Just writing this as follow on from the discussions in news and rumours.
Over the last week we've seen daemon engines having increases in BS/WS after 5 editions of being static following the possessed vehicle fluff of 3rd/4th.
We've seen core given to death company but not wulfen or necron destroyers who are arguably no less "core" to a force.
When 9th was previewed, someone coined it "40k: competitive edition". Personally it's starting to feel that fluff considerations are being put aside in favour of making the maths of the game smoother, more competitively focused.
I think it SHOULD be that way but I don't think it is that way. These decisions are being made arbitrarily more or less. It's not like necrons didn't get fair treatment of their "CORE" units and the the SM have all but the kitchen sink in their CORE.
Demon engines hitting on 4's never really had a lore reason for it. It just was.
Just because GW is changing the status quo in 9th doesn't mean the setting is changing that much.
A unit having a specific keyword doesnt change the setting, it simply helps balance the game to make it more enjoyable, much like demon engines getting buffed.
You still can play fluff-accurate lists if you want.
Demon engines hitting on 4's never really had a lore reason for it. It just was.
Just because GW is changing the status quo in 9th doesn't mean the setting is changing that much.
A unit having a specific keyword doesnt change the setting, it simply helps balance the game to make it more enjoyable, much like demon engines getting buffed.
You still can play fluff-accurate lists if you want.
It depends if you assume or believe the core keyword to actually represent something. If they just want a rules toggle then that's one thing, but the use of the term suggests that core units are those that form the backbone of an army. Which is often very subjective.
Demon engines hitting on 4's never really had a lore reason for it. It just was.
Just because GW is changing the status quo in 9th doesn't mean the setting is changing that much.
A unit having a specific keyword doesnt change the setting, it simply helps balance the game to make it more enjoyable, much like demon engines getting buffed.
You still can play fluff-accurate lists if you want.
There was plenty of lore reason for it, and all GW had to do was keep up the esoteric wargear (like with the Maulerfiend having its tendrils or melta attachments) and keep them at a competitive price point.
As a CSM player, it's completely stupid.
It depends if you assume or believe the core keyword to actually represent something. If they just want a rules toggle then that's one thing, but the use of the term suggests that core units are those that form the backbone of an army. Which is often very subjective.
yeah, but the keyword existing doesnt prevent you from running non-core units, therefore the fluff of your army isnt deleted.
There was plenty of lore reason for it, and all GW had to do was keep up the esoteric wargear (like with the Maulerfiend having its tendrils or melta attachments) and keep them at a competitive price point.
As a CSM player, it's completely stupid.
What lore reason? That theyre demons and all demons must hit on 4+?
I'm a CSM player too and one of the main complaints ive seen about demon engines is that they hit on 4+ which is why they were rarely played (or only one per army since they kinda needed demonforge to work).
It's a good buff to the unit to fix its main problem, making them cheaper at bw/ws 4+ wouldnt do anything expect force people to spam them.
It depends if you assume or believe the core keyword to actually represent something. If they just want a rules toggle then that's one thing, but the use of the term suggests that core units are those that form the backbone of an army. Which is often very subjective.
yeah, but the keyword existing doesnt prevent you from running non-core units, therefore the fluff of your army isnt deleted.
There was plenty of lore reason for it, and all GW had to do was keep up the esoteric wargear (like with the Maulerfiend having its tendrils or melta attachments) and keep them at a competitive price point.
As a CSM player, it's completely stupid.
What lore reason? That theyre demons and all demons must hit on 4+?
I'm a CSM player too and one of the main complaints ive seen about demon engines is that they hit on 4+ which is why they were rarely played (or only one per army since they kinda needed demonforge to work).
It's a good buff to the unit to fix its main problem, making them cheaper at bw/ws 4+ wouldnt do anything expect force people to spam them.
Possessed vehicles in previous editions reduced its BS due to not having a grasp on the material universe etc.
You then have the fact the daemons themselves don't necessarily hit on 3's
But if the argument is "make them all hit on 3's to make them more powerful", isn't that watering down the setting/rules of the last 5 editions?
Ultimately increased bs/ws will need increased points also, rendering the gain less useful.
I don't know whether it's justified in the lore or not but I'm not sure making models more and more elite is a good direction for the game.
It seems like there are too many models and too few ways to meaningfully differentiate them, especially given how shallow the current rules are. And the constant power creep really isn't helping matters.
In my opinion.. Having Daemonically possessed vehicles that hit on 4+ was a tradeoff for the other benefits possessed vehicles had in earlier editions.
For example, ignoring shaken and stunned results on the old damage tables meant that you couldn't stun-lock them like other vehicles. The trade-off for more reliability was that you didn't hit as often.
Having gone away from that model of damage... there's no real reason to have them stuck at 4+ to hit.
greatbigtree wrote: In my opinion.. Having Daemonically possessed vehicles that hit on 4+ was a tradeoff for the other benefits possessed vehicles had in earlier editions.
For example, ignoring shaken and stunned results on the old damage tables meant that you couldn't stun-lock them like other vehicles. The trade-off for more reliability was that you didn't hit as often.
Having gone away from that model of damage... there's no real reason to have them stuck at 4+ to hit.
The 5++ and regen (as low as the regen is but could always go up) are still excellent benefits.
Core is what is supposed to be the main fighting force of the army.
In Necron's case, it would be legions upon legions of Warriors and Immortals.
Destroyers are not Core because Destroyers are destruction-sick weirdos that the average Necron usually avoids and only work with for military reasons.
The problem with this is that such definition is entirely subjective and up to the Codex writer.
As for Daemon vehicles, tabletop inertia is not lore, and thus GW shouldn't be shackled by it.
Which was an issue from 5th to 7th and even early 8th. That's why basic Marines sucked for most of that period, because GW was unwilling to improve their profiles until late 8th edition.
Tyran wrote: Core is what is supposed to be the main fighting force of the army.
In Necron's case, it would be legions upon legions of Warriors and Immortals.
Destroyers are not Core because Destroyers are destruction-sick weirdos that the average Necron usually avoids and only work with for military reasons.
The problem with this is that such definition is entirely subjective and up to the Codex writer.
As for Daemon vehicles, tabletop inertia is not lore, and thus GW shouldn't be shackled by it.
Which was an issue from 5th to 7th and even early 8th. That's why basic Marines sucked for most of that period, because GW was unwilling to improve their profiles until late 8th edition.
So why are death company core given they're frothing beserkers that are kept locked away and only let out to die? Doesn't sound like a reliable core of an army, the answer seems to be "so they benefit from litanies".
Marines were improved in ways that seem to rationally make sense, even if some seem arbitrary. Going 2 wounds, yeah you can see an 8ft super human with redundant organs needing to be hurt more than you or I.
Daemon engines were on a 4+ to hit for so long because of a rooted standard and fluff reason, the same way orks hit on 5's and marines have a 3+ save.
Where does it end? When every army hits on a 3+ minimum so nobody has "useless" units?
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A.T. wrote: A unit having a change to its statline would have to be pretty dramatic to count as a 'setting change' IMO, like WS 2+ firewarriors.
Daemonengines creeping up are no different from the 6e eldar stat/armour boosts - same unit, more power.
There are other ways of doing it than "hits more often" though.
So why are death company core given they're frothing beserkers that are kept locked away and only let out to die?
Because it is a very common situation for the BA, after all the Black Rage is a great part of their lore.
Doesn't sound like a reliable core of an army, the answer seems to be "so they benefit from litanies".
Marines were improved in ways that seem to rationally make sense, even if some seem arbitrary. Going 2 wounds, yeah you can see an 8ft super human with redundant organs needing to be hurt more than you or I.
Daemon engines were on a 4+ to hit for so long because of a rooted standard and fluff reason, the same way orks hit on 5's and marines have a 3+ save.
Where does it end? When every army hits on a 3+ minimum so nobody has "useless" units?
No, but it very likely ends in standardization of BS/WS based on per faction basis.
The reason why 4+ to hit felt useless on Daemon Engines is because most of the Chaos Space Marine faction hits on a 3+, so the 4+ felt inherently inferior.
Meanwhile Orks 5+ to hit with ranged weapons is their faction standard. Any Ork that hits better than with a gun thus fells more precise, a "zharpzhooter." Also Ork design is expected to account for that, so you can expect a lot of shots to force those 5+ to hit.
The setting isn't being changed any more by these things than it was when Necron Warriors lost a point of save, or Scouts WS/BS changed back and forth, etc.
Core isn't really anything to do with actually being a core/common unit though (it's almost like there was already a mechanism to represent that... until GW broke it with detachments which don't require Troops...) - it's just a band aid to attempt to cover the problems caused by broken auras.
So why are death company core given they're frothing beserkers that are kept locked away and only let out to die?
Because it is a very common situation for the BA, after all the Black Rage is a great part of their lore.
Doesn't sound like a reliable core of an army, the answer seems to be "so they benefit from litanies".
Marines were improved in ways that seem to rationally make sense, even if some seem arbitrary. Going 2 wounds, yeah you can see an 8ft super human with redundant organs needing to be hurt more than you or I.
Daemon engines were on a 4+ to hit for so long because of a rooted standard and fluff reason, the same way orks hit on 5's and marines have a 3+ save.
Where does it end? When every army hits on a 3+ minimum so nobody has "useless" units?
No, but it very likely ends in standardization of BS/WS based on per faction basis.
The reason why 4+ to hit felt useless on Daemon Engines is because most of the Chaos Space Marine faction hits on a 3+, so the 4+ felt inherently inferior.
Meanwhile Orks 5+ to hit with ranged weapons is their faction standard. Any Ork that hits better than with a gun thus fells more precise, a "zharpzhooter." Also Ork design is expected to account for that, so you can expect a lot of shots to force those 5+ to hit.
The real perk of this is if they don't take out daemonforge and chaos marines now have bs 2+ reroll hits and wounds daemon engines with a disco lord unless the units are heavily redesigned to some degree and a strat dropped.
I do expect daemon engines for factions not to get core though.
Dudeface wrote: So why are death company core given they're frothing beserkers that are kept locked away and only let out to die? Doesn't sound like a reliable core of an army, the answer seems to be "so they benefit from litanies".
Here's the thing with the Black Rage - it's something elements of the BA will fall to on the eve of battle, something their Chaplains keep a watch for during their prayers and ceremonies. A unit of Death Company in a given game is unlikely to be a campaigning unit - it's the Brothers who lost their self-control and have to be kept together and utilised as they are. You don't really have the opportunity to hide them away in a Tower unless they fall while on Baal (or in transit to it).
In a way, they're Core because the commanders know there's always going to be a unit of them floating around as part of their force, so they may as well plan around using them for something, be it a folorn hope, a distraction Carnifex, or a method to munch through hordes of lighter troops before they get dragged down through sheer numbers.
I can't remember which edition - I want to say 3rd - but there was a period where you'd roll for each unit at the start of the game, and on a certain result members of that squad would be pulled to form the Death Company. Now, that's a great representation of how the Black Rage would work, but I can see why it would be annoying for players, especially when you consider how many Death Company models you'd need to have ready to cover possible wargear choices.
greatbigtree wrote: In my opinion.. Having Daemonically possessed vehicles that hit on 4+ was a tradeoff for the other benefits possessed vehicles had in earlier editions.
For example, ignoring shaken and stunned results on the old damage tables meant that you couldn't stun-lock them like other vehicles. The trade-off for more reliability was that you didn't hit as often.
Having gone away from that model of damage... there's no real reason to have them stuck at 4+ to hit.
The 5++ and regen (as low as the regen is but could always go up) are still excellent benefits.
greatbigtree wrote: In my opinion.. Having Daemonically possessed vehicles that hit on 4+ was a tradeoff for the other benefits possessed vehicles had in earlier editions.
For example, ignoring shaken and stunned results on the old damage tables meant that you couldn't stun-lock them like other vehicles. The trade-off for more reliability was that you didn't hit as often.
Having gone away from that model of damage... there's no real reason to have them stuck at 4+ to hit.
The 5++ and regen (as low as the regen is but could always go up) are still excellent benefits.
vehicles with bs3+ and a 5++ exist tho.
But why does every vehicle need to be bs3 and 5++, variety is the spice of life
But why does every vehicle need to be bs3 and 5++, variety is the spice of life
Not 'every vehicle' does- that's a non-argument. But daemon engines are supposed to be impressive, not lackluster. And in a faction that's largely WS/BS 3+, that's exactly how they currently feel. Daemon engines are largely mediocre at best, and overpriced. Past time to change that.
Marines were improved in ways that seem to rationally make sense, even if some seem arbitrary. Going 2 wounds, yeah you can see an 8ft super human with redundant organs needing to be hurt more than you or I.
Daemon engines were on a 4+ to hit for so long because of a rooted standard and fluff reason, the same way orks hit on 5's and marines have a 3+ save.
Where does it end? When every army hits on a 3+ minimum so nobody has "useless" units?
Translates to "My factions statline improvements makes sense, but why should a demonically possessed machine hit worse than its non-possessed counterpart?"
Basic Space Marines DOUBLED in wounds because....reasons. They also basically doubled their ROF with their basic weapons, they also got AP-1 on their basic weapon for about 1/3rd of the game, they also DOUBLED their # of attacks in CC most of the time.
But god forbid a demon engine gets its chance to hit increased from 50% to 66%.
Also, Orkz used to be BS4+ so them going to 5+ was a nerf and going back would be basically a marginal buff since DDD moves them to about BS 4.5+
Meanwhile Orks 5+ to hit with ranged weapons is their faction standard. Any Ork that hits better than with a gun thus fells more precise, a "zharpzhooter." Also Ork design is expected to account for that, so you can expect a lot of shots to force those 5+ to hit.
Well...that is what the fluff would lead you to believe but unfortunately thanks to the increase in damage output, orkz are lagging far behind. The faction that literally coined the phrase Dakka, has less of it than elite armies like SM's and Eldar. In 8th I was able to out dakka my opponents but only if I sunk a massive amount of points into 2 units of Lootas, 3+ units of Grotz to shield the lootas and than 5-6CP a turn to power the Lootas up enough to have decent dakka.
Marines were improved in ways that seem to rationally make sense, even if some seem arbitrary. Going 2 wounds, yeah you can see an 8ft super human with redundant organs needing to be hurt more than you or I.
Daemon engines were on a 4+ to hit for so long because of a rooted standard and fluff reason, the same way orks hit on 5's and marines have a 3+ save.
Where does it end? When every army hits on a 3+ minimum so nobody has "useless" units?
Translates to "My factions statline improvements makes sense, but why should a demonically possessed machine hit worse than its non-possessed counterpart?"
Basic Space Marines DOUBLED in wounds because....reasons. They also basically doubled their ROF with their basic weapons, they also got AP-1 on their basic weapon for about 1/3rd of the game, they also DOUBLED their # of attacks in CC most of the time.
But god forbid a demon engine gets its chance to hit increased from 50% to 66%.
Also, Orkz used to be BS4+ so them going to 5+ was a nerf and going back would be basically a marginal buff since DDD moves them to about BS 4.5+
Meanwhile Orks 5+ to hit with ranged weapons is their faction standard. Any Ork that hits better than with a gun thus fells more precise, a "zharpzhooter." Also Ork design is expected to account for that, so you can expect a lot of shots to force those 5+ to hit.
Well...that is what the fluff would lead you to believe but unfortunately thanks to the increase in damage output, orkz are lagging far behind. The faction that literally coined the phrase Dakka, has less of it than elite armies like SM's and Eldar. In 8th I was able to out dakka my opponents but only if I sunk a massive amount of points into 2 units of Lootas, 3+ units of Grotz to shield the lootas and than 5-6CP a turn to power the Lootas up enough to have decent dakka.
I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.
Bosskelot wrote: And how exactly does DC getting Core over the other units listed make the game more competitively balanced?
That's a good question, it's more of an inconsistency. The other big bad marine snowflake units have been excluded from core, assumingly in part so they don't get stacking buffs.
Death company will have access to the whole shebang of marine buffs, which elevates them beyond the comparable choices for other chapters. Its an imbalance in this case rather than a balance. I didn't lay that out very well, sorry.
I wouldn't call the Death Company a big bad snowflake unit.
Sure they are unique to the BA, but the don't really have unique equipment.
They are just normal Marines that are better at melee and slightly more durable, but they are still running in power armor with normal bolt pistols, normal chainswords and normal powerswords.
I like the premise of this thread, since I just finished re-reading Storm of Iron. A prominent scene in the book involves an attempt by Guardsmen defending a citadel to destroy the besieging Iron Warriors demonically possessed artillery.
'Cause you know, IW would totally possess their artillery if it made them *less* accurate. Somebody better tell Honsou that those ancient bound entities of power aren't doing the job, he should've gotten some average joes off the street instead.
The fluff has always been at the convenience of the plot - the Necrons are only as tough as they need to be, the marines only have the loadouts that make the scene cool, etc. Given how variable the authors have been there's room for changes in the game mechanics without "destroying the setting" or whatever.
I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.
Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%
Tyran wrote: I wouldn't call the Death Company a big bad snowflake unit.
Sure they are unique to the BA, but the don't really have unique equipment.
They are just normal Marines that are better at melee and slightly more durable, but they are still running in power armor with normal bolt pistols, normal chainswords and normal powerswords.
A unit of death company can be buffed up to the eyeballs with jump pack thunder hammers each swinging 5 times with exploding 6's, +1 to wound and rocking 3++ against some characters.
Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.
I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.
Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%
I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.
I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.
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ZebioLizard2 wrote: Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.
Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.
I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.
Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%
I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.
I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.
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ZebioLizard2 wrote: Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.
Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.
I agree whole heartedly that Loyalist SM should not have Bolter discipline/shock assault on top of Doctrines and super doctrines, but unfortunately that is the world we live in so to speak. On the reverse side of this, I don't see a problem with Daemon engines coming standard with 3+ to hit. To me the concept of a daemonic entity taking over a vehicle should enhance its abilities not stunt them. Space Marine vehicles all hit on 3s or better and IG vehicles hit on 4s and 3s. So why should a Daemon have the lesser valuation of accuracy? if anything it should be more accurate since its firing what is in essence, an extension of its own body as opposed to an inanimate lump of metal.
I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.
Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%
I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.
I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.
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ZebioLizard2 wrote: Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.
Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.
I agree whole heartedly that Loyalist SM should not have Bolter discipline/shock assault on top of Doctrines and super doctrines, but unfortunately that is the world we live in so to speak. On the reverse side of this, I don't see a problem with Daemon engines coming standard with 3+ to hit. To me the concept of a daemonic entity taking over a vehicle should enhance its abilities not stunt them. Space Marine vehicles all hit on 3s or better and IG vehicles hit on 4s and 3s. So why should a Daemon have the lesser valuation of accuracy? if anything it should be more accurate since its firing what is in essence, an extension of its own body as opposed to an inanimate lump of metal.
Because the daemons themselves are less accurate. A horror of tzeentch is bs 4, why should binding it into a metal body make it suddenly shoot better?
Unless ofc all daemons go to 3+/3+, but then we're in full blown power creep (again).
I would rather have a balanced and strategic table top war game. 40K lore is, let’s be honest, not great as narrative literature and in the past years especially largely functions as a hype machine to sell models. The original setting and its “world” is in fact very interesting, but the specifics and especially attempts to advance an overarching plot development/meta narrative is pretty half-baked.
Design rules so that all the models produce by GW have a relevant and interesting role in the tabletop game.
Stat inflation is almost always a mistake in competitive games, so if they are inflating stats to try to make the game more competitive, it doesn't sound like they really know what they're doing.
I don't think it's about creating a competitive game, though. The stat inflation is more about creating hype to fuel sales. "This model is sick! You gotta buy it! Look at those stats!" It's a marketing thing, not a game design thing.
yukishiro1 wrote: Stat inflation is almost always a mistake in competitive games, so if they are inflating stats to try to make the game more competitive, it doesn't sound like they really know what they're doing.
I don't think it's about creating a competitive game, though. The stat inflation is more about creating hype to fuel sales. "This model is sick! You gotta buy it! Look at those stats!" It's a marketing thing, not a game design thing.
It seems to work, people love their stuff to be as powerful as possible at the cost of any wider thought.
I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.
Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%
I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.
I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.
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ZebioLizard2 wrote: Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.
Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.
I agree whole heartedly that Loyalist SM should not have Bolter discipline/shock assault on top of Doctrines and super doctrines, but unfortunately that is the world we live in so to speak. On the reverse side of this, I don't see a problem with Daemon engines coming standard with 3+ to hit. To me the concept of a daemonic entity taking over a vehicle should enhance its abilities not stunt them. Space Marine vehicles all hit on 3s or better and IG vehicles hit on 4s and 3s. So why should a Daemon have the lesser valuation of accuracy? if anything it should be more accurate since its firing what is in essence, an extension of its own body as opposed to an inanimate lump of metal.
Because the daemons themselves are less accurate. A horror of tzeentch is bs 4, why should binding it into a metal body make it suddenly shoot better?
Unless ofc all daemons go to 3+/3+, but then we're in full blown power creep (again).
Ah, but Bloodletters and Daemonettes are WS3+/BS3+. So by your logic there should be representation for them as well.
I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.
Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%
I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.
I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.
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ZebioLizard2 wrote: Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.
Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.
I agree whole heartedly that Loyalist SM should not have Bolter discipline/shock assault on top of Doctrines and super doctrines, but unfortunately that is the world we live in so to speak. On the reverse side of this, I don't see a problem with Daemon engines coming standard with 3+ to hit. To me the concept of a daemonic entity taking over a vehicle should enhance its abilities not stunt them. Space Marine vehicles all hit on 3s or better and IG vehicles hit on 4s and 3s. So why should a Daemon have the lesser valuation of accuracy? if anything it should be more accurate since its firing what is in essence, an extension of its own body as opposed to an inanimate lump of metal.
Because the daemons themselves are less accurate. A horror of tzeentch is bs 4, why should binding it into a metal body make it suddenly shoot better?
Unless ofc all daemons go to 3+/3+, but then we're in full blown power creep (again).
Ah, but Bloodletters and Daemonettes are WS3+/BS3+. So by your logic there should be representation for them as well.
I fail to see why they're both 3+ bstbh, but I'd love for the daemon engines to have variable stats based on god alignment.
Give me a 4+/4+ tzeenth defiler next to a 3+/5+ khorne one (if i could amend that bs3+) etc.
I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.
Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%
I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.
I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.
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ZebioLizard2 wrote: Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.
Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.
I agree whole heartedly that Loyalist SM should not have Bolter discipline/shock assault on top of Doctrines and super doctrines, but unfortunately that is the world we live in so to speak. On the reverse side of this, I don't see a problem with Daemon engines coming standard with 3+ to hit. To me the concept of a daemonic entity taking over a vehicle should enhance its abilities not stunt them. Space Marine vehicles all hit on 3s or better and IG vehicles hit on 4s and 3s. So why should a Daemon have the lesser valuation of accuracy? if anything it should be more accurate since its firing what is in essence, an extension of its own body as opposed to an inanimate lump of metal.
Because the daemons themselves are less accurate. A horror of tzeentch is bs 4, why should binding it into a metal body make it suddenly shoot better?
Unless ofc all daemons go to 3+/3+, but then we're in full blown power creep (again).
Ah, but Bloodletters and Daemonettes are WS3+/BS3+. So by your logic there should be representation for them as well.
I fail to see why they're both 3+ bstbh, but I'd love for the daemon engines to have variable stats based on god alignment.
Give me a 4+/4+ tzeenth defiler next to a 3+/5+ khorne one (if i could amend that bs3+) etc.
Despite not having ranged weapons, it actually makes sense given their orientations. As an entity obsessed with combat and gathering skulls and inflicting bloodshed, Khorne and his daemons epitomize the martial prowess of war which includes ranged combat. You can see that already from how Khorne is the only one with a dedicated ranged platform with the Skull Cannon. Similarly, with Slaanesh being the Prince of Excess, this could also include the pursuit of perfection in war as well, which includes ranged combat. So it's not out of line for fluff at all, even if GW criminally underutilizes these themes/stats.
I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.
Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%
I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.
I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.
Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.
I agree whole heartedly that Loyalist SM should not have Bolter discipline/shock assault on top of Doctrines and super doctrines, but unfortunately that is the world we live in so to speak. On the reverse side of this, I don't see a problem with Daemon engines coming standard with 3+ to hit. To me the concept of a daemonic entity taking over a vehicle should enhance its abilities not stunt them. Space Marine vehicles all hit on 3s or better and IG vehicles hit on 4s and 3s. So why should a Daemon have the lesser valuation of accuracy? if anything it should be more accurate since its firing what is in essence, an extension of its own body as opposed to an inanimate lump of metal.
Because the daemons themselves are less accurate. A horror of tzeentch is bs 4, why should binding it into a metal body make it suddenly shoot better?
Unless ofc all daemons go to 3+/3+, but then we're in full blown power creep (again).
Ah, but Bloodletters and Daemonettes are WS3+/BS3+. So by your logic there should be representation for them as well.
I fail to see why they're both 3+ bstbh, but I'd love for the daemon engines to have variable stats based on god alignment.
Give me a 4+/4+ tzeenth defiler next to a 3+/5+ khorne one (if i could amend that bs3+) etc.
Despite not having ranged weapons, it actually makes sense given their orientations. As an entity obsessed with combat and gathering skulls and inflicting bloodshed, Khorne and his daemons epitomize the martial prowess of war which includes ranged combat. You can see that already from how Khorne is the only one with a dedicated ranged platform with the Skull Cannon. Similarly, with Slaanesh being the Prince of Excess, this could also include the pursuit of perfection in war as well, which includes ranged combat. So it's not out of line for fluff at all, even if GW criminally underutilizes these themes/stats.
I'm sold, I'd not thought of khorne as a marksman but it does make sense.
Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.
Eldarsif wrote: Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.
And as a CSM player, the WS/BS values were not the problems with the Daemon Engines as much as certain people pretend they are.
Eldarsif wrote: Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.
And as a CSM player, the WS/BS values were not the problems with the Daemon Engines as much as certain people pretend they are.
What were the problems in your opinion? Because having them hit on 5+ (because they moved their heavy weapons) was quite a downside to them.
Eldarsif wrote: Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.
Also, the irony of space marine fanboys complaining that a stat change from WS4+ to WS3+ "goes against established lore and statlines since 3rd ed"...
Marines were A1 W1 for HOW long exactly? And rapid fired at half range for HOW long?
Weird how that change was some fantastic return to lore, but this is a break from lore to make a certain type of unit more competitive for soulless tournament play...
The rules are a vehicle to create fluffy armies and games on the tabletop.
Single parts of a datasheet looked at in a vacuum are not related to fluff at all, because you can't represent an entire universe with D6 and mostly single digit stats.
It's also worth noting that much of the opinions on fluff flung around here are not backed up by references to any sources, making the whole discussion even worse.
Eldarsif wrote: Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.
And as a CSM player, the WS/BS values were not the problems with the Daemon Engines as much as certain people pretend they are.
What were the problems in your opinion? Because having them hit on 5+ (because they moved their heavy weapons) was quite a downside to them.
You must have missed Slayer constantly repeating that every problem with every unit ever can be solved by changing points, and that datasheets or stat lines must not be changed under any circumstance. Because the last five editions were so great, that deviating from their incredible rules totally ruins the fluff and precious balance between units and factions.
IMO, the whole discussion is just about people hating change and/or envy of what others get.
It's also worth noting that much of the opinions on fluff flung around here are not backed up by references to any sources, making the whole discussion even worse.
Well so far the only thing i've seen to justify that demon engines having 4+ is lore friendly is that theyre controlled by demons. Which was immediately proven false by the fac that daemonnetes and bloodletters. Stats have ZERO correlation to the fluff. Army composition does.
Point changes can only take you so far to make a unit viable. If a daemon engine can't hit the side of a barn but is costed accordingly chances are no one will take it as it will take up a very precious Heavy Slot with a unit that is not going to be doing much for you.
Eldarsif wrote: Point changes can only take you so far to make a unit viable. If a daemon engine can't hit the side of a barn but is costed accordingly chances are no one will take it as it will take up a very precious Heavy Slot with a unit that is not going to be doing much for you.
More importantly people aren't going to spend $75 on an expensive plastic mini that they have to buy a whole bunch of because they can't hit the broad side of a barn and are costed accordingly.
Dudeface wrote: Just writing this as follow on from the discussions in news and rumours.
Over the last week we've seen daemon engines having increases in BS/WS after 5 editions of being static following the possessed vehicle fluff of 3rd/4th.
We've seen core given to death company but not wulfen or necron destroyers who are arguably no less "core" to a force.
When 9th was previewed, someone coined it "40k: competitive edition". Personally it's starting to feel that fluff considerations are being put aside in favour of making the maths of the game smoother, more competitively focused.
Just wanted a place to see others opinions.
I have to disagree with this analysis. While the changes GW is making may make for better competitive play, they seem to be primarily centered around making the game play more like the background, not less.
I started playing back in 4th edition. During that whole time, Space Marines have never played closer to their background than they do now. All the buffing on of SM during late 8th to 9th has made them closer to their idealized form than they have ever been. And yet, those same rules changes included the introduction of the Core mechanic that is designed to reduce the effectiveness of many of the rules that were most abused in the past.
As for Daemon Engines getting 3+ WS/BS, I've always found it odd that Daemonically possessed vehicles lost skill in the first place. Daemon accuracy has ranges. You'd think the CSM would be smart enough to grab martially inclined daemons to bind into their engines of war. Therefore, I see no problem with the updated stat block.
Just like I see no problem with 2 Wound Space Marines, or 2 Damage Heavy Bolter, or Flamers with 12" ranges. They are all changes, but changes for a better game experience. None of these changes kill the background of Warhammer 40,000.
Eldarsif wrote: Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.
And as a CSM player, the WS/BS values were not the problems with the Daemon Engines as much as certain people pretend they are.
What were the problems in your opinion? Because having them hit on 5+ (because they moved their heavy weapons) was quite a downside to them.
You named a core rule problem, which applies to anything big moving with a weapon. The real problem was them just being expensive for the durability. Each Daemon engine clearly fulfills a role, has unique wargear to do so, and has ways of mitigation to the WS/BS4+ to begin with. However, GW has ALWAYS overvalued regen abilities. The 5++ is already very clutch, but it isn't worth being packaged with any regen if it's going to make said vehicle as expensive as it is.
I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.
Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%
I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.
I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.
Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.
I agree whole heartedly that Loyalist SM should not have Bolter discipline/shock assault on top of Doctrines and super doctrines, but unfortunately that is the world we live in so to speak. On the reverse side of this, I don't see a problem with Daemon engines coming standard with 3+ to hit. To me the concept of a daemonic entity taking over a vehicle should enhance its abilities not stunt them. Space Marine vehicles all hit on 3s or better and IG vehicles hit on 4s and 3s. So why should a Daemon have the lesser valuation of accuracy? if anything it should be more accurate since its firing what is in essence, an extension of its own body as opposed to an inanimate lump of metal.
Because the daemons themselves are less accurate. A horror of tzeentch is bs 4, why should binding it into a metal body make it suddenly shoot better?
Unless ofc all daemons go to 3+/3+, but then we're in full blown power creep (again).
Ah, but Bloodletters and Daemonettes are WS3+/BS3+. So by your logic there should be representation for them as well.
I fail to see why they're both 3+ bstbh, but I'd love for the daemon engines to have variable stats based on god alignment.
Give me a 4+/4+ tzeenth defiler next to a 3+/5+ khorne one (if i could amend that bs3+) etc.
Despite not having ranged weapons, it actually makes sense given their orientations. As an entity obsessed with combat and gathering skulls and inflicting bloodshed, Khorne and his daemons epitomize the martial prowess of war which includes ranged combat. You can see that already from how Khorne is the only one with a dedicated ranged platform with the Skull Cannon. Similarly, with Slaanesh being the Prince of Excess, this could also include the pursuit of perfection in war as well, which includes ranged combat. So it's not out of line for fluff at all, even if GW criminally underutilizes these themes/stats.
I'm sold, I'd not thought of khorne as a marksman but it does make sense.
Most of the Khorne specific daemon engines have been BS3 for a while now. Klos, Brass Scorpion, Kytan Ravager, all those guys know how to shoot.
Jidmah wrote:The rules are a vehicle to create fluffy armies and games on the tabletop.
Single parts of a datasheet looked at in a vacuum are not related to fluff at all, because you can't represent an entire universe with D6 and mostly single digit stats.
It's also worth noting that much of the opinions on fluff flung around here are not backed up by references to any sources, making the whole discussion even worse.
People care more about their personal headcannon more than any lore you can actually quote. You can cite all the lore you want to support your position, but if it doesn't match some folks headcannon, they'll just ignore it. Trust me.
Eldarsif wrote: Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.
Also, the irony of space marine fanboys complaining that a stat change from WS4+ to WS3+ "goes against established lore and statlines since 3rd ed"...
Marines were A1 W1 for HOW long exactly? And rapid fired at half range for HOW long?
Weird how that change was some fantastic return to lore, but this is a break from lore to make a certain type of unit more competitive for soulless tournament play...
literally the ONLY person I see complaining about this is the OP. no one else has an issue with it.
Eldarsif wrote: Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.
Also, the irony of space marine fanboys complaining that a stat change from WS4+ to WS3+ "goes against established lore and statlines since 3rd ed"...
Marines were A1 W1 for HOW long exactly? And rapid fired at half range for HOW long?
Weird how that change was some fantastic return to lore, but this is a break from lore to make a certain type of unit more competitive for soulless tournament play...
literally the ONLY person I see complaining about this is the OP. no one else has an issue with it.
You've not been reading the thread then, as at least one other poster have argued against it.
It's a good change, now they don't have to compete with units that just hit much better than they do.
Eldarsif wrote: Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.
Also, the irony of space marine fanboys complaining that a stat change from WS4+ to WS3+ "goes against established lore and statlines since 3rd ed"...
Marines were A1 W1 for HOW long exactly? And rapid fired at half range for HOW long?
Weird how that change was some fantastic return to lore, but this is a break from lore to make a certain type of unit more competitive for soulless tournament play...
literally the ONLY person I see complaining about this is the OP. no one else has an issue with it.
You've not been reading the thread then, as at least one other poster have argued against it.
It's a good change, now they don't have to compete with units that just hit much better than they do.
Well Scotsmans post is just one of the usual "someone dislikes some thing, they must be a filthy marine scumbag" hyperbole posts with no footing.
Again, I play chaos, I will be one of the people benefitting, I don't think bolter discipline or shock assault need to exist alongside doctrines. This isn't a jealousy topic.
Must admit its rare I agree with slayer but its clear the majority are happy to elevate all the engines to 3+/3+. I just don't understand how not hitting on a 3+ equates to "bad game experience", most armies have units hitting on a 4+. Should all the characters etc be downgraded to hit on 3's for consistency across the codex as well?
Must admit its rare I agree with slayer but its clear the majority are happy to elevate all the engines to 3+/3+. I just don't understand how not hitting on a 3+ equates to "bad game experience", most armies have units hitting on a 4+. Should all the characters etc be downgraded to hit on 3's for consistency across the codex as well?
Because 4+ is too random on what is on most accounts an elite army gameplay-wise. Eldar Guardian vehicles were annoying for this exact reason(before 6th) as you bought this expensive vehicle point-wise, but then it was just whiffing like crazy before getting turned into slag. For Death Guard it is even worse as Death Guard does not have the plethora of tools to work with and have these daemon engines to rely on.
Also, if DG is going to lose rerolls on Daemon Engines as is rumored(and based off SM and Necron Codexes) it means these daemon engines would be rather mediocre on 4+/4+, and that in turn would make them much less attractive in games outside of Open and Narrative. Remember that many of the 4+/4+ vehicles in the game are very often intended to be taken in squads(Imperial Guard Hydras are 3 in a squad if I remember correctly) as Heavy Slots are a precious resource, something that a lot of people seem to forget. I am not interested in running 6-9 PBC just so that precious 4+/4+ lore can be fulfilled. I want to play Death Guard, not weird-sauce Imperial Guard.
Now were there other solutions GW could have pursued? Yes, they could have doubled the shots on Entropy Cannons and the Volleyball Gun for example to give them more functionality, but then people would have complained about those daemon engines getting too much boost and the circle of life continues.
Also, the Myphitic Blight-Launcher was often effectively 3+ in BS due to their special ability that they are probably losing now. So there was a precedent for a 3+ Daemon Engine in the Death Guard codex even if it was a special rule. I also foresee that the MBL will lose their squad rule(that enabled the special rule) due to the changes we are discussing. Which is probably the main point of this all: BS 4+ is something that works on vehicles that can be put in a squad, but becomes cumbersome if you can't squad them.
Must admit its rare I agree with slayer but its clear the majority are happy to elevate all the engines to 3+/3+. I just don't understand how not hitting on a 3+ equates to "bad game experience", most armies have units hitting on a 4+. Should all the characters etc be downgraded to hit on 3's for consistency across the codex as well?
Because 4+ is too random on what is on most accounts an elite army gameplay-wise. Eldar Guardian vehicles were annoying for this exact reason(before 6th) as you bought this expensive vehicle point-wise, but then it was just whiffing like crazy before getting turned into slag. For Death Guard it is even worse as Death Guard does not have the plethora of tools to work with and have these daemon engines to rely on.
Also, if DG is going to lose rerolls on Daemon Engines as is rumored(and based off SM and Necron Codexes) it means these daemon engines would be rather mediocre on 4+/4+, and that in turn would make them much less attractive in games outside of Open and Narrative. Remember that many of the 4+/4+ vehicles in the game are very often intended to be taken in squads(Imperial Guard Hydras are 3 in a squad if I remember correctly) as Heavy Slots are a precious resource, something that a lot of people seem to forget. I am not interested in running 6-9 PBC just so that precious 4+/4+ lore can be fulfilled. I want to play Death Guard, not weird-sauce Imperial Guard.
Now were there other solutions GW could have pursued? Yes, they could have doubled the shots on Entropy Cannons and the Volleyball Gun to give them more functionality, but then people would have complained about those daemon engines getting too much boost and the circle of life continues.
Also, the Myphitic Blight-Launcher was often effectively 3+ in BS due to their special ability that they are probably losing out on now. So there was a precedent for a 3+ Daemon Engine in the Death Guard codex even if it was a special rule. I also foresee that the MBL will lose their squad rule(that enabled the special rule) due to the changes we are discussing. Which is probably the main point of this all: BS 4+ is something that works on vehicles that can be put in a squad, but becomes cumbersome if you can't squad them.
Guard vehicles aren't a squad, they operate independently once on the table, so if you mean "high volume of models" that's different.
But as you say, there are other ways to increase their lethality (something people complain about) without just making them hit more. A bs4 model can be pointed to have the same equivalent output as a bs3, but that doesn't seem to matter.
I'm willing to put my personal opinions aside and just go with it, since there's little choice anyway, but it feels most people just want the engines to be "better" without questioning how or why, also without realising that will come with an inevitable points hike etc. reducing the gains.
Hecaton wrote: Back when "demonic possession" was a vehicle upgrade in the 3.5 dex it didn't lower BS. So I see this as a return to form.
IIRC in 2nd Ed it was a buff to BS5 as Daemons were (on average) WS/BS5 compared to a marine’s 4, then daemons got a relative nerfing for the new edition.
Must admit its rare I agree with slayer but its clear the majority are happy to elevate all the engines to 3+/3+. I just don't understand how not hitting on a 3+ equates to "bad game experience", most armies have units hitting on a 4+. Should all the characters etc be downgraded to hit on 3's for consistency across the codex as well?
Because 4+ is too random on what is on most accounts an elite army gameplay-wise. Eldar Guardian vehicles were annoying for this exact reason(before 6th) as you bought this expensive vehicle point-wise, but then it was just whiffing like crazy before getting turned into slag. For Death Guard it is even worse as Death Guard does not have the plethora of tools to work with and have these daemon engines to rely on.
Also, if DG is going to lose rerolls on Daemon Engines as is rumored(and based off SM and Necron Codexes) it means these daemon engines would be rather mediocre on 4+/4+, and that in turn would make them much less attractive in games outside of Open and Narrative. Remember that many of the 4+/4+ vehicles in the game are very often intended to be taken in squads(Imperial Guard Hydras are 3 in a squad if I remember correctly) as Heavy Slots are a precious resource, something that a lot of people seem to forget. I am not interested in running 6-9 PBC just so that precious 4+/4+ lore can be fulfilled. I want to play Death Guard, not weird-sauce Imperial Guard.
Now were there other solutions GW could have pursued? Yes, they could have doubled the shots on Entropy Cannons and the Volleyball Gun to give them more functionality, but then people would have complained about those daemon engines getting too much boost and the circle of life continues.
Also, the Myphitic Blight-Launcher was often effectively 3+ in BS due to their special ability that they are probably losing out on now. So there was a precedent for a 3+ Daemon Engine in the Death Guard codex even if it was a special rule. I also foresee that the MBL will lose their squad rule(that enabled the special rule) due to the changes we are discussing. Which is probably the main point of this all: BS 4+ is something that works on vehicles that can be put in a squad, but becomes cumbersome if you can't squad them.
Guard vehicles aren't a squad, they operate independently once on the table, so if you mean "high volume of models" that's different.
But as you say, there are other ways to increase their lethality (something people complain about) without just making them hit more. A bs4 model can be pointed to have the same equivalent output as a bs3, but that doesn't seem to matter.
I'm willing to put my personal opinions aside and just go with it, since there's little choice anyway, but it feels most people just want the engines to be "better" without questioning how or why, also without realising that will come with an inevitable points hike etc. reducing the gains.
It would help your argument if you could cite some actual lore that says that daemon engines are inherently inferior to other csm vehicles in accuracy instead of just bringing up their stats from previous editions, which as many have pointed out have changed from edition to edition for various reasons. Stats don't equal lore.
Must admit its rare I agree with slayer but its clear the majority are happy to elevate all the engines to 3+/3+. I just don't understand how not hitting on a 3+ equates to "bad game experience", most armies have units hitting on a 4+. Should all the characters etc be downgraded to hit on 3's for consistency across the codex as well?
Because 4+ is too random on what is on most accounts an elite army gameplay-wise. Eldar Guardian vehicles were annoying for this exact reason(before 6th) as you bought this expensive vehicle point-wise, but then it was just whiffing like crazy before getting turned into slag. For Death Guard it is even worse as Death Guard does not have the plethora of tools to work with and have these daemon engines to rely on.
Also, if DG is going to lose rerolls on Daemon Engines as is rumored(and based off SM and Necron Codexes) it means these daemon engines would be rather mediocre on 4+/4+, and that in turn would make them much less attractive in games outside of Open and Narrative. Remember that many of the 4+/4+ vehicles in the game are very often intended to be taken in squads(Imperial Guard Hydras are 3 in a squad if I remember correctly) as Heavy Slots are a precious resource, something that a lot of people seem to forget. I am not interested in running 6-9 PBC just so that precious 4+/4+ lore can be fulfilled. I want to play Death Guard, not weird-sauce Imperial Guard.
Now were there other solutions GW could have pursued? Yes, they could have doubled the shots on Entropy Cannons and the Volleyball Gun to give them more functionality, but then people would have complained about those daemon engines getting too much boost and the circle of life continues.
Also, the Myphitic Blight-Launcher was often effectively 3+ in BS due to their special ability that they are probably losing out on now. So there was a precedent for a 3+ Daemon Engine in the Death Guard codex even if it was a special rule. I also foresee that the MBL will lose their squad rule(that enabled the special rule) due to the changes we are discussing. Which is probably the main point of this all: BS 4+ is something that works on vehicles that can be put in a squad, but becomes cumbersome if you can't squad them.
Guard vehicles aren't a squad, they operate independently once on the table, so if you mean "high volume of models" that's different.
But as you say, there are other ways to increase their lethality (something people complain about) without just making them hit more. A bs4 model can be pointed to have the same equivalent output as a bs3, but that doesn't seem to matter.
I'm willing to put my personal opinions aside and just go with it, since there's little choice anyway, but it feels most people just want the engines to be "better" without questioning how or why, also without realising that will come with an inevitable points hike etc. reducing the gains.
It would help your argument if you could cite some actual lore that says that daemon engines are inherently inferior to other csm vehicles in accuracy instead of just bringing up their stats from previous editions, which as many have pointed out have changed from edition to edition for various reasons. Stats don't equal lore.
Sadly I can't, I haven't held onto my historic codecies, but I'd love someone to find it as I'm not the only one remembering the same fluff explanation from way back when.
Evidently I'm in the minority and I'm happy to be. I just don't like the general acceptance of stat inflating stuff to make it better at random. There's not enough separation as it is and to strip it further in the name of making all options roll for the same number seems a bad choice.
Oddly nobody is pushing for increases on cultists, pox walkers or plaguebearers. Given the engines move to 3+, I'd hope their piloting daemons do as well.
I find this thread quite funny. I think it was more a twist of the setting to make CSM lose all of their Meltabombs or veteran abilities than turn the statline of Daemon engines into proper monsters.
Hecaton wrote: Back when "demonic possession" was a vehicle upgrade in the 3.5 dex it didn't lower BS. So I see this as a return to form.
IIRC in 2nd Ed it was a buff to BS5 as Daemons were (on average) WS/BS5 compared to a marine’s 4, then daemons got a relative nerfing for the new edition.
Lore and stats evolve *shrugs*
Yep, this.
There's no good lore-based argument against Daemon Engines not having a 3+/3+, and people in favour of it are not throwing fluff to the wind due to a desire for everything to be more powerful. Simple stuff.
Voss wrote: But daemon engines are supposed to be impressive, not lackluster. And in a faction that's largely WS/BS 3+, that's exactly how they currently feel. Daemon engines are largely mediocre at best, and overpriced. Past time to change that.
Completely wrong. Daemon engines were always cheap bullet sponges in fluff, things that don't need fuel/ammo to work you send in first because if they got shot to bits, no big loss for your actually valuable, hard to replace CSM. Them getting this stupid buff not only flies in the face of 20+ years of fluff, but seeing they have other perks on top of 3+, they now make CSM and their vehicles look like useless chumps that are worse than mass produced tin cans that can be endlessly spammed out of any old forge. Why bother with 50+ years of training, hard to produce and maintain gear and seeking very rare, compatible aspirants for new CSM when you can just kill like a dozen men to instantly produce something much better?
Jidmah wrote: Single parts of a datasheet looked at in a vacuum are not related to fluff at all, because you can't represent an entire universe with D6 and mostly single digit stats.
Except people who don't like this change are precisely the ones who don't look at it in the vacuum. SM/CSM design was that they always had better stats than other units in the game and were only matched by elites such as aspect warriors, most dangerous tyranids, or best made necrons. Now with every clown and his uncle getting 3+ the marines should go to 2+ for parity (of completely lose both their game and fluff niche) - gee, do you see a tiny problem here?
It's WAAC crowd who looks at this change in vacuum and proclaims it's good.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.
Funny, because it's the other way around - the tiny minority that was very loud in whining their leviathans are no longer autowin pay-to-own toys and taking them now has a tiny drawback (that is more than negated by increased CP) are now trying to drown discussion by shouting down anyone don't liking this unneeded, unfluffy buff and proclaiming it didn't go far enough anyway. I always like how SM players are the ones who want fluffy builds (and also the only ones I ever saw criticizing dumb changes their army got) but Tau/Eldar/CSM are always sour and claiming having 1+ stats across the board and D strength guns on everything is not enough...
Completely wrong. Daemon engines were always cheap bullet sponges in fluff, things that don't need fuel/ammo to work you send in first because if they got shot to bits, no big loss for your actually valuable, hard to replace CSM. Them getting this stupid buff not only flies in the face of 20+ years of fluff, but seeing they have other perks on top of 3+, they now make CSM and their vehicles look like useless chumps that are worse than mass produced tin cans that can be endlessly spammed out of any old forge.
I'm sorry this has managed to be completely wrong and flies in the face of... everything in the fluff beforehand.
Funny, because it's the other way around - the tiny minority that was very loud in whining their leviathans are no longer autowin pay-to-own toys and taking them now has a tiny drawback (that is more than negated by increased CP) are now trying to drown discussion by shouting down anyone don't liking this unneeded, unfluffy buff and proclaiming it didn't go far enough anyway. I always like how SM players are the ones who want fluffy builds (and also the only ones I ever saw criticizing dumb changes their army got) but Tau/Eldar/CSM are always sour and claiming having 1+ stats across the board and D strength guns on everything is not enough...
..Welp you've certainly got a chip on your shoulder for trying to bring this up here when it wasn't even being discussed beforehand.
Completely wrong. Daemon engines were always cheap bullet sponges in fluff, things that don't need fuel/ammo to work you send in first because if they got shot to bits, no big loss for your actually valuable, hard to replace CSM. Them getting this stupid buff not only flies in the face of 20+ years of fluff, but seeing they have other perks on top of 3+, they now make CSM and their vehicles look like useless chumps that are worse than mass produced tin cans that can be endlessly spammed out of any old forge. Why bother with 50+ years of training, hard to produce and maintain gear and seeking very rare, compatible aspirants for new CSM when you can just kill like a dozen men to instantly produce something much better?
Why did Mortarion bother with perfecting Plagueburst Crawlers if they are supposed to just be bullet sponges? Why even bother giving them heavy weaponry and not just make them puke flamer platforms?
Lore nerds seem to know very little about Mortarion. Hell, my knowledge is limited of him yet most of it goes against what you claim.
These hideous effects have made the Plagueburst Crawler a much-hated weapon of war. Enemies strive to destroy them at any cost
Woah, if these are just cheap bullet sponges without any value why even bother destroying them when there are other more dangerous things around?
Most Death Guard commanders use packs of these Daemon Engines(Myphitic Blight-Hauler) to fill the role that Havocs or Obliterators might in other Traitor Legions.
Wait, so Havocs are just bullet sponges? According to the lore Havocs and Obliterators should now be 4+/4+ if I am understanding the lore buffs here. Hell, by all accounts all space marine dreadnoughts should be 4+/4+ because that coffin of theirs certainly isn't their "natural state" as has been argued in case of daemon engines. I will not accept "but mah lore says they are highly trained!" arguments.
Seriously, all this "old lore" discussion seems to be based off a White Dwarf article written by an intern in 1980 that people are holding onto. The lore has also changed a lot in the preceding 30 years and being a canon-nerd that wants to cite some obscure out of print lore is not a good look for anyone.
I just don't understand how not hitting on a 3+ equates to "bad game experience", most armies have units hitting on a 4+. Should all the characters etc be downgraded to hit on 3's for consistency across the codex as well?
4+ to hit without any aid or rerolls on a single platform taking a whole heavy slot is a Wheel of Fortune. Your argument is also not a fair as cheap HQ(3+ would make them cheaper) can be used to unlock detachments or fill minimum requirements of detachments whereas a cheap single vehicle in HS is taking up a very limited and valuable resource slot.
I do not know if the lore people play Matched Play, but resource management is a thing in Matched Play and you have a limited amount of slots. If you have a garbage item with little to no return of investment taking a highly valued slot, such as the HS slots, you will not see them used. Points are not the only resource management in Warhammer 40.000 and people need to realize that to see the actual context of this discussions.
I just don't understand how not hitting on a 3+ equates to "bad game experience", most armies have units hitting on a 4+. Should all the characters etc be downgraded to hit on 3's for consistency across the codex as well?
4+ to hit without any aid or rerolls on a single platform taking a whole heavy slot is a Wheel of Fortune. Your argument is also not a fair as cheap HQ(3+ would make them cheaper) can be used to unlock detachments or fill minimum requirements of detachments whereas a cheap single vehicle in HS is taking up a very limited and valuable resource slot.
I do not know if the lore people play Matched Play, but resource management is a thing in Matched Play and you have a limited amount of slots. If you have a garbage item with little to no return of investment taking a highly valued slot, such as the HS slots, you will not see them used. Points are not the only resource management in Warhammer 40.000 and people need to realize that to see the actual context of this discussions.
Right, lets look at it this way, currently a forgefiend shoots 8 hades autocannon shots, hit with 4 for 135 points.
If you put it up to bs3 it hits with slightly over 5, assumingly logically the points will be near 175 to maintain output.
You could also make hades autocannons (only found on daemon engines) heavy 5. You now have nearly identical damage output with higher potential (so arguably better), but haven't changed the stat line of the model.
None of this requires a change to bs3, it would assumingly cost the same as a bs3 forgefiend with current load out.
Make a unit cheap enough and it will stop being garbage, almost universally. Points saved allows you to buy more elsewhere. I'm all for rules changes rather than points cuts though, but just going "meh bs3" is lazy.
I just don't understand how not hitting on a 3+ equates to "bad game experience", most armies have units hitting on a 4+. Should all the characters etc be downgraded to hit on 3's for consistency across the codex as well?
4+ to hit without any aid or rerolls on a single platform taking a whole heavy slot is a Wheel of Fortune. Your argument is also not a fair as cheap HQ(3+ would make them cheaper) can be used to unlock detachments or fill minimum requirements of detachments whereas a cheap single vehicle in HS is taking up a very limited and valuable resource slot.
I do not know if the lore people play Matched Play, but resource management is a thing in Matched Play and you have a limited amount of slots. If you have a garbage item with little to no return of investment taking a highly valued slot, such as the HS slots, you will not see them used. Points are not the only resource management in Warhammer 40.000 and people need to realize that to see the actual context of this discussions.
Right, lets look at it this way, currently a forgefiend shoots 8 hades autocannon shots, hit with 4 for 135 points.
If you put it up to bs3 it hits with slightly over 5, assumingly logically the points will be near 175 to maintain output.
You could also make hades autocannons (only found on daemon engines) heavy 5. You now have nearly identical damage output with higher potential (so arguably better), but haven't changed the stat line of the model.
None of this requires a change to bs3, it would assumingly cost the same as a bs3 forgefiend with current load out.
Make a unit cheap enough and it will stop being garbage, almost universally. Points saved allows you to buy more elsewhere. I'm all for rules changes rather than points cuts though, but just going "meh bs3" is lazy.
Going to BS3 is lazy, but upping to Heavy 5 isn't?
Moreover, increased offensive output without upping durability, movement, or board presence should not be a 1-to-1 increase. Increasing damage by 33% should not be a 33% increase in price, because all the other areas haven't improved.
I just don't understand how not hitting on a 3+ equates to "bad game experience", most armies have units hitting on a 4+. Should all the characters etc be downgraded to hit on 3's for consistency across the codex as well?
4+ to hit without any aid or rerolls on a single platform taking a whole heavy slot is a Wheel of Fortune. Your argument is also not a fair as cheap HQ(3+ would make them cheaper) can be used to unlock detachments or fill minimum requirements of detachments whereas a cheap single vehicle in HS is taking up a very limited and valuable resource slot.
I do not know if the lore people play Matched Play, but resource management is a thing in Matched Play and you have a limited amount of slots. If you have a garbage item with little to no return of investment taking a highly valued slot, such as the HS slots, you will not see them used. Points are not the only resource management in Warhammer 40.000 and people need to realize that to see the actual context of this discussions.
Right, lets look at it this way, currently a forgefiend shoots 8 hades autocannon shots, hit with 4 for 135 points.
If you put it up to bs3 it hits with slightly over 5, assumingly logically the points will be near 175 to maintain output.
You could also make hades autocannons (only found on daemon engines) heavy 5. You now have nearly identical damage output with higher potential (so arguably better), but haven't changed the stat line of the model.
None of this requires a change to bs3, it would assumingly cost the same as a bs3 forgefiend with current load out.
Make a unit cheap enough and it will stop being garbage, almost universally. Points saved allows you to buy more elsewhere. I'm all for rules changes rather than points cuts though, but just going "meh bs3" is lazy.
Going to BS3 is lazy, but upping to Heavy 5 isn't?
Moreover, increased offensive output without upping durability, movement, or board presence should not be a 1-to-1 increase. Increasing damage by 33% should not be a 33% increase in price, because all the other areas haven't improved.
Heavy 5 is marginally less lazy, but doesn't involve stats changes. Agreed though on the defensive costs, it was napkin maths tbh.
JNAProductions wrote: And why are stat changes on models any worse than stat changes on weapons?
Because if you start giving eldar increased toughness just to increase their durability you've altered what is their normal in the setting. They're suddenly tougher than a human, as tough as a space marine etc.
Increasing the bs on a daemon engine basically says they're innately going from being moderately accurate and somewhat capable of aiming when they shoot to as good as most armies elite soldiers.
Increasing a profile on their weapon allows you to increase the damage output via representing a hail of fire ala orks.
Edit: mathematically they can be equivalent, but it varies the feel of the unit if you will.
JNAProductions wrote: And why are stat changes on models any worse than stat changes on weapons?
Because if you start giving eldar increased toughness just to increase their durability you've altered what is their normal in the setting. They're suddenly tougher than a human, as tough as a space marine etc.
Increasing the bs on a daemon engine basically says they're innately going from being moderately accurate and somewhat capable of aiming when they shoot to as good as most armies elite soldiers.
Increasing a profile on their weapon allows you to increase the damage output via representing a hail of fire ala orks.
Really? I find degrading two points of BS and WS for being put in a mechanical body a little extreme. Only one point of degradation makes more sense-after all, all Heralds are WS/BS 2+, and who says it's not Heralds or greater in the Daemon Engines?
"Space Marines are tougher (if not better armored) than Eldar," is... I won't say CENTRAL to the setting, but it's consistently been part of it and is something that should be kept.
"Daemon Engines are less accurate than Marines, or even many Daemons" is not.
JNAProductions wrote: And why are stat changes on models any worse than stat changes on weapons?
Because if you start giving eldar increased toughness just to increase their durability you've altered what is their normal in the setting. They're suddenly tougher than a human, as tough as a space marine etc.
Increasing the bs on a daemon engine basically says they're innately going from being moderately accurate and somewhat capable of aiming when they shoot to as good as most armies elite soldiers.
Increasing a profile on their weapon allows you to increase the damage output via representing a hail of fire ala orks.
Really? I find degrading two points of BS and WS for being put in a mechanical body a little extreme. Only one point of degradation makes more sense-after all, all Heralds are WS/BS 2+, and who says it's not Heralds or greater in the Daemon Engines?
"Space Marines are tougher (if not better armored) than Eldar," is... I won't say CENTRAL to the setting, but it's consistently been part of it and is something that should be kept.
"Daemon Engines are less accurate than Marines, or even many Daemons" is not.
Not all heralds are 2+/2+, tzeentch is 3+/3+, but even then it seems slightly preposterous to suggest ever daemon engine is a herald or higher.
To be honest my opinions are my own, I'll get over it and just roll along with my engines hitting on a 2+ with rerolls, just like when scouts used to be 4+/4+ as they hadn't finished their implants and training.
Times change and the majority are happy with it regardless.
JNAProductions wrote: Fair enough-my bad on the Tzeentch Herald. I run Nurgle, so I never really look at that god.
But are you saying that it'd make more sense for a Plagueburst Crawler to be powered by a simple Plaguebearer than a Herald or something similar?
Basically, most fluff points to it being standard low ranking daemons plucked against their will when being summoned, so lowish troop daemons.
For khorne or slaanesh thats still a 3+/3+ but not for nurgle or tzeentch who are 4+/4+ on their more numerous forms.
Fluff sections aren't overly clear but I'm sure a herald would revel in being in the materium:
"Within the armoured shell of each Daemon Engine is entrapped a denizen of the Warp, a being dragged forth from the Immaterium against its will and nature, sealed within the machine by the unreasoning hatred for the material universe in which they find themselves; they seek only to shed the blood of its mortal inhabitants and to feast upon their unbound souls"
JNAProductions wrote: Fair enough-my bad on the Tzeentch Herald. I run Nurgle, so I never really look at that god.
But are you saying that it'd make more sense for a Plagueburst Crawler to be powered by a simple Plaguebearer than a Herald or something similar?
Basically, most fluff points to it being standard low ranking daemons plucked against their will when being summoned, so low ranking daemons.
That isn't true.
OK, can you provide evidence to the contrary?
You haven't provided evidence for your assertion yet, though.
If anything, I'd say your quote actually provides evidence to it being a Daemon of power-it says "is entrapped a Denizen of the Warp," as-in, one. You really think a single Plaguebearer can provide a 5++ to an entire tank? Or a single Bloodletter the same?
I think there is an argument all armies will end up BS3+ one day. Mainly because as outlined players (not necessarily competitive players) hate whiffing.
Whether this is good or not is unclear, but its just a consequence of 5+ being an awfully swingy probability. Even like Guard and Tau are not cheap enough for the odds of a 5+ to hit.
Because you can't say "well 8 shots at BS 4 is the same as 6 shots at BS 3". I mean on averagehammer yes. But the normal distribution curves are not the same. You are more impacted by minuses to hit - and theoretically benefit more from bonuses to hit, but they are comparatively uncommon.
To an extent a skewed probability curve isn't bad if you've signed up for it. I'm not sure Ork Players like it - but from my perspective there is something to "I'm going to be unlucky a lot, but when I get lucky, I'm really lucky". This was summed up in Da Souped-Up Shokka - which perhaps unsurprisingly generated complaints from those who were on the end of it *when it worked*.
But generally most players - beyond the most superficially engaged - don't enjoy games they won or lost because they dice went "one of you is going to get nothing but 6s, and the other is going to get nothing but 1s".
The Scotsman often asks why people dislike "tough" lists - and I think its because of this. Its very annoying if all your stuff does no damage because the luck went that way. Its why I'm not really a fan of invuls and FNPs. There isn't a counter-play. Its just pure luck exacerbated by their all or nothing nature.
I mean that sounds silly - because its a dice game, its all about luck - but that's a still thing.
Why playing say a Castellan was soul destroying was that if your opponent didn't fail those 3++ (then 4++ as they became) saves, then you just lost. There wasn't an obvious trick you could to avoid this. You had to skew your list to be able to pop this abomination - and then not have your opponent beat the odds. Which at least to my mind isn't fun, and isn't really what 40k is about.
JNAProductions wrote: Fair enough-my bad on the Tzeentch Herald. I run Nurgle, so I never really look at that god.
But are you saying that it'd make more sense for a Plagueburst Crawler to be powered by a simple Plaguebearer than a Herald or something similar?
Basically, most fluff points to it being standard low ranking daemons plucked against their will when being summoned, so low ranking daemons.
That isn't true.
OK, can you provide evidence to the contrary?
You haven't provided evidence for your assertion yet, though.
If anything, I'd say your quote actually provides evidence to it being a Daemon of power-it says "is entrapped a Denizen of the Warp," as-in, one. You really think a single Plaguebearer can provide a 5++ to an entire tank? Or a single Bloodletter the same?
Well a single daemon gives a soul grinder a 5++ so sure.
Here's a fluff segment for blood slaughterers:
"They bear a clear resemblance to the greater Brass Scorpions of Khorne, yet Inquisitors and savants know not to rely on mere appearance when attempting to comprehend anything about the workings of Chaos. Brass Scorpions are almost certainly higher-order daemons of Khorne given physical, albeit mechanical, form by the rituals of the Dark Magi.
Blood Slaughterers, however, appear to be machines constructed for the purpose of binding a daemon inside their shell. Unlike the Brass Scorpion, the body of the Blood Slaughterer has also been observed to mount a containment vessel thought to contain the bound essence of a daemon of the Warp."
At worst a daemon engine has a random daemon of varying import stuck in it.
Oddly nobody is pushing for increases on cultists, pox walkers or plaguebearers. Given the engines move to 3+, I'd hope their piloting daemons do as well.
There are more demons that hit on 3's than demons that hit on 4's currently
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Sgt. Cortez wrote: I find this thread quite funny. I think it was more a twist of the setting to make CSM lose all of their Meltabombs or veteran abilities than turn the statline of Daemon engines into proper monsters.
Oddly nobody is pushing for increases on cultists, pox walkers or plaguebearers. Given the engines move to 3+, I'd hope their piloting daemons do as well.
There are more demons that hit on 3's than demons that hit on 4's currently
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Sgt. Cortez wrote: I find this thread quite funny. I think it was more a twist of the setting to make CSM lose all of their Meltabombs or veteran abilities than turn the statline of Daemon engines into proper monsters.
agreed 100%.
But are you happy with 3+ horrors and plague bearers?
JNAProductions wrote: Fair enough-my bad on the Tzeentch Herald. I run Nurgle, so I never really look at that god.
But are you saying that it'd make more sense for a Plagueburst Crawler to be powered by a simple Plaguebearer than a Herald or something similar?
Basically, most fluff points to it being standard low ranking daemons plucked against their will when being summoned, so low ranking daemons.
That isn't true.
OK, can you provide evidence to the contrary?
You haven't provided evidence for your assertion yet, though.
If anything, I'd say your quote actually provides evidence to it being a Daemon of power-it says "is entrapped a Denizen of the Warp," as-in, one. You really think a single Plaguebearer can provide a 5++ to an entire tank? Or a single Bloodletter the same?
Well a single daemon gives a soul grinder a 5++ so sure.
Here's a fluff segment for blood slaughterers:
"They bear a clear resemblance to the greater Brass Scorpions of Khorne, yet Inquisitors and savants know not to rely on mere appearance when attempting to comprehend anything about the workings of Chaos. Brass Scorpions are almost certainly higher-order daemons of Khorne given physical, albeit mechanical, form by the rituals of the Dark Magi.
Blood Slaughterers, however, appear to be machines constructed for the purpose of binding a daemon inside their shell. Unlike the Brass Scorpion, the body of the Blood Slaughterer has also been observed to mount a containment vessel thought to contain the bound essence of a daemon of the Warp."
At worst a daemon engine has a random daemon of varying import stuck in it.
That doesn't support your assertion.
Nothing there says the Warpsmith just plucks a random Khorne Daemon. It'd make sense that the more powerful the engine, the more powerful the Daemon you need-so a Defiler might have something halfway between a Herald and a Greater, while a Maulerfiend might have a more ordinary Herald.
And a Brass Scorpion, well, that's bound to have a very potent daemon indeed.
Edit: And I'd be fine with 3+ Horrors and Bearers. I don't think it's needed, but it certainly wouldn't break the setting or anything.
Except people who don't like this change are precisely the ones who don't look at it in the vacuum. SM/CSM design was that they always had better stats than other units in the game and were only matched by elites such as aspect warriors, most dangerous tyranids, or best made necrons. Now with every clown and his uncle getting 3+ the marines should go to 2+ for parity (of completely lose both their game and fluff niche) - gee, do you see a tiny problem here?
Except people who don't like this change are precisely the ones who don't look at it in the vacuum. SM/CSM design was that they always had better stats than other units in the game and were only matched by elites such as aspect warriors, most dangerous tyranids, or best made necrons. Now with every clown and his uncle getting 3+ the marines should go to 2+ for parity (of completely lose both their game and fluff niche) - gee, do you see a tiny problem here?
Except people who don't like this change are precisely the ones who don't look at it in the vacuum. SM/CSM design was that they always had better stats than other units in the game and were only matched by elites such as aspect warriors, most dangerous tyranids, or best made necrons. Now with every clown and his uncle getting 3+ the marines should go to 2+ for parity (of completely lose both their game and fluff niche) - gee, do you see a tiny problem here?
JNAProductions wrote: Fair enough-my bad on the Tzeentch Herald. I run Nurgle, so I never really look at that god.
But are you saying that it'd make more sense for a Plagueburst Crawler to be powered by a simple Plaguebearer than a Herald or something similar?
Basically, most fluff points to it being standard low ranking daemons plucked against their will when being summoned, so low ranking daemons.
That isn't true.
OK, can you provide evidence to the contrary?
You haven't provided evidence for your assertion yet, though.
If anything, I'd say your quote actually provides evidence to it being a Daemon of power-it says "is entrapped a Denizen of the Warp," as-in, one. You really think a single Plaguebearer can provide a 5++ to an entire tank? Or a single Bloodletter the same?
Well a single daemon gives a soul grinder a 5++ so sure.
Here's a fluff segment for blood slaughterers:
"They bear a clear resemblance to the greater Brass Scorpions of Khorne, yet Inquisitors and savants know not to rely on mere appearance when attempting to comprehend anything about the workings of Chaos. Brass Scorpions are almost certainly higher-order daemons of Khorne given physical, albeit mechanical, form by the rituals of the Dark Magi.
Blood Slaughterers, however, appear to be machines constructed for the purpose of binding a daemon inside their shell. Unlike the Brass Scorpion, the body of the Blood Slaughterer has also been observed to mount a containment vessel thought to contain the bound essence of a daemon of the Warp."
At worst a daemon engine has a random daemon of varying import stuck in it.
That doesn't support your assertion.
Nothing there says the Warpsmith just plucks a random Khorne Daemon. It'd make sense that the more powerful the engine, the more powerful the Daemon you need-so a Defiler might have something halfway between a Herald and a Greater, while a Maulerfiend might have a more ordinary Herald.
And a Brass Scorpion, well, that's bound to have a very potent daemon indeed.
Edit: And I'd be fine with 3+ Horrors and Bearers. I don't think it's needed, but it certainly wouldn't break the setting or anything.
It doesn't change the assertion either way, greater daemons are top of the food chain, so if we assume a scoprion is a greater or exalted at best, it's implied a blood slaughterer is of lower standing, so herald at highest.
A "denizen of the warp" has no power level assigned to it.
Except people who don't like this change are precisely the ones who don't look at it in the vacuum. SM/CSM design was that they always had better stats than other units in the game and were only matched by elites such as aspect warriors, most dangerous tyranids, or best made necrons. Now with every clown and his uncle getting 3+ the marines should go to 2+ for parity (of completely lose both their game and fluff niche) - gee, do you see a tiny problem here?
So you agree that demon engines should be 3+
Is a daemon a space marine?
What Codex are Daemon Engines in?
Chaos space marines, death guard, thousand sons and daemons.
Are they space marines?
Bonus points, cultists are in codex chaos space marines.
JNAProductions wrote: Fair enough-my bad on the Tzeentch Herald. I run Nurgle, so I never really look at that god.
But are you saying that it'd make more sense for a Plagueburst Crawler to be powered by a simple Plaguebearer than a Herald or something similar?
Basically, most fluff points to it being standard low ranking daemons plucked against their will when being summoned, so low ranking daemons.
That isn't true.
OK, can you provide evidence to the contrary?
I'm not the one who needs to provide evidence, because I'm not the one making claims in defiance of reality. There is no fluff stating or implying that the entities in daemon engines are of the "standard low ranking daemons" variety. Nothing. That's the point; what we do have is ambiguous because daemons by their very nature defy easy characterization. You are making assumptions based on your own interpretation of the lore which appears based on nothing more than the fact that daemon engines have had a 4+/4+ on the tabletop for many years. These assumptions of yours are not stupid or unreasonable, but nor are they facts.
Read through any CSM codex. You won't find anything - not a single quote - indicating that the entities in daemon engines are generally "low ranking". You also won't, of course, find anything indicating that they have to be "high ranking", or something analogous to heralds, that sort of thing. Logic & lore dictates that the stronger an entity the harder it is to control, but the kinds of figures throwing daemons into specially made engines of war aren't exactly amateurs.
At the end of the day, what I'm saying is that the lore surrounding daemon engines, as well as daemons themselves, is extremely amorphous and flexible. This change to a 3+/3+ is just as justifiable in the lore as a 4+/4+ ever was. That's really all there is to it. Your opinion that daemon engines should have been kept at a 4+/4+ is totally valid, but is also not worth writing 234,487 posts about it, because there's nothing to back you up, and implying that CSM fans happy with the change to a 3+/3+ are somehow in defiance of the lore is simply wrong.
Hecaton wrote: Back when "demonic possession" was a vehicle upgrade in the 3.5 dex it didn't lower BS. So I see this as a return to form.
IIRC in 2nd Ed it was a buff to BS5 as Daemons were (on average) WS/BS5 compared to a marine’s 4, then daemons got a relative nerfing for the new edition.
Lore and stats evolve *shrugs*
Yes, but the point is that OP's complaints are baseless.
Oddly nobody is pushing for increases on cultists, pox walkers or plaguebearers. Given the engines move to 3+, I'd hope their piloting daemons do as well.
There are more demons that hit on 3's than demons that hit on 4's currently
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Sgt. Cortez wrote: I find this thread quite funny. I think it was more a twist of the setting to make CSM lose all of their Meltabombs or veteran abilities than turn the statline of Daemon engines into proper monsters.
agreed 100%.
But are you happy with 3+ horrors and plague bearers?
am i happy? No, rolling so many dice only to see like 3-4 wound feels terrible. I play Tzeetch and slaanesh so i dont know how well plaguebearers do with a 4+, my horrors are painfully annoying. I wish they had a 3+ and less shots to compensate. Less dice = better in ym opinion
JNAProductions wrote: Fair enough-my bad on the Tzeentch Herald. I run Nurgle, so I never really look at that god.
But are you saying that it'd make more sense for a Plagueburst Crawler to be powered by a simple Plaguebearer than a Herald or something similar?
Basically, most fluff points to it being standard low ranking daemons plucked against their will when being summoned, so low ranking daemons.
That isn't true.
OK, can you provide evidence to the contrary?
I'm not the one who needs to provide evidence, because I'm not the one making claims in defiance of reality. There is no fluff stating or implying that the entities in daemon engines are of the "standard low ranking daemons" variety. Nothing. That's the point; what we do have is ambiguous because daemons by their very nature defy easy characterization. You are making assumptions based on your own interpretation of the lore which appears based on nothing more than the fact that daemon engines have had a 4+/4+ on the tabletop for many years. These assumptions of yours are not stupid or unreasonable, but nor are they facts.
Read through any CSM codex. You won't find anything - not a single quote - indicating that the entities in daemon engines are generally "low ranking". You also won't, of course, find anything indicating that they have to be "high ranking", or something analogous to heralds, that sort of thing. Logic & lore dictates that the stronger an entity the harder it is to control, but the kinds of figures throwing daemons into specially made engines of war aren't exactly amateurs.
At the end of the day, what I'm saying is that the lore surrounding daemon engines, as well as daemons themselves, is extremely amorphous and flexible. This change to a 3+/3+ is just as justifiable in the lore as a 4+/4+ ever was. That's really all there is to it. Your opinion that daemon engines should have been kept at a 4+/4+ is totally valid, but is also not worth writing 234,487 posts about it, because there's nothing to back you up, and implying that CSM fans happy with the change to a 3+/3+ are somehow in defiance of the lore is simply wrong.
Very fair and reasonable post and I agree, there's nothing backing up either side beyond a long standing history of profiles.
You almost managed a reasonable post with only 1 needling insult but I'll let that slide.
Oddly nobody is pushing for increases on cultists, pox walkers or plaguebearers. Given the engines move to 3+, I'd hope their piloting daemons do as well.
There are more demons that hit on 3's than demons that hit on 4's currently
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I find this thread quite funny. I think it was more a twist of the setting to make CSM lose all of their Meltabombs or veteran abilities than turn the statline of Daemon engines into proper monsters.
agreed 100%.
But are you happy with 3+ horrors and plague bearers?
am i happy? No, rolling so many dice only to see like 3-4 wound feels terrible. I play Tzeetch and slaanesh so i dont know how well plaguebearers do with a 4+, my horrors are painfully annoying. I wish they had a 3+ and less shots to compensate. Less dice = better in ym opinion
I agree with that, but i kinda wish the stats inflation hadn't hit the point where they have to have so many shots to be worthwhile with a 4+.
And yes, cultists are, but they fulfill a different role in the codex. Their only purpose is to be chaff used by the big boys, hence their gak stats and the existence of the "cannon fodder" stratagem.
feth it, I've had a few beers, some good points have been raised that aren't "I want my stuff to be better" and I've been persuaded that I'm both in the minority and times change.
Dudeface wrote: You almost managed a reasonable post with only 1 needling insult but I'll let that slide.
In the spirit of a reasoned discussion then, perhaps next time consider phrasing your hypothesis in such a way that doesn't imply that people that disagree with you are prepared to take a bonus at expense of the lore, e.g.
Dudeface wrote: It seems to work, people love their stuff to be as powerful as possible at the cost of any wider thought.
At worst a daemon engine has a random daemon of varying import stuck in it.
That just implies Mortarion is an idiot when building his engines of war.
If anything I would assume the daemon in the engine would rely greatly on the craftsman rather than a universal RNG.
The Daemon Primarch Mortarion himself perfected the designs for the first Plagueburst Crawlers as a labour of pure spite. The Death Lord sought to create a superlative mobile artillery piece that would outclass any comparative Imperial weapon, and thus demonstrate the Death Guard's superiority over their corpse-worshipping former kin.
For many solar months he locked himself away in the smog-wreathed spires of the Black Manse on the Plague Planet, obsessing endlessly over his foul brainchild, turning all of his remarkable intellect to the challenge.
"Remarkable intellect" and "outclass any comparative Imperial weapon" kinda implies that Mortarion knows what he is doing and what he is summoning into the machines.
No, they are not. You automatically lost the argument.
Also Cultists are in the same exact codex, so we should increase them to WS/BS3+ for the consistency you're apparently craving.
At worst a daemon engine has a random daemon of varying import stuck in it.
That just implies Mortarion is an idiot when building his engines of war.
If anything I would assume the daemon in the engine would rely greatly on the craftsman rather than a universal RNG.
The Daemon Primarch Mortarion himself perfected the designs for the first Plagueburst Crawlers as a labour of pure spite. The Death Lord sought to create a superlative mobile artillery piece that would outclass any comparative Imperial weapon, and thus demonstrate the Death Guard's superiority over their corpse-worshipping former kin.
For many solar months he locked himself away in the smog-wreathed spires of the Black Manse on the Plague Planet, obsessing endlessly over his foul brainchild, turning all of his remarkable intellect to the challenge.
"Remarkable intellect" and "outclass any comparative Imperial weapon" kinda implies that Mortarion knows what he is doing and what he is summoning into the machines.
No, it implies it's talking about the weapon on said artillery piece.
For those interested, IA13 contains information about how Daemon Engines are created, and it does sound like the kinds of entities being worked with are a little more dangerous than lesser daemons:
Spoiler:
Still ambiguous as to their "ranking", as I noted above, but I still like the weightiness of it all. There are also examples of e.g. Soul Grinders, where the daemon contained within is one of the "mightiest of daemons":
Spoiler:
I would point out that Soul Grinders, one of the "mightiest of daemons" (and counted among the highest tier of daemon engines in the book), currently only has a WS & BS of 4+.
Inquisitorial texts also mention that true daemon engines are actually quite rare, certainly not the kinds of meat shields that Irbis incorrectly cited earlier:
Spoiler:
There's a lot more there but you get the idea. I think we're done here
No, they are not. You automatically lost the argument.
Also Cultists are in the same exact codex, so we should increase them to WS/BS3+ for the consistency you're apparently craving.
At worst a daemon engine has a random daemon of varying import stuck in it.
That just implies Mortarion is an idiot when building his engines of war.
If anything I would assume the daemon in the engine would rely greatly on the craftsman rather than a universal RNG.
The Daemon Primarch Mortarion himself perfected the designs for the first Plagueburst Crawlers as a labour of pure spite. The Death Lord sought to create a superlative mobile artillery piece that would outclass any comparative Imperial weapon, and thus demonstrate the Death Guard's superiority over their corpse-worshipping former kin.
For many solar months he locked himself away in the smog-wreathed spires of the Black Manse on the Plague Planet, obsessing endlessly over his foul brainchild, turning all of his remarkable intellect to the challenge.
"Remarkable intellect" and "outclass any comparative Imperial weapon" kinda implies that Mortarion knows what he is doing and what he is summoning into the machines.
No, it implies it's talking about the weapon on said artillery piece.
I'd just let it go man. The vast majority have spoken and they're in favour of the change. There admittedly is no real fluff one way or the other as it's ambiguous.
The best we can hope for is a community article with "guess what, those daemons have gotten used to their shells so now hit on 3's" and we carry on with the game and hope we don't keep seeing all factions get accuracy boosts.
There are also examples of e.g. Soul Grinders, where the daemon contained within is one of the "mightiest of daemons":
Spoiler:
I would point out that Soul Grinders, one of the "mightiest of daemons" (and counted among the highest tier of daemon engines in the book), currently only has a WS & BS of 4+.
So does that mean:
I think we're done here
But I agree its clearly ambiguous beyond existing stats on units, its going to be subjective as to what feels correct but at the end of the day the stats are what they are.
No, they are not. You automatically lost the argument.
Also Cultists are in the same exact codex, so we should increase them to WS/BS3+ for the consistency you're apparently craving.
Just saying i lost an argument doesnt mean i did.
Why do you disagree that demon engines in the CSM codexes are CSM units?
Because there isnt actual space marines driving it? Because by that logic, drop pods aren't space marines...
No, they are not. You automatically lost the argument.
Also Cultists are in the same exact codex, so we should increase them to WS/BS3+ for the consistency you're apparently craving.
Just saying i lost an argument doesnt mean i did.
Why do you disagree that demon engines in the CSM codexes are CSM units?
Because there isnt actual space marines driving it? Because by that logic, drop pods aren't space marines...
Drop pods shouldn't be hitting on 3's. Indeed deathstorm pods used to hit on 5s and currently hit on 4's due to the lack of a marine to fire it.
Further, cultists are a chaos space marine unit. By your logic they are and should hit on 3s.
Further, cultists are a chaos space marine unit. By your logic they are and should hit on 3s.
No, because the codex fluff states that cultists are a chaff unit. It states no such thing about demon engines.
You've lost me. You argue a daemon engine must hit on 3s because it's a space marine unit, but other space marine units can't hit on 3s because they're intended to die?
Further, cultists are a chaos space marine unit. By your logic they are and should hit on 3s.
No, because the codex fluff states that cultists are a chaff unit. It states no such thing about demon engines.
You've lost me. You argue a daemon engine must hit on 3s because it's a space marine unit, but other space marine units can't hit on 3s because they're intended to die?
Why can't chaff hit on 3s?
You clearly lack the reading comprehension to follow VH's argument, or to make arguments about what the fluff implies for the power level of demon engines. Leave that discussion to other people in the future please.
40K the game has never in its history given a gak about the fluff.
Also something that's important to note is that the connections between game mechanics and fluff is flimsy at best and depends entirely on PoV. I can easily argue that daemon engines being BS3+ is fluffier than them being BS4+, for example.
Further, cultists are a chaos space marine unit. By your logic they are and should hit on 3s.
No, because the codex fluff states that cultists are a chaff unit. It states no such thing about demon engines.
You've lost me. You argue a daemon engine must hit on 3s because it's a space marine unit, but other space marine units can't hit on 3s because they're intended to die?
Why can't chaff hit on 3s?
You clearly lack the reading comprehension to follow VH's argument, or to make arguments about what the fluff implies for the power level of demon engines. Leave that discussion to other people in the future please.
Please illuminate me, VH argued the daemon engines should be bs/ws3 because they're in the chaos space marine codex, nothing more or less.
What have I incorrectly interpreted there? If you extrapolate that logic, why shouldn't everything in the book be bs/ws3 because it's in the chaos marine book.
And yes, cultists are, but they fulfill a different role in the codex. Their only purpose is to be chaff used by the big boys, hence their gak stats and the existence of the "cannon fodder" stratagem.
This is incorrect. A daemon engine is not a chaos space marine and does not have a chaos space marine piloting it either.
I like the idea of Daemon Engines getting BS 3+ because that feels more accurate to me, for no reason but my arbitrary feelings on the subject. I like the look of Daemon Engines. A force that focuses on them would be my second-list that I plan to build for my Chaos Marines, having accumulated a 2nd edition Terminators, Dreads and Land Raider with Abbadon as the first force.
It feels like the right place to put them, for me.
CSM units hit on 3.
Demon engines are a CSM unit.
Cultists hit on 4 because theyre meant to be nothing more than bodies used by the rest of the army.
Its the same concept as Servitors hitting on 5's (or 4's with a tech-dude), theyre purposely expendably units in their armies.
Yeah I get that, but just because it sits in codex X doesn't mean it has to ape every other unit in the codex.
A soul grinder as noted above is in the daemons codex with ws/bs4+
You're selectively applying your logic there
Look, its clear you've made up your mind on the subject, which is fine. I'm just presenting you with my argument that CSM are mostly an elite army. Having demon engines that hit on 4 makes them feel not elite. Cultists are fine with bs/ws 4 because theyre explicitely meant to be a bad/cheap unit, demon engines aren't. And anyways, i don't think cultists should be in the CSM codex but thats a whole other thread.
CSM units hit on 3.
Demon engines are a CSM unit.
Cultists hit on 4 because theyre meant to be nothing more than bodies used by the rest of the army.
Its the same concept as Servitors hitting on 5's (or 4's with a tech-dude), theyre purposely expendably units in their armies.
Yeah I get that, but just because it sits in codex X doesn't mean it has to ape every other unit in the codex.
A soul grinder as noted above is in the daemons codex with ws/bs4+
You're selectively applying your logic there
Look, its clear you've made up your mind on the subject, which is fine. I'm just presenting you with my argument that CSM are mostly an elite army. Having demon engines that hit on 4 makes them feel not elite. Cultists are fine with bs/ws 4 because theyre explicitely meant to be a bad/cheap unit, demon engines aren't. And anyways, i don't think cultists should be in the CSM codex but thats a whole other thread.
Agree entirely that lost & damned should be a thing, and if your view is you want stuff to have better stats to feel more elite that's fine as well.
Ultimately it's irrelevant since it will be what it will be, I appreciate the discussion.
Personally my issue is the other way around. The rules are always being twisted around to suit whatever arbitrary fluff reasons GW decide is now the new truth. That's been my experience with basically every Necron codex release since Matt Ward started the trend in 5th edition. I know some other factions are lucky to have had more statistically stable armies until now though though.
Dudeface wrote: Please illuminate me, VH argued the daemon engines should be bs/ws3 because they're in the chaos space marine codex, nothing more or less.
What have I incorrectly interpreted there? If you extrapolate that logic, why shouldn't everything in the book be bs/ws3 because it's in the chaos marine book.
The difference is that, unlike in your headcanon, the actual 40k material does not portray demon engines as expendable troops but rather expensive and effective pieces of materiel. Cultists are noted as being expendable, hence their diminished statline.
No, they are not. You automatically lost the argument.
Also Cultists are in the same exact codex, so we should increase them to WS/BS3+ for the consistency you're apparently craving.
Just saying i lost an argument doesnt mean i did.
Why do you disagree that demon engines in the CSM codexes are CSM units?
Because there isnt actual space marines driving it? Because by that logic, drop pods aren't space marines...
And Drop Pods shouldn't have a BS3+ for their gun just because they're in a codex with Space Marines. Ball's in your court.
CSM units hit on 3.
Demon engines are a CSM unit.
Cultists hit on 4 because theyre meant to be nothing more than bodies used by the rest of the army.
Its the same concept as Servitors hitting on 5's (or 4's with a tech-dude), theyre purposely expendably units in their armies.
Yeah I get that, but just because it sits in codex X doesn't mean it has to ape every other unit in the codex.
A soul grinder as noted above is in the daemons codex with ws/bs4+
You're selectively applying your logic there
Look, its clear you've made up your mind on the subject, which is fine. I'm just presenting you with my argument that CSM are mostly an elite army. Having demon engines that hit on 4 makes them feel not elite. Cultists are fine with bs/ws 4 because theyre explicitely meant to be a bad/cheap unit, demon engines aren't. And anyways, i don't think cultists should be in the CSM codex but thats a whole other thread.
Hitting on a 4+ is plenty elite. Or should we argue that Terminators and Aggressors should have no hit penalty on their Power Fists?
Hitting on a 4+ is plenty elite. Or should we argue that Terminators and Aggressors should have no hit penalty on their Power Fists?
Terminators hit on 3 tho. The penalty is because you chose to run them with a specific weapon. If youre gonna waste my time with false equivalences, i'm not gonna engag with you further
Hitting on a 4+ is plenty elite. Or should we argue that Terminators and Aggressors should have no hit penalty on their Power Fists?
It sounds like you are arguing that they should be hitting on a 4+ without powerfists as well.
If the complaint is that hitting on a 4+ is never Elite, no "Elite" unit should ever suffer a hit penalty with base gear that would do so. Is that correct?
Or should we accept the very premise that was set up by Vladimir was really fething stupid to begin with? I think the latter makes a lot more sense especially with that pathetic defense using the Drop Pod.
Hitting on a 4+ is plenty elite. Or should we argue that Terminators and Aggressors should have no hit penalty on their Power Fists?
Terminators hit on 3 tho. The penalty is because you chose to run them with a specific weapon. If youre gonna waste my time with false equivalences, i'm not gonna engag with you further
They don't with the base wargear they get via Thunder hammers and Power Fists. Therefore they aren't elite. Thanks for playing.
And Drop Pods shouldn't have a BS3+ for their gun just because they're in a codex with Space Marines. Ball's in your court.
Drop Pods utility isn't really to kill, but to deliver troops. PBC and MBL are there to kill units, not deliver troops or deep strike. You are comparing very incomparable things. The ball hasn't left your court yet.
Hitting on a 4+ is plenty elite. Or should we argue that Terminators and Aggressors should have no hit penalty on their Power Fists?
Your argument would hold water if all the terminator weapons hit on 4+, not just the Power Fist. I do find it amusing that you are using Power Fists in your argument as they have changed in the game due to rulesets evolving.
There is also an argument to be made that 4+ is quite average considering that Imperial Guard, which tends to have 4+ BS. Does that, according to your argument, then make Imperial Guard an elite army?
I'll be blunt. I think it is pretty much nonsense to argue that 3+ or 4+ is a question of lore as A) six-sided dice don't leave a lot of room for options to begin with, and B) nowhere in the lore does it read "When Mortarion perfected his cruel creation he made sure that it would only hit on a 4+ in honor of his daemon patriarch. A labor of love he had to mold that ballistic skill with great precision and intellect. He would not suffer his creation to exceed the 3+ ballistic skill of his infantry. "
Seriously, there is nothing in the lore that explicitly states this. I get moving from 4+ to 3+ rulewise can potentially improve the ruleset and make the item in question viable when you can't buff it with rerolls as before(people seem to forget that this is very likely going to happen to DG). What I don't get is when people claim some obscure, yet explicit, lore that claims that 3+ is somehow unfluffy. So we are arguing between a verifiable thing(ruleset) and unverifiable thing(unwritten head canon of a select few).
People also seem to forget that Myphitic Blight-Launchers were hitting on 3+ because of their squad rule, but apparently it's in vogue to hate on Death Guard right now. I mean, if we are just going to state our head-canon as fact I'll just say that in my head-canon Daemon Engines are supernatural, terrifying and lethal creatures
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: ]
They don't with the base wargear they get via Thunder hammers and Power Fists. Therefore they aren't elite. Thanks for playing.
Nope! You insisting you won an argument just makes it look more and mote like you lost.
Maulerfiend: Hits on a 4+ with its fists
Terminator or Aggressor: Hits on a 4+ with its fists or hammers
So why are Terminators "elite" feeling and Maulerfiends aren't? Or are you creating mental gymnastics that the 3+ is in the profile, and Maulerfiends would be just as elite if they had WS3+ but -1 to hit on their fists?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: ]
They don't with the base wargear they get via Thunder hammers and Power Fists. Therefore they aren't elite. Thanks for playing.
Nope! You insisting you won an argument just makes it look more and mote like you lost.
Maulerfiend: Hits on a 4+ with its fists
Terminator or Aggressor: Hits on a 4+ with its fists or hammers
So why are Terminators "elite" feeling and Maulerfiends aren't? Or are you creating mental gymnastics that the 3+ is in the profile, and Maulerfiends would be just as elite if they had WS3+ but -1 to hit on their fists?
No, maulerfiends hit on 4 with any weapons.
Terminator hit on 3, with a -1 to hit if you chose to play them with anti-tank weaponry.
If terminators were BW/WS 4+ on the datasheet your argument would mean something, right now youre just being daft.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: ]
They don't with the base wargear they get via Thunder hammers and Power Fists. Therefore they aren't elite. Thanks for playing.
Nope! You insisting you won an argument just makes it look more and mote like you lost.
Maulerfiend: Hits on a 4+ with its fists
Terminator or Aggressor: Hits on a 4+ with its fists or hammers
So why are Terminators "elite" feeling and Maulerfiends aren't? Or are you creating mental gymnastics that the 3+ is in the profile, and Maulerfiends would be just as elite if they had WS3+ but -1 to hit on their fists?
Terminators hit on 3s with chainaxes, lightning claws, power swords, power mauls, etc, etc. They only hit on 4s with power fists, thunder hammers, and chainfists because those are big, bulky, unwieldy weapons, but they're so elite they still hit 50% of the time with them. Give those same weapons to something not elite, that normally hits on 4s, and suddenly it's hitting only 33% of the time. Give them to something clumsy, say WS5, and it's only hitting 16% of the time. But terminators can still hit 50% of the time with them. That makes them elite. Give a WS3 Maulerfiend a weapon with more damage, AP, and strength than it's normal fists that's -1 to hit with and it would still be elite, same as when hitting on 3s with its normal fists. You know this.
I wouldn't say the game is more or less heading down that hole. However I will say that saying " balance " is a good reason for them to mix up the game state and make things better or worse at breakneck pace and push whats good or bad way faster than usual.
Now none of us want years of having things suck, but they don't tend to really do much balancing for all things, at least not well. It seems more like let something be overly good, then nerf it, then un nerf it then mix it around. While at the same time letting some units that have sucked for a long time, still suck drop after drop and chance after chance.
I wish the balance stuff was actually about making things viable and less about just moving around flavor of the month like a shell game.
Dudeface wrote: Please illuminate me, VH argued the daemon engines should be bs/ws3 because they're in the chaos space marine codex, nothing more or less.
What have I incorrectly interpreted there? If you extrapolate that logic, why shouldn't everything in the book be bs/ws3 because it's in the chaos marine book.
The difference is that, unlike in your headcanon, the actual 40k material does not portray demon engines as expendable troops but rather expensive and effective pieces of materiel. Cultists are noted as being expendable, hence their diminished statline.
You criticise my reading comprehension but you're all over the place with this.
VH posed that daemon engines should hit on 3's purely because they're a chaos space marine unit. Drop pods hit on 3's purely because they're a space marine unit (which is daft).
Cultists are a chaos space marine unit, therefore following the same logical approach they should hit on 3's. It's really not a complicated process.
I don't think cultists should hit on 3's, likewise I never asserted they weren't cannon fodder. But I also don't think a cannon fodder unit should be restricted from hitting on 3's and in fact many are. I reference you to daemonettes, blood letters for horde units hitting on 3's.
You're needlessly offensive with your posts, VH who you're defending manages to stand their ground without petty insults, maybe try to live up to that standard.
I also sat and thought about BS/ws in general. There are more "elite" armies than not now I think? Only orks (bs) and tau (ws) being below average and guard, nids and tau (bs) being the only majority average armies.
Dudeface wrote: ...I also sat and thought about BS/ws in general. There are more "elite" armies than not now I think? Only orks (bs) and tau (ws) being below average and guard, nids and tau (bs) being the only majority average armies...
Which is about par for GW design. They figure everyone needs to be cool, and end up compressing their own design space to achieve it. Look at the evolution of Ld and Ld-related rules from 3rd through 7th; people complain about Sweeping Advances, but by the end of 7th just about everyone was pretty immune to the morale mechanics.
VH posed that daemon engines should hit on 3's purely because they're a chaos space marine unit. Drop pods hit on 3's purely because they're a space marine unit (which is daft).
This was a sarcastic response to your insistence that because demon engines weren't space marines they weren't elite units.
Dudeface wrote: Cultists are a chaos space marine unit, therefore following the same logical approach they should hit on 3's. It's really not a complicated process.
Except it would not be logical to use the same approach on cultists because they're stated to be an expendable unit not up to the par of Traitor Astartes, unlike demon engines. You're basically trying to imply thst demon engines occupy the same tier of eliteness in the CSM codex as cultists, which is laughable.
I don't think cultists should hit on 3's, likewise I never asserted they weren't cannon fodder. But I also don't think a cannon fodder unit should be restricted from hitting on 3's and in fact many are. I reference you to daemonettes, blood letters for horde units hitting on 3's.
Hmmm, and if those ws 3+ units are shoved inside a demon engine they'd hit on 3's there too, seems to make sense.
You're needlessly offensive with your posts, VH who you're defending manages to stand their ground without petty insults, maybe try to live up to that standard.
There have already many people in this thread who have calmly and patiently explained to you why you're wrong with references from books. I'm trying a blunt approach because politeness doesn't work on you.
VH posed that daemon engines should hit on 3's purely because they're a chaos space marine unit. Drop pods hit on 3's purely because they're a space marine unit (which is daft).
This was a sarcastic response to your insistence that because demon engines weren't space marines they weren't elite units.
Don't follow, a drop pod isn't a space marine, it hits on 3's, it shouldn't. If anything that actually proves the point? Or are you saying drop pods are elite units?
Dudeface wrote: Cultists are a chaos space marine unit, therefore following the same logical approach they should hit on 3's. It's really not a complicated process.
Except it would not be logical to use the same approach on cultists because they're stated to be an expendable unit not up to the par of Traitor Astartes, unlike demon engines. You're basically trying to imply thst demon engines occupy the same tier of eliteness in the CSM codex as cultists, which is laughable.
I agree it is laughable, I'm arguing that they're as accurate as a trained human, who are clearly so bad as to be laughable.
I don't think cultists should hit on 3's, likewise I never asserted they weren't cannon fodder. But I also don't think a cannon fodder unit should be restricted from hitting on 3's and in fact many are. I reference you to daemonettes, blood letters for horde units hitting on 3's.
Hmmm, and if those ws 3+ units are shoved inside a demon engine they'd hit on 3's there too, seems to make sense.
Glad you agree, so why are 4+/4+ nurgle daemons hitting on 3s in engines then?
You're needlessly offensive with your posts, VH who you're defending manages to stand their ground without petty insults, maybe try to live up to that standard.
There have already many people in this thread who have calmly and patiently explained to you why you're wrong with references from books. I'm trying a blunt approach because politeness doesn't work on you.
I'm allowed an opinion, it doesn't give you right to be a dick just because I don't agree with yours. You could opt to simply not interact.
Dudeface, we are at 5 pages now and you have provided exactly zero fluff support for a single thing you have said outside of the statlines in old codices which are not fluff.
It's really time to either bring in those quotes or wiki articles or anything really OR concede that your issue with daemon engines going to 3+ is not related to fluff at all.
Jidmah wrote: Dudeface, we are at 5 pages now and you have provided exactly zero fluff support for a single thing you have said outside of the statlines in old codices which are not fluff.
It's really time to either bring in those quotes or wiki articles or anything really OR concede that your issue with daemon engines going to 3+ is not related to fluff at all.
I've stated a few times now it's been shown by others there isn’t a conclusive statement either way and I'm happy to roll with it going forwards in spite of my feelings.
I do worry about a blandening of profiles but that isn't a fluff issue agreed.
In honesty I think I need a break from this community for a bit, maybe just in general.
Hitting on a 4+ is plenty elite. Or should we argue that Terminators and Aggressors should have no hit penalty on their Power Fists?
Terminators hit on 3 tho. The penalty is because you chose to run them with a specific weapon. If youre gonna waste my time with false equivalences, i'm not gonna engag with you further
Sometimes even on 2s. SW dudes have +1 to hit pretty much everytime so their fists/hammer do swing on 3s typically.
It'd be better for everyone if they just calmed down a wee bit.
Is just toy soldiers after all yeah ?
Gonna put a -- temp ? -- lock on this for now after far too many alerts/infractions and a few requests, does seem the thread has run its course anyhow.
