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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

- 30 Guardsmen: 57 shots, 28,5 hits, 9,5 wounds, 3,17 wounds after saves. That's ~47,5 points worth of dead Tacticals.

It would be 3.17 * 9 = 29 points of marines since each wound is "half" of their cost.

It doesn't change the perspective much though.

All this math is making my brain hurt.

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
According to the leaks I got Tyranid Warriors are 27 points with an Assault 3 S5 AP-1 24" Deathspitter with a BS of 4+. They are 3W but T4 and 4+ save. 3 attacks though.

T5 and 3+ is definitely worth more than a point or two over T4 4+. But offensively the Deathspitter helps the Warrior with its Assault 3.

I think 28 is a little low, but not too far off.

And Synapse. And Move 6, 3A and Scything talons for +1A. Heavy Intercessors do not (until we get Heavy Assault Intercessors) have 3A base, and a +1A chain sword.

Like I said, they're not too far off, but I'd put a value of over a couple points on the T5 3+.

Synapse is hard to value. It isn't really an advantage for the Warriors themselves, it's more often an advantage for the units around them while making the Warriors a juicier target. Tricky comparison.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
According to the leaks I got Tyranid Warriors are 27 points with an Assault 3 S5 AP-1 24" Deathspitter with a BS of 4+. They are 3W but T4 and 4+ save. 3 attacks though.

T5 and 3+ is definitely worth more than a point or two over T4 4+. But offensively the Deathspitter helps the Warrior with its Assault 3.

I think 28 is a little low, but not too far off.

And Synapse. And Move 6, 3A and Scything talons for +1A. Heavy Intercessors do not (until we get Heavy Assault Intercessors) have 3A base, and a +1A chain sword.

Like I said, they're not too far off, but I'd put a value of over a couple points on the T5 3+.

Synapse is hard to value. It isn't really an advantage for the Warriors themselves, it's more often an advantage for the units around them while making the Warriors a juicier target. Tricky comparison.

You’re still skipping the dual phase load Warriors have which Heavy Intercessors do not, until the 2022 Indomitus The Return box with Heavy Assault Intercessors with pistols combat shields and chain swords.

 Insectum7 wrote:
According to the leaks I got...

Tyranid leaks?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
According to the leaks I got...

Tyranid leaks?

given the 'nid codex isn't coming soon I'd be skeptical of any annoucned 'nid leaks.

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
According to the leaks I got Tyranid Warriors are 27 points with an Assault 3 S5 AP-1 24" Deathspitter with a BS of 4+. They are 3W but T4 and 4+ save. 3 attacks though.

T5 and 3+ is definitely worth more than a point or two over T4 4+. But offensively the Deathspitter helps the Warrior with its Assault 3.

I think 28 is a little low, but not too far off.

And Synapse. And Move 6, 3A and Scything talons for +1A. Heavy Intercessors do not (until we get Heavy Assault Intercessors) have 3A base, and a +1A chain sword.

Scything Talons don't give +1A, they give re-roll 1s. Boneswords give AP-2 and +1A, but they're expensive.

And unless Shock Assault is going away, those Heavy Intercessors have the same number of attacks in melee in the first round of combat.

FWIW 27pts is the current cost of a Warrior with Deathspitter and Scything Talons, and they're generally regarded as weak unless you pump Adaptive Physiologies and Stratagems into them. 22-25pts would be a better price for their capabilities; they're pretty comparable to Intercessors. W3/4+ versus W2/3+, S5 Assault 3 at BS4+ versus S4 RF2 at BS3+ with Bolter Discipline, and nearly identical first-round performance in melee; plus Marines get Doctrines and better subfaction traits. They'll need some pretty hefty army-wide buffs to be useful at their current cost.

 catbarf wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
According to the leaks I got Tyranid Warriors are 27 points with an Assault 3 S5 AP-1 24" Deathspitter with a BS of 4+. They are 3W but T4 and 4+ save. 3 attacks though.

T5 and 3+ is definitely worth more than a point or two over T4 4+. But offensively the Deathspitter helps the Warrior with its Assault 3.

I think 28 is a little low, but not too far off.

And Synapse. And Move 6, 3A and Scything talons for +1A. Heavy Intercessors do not (until we get Heavy Assault Intercessors) have 3A base, and a +1A chain sword.

Scything Talons don't give +1A, they give re-roll 1s. Boneswords give AP-2 and +1A, but they're expensive.

My bad I missed the Two Pairs of... part in my first look. Point remains they have both Fight and Shoot weapon loads and that usually costs a premium.

Astartes Chainsword: Gets +1A just for existing.
Scything Talons: Need 4 of the fething things to get the same result.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Astartes Chainsword: Gets +1A just for existing.
Scything Talons: Need 4 of the fething things to get the same result.

I'd like to see that changed yeah, 'nids should be terrifying in close combat. maybe give em an extra attack for every 2 scything talons they have or something

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 argonak wrote:
I suppose Heavy Intercessors would finally give my Repulsor a real job. A demi-squad can actually benefit from the speed and can hold an objective when it gets to where its going.

They certainly seem like they were intended as marine killers too with their statline.

.

Repulsors won’t have a job until they can live long enough to do it. Vehicles in general need a massive upgrade. They’re worse off than they were with armor facings. More guns can now hurt them, and the ones that could before can do it even easier. S9 LC’s “wounded” AV14 on 5’s. Now on 3’s. S8 wounded on 6’s, now on 4’s.

And one S9 Lascannon shot could blow up a Land Raider.

Now, you need three at the ABSOLUTE minimum. On average, you'd need five failed saves, which is around 17 BS3+ Lascannons.

Before, hitting on a 3+ and glancing/penning on a 5+, you needed literally a SINGLE MORE Lascannon to kill it via HP damage. Not accounting for any penetrating hits.

The marine buffs make vehicles less viable. The entire line going to 2 wounds and yet more 3w units will see a big increase in multi damage weapons being brought, which is bad for tanks surviving.

Trying to kill the new marines with 'small arms' is not a viable prospect.

 Ordana wrote:


Trying to kill the new marines with 'small arms' is not a viable prospect.

What's important is that 16% of 16% of 67% of the time, you could blow them up with one shot, so they weren't all that durable!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Astartes Chainsword: Gets +1A just for existing.
Scything Talons: Need 4 of the fething things to get the same result.

The chainsword got +1A because the screwed up and didn't give assault Marines 2A like they did Hormaguants. So they gave the chainsword +1A and the talons reroll 1's. GW really kicked themselves in the junk on the Fight changes in 8e.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Astartes Chainsword: Gets +1A just for existing.
Scything Talons: Need 4 of the fething things to get the same result.

I'd like to see that changed yeah, 'nids should be terrifying in close combat. maybe give em an extra attack for every 2 scything talons they have or something

The problem isn't the units. The problem is the 8e changes to fight.

Marines should be elite, the old statline of one attack and one wound was laughable compared to how they are in the lore. That said, they should be priced accordingly. If one army is going to be overpowered the worst one for it to be is space marines.