That's what I'm gonna do with my IG at least.




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Longtime Dakkanaut




You're not addressing the question. If you don't want to answer the question that's fine, you certainly don't have to. But please don't make assumptions about what I am or am not arguing if I haven't actually argued it.
   
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Gig Harbor, WA

I am ecstatic about this change. I am absolutely going to go out and kitbash at least one, maybe two, tactical squads with intercessor bodies.

To me the tactical squad IS what it is to be a space marine. I love that they're keeping them relevant. I was ready to see the firstborn go gently into the night, because the primaris just look so much better, but this is the way better option!

Now just let Primaris ride in StormRavens!
   
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Walking Dead Wraithlord






 MinscS2 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Before going to 2W, tactical marines are 3x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, and cost 3x as much. Post change, they will be 6x as hard to kill with a lasgun as a guardsmen, while costing 3.6 times as much.

Did we really think it was a problem that marines were only 3x as hard to kill with small arms fire as normal humans? Superhuman = 3x as hard to kill with normal weapons wasn't superhuman enough?


And Heavy Bolters kill twice the number of Marines in 9th...?

Use weapons for what they're good at and don't complain when weapons who are bad at doing X... are bad at doing X.

Aim your lasguns at SM Vehicles and or tougher units instead and not their basic marines, you might as well.
That's what I'm gonna do with my IG at least.






In other words: "ohh just use that new improved weapon SM get to kill those new improved SM units"

"But I don't have any Spa..."

"STFU NPC!! your opinion is infuriating. Just get on with it"



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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
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Dakka Veteran





yukishiro1 wrote:
You're not addressing the question. If you don't want to answer the question that's fine, you certainly don't have to. But please don't make assumptions about what I am or am not arguing if I haven't actually argued it.


Was there an actual, serious question in there? I thought it was just rant about Space Marines, since that seems to be your current jam.

Regardless, Firstborn going to 2W won't actually make marines "harder to kill", since if dakkadakka has learned my anything this summer it's that Primaris are the only things SM-players play, so with Firstborn (that "no one uses anyway") getting an additional wound won't actually make a difference in the end, because you're not raising the bar for Primaris, you're just raising the bar for Firstborn so it now reaches the same height as Primaris.

Basically: You're used to face 2W-marines, and you'll continue to face 2W-marines.
The main difference now is that Marines-players have some more, previously neglected units to pick from, making the lists more varied, which is technically a win for everyone involved.

 Argive wrote:

In other words: "ohh just use that new improved weapon SM get to kill those new improved SM units"

"But I don't have any Spa..."

"STFU NPC!! your opinion is infuriating. Just get on with it"




I'm fairly certain that IG, who yukishiro1 used as an example have ample Heavy Bolters at their disposal, even if he plays a "NPC faction".
(I assume this is some current meta-word on dakkadakka. Can't wait for it to die and go away, it's super-lame.)

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It depends on how fast they roll out fixes for other factions. If all Marines get their +1 wound and weapons get fixed etc, but it takes 2 years for Guardsmen or Genestealer Cultists or Orks or whatnot to get the tools to fight them, it will be awful. If, however, in the hotfixes they throw out with the new Marine book all Orks get +1 wound, Guard gets access to a new order to mitigate the Marine buffs somewhat, and so on, it could work out.

We also don't know if the new codices will be a complete new design paradigm. Marines could see losses in strategems, buff auras, rerolls, etc. If GW can actually pull it off to be somewhat balanced I am all for this change, I just have low faith in GW actually pulling it off..

Also I love the comparisons of Guardsmen to Tactical Marines going on in this thread. Very reminiscent of 2 years ago when the argument was being made the exact opposite way on why Guardsmen were the best infantry unit in the game and Tac Marines were brokenly bad, that always devolved into one person not factoring point costs into buffing units, and another asking why both units only had their baseline gun and no other equipment, etc
   
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 MinscS2 wrote:


Was there an actual, serious question in there? I thought it was just rant about Space Marines, since that seems to be your current jam.



The "actual, serious question" was explicitly written. You chose to ignore the explicit question and instead rather bizarrely interpret it as a rant, because you decided to make things personal and react based on your opinion of the poster rather than what they actually wrote. I can't stop you from doing that, but it's a massive waste of everyone's time.

It's clear you aren't interested in answering the question so I don't think further engagement is going to be useful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/13 23:22:53


 
   
Made in us
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As far as I'm concerned, this is something that should have happened at the start of 8th, completely independent of any balance issues we have right now.
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





yukishiro1 wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:


Was there an actual, serious question in there? I thought it was just rant about Space Marines, since that seems to be your current jam.



The "actual, serious question" was explicitly written. You chose to ignore the explicit question and instead rather bizarrely interpret it as a rant, because you decided to make things personal and react based on your opinion of the poster rather than what they actually wrote. I can't stop you from doing that, but it's a massive waste of everyone's time.

It's clear you aren't interested in answering the question so I don't think further engagement is going to be useful.


It's fine, you don't seem that interested in having an actual discussion anyway, or you would've explained what the actual question was in your first reply.

I'll say it again though; Heavy Bolters are twice at effective at killing 2W-marines now.
If you have an actual problem with Lasguns being bad at killing marines (they always where to be fair, they just went from "bad" to "even worse"), adapt and use something else. It's not like IG don't have the tools at their disposal to deal with 2W-marines.

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Mississippi

As a marine player I really like this change to all my Firstborn.

As an Eldar player I feel like I should just sit out till we what singular build our codex can compete with this edition.

As a Marine Player I love all the new models coming out.

As an Eldar player I realize we aren't ever going to see a revamp due to getting screwed by GW's Blood of the Phoenix debacle causing massive low sales.

As a marine player I don't think I should play my marines against my friends because even pulling my punches I outclass them by a HUGE margin.

I'm very conflicted about what's going down right now.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 MinscS2 wrote:


It's fine, you don't seem that interested in having an actual discussion anyway, or you would've explained what the actual question was in your first reply.


yukishiro1 wrote:

Did we really think it was a problem that marines were only 3x as hard to kill with small arms fire as normal humans? Superhuman = 3x as hard to kill with normal weapons wasn't superhuman enough?


Are you having trouble seeing the question mark and figuring out what part of that is a question? I am honestly stumped here. I don't think the question could be any clearer.

People said they liked this change because it makes space marines better at surviving small arms fire. Hence my observation that they were already 3x as good at it as normal humans, and my question as to whether people thought that wasn't enough to represent their superiority. Really not seeing what isn't crystal clear about the question?



   
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Stasis

I'm an Oldcron player, so,I'm not really a fan of some of the things their doing to my faction, however...

Ok, about all the new SM changes, like most of us, I'm not a fan, it makes my immortal terminators as tough as a guardsman.

I found the numbers needed to take down a single marine to be rediculous. The only way this works, is if somehow they get costed closer to Custodes. These rules certainly make marines feel more like the lore, which is aggravating as all hell as a non SM player (and a XENOS one at that.).

What's that line "a Space Marine is worth 100 other men."(the context being 1 Marine is equal to 100 guardsmen.)?

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yukishiro1 wrote:

Are you having trouble seeing the question mark and figuring out what part of that is a question? I am honestly stumped here. I don't think the question could be any clearer.

People said they liked this change because it makes space marines better at surviving small arms fire. Hence my observation that they were already 3x as good at it as normal humans, and my question as to whether people thought that wasn't enough to represent their superiority. Really not seeing what isn't crystal clear about the question?


Because it honestly sounded like a rhetorical rant-question:
Lasguns where already really bad at dealing with marines, and 2W marines have been a common thing for over 3 years, and how many Firstborn-units do you usually play against? (So how much of a difference will it really make?)

But to answer your question: "Yes".
Firstborn Marines/Chaos Marines died way to easily to smallarms-fire relative to their cost, compared to Primaris Marines.

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I'm intrigued by it. I'm especially interested to see how they're going to handle keeping game balance whilst they roll out this granularity to every faction-or whether they even will at all.

 insaniak wrote:

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Ok, so you actually do think that marines being only 3x as tough as a normal human to small arms fire wasn't superior enough, and that their superiority needed to be further increased.

Glad we cleared that one up, though it woulda been a lot faster if we could have avoided 5 posts worth of back and forth about alleged rants.


   
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I'm very excited that cult marines and chosen can step out of cover without being wiped out at will. I could have done without the buff on regular CSM/TAC marines to help differentiate veteran units from more run of the mill.

For the guard issue, it seems like there may finally be a reason to take veteran squads again. They're relatively cheap elites choice that can bring a good amount of plasma to bear. Might be worth taking a squad or two in a chimera to hop out and delete a flank of troops.

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Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Ultimately an army with 2 wounds each has a lot going for it.



Seriously, for the amount of gak I get here for being "overly negative" (completely untrue), reading threads like this really make me feel warm and fuzzy on the inside as I ain't got gak on the people in this thread.

I think this change is fantastic. Making Marines (more of less) the same across the board and changing up weapons (across the game). The fact that these changes apply to Guard and Sisters and Chaos as well is even better. It's a big shake-up, it Marines act like the elite units they're meant to be, and arms them with very dangerous weapons.

In all honesty the only thing I don't like is 30" bolters. I think that with GW's new standard recommended minimum sized tables, putting more things in range of one another from turn 1 isn't the best idea.

 LunarSol wrote:
It's a little weird. I had kind of accepted that Primaris were going to phase out classic marines, but apparently they were just a beta test?
They still will, this is just the next phase of that very long-term plan.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The nice thing is people who want to mod Intercessors into First Born get the best of both worlds. Its a pretty great move.
Of course it is. It makes phasing the First Born out far easier as well.

Siegfriedfr wrote:
I feel like GW is schizophrenic, they were that close to retiring oldmarines, and try to make them relevant again.
They're blurring the lines between First Born and Primaris, so that when they start phasing out the older kits it's not as jarring a moment.

 Cruentus wrote:
3) GW will never make it through the entire development cycle to get all the 40k codexes out to this "new" approach. Never have, never will. Halfway through, someone will change their mind, and they'll go off in a new direction.
That's a given. GW's party trick is changing horses mid-race, sometimes multiple times.
   
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This makes some of the points costs make more sense. Weapons and wargear that are going to be mass-updated in October across all codices were given points with that in mind (so as if the update was already rolled out).
Presumably the units themselves will get new points. How big of a problem this is will be based on what the point raises are.

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Rihgu wrote:
This makes some of the points costs make more sense. Weapons and wargear that are going to be mass-updated in October across all codices were given points with that in mind (so as if the update was already rolled out).
Presumably the units themselves will get new points. How big of a problem this is will be based on what the point raises are.


I don't buy that.. Coz a bunch of stuff is really whack. I mean really whack... And they are pointed accordingly to a codex that might drop in a year or more by which point we are likely to get another CA points adjustment as well as the codex points when the eventual codex comes out?

It just seems like plain ol negligence/incompetence.

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


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Terrifying Doombull




Rihgu wrote:
This makes some of the points costs make more sense. Weapons and wargear that are going to be mass-updated in October across all codices were given points with that in mind (so as if the update was already rolled out).
Presumably the units themselves will get new points. How big of a problem this is will be based on what the point raises are.


That doesn't follow.
Seriously, one thing we know for certain about tactical marines going to 2W is they're also going to 18 points, up from the 15 they were just given. The 15 point tactical marine in CA2020 is for the 1W marine.


The 9 point kabalite, however bizarre and unjustified, is for the current version of the kabalite. Not some theoretical future version. Same for everything else.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/14 01:40:43


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 Argive wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
This makes some of the points costs make more sense. Weapons and wargear that are going to be mass-updated in October across all codices were given points with that in mind (so as if the update was already rolled out).
Presumably the units themselves will get new points. How big of a problem this is will be based on what the point raises are.


I don't buy that.. Coz a bunch of stuff is really whack. I mean really whack... And they are pointed accordingly to a codex that might drop in a year or more by which point we are likely to get another CA points adjustment as well as the codex points when the eventual codex comes out?

It just seems like plain ol negligence/incompetence.

No, that's the opposite of what I said. I said that they (multi-meltas, power weapons, chainfists, thunder hammers, etc) are pointed according to a universal release that will come out in October alongside the Space Marine codex, which will give multi-meltas, power weapons, chainfists, thunder hammers, etc. new stats which will roll out to numerous codexes all at once. This is to prevent a scenario where they release points costs for all these weapons and then have to release a FAQ with new points costs for every faction affected.
All units are pointed according to their current stats and abilities. Even in bizarre cases like Kabalite Warriors.

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