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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Unless the swarmlord gets some INCREDIBLlE buffs he just isn't on par with the current supreme commanders.

Maybe they'll let him re-roll 1's to wound if he charges?

That'd make him good, right?

Pfft nah, Give him an extra mortal wound if he rolls a 6 on his wound, but jack his price up a hundred points and make in a LOW, that's more like it!
(and yes I obviously am joking, that'd be horriable but it's not outside the realm of a GW "upgrade")

I am personally fine with the Patriarch being the biggest bad a Genestealer Cult (as a GSC player) can field directly (read: not allying Tyranids). Given the nature of GSC, I don't know if makes that much sense to have a named version let alone one worthy of being a Lord of War. I mean maybe there can be a named one that has managed to successfully summon the hive, was integrated/escaped becoming goo and was found really good at setting up additional franchises. But that might lock them into a particular cult. Which despite plans generations in the making, are pretty transitory once open combat begins.

Karol wrote:
Am not sure of it, but if the imperial church works like any church in earth history, then I have my doubts how happy it would be with anyone from outside of the church structure having any influance on anything. I understand why SoBs may be okey with her, but saints flying around is not something a cardinal or governor would want to see.

You're forgetting there is only one church. The Cardinals and Governors will be unhappy because of a loss of power a dystopian corrupt bureaucracy not denominational things.

Semper wrote:
I think there's a lot of overthinking tbf because people want their own special snowflake to be The Chosen One.

Supreme Commanders are very obvious and not particularly complicated as most are very clearly defined by the fluff.

Imperium - Roboute
Chaos - Abaddon
Orks - Ghaz
Tyranids - Swarmlord
Necrons - Silent King

Then the actual debates are probably Yvraine vs Eldrad vs Asuremen for Eldar and the tau guys but Dante, Azrael and Celestine? C'mon, who you kidding? They take their marching orders from Roboute, plain and simple. I'm not saying that's the criteria for all of them, in some cases such as Abaddon and Ghaz it's because they can rally those entire factions and point them at one target (Mortarion and Magnus couldn't do it, per say). In the case of the Swarmlord, it's down to the fact a hive mind aka a single entity, repeatedly chooses it as the leader of its forces across countless warzones (no, the same doesn't apply to an Avatar of Khaine who is more a totem/beat stick than a commander at least to the passer by).

Otherwise it's just a case of GW giving each army their own SC, at which point it will obviously be chapter masters where applicable.

I agree, but I'm not even too sure about Abaddon. While his legion draws in marines from all across the galaxy, people like Typhus or Huron would temporary allies, but generally see themselves on the same level as him. He really is more similar to the chapter masters than to Gulliman.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I am personally fine with the Patriarch being the biggest bad a Genestealer Cult (as a GSC player) can field directly (read: not allying Tyranids). Given the nature of GSC, I don't know if makes that much sense to have a named version let alone one worthy of being a Lord of War. I mean maybe there can be a named one that has managed to successfully summon the hive, was integrated/escaped becoming goo and was found really good at setting up additional franchises. But that might lock them into a particular cult. Which despite plans generations in the making, are pretty transitory once open combat begins.

Supposedly even if they go goo, they come back with their memories - At least that was the fluff I saw for Old One Eye or the Swarmlord. They die, or they get reabsorbed, then get reborn with their memories or some such.

Semper wrote:
I think there's a lot of overthinking tbf because people want their own special snowflake to be The Chosen One.

Supreme Commanders are very obvious and not particularly complicated as most are very clearly defined by the fluff.

Imperium - Roboute
Chaos - Abaddon
Orks - Ghaz
Tyranids - Swarmlord
Necrons - Silent King

Then the actual debates are probably Yvraine vs Eldrad vs Asuremen for Eldar and the tau guys but Dante, Azrael and Celestine? C'mon, who you kidding? They take their marching orders from Roboute, plain and simple. I'm not saying that's the criteria for all of them, in some cases such as Abaddon and Ghaz it's because they can rally those entire factions and point them at one target (Mortarion and Magnus couldn't do it, per say). In the case of the Swarmlord, it's down to the fact a hive mind aka a single entity, repeatedly chooses it as the leader of its forces across countless warzones (no, the same doesn't apply to an Avatar of Khaine who is more a totem/beat stick than a commander at least to the passer by).

Otherwise it's just a case of GW giving each army their own SC, at which point it will obviously be chapter masters where applicable.

Again, Roboute, Magnus and Mortarion won't get it, as the Primarch / Daemon Primarch keyword is already there and provides the exact same function (and has no other purpose).

Functionally, the 4 characters / units that can currently make use of the SC detachment at this point in time are:

- Guilliman
- Mortarion
- Magnus
- Silent King

Also, it's not clear the supreme commander is intended to be a super-leader for a soup-faction. E.g. Dante would be a good supreme commander, if the purpose is just to provide the SC detachment to Blood Angels, not if the intend is to have the SC detachment be an all-Imperium-soup things only.

Good point. We actually don't know which of the two variants GW has envisioned for the keyword, but I'll guess we will know when the first wave of supplements hit.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Semper wrote:
I think there's a lot of overthinking tbf because people want their own special snowflake to be The Chosen One.

Supreme Commanders are very obvious and not particularly complicated as most are very clearly defined by the fluff.

Imperium - Roboute
Chaos - Abaddon
Orks - Ghaz
Tyranids - Swarmlord
Necrons - Silent King

Then the actual debates are probably Yvraine vs Eldrad vs Asuremen for Eldar and the tau guys but Dante, Azrael and Celestine? C'mon, who you kidding? They take their marching orders from Roboute, plain and simple. I'm not saying that's the criteria for all of them, in some cases such as Abaddon and Ghaz it's because they can rally those entire factions and point them at one target (Mortarion and Magnus couldn't do it, per say). In the case of the Swarmlord, it's down to the fact a hive mind aka a single entity, repeatedly chooses it as the leader of its forces across countless warzones (no, the same doesn't apply to an Avatar of Khaine who is more a totem/beat stick than a commander at least to the passer by).

Otherwise it's just a case of GW giving each army their own SC, at which point it will obviously be chapter masters where applicable.

Again, Roboute, Magnus and Mortarion won't get it, as the Primarch / Daemon Primarch keyword is already there and provides the exact same function (and has no other purpose).

Functionally, the 4 characters / units that can currently make use of the SC detachment at this point in time are:

- Guilliman
- Mortarion
- Magnus
- Silent King

Also, it's not clear the supreme commander is intended to be a super-leader for a soup-faction. E.g. Dante would be a good supreme commander, if the purpose is just to provide the SC detachment to Blood Angels, not if the intend is to have the SC detachment be an all-Imperium-soup things only.

I don't think it's intended to "soup Imperium". It's intended to make the big bad named from various factions cross that faction's subfactions without severe penalty. Any Hive Fleet can (currently) take the Swarmlord or Old One Eye. Without his special rule, only the one Sept can take Shadowsun without losing their SEPT. The fact that his special rule is named almost exactly the same as the detachment is highly suggestive his special rule is the purpose of the detachment. I'd also look at the Silent King's cross subfaction rules if any.

Edit to Add: At some point the big bad from the factions that didn't get one probably will get one, because this is a Freebie HQ slot, and could/would cause some balance issues and a LOT of Squeaky Wheeling from (most of) the factions that don't get one.

Shadowsun is female.

Quite often in large campaigns the Marine Chapters will decide upon a Supreme Commander amongst the leaders available, and First Founding holds alot of weight as well as experience.

And of course they all looked to Yarrick in the Armegddon campaign.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Quite often in large campaigns the Marine Chapters will decide upon a Supreme Commander amongst the leaders available, and First Founding holds alot of weight as well as experience.

And of course they all looked to Yarrick in the Armegddon campaign.

But Yarrick etc didn't personally lead those other units. There's a difference between a global campaign, and a small area battle. Army lists are for the small area battle not the grand campaign. Dante, Yarrick, etc would absolutely fit as the main character of a Black Library novel as the genius snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. Neither would be at the head of an Imperial Fists army on the tabletop.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Quite often in large campaigns the Marine Chapters will decide upon a Supreme Commander amongst the leaders available, and First Founding holds alot of weight as well as experience.

And of course they all looked to Yarrick in the Armegddon campaign.

true but this isn't the norm. I mean I could see in a future campaign supplement there being some sort of special optional rule (likely for narrative play) to make a special character a supreme commander. Such as let's say for some reason GW releases a vigilius compendium that takes the fluff from both the two books and provides rules for running narrative campaigns in that enviroment, they then note that "in a "warzone vigilus narrative campaign, Maranus Calgar has the supreme commander keyword" etc

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Quite often in large campaigns the Marine Chapters will decide upon a Supreme Commander amongst the leaders available, and First Founding holds alot of weight as well as experience.

And of course they all looked to Yarrick in the Armegddon campaign.

true but this isn't the norm. I mean I could see in a future campaign supplement there being some sort of special optional rule (likely for narrative play) to make a special character a supreme commander. Such as let's say for some reason GW releases a vigilius compendium that takes the fluff from both the two books and provides rules for running narrative campaigns in that enviroment, they then note that "in a "warzone vigilus narrative campaign, Maranus Calgar has the supreme commander keyword" etc

Oh it is the norm, go look at the new SM codex and the what was it Damnos? Damocles? Several chapters show up, they hold a war council, nominate a top dog, and then split off into their theaters of operation. It wasn't Captain Sicarius, and Imperial Fist Intercessor Squad Lysedian. plus Ravenwing Squadron 3. (I didn't look up who went where) but basically the Ultras went to here, the Fists went to there, and Ravenwing went yet another place and did their own thing important to that area, and the campaign as a whole.

Breton 792927 10956198 wrote:

You're forgetting there is only one church. The Cardinals and Governors will be unhappy because of a loss of power a dystopian corrupt bureaucracy not denominational things.

Tell that to the greek ortodox and ortodox. Or the wars between different schools in judaism. Or what Persians mulachs thing about those in Saudia Arabia. Or what Indian Buddists thought about Chinese ones, and then what the Chinese thought about the ones from isle of Japan. In a church the structural power is inseparable from the denominational doctrin. What ever is a great synod in w40k, accepts that there are rite differences inside the church is normal. The catholic bishop in Poland is not going to care that much what a bishop in France says or does, with very few exeption. But try to make a independed from the official church structures thing, you will find huge opposition. Try stepping out from your area of expertise and the same happens. The church doesn't have to like or dislike the SoB, they have a place in the structure. But if SoB convent members suddenly decided that want to decide matters of faith or the governing of the faithful without the consent of the synod, even a symbolic one, there would be out right war and excomunications flying around. It would be as if the fleet or imperial army priesthood suddenly decided to involve themselfs in to matters of local planetary church. Try to do something like that and that is why we don't have the oldschool Jesuits anymore.

Shadowsun is the suppreme commander of the Tau Empire so she qualifies.


And about the Swarmlord, the Nightbringer received masive buffs without a new model so it is a possibility for him to become much more powerfull rule-wise and becoming a suppreme commander. Not like it is needed with him being able to be of any hive fleet but...

Can we maybe NOT let this descend into an argument on real-life sexism in politics...?

Wait, what? No one was talking about that.

PenitentJake wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Are you holding out for a hero, mrFickle?

Just someone who can do this presentation for me

I am.

But he's gotta be strong
And he's gotta be fast
And he's gotta be larger than life.

(That's right, when someone misses an 80's pop culture reference, you can always count on me to pick it up)

I'm glad a few of you picked up on it

 Kanluwen wrote:
Macaroth's dead anyways. Been dead for a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.

Only a factor if you think the "modern" timeline is where any character has to reside. Dead characters being a thing is nothing new - after all, look at the last Warmaster the IG had access to.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The biggest and best thing we can hope for right now is that Guilliman gets a bee in his bonnet and reorganizes the Imperial Army to be a thing. Specialist Regiments like Catachans, Tallarn, etc could be represented better that way as actual dedicated unit types specializing in terrain/cover setups.

No. Just no.

What the IG need is for the Miniature design team to collectively see a proctologist, then get some modern plastic Infantry sorted out.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Also don't know how you'd leave the Characters from each regiment like Straken, Harker, and Creed.

Well, Creed's in a stasis prison somewhere, with his bodyguard bro being dead. I don't think the last IG book mentioned anything as to Straken or Harker's current status, though.

 Blndmage wrote:
Poor GSC

I suspect they need some "vanilla" special characters before they have to worry about a SUPREME COMMANDER - maybe in their next wave?

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Swarmlord should be the Tyranid one

From currently available units? Maybe - but this seems the perfect time to introduce a reimagined Dominatrix

 Kanluwen wrote:
The function of Supreme Commander isn't to lead 'a force of Iron Hands'. It's to let you take a character without it messing with your main FOC.

I'd say that at the moment it seems a little hasty to predict the purpose of the detachment/keyword, aside from how it allows you to field RG/Morty/Maggie a bit more easily.

As someone said, the BA/DA/SW supplements may give some form of a hint there, with how Dante/Azrael/Logan get treated in terms of keywords (yes, I know they didn't get it in the Index).

 Lance845 wrote:
I would like to see a new Swarm Lord and a Norn Queen.

I'm pretty sure the Norn Queens are only ship-mounted, with the Dominatrix as the ultimate planetside representative, though I could be wrong on that.

They might want to change that unit name, admittedly.

 Jidmah wrote:
Shadowsun is female.

I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time this user has been called out for misgendering Shadowsun.

Karol wrote:

Breton 792927 10956198 wrote:

You're forgetting there is only one church. The Cardinals and Governors will be unhappy because of a loss of power a dystopian corrupt bureaucracy not denominational things.

Tell that to the greek ortodox and ortodox. Or the wars between different schools in judaism. Or what Persians mulachs thing about those in Saudia Arabia. Or what Indian Buddists thought about Chinese ones, and then what the Chinese thought about the ones from isle of Japan. In a church the structural power is inseparable from the denominational doctrin. What ever is a great synod in w40k, accepts that there are rite differences inside the church is normal. The catholic bishop in Poland is not going to care that much what a bishop in France says or does, with very few exeption. But try to make a independed from the official church structures thing, you will find huge opposition. Try stepping out from your area of expertise and the same happens. The church doesn't have to like or dislike the SoB, they have a place in the structure. But if SoB convent members suddenly decided that want to decide matters of faith or the governing of the faithful without the consent of the synod, even a symbolic one, there would be out right war and excomunications flying around. It would be as if the fleet or imperial army priesthood suddenly decided to involve themselfs in to matters of local planetary church. Try to do something like that and that is why we don't have the oldschool Jesuits anymore.

The issue that you are having is that you are confusing the real world with the 40K universe. Celestine is not viewed in the 40K lore as Joan of Arc is or was viewed by real world people. Celestine is "a living embodiment of the God-Emperor's might." She arrives unexpectedly when her presence is deemed necessary by the Emperor to act on his behalf. People are not worried about taking orders from her because they think she is moving in on their turf. "The faithful are filled with strength and courage by [her] presence, even as the heretics recoil in terror." Her arrival does not create conflict with individual church leaders or anything like that in the lore. She is not divisive like people who claim divine inspiration here in the real world because in the 40K lore everyone knows that she is the physical embodiment of the Emperor's might.

I think locking a detachment behind a named character is a poor move. Hope this will get revised eventually.

They can make up a new Ethereal Supreme to replace the now canonically dead Aun'va. Give him a big floating throne with a fleet of 10 drones providing shields and guns.

Norn Queens haven't been in the fluff officially for several editions. The closest thing to a reference we get in 6th is the Norn Crown bioartifact. They can make Norn Queens into anything they want at this stage.

 Argive wrote:
I think locking a detachment behind a named character is a poor move. Hope this will get revised eventually.

I think the mistake is the extra character slot. You get three HQ's, plus one more beatstick or a LOW if you do this Det, if you don't do this Det, you get... 3 HQ's. Some Armies just won't get one anyway - Knights are not going to get a Supreme Commander. GSC is unlikely. Nids I'm on the fence. Most SM Chapters aren't going to get one. (Well I should say right away - when people figure it out and start squealing GW will have to retcon some nameds and keywords.

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
The issue that you are having is that you are confusing the real world with the 40K universe. Celestine is not viewed in the 40K lore as Joan of Arc is or was viewed by real world people. Celestine is "a living embodiment of the God-Emperor's might." She arrives unexpectedly when her presence is deemed necessary by the Emperor to act on his behalf. People are not worried about taking orders from her because they think she is moving in on their turf. "The faithful are filled with strength and courage by [her] presence, even as the heretics recoil in terror." Her arrival does not create conflict with individual church leaders or anything like that in the lore. She is not divisive like people who claim divine inspiration here in the real world because in the 40K lore everyone knows that she is the physical embodiment of the Emperor's might.

The Imperium is full of corrupt, hypocritical backstabbers and sociopaths, though. I'm sure there are plenty who despise her.