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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Xenos are told to play in the kiddie pool for 2 years until their codex comes out that may make them playable.

Two years is it? I thought the new Necron book was coming out in two months.

For all we know, the very next book after the Marine/Necron 'Dexes could be Eldar, or Tau, or Tyranids, or Chaos Daemons.

Acting like it's just the Marines that will get everything whilst everyone else will languish for years is silly.

With 4 supplements and this upcoming codex marines will almost be done for the edition (or until a new wave of models) - the only exception is GK.

They might get two codices again though

At least this time they don't need to fill half their campaign books with the same datasheets in different colors.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
I would like to change my answer from indifferent to seething hatred. Mostly because my Rubrics will to go from 18 points to probably 25 points. Which means 2 10 man squads of Rubrics and 1 10 man SOT will cost 1000 points.

Seething hatred? Really?

In any case it will probably more like 22. Death Guard on the other hand...they'll be 25+.

The issue is that Rubrics were already weak to D2 and took a lot of heat from those weapons as a result. Being D2 doesn't get them much unless I face a lot of D1 - then they're beast mode. It wouldn't hurt to see the All is Dust rule lose its restriction.

Yet another reason that rushing updates out is a bad idea.

Difference between CSM and Intercessor is 3 ppm. I'm expecting GW to hold true to this ratio on the wounds. Anything more than that would be seriously disappointing.

But I wouldn't be seething with hatred.

A CSM Assault Drill with 2 5x Plasma Chosen squads supporting 3 deep-striking Obliterators will wreck a lot of armies, even if the Chosen were 30ppm. Opponent would need to chew through a lot of wounds to avoid getting double blasted.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The people that play them have Rose tinted glasses and don't acknowledge those editions are jut as broken and continue to live on in denial. Hell there's people that still actively play Rogue Trader which already pokes a hole in that argument alone. That was NOT a good game.

I don't want to burst your bubble but

A: People can like different things than you
And
B: You're not an authority on "good design".

Then by all means get all the Rogue Trader players to help defend their game system as though it were good, I insist.

I'm under no such obligation.

Better yet: Define "good".

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Seething hatred? Really?

In any case it will probably more like 22. Death Guard on the other hand...they'll be 25+.

The issue is that Rubrics were already weak to D2 and took a lot of heat from those weapons as a result. Being D2 doesn't get them much unless I face a lot of D1 - then they're beast mode. It wouldn't hurt to see the All is Dust rule lose its restriction.

Yet another reason that rushing updates out is a bad idea.

25+ for a PM, when they are 18 now? I think not, surely not even GW would value one additional wounds at 7+ points for an infantry model.
As for the change I like it, I still think 2 wounds base infantry is busted but at least for my PM it makes sense, they will finally be as though as they should be. I am however furious that this will be rolled out per codex rather than all at once. It makes no sense, and truthfully kills my will to play this edition until everyone has had their appropriate update.

The second wound is worth way more on a model with a 5+++, so if GW has any brains it'll have to be more than the 3 point increase for tacticals; 4 at the bare minimum, but more likely 5, possibly even 6.

 Castozor wrote:

25+ for a PM, when they are 18 now? I think not, surely not even GW would value one additional wounds at 7+ points for an infantry model.
As for the change I like it, I still think 2 wounds base infantry is busted but at least for my PM it makes sense, they will finally be as though as they should be. I am however furious that this will be rolled out per codex rather than all at once. It makes no sense, and truthfully kills my will to play this edition until everyone has had their appropriate update.

PMs aren't so straightforward. It isnt just an extra T4 wound...

It's an extra T5 5+++ wound with DR bonuses available. D2 weapons are useful on them now. This means D3 weapons will be needed to crack them reliably. And since neither is practical it goes to strong D1 weapons, which is counter productive.

Even a 3 damage weapon will only kill a PM 75% of failed saves, with a 2 damage weapon killing them less than half the time. Add on rerolling 1s and maybe even 1s and 2s and the probabilities drop even lower. They're going to need quite a huge points hike to not be brokenly resilient.

Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?

Well, except that a unit of 10 can delete a knight with mortal wound grenades from 12" away.

Rihgu wrote:
Why would a model pay points for the privilege to pay points to get a weapon?

I don't know, ask DE Trueborn.

 vipoid wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
Why would a model pay points for the privilege to pay points to get a weapon?

I don't know, ask DE Trueborn.

What Trueborn? I don't see any Trueborn anywhere!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?

Yea, but when you gotta get them off an objective they win by doing nothing.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?

Yea, but when you gotta get them off an objective they win by doing nothing.

They were already like that before the additional wound but nobody was taking them anyway. I think you'll be okay.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?

Not when you equip them properly. You could go full specialist close combat squad with them, 10 man in Rhino with 2 mace of contagions and 8 bubotic axes. That will mess up any elite infantry squad. Or if you wanna charge the big stuff, add powerfist, 2 meltaguns, and 2 great plage cleavers. The bonus attack from the special rules from PA really improved them alot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?

Yea, but when you gotta get them off an objective they win by doing nothing.

They were already like that before the additional wound but nobody was taking them anyway. I think you'll be okay.

I'm not complaining. I'm just saying why I think they would be naturally higher priced.

i actually feel that an army that I spent hundreds of dollars on, countless hours and a lot of love is now relevant again.

Happy indeed.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?

Not when you equip them properly. You could go full specialist close combat squad with them, 10 man in Rhino with 2 mace of contagions and 8 bubotic axes. That will mess up any elite infantry squad. Or if you wanna charge the big stuff, add powerfist, 2 meltaguns, and 2 great plage cleavers. The bonus attack from the special rules from PA really improved them alot.

LOL it really doesn't. They're a 5" unit without movement capabilities/shenanigans and then 2 attacks with zero shooting equipped like that.

Nobody will take the unit seriously even with the wound bonus. They'll charge, not kill whatever it is, and then sit pitifully.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
With 4 supplements and this upcoming codex marines will almost be done for the edition (or until a new wave of models) - the only exception is GK.

The question then is, will the new supplements have Crusade content, leaving Imperial Fists/Salamanders/White Scars/Raven Guard/Ultramarines/Iron Hands without their own Chapter-specific Crusade stuff. That'd suck.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
With 4 supplements and this upcoming codex marines will almost be done for the edition (or until a new wave of models) - the only exception is GK.

The question then is, will the new supplements have Crusade content, leaving Imperial Fists/Salamanders/White Scars/Raven Guard/Ultramarines/Iron Hands without their own Chapter-specific Crusade stuff. That'd suck.

hard to say, that said most of the current supplement chapters are pretty similer in structure so their crusade stuff could easily be managed in the main book, while the supplement would have special rules like "ohh that grey hunter squad turned into wulfen. that blood angel squad was taken by the rage and became death company etc"

there's no real need for any of that in say "codex supplement raven guard" a core crusade rule allowing say... a squad to become veterns is all that would be needed.

yukishiro1 wrote:Well, except that a unit of 10 can delete a knight with mortal wound grenades from 12" away.

Plague genades require a character to be nearby to not be inferior to just shooting your bolter. You don't cost units according to what buffs could be nearby maybe.

Crusaderobr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they have garbage offensive capability so who cares?

Not when you equip them properly. You could go full specialist close combat squad with them, 10 man in Rhino with 2 mace of contagions and 8 bubotic axes. That will mess up any elite infantry squad. Or if you wanna charge the big stuff, add powerfist, 2 meltaguns, and 2 great plage cleavers. The bonus attack from the special rules from PA really improved them alot.

The extra attack is for plague knives only and -1 to hit weapons are terrible on models with just two attacks. Bubotic axes basically turn plague marines into an unbuffed possessed with less movement and no 5++, not exactly something people have been running wild with. Not to mention that all those melee weapons would add 60-100 points to the unit's cost.
And most importantly, they could already do all that since the beginning, and yet no one is using plague marines that way. If they do, it's always blight launchers, bolters and maybe a plasmagun.

Well, I think its not a bad idea for some reasons.
Tacticals will sell and as in AoS heavily armoured units have 2W anyway.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I think its not a bad idea for some reasons.
Tacticals will sell and as in AoS heavily armoured units have 2W anyway.

over all 40k has done a poor job at diffrentiating of late between heavy and light infantry, so this seems to be the direction they're taking.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Castozor wrote:

25+ for a PM, when they are 18 now? I think not, surely not even GW would value one additional wounds at 7+ points for an infantry model.
As for the change I like it, I still think 2 wounds base infantry is busted but at least for my PM it makes sense, they will finally be as though as they should be. I am however furious that this will be rolled out per codex rather than all at once. It makes no sense, and truthfully kills my will to play this edition until everyone has had their appropriate update.

PMs aren't so straightforward. It isnt just an extra T4 wound...

It's an extra T5 5+++ wound with DR bonuses available. D2 weapons are useful on them now. This means D3 weapons will be needed to crack them reliably. And since neither is practical it goes to strong D1 weapons, which is counter productive.

I kind of agree with Castozor here. The most reliable way to kill plague marines right now are weapons with 6 or more strength, decent ROF and some AP-1 or -2 and I doubt this will change much.
While the wound should be more expensive than the one on the tactical marine, it should be no more than 23. It would also be expensive enough to keep a mega-blob of 20 plague marines with all the buffs from becoming a problem instead of a fun gimmick.

I remember when it was suggested like a bazillion times here to give two wounds to all marines... And now it's done.

So happy to have everyone have the opposite opinion than before.

CapRichard wrote:
I remember when it was suggested like a bazillion times here to give two wounds to all marines... And now it's done.

So happy to have everyone have the opposite opinion than before.

I don't think the issue is with Marines getting 2 wounds apiece. The issue is with Marines getting even more buffs at the start of the new edition, after already being laden with buffs through the previous edition, whilst every other army is stuck waiting for their codices, and most clearly won't be getting anything close to even treatment even then.

 vipoid wrote:

CapRichard wrote:
I remember when it was suggested like a bazillion times here to give two wounds to all marines... And now it's done.

So happy to have everyone have the opposite opinion than before.

I don't think the issue is with Marines getting 2 wounds apiece. The issue is with Marines getting even more buffs at the start of the new edition, after already being laden with buffs through the previous edition, whilst every other army is stuck waiting for their codices, and most clearly won't be getting anything close to even treatment even then.

Exactly this. 8th was still suffering from marine fatigue when all went into lockdown, and the state of the game as people start to emerge? Increased buffs for that same faction, instead of addressing other armies to allow them to catch up and compete.

Also, I'm not happy that it sometimes becomes more point effective to shoot at vehicles with small arms than at Marines. That's really wierd. Like shooting at a Predator returns a better value when engaging with a bolter. That feels very wrong.

CapRichard wrote:
I remember when it was suggested like a bazillion times here to give two wounds to all marines... And now it's done.

So happy to have everyone have the opposite opinion than before.

I'm going to assume those sugguestions where before Marine 2.0 dex.
People are pissed because Marines were hugely buffed and completely dominant after their new dex, and now they are getting more buffs.

As I said previously, if GW wants to rebalance elite units and some weapons but started with Xenos armies instead of Marines who are already alone at the top there would be a LOT less pushback against this.

CapRichard wrote:
I remember when it was suggested like a bazillion times here to give two wounds to all marines... And now it's done.

So happy to have everyone have the opposite opinion than before.

Hardly anyone has the opposite opinion. Marines having 2 wounds is fine.

Marines having the most overbuffed codex in existence in 8th, and then being the only codex released in 9th, which ALSO contains a large number of significant further buffs, while every other army has to wait at least a year (some more like 3 years) before they even find out if they will be playable in 9th or not - this is what people are objecting to.

Space marine codex should have been done last. Its already more than fine now. Or all armies get a buff via chapter approved or something so the balance is instant and not dragged out.