As we know a good 75% of the Eldar model range is old, very old.
How old you ask? Well....
Most of the Aspect Warriors apart from Dire Avengers and Howling Banshees, were released in metal way back in 2006.
14 years old. A hell of a long time. Then were then converted to resin. But still, the same models.
But wait, it gets worse. Warp Spiders, the Avatar and all of the Phoenix Lords (aprat from Jain Zar) were released in metal back in 1994.
Yep thats right. These models haven't been updated for 26 years!
I have to wonder what on earth GW plans to do with this army.
I can't really undersatnd why they would let parts of it go almost 30 years without an update.
We had one Phoenix Lord and one Aspect Warrior squad updated randomly last year.
Then nothing. At least so far.
If this is the pace GW is updating the Eldar at, I will be an old man before they finish.
Any thoughts, predictions, insight?
Will Eldar get a big update? Will they be quietly removed from the game at some point?
Or will they languish with 30 year old models with no update?
dan2026 wrote: As we know a good 75% of the Eldar model range is old, very old.
How old you ask? Well....
Most of the Aspect Warriors apart from Dire Avengers and Howling Banshees, were released in metal way back in 2006.
14 years old. A hell of a long time. Then were then converted to resin. But still, the same models.
But wait, it gets worse. Warp Spiders, the Avatar and all of the Phoenix Lords (aprat from Jain Zar) were released in metal back in 1994.
Yep thats right. These models haven't been updated for 26 years!
I have to wonder what on earth GW plans to do with this army.
I can't really undersatnd why they would let parts of it go almost 30 years without an update.
We had one Phoenix Lord and one Aspect Warrior squad updated randomly last year.
Then nothing. At least so far.
If this is the pace GW is updating the Eldar at, I will be an old man before they finish.
Any thoughts, predictions, insight?
Will Eldar get a big update? Will they be quietly removed from the game at some point?
Or will they languish with 30 year old models with no update?
You and me will be retired old men before they update the Falcon chassis tanks. I wouldn't surprise if those tanks make it 30 or even 40 years in age before they get a real update (not a facelift). Aspect Warriors however (some of them) will probably get updates in 2021, because it fits with GW's design philosophy for 9th. They'll be core and attractively costed, so the idea will be to make every single support vehicle and unit largely useless and unable to use auras and psychic powers and other force multipliers, while the new shiny core units will get everything. They'll probably do some re-imagining also to sell more, meaning for example making the models much bigger and on bigger bases, rendering the old models invalid so they can basically sell entirely new competitive armies even to people who own ten thousand points of Eldar already.
TLR: Updating existing models is a harder sell than just making new models for new units or even new factions, so they'll only update Eldar when there's absolutely no other choice left to them.
Honestly, it's a bit weird as IMHOGW sends some somewhat mixed signals re Eldar.
What do I mean by "mixed signals"? well, let's take a look at two "big events" for a moment. namely Psykic Awakening and The Gathering Storm, these where both "big end of the edition" events. where GW published several books detailing campaigns yadda yadda. the reason I'm focusing on this is because in both TGS and PA Eldar where featured as "stand alone" this indicates a fair degree of support AND confidance in Eldar in general, as they're offered stand alone, and aren't bundled with an Imperial army (let alone a space marine army) this indicates a strong sense that eldar are finanically popular eneugh to "stand on their own" but at the same time, yeaah GW doesn't seem to be inclined to update the army and they languish with ancient models, one would think Eldar aren't a money maker,
dan2026 wrote: I assume Eldar aren't a money maker.
But who is going to start an army with ancient models, most of which can only be bought directly from GW.
If Eldar got a big range revamp, I bet sales of them would increase dramatically.
As I bet the sales of Necron stuff is now.
Like can you honestly recommend anyone start an Eldar army now?
This is how I see it too, people clearly haven't forgotten about the Eldar so it's GW's self-created problem, and it's why I hope they get a massive refresh this edition. They've already proved it with Sisters who went even longer without any fresh models and still sold like hotcakes.
dan2026 wrote: I assume Eldar aren't a money maker.
But who is going to start an army with ancient models, most of which can only be bought directly from GW.
If Eldar got a big range revamp, I bet sales of them would increase dramatically.
As I bet the sales of Necron stuff is now.
Like can you honestly recommend anyone start an Eldar army now?
This is how I see it too, people clearly haven't forgotten about the Eldar so it's GW's self-created problem, and it's why I hope they get a massive refresh this edition. They've already proved it with Sisters who went even longer without any fresh models and still sold like hotcakes.
You call this a self-created problem. But what if GW doesn't see it as such? What if Eldar sales are at acceptable lvs?
Sure, the range has sculpts older than some of you. And a lot of fine cast. But as long as the sales #s are alright theres no hurry to revamp them, allowing resources to be dedicated to other projects
greatbigtree wrote: I guess my question would be... why update them? The models *still* look good... my personal misgivings to the warp spiders aside.
The vehicles look good, the wraith units look good. I can’t think of anything that looks bad.
They’re a well designed army, they have a handful of unique units in each FOC slot... they feel pretty complete to me.
Well I mean the big one is the fact that they are all made of Finecast resin now.
That in of itself is a problem.
And even if they were still in metal, I'd bet most people would want plastic kits, including me.
As they are much easier to build and paint.
GW themselves only want to make plastic kits now and have done for a good 10 years or more.
And to be honest I think even Guardians are looking very rough these days. Even if they are in plastic.
greatbigtree wrote: I guess my question would be... why update them? The models *still* look good... my personal misgivings to the warp spiders aside.
The vehicles look good, the wraith units look good. I can’t think of anything that looks bad.
They’re a well designed army, they have a handful of unique units in each FOC slot... they feel pretty complete to me.
Marines have been complete for 20 years but that never stopped GW from making new kits and updating older ones.
I didn't want to say it, but there is this.
Marines have currently almost completed their 2nd complete plastic army, while they already had a complete plastic army.
While 75% of the Eldar range hasn't even made the jump to plastic yet.
Its bizarre and embarrasing.
Is to compensate for what is happening in age of sigmar. In Age of sigmar almost half of all the available factions are elfs, or aelves. Probably all the elders souls, and pro elder GW designers are put on to keep the aelves invasion of the mortal realms. Till age of sigmar is not 80% just aelves I don't think that they will begin to update the 40 K eldar range, and when this happens be prepare as the elder invasion of the 40 K galaxy will begin.
psipso wrote: Is to compensate for what is happening in age of sigmar. In Age of sigmar almost half of all the available factions are elfs, or aelves. Probably all the elders souls, and pro elder GW designers are put on to keep the aelves invasion of the mortal realms. Till age of sigmar is not 80% just aelves I don't think that they will begin to update the 40 K eldar range, and when this happens be prepare as the elder invasion of the 40 K galaxy will begin.
Kanluwen wrote: I love how the answer can't simply be "they've been taking their time and it's a labor of love for the sculptors working on it".
Because Goodwin has said he's involved with it. Dude does not work fast.
I'd love this to be true as well, so yes please, put the source! I'm a big fan of Goodwin's design work.
greatbigtree wrote: I guess my question would be... why update them? The models *still* look good... my personal misgivings to the warp spiders aside.
The vehicles look good, the wraith units look good. I can’t think of anything that looks bad.
They’re a well designed army, they have a handful of unique units in each FOC slot... they feel pretty complete to me.
You've focused on the units that exist in plastic kits... most people don't have issues with the vehicles or wraith units at all, I know I don't. They're also the more recent models to have been updated.
The big bugbears are the Aspect Warriors (aside from Howling Banshees and Dire Avengers), Phoenix Lords, Warlocks and the Avatar.
Dire Avengers aren't too bad, but Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks, Fire Dragons and Warp Spiders are all fixed-pose with little variation between them, and very flat compared to more modern kits. Meanwhile the Phoenix Lords, Warlocks and Avatar all date back to second edition, and it shows. Not just in the model size and style, but again looking flat thanks to the metal casting processes used at the time.
...it's telling that the 'Start Collecting' box for Craftworlds consists of the one available plastic Farseer and a bunch of wraith units, when that only fits the fluff for craftworld Iyanden - the box should be a representation of that faction's core force, which for Craftworlds should be a mix of Guardians and Aspect Warriors.
He briefly mentions that Aeldari are something he'd been working on during the Mechanicus flyer/cavalry/whatever interviews for Voxcast. Doesn't say what he was working on, just that is what it was.
Darren Latham promptly switched the subject and Goodwin 'focused' again on AdMech.
Its telling that GW don't use images of the old resin/metal Aspect Warriors in any promotional stuff.
They don't put them in the collection boxes or battle forces.
They barely refer to them in anything. Its always Wraith units, jetbikes and vehicles.
They don't want to show them or sell them, they almost seem embarrased by them.
And yet we are still waiting fot 90% of them to be updated.
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Kanluwen wrote: He briefly mentions that Aeldari are something he'd been working on during the Mechanicus flyer/cavalry/whatever interviews for Voxcast. Doesn't say what he was working on, just that is what it was.
Darren Latham promptly switched the subject and Goodwin 'focused' again on AdMech.
I think craftworlds must sell well enough if you can judge it by the number of data sheets they have. Even forgeworld have released quite a few models. Why the aspects have continually been ignored I can't explain though especially when units like support weapons get updated.
There must be a big refresh coming, just a question of when.
I’d say that if they aren’t being refreshed, they probably sell fine as-is? While I’m not a fan of finecast, I don’t feel there’s anything fundamentally wrong with the models.
For me, they’ve stood the test of time. There isn’t something that needs fixing, in my opinion.
I'm pretty sure it's going to be a big edition for Eldar and DE; I feel like it's all going to drop together over 1-3 months.
A Vs. box for 2021 could include Eldar, DE or a mix vs. an Imperial faction.
A kill team box may include an Eldar KT (Plastic Scorpions please).
So much depends on what that first Xeno book will be. I think the KT reboot is Q1 as well; we don't know for sure that it's getting a box- it could just be a book. But if we do get a box, synergizing with that Xeno release over Q1 would be sweet.
I hope we get word on what the Xeno release is soon.
Based on the PA storylines, we should be seeing a big focus on Aeldari (especially Ynnari) in the near future.
Yvraine said to Ephrael Stern that she would return to help fight the new threat (Necrons) and both warp spiders and striking scorpions were present in the brief stories inside PA books (including possibly a Warp Spider Phx Lord). We have also seen Scorpions in a new animated clip. Finally, there is also the fact that the banshee kit emphasized the Ynnari heads inside, even though they currently have no difference in game.
I would bet hard cash that we are getting new Eldar miniatures this edition, including Spiders and Scorpions (probably a lot more).
It could be that GW will start the ball rolling with Codex Ynnari in January, and go from there.
Using the genestealer as an example, the codex would take a selection of units from the three primary factions and give them new datasheets so that they perform differently from their faction-specific counterparts. This alone would remove the need for a Ynnari player to purchase multiple codices and supplements. Codex writers could then write those units with their factions in mind, rather than trying to make them compatible with both.
And its high time Ynnari players were allowed to select any unit from the Ynnari roster for a detachment - none of this "Reborn" detachment nonsense that limits a Ynnari combat patrol to only a single eldar faction( such as a "Reborn Drukhari" patrol ).
Pulled off correctly, it'll lead nicely into an overhaul of the Craftworld and Drukhari ranges.
dan2026 wrote: It is a bit funny and sad that the first named Harlequin character models can't be used by Harlequins.
RIGHT XD... I am a big Harlie fan,,, I was super disappointed XD.
Want new models ? Join IOM scrubs
On topic.. I really don't expect much of anything from GW.. I have accumulated enough metal aspects now through painstaking ebay buys. However I'm not going to buy any more of the Phoenix lords even in metal. I have a magun ra coz he was dirt cheap and I like him. But the others are just so ugly...
That said, I would LOVE new swooping hawks above anything because that's the one kit I cant commit to in metal due to the wings and I have vowed not to buy a single fine-cast thing again.. I had to make a ajanky gakky looking GS cable and graft it to the model to conenct illics rifle to his back-back coz the fail-cast model has a gap once you glue it together..
I do really like the FW range stuff. Got a couple wraith seers, and got a squad of shadow specters which were by far my favourite units of 8th edition.
GW needs to take a leaf out of Artels book on how to make good aspect sculpt.
When you put Jain Zar next to all the other 24 year old Phoenix Lords, they look embarrasingly bad.
They are conpletely out of proportion and don't fit in at all with the other Eldar models.
dan2026 wrote: When you put Jain Zar next to all the other 24 year old Phoenix Lords, they look embarrasingly bad.
They are conpletely out of proportion and don't fit in at all with the other Eldar models.
Honestly I'm surprised GW is still selling them.
They were nice sculpts for their time, but yes they are in dire need of an update. Speaking of things that are dire...
Given that Dire Avengers already have a fabulous plastic kit, they should have an updated Asurmen to accompany them.
dan2026 wrote: When you put Jain Zar next to all the other 24 year old Phoenix Lords, they look embarrasingly bad.
They are conpletely out of proportion and don't fit in at all with the other Eldar models.
Honestly I'm surprised GW is still selling them.
Probably also has to do with the pricing...
2 banshee boxes are afterall a full SC box.
dan2026 wrote: When you put Jain Zar next to all the other 24 year old Phoenix Lords, they look embarrasingly bad.
They are conpletely out of proportion and don't fit in at all with the other Eldar models.
Honestly I'm surprised GW is still selling them.
They were nice sculpts for their time, but yes they are in dire need of an update. Speaking of things that are dire...
Given that Dire Avengers already have a fabulous plastic kit, they should have an updated Asurmen to accompany them.
Their time was over two decages ago lol.
They have to be the oldest models GW is still selling. Or very close to it.
dan2026 wrote: When you put Jain Zar next to all the other 24 year old Phoenix Lords, they look embarrasingly bad.
They are conpletely out of proportion and don't fit in at all with the other Eldar models.
Honestly I'm surprised GW is still selling them.
Probably also has to do with the pricing...
2 banshee boxes are afterall a full SC box.
I bought two banshee boxes recently.
Gorgeous models, but yeah even with 20% off, no man could ever call them cheap.
dan2026 wrote: When you put Jain Zar next to all the other 24 year old Phoenix Lords, they look embarrasingly bad.
They are conpletely out of proportion and don't fit in at all with the other Eldar models.
Honestly I'm surprised GW is still selling them.
They were nice sculpts for their time, but yes they are in dire need of an update. Speaking of things that are dire...
Given that Dire Avengers already have a fabulous plastic kit, they should have an updated Asurmen to accompany them.
DA kit is hardly fabulous. It is full of missing detail, like on the top of the helmet crests; something the 24yo Asurmen has. The kit is badly in need of an update as it was one of those kits made during when GW was just getting the hang of CAD and it shows.
A lot of the old plastics are showing their age. Just the sprue layout could be a lot tighter, and the mold lines and soft detail stand out compared to a modern kit.
With the way they pack spues full of stuff these days, they could fit the WS/Falcon/NS/FP all into one box without issue. Or add all the bits for the assault guardians into the kit with the defenders.
The pilots of the older stuff are also in the older outfits, and don’t match the modern range. Not a huge deal, but it’s there.
After having to carve my own Fire Dragons out of the blob of resin, and straighten/fix the rifles on my rangers multiple times, I’ve sworn off finecast. Admittedly, that was early days, and I hear it’s gotten better. But the material does not suit the nature of Eldar models. I’m waiting for plastic, and picked up a box of banshees, even at the ludicrous price, to let GW know they would sell. And I really wanted them (even if they kinda suck)
The range is visually excellent, but very old. It does not need a revamp, just a refresh using modern techniques and in plastic.
Ideally, the range gets a total refresh, which is something we may or may not see based on Necrons and Sisters with their range revamp.
I would love the grav tanks to be retooled to include their missing options and upgrades that are scattered on several sprues to make it easier for people who don't have massive collections already.
Personally, as long as they improve the writing surrounding Ynnari both for the rules and fluff, or just remove them completely, I'd be happy enough as long as we got some updated aspect warriors,rangers and vypers.
I do think that GW need to really think about how they market Eldar going forward, in theory, Blood of the Phoenix was a great start for a Ynnari army box but failed badly from poor unit choices and ludicrous pricing. They'll really have to work on making future boxes and individual units affordable, otherwise, those 1994 Warp Spiders I have will be be perfectly fine.
DA kit is hardly fabulous. It is full of missing detail, like on the top of the helmet crests; something the 24yo Asurmen has. The kit is badly in need of an update as it was one of those kits made during when GW was just getting the hang of CAD and it shows.
Have to hand it to you as that is a fair observation; indeed, they do not have the bristle heads and that is on the GW site's images.
I've actually held the finished models and they certainly did not lack that certain detail. I can only assume my friend had done some sculpting before hand.
Crikey, now you mention it...the Exarch's eyes on the website don't seem to match up either?
It is one of things that put me off buying any when they came out (plus the fact they don't look distinct enough from Guardians to me, whist the metal ones did). Didn't fancy having the resculpt the hair on all of them.
I've always considered Craftworld Eldar to be one of the key 40k factions.
I'm not sure why to be honest. Maybe it was because they were one of the playable factions in the first Dawn of War.
But their lack of model support for GW is nothing short of baffling.
Now Sisters have had their redo, I'd say they must be the most undersupported faction in the game.
I see Forgeworld has now dropped support for Eldar Corsairs as well.
Grimtuff wrote: It is one of things that put me off buying any when they came out (plus the fact they don't look distinct enough from Guardians to me, whist the metal ones did). Didn't fancy having the resculpt the hair on all of them.
I personally would not have a problem whipping out some milliput and a cocktail stick....but dammit its staring me right in the face now!
DA kit is hardly fabulous. It is full of missing detail, like on the top of the helmet crests; something the 24yo Asurmen has. The kit is badly in need of an update as it was one of those kits made during when GW was just getting the hang of CAD and it shows.
Have to hand it to you as that is a fair observation; indeed, they do not have the bristle heads and that is on the GW site's images.
I've actually held the finished models and they certainly did not lack that certain detail. I can only assume my friend had done some sculpting before hand.
Crikey, now you mention it...the Exarch's eyes on the website don't seem to match up either?
Umm... ok, something's gone wonky here. I have an (admittedly older, probably 5th ed) squad of plastic Dire Avengers and they most definitely have the head bristles. It sounds to me like your friend has the proper models.
The version of the sprues showing on the GW page is what I have, as well.
What Grimtuff may have originally meant, was the crest not being as detailed as the Asurmen model's, e.g. the bristles aren't as well defined - which is a valid criticism.
Umm... ok, something's gone wonky here. I have an (admittedly older, probably 5th ed) squad of plastic Dire Avengers and they most definitely have the head bristles. It sounds to me like your friend has the proper models.
The version of the sprues showing on the GW page is what I have, as well.
What Grimtuff may have originally meant, was the crest not being as detailed as the Asurmen model's, e.g. the bristles aren't as well defined - which is a valid criticism.
Definitely the kit on the website.
There was one before those which basically used the guardian sprues, and I think they just slapped a metal avenger head on it. That was going waaaaay back though.
.... I’ve sworn off finecast. Admittedly, that was early days, and I hear it’s gotten better.
Im afraid it has not gotten any better at all.
Finecast would be fine if GW would design their models for finecast; while they've ironed out some of the quality issues it's still too brittle for Eldar minis designed in metal. Big chunky finecast models without skinny bits (any Space Marine, for instance) tend to work fine.
.... I’ve sworn off finecast. Admittedly, that was early days, and I hear it’s gotten better.
Im afraid it has not gotten any better at all.
Finecast would be fine if GW would design their models for finecast; while they've ironed out some of the quality issues it's still too brittle for Eldar minis designed in metal. Big chunky finecast models without skinny bits (any Space Marine, for instance) tend to work fine.
Thats quite possible. I dont mind the the FW resin although its not perfect it seems like miles better than failcast. Even small infantry sized things like shadow spectres with complex ribbons dont look gakky. All I know it just doesn't work despite giving it opportunity after opportunity.. At this stage I wouldn't risk my hard earned ££ on any more failcast of any ilk.
Out of curiosity Are there any kits designed for fine-cast that are not straight ports from metals ?
I recently got a second hand metal NIB emperors champion for a painting project although marine, I still wouldn't feel confident buying a new fine-cast one.
greatbigtree wrote: I’d say that if they aren’t being refreshed, they probably sell fine as-is? While I’m not a fan of finecast, I don’t feel there’s anything fundamentally wrong with the models.
For me, they’ve stood the test of time. There isn’t something that needs fixing, in my opinion.
I think I can agree with this, for the most part. Even though the materials are dated several of the models are still -fine- sculpts, you just have to put up with inferior quality.
The wave serpent, falcon, prism, and vyper are all fine too, they have aged very well.
Jetbikes are ok, but really could do with a resculpt. They're very basic and do look very bland and dated.
Guardians are in the same boat. The models are just embarassingly bland.
So at worst, I would hope for new guardians / basic infantry options, and new jetbikes.
The biggest issue with Eldar are the rules. They're all pretty much terrible. And the problem there is that GW only ever seems to put effort into a rules set, for new models/units that they are trying to sell. Which I think is why people are pushing for all eldar units to get updated to plastic - maybe then the phoenix lords and aspects will no longer be among the worst units in the game.
Niiru wrote: Jetbikes are ok, but really could do with a resculpt. They're very basic and do look very bland and dated.
Jetbikes had a resculpt during what, 7th edition? It's why we have plastic Warlock/Farseer on Jetbike options.
The real mystery is why Shining Spears didn't get redone at the same time...
I recall the HQ jetbike options but didn't think the normal jetbike squad got updates, or shining spears. But I may be wrong. Though the bikes still look pretty bland compared to reavers / skyweavers.
Niiru wrote: Jetbikes are ok, but really could do with a resculpt. They're very basic and do look very bland and dated.
Jetbikes had a resculpt during what, 7th edition? It's why we have plastic Warlock/Farseer on Jetbike options.
The real mystery is why Shining Spears didn't get redone at the same time...
I recall the HQ jetbike options but didn't think the normal jetbike squad got updates, or shining spears. But I may be wrong. Though the bikes still look pretty bland compared to reavers / skyweavers.
Look at the Shining Spears, and compare the bike/rider to the Windriders - the latter are on the newer jetbikes, while the former still use the original plastic Jetbike as a base.
That's why them not getting an upgrade at the same time made little sense - you've managed to end up in a situation where both plastic bikes are in production for the entire duration of 8th, as well as however much of 7th the new bike was around for.
The jetbikes are a bizarre thing in that, the model was essentially done and ready for sale in 2010, but wasn't actually sold until 2015. For 5 years they sat on it and didn't release it and by the time it did release, the kit already looked a little dated.
Niiru wrote: Jetbikes are ok, but really could do with a resculpt. They're very basic and do look very bland and dated.
Jetbikes had a resculpt during what, 7th edition? It's why we have plastic Warlock/Farseer on Jetbike options.
The real mystery is why Shining Spears didn't get redone at the same time...
I recall the HQ jetbike options but didn't think the normal jetbike squad got updates, or shining spears. But I may be wrong. Though the bikes still look pretty bland compared to reavers / skyweavers.
Eldar bikes are significantly newer than reavers - 7th I think vs 5th. That said IIRC the initial design was done about the same time - Jes Goodwin was showing 3–up prototypes of the Eldar bikes at Games Day even before the reavers came out, it’s just other things kept getting prioritised (e.g. I recall Jes saying in an interview at one point he had the choice of wraithguard or bikes and he chose the former as they were still in metal while the bikes were at least plastic, albeit from 2nd and with the old style of guardian armour).
dan2026 wrote: You'd think they'd at least do a plastic Avatar, so they could sell a pricey big monster kit.
I know there is the Forgeworld one, but still.
This is one update that would be of great benefit to Games Workshop; a single plastic kit with the option of either a sword or a spear. Similar to the Sylvaneth Treelord.
If CWE got a fundamental re-write, and nu-Avatar+loads of foot-Aspect Warriors became viable, dare I say competitive, then I'd be in again.
But I just feel you're going to be offered to replace those fire dragons you bought in 1998 with models that are slightly taller, cost about £40 for a box of 5, and still fundamentally don't work. See all Striking Scorpions and probably Swooping Hawks.
Reapers, Spears and Spiders have at least been good over the last 5 years (Spiders subsequently not so much). But this in turn means anyone playing Eldar in recent history has probably bitten the bullet and bought them.
I lost faith in GW when dark elder and cwe became allies.
Srsly... head splitting brontodung right there.
That and taudar.
Of course cwe needs new models but redoing the range also requires consistent and coherent vision.
I think that GW thinks that no matter how poorly they design space marine units and wreck the established understanding of what it means, they Will still be able to sell some marines. For instance that restartes go cart.
I think that GW knows that this is not the case with cwe. GW can mess this up so badly that nobody over 12 will want to buy them unless they like the models only and can forget their horrendous conceptualization or they want to spam scatter laser bikes or whatever
Well Jain Zar and the new Banshees look amazing.
So I have no worries about the other Aspects looking great in plastic.
GW just need to freaking do it.
Necrons have just had their huge update, now Eldar need one.
For the past decade they have needed it.
kryczek wrote: Wraith Aspects is what I'm after, or at least something totally new but I expect Dark Reapers and Maugan Ra next.
I really hope a Wraith Aspect doesn't happen, actually. It'd be a fluff paradox - Wraith units are essentially the last gasp, desperate measures approach to making the dead fight again - whereas the various Aspect shrines are supposed to be a Path for the living to embark on, but hopefully drop when they choose another Path. It's a contradiction for Wraiths to be presented as such a choice.
About the only way I could see this working, is if it's a Ynnari-specific unit. If that were the case, I'd be all for it.
I really don't understand what GWs plan is for Ynnari.
They made a big thing about it, released a load of characters, then um I dont know.
The new Banshees have unmasked alternate Ynnari heads, so I guess they are still doing something with it.
They should do a proper Ynnari codex supplement.
And that would be a good reason to finish updating the Aspect Warriors.
As they would be able to be played in two different army lists.
dan2026 wrote: I really don't understand what GWs plan is for Ynnari.
They made a big thing about it, released a load of characters, then um I dont know.
The new Banshees have unmasked alternate Ynnari heads, so I guess they are still doing something with it.
They should do a proper Ynnari codex supplement.
And that would be a good reason to finish updating the Aspect Warriors.
As they would be able to be played in two different army lists.
Ynnari should just get folded into the CWE codex. Make Ynnari a craftworld trait, and that's it. No HQ requirement (eg. you can be ynnari using just a normal farseer if you want) and all CWE units can be fielded with them.
There is nothing about Ynnari anymore which is any more special or unique than any other craftworld trait. Theirs is worse than most.
So many of you have heard me say this before- I say it in every conversation that involves Ynarri, but I looked back and I haven't said it in this one yet. So here goes: The best way to release a Ynarri dex is to fill it up with Corsair and Exodite Reborn units. Then WD can release mini-dexes for fielding Corsair stand-alones and Exodite stand-alones.
This way CWE and DE players don't have to worry about Ynarri punking our units. With Lelith on the way, and it's already in the fluff that she works with Ynarri, I can't express how worried I am that GW is going to take her from us. I feared the same about JZ and the Banshees; it didn't happen in 8th, but that doesn't mean we're out of the woods yet. I don't want Eldar to become all one faction. Having the option to play that way is great, but I want each of the subfactions to maintain their identities so that mono DE or mono CWE still feel "right". The Ynarri + Corsair + Exodite solution is elegant because it gives us something many Aeldari players of all stripes have actually wanted for nine editions, without destroying the thing they gave us even though no one ever asked for it. Best of all, it won't destroy the 2.5 awesome factions we already have, which many of us love.
Now that the soap box goes away, I can talk about a few other posts in this thread. I'm not a master Eldar player, but I think there are some misunderstandings.
Back at the end of page 1, SeamusDrake said that it's time Ynarri players didn't have to choose between CWE, DE and Harlies. As I understand it, Ynarri players can already do this- you can include Reborns of any stripe in the same Ynarri detachment.
At the end of page 2, Jeff White says he lost faith in GW when CWE and DE became allies. I'm not sure that's what actually happened; I think that the Ynarri showed up and some DE and some CWE decided to ally with them; those who did, by necessity, allied with each other to further the Ynarri agenda.
I could be wrong; I may also have misinterpreted the two posters I've quoted.
dan2026 wrote: As we know a good 75% of the Eldar model range is old, very old.
How old you ask? Well....
Most of the Aspect Warriors apart from Dire Avengers and Howling Banshees, were released in metal way back in 2006.
14 years old. A hell of a long time. Then were then converted to resin. But still, the same models.
But wait, it gets worse. Warp Spiders, the Avatar and all of the Phoenix Lords (aprat from Jain Zar) were released in metal back in 1994.
Yep thats right. These models haven't been updated for 26 years!
I have to wonder what on earth GW plans to do with this army.
I can't really undersatnd why they would let parts of it go almost 30 years without an update.
We had one Phoenix Lord and one Aspect Warrior squad updated randomly last year.
Then nothing. At least so far.
If this is the pace GW is updating the Eldar at, I will be an old man before they finish.
Any thoughts, predictions, insight?
Will Eldar get a big update? Will they be quietly removed from the game at some point?
Or will they languish with 30 year old models with no update?
The future of the Eldar model range is Artel W. at this point.
Back at the end of page 1, SeamusDrake said that it's time Ynarri players didn't have to choose between CWE, DE and Harlies. As I understand it, Ynarri players can already do this- you can include Reborns of any stripe in the same Ynarri detachment.
What? Seamus is here now? Come out you slimely toad and face me like a man dammit!! Its time to settle this once and for all!
Seriously though, that sounds great but I've been advised otherwise - which is why I went with Harlequins instead. Was this changed in Phoenix Rising?
PenitentJake wrote: So many of you have heard me say this before- I say it in every conversation that involves Ynarri, but I looked back and I haven't said it in this one yet. So here goes: The best way to release a Ynarri dex is to fill it up with Corsair and Exodite Reborn units. Then WD can release mini-dexes for fielding Corsair stand-alones and Exodite stand-alones.
I honestly think that's a terrible idea. That's two more eldar model lines when they haven't even updated or finished Craftworlds or Dark. That's going to make the situation worse, not better.
More disjointed, more hodgepodge, more problems with external and internal balance, and doesn't actually fix anything for anyone who already has armies or wants to start one.
PenitentJake wrote: Back at the end of page 1, SeamusDrake said that it's time Ynarri players didn't have to choose between CWE, DE and Harlies. As I understand it, Ynarri players can already do this- you can include Reborns of any stripe in the same Ynarri detachment.
Technically, you're correct. But you lose so much from being either pure CWE or DE, that the Ynarri rules just plain don't make up for. My understanding (which could be wrong) is that Harlies don't actually lose any of their rules by becoming Ynnari - but having to take the special characters is still a whopping points tax that they function just fine without.
PenitentJake wrote: Back at the end of page 1, SeamusDrake said that it's time Ynarri players didn't have to choose between CWE, DE and Harlies. As I understand it, Ynarri players can already do this- you can include Reborns of any stripe in the same Ynarri detachment.
Technically, you're correct. But you lose so much from being either pure CWE or DE, that the Ynarri rules just plain don't make up for. My understanding (which could be wrong) is that Harlies don't actually lose any of their rules by becoming Ynnari - but having to take the special characters is still a whopping points tax that they function just fine without.
So for example, we can currently have a patrol detachment that contains a Shadowseer, Kabalites and a Warwalker? Is that legal?
Yeh. One way to make ynnari worth while and useable is to have good rules baked into the individual data sheets and not rely on army traits/Pseudo doctrines/ Psychic.
Little things like not being able to take exarch powers from PA... Like why?
Argive wrote: Yeh. One way to make ynnari worth while and useable is to have good rules baked into the individual data sheets and not rely on army traits/Pseudo doctrines/ Psychic.
Little things like not being able to take exarch powers from PA... Like why?
not to mention the ONE guy who I want to have ynari powers (the solitaire) banned XD.
My prediction is either that GW will take a huge risk and update massively the Eldar model range by remaking pretty much all their units except maybe some of their tanks, walkers and wraith units.
The safer option on the short term is to punt the problem ahead by remaking a few units here and their, while adding a new thing like a new special character and bloating further the model line of the eldars and letting people take harder decisions in 5-10 years.
The third option is basically making a big reboot a la Primaris Marines of the Craftworld brand, using the Ynnari storyline, remaking a lot of units and replacing many others.
SamusDrake wrote: So for example, we can currently have a patrol detachment that contains a Shadowseer, Kabalites and a Warwalker? Is that legal?
Yep. There are a few units that are restricted (non-Ynnari special characters, the Avatar, Solitaires) but the three you mention are good to go.
Why you'd do this is beyond me, though. The key thing to bear in mind is that no CWE/DE units get access to their original Codex's army-wide rule or stratagems. They also don't benefit from the Harlequins' rules.
All you're achieving is taking units that don't synergise together, barring with the lackluster Ynnari rules, at a potentially slightly cheaper CP cost than if you had an actual CWE/DE detachment alongside them.
epronovost wrote: My prediction is either that GW will take a huge risk and update massively the Eldar model range by remaking pretty much all their units except maybe some of their tanks, walkers and wraith units.
The safer option on the short term is to punt the problem ahead by remaking a few units here and their, while adding a new thing like a new special character and bloating further the model line of the eldars and letting people take harder decisions in 5-10 years.
The third option is basically making a big reboot a la Primaris Marines of the Craftworld brand, using the Ynnari storyline, remaking a lot of units and replacing many others.
At this stage I just feel CWE have had it, and walking ever so slowly, on their feeble shaky legs, gently pulled along the chain out towards the back of the barn while GW holding a shovel in the right hand saying softly... "Its okey.. it wont hurt... we had a good run.. hush now...It will be over quickly"
epronovost wrote: My prediction is either that GW will take a huge risk and update massively the Eldar model range by remaking pretty much all their units except maybe some of their tanks, walkers and wraith units.
The safer option on the short term is to punt the problem ahead by remaking a few units here and their, while adding a new thing like a new special character and bloating further the model line of the eldars and letting people take harder decisions in 5-10 years.
The third option is basically making a big reboot a la Primaris Marines of the Craftworld brand, using the Ynnari storyline, remaking a lot of units and replacing many others.
I think the 'big reboot' is a far bigger risk than a massive update. The update would actually make people happy, while replacing units will cause issues.
Honestly, they went for the big update on Necrons, and eldar, at least craftworld eldar, are far more popular.
I can see Ynanri being a supplement. Not that its something I wish to happen.. but I have an odd feeling GW can smell the $$$
The irony would be if it just makes all the CWE / DE/ Harlie units much better than on their own so you will just see ynanri everywhere. I dont think anyone wants to go back to soulburst days....
I think one of the worse designs is that you loose all the abilities of parent codex if you go ynnari. The tax is that you have take a named character as your warlord which IMO should be enough for whatever slight buff or sidegrade you may get as ynnari.
Does ynnari need to be better than DE/ CWE / Harlies on their own ? Hell no..
But does GW think so in order o sell you the supplament book... I think so..
ALSO - I cna totaly see a DBZ "Fuuusiiiioooon" between the AOK and the Yncarne.... You heard it here first
What's crazy is that the eldar models/imagery has amazing aesthetic appeal, now combine that with current plastic technology. They could make some seriously good models.
i want a massive boost for Eldar that makes their individual warriors deadly, and take out the horrible internal balance where players end up spamming one or two things while the rest of the army languishes into obscurity.
Warlocks need to be improved, although I'd prefer them to be unit leader upgrades for Guardians. Also then have a Seer Council unit return that contains farseers and warlocks.
Exarchs are more than just sgts and should be moved to a separate slot (that don't take up a detachment slot if you include an appropriate aspect unit). make them scary...they should be. That ship has sailed though with the banshee kit, so maybe Great Exarchs become a thing?
Of course, the aspects themselves need better rules to go along with new models. T3 1W is a staple that should remain, but their output needs to be worthy of their elite status.
Phoenix Lords are a tough one....they need to be almost primarch level, but can't be (although Jain Zar having 4 attacks is just damn laughable). I'd love to see the sculpts for these bad boys though.
And of course, a new Avatar is a must. Imagine a being immune to melta in the current meta....bring that back.
The vehicles and wraith constructs are totally fine as is, and the Guardians/bikes honestly don't need upgrading at this time. Drop Storm Guardians, they really just don't have a role in an eldar force.
I'd also like to see a wraith construct character.
I'd probably move rangers out of Troops and bring Scorpions as the Infiltrating Troop option. You then don't have them and banshees competing for Elite slots with somewhat similar roles.
It would be a real labour of love but hopefully the designers can pull something off spectacular.
Tygre wrote: Personally I would like Warlocks to be the Librarian equivalents they were in 2nd Ed. Not the sergeants they have become.
I'd go either way...either stay as sgts, but then actually be part of the unit...or become more like Librarians, and remain individual units. What we have now is just terrible.
PenitentJake wrote: So many of you have heard me say this before- I say it in every conversation that involves Ynarri, but I looked back and I haven't said it in this one yet. So here goes: The best way to release a Ynarri dex is to fill it up with Corsair and Exodite Reborn units. Then WD can release mini-dexes for fielding Corsair stand-alones and Exodite stand-alones.
I honestly think that's a terrible idea. That's two more eldar model lines when they haven't even updated or finished Craftworlds or Dark. That's going to make the situation worse, not better.
More disjointed, more hodgepodge, more problems with external and internal balance, and doesn't actually fix anything for anyone who already has armies or wants to start one.
I agree- which is why I would fix CWE and DE before fixing Ynarri.
But when the Ynarri fix does come, I think this way is the best way to do it. And one of the reasons I think it's the best way is because it stops CWE and DE from hemorrhaging units to Ynarri which would prevent CWE and DE from EVER being fixed. I'm actually not 100% sure, but Lelith going Ynarri only might make me angry enough to quit.
SamusDrake wrote: So for example, we can currently have a patrol detachment that contains a Shadowseer, Kabalites and a Warwalker? Is that legal?
Yep. There are a few units that are restricted (non-Ynnari special characters, the Avatar, Solitaires) but the three you mention are good to go.
Why you'd do this is beyond me, though. The key thing to bear in mind is that no CWE/DE units get access to their original Codex's army-wide rule or stratagems. They also don't benefit from the Harlequins' rules.
All you're achieving is taking units that don't synergise together, barring with the lackluster Ynnari rules, at a potentially slightly cheaper CP cost than if you had an actual CWE/DE detachment alongside them.
Hang on, since when did this get changed?
It used to be the case that you could have a Ynnari detachment (patrol for example), and in that one patrol you could have kabalite troops and warwalkers and harlequins. But that got changed a long time ago, during the neverending Ynnari nerfs, and you could only run a single army type per ynnari detachment.
So to have kabalite ynnari, you'd need Yvraine + kabalites in one patrol detachment. If you want war walkers as well, you'll have to take Yncarne + war walkers in a separate spearhead detachment.
This is one of the many reasons Ynnari are dead (no pun intended). The detachment and HQ taxes required if you want to run a mixed army, are just extortionate. You are much better off just taking a standard Craftworld and standard Dark Eldar detachments, as you then at least get decent stratagems and legion traits.
SamusDrake wrote: So for example, we can currently have a patrol detachment that contains a Shadowseer, Kabalites and a Warwalker? Is that legal?
Yep. There are a few units that are restricted (non-Ynnari special characters, the Avatar, Solitaires) but the three you mention are good to go.
Why you'd do this is beyond me, though. The key thing to bear in mind is that no CWE/DE units get access to their original Codex's army-wide rule or stratagems. They also don't benefit from the Harlequins' rules.
All you're achieving is taking units that don't synergise together, barring with the lackluster Ynnari rules, at a potentially slightly cheaper CP cost than if you had an actual CWE/DE detachment alongside them.
Hang on, since when did this get changed?
It used to be the case that you could have a Ynnari detachment (patrol for example), and in that one patrol you could have kabalite troops and warwalkers and harlequins. But that got changed a long time ago, during the neverending Ynnari nerfs, and you could only run a single army type per ynnari detachment.
So to have kabalite ynnari, you'd need Yvraine + kabalites in one patrol detachment. If you want war walkers as well, you'll have to take Yncarne + war walkers in a separate spearhead detachment.
This is one of the many reasons Ynnari are dead (no pun intended). The detachment and HQ taxes required if you want to run a mixed army, are just extortionate. You are much better off just taking a standard Craftworld and standard Dark Eldar detachments, as you then at least get decent stratagems and legion traits.
What you are thinking of is the option of using Ynarri characters by attaching them to the units of other types of Eldar. That is still possible, and as others have pointed out, it is somewhat advantageous, because if you do it that way, CWE keep CW traits and Psychic abilities, DE keep obsessions and Harlies keep Masque forms, pivotal roles. But that has only ever been one way to use Ynarri.
The other way is to field Ynarri detachments. This lets you mix all 4 eldar factions in a single detachment, but CWE, DE and Harlies lose all the stuff they get two keep using the other method and gain access to all the Ynarri stuff (which is nowhere near as good).
Both options have ALWAYS been possible. But attaching Ynarri as characters became the default for most people after the big nerf- so much so, apparently, that people have forgotten a) that they can take Ynarri detachments, and b) how it works if they choose to do it.
pretty sure in Matched Play you had to take a detachment that shared the appropriate keywords, and these could not be Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari or Ynnari. Therefore, you had to take a single detachment of either craftworld, harlequins or drukhari and make them Ynnari, but you couldn't combine them. I will check but I'm pretty sure that is the case.
edit: yeah, it's in the rules section for Ynnari. You cannot have mixed Harlie, Drukhari and Craftworlds in the same detachment, but can be in the same army. And this is the problem. If I wanted all 3 I would be forced to take all 3 Ynnari characters, one in harlequin, one in Drukhari and one in Craftworld. It's the main reason people complain about the army.
SamusDrake wrote: So for example, we can currently have a patrol detachment that contains a Shadowseer, Kabalites and a Warwalker? Is that legal?
Yep. There are a few units that are restricted (non-Ynnari special characters, the Avatar, Solitaires) but the three you mention are good to go.
Why you'd do this is beyond me, though. The key thing to bear in mind is that no CWE/DE units get access to their original Codex's army-wide rule or stratagems. They also don't benefit from the Harlequins' rules.
All you're achieving is taking units that don't synergise together, barring with the lackluster Ynnari rules, at a potentially slightly cheaper CP cost than if you had an actual CWE/DE detachment alongside them.
Hang on, since when did this get changed?
It used to be the case that you could have a Ynnari detachment (patrol for example), and in that one patrol you could have kabalite troops and warwalkers and harlequins. But that got changed a long time ago, during the neverending Ynnari nerfs, and you could only run a single army type per ynnari detachment.
So to have kabalite ynnari, you'd need Yvraine + kabalites in one patrol detachment. If you want war walkers as well, you'll have to take Yncarne + war walkers in a separate spearhead detachment.
This is one of the many reasons Ynnari are dead (no pun intended). The detachment and HQ taxes required if you want to run a mixed army, are just extortionate. You are much better off just taking a standard Craftworld and standard Dark Eldar detachments, as you then at least get decent stratagems and legion traits.
What you are thinking of is the option of using Ynarri characters by attaching them to the units of other types of Eldar. That is still possible, and as others have pointed out, it is somewhat advantageous, because if you do it that way, CWE keep CW traits and Psychic abilities, DE keep obsessions and Harlies keep Masque forms, pivotal roles. But that has only ever been one way to use Ynarri.
The other way is to field Ynarri detachments. This lets you mix all 4 eldar factions in a single detachment, but CWE, DE and Harlies lose all the stuff they get two keep using the other method and gain access to all the Ynarri stuff (which is nowhere near as good).
Both options have ALWAYS been possible. But attaching Ynarri as characters became the default for most people after the big nerf- so much so, apparently, that people have forgotten a) that they can take Ynarri detachments, and b) how it works if they choose to do it.
No, I was talking about a Ynnari detachment, where the units lose their army rules (battle focus, legion trait) and gain strength from death instead.
In armies like this, unless it's been changed, they have to be single-faction.
"If Yvraine (etc) is included in a <craftworlds>, <harlequins>, or <drukhari> detachment, you can choose ... for that detachment to become a <ynnari> detachment."
It may have been FAQ'd since their 'codex', since all the nerfs I didn't really look into Ynnari anymore.
Ninja Edit: Before I posted this I decided to check the errata, and it turns out it -was- faq'd. Turns out I was indeed wrong, and you can have a mixed Aeldari detachment and make it Ynnari. This changes things a bit, as the reason I gave up on the units I wanted in a list, was because it would have resulted in needing 3x detachments (not worth it). Cutting it down to 2x is much better.
Ynnari are still bad, and the trait is worse than just having any other CWE trait (expert crafters by itself is better than Ynnari), but it's opened up some options for my casual/fluffy lists.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bullyboy wrote: pretty sure in Matched Play you had to take a detachment that shared the appropriate keywords, and these could not be Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari or Ynnari. Therefore, you had to take a single detachment of either craftworld, harlequins or drukhari and make them Ynnari, but you couldn't combine them. I will check but I'm pretty sure that is the case.
This is also what I thought, but the FAQ (I'll have to go re-check this now) does actually seem to say Ynnari can ignore the 'battle brothers' rule.
‘Yvraine, the Visarch and/or the Yncarne can be
included in such a Detachment even if a rule states that
every unit in the Detachment must be from the same
faction, and that faction cannot be Aeldari (e.g. the
Battle Brothers matched play rule).’
bullyboy wrote: Where are you seeing this? I'm looking at Phoenix Rising Errata and there is nothing in it regarding Ynnari.
Ahh no you're right, I was looking at the Ynnari faq, but I forgot they got their rules updated in Phoenix Rising.
Which means I was right in the first place. They did have that ability, but it was removed. They then got it back in an faq. It was then removed AGAIN in phoenix rising.
I can't find anywhere where they got it back again. Possibly because by this point nobody played ynnari and so nobody noticed.
And now I've re-read Phoenix Rising, and I see the confusion... I'm less certain.
I also checked the FAQ and saw now reference to Ynarri. But the FAQ I checked was the Indomitus one, which is 9th. There would have been an 8th ed Phoenix Rising FAQ too, and maybe it's the one that says Ynarri ignore Battle Brothers.
I should also check 9th rules to see if the Battle Brothers rule was modified enough that the issue didn't need to be FAQed for 9th.
SamusDrake wrote: So for example, we can currently have a patrol detachment that contains a Shadowseer, Kabalites and a Warwalker? Is that legal?
Yep. There are a few units that are restricted (non-Ynnari special characters, the Avatar, Solitaires) but the three you mention are good to go.
Why you'd do this is beyond me, though. The key thing to bear in mind is that no CWE/DE units get access to their original Codex's army-wide rule or stratagems. They also don't benefit from the Harlequins' rules.
All you're achieving is taking units that don't synergise together, barring with the lackluster Ynnari rules, at a potentially slightly cheaper CP cost than if you had an actual CWE/DE detachment alongside them.
Thanks for clearing that up. Appreciate it.
Well, the main selling point of the Ynnari is that it is a mix'n'match army. From a collection point of view I prefer Kabalites than Guardians, Banshees instead of Wyches and Shadowseers instead of Archons. From a game point of view, Death Jesters and Reapers are a winning team.
Clearly GW has a lot of work left to do with the Ynnari, but the first thing they should do is take a few units from each faction and give them alternative datasheets - like the Genestealer for Tyranids and Gene Cults.
For example, a Craftworld Banshee would act as a disciplined elite solider, whereas a Ynnari Banshee is a furious front line zealot. That alone sees differences in their battlefield roles, as an elite and troop, respectively.
In its current form of just swapping the strategems and traits, they might as well slap the rules in Codex Harlequins and be done with it. But otherwise, a dedicated, stand alone codex is the way to go.
Ynnari haven't been able to mix army types is a detachment pretty much for the whole of 8th. The ignoring Battle Brothers rule specifically referred to the 3 characters since neither of them have the Craftworld, Drukhari or Harlequin keyword, and just sharing Ynnari was a rule in CA that didn't make the army Battle Forged (along with Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari, etc).
it's a shame because with the current nerfs, a fully mixed detachment wouldn't be broken and would look a little more fun on the table. I guess it was too much of a cake and eat it position for Gdubs.
We'll see what the future brings for ynnari, hopefully they have a plan.
greatbigtree wrote: I guess my question would be... why update them? The models *still* look good... my personal misgivings to the warp spiders aside.
The vehicles look good, the wraith units look good. I can’t think of anything that looks bad.
They’re a well designed army, they have a handful of unique units in each FOC slot... they feel pretty complete to me.
Well I mean the big one is the fact that they are all made of Finecast resin now.
That in of itself is a problem.
And even if they were still in metal, I'd bet most people would want plastic kits, including me.
As they are much easier to build and paint.
So you're reasoning for wanting perfectly good sculpts scrapped (besides being in FineCast) is pandering to the unskilled?
That is a really horrible and ignorant thing to say.
Learn the skills of the hobby your in & I won't say mean things to you.
How to assemble & paint metal &/or resin miniatures isn't a a complex secret. People have been doing it (and quite successfully) for decades. And without YouTube videos!
The next step down is of course begging GW for pre-buikt, pre-painted stuff ala X-Wing or Heroclix.
greatbigtree wrote: I guess my question would be... why update them? The models *still* look good... my personal misgivings to the warp spiders aside.
The vehicles look good, the wraith units look good. I can’t think of anything that looks bad.
They’re a well designed army, they have a handful of unique units in each FOC slot... they feel pretty complete to me.
Well I mean the big one is the fact that they are all made of Finecast resin now.
That in of itself is a problem.
And even if they were still in metal, I'd bet most people would want plastic kits, including me.
As they are much easier to build and paint.
So you're reasoning for wanting perfectly good sculpts scrapped (besides being in FineCast) is pandering to the unskilled?
That is a really horrible and ignorant thing to say.
Learn the skills of the hobby your in & I won't say mean things to you.
How to assemble & paint metal &/or resin miniatures isn't a a complex secret. People have been doing it (and quite successfully) for decades. And without YouTube videos!
The next step down is of course begging GW for pre-buikt, pre-painted stuff ala X-Wing or Heroclix.
Yeah but fine cast is not good quality resin is it ? It is not FW resin.. It absolutely does not work with flimsy Eldar infantry...
And no matter how skilled you are it is a vastly inferior product when compared to plastic or other resin products from FW or other manufacturers.
When I buy a miniature I don't expect to have to sculpt cables, pouches and other gak thats supposed to be there...
There is a reason why NIB metal aspect models sell for more then current finecast ones on ebay and it aint nostalgia.
greatbigtree wrote: I guess my question would be... why update them? The models *still* look good... my personal misgivings to the warp spiders aside.
The vehicles look good, the wraith units look good. I can’t think of anything that looks bad.
They’re a well designed army, they have a handful of unique units in each FOC slot... they feel pretty complete to me.
Well I mean the big one is the fact that they are all made of Finecast resin now.
That in of itself is a problem.
And even if they were still in metal, I'd bet most people would want plastic kits, including me.
As they are much easier to build and paint.
So you're reasoning for wanting perfectly good sculpts scrapped (besides being in FineCast) is pandering to the unskilled?
That is a really horrible and ignorant thing to say.
Learn the skills of the hobby your in & I won't say mean things to you.
How to assemble & paint metal &/or resin miniatures isn't a a complex secret. People have been doing it (and quite successfully) for decades. And without YouTube videos!
The next step down is of course begging GW for pre-buikt, pre-painted stuff ala X-Wing or Heroclix.
Yeah but fine cast is not good quality resin is it ? It is not FW resin.. It absolutely does not work with flimsy Eldar infantry...
And no matter how skilled you are it is a vastly inferior product when compared to plastic or other resin products from FW or other manufacturers.
When I buy a miniature I don't expect to have to sculpt cables, pouches and other gak thats supposed to be there...
There is a reason why NIB metal aspect models sell for more then current finecast ones on ebay and it aint nostalgia.
100 % agree with this.
I'll take metal over finecast any day of the weak and plastic over both. At the end of the day, I want my models to look as good as possible and if I am going to have to put in 5x the amount of time to do that then clearly I have bought an inferior product... I remember how disappointing fine cast was when it first came out,,, and GW had the nerve to increase the price during that switch... Anyhow... that is a complaint from yesteryears past.
greatbigtree wrote: I guess my question would be... why update them? The models *still* look good... my personal misgivings to the warp spiders aside.
The vehicles look good, the wraith units look good. I can’t think of anything that looks bad.
They’re a well designed army, they have a handful of unique units in each FOC slot... they feel pretty complete to me.
Well I mean the big one is the fact that they are all made of Finecast resin now. That in of itself is a problem.
And even if they were still in metal, I'd bet most people would want plastic kits, including me. As they are much easier to build and paint.
So you're reasoning for wanting perfectly good sculpts scrapped (besides being in FineCast) is pandering to the unskilled?
That is a really horrible and ignorant thing to say.
Learn the skills of the hobby your in & I won't say mean things to you. How to assemble & paint metal &/or resin miniatures isn't a a complex secret. People have been doing it (and quite successfully) for decades. And without YouTube videos!
The next step down is of course begging GW for pre-buikt, pre-painted stuff ala X-Wing or Heroclix.
Yeah but fine cast is not good quality resin is it ? It is not FW resin.. It absolutely does not work with flimsy Eldar infantry...
And no matter how skilled you are it is a vastly inferior product when compared to plastic or other resin products from FW or other manufacturers. When I buy a miniature I don't expect to have to sculpt cables, pouches and other gak thats supposed to be there...
There is a reason why NIB metal aspect models sell for more then current finecast ones on ebay and it aint nostalgia.
100 % agree with this. I'll take metal over finecast any day of the weak and plastic over both. At the end of the day, I want my models to look as good as possible and if I am going to have to put in 5x the amount of time to do that then clearly I have bought an inferior product... I remember how disappointing fine cast was when it first came out,,, and GW had the nerve to increase the price during that switch... Anyhow... that is a complaint from yesteryears past.
When picking up a secondary or subsequent armies most people are on the fence. Like "Ohh I could start tyranids coz Alien and fluff... but also I like space wizards like Eldar and the "path" idea..." etc
So it stands to reason why people will shy away from collecting Eldar if their only real options are tanks, wraiths and jetbikes... But not the cool iconic aspect warrior space ninjaz+ Phoenix lords which might actually appeal the most coz then they'd have to deal with fine cast.
Even Lawrence from TTT is refusing to add aspects to their studio army via commission/ paint himself simply because it means dealing with fine cast. And they could do it if they wanted very easily as they got the new banshees straight away.. From his point of view its a waste of time because the models will very likely warp over time (you should see my ranger barrels...) and genuinely they could just melt on really hot summer day if left near a window... So if people with seemingly endless resources are not buying into fine-cast how could anyone expect your average hobbyist with a budget justify it...
The fact that they are fine-cast is absolutely a problem/issue in its own right.
Type40 wrote: I'll take metal over finecast any day of the weak and plastic over both.
This is why I haven't bought Aspect Warrior models since Finecast came out.
The one set I did get were Dark Reapers, which are chunky enough to take the flinsiness of Finecast. Nope. Still too thin and spindly to stay unbroken.
Once bitten....
You know what I hate... the fact that we even call it "Finecast." instead of gakky resin.
This word was an invention by GW to try and doublespeak their way into having us think the product was somehow premium. There is nothing "Fine" about these "casts."
I was so pissed that warmahordes switched to some resin kits and got cheaper whilst in the same era GW switched to "finecast" kits and got more expensive ... They switched to a cheaper method but increased prices... is that a normal thing to do ?
Type40 wrote: You know what I hate... the fact that we even call it "Finecast." instead of gakky resin.
This word was an invention by GW to try and doublespeak their way into having us think the product was somehow premium. There is nothing "Fine" about these "casts."
I was so pissed that warmahordes switched to some resin kits and got cheaper whilst in the same era GW switched to "finecast" kits and got more expensive ... They switched to a cheaper method but increased prices... is that a normal thing to do ?
for a company with Games workshops level of market control? yes
Even outside of the Finecast/metal/plastic divide... I just don't like the models and I genuinely do think they need updating.
The Phoenix Lords are all very very 2D in their poses and the Avatar is now dwarfed by all the Greater Daemons that he's meant to be on roughly even standing with, so I don't see why anyone would have issue with updating those.
Warp Spiders and Fire Dragons have what I'd call the right style, but they're still very 2D with not much variation between individual models in the squad (barring that one grenading Fire Dragon).
Meanwhile, the newer sculpts for Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks and Striking Scorpions have this... how can I describe it? More "cartoony" style that just doesn't look right on Eldar to me. I think it's mostly the helmets as the armour seems ok still, but of course the head is the model's natural focal point.
Zoom in on those heads and compare to the plastic Dire Avengers, or Farseer, and hopefully you'll see what I mean. Not that I think this is a byproduct of the material, it's clearly a design and/or sculpt difference.
what about the models don't you like? because the howling banshees are very similer to the look of the old finecast ones, so if it's just a general aestetics thing umm... yeah that ain't chaning, nor, given how popular the aestetic is with people, should it
The more recent Finecast stuff is actually okay, I picked up a box of dark reapers last year and there were no bubbles, no warping and the casts were crisp. I think there a lot of people who got bitten early on and don't want that experience again. To be fair, if you buy through GW or your LGS is a friendly one, if you do get miscasts or the like, they generally replace it for you like for like. I've had replacements for finecast and the customer service has been excellent.
Long gone are the days of massive cavities in every model but the odd bubble and miscast still persists.
I'd still take metal over it though, but the horror stories people are spreading simply aren't as big as folks make out.
Either way, the sooner they phase finecast resin out, the better, I'm dying for a nice material to work with.
Type40 wrote: Doesn't the Avatar have a new kit released in the AOS Daughters of Khain start collecting box ?
While there are people that have used that model as the 40k Avatar it is a poor imitation and is infact simply part of the Dark Elf Cauldron of Blood model.
The best 40k Avatar is currently the Forgeworld ones, the sword version of which is no longer in production. And they are still smaller than the current Greater Daemons. He needs the same steroid injection the Greater Daemons got in the form of a new plastic kit and being that he should rightly be the Supreme Commander of the Eldar army an update is well overdue.
Type40 wrote: Doesn't the Avatar have a new kit released in the AOS Daughters of Khain start collecting box ?
While there are people that have used that model as the 40k Avatar it is a poor imitation and is infact simply part of the Dark Elf Cauldron of Blood model.
The best 40k Avatar is currently the Forgeworld ones, the sword version of which is no longer in production. And they are still smaller than the current Greater Daemons. He needs the same steroid injection the Greater Daemons got in the form of a new plastic kit and being that he should rightly be the Supreme Commander of the Eldar army an update is well overdue.
Fair,
GW does advertise him as being 40k playable...
Now, saying that,
Ya, the daughters of khain sculpt is, IMO, even derpier looking then the original lol.
I must admit, I do really like the style of that Cauldron Of Blood statue's armour. Something like that as a standalone in a new pose would be great. But that model as it is, just doesn't really work that well on its own. Like, what is it meant to be doing, T-posing to make everyone die of laughter?
SamusDrake wrote: So for example, we can currently have a patrol detachment that contains a Shadowseer, Kabalites and a Warwalker? Is that legal?
Yep. There are a few units that are restricted (non-Ynnari special characters, the Avatar, Solitaires) but the three you mention are good to go.
Why you'd do this is beyond me, though. The key thing to bear in mind is that no CWE/DE units get access to their original Codex's army-wide rule or stratagems. They also don't benefit from the Harlequins' rules.
All you're achieving is taking units that don't synergise together, barring with the lackluster Ynnari rules, at a potentially slightly cheaper CP cost than if you had an actual CWE/DE detachment alongside them.
actually you can't do the mix he proposed at all, they only share the <Aeldari> keyword since they are <Harlequin reborn>, <Drukhari reborn> and <Asuryani reborn>.
Allowing elfs to be souped in the same detachment is actually the big thing that would "fix" ynnari
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Argive wrote: I can see Ynanri being a supplement. Not that its something I wish to happen.. but I have an odd feeling GW can smell the $$$
The irony would be if it just makes all the CWE / DE/ Harlie units much better than on their own so you will just see ynanri everywhere. I dont think anyone wants to go back to soulburst days....
soulburst sucks now anyway, it wouldnt be oppressive at all.
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bullyboy wrote: Ynnari haven't been able to mix army types is a detachment pretty much for the whole of 8th. The ignoring Battle Brothers rule specifically referred to the 3 characters since neither of them have the Craftworld, Drukhari or Harlequin keyword, and just sharing Ynnari was a rule in CA that didn't make the army Battle Forged (along with Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari, etc).
it's a shame because with the current nerfs, a fully mixed detachment wouldn't be broken and would look a little more fun on the table. I guess it was too much of a cake and eat it position for Gdubs.
We'll see what the future brings for ynnari, hopefully they have a plan.
thats exactly what i want them to do to fix the army. personally i love the concept of ynnari being one last ditch effort to save their race and i would love to be 100% free in my army composition (let me take incubi, drazar, eldrad and lelith ffs, theyre Ynnari aligned in the fluff -.-
I hope they don't release new eldar models any time soon. New models means the old ones are going to get phased out and replaced by newer, uglier sculpts.
Just look at what they did to space marines. Rhinos, predators, land raiders, and all their variants are practically irrelevant now on the game side of things. All GW has to do is write inferior datasheets for the old models and then magically, everyone stops playing them. More and more of your existing collection will be consigned to legends and eventually GW will drop support for those models entirely.
Consider that nowadays most SM players run lists full of Primaris supported by hideous abominations like the Repulsor chassis. Do you really want that to happen to eldar?
artific3r wrote: I hope they don't release new eldar models any time soon. New models means the old ones are going to get phased out and replaced by newer, uglier sculpts.
It's very pessimistic to think that GW could make the Craftworld sculpts any uglier.
Nonethless, I agree that the Craftworld sculpts should remain for those space elf players who don't care about aesthetics. If they wanted good looking models they would already be playing Drukhari.
artific3r wrote: I hope they don't release new eldar models any time soon. New models means the old ones are going to get phased out and replaced by newer, uglier sculpts.
It's very pessimistic to think that GW could make the Craftworld sculpts any uglier.
Nonethless, I agree that the Craftworld sculpts should remain for those space elf players who don't care about aesthetics. If they wanted good looking models they would already be playing Drukhari.
They've made Banshees uglier with those sandal feet, I wouldn't put it past them to continue the ugly streak.
artific3r wrote: I hope they don't release new eldar models any time soon. New models means the old ones are going to get phased out and replaced by newer, uglier sculpts.
It's very pessimistic to think that GW could make the Craftworld sculpts any uglier.
Nonethless, I agree that the Craftworld sculpts should remain for those space elf players who don't care about aesthetics. If they wanted good looking models they would already be playing Drukhari.
They've made Banshees uglier with those sandal feet, I wouldn't put it past them to continue the ugly streak.
I actually painted up a full squad of the new plastic Banshees a few months back. Every time I look at them I regret not going with pewter.
actually you can't do the mix he proposed at all, they only share the <Aeldari> keyword since they are <Harlequin reborn>, <Drukhari reborn> and <Asuryani reborn>.
Allowing elfs to be souped in the same detachment is actually the big thing that would "fix" ynnari
Urggghhhh....back to square one again.
Oh well, at least the Harles seem be doing well these days.
SamusDrake wrote: So for example, we can currently have a patrol detachment that contains a Shadowseer, Kabalites and a Warwalker? Is that legal?
Yep. There are a few units that are restricted (non-Ynnari special characters, the Avatar, Solitaires) but the three you mention are good to go.
Why you'd do this is beyond me, though. The key thing to bear in mind is that no CWE/DE units get access to their original Codex's army-wide rule or stratagems. They also don't benefit from the Harlequins' rules.
All you're achieving is taking units that don't synergise together, barring with the lackluster Ynnari rules, at a potentially slightly cheaper CP cost than if you had an actual CWE/DE detachment alongside them.
actually you can't do the mix he proposed at all, they only share the <Aeldari> keyword since they are <Harlequin reborn>, <Drukhari reborn> and <Asuryani reborn>.
Allowing elfs to be souped in the same detachment is actually the big thing that would "fix" ynnari
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Argive wrote: I can see Ynanri being a supplement. Not that its something I wish to happen.. but I have an odd feeling GW can smell the $$$
The irony would be if it just makes all the CWE / DE/ Harlie units much better than on their own so you will just see ynanri everywhere. I dont think anyone wants to go back to soulburst days....
soulburst sucks now anyway, it wouldnt be oppressive at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bullyboy wrote: Ynnari haven't been able to mix army types is a detachment pretty much for the whole of 8th. The ignoring Battle Brothers rule specifically referred to the 3 characters since neither of them have the Craftworld, Drukhari or Harlequin keyword, and just sharing Ynnari was a rule in CA that didn't make the army Battle Forged (along with Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari, etc).
it's a shame because with the current nerfs, a fully mixed detachment wouldn't be broken and would look a little more fun on the table. I guess it was too much of a cake and eat it position for Gdubs.
We'll see what the future brings for ynnari, hopefully they have a plan.
thats exactly what i want them to do to fix the army. personally i love the concept of ynnari being one last ditch effort to save their race and i would love to be 100% free in my army composition (let me take incubi, drazar, eldrad and lelith ffs, theyre Ynnari aligned in the fluff -.-
Soulburst as in double activation wouldn't be good?
I meant I dont want us to go back to double activiation days. any fight twice/ shoot twice need to go away from the game for anyone and everyone.
thats exactly what i want them to do to fix the army. personally i love the concept of ynnari being one last ditch effort to save their race and i would love to be 100% free in my army composition (let me take incubi, drazar, eldrad and lelith ffs, theyre Ynnari aligned in the fluff -.-
I see Ynnari as an abortive first step to fold all of the 'troublesome' Aeldari codexes into one, and thereby alleviate the need for GW to provide them with anything substantially new ever again.
The shallow Ynnari fluff is simply a transparent justification for what GW had hoped to do to the Aeldari product lines; Primaris are amazing because the fluff we have written to sell you on them says so.
Super Ready wrote: I must admit, I do really like the style of that Cauldron Of Blood statue's armour. Something like that as a standalone in a new pose would be great. But that model as it is, just doesn't really work that well on its own. Like, what is it meant to be doing, T-posing to make everyone die of laughter?
Like when a computer game goes wrong? Characters zooming around with their arms out
I see Ynnari as an abortive first step to fold all of the 'troublesome' Aeldari codexes into one, and thereby alleviate the need for GW to provide them with anything substantially new ever again.
Interesting idea, although I do wonder why they promoted the Harlequins to their own army in 2017, which is the same year they introduced the Ynnari.
I suppose instead of doing that back then they thought they would test the waters first.
Edit: Actually, I think I got that wrong - 2017 was the change over from 7th to 8th edition. Harlequins were earlier.
R: Updating existing models is a harder sell than just making new models for new units or even new factions, so they'll only update Eldar when there's absolutely no other choice left to them.
