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WarCom article to read some other changes for yourself.

Simple question, interested to see what the data from Dakka looks like.

It's a little weird. I had kind of accepted that Primaris were going to phase out classic marines, but apparently they were just a beta test?

It mentions fully fledged astartes, which scouts aren't, so maybe not all marines?

 LunarSol wrote:
It's a little weird. I had kind of accepted that Primaris were going to phase out classic marines, but apparently they were just a beta test?

Tbh I'm actually pretty happy about it. Given that not too long ago there was a thread here about people still using their firstborn and not touching Primaris, I think making them more viable and CSM too isn't bad for the game or health of the playerbase.

Old era C/SM players shouldn't feel so cheated by Primaris now that they're for all intents and purposes on equal footing.

Edit: Yeah it sounds like Scouts will still be 1W, I used ALL so that it covers CSM as well.

 Mixzremixzd wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
It's a little weird. I had kind of accepted that Primaris were going to phase out classic marines, but apparently they were just a beta test?

Tbh I'm actually pretty happy about it. Given that not too long ago there was a thread here about people still using their firstborn and not touching Primaris, I think making them more viable and CSM too isn't bad for the game or health of the playerbase.

Old era C/SM players shouldn't feel so cheated by Primaris now that they're fall all intents and purposes on equal footing.

Edit: Yeah it sounds like Scouts will still be 1W, I used ALL so that it covers CSM as well.

That's fair, tbh 2 wound plague marines at lower 20's points is... scary.

Cautiously happy about it depending on the pts changes.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Cautiously happy about it depending on the pts changes.

15 -> 18 Points

Largely depends on points.

The only frustration is weapons upgrades are being doled out slowly. Means that the xenos waiting for theirs are gonna get their teeth kicked in.

I hope their release schedule is aggressive.

I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.

nekooni wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Cautiously happy about it depending on the pts changes.

15 -> 18 Points

Thats seems ok, I think, but there are lot of other Marine units we don't know the pts cost for.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.

why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

Mostly for me, between gaming venues being closed, the release of a new edition to learn, the hamfisted points "rebalancing" for 9E, the changes to a slew of weapons, and all the Marine changes, it means 40k is essentially "on hold" for me for the foreseeable future until there's some sort of marginally stable metagame and rebalancing for a significant number of non-SM factions comes into play, as right now it feels like 9E is essentially still in an early pre-release state, a game that was released before it really knew what it wanted to be and is still undergoing primary development.

 LunarSol wrote:
It's a little weird. I had kind of accepted that Primaris were going to phase out classic marines, but apparently they were just a beta test?

The nice thing is people who want to mod Intercessors into First Born get the best of both worlds. Its a pretty great move.

Wait and see. Too many unknowns.


I do think they should have scrapped all the books and gone with a Ravening Hordes 'get-you-by' update if they wanted to do sweeping changes like this.
Messing with unit and weapon stats makes this feel like a bigger update than 7th to 8th. They've created a muddle of unnecessary uncertainty and are now sprinting to keep up, and have now created a situation where they have to speed churn the codexes for everybody out again, because no one is going to want to wait 2-4 years for their turn to have real weapons and unit upgrades.

Mixed tbh.

In principle - sure.

In practice though, this feels like:
*WELCOME TO 9TH!*
Shouldn't this have been in an index, or a rulebook, or something?
*NO! FULL SPEED AHEAD MARINE CODEX IS THE NEW RULEBOOK GO GO GO!*

The issue isn't really marines.

I am concerned about a major nerf to D1 weapons, that will now be even worse than they were in a Primaris meta.
I'm also concerned with *expensive* 1 wound models (mainly xenos) being really bad comparably.
I am concerned that in turn the meta will become the equivalent of Starcannon spam for everyone - where D2 is the new AP3. Which potentially inflicts a soft nerf on vehicles/monsters.
Speaking of, I am worried that 2 shot multimeltas that get +2 damage in 12" are ludicrous and make every other comparable anti-tank weapon a joke.

I'm looking at that supposedly leaked datasheet on the Heavy Lokhust and crying at *just how bad* it is compared with the buggy, pre any special rules.

I'm looking at that supposedly leaked datasheet on the Heavy Lokhust and crying at *just how bad* it is compared with the buggy, pre any special rules.

Ignore the buggy.
The Gladius is coming. The AT version has twin lastalons and TWO multimeltas, and is using the Impulsor as the base chassis. (Much like the rhino is the base for the predator/vindicator)

Besides the firestrike turret makes the lokhust seem sad.

Tyel wrote:
Mixed tbh.

In principle - sure.

In practice though, this feels like:
*WELCOME TO 9TH!*
Shouldn't this have been in an index, or a rulebook, or something?
*NO! FULL SPEED AHEAD MARINE CODEX IS THE NEW RULEBOOK GO GO GO!*

The issue isn't really marines.

I am concerned about a major nerf to D1 weapons, that will now be even worse than they were in a Primaris meta.
I'm also concerned with *expensive* 1 wound models (mainly xenos) being really bad comparably.
I am concerned that in turn the meta will become the equivalent of Starcannon spam for everyone - where D2 is the new AP3. Which potentially inflicts a soft nerf on vehicles/monsters.
Speaking of, I am worried that 2 shot multimeltas that get +2 damage in 12" are ludicrous and make every other comparable anti-tank weapon a joke.

I'm looking at that supposedly leaked datasheet on the Heavy Lokhust and crying at *just how bad* it is compared with the buggy, pre any special rules.

Marines becoming 2W is actually kind of a buff to elite 1W xenos units - people will bring more 2D weapons to deal with them, which are in turn worse than 1D weapons vs your 1W Xenos models. That's assuming they get the points right for the new Marine codex.

And when you redesign a Faction, why wouldn't you use the Codex for that? Unit datasheets have no place in the BRB.

It isn't just wounds, it's also weapons. In other words, classic stat inflation. And it's not happening all at once, some factions will have to wait many months or years to be inflated to the same level as Space Marines will get in October.

Stat inflation is bad for the game period, but inflating stats book by book rather than all at the same time is even worse. It's like GW found the worst possible thing they could do for game balance and decided to do it.

The've created two versions of 9th, the version played by factions with stat inflation from their codexes (or knock-on stat inflation form the same weapon being inflated in somebody else's codex), and those without it.

I hate the idea but only because they are doin it staggered. Buffing core stats will make power creep so much more eggagerated. If you are going to play with core stats, amend them all at the same time.

Tyel wrote:
Speaking of, I am worried that 2 shot multimeltas that get +2 damage in 12" are ludicrous and make every other comparable anti-tank weapon a joke.

Yeah... but that's what meltas are supposed to do. It's not supposed to have any competition when it does get in melta range.

This is like saying "I'm worried now that lascannons cost only 15 pts which have 48" range with S9 AP-3 will make every other comparable anti-tank weapon a joke."

nekooni wrote:

Marines becoming 2W is actually kind of a buff to elite 1W xenos units - people will bring more 2D weapons to deal with them, which are in turn worse than 1D weapons vs your 1W Xenos models. That's assuming they get the points right for the new Marine codex.

That really depends on the weapon. A lot of weapons (especially high shot weapons) deal with both without issue.

And when you redesign a Faction, why wouldn't you use the Codex for that? Unit datasheets have no place in the BRB.

Ravening hordes. Drip feeding a mass update is pretty terrible. 'You'll get your upgrades... later. No we won't tell you when.' is an approach people will innately complain about.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
It's a little weird. I had kind of accepted that Primaris were going to phase out classic marines, but apparently they were just a beta test?

The nice thing is people who want to mod Intercessors into First Born get the best of both worlds. Its a pretty great move.

I'm not upset about it at all, its just not the way I thought the winds were blowing. More surprised than anything.

nekooni wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.

why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4? Against most small arms, and therefore most infantry firefights, it's 2W by a mile.

When Necrons were first introduced, Warriors had T4 3+, and Immortals had T5 3+, this is when most Space Marines were T4, 1W, 3+. Warriors started out being as tough as a Space Marine, with resurrection capability on top of it. Immortals were straight up tougher.

The 5th edition codex nerfed the Warrior and Immortal in comparison to the Space Marine. Warriors went to 4+ and Immortals went to T4. Immortals going to T5 is them merely going BACK to what they originally were. Space Marines going to 2W is unprecedented.

This is just like the long, slow erosion of the Shuriken Catapult for Eldar. It starts of being great, and then through the years it just degrades and the continuous pumping of Space Marines (my primary faction, btw) surpasses it for the effing SM wankery of the designers/novels/whatever.

I'm really, really tired of iconic aspects of other races being squelched by the obsession with spheesh maahreens.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It isn't just wounds, it's also weapons. In other words, classic stat inflation. And it's not happening all at once, some factions will have to wait many months or years to be inflated to the same level as Space Marines will get in October.

Stat inflation is bad for the game period, but inflating stats book by book rather than all at the same time is even worse. It's like GW found the worst possible thing they could do for game balance and decided to do it.

I agree for the most part but I wanted to focus the topic a little bit rather than tackle the entire beast. 2 wound firstborn and CSM have been a hot topic since Primaris were introduced, I mean how many "rumours" of cult troops going to 2Ws have we seen crop up every other month since 8th?

Dam1 weapons so stuff like ig troopers, ork　boyz etc will　be even less relevant for damage output so will be　relegated to slt on objective and sleep. D2 is what d1 used to be.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It isn't just wounds, it's also weapons. In other words, classic stat inflation. And it's not happening all at once, some factions will have to wait many months or years to be inflated to the same level as Space Marines will get in October.

Stat inflation is bad for the game period, but inflating stats book by book rather than all at the same time is even worse. It's like GW found the worst possible thing they could do for game balance and decided to do it.

a) We do not know if those weapons are more expensive, and by how much. Maybe someone will now come in shouting "but point changes are only ever done in Chapter Approved so Multimelta will remain at 20/25!", but that's still just plain stupid.
b) It's not stat inflation if what you're doing is increasing stats while also increasing cost. It's turning an army into a more elite version of it, by reducing model count but increasing power per model.
c) Stat inflation by itself isn't bad for the game at all. If we'd blow up all stats by adding a 0 everywhere that'd be straight up inflation, and it would not change a thing on its own. But it would allow GW to more precisely fine tune rules. It's not like they could handle that, though.

Also, because the wounds are being inflated only on old marines, but the weapons are being inflated for everyone, the net result is greater lethality in the game, not less. So New 9th will be even more lethal than Launch 9th which was even more lethal than 8th which was...you get the picture.

I don't think what the game needed was more stat inflation, more engineered imbalance between factions, and greater lethality.

nekooni wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.

why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

They should have never taken away the Immortal's T5 to start!
Warriors should be back at 3+!

 Insectum7 wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.

why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

What's better, 1W T5 or 2W T4? Against most small arms, and therefore most infantry firefights, it's 2W by a mile.

Didn't claim it would be better or equivalent, just that they DID get something to make them tougher (literally) and that it's a good thing that not every troop choice now gets promoted to 2W T4 or whatever, but that units get tougher in different ways.

 Blndmage wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I am not happy about it. Especially not happy about Marines going to 2W and Necron Warriors and Immortals apparently staying at 1W.

I think that is gak.

why, though? Immortals get +1 T in exchange, that's also a decent buff and I think it's fine to have units NOT be copies of each other ...

They should have never taken away the Im ortaks T5 to start!
Warriors should be back at 3+!

One-effing-hundred percent.