So the tomb king (is it?) and the void dragon shard are both being released for necrons and these are big, and I assume, powerful models/characters. My understanding is that they will rival or be better than Robby guilliman.


So do you think all armies are getting a big dude for their army? I think this is what people are calling hero hammer? I suppose great unclean one and keeper of secrets etc have always existed for demons.

Can RG be taken for any SM army??

Who would each army have, some armies have primarchs but I doubt Horus would come back for BL.

Also as these models are so powerful I assume they have a big points cost so is it only worth taking them on a 2500+ point game?

Hero Hammer actually referred to a previous edition where all the non characters were chaff to chew through with your character. You basically threw a character into a full squad or more at a time and watched them ginsu.

Bobby G CAN be taken by any IMPERIUM army but only really helps Ultramarines.

To answer your question yes, I believe every faction (or almost every) is going to get a Fortification, and a Supreme Commander of some kind (i.e. LOW or Supreme Commander keyword model).

Black Legion/ CSM has Abaddon, he's the size of Guilliman and successor of Horus. Orks have Ghazgkull. Eldar need a new Avatar since at least 10 years. Dark Eldar should get Vect. Half the range of Tyranids are big monsters. Tau have their big suits, I guess they could release Farsight in one. Admech has Cawl, though Guilliman can really be the Big hero of any Imperium faction, at least fluffwize.

"Supreme Commander" is a keyword that we know is coming but have not seen in play yet.

"Hero Hammer" usually refers all the way back to 2nd edition, when characters were what made or broke your army and once they made it into combat, squads were typically little more than fodder for super-choppy characters to mince up in short order. We're shifting a little back towards that, I reckon, but nowhere near as much as it was back then.

I think it's fair to say most if not all factions are going to get a big-ger something, even if they're not all going to be Silent King or C'tan sized. Black Legion 99% won't get Horus, but they managed to make Abaddon considerably bigger than even the Terminator Lord model. Others are getting sized up via imaginative base setups that elevate them, for instance Mephiston standing on his rock, or Celestine's floaty paper rolls.

mrFickle wrote:
Can RG be taken for any SM army??

Technically, yes, thanks to how the keywords work - but you won't get Ultramarine-specific bonuses if the rest of the army isn't Ultramarines too. That goes for any cross-Chapter special character shenanigans. Worth noting that one of his special rules boosts "Imperium" units, but another boosts only "Ultramarines" specifically.

Abbadon for Black Legion Chaos Space Marines.
The Silent King for Necrons.
Mortarion for Death Guard.
Magnus for Thousand Sons.
Guilliman for Ultramarines Space Marines.
Ghazghkull for Orks.
Cawl for AdMech.

Did I miss any? Their numbers are definitely growing.

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Supreme Commander" is a keyword that we know is coming but have not seen in play yet.

Szarekh has the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Supreme Commander" is a keyword that we know is coming but have not seen in play yet.

Szarekh has the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword.

So he's our first one? Awesome!

If i had to guess the only factions that can't/won't get one that is soley for them is Adeptus Custodes, Grey Knights and Sisters. The only thing Custodes could get that would make sense would be Big E himself as that will never happen unless its some Avatar of big E then idk what they could do as they only really have like 6 named characters? Grey Knights ALREADY have their big guy and he's just a Hero (Kaldor Draigo) they could get 1 other dude but he's in no way a "Supreme Commander". And Sisters are essentially just women in armor , as they already have Celestine (an little immortal being thats died 100 times already) then i dont see what else.

For the factions you just mentioned + Imperial Guard I can see an Inquisitor or Warmaster being released as a Supreme Commander.

The character would be less on a combat side, even if he/she would have some very exotic and powerful wargear. The real power would come from obscene buffs and shenanigans.

I'm thinking Inquisitor Coteaz 5th edition but dialed up to 11.

Bit of an odd shout but I could see a resculpted huron being an alternative supreme commander for csm, even if he isn't "big guy" status stat wise

Rahdok wrote:
Grey Knights ALREADY have their big guy and he's just a Hero (Kaldor Draigo)...

Who could gain the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword once their codex is updated.

Commander Shadowsun is Supreme Commander for Tau and has rules to back it up.

I struggle with abandon being equal to a primarch without some more chaos juice. Is Ghaz now on a par with RG?

I thought the supreme commander key word was being introduced with others so you could escalate a home brew chapters captain to the same level as azreal for the dark angels, as an example.

Or do you think they won’t necessarily have a model ineacha rly that can rival the likes of RG and tomb king

Are you holding out for a hero, mrFickle?

 Dysartes wrote:
Are you holding out for a hero, mrFickle?

Just someone who can do this presentation for me

I expect we'll see some regular space marines gain the supreme commander keyword, especially named characters of note.

For example, I expect Commander Dante will get it in the new Blood Angels supplement, as will Master Azrael in the new Dark Angels supplement and Logan Grimnar in the Space Wolves supplement.

Other named characters might get it, such as Eldrad Ulthran from the Eldar codex. Maybe the Avatar of Khaine as well? Who knows.

I'll be curious to see what does get it as the new books release.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

I wouldn't bet on that, since Shrike hasn't gotten it and I do not believe Marneus Calgar has either.

Eldrad and the Avatar also aren't legendary commanders of note.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Supreme Commander" is a keyword that we know is coming but have not seen in play yet.

Szarekh has the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword.

So he's our first one? Awesome!

Only one ever. Having a second supreme commander available would be a contradiction in terms.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Supreme Commander" is a keyword that we know is coming but have not seen in play yet.

Szarekh has the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword.

So he's our first one? Awesome!

Only one ever. Having a second supreme commander available would be a contradiction in terms.

Not really?

Szarekh is our first example of the Supreme Commander keyword. We can pretty well theorize that more will be coming for other factions, where it can apply.

Rahdok wrote:
And Sisters are essentially just women in armor , as they already have Celestine (an little immortal being thats died 100 times already) then i dont see what else.

You appear to be forgetting both the Supreme Procession of Buffy Funeral Goodness, and the Flying Pulpit of Extreme Flamy Heretic Burning.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I wouldn't bet on that, since Shrike hasn't gotten it and I do not believe Marneus Calgar has either.

Eldrad and the Avatar also aren't legendary commanders of note.

Marneus Calgar won't because there's Guilliman in the same list, I don't expect each faction (Ultramarines in this instance) will have more than one, possibly two total Supreme Commanders. Shrike isn't a supreme commander because he hasn't been around long enough, lore wise I mean, to justify the title.

Dante, Logan Grimnar and Azrael have all been leading their chapters long enough, especially Dante, and have sufficient tactical acumen to justify having the title I think. Of course that's just my own speculation based on my opinion, so I'm happy to say I could be very wrong about this.

Eldrad is one of the longest running characters in the Eldar lore. I'm not saying he'll get it, but I believe he's probably a candidate. The avatar is more of a "eh, maybe?" guess. It's literally the physical avatar of one of the eldar gods and I would think that it would certainly be capable of being named a supreme commander. Again happy to say I'm wrong on it too and we'll all see when the time comes.

Just looking at current models/options that are in my opinion, for lack of a better term, front runners for the title for at least a few factions.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Ghaz wrote:

Rahdok wrote:
Grey Knights ALREADY have their big guy and he's just a Hero (Kaldor Draigo)...

Who could gain the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword once their codex is updated.

Draigo in Dreadknight kit. Lord of War, SUPREME COMMANDER, even bigger and fancier than the normal one!

I think the supreme commander can only be given to one character in a custom chapter, and one master apothecary and one master librarian and one master chaplain.

The supreme commander keyword aside I was more wondering if each army is going to get a unit that is as powerful as RG or the new necrons. Will that parallel exist across all armies

mrFickle wrote:
I think the supreme commander can only be given to one character in a custom chapter, and one master apothecary and one master librarian and one master chaplain.

Huh? Are you referring to "Chapter Master" here? No one can "be given" the supreme commander keyword currently - Right now only the Silent King has the keyword.

The supreme commander keyword aside I was more wondering if each army is going to get a unit that is as powerful as RG or the new necrons. Will that parallel exist across all armies

Maybe? There's plenty of big faction-leader type models out there and GW certainly really seems to be high on making "Centerpiece Models" these days. But like many things they'll be distracted by the next next big thing before it proliferates to all armies.

So SUPREME COMMANDER as a keyword and the Supreme Command detachment aren't something I expect to see a ton of. There's two main use cases as I see it:
Allowing you to take a fancy Lord-of-War character without costing additional detachment CP (G-man, Silent King, Magnus/Morty)
Allowing a sub-faction that has no/few special characters of its own to take one of the over-all faction's bigger characters. So a more universal version of how you can take Shadowsun in a Borkan-sept army right now. Models like Cawl, Gaz, and the aforementioned Shadowsun are the kinds of things I'd expect it on.

I would not expect the keyword to show up on random Marine named characters like Dante or Kaldor. It wouldn't really do that much for them or their armies.

rbstr wrote:
I would not expect the keyword to show up on random Marine named characters like Dante or Kaldor. It wouldn't really do that much for them or their armies.

As the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights the fluff fits for him to have the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword, regardless of whether he would gain any use of the keyword.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I wouldn't bet on that, since Shrike hasn't gotten it and I do not believe Marneus Calgar has either.

Eldrad and the Avatar also aren't legendary commanders of note.

Marneus Calgar won't because there's Guilliman in the same list, I don't expect each faction (Ultramarines in this instance) will have more than one, possibly two total Supreme Commanders. Shrike isn't a supreme commander because he hasn't been around long enough, lore wise I mean, to justify the title.

Shrike's been around plenty long enough, in terms of both lore and being a profile(4th edition Codex is when he got added).

And again, Supreme Commander is a new keyword not just a Detachment type. It's for HQs or Lords of War that have the Primarch(Guilliman only thus far), Daemon Primarch(Magnus and Mortarion), or Supreme Commander(Szarekh) keywords.
There's no real issue with Calgar potentially being able to get the Supreme Commander keyword. It's not like you can double-dip anyways with it. It's a separate Detachment that allows for you to take one model and make it your warlord to get refunded Command Points.
Additionally, Eldrad isn't a commander. He's a Seer. Prince Yriel, Autarchs, or any of the Phoenix Lords would be the 'best fit' Supreme Commanders.

The 'real' reason we likely haven't seen Shrike or Calgar get it is because they don't want to mess around with those supplements just yet.

Supreme Commander?

Sounds like a job for Creed.

If it's not just Trazyn with a handpuppet, I will be sad.

 Ghaz wrote:

Rahdok wrote:
Grey Knights ALREADY have their big guy and he's just a Hero (Kaldor Draigo)...

Who could gain the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword once their codex is updated.

completely unnesscary. the supreme commander keyword is really only needed for 2 thigns, the first is a unit that is a LOW the second is someone who can command across faction types

Given he is effectively Guilliman's 2IC (& is the regent of the entire Imperium Nihilus), Dante should *definitely* get the Supreme Commander keyword.

 Stormonu wrote:
Supreme Commander?

Sounds like a job for Creed.

Very true....but he's also kind of dead (or is he?). As much as I love the badassery of Creed I would love to see a new Warmaster type guard commander rise up that is new. Maybe Fleetmaster Cassandra VanLeskus since she singlehandedly got Fleet Tertius off the ground through sheer force of will and had it ready to stop a chaos invasion of the Sol System before the other fleets of the indomitus crusade had a chance to even get started (although she is a fleet officer....). Or you could have Warmaster Macaroth or any other notable Generals like Drusus or Isaia Bendikt. Theres got to be a ton of great choices out there who could really get a cool start. Ideally I would love to see some sort of special command tank with the commander standing and pointing forward with their power sword.

Additionally, this would be an amazing opportunity for them to make a new "primary" guard regiment to replace the dwindling Cadians.

mrFickle wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Are you holding out for a hero, mrFickle?

Just someone who can do this presentation for me

I am.

But he's gotta be strong
And he's gotta be fast
And he's gotta be larger than life.

(That's right, when someone misses an 80's pop culture reference, you can always count on me to pick it up)

Custodes could get Valdor back.

He was actually just about equal to a primarch in combat power. he just didnt have as much latent psychic potential or as good a memory as the actual primarchs. Might have been a small bit less durable too.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Stormonu wrote:
Supreme Commander?

Sounds like a job for Creed.

Very true....but he's also kind of dead (or is he?). As much as I love the badassery of Creed I would love to see a new Warmaster type guard commander rise up that is new. Maybe Fleetmaster Cassandra VanLeskus since she singlehandedly got Fleet Tertius off the ground through sheer force of will and had it ready to stop a chaos invasion of the Sol System before the other fleets of the indomitus crusade had a chance to even get started (although she is a fleet officer....). Or you could have Warmaster Macaroth or any other notable Generals like Drusus or Isaia Bendikt. Theres got to be a ton of great choices out there who could really get a cool start. Ideally I would love to see some sort of special command tank with the commander standing and pointing forward with their power sword.

Additionally, this would be an amazing opportunity for them to make a new "primary" guard regiment to replace the dwindling Cadians.

The fluff has always had a large number of non-Cadian units using Cadian gear.

 Ghaz wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Stormonu wrote:
Supreme Commander?

Sounds like a job for Creed.

Very true....but he's also kind of dead (or is he?). As much as I love the badassery of Creed I would love to see a new Warmaster type guard commander rise up that is new. Maybe Fleetmaster Cassandra VanLeskus since she singlehandedly got Fleet Tertius off the ground through sheer force of will and had it ready to stop a chaos invasion of the Sol System before the other fleets of the indomitus crusade had a chance to even get started (although she is a fleet officer....). Or you could have Warmaster Macaroth or any other notable Generals like Drusus or Isaia Bendikt. Theres got to be a ton of great choices out there who could really get a cool start. Ideally I would love to see some sort of special command tank with the commander standing and pointing forward with their power sword.

Additionally, this would be an amazing opportunity for them to make a new "primary" guard regiment to replace the dwindling Cadians.

The fluff has always had a large number of non-Cadian units using Cadian gear.

bUt I dOn'T LiKe CaDiAnS!!1!!

Macaroth's dead anyways. Been dead for a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.

The biggest and best thing we can hope for right now is that Guilliman gets a bee in his bonnet and reorganizes the Imperial Army to be a thing. Specialist Regiments like Catachans, Tallarn, etc could be represented better that way as actual dedicated unit types specializing in terrain/cover setups.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Stormonu wrote:
Supreme Commander?

Sounds like a job for Creed.

Very true....but he's also kind of dead (or is he?). As much as I love the badassery of Creed I would love to see a new Warmaster type guard commander rise up that is new. Maybe Fleetmaster Cassandra VanLeskus since she singlehandedly got Fleet Tertius off the ground through sheer force of will and had it ready to stop a chaos invasion of the Sol System before the other fleets of the indomitus crusade had a chance to even get started (although she is a fleet officer....). Or you could have Warmaster Macaroth or any other notable Generals like Drusus or Isaia Bendikt. Theres got to be a ton of great choices out there who could really get a cool start. Ideally I would love to see some sort of special command tank with the commander standing and pointing forward with their power sword.

Additionally, this would be an amazing opportunity for them to make a new "primary" guard regiment to replace the dwindling Cadians.

The fluff has always had a large number of non-Cadian units using Cadian gear.

bUt I dOn'T LiKe CaDiAnS!!1!!

Macaroth's dead anyways. Been dead for a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.

The biggest and best thing we can hope for right now is that Guilliman gets a bee in his bonnet and reorganizes the Imperial Army to be a thing. Specialist Regiments like Catachans, Tallarn, etc could be represented better that way as actual dedicated unit types specializing in terrain/cover setups.

reorginizing the guard into the army would be impossiable, they'd have to be able to stand down long eneugh to impliment the changes

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Stormonu wrote:
Supreme Commander?

Sounds like a job for Creed.

Very true....but he's also kind of dead (or is he?). As much as I love the badassery of Creed I would love to see a new Warmaster type guard commander rise up that is new. Maybe Fleetmaster Cassandra VanLeskus since she singlehandedly got Fleet Tertius off the ground through sheer force of will and had it ready to stop a chaos invasion of the Sol System before the other fleets of the indomitus crusade had a chance to even get started (although she is a fleet officer....). Or you could have Warmaster Macaroth or any other notable Generals like Drusus or Isaia Bendikt. Theres got to be a ton of great choices out there who could really get a cool start. Ideally I would love to see some sort of special command tank with the commander standing and pointing forward with their power sword.

Additionally, this would be an amazing opportunity for them to make a new "primary" guard regiment to replace the dwindling Cadians.

The fluff has always had a large number of non-Cadian units using Cadian gear.

bUt I dOn'T LiKe CaDiAnS!!1!!

Macaroth's dead anyways. Been dead for a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.

The biggest and best thing we can hope for right now is that Guilliman gets a bee in his bonnet and reorganizes the Imperial Army to be a thing. Specialist Regiments like Catachans, Tallarn, etc could be represented better that way as actual dedicated unit types specializing in terrain/cover setups.

reorginizing the guard into the army would be impossiable, they'd have to be able to stand down long eneugh to impliment the changes

Or take generations worth of phasing out the old Imperial Guard Regiments and phasing in the new Imperial Army.

Also don't know how you'd leave the Characters from each regiment like Straken, Harker, and Creed.

Arcanis161 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Stormonu wrote:
Supreme Commander?

Sounds like a job for Creed.

Very true....but he's also kind of dead (or is he?). As much as I love the badassery of Creed I would love to see a new Warmaster type guard commander rise up that is new. Maybe Fleetmaster Cassandra VanLeskus since she singlehandedly got Fleet Tertius off the ground through sheer force of will and had it ready to stop a chaos invasion of the Sol System before the other fleets of the indomitus crusade had a chance to even get started (although she is a fleet officer....). Or you could have Warmaster Macaroth or any other notable Generals like Drusus or Isaia Bendikt. Theres got to be a ton of great choices out there who could really get a cool start. Ideally I would love to see some sort of special command tank with the commander standing and pointing forward with their power sword.

Additionally, this would be an amazing opportunity for them to make a new "primary" guard regiment to replace the dwindling Cadians.

The fluff has always had a large number of non-Cadian units using Cadian gear.

bUt I dOn'T LiKe CaDiAnS!!1!!

Macaroth's dead anyways. Been dead for a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.

The biggest and best thing we can hope for right now is that Guilliman gets a bee in his bonnet and reorganizes the Imperial Army to be a thing. Specialist Regiments like Catachans, Tallarn, etc could be represented better that way as actual dedicated unit types specializing in terrain/cover setups.

reorginizing the guard into the army would be impossiable, they'd have to be able to stand down long eneugh to impliment the changes

Or take generations worth of phasing out the old Imperial Guard Regiments and phasing in the new Imperial Army.

Also don't know how you'd leave the Characters from each regiment like Straken, Harker, and Creed.

A lot of those care are pretty old. If I was going to COMPLETELY re-do Guard.. I'd just say "yeah they died" support the rules for a time until eventally moving them to legends and do something new for guard chars.

I'd make guard go back to platoons. 3 10 man units with a platoon commander for 150pts. can have 3 special guns and/or 3 heavy weapons. 3 seargents and the platoon commander can take plasma pistols and/or melee weapons.

None of the 3 squads can be more than 8" from the other 2 squads and casualties can be pulled from any of the squads.

Takes up 1 troop slot. You'd have to take 3 chimera's if you take any though, and they would also have to remain within 8" of each other.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Stormonu wrote:
Supreme Commander?

Sounds like a job for Creed.

Very true....but he's also kind of dead (or is he?). As much as I love the badassery of Creed I would love to see a new Warmaster type guard commander rise up that is new. Maybe Fleetmaster Cassandra VanLeskus since she singlehandedly got Fleet Tertius off the ground through sheer force of will and had it ready to stop a chaos invasion of the Sol System before the other fleets of the indomitus crusade had a chance to even get started (although she is a fleet officer....). Or you could have Warmaster Macaroth or any other notable Generals like Drusus or Isaia Bendikt. Theres got to be a ton of great choices out there who could really get a cool start. Ideally I would love to see some sort of special command tank with the commander standing and pointing forward with their power sword.

Additionally, this would be an amazing opportunity for them to make a new "primary" guard regiment to replace the dwindling Cadians.

The fluff has always had a large number of non-Cadian units using Cadian gear.

bUt I dOn'T LiKe CaDiAnS!!1!!

Macaroth's dead anyways. Been dead for a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.

The biggest and best thing we can hope for right now is that Guilliman gets a bee in his bonnet and reorganizes the Imperial Army to be a thing. Specialist Regiments like Catachans, Tallarn, etc could be represented better that way as actual dedicated unit types specializing in terrain/cover setups.

reorginizing the guard into the army would be impossiable, they'd have to be able to stand down long eneugh to impliment the changes

That's... not how the Imperium would do that.
If (somehow) convinced of the need to do it, the Imperium would start with newly raised regiments, and simply 'wear out' the existing regiments through attrition and casualties.

Which works just as well for GW. They could avoid invalidating armies and give people shiny new toys to buy.

Rahdok wrote:
If i had to guess the only factions that can't/won't get one that is soley for them is Adeptus Custodes, Grey Knights and Sisters. The only thing Custodes could get that would make sense would be Big E himself as that will never happen unless its some Avatar of big E then idk what they could do as they only really have like 6 named characters? Grey Knights ALREADY have their big guy and he's just a Hero (Kaldor Draigo) they could get 1 other dude but he's in no way a "Supreme Commander". And Sisters are essentially just women in armor , as they already have Celestine (an little immortal being thats died 100 times already) then i dont see what else.

Do Custodes and GK have subfactions? That’s one of the things suspected behind this. A cross sub-faction HQ Supreme Commander that doesn’t break Doctrine/Sept/etc, or LOW for the -Primarch who need a slot. The other Marine subfactions are likely to be left out, but expect 10th to make all the named Chapter Masters Supreme Commanders without the faction crossing to make up for the “missing” character slot. Expect GW to forget not all chapters have a named CM, or that some might want to DIY their CM or entire chapter so it won’t be supported outside of nameds.

Sisters will probably get Celestine.

Poor GSC

 Blndmage wrote:
Poor GSC

Swarm Lord and Old One Eye maybe. Or a new named Patriarch who can fit in Nids too.

Breton wrote:

Rahdok wrote:
If i had to guess the only factions that can't/won't get one that is soley for them is Adeptus Custodes, Grey Knights and Sisters. The only thing Custodes could get that would make sense would be Big E himself as that will never happen unless its some Avatar of big E then idk what they could do as they only really have like 6 named characters? Grey Knights ALREADY have their big guy and he's just a Hero (Kaldor Draigo) they could get 1 other dude but he's in no way a "Supreme Commander". And Sisters are essentially just women in armor , as they already have Celestine (an little immortal being thats died 100 times already) then i dont see what else.

Do Custodes and GK have subfactions? That’s one of the things suspected behind this. A cross sub-faction HQ Supreme Commander that doesn’t break Doctrine/Sept/etc, or LOW for the -Primarch who need a slot. The other Marine subfactions are likely to be left out, but expect 10th to make all the named Chapter Masters Supreme Commanders without the faction crossing to make up for the “missing” character slot. Expect GW to forget not all chapters have a named CM, or that some might want to DIY their CM or entire chapter so it won’t be supported outside of nameds.

Sisters will probably get Celestine.

Celestine makes some sense yeah, and yeah I don't expect custodes or GKs to get anything. nor will space marines get any other supreme commanders until/unless more primarchs return.

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

Rahdok wrote:
If i had to guess the only factions that can't/won't get one that is soley for them is Adeptus Custodes, Grey Knights and Sisters. The only thing Custodes could get that would make sense would be Big E himself as that will never happen unless its some Avatar of big E then idk what they could do as they only really have like 6 named characters? Grey Knights ALREADY have their big guy and he's just a Hero (Kaldor Draigo) they could get 1 other dude but he's in no way a "Supreme Commander". And Sisters are essentially just women in armor , as they already have Celestine (an little immortal being thats died 100 times already) then i dont see what else.

Do Custodes and GK have subfactions? That’s one of the things suspected behind this. A cross sub-faction HQ Supreme Commander that doesn’t break Doctrine/Sept/etc, or LOW for the -Primarch who need a slot. The other Marine subfactions are likely to be left out, but expect 10th to make all the named Chapter Masters Supreme Commanders without the faction crossing to make up for the “missing” character slot. Expect GW to forget not all chapters have a named CM, or that some might want to DIY their CM or entire chapter so it won’t be supported outside of nameds.

Sisters will probably get Celestine.

Celestine makes some sense yeah, and yeah I don't expect custodes or GKs to get anything. nor will space marines get any other supreme commanders until/unless more primarchs return.

In 9th, unless we get supplement 9.5’s. I still think named Chapter Masters get Supreme Commander so non Guilliman chapters get the bonus character/HQ slot.

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

Rahdok wrote:
If i had to guess the only factions that can't/won't get one that is soley for them is Adeptus Custodes, Grey Knights and Sisters. The only thing Custodes could get that would make sense would be Big E himself as that will never happen unless its some Avatar of big E then idk what they could do as they only really have like 6 named characters? Grey Knights ALREADY have their big guy and he's just a Hero (Kaldor Draigo) they could get 1 other dude but he's in no way a "Supreme Commander". And Sisters are essentially just women in armor , as they already have Celestine (an little immortal being thats died 100 times already) then i dont see what else.

Do Custodes and GK have subfactions? That’s one of the things suspected behind this. A cross sub-faction HQ Supreme Commander that doesn’t break Doctrine/Sept/etc, or LOW for the -Primarch who need a slot. The other Marine subfactions are likely to be left out, but expect 10th to make all the named Chapter Masters Supreme Commanders without the faction crossing to make up for the “missing” character slot. Expect GW to forget not all chapters have a named CM, or that some might want to DIY their CM or entire chapter so it won’t be supported outside of nameds.

Sisters will probably get Celestine.

Celestine makes some sense yeah, and yeah I don't expect custodes or GKs to get anything. nor will space marines get any other supreme commanders until/unless more primarchs return.

In 9th, unless we get supplement 9.5’s. I still think named Chapter Masters get Supreme Commander so non Guilliman chapters get the bonus character/HQ slot.

don't bet on it

Swarmlord should be the Tyranid one

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

Rahdok wrote:
If i had to guess the only factions that can't/won't get one that is soley for them is Adeptus Custodes, Grey Knights and Sisters. The only thing Custodes could get that would make sense would be Big E himself as that will never happen unless its some Avatar of big E then idk what they could do as they only really have like 6 named characters? Grey Knights ALREADY have their big guy and he's just a Hero (Kaldor Draigo) they could get 1 other dude but he's in no way a "Supreme Commander". And Sisters are essentially just women in armor , as they already have Celestine (an little immortal being thats died 100 times already) then i dont see what else.

Do Custodes and GK have subfactions? That’s one of the things suspected behind this. A cross sub-faction HQ Supreme Commander that doesn’t break Doctrine/Sept/etc, or LOW for the -Primarch who need a slot. The other Marine subfactions are likely to be left out, but expect 10th to make all the named Chapter Masters Supreme Commanders without the faction crossing to make up for the “missing” character slot. Expect GW to forget not all chapters have a named CM, or that some might want to DIY their CM or entire chapter so it won’t be supported outside of nameds.

Sisters will probably get Celestine.

Celestine makes some sense yeah, and yeah I don't expect custodes or GKs to get anything. nor will space marines get any other supreme commanders until/unless more primarchs return.

In 9th, unless we get supplement 9.5’s. I still think named Chapter Masters get Supreme Commander so non Guilliman chapters get the bonus character/HQ slot.

don't bet on it

Not any time soon, my original guess was 10th edition. But it occured to me we could see a halfway wave two of new supplements.

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

Rahdok wrote:
If i had to guess the only factions that can't/won't get one that is soley for them is Adeptus Custodes, Grey Knights and Sisters. The only thing Custodes could get that would make sense would be Big E himself as that will never happen unless its some Avatar of big E then idk what they could do as they only really have like 6 named characters? Grey Knights ALREADY have their big guy and he's just a Hero (Kaldor Draigo) they could get 1 other dude but he's in no way a "Supreme Commander". And Sisters are essentially just women in armor , as they already have Celestine (an little immortal being thats died 100 times already) then i dont see what else.

Do Custodes and GK have subfactions? That’s one of the things suspected behind this. A cross sub-faction HQ Supreme Commander that doesn’t break Doctrine/Sept/etc, or LOW for the -Primarch who need a slot. The other Marine subfactions are likely to be left out, but expect 10th to make all the named Chapter Masters Supreme Commanders without the faction crossing to make up for the “missing” character slot. Expect GW to forget not all chapters have a named CM, or that some might want to DIY their CM or entire chapter so it won’t be supported outside of nameds.

Sisters will probably get Celestine.

Celestine makes some sense yeah, and yeah I don't expect custodes or GKs to get anything. nor will space marines get any other supreme commanders until/unless more primarchs return.

In 9th, unless we get supplement 9.5’s. I still think named Chapter Masters get Supreme Commander so non Guilliman chapters get the bonus character/HQ slot.

don't bet on it

Not any time soon, my original guess was 10th edition. But it occured to me we could see a halfway wave two of new supplements.

yet again, don't bet on it. If I was a betting man GW'll rewrite the supreme command detachment again for 10th.

sanguine40k wrote:
Given he is effectively Guilliman's 2IC (& is the regent of the entire Imperium Nihilus), Dante should *definitely* get the Supreme Commander keyword.

I really don't see Dante commanding an imperial force without a host of blood angels being present though, which kind of is the point of these supreme commanders. Thrakka, Shadowsun or Szarekh are pretty likely to command an army with not a single other member of their respective sub-faction being present.

I think they'll either go one of two ways.

Either each army will get one, in which case, most people have been listing the likes - Named chapter masters, Eldrad, Trajan, Mortarion, Magnus, Farsight, Fabius, Creed, Vect - who doesn't exist as a playable character any longer - Forgeworld Greater Daemons, Celestine, Cawl etc.

Or, it will be a case of requiring status enough to do something like regularly command or unite an species or 'super faction' (for want of a better term), in which case I think there will be far less. In fact, I would think - Yvraine (with a buff), Abaddon, Guilliman, Swarmlord, Silent King, Tau Special Ethereal I Can't Remember the Name of and Ghazgull. WHetehr they should all be comparable power on the table top or not is a different debate; I don't think they need to be so long as the point efficiency is fair.

I prefer the latter of the two but it will really depend on the mechanic they're trying to introduce via the key word.

Well, Mortarion, Magnus and Guilliman probably won't be getting the Supreme Commander keyword.

They already have the Primarch / Daemon Primarch keyword which has the same function.

 Dysartes wrote:
Are you holding out for a hero, mrFickle?

Well played Sir.

Now I have that song stuck in my head for the day!

mrFickle wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Are you holding out for a hero, mrFickle?

Just someone who can do this presentation for me

What kind of hero are you waiting for?
I guess he's got to be strong, and he's got to be fast and he got to be fresh from the fight!

I think some people are confusing what an actual supreme commander is and the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword.

Dante may be the supreme commander of the Blood Angels, but he doesn't need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword because he is never going to lead a force of Iron Hands.

It is just like the CORE keyword. Space Marine Captains are a core part of a Space Marine force, but they don't get the CORE keyword because of its function in the rules of the game. Just because a character is a supreme commander of their faction/sept/chapter/regiment or whatever it may be doesn't necessarily mean they need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword for rules purposes.

True about Dante.

That said, I doubt they made the keyword for one miniature only. There is design space GW presumably wants to use.

Perhaps Aun'Va with a new, pimped-up model-on-massive-flying-Tau-throne can lead any Tau force (or he could come with a caveat that Farsight stuff cannot be included). Perhaps the Swarmlord won't get it, but GW has a new Junior-Dominatrix-unit or something along those lines in the making.

GW clearly likes to throw out big models like the Silent King, so presumably there'll be more.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
True about Dante.

That said, I doubt they made the keyword for one miniature only. There is design space GW presumably wants to use.

Perhaps Aun'Va with a new, pimped-up model-on-massive-flying-Tau-throne can lead any Tau force (or he could come with a caveat that Farsight stuff cannot be included). Perhaps the Swarmlord won't get it, but GW has a new Junior-Dominatrix-unit or something along those lines in the making.

GW clearly likes to throw out big models like the Silent King, so presumably there'll be more.

I definitely think there will be more from both existing characters and new characters. I think Shadowsun will probably be the T'au one because she already has a special rule where she can be with any Sept and not break their bonuses which is essentially what the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword is all about.

I believe we will see a lot of overlap with the new "centerpiece" models and this new keyword this edition.

Mud Turkey 13 wrote:I think some people are confusing what an actual supreme commander is and the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword.

Dante may be the supreme commander of the Blood Angels, but he doesn't need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword because he is never going to lead a force of Iron Hands.

It is just like the CORE keyword. Space Marine Captains are a core part of a Space Marine force, but they don't get the CORE keyword because of its function in the rules of the game. Just because a character is a supreme commander of their faction/sept/chapter/regiment or whatever it may be doesn't necessarily mean they need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword for rules purposes.

So by that vein, there's literally no point to them existing at all since Primarchs like Magnus and Mortarion can't really do anything with non-TS/DG forces.

The function of Supreme Commander isn't to lead 'a force of Iron Hands'. It's to let you take a character without it messing with your main FOC.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Perhaps Aun'Va with a new, pimped-up model-on-massive-flying-Tau-throne can lead any Tau force (or he could come with a caveat that Farsight stuff cannot be included). Perhaps the Swarmlord won't get it, but GW has a new Junior-Dominatrix-unit or something along those lines in the making.

GW clearly likes to throw out big models like the Silent King, so presumably there'll be more.

I highly doubt it would be Aun'Va for the Tau, given the events of the Damocles books(Kau'yon and Mont'ka). More likely than not it would be Shadowsun and Farsight.

I see no reason why Dante couldn't lead a force of non-Blood Angels - it might seem unlikely that he'll lead them directly on the battlefield, but it's certainly not unheard of for him to command them, even at individual battle level.
Remember that he had ultimate command of all the Marine Chapters at the 3rd War for Armageddon, because the other Chapter Masters recognised he'd do a great job. I'm sure they wouldn't be averse to him saying "I need a few of your squads here, just a little up the road from where my boys are dropping."
And that's just other Marine Chapters - your average Guard Colonel would probably get a Commissar bullet through the head just for refusing a request from Dante.

Again, Supreme Commanders aren't there for you to get to throw someone else into another army.

It's for a non-standard HQ choice.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mud Turkey 13 wrote:I think some people are confusing what an actual supreme commander is and the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword.

Dante may be the supreme commander of the Blood Angels, but he doesn't need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword because he is never going to lead a force of Iron Hands.

It is just like the CORE keyword. Space Marine Captains are a core part of a Space Marine force, but they don't get the CORE keyword because of its function in the rules of the game. Just because a character is a supreme commander of their faction/sept/chapter/regiment or whatever it may be doesn't necessarily mean they need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword for rules purposes.

So by that vein, there's literally no point to them existing at all since Primarchs like Magnus and Mortarion can't really do anything with non-TS/DG forces.

The function of Supreme Commander isn't to lead 'a force of Iron Hands'. It's to let you take a character without it messing with your main FOC.

Magnus and Mortarion don't get the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword because that is not their purpose. They have the DAEMON PRIMARCH keyword for exactly the purpose you just mentioned. You can add them without messing up your main FOC. SUPREME COMMANDER is different in function even though it fits in the same detachment that units with the DAEMON PRIMARCH keyword go into. It is for units like Shadowsun who belong to a specific Sept but who are high enough up in a leadership role that they would lead all units in the their faction even if those units come from other Septs.

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mud Turkey 13 wrote:I think some people are confusing what an actual supreme commander is and the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword.

Dante may be the supreme commander of the Blood Angels, but he doesn't need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword because he is never going to lead a force of Iron Hands.

It is just like the CORE keyword. Space Marine Captains are a core part of a Space Marine force, but they don't get the CORE keyword because of its function in the rules of the game. Just because a character is a supreme commander of their faction/sept/chapter/regiment or whatever it may be doesn't necessarily mean they need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword for rules purposes.

So by that vein, there's literally no point to them existing at all since Primarchs like Magnus and Mortarion can't really do anything with non-TS/DG forces.

The function of Supreme Commander isn't to lead 'a force of Iron Hands'. It's to let you take a character without it messing with your main FOC.

Magnus and Mortarion don't get the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword because that is not their purpose. They have the DAEMON PRIMARCH keyword for exactly the purpose you just mentioned. You can add them without messing up your main FOC. SUPREME COMMANDER is different in function even though it fits in the same detachment that units with the DAEMON PRIMARCH keyword go into. It is for units like Shadowsun who belong to a specific Sept but who are high enough up in a leadership role that they would lead all units in the their faction even if those units come from other Septs.

You might want to reread what your post is that I replied to then, because your argument in there presents exactly the opposite of what you're arguing here.

Dante might not lead a force of Iron Hands...but he might lead a force of Flesh Tearers or Lamenters. How's he gonna do that without SC?
Azrael definitely is a good choice for Supreme Commander, if one reads the fluff, since he can call up the other Unforgiven Chapters. Same question.
Shrike is a fantastic choice for Supreme Commander, given that he and his Wing(which it's downright frigging criminal that they didn't actually give us) are basically traveling from warzone to warzone and intervening where they so choose.


Supreme Command Detachment is intended to allow for you to take what is effectively 'a hero of note'. Hence the Daemon Primarch, Primarch, and Supreme Commander caveats.
If you cannot see where several of the characters mentioned would qualify? That's on you.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mud Turkey 13 wrote:I think some people are confusing what an actual supreme commander is and the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword.

Dante may be the supreme commander of the Blood Angels, but he doesn't need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword because he is never going to lead a force of Iron Hands.

It is just like the CORE keyword. Space Marine Captains are a core part of a Space Marine force, but they don't get the CORE keyword because of its function in the rules of the game. Just because a character is a supreme commander of their faction/sept/chapter/regiment or whatever it may be doesn't necessarily mean they need the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword for rules purposes.

So by that vein, there's literally no point to them existing at all since Primarchs like Magnus and Mortarion can't really do anything with non-TS/DG forces.

The function of Supreme Commander isn't to lead 'a force of Iron Hands'. It's to let you take a character without it messing with your main FOC.

Magnus and Mortarion don't get the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword because that is not their purpose. They have the DAEMON PRIMARCH keyword for exactly the purpose you just mentioned. You can add them without messing up your main FOC. SUPREME COMMANDER is different in function even though it fits in the same detachment that units with the DAEMON PRIMARCH keyword go into. It is for units like Shadowsun who belong to a specific Sept but who are high enough up in a leadership role that they would lead all units in the their faction even if those units come from other Septs.

You might want to reread what your post is that I replied to then, because your argument in there presents exactly the opposite of what you're arguing here.

Dante might not lead a force of Iron Hands...but he might lead a force of Flesh Tearers or Lamenters. How's he gonna do that without SC?

The same way he did in Blood Of Baal. He told Seth where to go and what to do, and Seth was the battlefield commander of the Fleshtearers. Now you have a point that successor chapters (especially the inheritors carbon copies) should be able to take some nameds from their primogenitor, but that's usually "fixed" by Counts As.

Azrael definitely is a good choice for Supreme Commander, if one reads the fluff, since he can call up the other Unforgiven Chapters. Same question.

Same answer.

Shrike is a fantastic choice for Supreme Commander, given that he and his Wing(which it's downright frigging criminal that they didn't actually give us) are basically traveling from warzone to warzone and intervening where they so choose.

And he and his wing generally do it without the assistance, participation or sometimes even knowledge of the Guard etc.

Supreme Command Detachment is intended to allow for you to take what is effectively 'a hero of note'. Hence the Daemon Primarch, Primarch, and Supreme Commander caveats.
If you cannot see where several of the characters mentioned would qualify? That's on you.

Those characters are going to be leading a force of their own in a small area, they rarely mingle with other forces in a battle vs the campaign.

You're right that Dante might be in charge of the defense of an entire planet, but the games are representative of a small battle or skirmish part of that defense.

Now I believe EVENTUALLY Dante, maybe Azrael (assuming Johnson isn't back and awake by then) and some other Marine Chapter Masters (Shrike?) will get the keyword. but not for a while, and not until after those players complain (somewhat rightly so) they don't get the extra character this Det would give them.

Celestine would cross sisterhoods, assuming she even has an Order of her Own (probably doesn't.

Guard are probably getting a new character to replace Creed as the highest ranking Special they can take.

Custodes are probably going to be forgotten like Grey Knights and chapters with/without a CM for a while.

Cawl has a forgeworld preselected, but will probably get a cross faction rule similar to Shadowsun.

Knights aren't getting anything except maybe a special rule to make one of their Knights eligible - but they don't really need it either as they're more points limited than slot limited.

Inquisitor nameds may all get it.

Chaos Daemons probably lose out. Daemon animosity is too much of a thing for Kairos to be a Warlord of a Khorne army.

Abbadon maybe gets it, probably doesn't because they're already trying to do this with CSM. But maybe.

Eldar has way too many different ways to go to guess. Phoenix Lords, Eldrad, Yvraine,

GSC will either share one with Nids, or get a named Patriarch.

Ghaz turning into the Primeork has been guessed by others the last time this thread came up, and makes quite a bit of sense.

Am not sure about how it looks for other countries, but on the Polish version of the GW store site. The officials name for Azrael, is
Commander Azrael, Suprem Grand Master.
So I guess to make him the rule they would have to re name him to Suprem commander, Commander Azrael, Suprem Grand Master.

Maybe it is better that he isn't one, because it sound really stupid to me.

Karol wrote:
Am not sure about how it looks for other countries, but on the Polish version of the GW store site. The officials name for Azrael, is
Commander Azrael, Suprem Grand Master.
So I guess to make him the rule they would have to re name him to Suprem commander, Commander Azrael, Suprem Grand Master.

Maybe it is better that he isn't one, because it sound really stupid to me.

not quite, as Supreme Commander is a keyword attached to a unit, like Imperium, or Dark Angel, etc. it wouldn't become part of the title of Supreme Grand Master Azrael. its just their for rules purposes to let GW hang certian rules or restrictions off of a unit or character (like letting you take a Supreme Commander into that special commander detachment), not an additional title given to the unit.

Yes, but they won't all receive a new model I don't think. For most armies they'll just take a pre-existing unit and make it their LoW character. Gazzy is an obvious one.

They don’t have to be a LOW. They have to be EITHER

a Lord Of War

OR

an HQ with the SUPREME COMMANDER keyword

THANK you for THE clarification

Celestine seems likely as she is inspiration to Imperial troops - both Church and Guard and so makes sense to allow her to be easily taken for either.

Am not sure of it, but if the imperial church works like any church in earth history, then I have my doubts how happy it would be with anyone from outside of the church structure having any influance on anything. I understand why SoBs may be okey with her, but saints flying around is not something a cardinal or governor would want to see.

Karol wrote:
Am not sure of it, but if the imperial church works like any church in earth history, then I have my doubts how happy it would be with anyone from outside of the church structure having any influance on anything. I understand why SoBs may be okey with her, but saints flying around is not something a cardinal or governor would want to see.

She is a divine instrument of the Emperors Will and is seen as such - she was instrumental in having RG accepted by her acceptance and blessing of him. The lore is very clear on this. Her arrival on Cadia was like a new dawn, striking down the Deamon horde and inspiring all who saw her.

You have to remember - many Imperials, even some Inqusitors, Cardinals and Govenors believe in Him.

She also does not tend to stick around in one place for long or get involved with politics unless its pertinentant to her misson.

Also see the power of Saint Sabat in the Ghosts novels - both are the equivalent of an actual Angel coming down to Earth, even if the Governor (etc) does not believe - the majority of the hmans that see her will do.

I'm looking forward to the second coming of our lord and savior, VALDOR.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Dante might not lead a force of Iron Hands...but he might lead a force of Flesh Tearers or Lamenters. How's he gonna do that without SC?
Azrael definitely is a good choice for Supreme Commander, if one reads the fluff, since he can call up the other Unforgiven Chapters. Same question.
Shrike is a fantastic choice for Supreme Commander, given that he and his Wing(which it's downright frigging criminal that they didn't actually give us) are basically traveling from warzone to warzone and intervening where they so choose.


Supreme Command Detachment is intended to allow for you to take what is effectively 'a hero of note'. Hence the Daemon Primarch, Primarch, and Supreme Commander caveats.
If you cannot see where several of the characters mentioned would qualify? That's on you.

That's just your interpretation though.
The way I see it the supreme command detachment is made to support two things: Enable named characters with locked sub-faction to be taken by any sub-faction and to enable primarchs to be played by their own faction without a 3 CP tax. There really is no need for every named chapter master to become a supreme commander because for one you can already play those armies as they are right now with zero drawbacks, and secondly there is no need to open up the possibility to randomly add a slot-free chapter master to any random Imperium army.
The keyword very much symbolizes a character leading that army into battle, not just technically being their superior.

I also don't see a reason to enable Dante to lead an army of flesh tearers or lamenters - he is their supreme commander in large scale conflicts, so their commanders take orders from him, but I am not aware of any incident where Dante took direct control of a successor chapter's army. In all sources I could find, it was always a group of blood angels lead by Dante cooperating with their successors who were lead by their respective commander.
I know it's the same for High Marshall Helbrecht whose title (if I remember the novel correctly) automatically makes him the supreme commander of any naval battle going on in the area, yet he would rarely, if ever, lead an army of anything but Black Templars into battle.
I didn't do as much research on the other chapter masters, but I don't remember ever reading any fluff or novel that described a space marine leading an army from another chapter, not even their successors. There are some stories where some survivors were forced to join another chapter or legion in the heat of battle, but they would usually put themselves under that armies commander, even if they outranked them.
The only real "supreme commanders" leading an army of space marines I can see are primarchs or inquisitors.

I could see Celestine and/or the Funeral Procession being a Supreme Commander specifically for Sisters' sub-factions - but only Celestine for the Guard.
In fact, thinking of the Guard... I very much doubt he'll make a return now, but the one Guard character I can think of that'd fit is Lord Solar Macharius.

Daemons could maybe buff Belakor on the table and make him a supreme commander? Perhaps not. The named greater daemons came to mind, but they'd need buffs in a future codex because currently a regular GD with one or two exalted traits and a relic is better.

Several factions don't have any need or use for a Supreme Commander. The concept simply doesn't fit.

Daemons, non-dark eldar, individual chapters/legions (barring an unnecessary avalanche of primarchs), Guard (someone is at the top of the chain in every warzone, but that really doesn't fit the way the game uses the concept), Custards, Genestealer Cults (really, their point is planetary suicide).

Honestly even orks and tyranids are a hard sell. I get that GW wants to sell its stupid big centerpiece models, but Ghaz doesn't have any innate influence over orks he can't reach. If he's on Armaggeddon, the Warboss of Planet-a-dozen-sectors-away isn't likely to know or care.

 Mr Morden wrote:

She is a divine instrument of the Emperors Will and is seen as such - she was instrumental in having RG accepted by her acceptance and blessing of him. The lore is very clear on this. Her arrival on Cadia was like a new dawn, striking down the Deamon horde and inspiring all who saw her.

You have to remember - many Imperials, even some Inqusitors, Cardinals and Govenors believe in Him.

She also does not tend to stick around in one place for long or get involved with politics unless its pertinentant to her misson.

Also see the power of Saint Sabat in the Ghosts novels - both are the equivalent of an actual Angel coming down to Earth, even if the Governor (etc) does not believe - the majority of the hmans that see her will do.

Yes, and if a girl would suddenly pop up and have the support of king and country, the church would not like it. It doesn't matter who she is and who she claims sent her or who outside of the hierachy likes or supports here. Only two things matter how power structures are split between different ranks in the church and that you never ever ever let someone outside of the church make decisions that encroach in to the area that is of church interests. That is why bishops started civil wars in countries by puting curses on kings, khans,rahjas etc. This is why all churchs always see the wondering preacher as one of their main enemies, why it is so hard to establish a convent in any relgion or why any church member hierarch gets an aleregic reaction when some people decide that now they are going to pick their own priests and representatives. You get wars of faith that way.

Voss wrote:
Several factions don't have any need or use for a Supreme Commander. The concept simply doesn't fit.

Daemons, non-dark eldar, individual chapters/legions (barring an unnecessary avalanche of primarchs), Guard (someone is at the top of the chain in every warzone, but that really doesn't fit the way the game uses the concept), Custards, Genestealer Cults (really, their point is planetary suicide).

Honestly even orks and tyranids are a hard sell. I get that GW wants to sell its stupid big centerpiece models, but Ghaz doesn't have any innate influence over orks he can't reach. If he's on Armaggeddon, the Warboss of Planet-a-dozen-sectors-away isn't likely to know or care.

Ghazgkull fluffwize started as a Goff but his waaagh then included groups from all other clans, I'd say he qualifies. Similar to Abaddon, even the Daemon Primarchs followed him more or less, he's definitely more of a Chaos Supreme Commander than Morty and Magnus who only care for their own Legion and probably their close allies in the form of Traitor Guardsmen.

I would like to see a new Swarm Lord and a Norn Queen.

Karol wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

She is a divine instrument of the Emperors Will and is seen as such - she was instrumental in having RG accepted by her acceptance and blessing of him. The lore is very clear on this. Her arrival on Cadia was like a new dawn, striking down the Deamon horde and inspiring all who saw her.

You have to remember - many Imperials, even some Inqusitors, Cardinals and Govenors believe in Him.

She also does not tend to stick around in one place for long or get involved with politics unless its pertinentant to her misson.

Also see the power of Saint Sabat in the Ghosts novels - both are the equivalent of an actual Angel coming down to Earth, even if the Governor (etc) does not believe - the majority of the hmans that see her will do.

Yes, and if a girl would suddenly pop up and have the support of king and country, the church would not like it. It doesn't matter who she is and who she claims sent her or who outside of the hierachy likes or supports here. Only two things matter how power structures are split between different ranks in the church and that you never ever ever let someone outside of the church make decisions that encroach in to the area that is of church interests. That is why bishops started civil wars in countries by puting curses on kings, khans,rahjas etc. This is why all churchs always see the wondering preacher as one of their main enemies, why it is so hard to establish a convent in any relgion or why any church member hierarch gets an aleregic reaction when some people decide that now they are going to pick their own priests and representatives. You get wars of faith that way.

But she is not "a girl" - she is the power of the Emperor manifest and if you see her - you see that. Its not a matter of her claiming stuff - its an in universe fact.

Thats the different between our world and hers - yes a girl can claim to be a messenger form god and no proof. Celestine arrives in a shower of light, smiting Greater Daemons as she does so - to look at her is to know the Emperor is with her.

She is also not a mortal seeking temporal power. When she appears if you know anything about her you will know that things are desperate (if its not obvious already)

You really need to look at the actual lore about her

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Voss wrote:
Several factions don't have any need or use for a Supreme Commander. The concept simply doesn't fit.

Daemons, non-dark eldar, individual chapters/legions (barring an unnecessary avalanche of primarchs), Guard (someone is at the top of the chain in every warzone, but that really doesn't fit the way the game uses the concept), Custards, Genestealer Cults (really, their point is planetary suicide).

Honestly even orks and tyranids are a hard sell. I get that GW wants to sell its stupid big centerpiece models, but Ghaz doesn't have any innate influence over orks he can't reach. If he's on Armaggeddon, the Warboss of Planet-a-dozen-sectors-away isn't likely to know or care.

Ghazgkull fluffwize started as a Goff but his waaagh then included groups from all other clans, I'd say he qualifies. Similar to Abaddon, even the Daemon Primarchs followed him more or less, he's definitely more of a Chaos Supreme Commander than Morty and Magnus who only care for their own Legion and probably their close allies in the form of Traitor Guardsmen.

Orks always fall in behind the toughest ork and that one will lead the waaaaaagh, so I expect Ghaz could command and empire of Orks. Like wise primarchs inspire loyalty and devotion in humans in the same way gravity inspires things to fall to the floor, it’s like an unescapable force. If Celestine is manifesting the emperors power then I expect it’s the same. Really that’s the level of being we’re talking about. There will be a Nid that fits the bill.

Aren’t the eldar resurrecting a god of war?

Voss wrote:
Ghaz doesn't have any innate influence over orks he can't reach. If he's on Armaggeddon, the Warboss of Planet-a-dozen-sectors-away isn't likely to know or care.

Actually, the current fluff states the very opposite. Ever since his departure from Armageddon and the start of the Great Waaagh! he has become a beacon of warp energy that is drawing in ork from a huge part of the galaxy (quote:"from hundreds of light years away"). In fact, when Ragnar decapitated him, it was immediately felt by every ork in the sector and spawned infighting over his succession everywhere - which was one of the reasons why the primaris wolves managed to successfully rescue Ragnar.
On top of that, he seems to be tellyporting around the galaxy - the map in Saga of the Beasts has sightings of him on both sides of the great rift, along the entire length of it. While not explicitly stated, he seems to have learned how to repeat the trick that allowed him to escape from Helbrecht and Yarrik to the other side of the galaxy.

Thrakka is no longer just a warboss with exceptional intellect like he was on Armageddon, he has become much more than that.

Karol wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

She is a divine instrument of the Emperors Will and is seen as such - she was instrumental in having RG accepted by her acceptance and blessing of him. The lore is very clear on this. Her arrival on Cadia was like a new dawn, striking down the Deamon horde and inspiring all who saw her.

You have to remember - many Imperials, even some Inqusitors, Cardinals and Govenors believe in Him.

She also does not tend to stick around in one place for long or get involved with politics unless its pertinentant to her misson.

Also see the power of Saint Sabat in the Ghosts novels - both are the equivalent of an actual Angel coming down to Earth, even if the Governor (etc) does not believe - the majority of the hmans that see her will do.

Yes, and if a girl would suddenly pop up and have the support of king and country, the church would not like it. It doesn't matter who she is and who she claims sent her or who outside of the hierachy likes or supports here. Only two things matter how power structures are split between different ranks in the church and that you never ever ever let someone outside of the church make decisions that encroach in to the area that is of church interests. That is why bishops started civil wars in countries by puting curses on kings, khans,rahjas etc. This is why all churchs always see the wondering preacher as one of their main enemies, why it is so hard to establish a convent in any relgion or why any church member hierarch gets an aleregic reaction when some people decide that now they are going to pick their own priests and representatives. You get wars of faith that way.

Karol, are you really saying that in the history of Europe a girl's never shown up and claimed a divine mandate of leadership and been supported by a king?

I think there's a lot of overthinking tbf because people want their own special snowflake to be The Chosen One.

Supreme Commanders are very obvious and not particularly complicated as most are very clearly defined by the fluff.

Imperium - Roboute
Chaos - Abaddon
Orks - Ghaz
Tyranids - Swarmlord
Necrons - Silent King

Then the actual debates are probably Yvraine vs Eldrad vs Asuremen for Eldar and the tau guys but Dante, Azrael and Celestine? C'mon, who you kidding? They take their marching orders from Roboute, plain and simple. I'm not saying that's the criteria for all of them, in some cases such as Abaddon and Ghaz it's because they can rally those entire factions and point them at one target (Mortarion and Magnus couldn't do it, per say). In the case of the Swarmlord, it's down to the fact a hive mind aka a single entity, repeatedly chooses it as the leader of its forces across countless warzones (no, the same doesn't apply to an Avatar of Khaine who is more a totem/beat stick than a commander at least to the passer by).

Otherwise it's just a case of GW giving each army their own SC, at which point it will obviously be chapter masters where applicable.

Unless the swarmlord gets some INCREDIBLlE buffs he just isn't on par with the current supreme commanders.

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol, are you really saying that in the history of Europe a girl's never shown up and claimed a divine mandate of leadership and been supported by a king?

It happened. Then she got burned as a witch, from my understanding of the most well-known example.

 Lance845 wrote:
Unless the swarmlord gets some INCREDIBLlE buffs he just isn't on par with the current supreme commanders.

Maybe they'll let him re-roll 1's to wound if he charges?

That'd make him good, right?

Nah we not all getting a hero..

Some will get mor heroes than others

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Unless the swarmlord gets some INCREDIBLlE buffs he just isn't on par with the current supreme commanders.

Maybe they'll let him re-roll 1's to wound if he charges?

That'd make him good, right?

Is that a joke? I honestly don't know your position on this and cannot tell.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Unless the swarmlord gets some INCREDIBLlE buffs he just isn't on par with the current supreme commanders.

Maybe they'll let him re-roll 1's to wound if he charges?

That'd make him good, right?

Pfft nah, Give him an extra mortal wound if he rolls a 6 on his wound, but jack his price up a hundred points and make in a LOW, that's more like it!
(and yes I obviously am joking, that'd be horriable but it's not outside the realm of a GW "upgrade")

I am personally fine with the Patriarch being the biggest bad a Genestealer Cult (as a GSC player) can field directly (read: not allying Tyranids). Given the nature of GSC, I don't know if makes that much sense to have a named version let alone one worthy of being a Lord of War. I mean maybe there can be a named one that has managed to successfully summon the hive, was integrated/escaped becoming goo and was found really good at setting up additional franchises. But that might lock them into a particular cult. Which despite plans generations in the making, are pretty transitory once open combat begins.

Karol wrote:
Am not sure of it, but if the imperial church works like any church in earth history, then I have my doubts how happy it would be with anyone from outside of the church structure having any influance on anything. I understand why SoBs may be okey with her, but saints flying around is not something a cardinal or governor would want to see.

You're forgetting there is only one church. The Cardinals and Governors will be unhappy because of a loss of power a dystopian corrupt bureaucracy not denominational things.

Semper wrote:
I think there's a lot of overthinking tbf because people want their own special snowflake to be The Chosen One.

Supreme Commanders are very obvious and not particularly complicated as most are very clearly defined by the fluff.

Imperium - Roboute
Chaos - Abaddon
Orks - Ghaz
Tyranids - Swarmlord
Necrons - Silent King

Then the actual debates are probably Yvraine vs Eldrad vs Asuremen for Eldar and the tau guys but Dante, Azrael and Celestine? C'mon, who you kidding? They take their marching orders from Roboute, plain and simple. I'm not saying that's the criteria for all of them, in some cases such as Abaddon and Ghaz it's because they can rally those entire factions and point them at one target (Mortarion and Magnus couldn't do it, per say). In the case of the Swarmlord, it's down to the fact a hive mind aka a single entity, repeatedly chooses it as the leader of its forces across countless warzones (no, the same doesn't apply to an Avatar of Khaine who is more a totem/beat stick than a commander at least to the passer by).

Otherwise it's just a case of GW giving each army their own SC, at which point it will obviously be chapter masters where applicable.

I agree, but I'm not even too sure about Abaddon. While his legion draws in marines from all across the galaxy, people like Typhus or Huron would temporary allies, but generally see themselves on the same level as him. He really is more similar to the chapter masters than to Gulliman.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I am personally fine with the Patriarch being the biggest bad a Genestealer Cult (as a GSC player) can field directly (read: not allying Tyranids). Given the nature of GSC, I don't know if makes that much sense to have a named version let alone one worthy of being a Lord of War. I mean maybe there can be a named one that has managed to successfully summon the hive, was integrated/escaped becoming goo and was found really good at setting up additional franchises. But that might lock them into a particular cult. Which despite plans generations in the making, are pretty transitory once open combat begins.

Supposedly even if they go goo, they come back with their memories - At least that was the fluff I saw for Old One Eye or the Swarmlord. They die, or they get reabsorbed, then get reborn with their memories or some such.

Semper wrote:
I think there's a lot of overthinking tbf because people want their own special snowflake to be The Chosen One.

Supreme Commanders are very obvious and not particularly complicated as most are very clearly defined by the fluff.

Imperium - Roboute
Chaos - Abaddon
Orks - Ghaz
Tyranids - Swarmlord
Necrons - Silent King

Then the actual debates are probably Yvraine vs Eldrad vs Asuremen for Eldar and the tau guys but Dante, Azrael and Celestine? C'mon, who you kidding? They take their marching orders from Roboute, plain and simple. I'm not saying that's the criteria for all of them, in some cases such as Abaddon and Ghaz it's because they can rally those entire factions and point them at one target (Mortarion and Magnus couldn't do it, per say). In the case of the Swarmlord, it's down to the fact a hive mind aka a single entity, repeatedly chooses it as the leader of its forces across countless warzones (no, the same doesn't apply to an Avatar of Khaine who is more a totem/beat stick than a commander at least to the passer by).

Otherwise it's just a case of GW giving each army their own SC, at which point it will obviously be chapter masters where applicable.

Again, Roboute, Magnus and Mortarion won't get it, as the Primarch / Daemon Primarch keyword is already there and provides the exact same function (and has no other purpose).

Functionally, the 4 characters / units that can currently make use of the SC detachment at this point in time are:

- Guilliman
- Mortarion
- Magnus
- Silent King

Also, it's not clear the supreme commander is intended to be a super-leader for a soup-faction. E.g. Dante would be a good supreme commander, if the purpose is just to provide the SC detachment to Blood Angels, not if the intend is to have the SC detachment be an all-Imperium-soup things only.

Good point. We actually don't know which of the two variants GW has envisioned for the keyword, but I'll guess we will know when the first wave of supplements hit.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Semper wrote:
I think there's a lot of overthinking tbf because people want their own special snowflake to be The Chosen One.

Supreme Commanders are very obvious and not particularly complicated as most are very clearly defined by the fluff.

Imperium - Roboute
Chaos - Abaddon
Orks - Ghaz
Tyranids - Swarmlord
Necrons - Silent King

Then the actual debates are probably Yvraine vs Eldrad vs Asuremen for Eldar and the tau guys but Dante, Azrael and Celestine? C'mon, who you kidding? They take their marching orders from Roboute, plain and simple. I'm not saying that's the criteria for all of them, in some cases such as Abaddon and Ghaz it's because they can rally those entire factions and point them at one target (Mortarion and Magnus couldn't do it, per say). In the case of the Swarmlord, it's down to the fact a hive mind aka a single entity, repeatedly chooses it as the leader of its forces across countless warzones (no, the same doesn't apply to an Avatar of Khaine who is more a totem/beat stick than a commander at least to the passer by).

Otherwise it's just a case of GW giving each army their own SC, at which point it will obviously be chapter masters where applicable.

Again, Roboute, Magnus and Mortarion won't get it, as the Primarch / Daemon Primarch keyword is already there and provides the exact same function (and has no other purpose).

Functionally, the 4 characters / units that can currently make use of the SC detachment at this point in time are:

- Guilliman
- Mortarion
- Magnus
- Silent King

Also, it's not clear the supreme commander is intended to be a super-leader for a soup-faction. E.g. Dante would be a good supreme commander, if the purpose is just to provide the SC detachment to Blood Angels, not if the intend is to have the SC detachment be an all-Imperium-soup things only.

I don't think it's intended to "soup Imperium". It's intended to make the big bad named from various factions cross that faction's subfactions without severe penalty. Any Hive Fleet can (currently) take the Swarmlord or Old One Eye. Without his special rule, only the one Sept can take Shadowsun without losing their SEPT. The fact that his special rule is named almost exactly the same as the detachment is highly suggestive his special rule is the purpose of the detachment. I'd also look at the Silent King's cross subfaction rules if any.

Edit to Add: At some point the big bad from the factions that didn't get one probably will get one, because this is a Freebie HQ slot, and could/would cause some balance issues and a LOT of Squeaky Wheeling from (most of) the factions that don't get one.

Shadowsun is female.

Quite often in large campaigns the Marine Chapters will decide upon a Supreme Commander amongst the leaders available, and First Founding holds alot of weight as well as experience.

And of course they all looked to Yarrick in the Armegddon campaign.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Quite often in large campaigns the Marine Chapters will decide upon a Supreme Commander amongst the leaders available, and First Founding holds alot of weight as well as experience.

And of course they all looked to Yarrick in the Armegddon campaign.

But Yarrick etc didn't personally lead those other units. There's a difference between a global campaign, and a small area battle. Army lists are for the small area battle not the grand campaign. Dante, Yarrick, etc would absolutely fit as the main character of a Black Library novel as the genius snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. Neither would be at the head of an Imperial Fists army on the tabletop.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Quite often in large campaigns the Marine Chapters will decide upon a Supreme Commander amongst the leaders available, and First Founding holds alot of weight as well as experience.

And of course they all looked to Yarrick in the Armegddon campaign.

true but this isn't the norm. I mean I could see in a future campaign supplement there being some sort of special optional rule (likely for narrative play) to make a special character a supreme commander. Such as let's say for some reason GW releases a vigilius compendium that takes the fluff from both the two books and provides rules for running narrative campaigns in that enviroment, they then note that "in a "warzone vigilus narrative campaign, Maranus Calgar has the supreme commander keyword" etc

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Quite often in large campaigns the Marine Chapters will decide upon a Supreme Commander amongst the leaders available, and First Founding holds alot of weight as well as experience.

And of course they all looked to Yarrick in the Armegddon campaign.

true but this isn't the norm. I mean I could see in a future campaign supplement there being some sort of special optional rule (likely for narrative play) to make a special character a supreme commander. Such as let's say for some reason GW releases a vigilius compendium that takes the fluff from both the two books and provides rules for running narrative campaigns in that enviroment, they then note that "in a "warzone vigilus narrative campaign, Maranus Calgar has the supreme commander keyword" etc

Oh it is the norm, go look at the new SM codex and the what was it Damnos? Damocles? Several chapters show up, they hold a war council, nominate a top dog, and then split off into their theaters of operation. It wasn't Captain Sicarius, and Imperial Fist Intercessor Squad Lysedian. plus Ravenwing Squadron 3. (I didn't look up who went where) but basically the Ultras went to here, the Fists went to there, and Ravenwing went yet another place and did their own thing important to that area, and the campaign as a whole.

Breton 792927 10956198 wrote:

You're forgetting there is only one church. The Cardinals and Governors will be unhappy because of a loss of power a dystopian corrupt bureaucracy not denominational things.

Tell that to the greek ortodox and ortodox. Or the wars between different schools in judaism. Or what Persians mulachs thing about those in Saudia Arabia. Or what Indian Buddists thought about Chinese ones, and then what the Chinese thought about the ones from isle of Japan. In a church the structural power is inseparable from the denominational doctrin. What ever is a great synod in w40k, accepts that there are rite differences inside the church is normal. The catholic bishop in Poland is not going to care that much what a bishop in France says or does, with very few exeption. But try to make a independed from the official church structures thing, you will find huge opposition. Try stepping out from your area of expertise and the same happens. The church doesn't have to like or dislike the SoB, they have a place in the structure. But if SoB convent members suddenly decided that want to decide matters of faith or the governing of the faithful without the consent of the synod, even a symbolic one, there would be out right war and excomunications flying around. It would be as if the fleet or imperial army priesthood suddenly decided to involve themselfs in to matters of local planetary church. Try to do something like that and that is why we don't have the oldschool Jesuits anymore.

Shadowsun is the suppreme commander of the Tau Empire so she qualifies.


And about the Swarmlord, the Nightbringer received masive buffs without a new model so it is a possibility for him to become much more powerfull rule-wise and becoming a suppreme commander. Not like it is needed with him being able to be of any hive fleet but...

Can we maybe NOT let this descend into an argument on real-life sexism in politics...?

Wait, what? No one was talking about that.

PenitentJake wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Are you holding out for a hero, mrFickle?

Just someone who can do this presentation for me

I am.

But he's gotta be strong
And he's gotta be fast
And he's gotta be larger than life.

(That's right, when someone misses an 80's pop culture reference, you can always count on me to pick it up)

I'm glad a few of you picked up on it

 Kanluwen wrote:
Macaroth's dead anyways. Been dead for a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.

Only a factor if you think the "modern" timeline is where any character has to reside. Dead characters being a thing is nothing new - after all, look at the last Warmaster the IG had access to.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The biggest and best thing we can hope for right now is that Guilliman gets a bee in his bonnet and reorganizes the Imperial Army to be a thing. Specialist Regiments like Catachans, Tallarn, etc could be represented better that way as actual dedicated unit types specializing in terrain/cover setups.

No. Just no.

What the IG need is for the Miniature design team to collectively see a proctologist, then get some modern plastic Infantry sorted out.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Also don't know how you'd leave the Characters from each regiment like Straken, Harker, and Creed.

Well, Creed's in a stasis prison somewhere, with his bodyguard bro being dead. I don't think the last IG book mentioned anything as to Straken or Harker's current status, though.

 Blndmage wrote:
Poor GSC

I suspect they need some "vanilla" special characters before they have to worry about a SUPREME COMMANDER - maybe in their next wave?

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Swarmlord should be the Tyranid one

From currently available units? Maybe - but this seems the perfect time to introduce a reimagined Dominatrix

 Kanluwen wrote:
The function of Supreme Commander isn't to lead 'a force of Iron Hands'. It's to let you take a character without it messing with your main FOC.

I'd say that at the moment it seems a little hasty to predict the purpose of the detachment/keyword, aside from how it allows you to field RG/Morty/Maggie a bit more easily.

As someone said, the BA/DA/SW supplements may give some form of a hint there, with how Dante/Azrael/Logan get treated in terms of keywords (yes, I know they didn't get it in the Index).

 Lance845 wrote:
I would like to see a new Swarm Lord and a Norn Queen.

I'm pretty sure the Norn Queens are only ship-mounted, with the Dominatrix as the ultimate planetside representative, though I could be wrong on that.

They might want to change that unit name, admittedly.

 Jidmah wrote:
Shadowsun is female.

I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time this user has been called out for misgendering Shadowsun.

Karol wrote:

Breton 792927 10956198 wrote:

You're forgetting there is only one church. The Cardinals and Governors will be unhappy because of a loss of power a dystopian corrupt bureaucracy not denominational things.

Tell that to the greek ortodox and ortodox. Or the wars between different schools in judaism. Or what Persians mulachs thing about those in Saudia Arabia. Or what Indian Buddists thought about Chinese ones, and then what the Chinese thought about the ones from isle of Japan. In a church the structural power is inseparable from the denominational doctrin. What ever is a great synod in w40k, accepts that there are rite differences inside the church is normal. The catholic bishop in Poland is not going to care that much what a bishop in France says or does, with very few exeption. But try to make a independed from the official church structures thing, you will find huge opposition. Try stepping out from your area of expertise and the same happens. The church doesn't have to like or dislike the SoB, they have a place in the structure. But if SoB convent members suddenly decided that want to decide matters of faith or the governing of the faithful without the consent of the synod, even a symbolic one, there would be out right war and excomunications flying around. It would be as if the fleet or imperial army priesthood suddenly decided to involve themselfs in to matters of local planetary church. Try to do something like that and that is why we don't have the oldschool Jesuits anymore.

The issue that you are having is that you are confusing the real world with the 40K universe. Celestine is not viewed in the 40K lore as Joan of Arc is or was viewed by real world people. Celestine is "a living embodiment of the God-Emperor's might." She arrives unexpectedly when her presence is deemed necessary by the Emperor to act on his behalf. People are not worried about taking orders from her because they think she is moving in on their turf. "The faithful are filled with strength and courage by [her] presence, even as the heretics recoil in terror." Her arrival does not create conflict with individual church leaders or anything like that in the lore. She is not divisive like people who claim divine inspiration here in the real world because in the 40K lore everyone knows that she is the physical embodiment of the Emperor's might.

I think locking a detachment behind a named character is a poor move. Hope this will get revised eventually.

They can make up a new Ethereal Supreme to replace the now canonically dead Aun'va. Give him a big floating throne with a fleet of 10 drones providing shields and guns.

Norn Queens haven't been in the fluff officially for several editions. The closest thing to a reference we get in 6th is the Norn Crown bioartifact. They can make Norn Queens into anything they want at this stage.

 Argive wrote:
I think locking a detachment behind a named character is a poor move. Hope this will get revised eventually.

I think the mistake is the extra character slot. You get three HQ's, plus one more beatstick or a LOW if you do this Det, if you don't do this Det, you get... 3 HQ's. Some Armies just won't get one anyway - Knights are not going to get a Supreme Commander. GSC is unlikely. Nids I'm on the fence. Most SM Chapters aren't going to get one. (Well I should say right away - when people figure it out and start squealing GW will have to retcon some nameds and keywords.

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
The issue that you are having is that you are confusing the real world with the 40K universe. Celestine is not viewed in the 40K lore as Joan of Arc is or was viewed by real world people. Celestine is "a living embodiment of the God-Emperor's might." She arrives unexpectedly when her presence is deemed necessary by the Emperor to act on his behalf. People are not worried about taking orders from her because they think she is moving in on their turf. "The faithful are filled with strength and courage by [her] presence, even as the heretics recoil in terror." Her arrival does not create conflict with individual church leaders or anything like that in the lore. She is not divisive like people who claim divine inspiration here in the real world because in the 40K lore everyone knows that she is the physical embodiment of the Emperor's might.

The Imperium is full of corrupt, hypocritical backstabbers and sociopaths, though. I'm sure there are plenty who despise her.