I mean why don’t they take over ork, eldar, kroot, squat or other alien civilisations?

Mainly because humans are all over the place. Ork hybrids exist but their models are now OOP. Eldar hybrids are incredibly rare, and Kroot hybrids are detected & killed by 'normal' Kroot. Don't think Squads have ever been mentioned, and T'au hybrids are in a couple of novels.

There are other hybrids.

Since almost every planet featured in the background is under Imperial control, however, the focus is on human hybrids.

mrFickle wrote:
I mean why don’t they take over ork, eldar, kroot, squat or other alien civilisations?

They do - just not as often appearing in the lore.

They are specific lore examples of Ork, Tau and Eldar GSCs

Do you mean in the lore, or as models?

In the lore there are othets infested. There are some fun infestions of Tau. Necrons and nids can not be infested. In ork cultures they are to violent for gsc to really thrive. Gsc usualy needs generations, orks live to fight so you see how that goes. Heaven knows how you get 4th geberation spores.

They can infect eldars but the eldars take very long to get new generations. Eldars also tend to sence that something is wrong. Space Marines varies in the novels. One felt the GSC atempting to take over and fought back.

Kroots, vespids others I really can not say. When it comes to humans the way the imperium is build up in a facist regine with little love for the common man it is ripe for GSC.

When it comes to models it is vert easy to do the miner humans theme for them. They even have miner weapons profiles. There are probably GSC pirates out there. Could be a cool army. But that is not how the rules are representing them.

The same reason why all genestealer cultists are miners: Because GW only starts mentioning a thing when they specifically make a model for it.

That's it. It's not complicated really.

Mainly because humans are more or less the ideal hosts for GSC, being so widespread and the main focus of the setting, so while there are definitely GSC amongst other races, most of them are likely of minor xenos factions that don't warrant representation with models and so you don't hear about them.

There's one Eldar book where it turns out the locals turned into Hybrids so as to avoid having their souls swallowed by Slaanesh. Decent enough read. Shows that it's certainly possible.

It may be a priority target. As others have said, humans have the reach/spread, and the pressure or the other races keeps them busy and perhaps less able to focus on the tyranids. Once the humans are taken down, the rest may be deemed as easy follow up

 RegularGuy wrote:
It may be a priority target. As others have said, humans have the reach/spread, and the pressure or the other races keeps them busy and perhaps less able to focus on the tyranids. Once the humans are taken down, the rest may be deemed as easy follow up

Humans also have a relatively rapid year round active breeding cycle to exploit.

Didn’t realise there was such an easy answer to the question!

I’ll have to google ork OOP genestealer hybrids

It's also because basically every other faction besides the IoM is smart enough to find genestealer cults and deal with them. Even orks.

While there are examples of Oks and Eldar genestealers hybrids, they are very rare since both those race are very good at spotting the hybrids.

Eldars are all psykers and their entire tech is psychic based. They can thus detect the "alieness" of the genetealer very easily. Dark Eldars no longer are highly psychic since they are self repressed, but they rarely reproduce sexually making the spread difficult. They are also master of gene modification so probably have a cure to it too. The fact that Eldars are rare and reproduce very slowly doesn't make the spread of a genestealer cult easy within their society. At best, you'll have a few infected individual who would be forced to flee Eldar society and maybe attempt to breed with another kind of hybrid.

Orks, while very numerous, also have a gestal psychic talent and can also know when something isn't "orky" enough and those things they kill. Orks also have a radically different reproduction system.

T'au reproduce by cast and according to a very specific and controlled fashion making the spread of the cult difficult and Necrons are basically living robots.

Humans ae numerous reproduce anarchically and quickly, live in society that are easy to infiltrate and represent the greatest threat and resources to the Nids. That's why they are the most common and mining guilds, private enforcers and industrial workers are their most common target due to their ubiquitousness and their ease of access to weapons and heavy equipment. .

epronovost wrote:
While there are examples of Oks and Eldar genestealers hybrids, they are very rare since both those race are very good at spotting the hybrids.

Eldars are all psykers and their entire tech is psychic based. They can thus detect the "alieness" of the genetealer very easily. Dark Eldars no longer are highly psychic since they are self repressed, but they rarely reproduce sexually making the spread difficult. They are also master of gene modification so probably have a cure to it too. The fact that Eldars are rare and reproduce very slowly doesn't make the spread of a genestealer cult easy within their society. At best, you'll have a few infected individual who would be forced to flee Eldar society and maybe attempt to breed with another kind of hybrid.

Orks, while very numerous, also have a gestal psychic talent and can also know when something isn't "orky" enough and those things they kill. Orks also have a radically different reproduction system.

T'au reproduce by cast and according to a very specific and controlled fashion making the spread of the cult difficult and Necrons are basically living robots.

Humans ae numerous reproduce anarchically and quickly, live in society that are easy to infiltrate and represent the greatest threat and resources to the Nids. That's why they are the most common and mining guilds, private enforcers and industrial workers are their most common target due to their ubiquitousness and their ease of access to weapons and heavy equipment. .

It's noted, though, that even humans in Tau space don't really have genestealer cults - because the Tau are good at detecting it *in humans* and curing it. So it's not a matter of species, really - it's a matter of the Imperium of Man being a corrupt, bloated bureaucracy run by degenerate nobles who couldn't find their ass with both hands and a map.

Hecaton wrote:

epronovost wrote:
While there are examples of Oks and Eldar genestealers hybrids, they are very rare since both those race are very good at spotting the hybrids.

Eldars are all psykers and their entire tech is psychic based. They can thus detect the "alieness" of the genetealer very easily. Dark Eldars no longer are highly psychic since they are self repressed, but they rarely reproduce sexually making the spread difficult. They are also master of gene modification so probably have a cure to it too. The fact that Eldars are rare and reproduce very slowly doesn't make the spread of a genestealer cult easy within their society. At best, you'll have a few infected individual who would be forced to flee Eldar society and maybe attempt to breed with another kind of hybrid.

Orks, while very numerous, also have a gestal psychic talent and can also know when something isn't "orky" enough and those things they kill. Orks also have a radically different reproduction system.

T'au reproduce by cast and according to a very specific and controlled fashion making the spread of the cult difficult and Necrons are basically living robots.

Humans ae numerous reproduce anarchically and quickly, live in society that are easy to infiltrate and represent the greatest threat and resources to the Nids. That's why they are the most common and mining guilds, private enforcers and industrial workers are their most common target due to their ubiquitousness and their ease of access to weapons and heavy equipment. .

It's noted, though, that even humans in Tau space don't really have genestealer cults - because the Tau are good at detecting it *in humans* and curing it. So it's not a matter of species, really - it's a matter of the Imperium of Man being a corrupt, bloated bureaucracy run by degenerate nobles who couldn't find their ass with both hands and a map.

Nah. that's just the typical Tau bull$%^& coming into play.

There's someone in the Studio whose job appears to be applying handwavium to any potential issue the Tau might have. It gets old very, very fast.

 Dysartes wrote:
Nah. that's just the typical Tau bull$%^& coming into play.

There's someone in the Studio whose job appears to be applying handwavium to any potential issue the Tau might have. It gets old very, very fast.

It makes sense, though, because the Tau actually innovate technology, that they'd develop a technological solution to the problem. The AdMech focus on unearthing lost technology, not developing new stuff, and so wouldn't have a good solution to a species that's a relative galactic newcomer (genestealers).

The Eldar have similar solutions. It's not that the Tau are bs, the Imperium is just full of superstitious, backwards idiots.

The tau totally have genestealer cults.
There's the fun case where the tau captured a genestealer, and decided to experiment and see what would happen if they infected themselves with it.
The research labs inevitably were taken over and soon enough a planetwide insurgency sparked off a 10 year civil war and quarantine of the sept world.
At the end of which an 'eccentric' ethereal with a dubious name announced the planet was 'productive and clean'. Clearly no more cult activity here.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ksi%27m%27yen

Humans are ideal hosts.

We breed frequently and reliably. We live in vast numbers on Hive Worlds. We have an archaic command structure ideal for their purposes. Most of all, we’re widespread.

Compare to Tau. Their strict Caste System strictly limits the potential of a Cult.

Eldar? They barely breed. It’s also possible that due to consistent psychic ability, they find it easier to spot the infiltration and hybrids.

Orks? Originally they could just tell Hybrids weren’t proper Orks, leading to them being shunned. And in that take, Orks only bred at the end of their life cycle, further curtailing the cult’s growth. In the new background, Orks reproduce by emitting spores. Less than ideal for a would-be cult.

So other types of Hybrids inherently exist, it’s just that humanity are the preferred eco-system.

Eldar and Dark Eldar have very small populations (on a galactic scale) and those that they have are often on either heavily guarded worlds and/or craftworkd ships. So there's far less scope for Genestealers to sneak into their society and infiltrate them; and even harder to do so undetected for a prolonged period of time to start building a cult.

Tau are even smaller, they are a pin-prick so even if they get invested its going to be a very rare event. Plus they are unlikely to be exploring space like the Imperium so are far less likely to run across space hulks and the like.



Humanity is far more easily infested. They have a vast population that spreads over the galaxy; they aren't hiding or shy about their populations and within their populations there are ample segments of society which are basically ignored. In fact the bulk are treated like servants and slaves on many worlds that get cult infestations. People who are basically only required to breed and provide bodies for labour and war. Where mutation and bodily harm from industrial work are more commonplace.

Ample room to hide a xenomorph infestation that starts corrupting bodies. A few marks on the body are burns and scars from chemical works; the extra eye a mutation because you live near the output of a factory and that extra arm; ok you're a muto so you're lower than low but so long as you can lift those rocks you can hang around and work in the mine - in your own group so you don't socialist with the normies.


Basically humanity isn't just a very ripe target, its one that is much easier for the stealers to build a functional cult within.

Hecaton wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Nah. that's just the typical Tau bull$%^& coming into play.

There's someone in the Studio whose job appears to be applying handwavium to any potential issue the Tau might have. It gets old very, very fast.

It makes sense, though, because the Tau actually innovate technology, that they'd develop a technological solution to the problem. The AdMech focus on unearthing lost technology, not developing new stuff, and so wouldn't have a good solution to a species that's a relative galactic newcomer (genestealers).

The Eldar have similar solutions. It's not that the Tau are bs, the Imperium is just full of superstitious, backwards idiots.

In a word, no. There's been multiple occasions in novels whereby once the infection is known, the Imperium initiates mass gene testing to weed them out. It's not a massively innovative piece of technlogy, Christ, we can do gene testing even today. It's more a case of 'Why would you routinely and securely scan the entire population for Genestealers when the Imperium is so big most people will never be within thirty systems of one?'.

The whole point of Stealers is that they infiltrate, and where possible subvert the chain of command and testing apparatus (labs, etc) to cover for each other. So you never realise that they're there until it's too late to start widespread testing and identifying/isolating them.

If the Tau are routinely undertaking gene testing of everybody frequently enough to catch Genestealer taint on arrival, that has far more terrifying autocratic implications than the IOM's casual neglect of its citizenry.

Hecaton wrote:

epronovost wrote:
While there are examples of Oks and Eldar genestealers hybrids, they are very rare since both those race are very good at spotting the hybrids.

Eldars are all psykers and their entire tech is psychic based. They can thus detect the "alieness" of the genetealer very easily. Dark Eldars no longer are highly psychic since they are self repressed, but they rarely reproduce sexually making the spread difficult. They are also master of gene modification so probably have a cure to it too. The fact that Eldars are rare and reproduce very slowly doesn't make the spread of a genestealer cult easy within their society. At best, you'll have a few infected individual who would be forced to flee Eldar society and maybe attempt to breed with another kind of hybrid.

Orks, while very numerous, also have a gestal psychic talent and can also know when something isn't "orky" enough and those things they kill. Orks also have a radically different reproduction system.

T'au reproduce by cast and according to a very specific and controlled fashion making the spread of the cult difficult and Necrons are basically living robots.

Humans ae numerous reproduce anarchically and quickly, live in society that are easy to infiltrate and represent the greatest threat and resources to the Nids. That's why they are the most common and mining guilds, private enforcers and industrial workers are their most common target due to their ubiquitousness and their ease of access to weapons and heavy equipment. .

It's noted, though, that even humans in Tau space don't really have genestealer cults - because the Tau are good at detecting it *in humans* and curing it. So it's not a matter of species, really - it's a matter of the Imperium of Man being a corrupt, bloated bureaucracy run by degenerate nobles who couldn't find their ass with both hands and a map.

Where is it noted that the Tau don't have GSCs?

There are a number of specific examples in the Lore stating the opposite.

Now the Tau are a difficult one for the Cult to get started in due to their society and breeding culture but if they can then Cult will benefit from the same highly stratfied and obediant society.

Humanity is however a much much easier target.

Good story in latest Inferno with a stable GSC doiminating worlds and defeating disease then coming into conflict with followers of Nurgle who see this as a challange

 Ketara wrote:
In a word, no. There's been multiple occasions in novels whereby once the infection is known, the Imperium initiates mass gene testing to weed them out. It's not a massively innovative piece of technlogy, Christ, we can do gene testing even today. It's more a case of 'Why would you routinely and securely scan the entire population for Genestealers when the Imperium is so big most people will never be within thirty systems of one?'.

Sure, we have tests for that *today*, but the Imperium is hopelessly backwards with respect to technology and how to implement it. A Magos Biologis would rather jealously guard a method of gene testing than allow it to be deployed en masse to help people. In any case, I'm not familiar with these novels; surely you can cite them?

 Ketara wrote:
The whole point of Stealers is that they infiltrate, and where possible subvert the chain of command and testing apparatus (labs, etc) to cover for each other. So you never realise that they're there until it's too late to start widespread testing and identifying/isolating them.

Except the Kroot can detect them via olfactory means, and the Tau have technology to cure a genestealer infection.

 Ketara wrote:
If the Tau are routinely undertaking gene testing of everybody frequently enough to catch Genestealer taint on arrival, that has far more terrifying autocratic implications than the IOM's casual neglect of its citizenry.

No, and trying to imply that the Tau are less authoritarian, murderous, and cruel than the Imperium of Man is the epitome of a bad-faith argument. Remember, the Imperium just kills babies with deformities. Born intersex, with a cleft palette, or with a sixth finger? They'll kill you as a baby, while an Ecclesiarchical preacher opines that you deserved it and are evil from birth. And if your mother tries to intervene? They'll kill her too, probably try to torture her to death to prove a point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Where is it noted that the Tau don't have GSCs?

There are a number of specific examples in the Lore stating the opposite.

The only extant example of a Tau GSC is from a Twisted Helix - like event, as mentioned by someone upthread.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Now the Tau are a difficult one for the Cult to get started in due to their society and breeding culture but if they can then Cult will benefit from the same highly stratfied and obediant society.

If they infected the Ethereal caste, sure. But The Imperium is incredibly stratified and obedient as well, probably moreso than the Tau.

The Greater Evil and Voice of Experience both deal with Tau GSC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:
Didn’t realise there was such an easy answer to the question!

I’ll have to google ork OOP genestealer hybrids

Others have covered this, but with all the back and forth, perhaps you should read some of the compiled fluff for yourself, and draw your own conclusions.
Genestealer Cult

mrFickle wrote:
I mean why don’t they take over ork, eldar, kroot, squat or other alien civilisations?

Hecaton wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
In a word, no. There's been multiple occasions in novels whereby once the infection is known, the Imperium initiates mass gene testing to weed them out. It's not a massively innovative piece of technlogy, Christ, we can do gene testing even today. It's more a case of 'Why would you routinely and securely scan the entire population for Genestealers when the Imperium is so big most people will never be within thirty systems of one?'.

Sure, we have tests for that *today*, but the Imperium is hopelessly backwards with respect to technology and how to implement it. A Magos Biologis would rather jealously guard a method of gene testing than allow it to be deployed en masse to help people. In any case, I'm not familiar with these novels; surely you can cite them?

I read my way through the Ciaphas Cain series recently, and can confirm it comes up several times in them.
One such instance:

Duty Calls wrote:
Broklaw nodded. ‘You don’t know the half of it. We’ve got nearly a thousand refugees trapped in the terminal building,’ he said. ‘Evacuated from lower down.’
‘Most of them have been stuck there for days,’ Kasteen added, ‘waiting for genetic screening to weed out any hybrids among them, but the justicars have been a bit too busy to deal with that.’

The first Cain book also covers both Kroot detection of infection - taste test on corpses, not smell, and they don't seem to know much about Genestealers at the point the book is set (early 900.M41, from memory) - as well as the thing at the finale.

One of the other Cain books covers working with the Tau against the Tyranids, but I can't recall if there are further mentions of Genestealer infiltration one way or another in that one off the top of my head.

I always love the stories where some one investigates GSC. And some place down the line you get the 'aI is all good. No more infection here. Sertanly do not come down yourself and make sure.' Always a sign of a healthy sociaty.

Hecaton wrote:

Sure, we have tests for that *today*, but the Imperium is hopelessly backwards with respect to technology and how to implement it. A Magos Biologis would rather jealously guard a method of gene testing than allow it to be deployed en masse to help people. In any case, I'm not familiar with these novels; surely you can cite them?

Off the top of my head it happens in the Ciaphas Cain novel series. Perlia, or one of the other genestealer plots where they need to test the Guard, then the PDF, and so on. There were also entire regiments of gene-hanced soldiers in the Heresy that I'm aware of (starting from the Geno Five Two Chilead on down), and multiple mentions of gene-hancing have been made offhand in various novels all over the joint (usually inquisitorial ones where some underworld gang or another is doing it).

The only time I ever read about gene analysis being a big deal was in the Shira Calpurnia series where some super hench and rare ancient computer was deployed to do it because it was needed to validate a permit from the Emperor himself for an original Rogue Trader. So it was a massive big deal for political reasons.

Point being, it's not done on every street corner, but it's not so rare or complicated that a well-resourced organisation can't get access to it or roll it out. A bit like real life in other words!

Except the Kroot can detect them via olfactory means, and the Tau have technology to cure a genestealer infection.

And...I was talking about humans? So...sure? My point here is that the Tau aren't particularly amazingly in advance of everyone else in this field; because what they're doing is bog standard enough that even the Imperium can do it. Superstititous or not.

 Ketara wrote:
If the Tau are routinely undertaking gene testing of everybody frequently enough to catch Genestealer taint on arrival, that has far more terrifying autocratic implications than the IOM's casual neglect of its citizenry.

No, and trying to imply that the Tau are less authoritarian, murderous, and cruel than the Imperium of Man is the epitome of a bad-faith argument. Remember, the Imperium just kills babies with deformities. Born intersex, with a cleft palette, or with a sixth finger? They'll kill you as a baby, while an Ecclesiarchical preacher opines that you deserved it and are evil from birth. And if your mother tries to intervene? They'll kill her too, probably try to torture her to death to prove a point.

Blimey, the goalposts almost just took my head off they flew over it so fast. Cool your heels and read my words.

To break it down exceedingly simply, my point was that the Imperium NOT gene-testing everyone on a regular basis is in fact, the norm. There's no reason to do it. You could argue that it should be done more than they likely do it (being a neglectful organisation at best) so as to check for health problems and things of that ilk. I highly doubt most citizens ever have it done at all. But really, there's no good or positive reason by to be routinely gene-testing your population on a monthly/yearly basis.Which is really what you'd need to be doing to catch genestealers before they could do any harm.

So if the Tau ARE gene testing that regularly (I don't know, but it's what was claimed), they have to have a more nefarious ulterior motive than simple good health/organisation. What that could be, I don't know. I suppose Tau could be susceptible to sudden genetic conditions or something that's never been mentioned that would make it necessary. But right now, on existing fluff, there'd be no cause for it.

I'm just pointing out that gene-testing isn't a particularly great accomplishment, and that there's no real reason why anyone (Imperium or Tau) should be gene-testing frequently enough to catch 'stealers without being given a reason to look.

The Imperium despite its propaganda to the contrary, actually does not have much control at all over some segments of its population, particularly on Hive worlds. If we use Necromunda as an example of a Hive world, it is explicitly said that the Imperial Governor and his government have no direct control over much of the population and there is no census. It is all decentralized, with the government only interacting at the level of the House (with Houses having the populations of modern day nations). It is entirely possible, even common, for someone to be born and live their entire life on Necromunda off the system without being tracked or registered with any Imperial organization.

That is why though the Imperium in theory has the means for genetic testing, it does not actually do so as a routine policy. When it does attempt to do so, it will be reactive and often far too ad hoc or too late. If the Imperium is also reliant on local power structures to do the testing, then these organizations are themselves susceptible to being infiltrated and subverted, with the Imperium being none the wiser.

Arson Fire wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
In a word, no. There's been multiple occasions in novels whereby once the infection is known, the Imperium initiates mass gene testing to weed them out. It's not a massively innovative piece of technlogy, Christ, we can do gene testing even today. It's more a case of 'Why would you routinely and securely scan the entire population for Genestealers when the Imperium is so big most people will never be within thirty systems of one?'.

Sure, we have tests for that *today*, but the Imperium is hopelessly backwards with respect to technology and how to implement it. A Magos Biologis would rather jealously guard a method of gene testing than allow it to be deployed en masse to help people. In any case, I'm not familiar with these novels; surely you can cite them?

I read my way through the Ciaphas Cain series recently, and can confirm it comes up several times in them.
One such instance:

Duty Calls wrote:
Broklaw nodded. ‘You don’t know the half of it. We’ve got nearly a thousand refugees trapped in the terminal building,’ he said. ‘Evacuated from lower down.’
‘Most of them have been stuck there for days,’ Kasteen added, ‘waiting for genetic screening to weed out any hybrids among them, but the justicars have been a bit too busy to deal with that.’

Those are hybrids they're testing for, not brood brothers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ketara wrote:
Blimey, the goalposts almost just took my head off they flew over it so fast. Cool your heels and read my words.

Nah. The argument that the the Imperium, which is too incompetent to implement widespread testing for alien infection, is better than the Tau *because* they don't implement it is bogus.

 Ketara wrote:
But really, there's no good or positive reason by to be routinely gene-testing your population on a monthly/yearly basis.Which is really what you'd need to be doing to catch genestealers before they could do any harm.

Maybe the "good reason" is genestealer cults.

 Ketara wrote:
So if the Tau ARE gene testing that regularly (I don't know, but it's what was claimed), they have to have a more nefarious ulterior motive than simple good health/organisation. What that could be, I don't know. I suppose Tau could be susceptible to sudden genetic conditions or something that's never been mentioned that would make it necessary. But right now, on existing fluff, there'd be no cause for it.

Why would the reason be nefarious? It sounds like you're working from the premise that the Tau do everything for evil reasons, when we know that that is very much less true of them than it is for the Imperium.

 Ketara wrote:
I'm just pointing out that gene-testing isn't a particularly great accomplishment, and that there's no real reason why anyone (Imperium or Tau) should be gene-testing frequently enough to catch 'stealers without being given a reason to look.

It isn't a particularly great accomplishment, no, but that doesn't reflect well on the Imperium's inability to do so.

The Tau are tiny. For every Tau world there are thousands of Imperial ones, for every Tau citizen there are millions of humans.

The Tau are playing a very different game than the IoM, a rising but ultimately irrelevant empire to an old and dying but still massive corpse of an empire.

Don’t forget there’s also Imperial Propaganda.

If a decent number of Imperial citizens knew just what sort of nasties were out there, the whole thing would go belly up.

Hence the Inquisition. A clandestine organisation with absolute authority to get the job done - who tend to prefer to investigate, and root it out where they find it. After all, culling a few hundred thousand citizens who might be infected, is a preferred option to having to repopulate a given planet (not that they shy away from that when necessary)

T'au have a lot of structural advantages over the Imperium that ranges from superior technology, controlled breeding due to their cast system, smaller size, heavy automatisation and extansive use of AI. Of course they don't suffer from the problems of a cleearly insane, decentralised, ultrareligious, immense human empire.

 Dysartes wrote:
The first Cain book also covers both Kroot detection of infection - taste test on corpses, not smell, and they don't seem to know much about Genestealers at the point the book is set (early 900.M41, from memory) - as well as the thing at the finale.

One of the other Cain books covers working with the Tau against the Tyranids, but I can't recall if there are further mentions of Genestealer infiltration one way or another in that one off the top of my head.

The first Cain book ends with Tau infected by Genestealers being given back to the Tau as Amberely hopes that a Hive Fleet will be drawn to them when the cult grow in the Empire rather than the Imperium - best to let two enemies fight each other.....

Hecaton wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
In a word, no. There's been multiple occasions in novels whereby once the infection is known, the Imperium initiates mass gene testing to weed them out. It's not a massively innovative piece of technlogy, Christ, we can do gene testing even today. It's more a case of 'Why would you routinely and securely scan the entire population for Genestealers when the Imperium is so big most people will never be within thirty systems of one?'.

Sure, we have tests for that *today*, but the Imperium is hopelessly backwards with respect to technology and how to implement it. A Magos Biologis would rather jealously guard a method of gene testing than allow it to be deployed en masse to help people. In any case, I'm not familiar with these novels; surely you can cite them?

I read my way through the Ciaphas Cain series recently, and can confirm it comes up several times in them.
One such instance:

Duty Calls wrote:
Broklaw nodded. ‘You don’t know the half of it. We’ve got nearly a thousand refugees trapped in the terminal building,’ he said. ‘Evacuated from lower down.’
‘Most of them have been stuck there for days,’ Kasteen added, ‘waiting for genetic screening to weed out any hybrids among them, but the justicars have been a bit too busy to deal with that.’

Those are hybrids they're testing for, not brood brothers.

They're screening for anyone with genestealer dna. That's why they're using genetic screening, and not just looking for suspicious dudes with 3 arms and ridged foreheads.
'Hybrids' is just a convenient term they use covering both infected people (brood brothers), and individuals from later generations.

Hecaton wrote:

Those are hybrids they're testing for, not brood brothers.

...you know screening someone's genetic material will flag the Genestealer dna presence, right? Whether I'm testing to see if you're 1/2, 1/4/ 1/8, or 1/32 Genestealer? In the same way if I merged you with a banana on a DNA level, the banana is going to show up.

Nah. The argument that the the Imperium, which is too incompetent to implement widespread testing for alien infection, is better than the Tau *because* they don't implement it is bogus.

See, there it is. The bit of the argument that you're mentally projecting onto the screen and imagining to argue with. So I'm going to be very very clear here.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE IMPERIUM ARE "BETTER" THAN TAU.* I am saying that genetic screening is not a rare technology, now, or in the imaginary 40Kverse, for Tau OR the Imperium. It's not a good hallmark of anything, anymore than both having painkillers is.

*asterisk to point out that "better" is such a ridiculous concept to bandying around here I can't believe I'm having to type that.

Maybe the "good reason" is genestealer cults.

Go back. Read my original comment, the one that you're projecting all over. You'll note that I said the following:-

It's more a case of 'Why would you routinely and securely scan the entire population for Genestealers when the Imperium is so big most people will never be within thirty systems of one?'.

There's your answer. Please don't make me repost it again. Otherwise it's less a conversation and more shouting into the void.

Why would the reason be nefarious? It sounds like you're working from the premise that the Tau do everything for evil reasons, when we know that that is very much less true of them than it is for the Imperium.

Because almost* every conceivable real life reason which would apply to humans would be nefarious. As my last post said though (again), I could conceive of a biological reason being written in that would make it not nefarious for Tau specifically. But as of right now, no such reason exists in the fluff.

*note the almost. I can conceive of a scant handful of not nefarious reasons, but they're in the 'Some sort of recurring hyper-infectious genetic-warping virus' category and not commonplace/routine which is what we're discussing.

It isn't a particularly great accomplishment, no, but that doesn't reflect well on the Imperium's inability to do so.

Given that so far the conversation has gone. 'Well, who knows if they have it? Prove it!' [proof given] 'Well, it could be a rare technology!' [proof to contrary given]. Saying now, 'Well, they must be incapable of it' without any evidence in that direction isn't quite the smashing retort you hoped it was.

Seriously mate, I don't know what your beef with me is, but take a chill pill.

Is there even evidence the Tau screen their populations that much? after all Tau GSC are a thing. They may be rare, but the Tau themselves are rare at the galactic scale Tyranids operate, so we cannot even say they are proportionally rarer.

The codex is extremely explicit about all of this.

The Orks have proven troublesome as hosts, for they can sense a wrongness in those infected, something that disturbs the strange gestalt of the greenskin mind. The Kroot are much the same, though their avoidance of infected members of their society comes from their ability to taste pheromones, and the wisdom of the Shapers who guide their people's evolution. The Aeldari have such lengthy gestation cycles that they are simply not viable biological hosts; furthermore, their psychic abilities are so well developed they can often see the shadow of the curse even before it can manifest and avoid it accordingly. The T'au have a connection with their Ethereal caste that makes infection by the Genestealers difficult. Only Humanity, so manifold and unruly in its civilisations, has as yet provided an ideal host.

Arson Fire wrote:

They're screening for anyone with genestealer dna. That's why they're using genetic screening, and not just looking for suspicious dudes with 3 arms and ridged foreheads.
'Hybrids' is just a convenient term they use covering both infected people (brood brothers), and individuals from later generations.

Given that a "hybrid" is something specific, I think not. Brood Brothers wouldn't even necessarily have genetic markers of infection in their non-reproductive cells.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ketara wrote:
...you know screening someone's genetic material will flag the Genestealer dna presence, right? Whether I'm testing to see if you're 1/2, 1/4/ 1/8, or 1/32 Genestealer? In the same way if I merged you with a banana on a DNA level, the banana is going to show up.

You do know that not all the cells in your own body have the same DNA, right, due to somatic mutations? And in the setting, there's a difference between a Brood Brother and a hybrid.

 Ketara wrote:
See, there it is. The bit of the argument that you're mentally projecting onto the screen and imagining to argue with. So I'm going to be very very clear here.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE IMPERIUM ARE "BETTER" THAN TAU.* I am saying that genetic screening is not a rare technology, now, or in the imaginary 40Kverse, for Tau OR the Imperium. It's not a good hallmark of anything, anymore than both having painkillers is.

*asterisk to point out that "better" is such a ridiculous concept to bandying around here I can't believe I'm having to type that.

I mean, the Imperium is really bad at implementing basic technology on a lot of their worlds, due to a combination of poor infrastructure and a priest class that jealously controls the spread of technology.

 Ketara wrote:
Go back. Read my original comment, the one that you're projecting all over. You'll note that I said the following:-

It's more a case of 'Why would you routinely and securely scan the entire population for Genestealers when the Imperium is so big most people will never be within thirty systems of one?'.

There's your answer. Please don't make me repost it again. Otherwise it's less a conversation and more shouting into the void.

Well, the point is that the Imperium doesn't even do it in sectors where they know there's been GSC activity.

 Ketara wrote:

Because almost* every conceivable real life reason which would apply to humans would be nefarious. As my last post said though (again), I could conceive of a biological reason being written in that would make it not nefarious for Tau specifically. But as of right now, no such reason exists in the fluff.

Mind controlling alien infection (i.e. Genstealer's kiss) is a great reason.

 Ketara wrote:


Given that so far the conversation has gone. 'Well, who knows if they have it? Prove it!' [proof given] 'Well, it could be a rare technology!' [proof to contrary given]. Saying now, 'Well, they must be incapable of it' without any evidence in that direction isn't quite the smashing retort you hoped it was.

Seriously mate, I don't know what your beef with me is, but take a chill pill.

You haven't proven anything here. The Imperium is barely able to defend itself from cults like this because it's so technologically backwards and incompetent.

Hecaton wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

Hecaton wrote:


Those are hybrids they're testing for, not brood brothers.

They're screening for anyone with genestealer dna. That's why they're using genetic screening, and not just looking for suspicious dudes with 3 arms and ridged foreheads.
'Hybrids' is just a convenient term they use covering both infected people (brood brothers), and individuals from later generations.

Given that a "hybrid" is something specific, I think not. Brood Brothers wouldn't even necessarily have genetic markers of infection in their non-reproductive cells.

Well if genetic testing isn't good enough, then I guess the tau's much vaunted genetic testing wouldn't work either.
You can't have it both ways.

You were saying that the imperials wouldn't genetically screen populations. Then asked for references from novels that showed otherwise. I provided that.
Now you're saying that somehow this genetic testing is insufficient to detect genestealer genetic material, despite the novels themselves saying that it is?
Your goalposts are flying backwards here.

Hey, while we're here, have another. This is from a scene where the main character is stopped at a road block following a cult uprising, where they are testing everyone who goes past:

The Emperor's Finest wrote:
'Of course not,' the sergeant agreed, stepping forwards, a trifle nervously, with a portable auspex. 'But if you wouldn't mind indulging me, sir? I'm sure you wouldn't want us to neglect our orders.'
'By no means,' I agreed, reholstering my laspistol and climbing down to the roadway so he could take his genescan a little more easily. The unit beeped, and a rune flashed green, after which everyone looked a little more comfortable.

Apparently it doesn't even take a tech priest to do this testing. They'll hand out scanners to random guard sergeants.

I dunno what's going on, but there's at least 2 posters that have been going on an "Imperium is bad and you should feel bad" hate spree on any subject that is remotely based around that and I don't get the vitriol given that it's a fictional empire. Not to mention that most people agree that the Imperium is generally a bad place to live in within our IRL context, so I don't who they're preaching to.

Arson Fire wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

Hecaton wrote:


Those are hybrids they're testing for, not brood brothers.

They're screening for anyone with genestealer dna. That's why they're using genetic screening, and not just looking for suspicious dudes with 3 arms and ridged foreheads.
'Hybrids' is just a convenient term they use covering both infected people (brood brothers), and individuals from later generations.

Given that a "hybrid" is something specific, I think not. Brood Brothers wouldn't even necessarily have genetic markers of infection in their non-reproductive cells.

Well if genetic testing isn't good enough, then I guess the tau's much vaunted genetic testing wouldn't work either.
You can't have it both ways.

You were saying that the imperials wouldn't genetically screen populations. Then asked for references from novels that showed otherwise. I provided that.
Now you're saying that somehow this genetic testing is insufficient to detect genestealer genetic material, despite the novels themselves saying that it is?
Your goalposts are flying backwards here.

Hey, while we're here, have another. This is from a scene where the main character is stopped at a road block following a cult uprising, where they are testing everyone who goes past:

The Emperor's Finest wrote:
'Of course not,' the sergeant agreed, stepping forwards, a trifle nervously, with a portable auspex. 'But if you wouldn't mind indulging me, sir? I'm sure you wouldn't want us to neglect our orders.'
'By no means,' I agreed, reholstering my laspistol and climbing down to the roadway so he could take his genescan a little more easily. The unit beeped, and a rune flashed green, after which everyone looked a little more comfortable.

Apparently it doesn't even take a tech priest to do this testing. They'll hand out scanners to random guard sergeants.

I think you're managing to talk waaaaay past each other.

For the Imperial testing, that's in a setting where they know or suspect that there's an infestation, so they've set up testing checkpoints. But no one goes around doing routine gene testing on hivers. Hell, why'd anyone want to go down that far to do that?

For the Tau, gene testing has been described as common and routine monitoring. And that monitoring has also been described in stories as being subverted by having the infestation start with the part of the population responsible for doing the monitoring. If it doesn't start there (or reach that part quickly), then it'll get discovered.

So once you're fighting an uprising or have some reason to suspect there's an infestation on an Imperial world, you can test for it. But you get infestations in Imperial worlds because there's no reason to do routine testing in the lower ends of the hives.

Hecaton wrote:

Given that a "hybrid" is something specific, I think not. Brood Brothers wouldn't even necessarily have genetic markers of infection in their non-reproductive cells....You do know that not all the cells in your own body have the same DNA, right, due to somatic mutations? And in the setting, there's a difference between a Brood Brother and a hybrid.

This has been largely addressed above. Not to mention the very commonsense retort of 'If I'm checking for genestealer genetic activity, I'll be checking for it at whatever level is appropriate and wherever is appropriate'. The Imperium is vast, and your average medical professional has no idea what a Genestealer even is. So no, they're not going to spot them unless they're deliberately looking for them. But that's kinda been part of my point all along, y'know?

I mean, the Imperium is really bad at implementing basic technology on a lot of their worlds, due to a combination of poor infrastructure and a priest class that jealously controls the spread of technology.

#
Sure. Perhaps on a primitive death world where guns are high tech, medical scanners are rarer. But any place that has any degree of sophistication (aka, electricity, basic medicine, etc) doesn't seem to have a problem with it

Well, the point is that the Imperium doesn't even do it in sectors where they know there's been GSC activity.

I gave a reference and someone else has posted one below.
But tell you what. You've demanded proof. It's been provided. Shoe's on the other foot. PROVE to me, with sources (book series is good enough) that the Imperium does not, as a rule of thumb, ever test for Genestealers even when they know they're there.

Mind controlling alien infection (i.e. Genstealer's kiss) is a great reason.

Sure, but you just invented that being common enough to require routine genetic sampling of every Tau in their population. Unless you've got a link? Because so far, you're busy building your own stack of unsourced cards here in the name of being contrary. Prove to me (as you're declaring) that the reason the Tau routinely test their entire population is to check for genestealer taint.

You haven't proven anything here. The Imperium is barely able to defend itself from cults like this because it's so technologically backwards and incompetent.

....I haven't proven anything?| You keep demanding sources and getting them. Sticking your fingers in your ears because you don't want to hear them doesn't sound convincing to anyone.

 solkan wrote:

I think you're managing to talk waaaaay past each other.

For the Imperial testing, that's in a setting where they know or suspect that there's an infestation, so they've set up testing checkpoints. But no one goes around doing routine gene testing on hivers. Hell, why'd anyone want to go down that far to do that?

There's a spot of missing context there with regards to the above source, namely the timeline. In that particular story, the 'Stealers have quite recently been discovered. It takes time to set up infrastructure to test a large population systematically without missing anything (coronavirus has shown that extremely well recently!) They'd probably get to the hivers in the end once the Inquisition got involved. I do recall reading several instances (though I couldn't say where) of the Inquisition systematically vetting and testing entire populations for Chaos taints. There's no reason that they couldn't do the same for 'Stealers if they can do it for Chaos (it's been proven the tech is available).

For the Tau, gene testing has been described as common and routine monitoring. And that monitoring has also been described in stories as being subverted by having the infestation start with the part of the population responsible for doing the monitoring. If it doesn't start there (or reach that part quickly), then it'll get discovered.

So once you're fighting an uprising or have some reason to suspect there's an infestation on an Imperial world, you can test for it. But you get infestations in Imperial worlds because there's no reason to do routine testing in the lower ends of the hives.

This however, I've been saying all along. The Imperium doesn't test routinely, because without confirmed Stealer activity, there's no need to go to the sort of logistical effort required. So sure, I completely agree.

Other problem with genetic screening?

How many humans are there, right now living on Earth?

If you Google it, you’ll find a number. But, it’s only a (admittedly well informed) guess. Because there’s no global census. And even national censuses rely on honesty.

In a given Hive, there toil untold billions of Citizens. How does one go about genetic screening in such a situation? Especially when fear of the mutant is rampant? How do you round them all up?

GSC are sneaky. They typically take their time, and show caution until they’ve secured influence and positions in the upper echelons of whatever power structure exists on their world. Their whole game is to not tip their hand until they’re ready - even when attacked, they only fully commit when it’s that, or face extinction.

So by the time there’s enough activity to be spotted? Genetic Screening isn’t really going to help. They’ll either dig in and hide, or be in a position to corrupt the results etc.

Now, genetic screening can be useful in very specific situations, such as where a cult is discovered and its leaders slain. They’ll be in enough disarray to not get their stuff together. And one can then screen the rest of the populace. Provided of course, it’s not a Forge or Hive World!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Other problem with genetic screening?

How many humans are there, right now living on Earth?

If you Google it, you’ll find a number. But, it’s only a (admittedly well informed) guess. Because there’s no global census. And even national censuses rely on honesty.

In a given Hive, there toil untold billions of Citizens. How does one go about genetic screening in such a situation? Especially when fear of the mutant is rampant? How do you round them all up?

GSC are sneaky. They typically take their time, and show caution until they’ve secured influence and positions in the upper echelons of whatever power structure exists on their world. Their whole game is to not tip their hand until they’re ready - even when attacked, they only fully commit when it’s that, or face extinction.

So by the time there’s enough activity to be spotted? Genetic Screening isn’t really going to help. They’ll either dig in and hide, or be in a position to corrupt the results etc.

Now, genetic screening can be useful in very specific situations, such as where a cult is discovered and its leaders slain. They’ll be in enough disarray to not get their stuff together. And one can then screen the rest of the populace. Provided of course, it’s not a Forge or Hive World!

Sure, I'm game for it being a fecking awful scenario that basically involves high powered auspex scans, giant concentration camps, and generally being a brutalist clusterfeth with a less than 100% success rate at complete extermination each time. That's the Imperium in a nutshell! To dig a case out of the lore in support of that, there's actually an excellent case in the Jaq Draco books; where he goes to a world where the whole population was screened for the taint and all the Genestealers supposedly purged. But it then turns out that some of them just left the population, dug into a local rocky barren mountain, and hid for the next few decades. So...less than ideal.

But that's a very different thing to 'Lol, they so dumb, they so primitive, what losers, ain't no way they have tech or means to do it'.

When you are an empire as big as the Imperium it is counterproductive to bring each world up to a certain level of technological advancement. Only the most or more important/strategic planets get to have that privilege. When you are having constant war being beset on all sides you need to have resources at particular areas and not simply spread out equally among your entire sectors. This is one example of why quality of technology/resources varies throughout the Empire.

Also there is one Genestealer Cult infestation in the Tau Empire that still is supposed to be ongoing under there slits/noses. Namely Ksi'm'yen:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ksi%27m%27yen
The way it ends by an "eccentric" Ethereal named Aun'ghol (own goal) declaring it "clean" makes one think that the cult survived and is bidding their time for another go at taking over the planet.

I personally would rather stay in the Imeprium than the Tau. Though my quality of life would vary depending on where & which circle I was born in.

The Tau Empire is an authoritarian empire with a "first among equals" inequality regarding its member species and a caste system.

That sucks, but I still would prefer to live under that system that at least gives lip service to its population's needs, because the IoM is worse.

The IoM is a failing and dying empire only held by blood and momentum. It is not authoritarian, but that is because it doesn't really has a functioning government.

So between an authoritarian but pragmatic and functional regime and a failed war-torn state, I prefer the oppressive regime that at least gives me the reassurance of a warm meal and a roof over my head.

 Dysartes wrote:


Nah. that's just the typical Tau bull$%^& coming into play.

There's someone in the Studio whose job appears to be applying handwavium to any potential issue the Tau might have. It gets old very, very fast.

It is necessary for the setting. The Imperium IS supposed to be inefficient, downright careless of it's people if not actively brutalizing it, and (primarines and other writer-ex-machina tech nonwithstanding) looking more technologically inferior than the others because only good tech is reserved for killing others, not helping it's citizens live longer or be more productive. You NEED the backdrop of civilization that have their s**t together to fully display it in fiction and lore.

 Grimskul wrote:
I dunno what's going on, but there's at least 2 posters that have been going on an "Imperium is bad and you should feel bad" hate spree on any subject that is remotely based around that and I don't get the vitriol given that it's a fictional empire. Not to mention that most people agree that the Imperium is generally a bad place to live in within our IRL context, so I don't who they're preaching to.

Mmm, it's because there are people who take a Candide-like approach to the Imperium, in that it's the ideal government given how horrible the 40k setting is. That's easily rejected and people who support that have questionable motives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
The Tau Empire is an authoritarian empire with a "first among equals" inequality regarding its member species and a caste system.

That sucks, but I still would prefer to live under that system that at least gives lip service to its population's needs, because the IoM is worse.

The IoM is a failing and dying empire only held by blood and momentum. It is not authoritarian, but that is because it doesn't really has a functioning government.

So between an authoritarian but pragmatic and functional regime and a failed war-torn state, I prefer the oppressive regime that at least gives me the reassurance of a warm meal and a roof over my head.

I don't think you can in good faith call the Imperium non-authoritarian. Most people in it are basically slaves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arson Fire wrote:

Well if genetic testing isn't good enough, then I guess the tau's much vaunted genetic testing wouldn't work either.
You can't have it both ways.

Yeah I can. The Tau's screening protocols tend to catch the infested; the Imperium's don't. That's there in the fluff.

Arson Fire wrote:
You were saying that the imperials wouldn't genetically screen populations. Then asked for references from novels that showed otherwise. I provided that.
Now you're saying that somehow this genetic testing is insufficient to detect genestealer genetic material, despite the novels themselves saying that it is?
Your goalposts are flying backwards here.

No, I'm saying that the Imperium only screens reactively, the Tau screen proactively.

 Ketara wrote:

This has been largely addressed above. Not to mention the very commonsense retort of 'If I'm checking for genestealer genetic activity, I'll be checking for it at whatever level is appropriate and wherever is appropriate'. The Imperium is vast, and your average medical professional has no idea what a Genestealer even is. So no, they're not going to spot them unless they're deliberately looking for them. But that's kinda been part of my point all along, y'know?

The issue is that the Imperium can fail at multiple levels - transmitting the level of the threat of Genestealer infestation to their different worlds, and again, you can always have some power-hungry Magos deciding he doesn't want to implement that tech for political reasons, or the Ecclesiarchy suddenly declares that only faith alone can protect you from the xenos influence and burns all of the medical equipment... the Tau don't have the majority of those issues. Moreover, the Tau have their gak together enough to scan proactively, not just reactively.

Hecaton wrote:
I don't think you can in good faith call the Imperium non-authoritarian. Most people in it are basically slaves.

Generally when I see it referred to as non-authoritarian, it's because Terra and the Administratum generally don't care that much what individual Planetary Governors do so long as they pay their tithes and aren't too hugely incompetent.

The Inquisition might play closer attention to what's going on, especially when it comes to trade with Xenos or potential corruption by Chaos, but Terra is fairly hands-off.

 Dysartes wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I don't think you can in good faith call the Imperium non-authoritarian. Most people in it are basically slaves.

Generally when I see it referred to as non-authoritarian, it's because Terra and the Administratum generally don't care that much what individual Planetary Governors do so long as they pay their tithes and aren't too hugely incompetent.

The Inquisition might play closer attention to what's going on, especially when it comes to trade with Xenos or potential corruption by Chaos, but Terra is fairly hands-off.

I allways imagined that:
The superstructure of the megastate of the imperium of man, is, hands off feudalism.

So long the tithes flow, the duties are fullfilled then the imperium doesn't / can't care about most planets, a hands off approach is therefore better for them in order to not have constant issues with local rule, however it also has a bunch of institutions to tie it together, last but not least the ecclesiarchy.

The Chapters, are more like knights, in a way, they get granted a fief or are on "Wanderschaft" and the peasants aka worlds have to sustain them. The needless cruelty comes then in mostly on a local level and too high tithes. etc. And is due to the clusterfeth of expanse highly corrupt in itself.

Hence why Chaos cults and Genestealers have it often quite easy to infiltrate the average world.

 Ketara wrote:
...you know screening someone's genetic material will flag the Genestealer dna presence, right? Whether I'm testing to see if you're 1/2, 1/4/ 1/8, or 1/32 Genestealer? In the same way if I merged you with a banana on a DNA level, the banana is going to show up.

DNA. screening. does. not. work. like. that.

It's not some magical scrying that picks up everything in a sample. It picks up DNA, and if it would pick up a banana, it's because it has DNA too. Tyranids don't. Their genetic information is completely alien and you genetic test would ignore it, just as it ignores all other impurities in a sample. Otherwise it would be completely useless - in fact, some scientists suspect genetic screening is so bad at picking up alternative genetic information to the point there might be a second, 'shadow' biosphere on Earth right now and we're failing to detect it with even best tests even though it's related to us because it evolved on the same planet, not flew in from another galaxy.

Then there is the fact you're dealing with insanely advanced, ancient, impossibly intelligent organism that mastered genetic code to the point even Eldar and Necrons pale next to it. What gives you idea whatever it produced would be easy to detect? For all we know, tyranid genetic information of genestealers instantly disintegrates outside of body. Or is hidden in the host DNA in changes so subtle you have no chance of detecting them (say, atoms might be the same but extra genetic information is hidden in energy state or number of electrons they have, etc, etc, or broadcasted from the patriarch using genestealer telepathy, or any number of other methods that might also depend on host capabilities). Or mutations are hidden in brain and no amount of blood and flesh testing will detect them. Or any number of other reasons, I have no idea why people assume utterly primitive (even compared to IoM) Tau come even close to outsmarting and outplaying one of the oldest and most powerful races around...

 Irbis wrote:
Or any number of other reasons, I have no idea why people assume utterly primitive (even compared to IoM) Tau come even close to outsmarting and outplaying one of the oldest and most powerful races around...

The Tau's attitude towards technology is anything but primitive compared to the IoM.

Hecaton wrote:
The Tau's attitude towards technology is anything but primitive compared to the IoM.

I am not talking about their attitude, I am talking about technology. It's downright crude compared to literally everyone else. Even orks. Being all shiny and glowy doesn't make it advanced - sure, they do understand it, but a simple meltagun probably has technologies in it Tau won't even dream of in the next couple centuries or millennia. They can try and cheat equivalent with brute force but their nearest equivalent, fusion gun, is big, bulky, expensive, devours tons of energy, can be only used by suits, and is weaker and shorter ranged (which used to be the case on table, too, until some Tau fanboy started to inflate their stats every edition). Repeat for every technology they use.

And their attitude is even more dangerous and crude. They look at Imperium and Orks and think 'lul look at these primitives' which makes them overlook both use technologies created by civilizations on a level Tau can't even dream of, both are quadrillions of times more numerous than Tau, and basically make them behave like a kid poking the butt of a bear with a nail. Which only works due to stupid amounts of plot shield and the fact their enemies always grab idiot ball fighting them even if their usual tactic would beat Tau handily...

Ok that is getting ridiculous. Yes the Tau, despite appearances, are the less technologically advanced race. But they make it up with standardization and pragmatism and constant R&D.

Their weapons are less energy dense than the other factions? so they deploy larger weapons and built larger battlesuits, and they do so on industrialized large scale so such weapons are common sight.

Everyone else, with the exception of the Tyranids, has a schizophrenic approach to technology: The IoM literally has a dogmatic techno-religion that replaced science. Orks are entirely dependent on what crazy fancy their Meks are on that day. Eldar have forgotten and lost so much tech. Even the Necrons are divided, with every Dynasty and Cryptek having a "feth you, got mine" mentality so not a lot of tech-sharing.

Yeah Tau are one of the few races who are advancing their technology and advancing it at a very accelerated rate. In a few thousand years they went from "Primitives using stones" to a force that can compete with the Imperium. Right now Tau's main weakness isn't technology so much as it is simple raw numbers. Any of the major races could destroy Tau rather easily simply through weight of numbers (perhaps excepting Genestealer Cults and Dark Eldar). It's simply plot armour of being out on a limb of the Galaxy and being ignored and then a few well placed warp storms and such which have protected the Tau.


The Metlagun might have superior technology inside it, but the Imperium won't dismantle it to understand it. The Tau will. They will dismantle them, pull them apart and attempt to replicate and understand that technology. Then they'll aim to improve it!

 Irbis wrote:

I am not talking about their attitude, I am talking about technology. It's downright crude compared to literally everyone else. Even orks. Being all shiny and glowy doesn't make it advanced - sure, they do understand it, but a simple meltagun probably has technologies in it Tau won't even dream of in the next couple centuries or millennia. They can try and cheat equivalent with brute force but their nearest equivalent, fusion gun, is big, bulky, expensive, devours tons of energy, can be only used by suits, and is weaker and shorter ranged (which used to be the case on table, too, until some Tau fanboy started to inflate their stats every edition). Repeat for every technology they use.

Nope. They always had the Eldar-tier plasma weaponry, for example, before some Imperial fanboy broke the fluff and gave the humans superior plasma weaponry. Before that humans had more powerful, but less stable, plasma weaponry, compared to Tau and Eldar. Going back to the original 2001 Tau codex, the fusion blaster was statted exactly the same as the Imperial Meltaguns, so you're entirely offbase about it being "weaker and shorter ranged." The only faction that has consistently seen its stats increase over the editions is Astartes, to the point that Necrons' statline had to be nerfed so that Astartes wouldn't seen to be inferior 1-on-1 to them (which they were in late 2e when Necrons were introduced).

Just the fact that the Tau can mass-produce pulse rifles, a weapon that is superior in every meaningful way to the boltgun, a weapon that the Imperium can only put on their elite troops, shows that their technology is rapidly outstripping the IoM's.

 Irbis wrote:
And their attitude is even more dangerous and crude. They look at Imperium and Orks and think 'lul look at these primitives' which makes them overlook both use technologies created by civilizations on a level Tau can't even dream of, both are quadrillions of times more numerous than Tau, and basically make them behave like a kid poking the butt of a bear with a nail. Which only works due to stupid amounts of plot shield and the fact their enemies always grab idiot ball fighting them even if their usual tactic would beat Tau handily...

I think their attitude about other races being primitives has more to do with the Imperium being absolutely morally and ethically bankrupt compared to the Tau, and also having tactics that Luigi Cadorna would consider wasteful.

Overall, it's also worth noting that technology is not a ladder, it is a web. Setting aside any potential psychic fuckery with Ork technology, and the fact that Meks are amazing engineers but gakky scientists, Ork force field and especially teleportation technology eclipses that of the other races in the setting, but their warp travel infrastructure/tech is inferior to the other races' in the setting excepting the Tau. Tau weaponry and propulsion seems to be superior to most other races, but their lack of psychic potential in their species has severely hampered their ability to develop countermeasures to things like demons and enemy psykers, whereas the Imperium has Null Rods and so on. What *is* consistent in the Imperium is that the AdMech jealously guards scientific and technical knowledge and considers what we would think in the real world to be progress to be heresy punishable by death, whereas the Tau have what you could call a scientific community that shares information and allows advances on one world to be rapidly implemented on another. In that sense, it seems almost inevitable that the Tau's technology base will eclipse the Imperium's rapidly even if their infrastructure and material levels won't.

There are probably a fair few alien genestealer cults out there, it's just that they're aliens restricted to one planet or one system with little interstellar relevance so there at least won't be much in the way of models for them.

Out of the galactic players, humans happen to be the best targets.


Has there ever been a WD article on how different host species influence the look of the purebred genestealer? That'd be interesting.

 Ketara wrote:
There's one Eldar book where it turns out the locals turned into Hybrids so as to avoid having their souls swallowed by Slaanesh. Decent enough read. Shows that it's certainly possible.

What's the title of that book?

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
There's one Eldar book where it turns out the locals turned into Hybrids so as to avoid having their souls swallowed by Slaanesh. Decent enough read. Shows that it's certainly possible.

What's the title of that book?

It's one of the 'Rise of the Ynnari' ones - Ghost Warrior?

I forget which of the GSC books mention it, but there's another large factor in why humanity is so susceptible to cults: Humanity still(for the most part) has family units. Other species don't have the same connection to their offspring as humanity does: T'au children are raised by the Sept, Eldar offspring are rare, Dark Eldar prefer to propagate through cloning to keep Trueborn lines "clean", Orks are raised by their clan, etc. As such, humanity as a whole is more willing to protect and hide hybrids, mutants, etc. even if they know they're illegal/hunted.

The Deathwatch short story "Machine Spirit" features a kroot kindred compromised by a genestealer cult. So that's an example of it happening.

Also, there is an example of a Tau stealer cult in the old Inquisitor board game - the Tau Water Caste Negotiator character's background included the following:

"Shortly after the Ria'tan Convocation, Por'la uncovered information relating to a nascent Tyrannic cult within the families of Tash'va. The cult had perverted the T'au life-ritual of the Ta'lissera, a sacred bonding ceremony, into something far worse that culminated in the Genestealer's kiss."

The cult in question can't have been too large, because the purge he led involved a carnivore squad "armed to the teeth" from a fire caste armoury, meaning it was of a scale that 20 dudes with pulse carbines could deal with it provided they didn't care about collateral damage.

 Ketara wrote:
There's one Eldar book where it turns out the locals turned into Hybrids so as to avoid having their souls swallowed by Slaanesh. Decent enough read. Shows that it's certainly possible.

A neat idea. Was it successful? I suppose they're protected by the psychic blackout, right?

It was successful on protecting them from Slaanesh.

Speaking of Chaos, while Daemons are immune for obvious reasons, Genestealer Cults can be successful on worlds that are controlled by Chaos and inhabited by Chaos aligned mortals.

 Tyran wrote:
It was successful on protecting them from Slaanesh.

Speaking of Chaos, while Daemons are immune for obvious reasons, Genestealer Cults can be successful on worlds that are controlled by Chaos and inhabited by Chaos aligned mortals.

And CSM too, right? Thanks for answering.

It's probably been said, but the GSC codex actually talks about this:

Eldar have a very long reproductive cycle, making it difficult for the cult to properly reproduce. They're also all innately psychic, making it near impossible for the cult & its members to mask their presence and avoid discovery.

Dark Eldar have the gestation problem but not the psychic one. But the gestation one is a really huge issue, so it's one they may not be able to viably over-come in as crazed and violent a place as the Dark City.

Orks are numerous and disorganized, but passively root out 'un-orky' individuals with extreme prejudice. So while good on the surface, it's difficult for a cult to properly take root or spread.

Tau are functional hosts, however the lack of squalor / friction within their society can make it difficult for a cult to properly recruit & spread.

Humans are numerous, individualistic, and horrifically oppressed. This combined with their physical aspects (relatively gestation, decent amounts of physical variance) makes them ideal hosts. It's incredibly easy for a cult to begin in the deepest parts of human civilization, and that cult is likely to encounter many willing converts as it spreads unnoticed to the byzantine organization of human society.

Basically most races can be converted into Genestealer Cults, but many of them are degrees of difficult (or non-feasible in the case of Eldar) while humans are near perfect.

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
It was successful on protecting them from Slaanesh.

Speaking of Chaos, while Daemons are immune for obvious reasons, Genestealer Cults can be successful on worlds that are controlled by Chaos and inhabited by Chaos aligned mortals.

And CSM too, right? Thanks for answering.

Astartes of any stripe make for poor long-term hosts.

Not only do they not breed (stymying the overall infection, as Brood Brothers cannot create more Brood Brothers directly), but given the close bonds, any unusual behaviour would be detected. Chapters and Traitors are also likely better informed about the threat posed by Genestealers, so one assumes there is genetic testing etc done after every action - particularly where only a few survive against the odds.

An interesting question is what, if anything, the gene curse does to gene seed. I’ve either forgotten about or never read background relating to such. It may be that nobody knows because due to the assumed testing, it’s never really been allowed to come to fruition.

In general summary? For a successful infiltration, the nascent cult needs....

1. The initial infection
2. A reasonably dense populace
3. A species which propagates with reliable frequency
4. A society with a social structure to be influenced and infiltrate.

Humanity more than covers these four loose requirements. Even if the initial Brood Brothers don’t hail from a suitably dense populace, humanity is always on the move. So within a relatively short period, they can travel to a world perhaps better suited (even infecting the crew of a transport ship)

There’s also an entirely hypothetical 5 - a species already predisposed to psychic members. Because it’s through psychic channels that the Patriarch maintains its influence, and eventually summons the Hive Fleet.

Why hypothetical? When it comes to Hybrids, they’re of varying degrees of Genestealer, which are an inherently psychic species. But if the parent species isn’t psychic? Who knows what the end result might be. It could be non-psychic Hybrids, or it could be the Genestealer part takes care of it entirely. It may also be the infection needs to be spread far wider for the same desired effect in a naturally psychic species. And indeed everything in between.

Again, humanity fulfils that requirement in spades. Indeed, given how many psychics are outcasts, they provide decent candidates for the Kiss - and I think we can reasonably assume the Patriarch’s influence would be sufficient to stop them using their talents in more dangerous, warp rift opening ways. After all, it’s the gene they’re mostly after, rather than any individuals given ability with that gene.

I suppose there’s also an associated threat of infecting a species which is too psychic. I mean if there’s any kind of low level psychic connection between the species members, there’s a distinct risk the alien thoughts and impulses compelling the Brood Brother’s actions and behaviour.

Humanity. We’re just the Goldilocks zone for Genestealers.

And real galaxy brain thinking? It could simply be our prolifigation throughout the Galaxy has influenced the Purestrain Genestealer? Possibly locked them in on us as the ideal host, despite being (theoretically) more flexible in the past?

locarno24 wrote:
The Deathwatch short story "Machine Spirit" features a kroot kindred compromised by a genestealer cult. So that's an example of it happening.

Is that the one where they crash the Thuderhawk and the Techmarine wanders off?

So my big question: Can a Sister of Battle "purify" herself through an act of faith, and rid herself of the parasite organism?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So my big question: Can a Sister of Battle "purify" herself through an act of faith, and rid herself of the parasite organism?

Possibly - but would she want to? Even is she knows she's infected she'd be under it's influence...

There's a tech-priest in one of the Cain novels who's infected but doesn't consciously know - but still avoids diagnostics, scans, etc. that would reveal it.

Cult of the Spiral Dawn, and its prequel short story Casts a Hungry Shadow, have an infected Sister of Battle.

Faith alone is a poor shield against the kiss.

beast_gts wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So my big question: Can a Sister of Battle "purify" herself through an act of faith, and rid herself of the parasite organism?

Possibly - but would she want to? Even is she knows she's infected she'd be under it's influence...

There's a tech-priest in one of the Cain novels who's infected but doesn't consciously know - but still avoids diagnostics, scans, etc. that would reveal it.

Indeed. Being able to do something about it, and actually doing something about it, let alone being willing, are quite different things. And I dare say a source of constant frustration for parents of teenagers

The Kiss goes further, as it is actively subverting the will of the infected.

If you cannot want to do something, you basically cannot do it.

beast_gts wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
The Deathwatch short story "Machine Spirit" features a kroot kindred compromised by a genestealer cult. So that's an example of it happening.

Is that the one where they crash the Thuderhawk and the Techmarine wanders off?

That's the one.

Faith alone is a poor shield against the kiss.

Best example is the short story Incorruptible.
In it, a grey knight kill team turns up heavy-handed because they have confused reports that a grey knight ship has been attacked, and during the attack the brotherhood champion has gone bezerk and started slaughtering his battlebrothers.

They're afraid this is a daemonic incursion and it was the first/only case of a grey knight falling to chaos. It wasn't: it was a stealer infestation and the 'corruption' not daemonic but a literal case of biochemical xenomatter in the guy's brain hijacking his nervous system

I would have thought that Ork reproduction would be an interesting twist and probably more useful to a genestealer. If the gs managed to smuggle an infected Ork onto a humie planet;

An infected Ork eventually dies and releases their spores propogating several (dozens/hundreds?) of new orkoid hybrids. When each of those die, they release more hybrid spores until eventually purestrain genestealers erupt from the fungal pods.

Just think you could have hybrid snots, squigs, grots, orks and Squiggoths.

Depends if the Genestealer’s seed pod thing can affect Orky biology in that way?

It can, Ork hybrids are a thing after all.

The issue is that healthy Orks can instinctively detect hybrids, but I guess if there are only infected Orks that wouldn't be an issue.

I wonder if the way orks reproduce might be a threat to Tyranids; orks reproduce at a very fast rate and any reproduction would come with a risk of mutation. It might be that imperfect Tyranid infestation could result in imperfect mutation before the Tyranid genes can fully take control. So you could end up with a bunch of hybrids that are controlled by neither parent race and yet which embody the powers and strengths of both.

 Tyran wrote:
It can, Ork hybrids are a thing after all.

The issue is that healthy Orks can instinctively detect hybrids, but I guess if there are only infected Orks that wouldn't be an issue.

Ork Hybrids were a thing. But, that was from the Rogue Trader era, where Orks reproduced at the end of their life, wandering off into the horizon, never to be seen again.

Since then we’ve had GorkaMorka, which explained the sporing method, which also explained the ‘Orkiforming’ of planets.

And in Rogue Trader, Squigs were all the Hive Mind could create with Ork DNA, as it had already been engineered (Brainboyz and/or Old Sloan) to such a heavy degree, it could be worked much further.

That last bit was changed in the......third, I think, edition Nid Codex, where it was at least postulated that Biovores were the result of Ork DNA being absorbed.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
It can, Ork hybrids are a thing after all.

The issue is that healthy Orks can instinctively detect hybrids, but I guess if there are only infected Orks that wouldn't be an issue.

Ork Hybrids were a thing. But, that was from the Rogue Trader era, where Orks reproduced at the end of their life, wandering off into the horizon, never to be seen again.

They still are, the GSC codex had an Ork Gargant with four arms deploying a brood of Genestealers. And of course the Kryptman's Gambit was dependent on Genestealers being able to create Ork GSCs that would draw Leviathan into fighting the Orks.

Must’ve missed that.

To the library!

 Tyran wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
It can, Ork hybrids are a thing after all.

The issue is that healthy Orks can instinctively detect hybrids, but I guess if there are only infected Orks that wouldn't be an issue.

Ork Hybrids were a thing. But, that was from the Rogue Trader era, where Orks reproduced at the end of their life, wandering off into the horizon, never to be seen again.

They still are, the GSC codex had an Ork Gargant with four arms deploying a brood of Genestealers. And of course the Kryptman's Gambit was dependent on Genestealers being able to create Ork GSCs that would draw Leviathan into fighting the Orks.

And one of the Cain books has Ork hybrids in a space hulk (and even Cain can spot there's something 'wrong' with them).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
It was successful on protecting them from Slaanesh.

Speaking of Chaos, while Daemons are immune for obvious reasons, Genestealer Cults can be successful on worlds that are controlled by Chaos and inhabited by Chaos aligned mortals.

And CSM too, right? Thanks for answering.

Astartes of any stripe make for poor long-term hosts.

Not only do they not breed (stymying the overall infection, as Brood Brothers cannot create more Brood Brothers directly), but given the close bonds, any unusual behaviour would be detected. Chapters and Traitors are also likely better informed about the threat posed by Genestealers, so one assumes there is genetic testing etc done after every action - particularly where only a few survive against the odds.

An interesting question is what, if anything, the gene curse does to gene seed. I’ve either forgotten about or never read background relating to such. It may be that nobody knows because due to the assumed testing, it’s never really been allowed to come to fruition.

In general summary? For a successful infiltration, the nascent cult needs....

1. The initial infection
2. A reasonably dense populace
3. A species which propagates with reliable frequency
4. A society with a social structure to be influenced and infiltrate.

Humanity more than covers these four loose requirements. Even if the initial Brood Brothers don’t hail from a suitably dense populace, humanity is always on the move. So within a relatively short period, they can travel to a world perhaps better suited (even infecting the crew of a transport ship)

There’s also an entirely hypothetical 5 - a species already predisposed to psychic members. Because it’s through psychic channels that the Patriarch maintains its influence, and eventually summons the Hive Fleet.

Why hypothetical? When it comes to Hybrids, they’re of varying degrees of Genestealer, which are an inherently psychic species. But if the parent species isn’t psychic? Who knows what the end result might be. It could be non-psychic Hybrids, or it could be the Genestealer part takes care of it entirely. It may also be the infection needs to be spread far wider for the same desired effect in a naturally psychic species. And indeed everything in between.

Again, humanity fulfils that requirement in spades. Indeed, given how many psychics are outcasts, they provide decent candidates for the Kiss - and I think we can reasonably assume the Patriarch’s influence would be sufficient to stop them using their talents in more dangerous, warp rift opening ways. After all, it’s the gene they’re mostly after, rather than any individuals given ability with that gene.

I suppose there’s also an associated threat of infecting a species which is too psychic. I mean if there’s any kind of low level psychic connection between the species members, there’s a distinct risk the alien thoughts and impulses compelling the Brood Brother’s actions and behaviour.

Humanity. We’re just the Goldilocks zone for Genestealers.

And real galaxy brain thinking? It could simply be our prolifigation throughout the Galaxy has influenced the Purestrain Genestealer? Possibly locked them in on us as the ideal host, despite being (theoretically) more flexible in the past?

Gotcha, thanks for filling me in. I'm a bit out of the loop on GSC fluff, the only exposure I have is through the Vigilus books.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So my big question: Can a Sister of Battle "purify" herself through an act of faith, and rid herself of the parasite organism?

Probably not, but Sororitas's "faith" has been shown to be lore-breaking before (i.e. Pariah Nexus stuff) so who knows.

locarno24 wrote:

Best example is the short story Incorruptible.
In it, a grey knight kill team turns up heavy-handed because they have confused reports that a grey knight ship has been attacked, and during the attack the brotherhood champion has gone bezerk and started slaughtering his battlebrothers.

They're afraid this is a daemonic incursion and it was the first/only case of a grey knight falling to chaos. It wasn't: it was a stealer infestation and the 'corruption' not daemonic but a literal case of biochemical xenomatter in the guy's brain hijacking his nervous system

I've also read sources that state that the Astartes immune system fights off the kiss. So it may be a thing to do with changing fluff or authors who don't talk to one another.

I feel it is worth pointing out that 40k has countless sapient zeno species, most simply haven't expanded beyond a single system or even their home planet. It is reasonable to assume that a number of these have become GSC and subsequently devoured. But because their presence is so small this end point renders them extinct, and their presence on a galactic scale meant so little that it isn't even worth mentioning in the fluff.

Hecaton wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

Best example is the short story Incorruptible.
In it, a grey knight kill team turns up heavy-handed because they have confused reports that a grey knight ship has been attacked, and during the attack the brotherhood champion has gone bezerk and started slaughtering his battlebrothers.

They're afraid this is a daemonic incursion and it was the first/only case of a grey knight falling to chaos. It wasn't: it was a stealer infestation and the 'corruption' not daemonic but a literal case of biochemical xenomatter in the guy's brain hijacking his nervous system

I've also read sources that state that the Astartes immune system fights off the kiss. So it may be a thing to do with changing fluff or authors who don't talk to one another.

'Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work' also has kissed Marines.

Hecaton wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So my big question: Can a Sister of Battle "purify" herself through an act of faith, and rid herself of the parasite organism?

Probably not, but Sororitas's "faith" has been shown to be lore-breaking before (i.e. Pariah Nexus stuff) so who knows.

locarno24 wrote:

Best example is the short story Incorruptible.
In it, a grey knight kill team turns up heavy-handed because they have confused reports that a grey knight ship has been attacked, and during the attack the brotherhood champion has gone bezerk and started slaughtering his battlebrothers.

They're afraid this is a daemonic incursion and it was the first/only case of a grey knight falling to chaos. It wasn't: it was a stealer infestation and the 'corruption' not daemonic but a literal case of biochemical xenomatter in the guy's brain hijacking his nervous system

I've also read sources that state that the Astartes immune system fights off the kiss. So it may be a thing to do with changing fluff or authors who don't talk to one another.

The sister's faith would be compromised; she would have faith but in the 'Star Gods' 'Four Armed Emperor' etc. She wouldn't view the infection as something to be purged in the first place.

As for marines being infected, consider that in real life people can have equal exposure to disease but very different results. Some individuals don't catch it because their immune system fights it off, others get sick. That such would apply to marines with genestealer infection makes perfect sense. I like that better than them being flat out immune/not immune.

locarno24 wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
The Deathwatch short story "Machine Spirit" features a kroot kindred compromised by a genestealer cult. So that's an example of it happening.

Is that the one where they crash the Thuderhawk and the Techmarine wanders off?

That's the one.

I thought they'd mutated due to eating 'Nids, but re-reading it they do get called hybrids... (but they also call flying Kroot Stingwings rather than Vultures - Stingwings are Vespids).

Hecaton wrote:
I've also read sources that state that the Astartes immune system fights off the kiss. So it may be a thing to do with changing fluff or authors who don't talk to one another.

Do you have them?

In addition to the ones already mentioned, Dark Disciple has a World Bearer infected and mercy killed. In The Emperor's Finests Cain theorizes about it, and Amberley further states that not only the Astartes but the geneseed would be infected.

Even if they are vulnerable to the Kiss, of course, they ain't going to be reproducing - leaves us with effectively Brood Battle Brothers, but no hybrid generations, correct?

 Dysartes wrote:
Even if they are vulnerable to the Kiss, of course, they ain't going to be reproducing - leaves us with effectively Brood Battle Brothers, but no hybrid generations, correct?

Correct, although accordingly to Amberley the curse could be transmitted by infected geneseed.

Still infected Astartes would make very dangerous Brood Brothers.

 Tyran wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Even if they are vulnerable to the Kiss, of course, they ain't going to be reproducing - leaves us with effectively Brood Battle Brothers, but no hybrid generations, correct?

Correct, although accordingly to Amberley the curse could be transmitted by infected geneseed.

Still infected Astartes would make very dangerous Brood Brothers.

You may have just come up with an idea for a homebrew chapter!

 Tyran wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I've also read sources that state that the Astartes immune system fights off the kiss. So it may be a thing to do with changing fluff or authors who don't talk to one another.

Do you have them?

Sure, it's the Deathwatch stuff (which was written by FFG but vetted by GW).

There's also the greater question of why they're sending Terminators in to Space Hulks full of Genestealers if they can be infected.

The Kiss functions by the Oviposter inserting a organism into the host, which slowly reprograms their genetic code. There's no reason a Space Marine would be immune to this, as it's not a traditional virus or bacteria based pathogen.

At the same time, a Space Marine biology has greater defences against it which can buy time. For example, they can put themselves into catatonic states which slow their heartbeat and bloodflow. If nothing is moving naturally in the body, it will make it harder for any externally inserted mechanism to spread throughout it.

Alternatively, they're less susceptible to the physical trauma/biological shock of the oviposter doing its work, which means that they have more time to comm an Apothecary 'Hey, you'll never guess what that weird alien just put into me'. Which in turns buys time to have it removed. Their mental indoctrination/various biological stimulants/psychic hoods/other devices also ward off the 'transfixion' effect the Genestealer relies on to immobilise the prey prior to implantation.

Essentially, the Genestealers have to render the Space Marines unconscious for a period in order to have any chance of implanting them successfully and for the payload to have sufficient time to extract. Which given Marine biology, is easier said than done. It's not impossible, but it is difficult, especially in a battlefield sitution where Marines are rarely alone.

 Ketara wrote:
The Kiss functions by the Oviposter inserting a organism into the host, which slowly reprograms their genetic code. There's no reason a Space Marine would be immune to this, as it's not a traditional virus or bacteria based pathogen.

Our immune system attacks things like tapeworms that are inside our body, too, which is why tapeworms suppress the immune system of their hosts. If an Astartes has a jacked up immune system, it might be enough to fight off whatever it is.

 Ketara wrote:
Essentially, the Genestealers have to render the Space Marines unconscious for a period in order to have any chance of implanting them successfully and for the payload to have sufficient time to extract. Which given Marine biology, is easier said than done. It's not impossible, but it is difficult, especially in a battlefield sitution where Marines are rarely alone.

I get all that, but I'm talking about their immune system and biology.

The fluff for mission four in space hulk features a space marine who has been attacked and apparently 'kissed' multiple times. He seems to be infected to the extent that his body has started mutating.
Which is unusual, but maybe the number of times he has been 'kissed' has expanded the genetic mutations, to give him some features of a hybrid. Or maybe the process just works differently on space marines.

Lorenzo moved into the room, stepping past Deino. Scraps of red armour littered the chamber and a severed servo arm twitched in one corner, gouging a furrow into the tiles of the floor. Auletio sat with his back propped against the wall. His armour had been stripped away in many places and blood trickled from a gash across his face.

It was not the injuries to the Techmarine that had caused Deino such dismay, it was the rest of his appearance.

Even in the dim and flickering light, Lorenzo could see that the Techmarine's flesh had a bluish tint to it. Auletio's skin was pocked with lesions and oddly shaped protuberances bulged underneath his pale skin. His veins were like thick cords across his arms and neck, and his face was distorted. His eyes bulged and ridges were breaking through the skin of his brow. A lone fang punctured his upper lip, curving up towards his nose.

There was intelligence in Auletio's eyes, and terror. It was something Lorenzo had never seen in the eyes of another Space Marine. Auletio weakly raised an arm and groaned. Yellowish ichor oozed from his wounds, mixed with his thick blood. "Brother," he sighed, "End this. I am beyond salvation."

Arson Fire wrote:
The fluff for mission four in space hulk features a space marine who has been attacked and apparently 'kissed' multiple times. He seems to be infected to the extent that his body has started mutating.
Which is unusual, but maybe the number of times he has been 'kissed' has expanded the genetic mutations, to give him some features of a hybrid. Or maybe the process just works differently on space marines.

Lorenzo moved into the room, stepping past Deino. Scraps of red armour littered the chamber and a severed servo arm twitched in one corner, gouging a furrow into the tiles of the floor. Auletio sat with his back propped against the wall. His armour had been stripped away in many places and blood trickled from a gash across his face.

It was not the injuries to the Techmarine that had caused Deino such dismay, it was the rest of his appearance.

Even in the dim and flickering light, Lorenzo could see that the Techmarine's flesh had a bluish tint to it. Auletio's skin was pocked with lesions and oddly shaped protuberances bulged underneath his pale skin. His veins were like thick cords across his arms and neck, and his face was distorted. His eyes bulged and ridges were breaking through the skin of his brow. A lone fang punctured his upper lip, curving up towards his nose.

There was intelligence in Auletio's eyes, and terror. It was something Lorenzo had never seen in the eyes of another Space Marine. Auletio weakly raised an arm and groaned. Yellowish ichor oozed from his wounds, mixed with his thick blood. "Brother," he sighed, "End this. I am beyond salvation."

Creepy. But interesting. Nice find!

Wow that was a really good three paragraphs.

Because WH40K is more or less telling the story from Imperium of Man's perspective. So the human GSC individuals are much more notable than other "Galatic local "Xenos hybrid.

Hecaton wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
The Kiss functions by the Oviposter inserting a organism into the host, which slowly reprograms their genetic code. There's no reason a Space Marine would be immune to this, as it's not a traditional virus or bacteria based pathogen.

Our immune system attacks things like tapeworms that are inside our body, too, which is why tapeworms suppress the immune system of their hosts. If an Astartes has a jacked up immune system, it might be enough to fight off whatever it is.

Think about it. If an immune system could fight it off, what would be the first thing that the Genestealer package would reprogram? Tapeworms don't have the ability to modify how your immune system identifies what is alien and what is not. I could accept the Astartes immune system slowing it down, and like I've said, there are various other biological responses an Astartes can consciously invoke to further delay things.

But delay is the key word, as the example above shows. They retain a greater sense of self and awareness than the average human, time enough perhaps to get the organism removed or themselves terminated. But it's only a matter of time before it becomes irreversible. Your immune system cannot ultimately fight off something that reprograms the immune system itself.

Well it can, because it can fight off the reprogramming. Every human immune system must deal with this in a way, because reprogramming host cells is literally the only thing viruses do. For the kiss in particular, a rapid isolation of the parasite could prevent it from ever altering the host's genetics. It may not ever get the chance to compromise the immune system. It is entirely possible that a Marine's body is capable of resisting it outright.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It may not ever get the chance to compromise the immune system. It is entirely possible that a Marine's body is capable of resisting it outright.

But...we have multiple fluff examples to prove that this isn't true. So no. It can't. Space Marine physiology can be subverted by the kiss given sufficient time. Or at least, classical Marines. Who knows for Primaris?

Its like you guys have never even heard of the Patriork.

GenestealWaaagh! cult...

 Ketara wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It may not ever get the chance to compromise the immune system. It is entirely possible that a Marine's body is capable of resisting it outright.

But...we have multiple fluff examples to prove that this isn't true. So no. It can't. Space Marine physiology can be subverted by the kiss given sufficient time. Or at least, classical Marines. Who knows for Primaris?

As I explained before, it isn't binary. Immune systems don't work like that. You can give 10 humans the same exposure to the same parasite and get 10 different results. I am just explaining the possibility, and saying that we don't really know because there's no definitive statement in the fluff.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It may not ever get the chance to compromise the immune system. It is entirely possible that a Marine's body is capable of resisting it outright.

But...we have multiple fluff examples to prove that this isn't true. So no. It can't. Space Marine physiology can be subverted by the kiss given sufficient time. Or at least, classical Marines. Who knows for Primaris?

As I explained before, it isn't binary. Immune systems don't work like that. You can give 10 humans the same exposure to the same parasite and get 10 different results.

The difference in this case is that unlike humans and RL parasites which are the product of natural selection, both Astartes and Genestealers are designed weapons. There is going to be far less variance.

Moreover such variance wouldn't be immunity, just resistance, as increased exposure will overwhelm even resistant immune systems.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It may not ever get the chance to compromise the immune system. It is entirely possible that a Marine's body is capable of resisting it outright.

But...we have multiple fluff examples to prove that this isn't true. So no. It can't. Space Marine physiology can be subverted by the kiss given sufficient time. Or at least, classical Marines. Who knows for Primaris?

As I explained before, it isn't binary. Immune systems don't work like that. You can give 10 humans the same exposure to the same parasite and get 10 different results. I am just explaining the possibility, and saying that we don't really know because there's no definitive statement in the fluff.

Fair enough, but that's like wading into a thread on 'Can Genestealers infect base humans' and going 'Yeah, but one human in a bajillion might have some super special immunity, so until GW states it to be 100%, we shouldn't assume'. We know they can infect Space Marines. We've seen it. Going 'Yeah, but is it EVERY Space Marine though really?' just feels like hair splitting for the sake of hair splitting.

beast_gts wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
The Deathwatch short story "Machine Spirit" features a kroot kindred compromised by a genestealer cult. So that's an example of it happening.

Is that the one where they crash the Thuderhawk and the Techmarine wanders off?

That's the one.

I thought they'd mutated due to eating 'Nids, but re-reading it they do get called hybrids... (but they also call flying Kroot Stingwings rather than Vultures - Stingwings are Vespids).

That sounds like an author who didn't actually do his research on cannon and hence should be discarded, I've noticed that a lot of the short stories fly in the face of cannon lore often minor things but it's why I have always considered Short stories as non valid source material for anything.

Highlights
Marines armed with lasguns
Battlesuits used in space being vulnerable to gas attacking the pilot through the seals
Think they also had choas worshiping orks in one aswell which sounds wrong to me.

It isn't that the author didn't do his research, but rather that it is quite old lore that doesn't fit the current setting.

 Tyran wrote:
It isn't that the author didn't do his research, but rather that it is quite old lore that doesn't fit the current setting.

Calling flying Kroot Vespid,
Flying kroot exsisted from the launch of the Tau as a faction and were never referred to as stingwings

Vespid where added much later as a destinct species and thats when stingwings became a thing.
He's clearly had not done enough research to actually get it correct.

 Tyran wrote:
Speaking of Chaos, while Daemons are immune for obvious reasons, Genestealer Cults can be successful on worlds that are controlled by Chaos and inhabited by Chaos aligned mortals.

That could be an interesting story. What if there was a Genestealer uprising on Sicarus, Medrengard, the Plague Planet, or Sortiarius? Medrengard could be especially interesting given its high industrial capacity could give the cultists access to lots of weapons. In another thread, I posted the idea of beastmen and mutant GSC; tzaangors and bestigors running around with Tyranid bioweapons and multiple arms and such.

 Ketara wrote:

Think about it. If an immune system could fight it off, what would be the first thing that the Genestealer package would reprogram?

Sure, but that reprogramming itself could be fought off.

 Ketara wrote:
Tapeworms don't have the ability to modify how your immune system identifies what is alien and what is not. I could accept the Astartes immune system slowing it down, and like I've said, there are various other biological responses an Astartes can consciously invoke to further delay things.

No, but cancer cells do, and our immune system fights those off all the time.

 Ketara wrote:
But delay is the key word, as the example above shows. They retain a greater sense of self and awareness than the average human, time enough perhaps to get the organism removed or themselves terminated. But it's only a matter of time before it becomes irreversible.

I mean that's one short story. There's other lore that says the opposite.

 Ketara wrote:
Your immune system cannot ultimately fight off something that reprograms the immune system itself.

Yes it can.

Ice_can wrote:
Flying kroot exsisted from the launch of the Tau as a faction and were never referred to as stingwings

The Vultures turned up in the Kroot Mercenaries list in WD - with a fez, no less - but I don't recall them getting mentioned in the original Tau codex.

 Dysartes wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Flying kroot exsisted from the launch of the Tau as a faction and were never referred to as stingwings

The Vultures turned up in the Kroot Mercenaries list in WD - with a fez, no less - but I don't recall them getting mentioned in the original Tau codex.

Flying kroot were mentioned in some of the background fluff about Pech, it was more of a throw away one liner.

Also I think though might be wrong did the vespid of the mercenaries WD come first?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Speaking of Chaos, while Daemons are immune for obvious reasons, Genestealer Cults can be successful on worlds that are controlled by Chaos and inhabited by Chaos aligned mortals.

That could be an interesting story. What if there was a Genestealer uprising on Sicarus, Medrengard, the Plague Planet, or Sortiarius? Medrengard could be especially interesting given its high industrial capacity could give the cultists access to lots of weapons. In another thread, I posted the idea of beastmen and mutant GSC; tzaangors and bestigors running around with Tyranid bioweapons and multiple arms and such.

In the original fluff GSC could be Chaos-aligned (and gain boons), and I think there's a Nurgle infected Cult mentioned in the codex.

 Dysartes wrote:
Even if they are vulnerable to the Kiss, of course, they ain't going to be reproducing - leaves us with effectively Brood Battle Brothers, but no hybrid generations, correct?

Well supposing an Astartes Apothecary was infected and under the influence. He could then infect the gene seed removed from dead marines before putting it into new ones. Thus propagating the cult within a chapter. Probably have to be one that's relatively small, or in a battle group somewhat cut off, but theoretically possible. Certainly not easy though for sure.

Ice_can wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Flying kroot exsisted from the launch of the Tau as a faction and were never referred to as stingwings

The Vultures turned up in the Kroot Mercenaries list in WD - with a fez, no less - but I don't recall them getting mentioned in the original Tau codex.

Flying kroot were mentioned in some of the background fluff about Pech, it was more of a throw away one liner.

Also I think though might be wrong did the vespid of the mercenaries WD come first?

From memory, the Kroot Mercs list in WD (and later collected into Chapter Approved) was published before the second iteration of the Tau codex, which is when the Vespid were introduced (I think - they were definitely a Codex introduction, not a WD one).

Completely coincidentally, just saw this for a new miniature being released (A 'cudbear' and Genestealer hybrid)

 Ketara wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It may not ever get the chance to compromise the immune system. It is entirely possible that a Marine's body is capable of resisting it outright.

But...we have multiple fluff examples to prove that this isn't true. So no. It can't. Space Marine physiology can be subverted by the kiss given sufficient time. Or at least, classical Marines. Who knows for Primaris?

As I explained before, it isn't binary. Immune systems don't work like that. You can give 10 humans the same exposure to the same parasite and get 10 different results. I am just explaining the possibility, and saying that we don't really know because there's no definitive statement in the fluff.

Fair enough, but that's like wading into a thread on 'Can Genestealers infect base humans' and going 'Yeah, but one human in a bajillion might have some super special immunity, so until GW states it to be 100%, we shouldn't assume'. We know they can infect Space Marines. We've seen it. Going 'Yeah, but is it EVERY Space Marine though really?' just feels like hair splitting for the sake of hair splitting.

I get what you are saying, but I disagree with the conclusion. I don't think there is enough evidence on the Space Marine side to make the call; our sample size is not large enough. We know they CAN be affected, I am not contesting that, but I don't feel what we have to draw on is sufficient enough to say we *know* the effect on Marines. Put in other words, we know there is an affect and we know some symptoms that can be there, but we don't know how common those symptoms are or how many others there may be. We are assuming based on what we have, rather than knowing because it has been stated/used repeatedly in official material.

And that is before factoring in ret-cons and plain old author-getting-stuff-wrong; when it comes to small details only present in a few novels & short stories there is a long history with 40k of such being off by various degrees. Compare to a detail like 'can Tyranids survive warp travel on a space hulk?' It is never explicitly stated, but we still justifiably conclude that they can via the abundant evidence available.