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 Dysartes wrote:
Even if they are vulnerable to the Kiss, of course, they ain't going to be reproducing - leaves us with effectively Brood Battle Brothers, but no hybrid generations, correct?

Correct, although accordingly to Amberley the curse could be transmitted by infected geneseed.

Still infected Astartes would make very dangerous Brood Brothers.

 Tyran wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Even if they are vulnerable to the Kiss, of course, they ain't going to be reproducing - leaves us with effectively Brood Battle Brothers, but no hybrid generations, correct?

Correct, although accordingly to Amberley the curse could be transmitted by infected geneseed.

Still infected Astartes would make very dangerous Brood Brothers.

You may have just come up with an idea for a homebrew chapter!

 Tyran wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I've also read sources that state that the Astartes immune system fights off the kiss. So it may be a thing to do with changing fluff or authors who don't talk to one another.

Do you have them?

Sure, it's the Deathwatch stuff (which was written by FFG but vetted by GW).

There's also the greater question of why they're sending Terminators in to Space Hulks full of Genestealers if they can be infected.

The Kiss functions by the Oviposter inserting a organism into the host, which slowly reprograms their genetic code. There's no reason a Space Marine would be immune to this, as it's not a traditional virus or bacteria based pathogen.

At the same time, a Space Marine biology has greater defences against it which can buy time. For example, they can put themselves into catatonic states which slow their heartbeat and bloodflow. If nothing is moving naturally in the body, it will make it harder for any externally inserted mechanism to spread throughout it.

Alternatively, they're less susceptible to the physical trauma/biological shock of the oviposter doing its work, which means that they have more time to comm an Apothecary 'Hey, you'll never guess what that weird alien just put into me'. Which in turns buys time to have it removed. Their mental indoctrination/various biological stimulants/psychic hoods/other devices also ward off the 'transfixion' effect the Genestealer relies on to immobilise the prey prior to implantation.

Essentially, the Genestealers have to render the Space Marines unconscious for a period in order to have any chance of implanting them successfully and for the payload to have sufficient time to extract. Which given Marine biology, is easier said than done. It's not impossible, but it is difficult, especially in a battlefield sitution where Marines are rarely alone.

 Ketara wrote:
The Kiss functions by the Oviposter inserting a organism into the host, which slowly reprograms their genetic code. There's no reason a Space Marine would be immune to this, as it's not a traditional virus or bacteria based pathogen.

Our immune system attacks things like tapeworms that are inside our body, too, which is why tapeworms suppress the immune system of their hosts. If an Astartes has a jacked up immune system, it might be enough to fight off whatever it is.

 Ketara wrote:
Essentially, the Genestealers have to render the Space Marines unconscious for a period in order to have any chance of implanting them successfully and for the payload to have sufficient time to extract. Which given Marine biology, is easier said than done. It's not impossible, but it is difficult, especially in a battlefield sitution where Marines are rarely alone.

I get all that, but I'm talking about their immune system and biology.

The fluff for mission four in space hulk features a space marine who has been attacked and apparently 'kissed' multiple times. He seems to be infected to the extent that his body has started mutating.
Which is unusual, but maybe the number of times he has been 'kissed' has expanded the genetic mutations, to give him some features of a hybrid. Or maybe the process just works differently on space marines.

Lorenzo moved into the room, stepping past Deino. Scraps of red armour littered the chamber and a severed servo arm twitched in one corner, gouging a furrow into the tiles of the floor. Auletio sat with his back propped against the wall. His armour had been stripped away in many places and blood trickled from a gash across his face.

It was not the injuries to the Techmarine that had caused Deino such dismay, it was the rest of his appearance.

Even in the dim and flickering light, Lorenzo could see that the Techmarine's flesh had a bluish tint to it. Auletio's skin was pocked with lesions and oddly shaped protuberances bulged underneath his pale skin. His veins were like thick cords across his arms and neck, and his face was distorted. His eyes bulged and ridges were breaking through the skin of his brow. A lone fang punctured his upper lip, curving up towards his nose.

There was intelligence in Auletio's eyes, and terror. It was something Lorenzo had never seen in the eyes of another Space Marine. Auletio weakly raised an arm and groaned. Yellowish ichor oozed from his wounds, mixed with his thick blood. "Brother," he sighed, "End this. I am beyond salvation."

Arson Fire wrote:
The fluff for mission four in space hulk features a space marine who has been attacked and apparently 'kissed' multiple times. He seems to be infected to the extent that his body has started mutating.
Which is unusual, but maybe the number of times he has been 'kissed' has expanded the genetic mutations, to give him some features of a hybrid. Or maybe the process just works differently on space marines.

Lorenzo moved into the room, stepping past Deino. Scraps of red armour littered the chamber and a severed servo arm twitched in one corner, gouging a furrow into the tiles of the floor. Auletio sat with his back propped against the wall. His armour had been stripped away in many places and blood trickled from a gash across his face.

It was not the injuries to the Techmarine that had caused Deino such dismay, it was the rest of his appearance.

Even in the dim and flickering light, Lorenzo could see that the Techmarine's flesh had a bluish tint to it. Auletio's skin was pocked with lesions and oddly shaped protuberances bulged underneath his pale skin. His veins were like thick cords across his arms and neck, and his face was distorted. His eyes bulged and ridges were breaking through the skin of his brow. A lone fang punctured his upper lip, curving up towards his nose.

There was intelligence in Auletio's eyes, and terror. It was something Lorenzo had never seen in the eyes of another Space Marine. Auletio weakly raised an arm and groaned. Yellowish ichor oozed from his wounds, mixed with his thick blood. "Brother," he sighed, "End this. I am beyond salvation."

Creepy. But interesting. Nice find!

Wow that was a really good three paragraphs.

Because WH40K is more or less telling the story from Imperium of Man's perspective. So the human GSC individuals are much more notable than other "Galatic local "Xenos hybrid.

Hecaton wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
The Kiss functions by the Oviposter inserting a organism into the host, which slowly reprograms their genetic code. There's no reason a Space Marine would be immune to this, as it's not a traditional virus or bacteria based pathogen.

Our immune system attacks things like tapeworms that are inside our body, too, which is why tapeworms suppress the immune system of their hosts. If an Astartes has a jacked up immune system, it might be enough to fight off whatever it is.

Think about it. If an immune system could fight it off, what would be the first thing that the Genestealer package would reprogram? Tapeworms don't have the ability to modify how your immune system identifies what is alien and what is not. I could accept the Astartes immune system slowing it down, and like I've said, there are various other biological responses an Astartes can consciously invoke to further delay things.

But delay is the key word, as the example above shows. They retain a greater sense of self and awareness than the average human, time enough perhaps to get the organism removed or themselves terminated. But it's only a matter of time before it becomes irreversible. Your immune system cannot ultimately fight off something that reprograms the immune system itself.

Well it can, because it can fight off the reprogramming. Every human immune system must deal with this in a way, because reprogramming host cells is literally the only thing viruses do. For the kiss in particular, a rapid isolation of the parasite could prevent it from ever altering the host's genetics. It may not ever get the chance to compromise the immune system. It is entirely possible that a Marine's body is capable of resisting it outright.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It may not ever get the chance to compromise the immune system. It is entirely possible that a Marine's body is capable of resisting it outright.

But...we have multiple fluff examples to prove that this isn't true. So no. It can't. Space Marine physiology can be subverted by the kiss given sufficient time. Or at least, classical Marines. Who knows for Primaris?

Its like you guys have never even heard of the Patriork.

GenestealWaaagh! cult...

 Ketara wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It may not ever get the chance to compromise the immune system. It is entirely possible that a Marine's body is capable of resisting it outright.

But...we have multiple fluff examples to prove that this isn't true. So no. It can't. Space Marine physiology can be subverted by the kiss given sufficient time. Or at least, classical Marines. Who knows for Primaris?

As I explained before, it isn't binary. Immune systems don't work like that. You can give 10 humans the same exposure to the same parasite and get 10 different results. I am just explaining the possibility, and saying that we don't really know because there's no definitive statement in the fluff.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It may not ever get the chance to compromise the immune system. It is entirely possible that a Marine's body is capable of resisting it outright.

But...we have multiple fluff examples to prove that this isn't true. So no. It can't. Space Marine physiology can be subverted by the kiss given sufficient time. Or at least, classical Marines. Who knows for Primaris?

As I explained before, it isn't binary. Immune systems don't work like that. You can give 10 humans the same exposure to the same parasite and get 10 different results.

The difference in this case is that unlike humans and RL parasites which are the product of natural selection, both Astartes and Genestealers are designed weapons. There is going to be far less variance.

Moreover such variance wouldn't be immunity, just resistance, as increased exposure will overwhelm even resistant immune systems.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It may not ever get the chance to compromise the immune system. It is entirely possible that a Marine's body is capable of resisting it outright.

But...we have multiple fluff examples to prove that this isn't true. So no. It can't. Space Marine physiology can be subverted by the kiss given sufficient time. Or at least, classical Marines. Who knows for Primaris?

As I explained before, it isn't binary. Immune systems don't work like that. You can give 10 humans the same exposure to the same parasite and get 10 different results. I am just explaining the possibility, and saying that we don't really know because there's no definitive statement in the fluff.

Fair enough, but that's like wading into a thread on 'Can Genestealers infect base humans' and going 'Yeah, but one human in a bajillion might have some super special immunity, so until GW states it to be 100%, we shouldn't assume'. We know they can infect Space Marines. We've seen it. Going 'Yeah, but is it EVERY Space Marine though really?' just feels like hair splitting for the sake of hair splitting.

beast_gts wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
The Deathwatch short story "Machine Spirit" features a kroot kindred compromised by a genestealer cult. So that's an example of it happening.

Is that the one where they crash the Thuderhawk and the Techmarine wanders off?

That's the one.

I thought they'd mutated due to eating 'Nids, but re-reading it they do get called hybrids... (but they also call flying Kroot Stingwings rather than Vultures - Stingwings are Vespids).

That sounds like an author who didn't actually do his research on cannon and hence should be discarded, I've noticed that a lot of the short stories fly in the face of cannon lore often minor things but it's why I have always considered Short stories as non valid source material for anything.

Highlights
Marines armed with lasguns
Battlesuits used in space being vulnerable to gas attacking the pilot through the seals
Think they also had choas worshiping orks in one aswell which sounds wrong to me.

It isn't that the author didn't do his research, but rather that it is quite old lore that doesn't fit the current setting.

 Tyran wrote:
It isn't that the author didn't do his research, but rather that it is quite old lore that doesn't fit the current setting.

Calling flying Kroot Vespid,
Flying kroot exsisted from the launch of the Tau as a faction and were never referred to as stingwings

Vespid where added much later as a destinct species and thats when stingwings became a thing.
He's clearly had not done enough research to actually get it correct.

 Tyran wrote:
Speaking of Chaos, while Daemons are immune for obvious reasons, Genestealer Cults can be successful on worlds that are controlled by Chaos and inhabited by Chaos aligned mortals.

That could be an interesting story. What if there was a Genestealer uprising on Sicarus, Medrengard, the Plague Planet, or Sortiarius? Medrengard could be especially interesting given its high industrial capacity could give the cultists access to lots of weapons. In another thread, I posted the idea of beastmen and mutant GSC; tzaangors and bestigors running around with Tyranid bioweapons and multiple arms and such.

 Ketara wrote:

Think about it. If an immune system could fight it off, what would be the first thing that the Genestealer package would reprogram?

Sure, but that reprogramming itself could be fought off.

 Ketara wrote:
Tapeworms don't have the ability to modify how your immune system identifies what is alien and what is not. I could accept the Astartes immune system slowing it down, and like I've said, there are various other biological responses an Astartes can consciously invoke to further delay things.

No, but cancer cells do, and our immune system fights those off all the time.

 Ketara wrote:
But delay is the key word, as the example above shows. They retain a greater sense of self and awareness than the average human, time enough perhaps to get the organism removed or themselves terminated. But it's only a matter of time before it becomes irreversible.

I mean that's one short story. There's other lore that says the opposite.

 Ketara wrote:
Your immune system cannot ultimately fight off something that reprograms the immune system itself.

Yes it can.

Ice_can wrote:
Flying kroot exsisted from the launch of the Tau as a faction and were never referred to as stingwings

The Vultures turned up in the Kroot Mercenaries list in WD - with a fez, no less - but I don't recall them getting mentioned in the original Tau codex.

 Dysartes wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Flying kroot exsisted from the launch of the Tau as a faction and were never referred to as stingwings

The Vultures turned up in the Kroot Mercenaries list in WD - with a fez, no less - but I don't recall them getting mentioned in the original Tau codex.

Flying kroot were mentioned in some of the background fluff about Pech, it was more of a throw away one liner.

Also I think though might be wrong did the vespid of the mercenaries WD come first?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Speaking of Chaos, while Daemons are immune for obvious reasons, Genestealer Cults can be successful on worlds that are controlled by Chaos and inhabited by Chaos aligned mortals.

That could be an interesting story. What if there was a Genestealer uprising on Sicarus, Medrengard, the Plague Planet, or Sortiarius? Medrengard could be especially interesting given its high industrial capacity could give the cultists access to lots of weapons. In another thread, I posted the idea of beastmen and mutant GSC; tzaangors and bestigors running around with Tyranid bioweapons and multiple arms and such.

In the original fluff GSC could be Chaos-aligned (and gain boons), and I think there's a Nurgle infected Cult mentioned in the codex.

 Dysartes wrote:
Even if they are vulnerable to the Kiss, of course, they ain't going to be reproducing - leaves us with effectively Brood Battle Brothers, but no hybrid generations, correct?

Well supposing an Astartes Apothecary was infected and under the influence. He could then infect the gene seed removed from dead marines before putting it into new ones. Thus propagating the cult within a chapter. Probably have to be one that's relatively small, or in a battle group somewhat cut off, but theoretically possible. Certainly not easy though for sure.

Ice_can wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Flying kroot exsisted from the launch of the Tau as a faction and were never referred to as stingwings

The Vultures turned up in the Kroot Mercenaries list in WD - with a fez, no less - but I don't recall them getting mentioned in the original Tau codex.

Flying kroot were mentioned in some of the background fluff about Pech, it was more of a throw away one liner.

Also I think though might be wrong did the vespid of the mercenaries WD come first?

From memory, the Kroot Mercs list in WD (and later collected into Chapter Approved) was published before the second iteration of the Tau codex, which is when the Vespid were introduced (I think - they were definitely a Codex introduction, not a WD one).

Completely coincidentally, just saw this for a new miniature being released (A 'cudbear' and Genestealer hybrid)

 Ketara wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It may not ever get the chance to compromise the immune system. It is entirely possible that a Marine's body is capable of resisting it outright.

But...we have multiple fluff examples to prove that this isn't true. So no. It can't. Space Marine physiology can be subverted by the kiss given sufficient time. Or at least, classical Marines. Who knows for Primaris?

As I explained before, it isn't binary. Immune systems don't work like that. You can give 10 humans the same exposure to the same parasite and get 10 different results. I am just explaining the possibility, and saying that we don't really know because there's no definitive statement in the fluff.

Fair enough, but that's like wading into a thread on 'Can Genestealers infect base humans' and going 'Yeah, but one human in a bajillion might have some super special immunity, so until GW states it to be 100%, we shouldn't assume'. We know they can infect Space Marines. We've seen it. Going 'Yeah, but is it EVERY Space Marine though really?' just feels like hair splitting for the sake of hair splitting.

I get what you are saying, but I disagree with the conclusion. I don't think there is enough evidence on the Space Marine side to make the call; our sample size is not large enough. We know they CAN be affected, I am not contesting that, but I don't feel what we have to draw on is sufficient enough to say we *know* the effect on Marines. Put in other words, we know there is an affect and we know some symptoms that can be there, but we don't know how common those symptoms are or how many others there may be. We are assuming based on what we have, rather than knowing because it has been stated/used repeatedly in official material.

And that is before factoring in ret-cons and plain old author-getting-stuff-wrong; when it comes to small details only present in a few novels & short stories there is a long history with 40k of such being off by various degrees. Compare to a detail like 'can Tyranids survive warp travel on a space hulk?' It is never explicitly stated, but we still justifiably conclude that they can via the abundant evidence available.