MODS: please move this to the appropriate section if this isn't the right place for this sort of thing.
I've been pondering a bit about this topic. For some the notion of people simply selling or giving away STL's means the death of 'traditional' miniature design and production. To others it's simply a new form to be explored. Perhaps putting such a question here might mean I'm dropping it in a place that's potentially biased. But I am very curious to hear your thoughts on this.
Personally I'm a bit conflicted about the whole thing. Yeah, I design 3D stuff, sometimes I manage to sell it off to indie companies who then put it in production (printing and then casting). I love the idea that I can simply sit behind my laptop and design whatever I want. But on the other hand I see plenty of indie companies having an almost daily existential crisis whenever someone buys a 3D printer to do stuff at home.
So yeah, how will this whole thing develop? Will 3D printing kill off those indie companies, or is it simply another means to do stuff? Or is it more likely something in between?
at some point but we're years away as none of this is "plug and play" and require effort to clean up and, with the case of resin, is pretty toxic (even the safe stuff advertised is really nasty. It's just safer then the normal stuff but still not anything I'd like kids use).
I think for tabletop gamming AR is more likely to kill physical models (especially for those that produce models for the RPG crowd) which could cause the demise of a lot of demand for minis and it will just be the people that enjoy the physical aspect of the hobby will keep doing it.
Overall, I don't think it'll ever shift to a "purely digital" kind of thing in this hobby, where the only thing you can buy is STLs to print yourself. Even as they are becoming more affordable, usable, and more folks have them, 3d printers will never be the complete market for a variety of reasons. Some folks won't want to mess with it, so there will still be a market for "pre printed" stuff to just buy off the shelf.
Do I think we'll see more directly 3d printed models for sale, without going through the current flow of making molds from the 3d printed master and making resin casts? Yeah, I kinda do think we'll get there, and honestly for small shops that might be a good thing.
Yes, this means a shift from physical sculpting with putties and so on is becoming rarer, but even then I don't think it will go away entirely. It just won't be the main method of production. Even with an eventual shift to more digital masters, there will always be a market for "hand sculpted" and "traditionally cast" models.
Having bought a 3D printer recently, I think we are a LONG way off if it ever happens
1) The cost of the printer, accessories and all the rest easily equals a 2K army in costs. Remembering that you still need all the same tools for model cleanup, assembly and painting after you get the model out. So you don't save on any of the standard hobby accessories
Whilst you can argue that the printer saves money in the long run on models, there's still a very steep upfront cost just for the hobby alone. Very steep compared to regular model buying from a store
2) It takes HOURS to make a model. Granted smaller infantry you can load up the build plate; but still in the time to print a few parts of a large model you could drive to a store, buy it, bring it home, clean and build it in less time than it takes to print.
Bigger, higher resolution printers will reduce this somewhat, but you're still looking at hours upon hours to print
3) It's technical. There's a rafter of settings for setting up the printer digitally and that's assuming you stick to 1 brand of resin. Change brands and you've got to start all over again. Failures can be caused by several aspects and there's a steep learning curve in getting good prints out of the machine.
Add this to the hours to print aspect and there's a higher level of frustration for those who might want a more immediate result or at least success.
Again your store bought model resolves all that in seconds
4) I don't "see" the market for 3D model design for companies. Right now almost all the 3D models I see for sale are sold by basically one to a few designers and someone doing some support work. Basically REALLY small teams.
Unless a company could get their own machines to sell (and honestly GW might be the only firm big enough to attempt that barring one of the 3D printing firms doing it themselves) or find other ways to monetize I can't is it offering the same level of growth.
At least unless files could be limited to total numbers of prints that can be made from them -but when you factor in the calibration and high chance for a fail (even a bad temp or not shaking the resin could cause a fail) I can't see that being attractive nor practical.
Overall I see it being niche for a very long time to come. Especially as its not child friendly in the least; which is a key demographic for growing a miniature range (or you're relying on poaching GW customers).
I'd honestly say its perhaps more risk to things like Reaper Miniatures and the like; companies focusing on making models for DnD and such. But even there I can't see it taking off big - esp as "the hobby" is often a much smaller part of their setup.
Now it might be that 3D printers replace regular spincasting and plastic injection moulding. AT the very least they might allow for modest sized firms to use them as a different production type. But with the long hours to print I'm not sure if it would be practical for firms like GW to shift from plastic injection moulds for mass market. Resin printers are slower so you'd need many many machines and they are more labour intensive - you've got to walk to each machine; remove models; remove them from supports without breaking; wash; cure; setup the machine for the next.
There's room for advancing and room for growth and its on the grow right now (my own machine is living proof of that). But I think we are a very long way from 3D printing being the revolution that change the market for big firms and casual gamers (of which there are many)
I think 3D printing will eventually make large-scale scale model and miniature production redundant. It will become a niche thing, like what has happened with paper printing services. Some small shops will have better equipment than you and know how to get max quality out of their prints, but there is nothing stopping you from getting adequate results in your own home.
Now as for how long it will take until tech has matured to such a state that 16K printers can be bought from Walmart for about a hundred, and nontoxic, water washable resin costs pennies per kg, I don't know.. could be anything from 5-15 years.
You must remember that 3D printers have a lot of practical uses outside of scale models & miniatures. Therefore I see it as inevitable that the tech will mature significantly going forward, to the point where it's idiot-proof as well as child-proof to print HD items.
But the art of painting scale models / miniatures will likely be around for much, much longer.
Now it might be that 3D printers replace regular spincasting and plastic injection moulding. AT the very least they might allow for modest sized firms to use them as a different production type. But with the long hours to print I'm not sure if it would be practical for firms like GW to shift from plastic injection moulds for mass market. Resin printers are slower so you'd need many many machines and they are more labour intensive - you've got to walk to each machine; remove models; remove them from supports without breaking; wash; cure; setup the machine for the next.
For large-scale production, like GW and the bigger firms need, direct 3d printing isn't cost effective, for sure. If you're doing thousands of models of a given sprue, plastic injection is the most cost effective (even though it has the highest set up costs in the molds). For smaller indie companies, who sell maybe 100 of a given model in a year, I think direct 3d printing is actually a pretty good option, since you can "print on demand" as needed to fill orders and maybe add a little backstock. This was talked about a bit in the other thread I linked, with some insight from folks who have done it to fulfill Kickstarters and so on. "Boutique" shops would likely benefit the most from this method, but there's definitely a point where the volume needed would push you towards injection molding (though I'm not sure right now about the metal spin casting cost comparison; resin casting is pretty close for low to medium volumes, including labor time).
I'm sure even Reaper does enough volume that it's still a better cost for them to do the molds and injection runs, particularly with their Bones line.
It's taking a large bite out of spin casting for sure. But until the grognards who, after a lifetime of lead exposure, lack the mental acumen to switch over die of old age, there will be a market for resins and even metals.
Injection molding, probably never. Printing is just too slow and nasty to compete with machines that barf out a sprue every 2 seconds.
Aye those in both of those situations the market isn't actually changing, just the production method and material. You'd still have to buy your model/sprue from the store and perhaps even put it together. What it would mean is total freedom to create almost whatever shape the designer wants without having ot have highly skill parting staff working the back end to design the moulds. This is something where GW has a very clear edge over many of the competition; especially so when its all in-house and easy to communicate (those dealing with factories in China have not just a language barrier, but also vast distances and all the rest to contend with).
Customers might not see any change at all in terms of costs. However it might well allow smaller firms to carry a larger range of models if they can shift to print on demand services. This, of course, will only work if online buying becomes more and more normal and if model makers can also network together to create a system whereby once you're into the hobby its easy to navigate online and find different designers and firms.
Of course this is also suggesting that wargames and models become a less highstreet focused product, which isn't impossible to consider when one thinks of the general highstreets of today. Stores might wind up closing doors as a shop and reopen as a community and game centre bolted onto a restaurant and such. Supplying basic hobby essentials perhaps, but in general not worried about having to sell the "game" itself.
Though as noted above some might well do local print on demand supply for customers - networking with designers and game makers to get access to licences to print and such.
I think one elephant in the room we have to consider is money. The market as such will go where the money is and if something comes along that might take the money away it might never actually get developed and pushed for. Take the point above about making other things with a resin 3D printer - the idea of building or repairing and replacing things at home is almost an alien concept to todays business and market which would instead expect you to throw it away and buy a new one (heck some even build products designed to break - or at least designed to be as weak as they can get away with). It would require a massive social shift in attitudes from customers to big business and a shift in how we spend our money and how firms can profit off customers.
this isn't just big business either; its also at the small end of the scale too. There HAS to be profit to provide for a persons income to allow them to dedicate their working life (or a portion of it) toward game work.
Customers might not see any change at all in terms of costs. However it might well allow smaller firms to carry a larger range of models if they can shift to print on demand services. This, of course, will only work if online buying becomes more and more normal and if model makers can also network together to create a system whereby once you're into the hobby its easy to navigate online and find different designers and firms.
Also, a great number of the pretty successful Patreons that are doing 3d files do offer a "merchant" level, where you get a license to print and sell their stuff. So yeah, that's a new trend. I could see some small businesses doing ok (and some appear to be already, on etsy and eBay for example) just subbing to those Patreons and offering a POD service.
Of course we haven't seen the long term medical fallout of printer farms yet, it might still turn out that being elbow deep in resin 24/7 is asbestos level bad.
Maybe I'm looking too far in advance but my assumptions of eventually is we'll get some new 3dprinting tech, or our kids will, that will render a lot of products being manufactured moot.
I have to agree with the people saying it needs to get a LOT easier first. I like 3d printing, but doing it is easily a hobby in itself. They're fiddly and technical.
In the foreseeable future, the biggest change is that you're going to see a wider variety of figures from more small companies. If you go look on etsy, there's a LOT of 3d printed minis out there and it's just going to expand. Printing will probably never match injection molding for mass production, but it has a big advantage in variety. We're entering a world where it's feasible for a small business to produce really good small runs of stuff.
TheWaspinator wrote: I have to agree with the people saying it needs to get a LOT easier first. I like 3d printing, but doing it is easily a hobby in itself. They're fiddly and technical.
In the foreseeable future, the biggest change is that you're going to see a wider variety of figures from more small companies. If you go look on etsy, there's a LOT of 3d printed minis out there and it's just going to expand. Printing will probably never match injection molding for mass production, but it has a big advantage in variety. We're entering a world where it's feasible for a small business to produce really good small runs of stuff.
And for garage companies to finally produce wargames with complete model lines in STL form. Imagine a 40k type game releasing with 10+ factions right off the bat, including tanks or monsters that are far beyond most companies' abilities to supply physically, along with any unique templates, widgets and dice the designers' hearts desire.
But it does leave one to wonder how such companies will keep making money. In theory one person can get their hands on the STL files and then theyre gone
Malika2 wrote: But it does leave one to wonder how such companies will keep making money. In theory one person can get their hands on the STL files and then theyre gone
The same is true of video games, movies and music.
Possibly with FDM for terrain, since it has just massively blown up the market and potential, MDF is now looking a little weak in comparison to printed, fully detailed terrain.
FDM can be plug-and-play, my broad experience with a prusa mini has been pretty straightforward, very easy to use and complexity of fixing it when things go wrong isn't all that different to an inkjet printer jam. Once bed levelling is no longer a thing by standard and enclosures/reliability tech currently reserved for expensive printers (ultimakers are the gold standard at current) becomes more commonplace it will reach the point of becoming a common hobby tool.
Resin printing for minis will always have the chemical gunk issue, and that's harder to resolve. Eventually there may be a printer that self drains, cleans, and cures and spits out a nice finished piece at the end but until then the ick factor will keep it from going mainstream.
I think it will eventually make certain kinds of mini manufacture unprofitable. It's hardly profitable for many producers as is.
I think people will still sculpt by hand though. People didn't stop painting with canvas or playing on physical instruments because of software replacements.
3D printing is far away from being a problem for plastic miniatures
unless there is a printer in every house, it is not really an issue
a realistic number would be that there are 1-2 high quality printer in each gaming club
making a full army will take about half a week and 20 people of the club want to start a new game
so 5-10 weeks waiting time and the minis are not ready to use but need some additional work of cleaning up as well
on the other hand the trend is going to less work needed for modeling and free poseable minis are already too much for some people
for those 3D printing their own models will never be an option
the price point is a tricky one, as for now it is attractive because of GWs price point
anyone who playes 2 factions feels that it is cheaper to buy a printer and some files than buy directly from GW
while looking at historical models, unless you want something really exotic that no one makes (and here you might have to make your own STL files first) you won't make your money back by just printing 2 armies
for a worldwide model release for a new range or new game, HIPS will still be the way to go
Malika2 wrote: But it does leave one to wonder how such companies will keep making money. In theory one person can get their hands on the STL files and then theyre gone
The same is true of video games, movies and music.
That's interesting concept. As while it's true wargaming takes so much time on the players part before they can even play the game (print, assemble, possibly paint, possibly terrain) that it's not quite the same as other forms of entertainment that you can just start consuming near instantly (some games have a download) so I don't know if company really could release a new wargame every year with new rules and such and have people really keep buying them. But every 3-4 years where everything is out at the start. Be curious to see how that lands.
I was responding more to Malika's assertion that piracy will sink digital sales.
Obviously just churning out endless product for digital hoarders who barely really even print anything is a good way to combat it, as the hundreds of STL patreons and KS show. There's always a thousand people happy to back the 47th medieval fantasy village.
I also firmly believe that people understand that artists need to eat and there will always be enough who financially support quality work even if it's available for free.
I think one of the keys for indie companies to keep a good revenue flow is to emulate the various Patreons that do 3d miniatures right now. You "subscribe" essentially, paying X bucks per month, and you get some goodies every month.
Artisan Guild, for example, charges $10 USD per month, with an optional tier for $35 that lets you sell their prints (not their STLs). They have, as I type this, 7,992 patrons. That's at least $79,920 they're bringing in per month (not sure what the break down of regular vs. merchant is, so just estimated with the lowest tier).
A small company might be able to get some type of subscription going, and whether they're giving new STLs or other content every month, they might actually do better than if trying to go into the regular old market with distributors (which is getting harder and harder to do) and trying to get LGSes to stock their product. Not saying it's easy nor a guarantee, just that along with the increasing popularity of STLs, there are other selling venues/methods as well.
Having bought a 3D printer recently, I think we are a LONG way off if it ever happens
1) The cost of the printer, accessories and all the rest easily equals a 2K army in costs. Remembering that you still need all the same tools for model cleanup, assembly and painting after you get the model out. So you don't save on any of the standard hobby accessories
Whilst you can argue that the printer saves money in the long run on models, there's still a very steep upfront cost just for the hobby alone. Very steep compared to regular model buying from a store
2) It takes HOURS to make a model. Granted smaller infantry you can load up the build plate; but still in the time to print a few parts of a large model you could drive to a store, buy it, bring it home, clean and build it in less time than it takes to print.
Bigger, higher resolution printers will reduce this somewhat, but you're still looking at hours upon hours to print
3) It's technical. There's a rafter of settings for setting up the printer digitally and that's assuming you stick to 1 brand of resin. Change brands and you've got to start all over again. Failures can be caused by several aspects and there's a steep learning curve in getting good prints out of the machine.
Add this to the hours to print aspect and there's a higher level of frustration for those who might want a more immediate result or at least success.
Again your store bought model resolves all that in seconds
4) I don't "see" the market for 3D model design for companies. Right now almost all the 3D models I see for sale are sold by basically one to a few designers and someone doing some support work. Basically REALLY small teams.
Unless a company could get their own machines to sell (and honestly GW might be the only firm big enough to attempt that barring one of the 3D printing firms doing it themselves) or find other ways to monetize I can't is it offering the same level of growth.
At least unless files could be limited to total numbers of prints that can be made from them -but when you factor in the calibration and high chance for a fail (even a bad temp or not shaking the resin could cause a fail) I can't see that being attractive nor practical.
Overall I see it being niche for a very long time to come. Especially as its not child friendly in the least; which is a key demographic for growing a miniature range (or you're relying on poaching GW customers).
I'd honestly say its perhaps more risk to things like Reaper Miniatures and the like; companies focusing on making models for DnD and such. But even there I can't see it taking off big - esp as "the hobby" is often a much smaller part of their setup.
Now it might be that 3D printers replace regular spincasting and plastic injection moulding. AT the very least they might allow for modest sized firms to use them as a different production type. But with the long hours to print I'm not sure if it would be practical for firms like GW to shift from plastic injection moulds for mass market. Resin printers are slower so you'd need many many machines and they are more labour intensive - you've got to walk to each machine; remove models; remove them from supports without breaking; wash; cure; setup the machine for the next.
There's room for advancing and room for growth and its on the grow right now (my own machine is living proof of that). But I think we are a very long way from 3D printing being the revolution that change the market for big firms and casual gamers (of which there are many)
One other factor that keeps people from getting a printer and main reason why I haven't, space. Not everyone has a spot in the house they can setup a printer and wash station and deal with the mess from printing. Especially a space where you don't need to worry about fumes. And for those who say there are resins that don't smell, I have worked around enough chemicals throughout my career that just because you can't smell it, doesn't mean it isn't hazardous.
For the industry, I don't see it replacing plastics, but it wouldn't surprise me if in the near future, people started getting Forgeworld kits that were printed.
You all are talking about plastics like any miniature company can afford to make them and there's what? 3-4 in the fantasy sci-fi and then a few in historicals (which I don't really follow) out of how many different companies?
What if GW offered a heroforge type of site where you could customize poses and equipment for everything in your army and they printed it and shipped it to you? What if new colored printing tech was made affordable to companies like GW so you didn't have to paint anything and didn't look like sand? Why would people want plastics?
1) miniature tabletop gaming is already an anachronistic hobby compared to video gaming. We are doing this because we prefer an analog experience. AR gaming is, in my eyes, incredibly unlikely to replace miniatures.
2) we exist in a world in which the collossal greed of corporations often succeeds at torpedoing what could be promising new technology. When there are no established pricing norms in place from a more reasonable age, market demand can easily be demolished by money grubbing. Streaming, VR, advanced 3d movies, e-readers, any industry that doesnt have preexisting market expectation and competition is at high risk to be pumped and dumped by The Most Efficient Way To Organize A Society Ever Pinky Swearsies
Piracy is / will be a thing, that's unavoidable. But the music and film industries have survived it and the rise of 3D printing patreons are evidence that it can be managed here too. The key is to keep things cheap enough and easily accessible enough that piracy doesn't become the better option. Artisan Guild and Titan Forge, among others, show that people are indeed willing to pay $10 to avoid having to go to sketchy websites.
Malika2 wrote: But it does leave one to wonder how such companies will keep making money. In theory one person can get their hands on the STL files and then theyre gone
The same is true of video games, movies and music.
Which isn't a good thing per se. Many famous musicians are forced to sell off their entire catalogs because making actual money by selling music to their fans has become...well...not that lucrative anymore. So if I as a designer would release my STL's into the world, how would I break even?
1) miniature tabletop gaming is already an anachronistic hobby compared to video gaming. We are doing this because we prefer an analog experience. AR gaming is, in my eyes, incredibly unlikely to replace miniatures.
You're thinking wargaming. which I think there will always be some people that like the analog experience but newer generations that might grow up with whatever AR ends up being probably wouldn't be as opposed to digital in person gaming.
That being said AR's big impact will be in the larger market of RPGs which a lot of of miniature purchases are for and I don't see many there caring to keep the analog aspect for the battles. You already see that with Roll20 and RPG servers for MMOs.
Malika2 wrote: But it does leave one to wonder how such companies will keep making money. In theory one person can get their hands on the STL files and then theyre gone
The same is true of video games, movies and music.
Which isn't a good thing per se. Many famous musicians are forced to sell off their entire catalogs because making actual money by selling music to their fans has become...well...not that lucrative anymore. So if I as a designer would release my STL's into the world, how would I break even?
Perhaps that state of affairs stems more from fans realizing that record labels keep 99% of the profits anyway. They should all just have Paypal donate buttons, if you squeeze em 5$ once they'll have made more money off of you than if you bought all their albums.
You're Troublemaker Games, right? Pretty sure it's all online, so you have first hand experience on the effects already.
Malika2 wrote: But it does leave one to wonder how such companies will keep making money. In theory one person can get their hands on the STL files and then theyre gone
The same is true of video games, movies and music.
Which isn't a good thing per se. Many famous musicians are forced to sell off their entire catalogs because making actual money by selling music to their fans has become...well...not that lucrative anymore. So if I as a designer would release my STL's into the world, how would I break even?
Perhaps that state of affairs stems more from fans realizing that record labels keep 99% of the profits anyway. They should all just have Paypal donate buttons, if you squeeze em 5$ once they'll have made more money off of you than if you bought all their albums.
You're Troublemaker Games, right? Pretty sure it's all online, so you have first hand experience on the effects already.
Regarding that money model you suggest, it's not that hopeful sadly enough. Whilst yes, some would donate, most would want the free option. Can't blame them, this is how capitalism programs us. But it does have certain consequences. Especially now that concerts arent happening.
And Im not Troublemaker Games btw, I do however do some desogn work for Vanguard Miniatures
What if GW offered a heroforge type of site where you could customize poses and equipment for everything in your army and they printed it and shipped it to you? What if new colored printing tech was made affordable to companies like GW so you didn't have to paint anything and didn't look like sand? Why would people want plastics?
difference between getting your army now or wait 2-3 months until it is printed
as even GW would not be able to set up a printer for each order coming in, so people would have to wait until their unit is done
not talking about that much more people need to work on the factory to maintain those things, increasing the costs and in addition to waiting time there would be a higher price too
so why would people want to have cheap plastic now, when they can wait months for their more expensive 3D printed unit
What if GW offered a heroforge type of site where you could customize poses and equipment for everything in your army and they printed it and shipped it to you? What if new colored printing tech was made affordable to companies like GW so you didn't have to paint anything and didn't look like sand? Why would people want plastics?
difference between getting your army now or wait 2-3 months until it is printed
as even GW would not be able to set up a printer for each order coming in, so people would have to wait until their unit is done
not talking about that much more people need to work on the factory to maintain those things, increasing the costs and in addition to waiting time there would be a higher price too
so why would people want to have cheap plastic now, when they can wait months for their more expensive 3D printed unit
How many of those people that buy the not so cheap plastic from GW now have everything assembled and painted in 2-3 months? A small fraction would be my guess. I don't even think 75% of the people that play wargames want to paint them.
How many of those people that buy the not so cheap plastic from GW now have everything assembled and painted in 2-3 months? A small fraction would be my guess. I don't even think 75% of the people that play wargames want to paint them.
Remember, GW has done their Made-to-Order items too. Those were normally 6 week waits, or it was when I ordered them. It's been a while since I've seen one offered, but I would chalk that up more to the pandemic. People are willing to wait for stuff if it feels exclusive or limited. The exact type of stuff that GW pushes.
How much would a 3d printed and 3d painted squad that takes an hour to manufacture (we're beign super optimistic here) cost, when you know what GW charges for a sprue that takes 1.5 seconds to cast?
I can see GW offering a $100 3d-printed-commander-with-your-face-on-it, and with great success, but armies, no way. We'll have holograms before we have printing that efficient.
I think the impact is more severely felt for the niche-scale producers, 6mm - 15mm scifi and fantasy. Especially true if you are in the business of making GW-esque proxies.
Just looking at the active Facebook groups and Discord groups for Epic and Warmaster, the vast majority of the painted pics being shared are for either home or contract-printed miniatures. I think that definitely gives the perception that it is taking a bite out of an already small market.
There are a number of advantages to just running a print farm as opposed to relying on moldmaking and casting services. Timelines, up-front investment (depending on the printers used), etc. For the proxy market, you could also push the envelope a lot closer to the existing IP's than you normally would. If you get a C&D letter, you just tweak the design somewhat and keep printing, rather than having to junk molds etc,
lord_blackfang wrote: How much would a 3d printed and 3d painted squad that takes an hour to manufacture (we're beign super optimistic here) cost, when you know what GW charges for a sprue that takes 1.5 seconds to cast?
I can see GW offering a $100 3d-printed-commander-with-your-face-on-it, and with great success, but armies, no way. We'll have holograms before we have printing that efficient.
Don't know. But I have seen people, on this very forum spend $5000 USD just to have someone else paint their army. GW sells you that with a monthly payment plan and you just get it.
As for speed. Well, there are commercial ones that make ours look stupid slow.
Overread wrote: This is something where GW has a very clear edge over many of the competition; especially so when its all in-house and easy to communicate (those dealing with factories in China have not just a language barrier, but also vast distances and all the rest to contend with).
The biggest advantage GW has here, and the greatest obstacle that everyone else has to contend with, is that at GW the people sculpting and designing the miniatures can work side by side with the people engineering the molds and can ensure that the output of the production process is not only going to look good but be relatively easy to assemble and robust enough to stand up to regular gaming. When dealing with China, that level of interaction and oversight does not exist and the ability to go back and forth with the sculptors to make adjustments and changes in order to ease reproducability, etc. is not an option. Thats how you end up with things like Wyrds malifaux minis where a models face ends up being a separate piece from the rest of its head, and all the frustrations that come with that - at GW that same sculpt could be adjusted slightly to prevent the need for that and allow it to be cast in a single piece with the same (or better) fidelity and detail. Beyond that, GWs sculptors work so closely with the mold engineers that they generally have a good understanding of production and design limitations that they may need to work around and sculpt with these things in mind from the get-go to ensure that the amount of rework needed to accommodate the mold engineering process is as minimal as possible. Companies like Wyrd, Kingdom Death, and others obviously don't have that benefit, not just because the sculptors there have zero interaction with the toolmakers but also because in many cases the sculptors are freelancers and contract employees who are getting paid to deliver 3D files that look good and match up as closely as possible with concept art designed and posed by 2D artists and as a result don't even necessarily have terms like "reproducability" or "manufacturability" or "ease of assembly" in their vocabulary because thats not even a consideration to them insofar as their ability to get paid for the work.
Don't know. But I have seen people, on this very forum spend $5000 USD just to have someone else paint their army. GW sells you that with a monthly payment plan and you just get it.
As for speed. Well, there are commercial ones that make ours look stupid slow.
Only a few minutes for a 32mm figure. And that printer is over 4 years old.
Carbons printers (and the handful of other similar technologies out there) have lower accuracy/resolution than the average Anycubic, Elegoo, or Phrozen resin printer (I've looked into them for business needs in the past). They aren't quite as fast as you're being led to believe either, the prints in those videos are sped up rather than real time - like the red molecular structure print at the start of the video is actually sped up about 7x faster than reality. They also don't sell you the printer, you have to essentially lease it to the tune of $40k per year plus a first-time setup and installation cost of ~$25k. That of course is in addition to the cost of the resin and materials themselves. Theres a number of other things if you look under the hood that basically disqualify them (at least for now) from being useful to anyone other than a fortune 500 company manufacturing highly priced low-detail luxury goods in limited quantities. For the most part this isn't expected to improve as there are mathematical and phsyical limitations inherent to the technology that they are using to achieve these results that prevent them from being scaled significantly further. Thats not to say that there won't be breakthroughs in 3d printing that make mass-manufacturing with them more accessible and more possible, just that those printers are still much farther down the R&D pipeline than any of us would probably like them to be.
One huge improvement I can see happening is a rigid material to replace FEP and basically allow any size of build plate an do away with all faffing about with the vat.
lord_blackfang wrote: How much would a 3d printed and 3d painted squad that takes an hour to manufacture (we're beign super optimistic here) cost, when you know what GW charges for a sprue that takes 1.5 seconds to cast?
I can see GW offering a $100 3d-printed-commander-with-your-face-on-it, and with great success, but armies, no way. We'll have holograms before we have printing that efficient.
Not saying they're going to replace HIPS products with 3D printed stuff, but we could see them replace their resin cast products with 3D prints. AT and Necromunda both have resin products via Forgeworld even though they started with HIPS products. GW could turn to doing this for items where they don't see the demand for cutting a mold for HIPS.
Kingdom Death has already moved it's resin products to 3D prints.
Kingdom Death has already moved it's resin products to 3D prints.
Thats not entirely accurate. They only completely switched to photoresins for certain sculpts/product lines, others they use the photoresin for a limited run and do traditional resin for the main run (or vice versa, forget which way it was).
Not saying they're going to replace HIPS products with 3D printed stuff, but we could see them replace their resin cast products with 3D prints. AT and Necromunda both have resin products via Forgeworld even though they started with HIPS products. GW could turn to doing this for items where they don't see the demand for cutting a mold for HIPS.
They might. I wouldn't be surprised if printing is already faster than spin casting for small runs.
thedespot29 wrote: I think the impact is more severely felt for the niche-scale producers, 6mm - 15mm scifi and fantasy. Especially true if you are in the business of making GW-esque proxies.
Just looking at the active Facebook groups and Discord groups for Epic and Warmaster, the vast majority of the painted pics being shared are for either home or contract-printed miniatures. I think that definitely gives the perception that it is taking a bite out of an already small market.
There are a number of advantages to just running a print farm as opposed to relying on moldmaking and casting services. Timelines, up-front investment (depending on the printers used), etc. For the proxy market, you could also push the envelope a lot closer to the existing IP's than you normally would. If you get a C&D letter, you just tweak the design somewhat and keep printing, rather than having to junk molds etc,
That's a very good point you're making. For me it's more reason to convince Vanguard Miniatures to expand beyond proxies, but yeah...it's a tricky thing. The clients basically want Epic back, companies such as Vanguard Miniatures, Onslaught Miniatures, and others cater to that need. But they kinda become redundant as soon as people can print whatever they want (and those are then exact copies of GW designs, not stuff inspired by it). I do wonder what will happen if GW does finally decide to bring back Epic.
I know that some indie companies tend to get an existential crisis every time someone opens up a kickass 3D printing service, but I sometimes wonder how big the threat would be. The problem I think, as you also describe, is the niche we operate in. 28mm scaled indie companies are doing just fine, there doesn't seem to be that much existential fear for 3D printing peeps, at least not at the levels I see when dealing with companies who make fleetscale or 6mm stuf.
On a personal level- 3D printing is still hassle enough that not everyone can or wants to do it (or indeed has the space, especially in a flat). Once it becomes as easy as ink/laser printing, it will almost certainly shift.
From business perspective, it might spell the end of tiny, one-man businesses that stay afloat by the skin of their teeth at best of times, because yes, if I can buy an STL file and print off 20 models for a game easily, why would I wait weeks to get the toys delivered from some shed in Shropshire?
Like with so many things, it'll probably see people pivot, with those companies replaced by enthusiasts supported by patreon or just treating model-making as a hobby that pays for itself.
Yeah, on one hand I can have my own, custom Titanomachina minis printed but then I have to painstakingly remove the supports that were added, and then other post-printing prep-work before the parts will fit as intended, or I can put together a GW plastic kit that is easily snipped off the sprue and goes together like a dream.
Nurglitch wrote: Yeah, on one hand I can have my own, custom Titanomachina minis printed but then I have to painstakingly remove the supports that were added, and then other post-printing prep-work before the parts will fit as intended, or I can put together a GW plastic kit that is easily snipped off the sprue and goes together like a dream.
Personal experiences may vary
In my case, the more GW cuts up their minis, the more bored I get when trying to glue them together, just so that they can make a bespoke, dynamic miniature of which I usually need another five in the army, whereas most of my prints are single part and supports go away with hot water and a slight pull.
Lets just say that, for me, post processing printed minis have so far been much, much less of a hassle than putting together current GW sprues.
Then again, I don't really feel that plastic minis and 3d printed ones are comparable nowadays, unlike with resin casted ones.
Nurglitch wrote: Yeah, on one hand I can have my own, custom Titanomachina minis printed but then I have to painstakingly remove the supports that were added, and then other post-printing prep-work before the parts will fit as intended, or I can put together a GW plastic kit that is easily snipped off the sprue and goes together like a dream.
Personal experiences may vary
In my case, the more GW cuts up their minis, the more bored I get when trying to glue them together, just so that they can make a bespoke, dynamic miniature of which I usually need another five in the army, whereas most of my prints are single part and supports go away with hot water and a slight pull.
Yeah, I've noticed that removing the supports before curing makes life so much easier. I've been having issues making sure that hexagonal plugs fit hexagonal sockets that doesn't make them burdensome to play with, but I still envy the production value of the GW plastics even if I'm not interested in the miniatures or their associated games anymore. Not that GW hasn't had their mistakes; the multi-laser on the Sentinel kit, for example. Maybe I need to talk to my printer-guy. Thing is though he's an award-winning C&C tech, so I'm inclined to defer to his work rather than argue.
Nurglitch wrote: Yeah, on one hand I can have my own, custom Titanomachina minis printed but then I have to painstakingly remove the supports that were added, and then other post-printing prep-work before the parts will fit as intended, or I can put together a GW plastic kit that is easily snipped off the sprue and goes together like a dream.
Personal experiences may vary
In my case, the more GW cuts up their minis, the more bored I get when trying to glue them together, just so that they can make a bespoke, dynamic miniature of which I usually need another five in the army, whereas most of my prints are single part and supports go away with hot water and a slight pull.
Yeah, I've noticed that removing the supports before curing makes life so much easier. I've been having issues making sure that hexagonal plugs fit hexagonal sockets that doesn't make them burdensome to play with, but I still envy the production value of the GW plastics even if I'm not interested in the miniatures or their associated games anymore. Not that GW hasn't had their mistakes; the multi-laser on the Sentinel kit, for example.
It's more a case of personal nitpicks, I think: I got fed up with multi parts with RRT, and nowadays the bigger the number of parts, particularly for small minis, the more annoyed I get, even though the final result might be cool.
Nurglitch wrote: Yeah, on one hand I can have my own, custom Titanomachina minis printed but then I have to painstakingly remove the supports that were added, and then other post-printing prep-work before the parts will fit as intended, or I can put together a GW plastic kit that is easily snipped off the sprue and goes together like a dream.
This kind of highlights the real barrier with current 3d printing is that it falls in the 'not easy' category in the triad of "Good/Cheap/Easy"
At this point, I've got my support settings dialed in to the point where removing them is anything but 'painstaking' - almost all of my supports instantly snap off with no marks at all when I give the model a good twist. The rest are usually supports that I've accidentally put at too steep of an angle that end up stuck to the sculpt, I snip those off post-wash. But that did take a lot of research, trial and error, and tweaking...as well as actually learning that I could get away with them being that thin!
Plus even pre-supported models don't always work in every machine, even if you ignore that there are clearly some who just click auto-support and then add a few through to those who custom every single support and make certain something prints.
Even on the same machine a variation in resin and settings might well mean one set of supports works and another fails.
It's complex and when you wait hours to get a print out of the machine and it fails it doesn't feel as nice as when you open a plastic box from the store and all the bits are already there and work (by and large yes there are errors, but they are far fewer in general).
Right now 3D printing is its own hobby within a hobby
There's also some designers who are clearly aware of how to design for 3D printing and those who don't. Some make some really nice models that are just a nightmare to actually support; whilst others realise that supports are part of the game and both design the core and slice it so that the model has nice natural areas to offer for supports without you having to battle with fine supports in high detail areas.
once saw an interview with a 3d sculpter and he said that it is essential for a good model that he know before he makes the how and with which material it will be cast
so just making a 3d render without ever thinking of how it will be cast won't result in good models
kodos wrote: once saw an interview with a 3d sculpter and he said that it is essential for a good model that he know before he makes the how and with which material it will be cast
so just making a 3d render without ever thinking of how it will be cast won't result in good models
Some people at both sides of the customer-creator divide seem not to realize that fact.
For people with extensive 3d printing experience: what is the logical argument that leads to the conclusion that "3d printing will make 'traditional' miniature making process obsolete"? Aside from rapid prototypes, I simply don't see how 3d printing can become more economical than 'traditional' production. 3d printing is simply a means to produce products that can't be produced via other means (i.e. CNC). The way I see it, 3d printing is more versatile version of vacuum forming without the need to set up your negatives to form the positive.
For people with minimal 3d printing experience: 3d prints are 3d prints, and injection molding plas-kit is injection mold-plas kit. Unless it actually becomes more economical to "print" a sprue, the two will coexist.
If anything, when it comes down to GW, the most plausible shift they can afford may be that they will have 'base' injection mold kits supplemented by small scale production of upgrade kits that may be 3d printed.
skchsan wrote: For people with extensive 3d printing experience: what is the logical argument that leads to the conclusion that "3d printing will make 'traditional' miniature making process obsolete"? Aside from rapid prototypes, I simply don't see how 3d printing can become more economical than 'traditional' production.
The thing is whilst the machine itself isn't cheap, once you get going and can print reliably well the cost of material to keep it running is much less than the price to buy brand new models. In addition the cost of most 3D model files is also much less than a regular model and you can make as many as you want.
So what people "want" to see or hope to see is the market shift and for even big firms like GW to suddenly start supplying home printing files to print your army. The justification being that you do the production and get cheaper models. More models - less cost - happier gamers.
However I don't see that happening any time soon. As I've noted above right now the market works for the few doing it partly because there are fewer doing it and because its basically teams of 1 or a few designers. So low costs work for sales because its not supporting many at once. A firm like GW couldn't easily survive on such a model and would have to likely downsize like crazy or shift the entire business into production and supply of 3D printers and accessories/supplies.
Basically people want cheaper models and see 3D printing as a means to that end.
skchsan wrote: For people with extensive 3d printing experience: what is the logical argument that leads to the conclusion that "3d printing will make 'traditional' miniature making process obsolete"? Aside from rapid prototypes, I simply don't see how 3d printing can become more economical than 'traditional' production.
For people with minimal 3d printing experience: 3d prints are 3d prints, and injection molding plas-kit is injection mold-plas kit. Unless it actually becomes more economical to "print" a sprue, the two will coexist.
If anything, when it comes down to GW, I think they will have 'base' injection mold kits supplemented by small scale production of upgrade kits that may be 3d printed.
Comparing 3d printing production to plastic injection is a loss. 3d printing will never be as economical at scale as plastic injection. Now, comparing to resin casting, it's a lot closer when you compare cost per model in materials, and even the other surrounding costs (labor; molds for resin casting vs. FEP sheets, etc.) are pretty similar. Yes, it takes 3-4 hours to print a full build plate, but that full build plate might hold 6 or more models depending on scale (only height of the overall build impacts time), and hand-casting in resin, moving to a vacuum chamber, demoulding, cleaning and preparing mould for next cast, etc., comes in fairly close to that time as well (perhaps even longer?). Also, with resin casting, you will have to make new molds periodically, since each one is really only good for 30-50 pulls depending (less if it's a more intricate model).
It's not quite as close when comparing 3d printing to metal spin casting, since you typically can do more runs of metal in bigger molds that last longer. But, the price of tin, which is one of the main ingredients in most white metal casts, historically can fluctuate pretty bad, which means margins likewise fluctuate. Easier to predict and control even resin casting in comparison (which is part of why many smaller companies go with resin casting, plus slightly less expensive equipment required).
So, if 3d print production vs. resin casting production are fairly close right now (resin casting might be slightly more economical at the moment, but not by much), then as 3d printing tech improves and resin costs come down, there will be a point where 3d print production is flat out more economical than resin casting, for low to medium volume (100 pcs or so a month, say). If you need 1000s of models per month produced, then you will probably want to invest in injection molding, which has a very high start up cost (steel mold making is not cheap), but then the price per part in materials and even labor is a fraction of either resin, metal, or 3d printing.
And note, I'm not talking about people occasionally printing some files on their own instead of buying physical products. I am looking at the production of physical products for sale here, and I do think that smaller companies may start shifting to direct 3d printing over resin casting eventually. Not all of them, to be sure, but it is becoming a completely viable option.
There's already a couple print-only companies including a loot crate type thing with a dozen minis a month. Last I saw the person had 8 Marses and went through 3 print runs a day which is probably already better than what a single person can handle with spin casting.
lord_blackfang wrote: There's already a couple print-only companies including a loot crate type thing with a dozen minis a month. Last I saw the person had 8 Marses and went through 3 print runs a day which is probably already better than what a single person can handle with spin casting.
There's definitely that, too. Once you start a print, you can go do something else. Including go to bed and check on it in the morning. Not something you can do with resin casting or metal spin casting.
lord_blackfang wrote: There's already a couple print-only companies including a loot crate type thing with a dozen minis a month. Last I saw the person had 8 Marses and went through 3 print runs a day which is probably already better than what a single person can handle with spin casting.
There's definitely that, too. Once you start a print, you can go do something else. Including go to bed and check on it in the morning. Not something you can do with resin casting or metal spin casting.
Wait you're saying there comes a point where you can leave the printer printing and not come back every half hour to make sure its still printing?
Overread wrote: Wait you're saying there comes a point where you can leave the printer printing and not come back every half hour to make sure its still printing?
With my resin I have no choice, it's in a timeshare workshop and I go home while it's printing.
With my FDM I just trust it enough to hit print and leave the room for 18 hours. Tho I admit I often peek just to gloat.
Yes, and I can trust my molds enough to pour resin in it and leave the room for 4 hours.
All I'm trying to imply is 3d printing and 'traditional' miniature making are simply two sides of the same coin. They'll have their pro's and con's, and before any groundbreaking breakthrough in 3d printing technology emerges (i.e. it can take a 2d photo of an object, translate it to 3d model and can replicate it with 99.99% accuracy) they will continue to be two sides of the same coin.
lord_blackfang wrote: There's already a couple print-only companies including a loot crate type thing with a dozen minis a month. Last I saw the person had 8 Marses and went through 3 print runs a day which is probably already better than what a single person can handle with spin casting.
There's definitely that, too. Once you start a print, you can go do something else. Including go to bed and check on it in the morning. Not something you can do with resin casting or metal spin casting.
Wait you're saying there comes a point where you can leave the printer printing and not come back every half hour to make sure its still printing?
Haha, yes. It takes a few tries getting used to it, since I know when I first got mine, too, I sat there and watched it far more intently than needed. Once a little of the "ooh, shiny new toy, COOOL" wears off, yeah, you can start it then wander off.
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skchsan wrote: Yes, and I can trust my molds enough to pour resin in it and leave the room for 4 hours.
All I'm trying to imply is 3d printing and 'traditional' miniature making are simply two sides of the same coin. They'll have their pro's and con's, and before any groundbreaking breakthrough in 3d printing technology emerges (i.e. it can take a 2d photo of an object, translate it to 3d model and can replicate it with 99.99% accuracy) they will continue to be two sides of the same coin.
I don't think such a groundbreaking tech change is necessarily required, but I do agree that they're more or less different sides of the same coin. But your earlier comment was implying that 3d printing as production was "only suitable for prototypes" and not production. I don't think this is the case currently, nor do I think it will be the case as things progress in the technology and resin/printer costs come down a bit more, even. Will it 100% supplant resin casting? Extremely unlikely, since I'm sure some shops won't want to make that shift. Will it be as economical as resin casting? I posit that it already is.
No, I was implying that there is certain advantages to be had when you mix the two production methods together, and that such route is the best way to maximize the value of your 3d printer in a medium-to-large scale production line.
The maintenance bill for 3d print shop, even for medium scale, is nothing to scoff at.
Oh and don't forget about Murphy's law. When one machine goes down, all the other machines seems to always follow suit until there's one working machine remaining.
skchsan wrote: No, I was implying that there is certain advantages to be had when you mix the two production methods together, and that such route is the best way to maximize the value of your 3d printer in a medium-to-large scale production line.
Ok... that's not how I read this:
skchsan wrote: Aside from rapid prototypes, I simply don't see how 3d printing can become more economical than 'traditional' production. 3d printing is simply a means to produce products that can't be produced via other means (i.e. CNC). The way I see it, 3d printing is more versatile version of vacuum forming without the need to set up your negatives to form the positive.
Apologies if I misread, but that certainly sounded like you were saying that 3d printing as production was not something that could be economically viable, only for production of masters. I provided a counter point to that, based on a lot of research I've done in that area, and experience. But now we're changing goalposts.
The maintenance bill for 3d print shop, even for medium scale, is nothing to scoff at.
Oh and don't forget about Murphy's law. When one machine goes down, all the other machines seems to always follow suit until there's one working machine remaining.
And silicone molds will all fail at the same time, and so will all your vacuum chambers.
If you don't want to jump into any 3d printing as production, that's totally fine; nobody is making you. At this point, though, it sounds to me like you're just trying to find more excuses to try to back up your thought that it will never be equal to resin casting for the same level of production runs, in terms of economy (cost, labor, time, etc.?).
skchsan wrote: No, I was implying that there is certain advantages to be had when you mix the two production methods together, and that such route is the best way to maximize the value of your 3d printer in a medium-to-large scale production line.
Ok... that's not how I read this:
skchsan wrote: Aside from rapid prototypes, I simply don't see how 3d printing can become more economical than 'traditional' production. 3d printing is simply a means to produce products that can't be produced via other means (i.e. CNC). The way I see it, 3d printing is more versatile version of vacuum forming without the need to set up your negatives to form the positive.
Apologies if I misread, but that certainly sounded like you were saying that 3d printing as production was not something that could be economically viable, only for production of masters. I provided a counter point to that, based on a lot of research I've done in that area, and experience. But now we're changing goalposts.
The maintenance bill for 3d print shop, even for medium scale, is nothing to scoff at.
Oh and don't forget about Murphy's law. When one machine goes down, all the other machines seems to always follow suit until there's one working machine remaining.
And silicone molds will all fail at the same time, and so will all your vacuum chambers.
If you don't want to jump into any 3d printing as production, that's totally fine; nobody is making you. At this point, though, it sounds to me like you're just trying to find more excuses to try to back up your thought that it will never be equal to resin casting for the same level of production runs, in terms of economy (cost, labor, time, etc.?).
Quite the contrary. I believe 3d printing should be embraced as a technology that augments the existing workflow, rather than outright replacing it.
Perhaps I wasnt being specific enough: the question was "why must 3d printing need to completely replace traditional method in order to be more profitable in your opinion?"
I think 3D printing has a place and can be economical under certain circumstances. I don't think anyone is going to get as big as GW using 3D printing as their primary manufacturing method, but perhaps a company of Privateer Press or Mantics size would be able to leverage it within the next decade as a preferred manufacturing methodology, assuming the costs and production times intersect with product demand correctly.
I think the real "near term" value of 3D printing to this industry isn't 3D printing models, but rather 3D printing molds - once that production process becomes viable and economical, the costs of injection molded plastics are going to plummet. At that point, whether or not 3d printing can ever compete with injection molding basically becomes irrelevant.
There is also the matter of logistics: the current methods of production tend to produce stuff from a single place and then ship it wherever, but with the rising costs and uncertainties of international shipping that way seems to be problematic.
With 3d printing, you can outsource production to local partners, do away with production altogether and have it done by the client or simply produce "locally" yourself in a way that seems quite a bit easier and faster than any tradicional method. It would be similar to current PoD of books, and consequently it would also cut significantly on warehousing costs.
When you said that a company can't became big as GW already nlt by printing, remember that videogame companies are the most profitable in the world (with social media) and neither produce anything physical.
This idea that there is some sort of intrinsic value to physically produced items is, basically, wrong. It's not the 3d printing, it's the world going in that direction.
Albertorius wrote:There is also the matter of logistics: the current methods of production tend to produce stuff from a single place and then ship it wherever, but with the rising costs and uncertainties of international shipping that way seems to be problematic.
With 3d printing, you can outsource production to local partners, do away with production altogether and have it done by the client or simply produce "locally" yourself in a way that seems quite a bit easier and faster than any tradicional method. It would be similar to current PoD of books, and consequently it would also cut significantly on warehousing costs.
True, but the more you outsource the greater your support costs are going to be. So sure you don't have to produce and then ship from one site, but at the same time you now have less direct control over manufacture and quality control. Wargamers and model makers are some of the most fussy customers who really will spot tiny defects in the model. If you're going international and having regional producers then that can also throw up a whole host of other issues. It could be similar to companies that have issues with overseas factories, only now you're dealing with dozens of small local producers.
Cybtroll wrote:When you said that a company can't became big as GW already nlt by printing, remember that videogame companies are the most profitable in the world (with social media) and neither produce anything physical.
This idea that there is some sort of intrinsic value to physically produced items is, basically, wrong. It's not the 3d printing, it's the world going in that direction.
True but part of the reason video games have become more and more profitable and been able to invest more and more is because their market grew phenomenally. As much as GW's market has grown over the last years, its nothing compared to something like CoD. And that's just one video game brand. Plus its important to note that the video game industry is very volatile. Many firms, even if they release successful games, can often fold, collapse or merge/get bought out by others. Heck its how EA built itself up; regular reliable annual sports game licences and releases gave them a firm foundation of guaranteed profit each year and whilst firms around them wobbled, EA swooped in and bought them up.
The other issue is that each year you can release a new sports game or a new RTS game or such and its an entirely new product that customers want. Wargamers are not the same. Whilst many will upgrade to new sculpts, you can't double tap them every year or even every other year. Eventually you just can't sell the same wargamer another alternative marine sculpt. They have a finite limit point. Now granted if you could pre-paint those models out of the printer that would increase that limit cap considerably; but you'd still likely hit practical limits for gamers.
Albertorius wrote:There is also the matter of logistics: the current methods of production tend to produce stuff from a single place and then ship it wherever, but with the rising costs and uncertainties of international shipping that way seems to be problematic.
With 3d printing, you can outsource production to local partners, do away with production altogether and have it done by the client or simply produce "locally" yourself in a way that seems quite a bit easier and faster than any tradicional method. It would be similar to current PoD of books, and consequently it would also cut significantly on warehousing costs.
True, but the more you outsource the greater your support costs are going to be. So sure you don't have to produce and then ship from one site, but at the same time you now have less direct control over manufacture and quality control. Wargamers and model makers are some of the most fussy customers who really will spot tiny defects in the model. If you're going international and having regional producers then that can also throw up a whole host of other issues. It could be similar to companies that have issues with overseas factories, only now you're dealing with dozens of small local producers.
It's something that other industries are already dealing with, even in adjacent markets like RPGs (Lulu, DrivethruRPG, etc). But it's also something that works and has been working for more than a decade, now.
You're changing some problems for others, but that's kind of unavoidable either way.
Cybtroll wrote: When you said that a company can't became big as GW already nlt by printing, remember that videogame companies are the most profitable in the world (with social media) and neither produce anything physical.
This idea that there is some sort of intrinsic value to physically produced items is, basically, wrong. It's not the 3d printing, it's the world going in that direction.
You seem to have completely missed the point. Nobody is going to get as big as GW via 3D printing because 3D printing doesn't allow a business to operate at comparable scale. Even a warehouse filled to bursting with the fastest resin 3D printers wouldn't be able to churn out minis as fast as GWs plastic injection molding machines can. GW can (at least in theory) manufacture several hundred thousand kits per week, all the anycubic photons in the world operating in concert couldn't keep up with that.
As for "video game companies are the most profitable in the world" - I don't know where you get your data from but thats abolutely not true. I think you mean that they are the most profitable businesses in the entertainment industry, which is true but is not really the same thing. Anyway, trying to compare the 3d miniatures industry to software/video gaming or any of the various other industries people have tried to parallel it to is an inept comparison and shows a failure to understand how any of these industries actually operate or function, how these business models generate value, or what their products actually are.
You got it, chaos... for the foreseeable future, these are two totally differing production methods based on two different markets.
Traditional plastic kits in massive volumes can offset the high start up costs of steel molds and such, but do not allow smaller runs or unique items that may not sell thousands. Where 3D excels in quick design to production and in smaller runs - a niche that has to have been filled by silicone/metal/resin methods, which are frankly, not as reliable and cost effective as 3D printing has become lately.
It will take a revolution in printing mechanics to ever come close to chipping at the traditional plastic model piece of the pie; however, with the advent of mono and higher resolution screens, it is getting closer than ever before. But, for now, 3D still better fills the small niche void, IMHO.
The thought of distributed production partners is definitely something that's an interesting thing to consider with 3d print production. Yes, there's the QC issues and so on, but that's there with any kind of partnership. It kind of makes me wonder why there isn't more such "casting partnerships" with resin or metal casting. I'm sure there are some, but it feels like the 3d printing partner idea might actually have lower friction to kicking off somewhere. If you could find partners in various locales, you could quickly reduce import/export taxes, since things would be made in the same, or much nearer, countries. The hardest challenge there, of course, is finding reliable partners and some degree of overall Quality Control, but it's an interesting idea.
I think one of the next big jumps will be 8k resolution screens on larger printers, enabling them to get the x-y resolution that machines like the Sonic Mini 4K have. That will be a couple years, I think, before the screens are at a price point that makes them viable, but if you could get the SM4K resolution on a Saturn sized build plate, the volume you'd kick out would literally quadruple.
I'd love a larger 8K resolution screen! Of course the clash is that once you've got larger 8K screens you'll have smaller 8K screens too for even more detail!
That said I suspect that there are several reasons we don't see more distributed production
1) Postage isn't that much. Barring the last year the postal systems are pretty speedy within most countries now. Even international is pretty darn fast
2) It's likely much cheaper to keep postage as a running cost that trickles out money and then, perhaps, a simple low skill (low wages) warehouse in one or two key major international distribution centres.
3) The logistics of ensuring staff have similar machines (or the same) and moulds and access to fresh moulds (which might have to come from head-office because that's where hte masters are kept). This all might cause production delays at the local sites.
4) It might be a growth thing in that smaller firms don't need it whilst medium ones can't afford it even if they'd like it and big ones are invested into other systems entirely. So its a gap because it doesn't practically work for any of the currently established different groups.
In the end I think we are seeing with 3D, but its not so much a case of logistics and more production scale. The designers making models simply don't have investment nor desire to make and build a huge factory setup. They are designers who design. So they outsource production to various separate parties who than handle production. Though thus far there's no real display of networking. It could well be that all you licence holders for a patreon end up in the same country or region and thus whilst you might have many on the books; the global and regional impact is small
Overread wrote: 1) Postage isn't that much. Barring the last year the postal systems are pretty speedy within most countries now. Even international is pretty darn fast
Vehemently disagree. Shipping charges (not to mention customs fees and "handling" surcharges) have been outrageous from anywhere not in the EU or China to here (within the EU) for years now. Now UK has joined the club, and on the last DrivethruRPG order (originating from the UK) UPS wanted to charge me 45 euros for a 30 euros book.
Shipping time is not the issue. Shipping costs and taxes are.
Aye but that sounds like you're importing as opposed to them going through a local warehouse/distribution centre/store in your country. As I said internally most countries are pretty affordable and between countries there are ways of lowering some costs by doing bulk shipments and having local distribution hubs. Again this might be simpler and easier and cheaper to setup than setting up an entirely new company or licencing out to a local firm for production.
Cybtroll wrote: When you said that a company can't became big as GW already nlt by printing, remember that videogame companies are the most profitable in the world (with social media) and neither produce anything physical.
This idea that there is some sort of intrinsic value to physically produced items is, basically, wrong. It's not the 3d printing, it's the world going in that direction.
I think if a company is going to get as big as GW it's going to have to pursue a similar word-of-mouth marketing and slow, gradual development rather than trying to grow to that size overnight (or even less than a decade).
Overread wrote: Aye but that sounds like you're importing as opposed to them going through a local warehouse/distribution centre/store in your country. As I said internally most countries are pretty affordable and between countries there are ways of lowering some costs by doing bulk shipments and having local distribution hubs. Again this might be simpler and easier and cheaper to setup than setting up an entirely new company or licencing out to a local firm for production.
In the near future, if not already, I can see it being an option for terrain companies. Other than the persons who want to pay for injection mold precision smoothed parts or flat-pack card/mdf, most FDM options are becoming "good enough" for the general market. Particularly if people are already content to use popsickle stick birdhouse buildings and painted cans, print lines aren't too inconvenient (and can be worked into the meshes if one knows how). Some meshes can be scaled to different game sizes, there's some interesting options I've seen where people make cobblestone texture rollers doing continuous pattern roads with traditional media. Depending on what material is used it's possible to make a negative from files and create molds for rocks like those sold in hobby railroad stores or similar to hirst-arts stuff (which prob isn't great for them unless they're doing that already).
PondaNagura wrote: In the near future, if not already, I can see it being an option for terrain companies. Other than the persons who want to pay for injection mold precision smoothed parts or flat-pack card/mdf, most FDM options are becoming "good enough" for the general market. Particularly if people are already content to use popsickle stick birdhouse buildings and painted cans, print lines aren't too inconvenient (and can be worked into the meshes if one knows how). Some meshes can be scaled to different game sizes, there's some interesting options I've seen where people make cobblestone texture rollers doing continuous pattern roads with traditional media. Depending on what material is used it's possible to make a negative from files and create molds for rocks like those sold in hobby railroad stores or similar to hirst-arts stuff (which prob isn't great for them unless they're doing that already).
I can think of a few different patreon's which have that sort of business model. And a couple of sites likewise. Sadly never gotten around to testing them myself but they seem decent enough.
To put in my two cents on the original topic. Most likely yes there will be that point where a midlevel 3d printer can give you a high quality output at a decent speed. Comparing it to regular printing. At one point they were slow, chunky and loud with a terrible resolution and no colour. Now you can print out photos with decent results from many of them. I'd imagine the old style store where you take in your film or disposable cameras to have it developed would be seeing a decrease in business. If they're still around at all.
And we're already seeing people working on 3D scanning tech from various methods.
There will always be a place for making something with your hands rather than manipulating a digital file and printing it. However, as younger people grow up with a new technology it will eventually become the norm while the older alternative becomes niche.
On the other hand, buying a pre-manufactured item is easier and usually situationally faster than printing it yourself.
How many people buy bread even though you can get a bread machine to make it for you at home? How many people make bread by hand? Most people buy the pre-made bread because it is easier and faster and cheaper.
Pretty much. I think it'll be even more popular in areas that have to pay a premium for... some reason? The cost of a box of marines is much more in AUS than in USA even with exchange rates factored in. I'm sure there are reasons but it's still kinda meh. Especially considering wages just aren't going up these days.
Another thing I've been kinda noticing, especially when it comes to 6mm and fleetscale stuff is that since people 3D print their entire armies, kitbashing has kinda (more or less) gone extinct.
Yes, some (like me) do it digitally, so combining STL files to turn them into something new. But I'm more referring to old school kitbashing / scratchbuilding.
I wonder why that is though, does it also have to do with the printed material itself? The impression I get from it is that it doesn't really allow for easy cutting and combining with other bits. Does anyone of you here have experiences with that?
Both PLA and resin are both a total pain to cut. That probably accounts for most of it. In my experience the main reasons to convert are to get new poses, weapon swaps and head swaps. These are much easier to do in the 3d programme before printing.
I'm in agreement that 3D printing your models is still a small-time thing, and will take a long while to reach fully into the mainstream. Larger companies like Modipheus are dipping their toes into the water as a way to deliver models and terrain for game systems where it probably would not be very economical to dedicated the molds to making them. However it will take a long time before it starts affecting the bottom line of a major company like Games Workshop or Warlord.
I think it is more likely that 3D printed terrain will possibly be the area that impacts on the larger companies first, especially for games like Flames of War and Bolt Action where historic buildings are just as easy to design for a 3D printer as it is for a resin cast.
Flinty wrote: Both PLA and resin are both a total pain to cut. That probably accounts for most of it. In my experience the main reasons to convert are to get new poses, weapon swaps and head swaps. These are much easier to do in the 3d programme before printing.
Hence the disappearance of physical kitbashing / scratchbuilding. There are of course the usual head swaps and such, but I'm talking about the more elaborate conversions, especially when looking at stuff like GorkaMorka / Necromunda or more narrative driven stuff. Think of INQ28/INQ6/Blanchitsu. I've noticed that in that community 3D printing is still very...well....not that omnipresent as it is in the Epic/BFG communities.
kitbashing became really a thing with HIPS while with metal or PU before that everything but a simple swap was only for the very advanced builders
and the need for it comes from the original model kit not having the stuff you want
now being more dynamic with most weapin options available, there is also no need to kitbash outside of doing a specific theme were a simple swap of parts is enough
and with 3D printing, why doing hard work with adjusting the model if you can just print it right in the first place if you change the file
and this is the main point of 3d printing in the first place, that you can print the stuff you want/need instead of needing to work with the models someone else has made that are not the way you want them (but are the only ones available that come close)
I don't think 3D printing killed kitbashing, I think what killed it is what birthed it in a way - GW. GW's old metal era let them cast parts and sell them individually. When that mostly ended 3rd party firms took up the slack ordering kits from GW trade and splitting the parts - bitz shops.
Then someone at GW decided they didn't want bitz shops to exist so they ceased trade to them. I would warrant it might be that they were concerned people would buy 1 box and then parts from a bitz shop rather than another box so that they could get alternate builds from two or three in one kits. Or it might have been other things.
Basically it cut down a huge affordable supply of plastic parts for gamers. The shift to "no models no rules" also removed mandatory kit bashing to get certain models, so kit bashing became less affordable and also less necessary.
That said I think its still a thing, its just important to realise that it was never the major thing, it was always more of a niche within the hobby. Which is why its good that no-model-no-rules was adopted as it allowed casual players access to the same models without having to use counts as or kit bash (not everyone wants too learn how to do it).
3D printing does mean that you can certainly take 1 model and edit it to a different pose; though I'd argue that it still takes time and skill its just a different time and skill set to get a good result. Future resins might also make it easier to chop and change parts, though, again, people might just find it easier to chop in the computer and print what's needed.
Still the basic skills remain, even from 3D printers you can get parts that don't align perfectly - you can see this with people printing big dragons on smaller build plates
Albertorius wrote: Well, up to a point it stands to reason: Epic/BFG don't have hundreds of ready available plastic sprues from which snag parts for conversions.
I would guess many people feel it's much easier to work with hips for converting stuff instead of trying to use cured UV resin.
And they probably are right.
Hmm, I'm not fully sure about that. Whilst rare, there is still some very interesting kitbashing going on in Epic/BFG, to give you some quick examples: numero uno, and number two to just give you some ideas.
So it's still out there. Whilst some have the skills to edit / design their own models, there are many who don't have the 3D skills or access to a 3D printer (even printing itself is a hobby of its own), so there is still space for traditional kitbashing. I feel that 3D printed bits could really help out here.
My opinion is that home 3d printing won't replace traditional manufacturing (whether resin, metal, or plastic) in tabletop gaming until nontoxic washable automatic resin supports are a standard part of 3d printing software for affordable printers. It'll be a viable alternative though once actually capable nondeforming auto supports that come off easily by hand are the norm but traditional minis will still have their majority stake in the industry. The key is to be as easy to put on the table as opening a blister and gluing a few pieces for the average human sized figure.
Albertorius wrote: Well, up to a point it stands to reason: Epic/BFG don't have hundreds of ready available plastic sprues from which snag parts for conversions.
I would guess many people feel it's much easier to work with hips for converting stuff instead of trying to use cured UV resin.
And they probably are right.
Hmm, I'm not fully sure about that. Whilst rare, there is still some very interesting kitbashing going on in Epic/BFG, to give you some quick examples: numero uno, and number two to just give you some ideas.
So it's still out there. Whilst some have the skills to edit / design their own models, there are many who don't have the 3D skills or access to a 3D printer (even printing itself is a hobby of its own), so there is still space for traditional kitbashing. I feel that 3D printed bits could really help out here.
#makeINQ6happen!
Of course there still is. What I mean is that it's more prevalent on the "28mm" scene simply because there's more stuff to use.
Albertorius wrote: Well, up to a point it stands to reason: Epic/BFG don't have hundreds of ready available plastic sprues from which snag parts for conversions.
I would guess many people feel it's much easier to work with hips for converting stuff instead of trying to use cured UV resin.
And they probably are right.
Hmm, I'm not fully sure about that. Whilst rare, there is still some very interesting kitbashing going on in Epic/BFG, to give you some quick examples: numero uno, and number two to just give you some ideas.
So it's still out there. Whilst some have the skills to edit / design their own models, there are many who don't have the 3D skills or access to a 3D printer (even printing itself is a hobby of its own), so there is still space for traditional kitbashing. I feel that 3D printed bits could really help out here.
#makeINQ6happen!
Of course there still is. What I mean is that it's more prevalent on the "28mm" scene simply because there's more stuff to use.
Hmm, would it you think be viable if someone would release all sorts of extra bits (be it for vehicles/infantry or terrain), either as (metal, resin, plastic) cast bits or in a print on demand form?
I have one of the best budget PLA printers on the market, (under 700 USD) and you cannot make PLA prints look even close to the detail of the store bought ones, let along get the STLs or Gcodes before GW bans them. GW even bans things that look like their old rogue trader stuff. It's more difficult to find and print even near quality prints than it is to just buy them. If you get into resin printing, it's dangerous, expensive, and requires a lot of planning, space, and time investment. and they still don't look that close.
The only way 3d printing would replace GW is if GW made it legal to download their models and home print them, with pre-supported Gcodes. People are only switching to printing because they feel it MIGHT save money, but after all the upgrades, filament, replacement bits (you WILL break stuff learning this hobby) then you don't even break even, and you get maybe 5-10 ugly kinda ugly minis. No one is printing perfect sculpts of Gman and saving 100 bucks.
3d printing costs almost as much, requires a lot of learning, takes ages to even print one model, and then they look like meh.
Nope, it won't replace it, likely ever. GW has their IP protected and safe.
@Fezzik - i dont agree,.except maybe for the dangerous bit. You can fit a resin printer, and all.required curing gubbins easily on a single desk. The only special.thing needed compared to all the usual space and kit for modelling hobbies is more ventilation, and even then you need good.ventilaton for airbrushing.
Decent resin printers are so cheap now that there is a serious question to whether it's cheaper to buy an army, or to buy a printer and print your own. Yes there is an investment in time to learn how to use the printer effectively, but i dont think its particularly different to learning the right techniques and skills for modelling from plastic kits.
Regarding printed stuff looking meh a quick romp through Albertorius' thread shows the quality you can get to. I havent looked but surely there are Guilliman equivalent .models out there in STL form. In term sof wacky, baroque and hyper detailed models you can get stuff like this free off thingiverse
Malika2 wrote: Hmm, would it you think be viable if someone would release all sorts of extra bits (be it for vehicles/infantry or terrain), either as (metal, resin, plastic) cast bits or in a print on demand form?
Well, speaking for myself I'd rather have it as stls to remix, but as you said above, printing is a hobby now for me.
But yes, it's kind of what Shapeways do. Which means there is a market for that kinda thing.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I have one of the best budget PLA printers on the market, (under 700 USD) and you cannot make PLA prints look even close to the detail of the store bought ones, let along get the STLs or Gcodes before GW bans them. GW even bans things that look like their old rogue trader stuff. It's more difficult to find and print even near quality prints than it is to just buy them. If you get into resin printing, it's dangerous, expensive, and requires a lot of planning, space, and time investment. and they still don't look that close.
The only way 3d printing would replace GW is if GW made it legal to download their models and home print them, with pre-supported Gcodes. People are only switching to printing because they feel it MIGHT save money, but after all the upgrades, filament, replacement bits (you WILL break stuff learning this hobby) then you don't even break even, and you get maybe 5-10 ugly kinda ugly minis. No one is printing perfect sculpts of Gman and saving 100 bucks.
3d printing costs almost as much, requires a lot of learning, takes ages to even print one model, and then they look like meh.
Nope, it won't replace it, likely ever. GW has their IP protected and safe.
I'd welcome your opinions on my 3d printing thread ^^.
Yeah from what I see if you want high quality models you're printing using a resin 3D printer; the PLA I tend to see used more for things like terrain, dice towers and for seriously big models or things like wings on dragons and such - ergo lower detail regions or terrains and such.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: People are only switching to printing because they feel it MIGHT save money, but after all the upgrades, filament, replacement bits (you WILL break stuff learning this hobby) then you don't even break even, and you get maybe 5-10 ugly kinda ugly minis. No one is printing perfect sculpts of Gman and saving 100 bucks.
3d printing costs almost as much, requires a lot of learning, takes ages to even print one model, and then they look like meh.
This three thousand. If you're buying a 3d printer to "save" on hobby dollars, you're in for a rude awakening. It's simply a tool, not a magic box.
It's not about what the machine can do for you, but what you can do with the machine. 3d printers can print miniatures and A WHOLE LOT MORE if you spend the time and effort in learning your way around the machine.
Now air fryers - they're the true magic box of the 21st century.
Mark my word, while it may be some time yet, nearly every industry will be moving to locally printed pieces to improve and lower logistics and supply costs. It is one of the most highly invested areas in many industries.
Example: You need a part for your car (realize, it can be a plastic or metal part) and instead of the auto manufacturer producing and stocking thousands of them all over the country, the local dealer auto parts will print the part you need, when you need it.
Will GW eventually get hit over the head to realize that not only can they sell their plastic kits, but eventually offer their IP protected design files for those that want to print at an even higher price profit margin? Believe me, it will happen. I would estimate within the next 10 years when 8k or 12k resolution resin printers are moderately priced and available to all. GW will still scour and protect their IP as they do today, just a little differently.
Change is happening Dakka friends!! Just not by tomorrow!
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I have one of the best budget PLA printers on the market, (under 700 USD) and you cannot make PLA prints look even close to the detail of the store bought ones, let along get the STLs or Gcodes before GW bans them. GW even bans things that look like their old rogue trader stuff. It's more difficult to find and print even near quality prints than it is to just buy them. If you get into resin printing, it's dangerous, expensive, and requires a lot of planning, space, and time investment. and they still don't look that close.
The only way 3d printing would replace GW is if GW made it legal to download their models and home print them, with pre-supported Gcodes. People are only switching to printing because they feel it MIGHT save money, but after all the upgrades, filament, replacement bits (you WILL break stuff learning this hobby) then you don't even break even, and you get maybe 5-10 ugly kinda ugly minis. No one is printing perfect sculpts of Gman and saving 100 bucks.
3d printing costs almost as much, requires a lot of learning, takes ages to even print one model, and then they look like meh.
Nope, it won't replace it, likely ever. GW has their IP protected and safe.
Yeah, really can't compare the quality or issues with FDM printing compared to resin printing. Once I get my larger build plate resin printer I will likely sell my Ender 3 Pro (and this is one GREAT printer) and say goodbye to the long print times, fiddly settings, lined prints, etc. If you are adept at the printer and software, resin is absolutely economical and you can produce great results.
MDSW wrote: Mark my word, while it may be some time yet, nearly every industry will be moving to locally printed pieces to improve and lower logistics and supply costs. It is one of the most highly invested areas in many industries. Example: You need a part for your car (realize, it can be a plastic or metal part) and instead of the auto manufacturer producing and stocking thousands of them all over the country, the local dealer auto parts will print the part you need, when you need it.
Will GW eventually get hit over the head to realize that not only can they sell their plastic kits, but eventually offer their IP protected design files for those that want to print at an even higher price profit margin? Believe me, it will happen. I would estimate within the next 10 years when 8k or 12k resolution resin printers are moderately priced and available to all. GW will still scour and protect their IP as they do today, just a little differently.
Change is happening Dakka friends!! Just not by tomorrow!
When it does happen, GW will likely release uneditable files. They will also release official licensed Games-Workshop exclusive 3d printers with software lock that allows only gcodes produced by GW to be printed on it, while preventing any other files to be printed. It will also have a number of times you can use the file before expiring. Someone will come around and hack the lock, and they will then get slapped with a C&D to be "taught a lesson." Dakka loves to talk trash about GW, but they're not dumb people. They will find a way to drain your hobby dollars one way or another.
Oh, and they will release their own proprietary viewer app (not a slicer since they will lock the file for editing) that you have to pay monthly to access and print files from. OH! and official GW licensed resin/spools with chip that tells the machine it's empty when there's still 20% volume left in the tank/spool. They will certainly do that.
3D printing will certainly alter the way consumers consume plastic crack, but it will not completely "kill off" traditional miniatures or their manufacturers.
P.S. the files will also come with massive amounts of supports that you don't need so that you run out of their 'official' material faster. And the materials will cost 5x 'generic' materials.
MDSW wrote: Mark my word, while it may be some time yet, nearly every industry will be moving to locally printed pieces to improve and lower logistics and supply costs. It is one of the most highly invested areas in many industries.
Example: You need a part for your car (realize, it can be a plastic or metal part) and instead of the auto manufacturer producing and stocking thousands of them all over the country, the local dealer auto parts will print the part you need, when you need it.
Will GW eventually get hit over the head to realize that not only can they sell their plastic kits, but eventually offer their IP protected design files for those that want to print at an even higher price profit margin? Believe me, it will happen. I would estimate within the next 10 years when 8k or 12k resolution resin printers are moderately priced and available to all. GW will still scour and protect their IP as they do today, just a little differently.
Change is happening Dakka friends!! Just not by tomorrow!
When it does happen, GW will likely release uneditable files. They will also release official licensed Games-Workshop exclusive 3d printers with software lock that allows only gcodes produced by GW to be printed on it, while preventing any other files to be printed. It will also have a number of times you can use the file before expiring. Someone will come around and hack the lock, and they will then get slapped with a C&D to be "taught a lesson." Dakka loves to talk trash about GW, but they're not dumb people. They will find a way to drain your hobby dollars one way or another.
Oh, and they will release their own proprietary viewer app (not a slicer since they will lock the file for editing) that you have to pay monthly to access and print files from. OH! and official GW licensed resin/spools with chip that tells the machine it's empty when there's still 20% volume left in the tank/spool. They will certainly do that.
3D printing will certainly alter the way consumers consume plastic crack, but it will not completely "kill off" traditional miniatures or their manufacturers.
Now you are thinking like a GW exec - good job and a likely scenario in the near future!!
In regards to kitbashing, the GW game oriented artists like Anvil Industries tend to make traditionally cut multipart models anyway. It's the D&D crowd that tends to put out monopose heroes and monsters. We're also seeing the rise of "design your own prints" apps like Heroforge, Townbuilder, Terrain Tinker...
If GW dips their toes in, they will start with terrain, as it is clearly not their bread and butter products and more of a set dressing.
We know they have the office's capability, as you can see striation marks on the Bone Fortress in the Ossiarch Bonereapers book's background shots. They have started to make it for their own internal use but not releasing the files for general consumption.
And that's where I think resin printing can sit very happily, making the initial prototypes and masters for moulding. It's far quicker/cheaper to make modifications to a digital file than to a physical sculpt. More than that, I have no idea.
And that's where I think resin printing can sit very happily, making the initial prototypes and masters for moulding. It's far quicker/cheaper to make modifications to a digital file than to a physical sculpt. More than that, I have no idea.
this is pretty much standard for years now for those working with digital sculpts
People dont understand the complexity of 3d printing, they just see easy and cheap minis. But you need to spend a day learning how to properly build supports and bases before you ever hit print on that mini. I wasted countless meters of PLA before I learned the 60/30 rule....
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: People dont understand the complexity of 3d printing, they just see easy and cheap minis. But you need to spend a day learning how to properly build supports and bases before you ever hit print on that mini. I wasted countless meters of PLA before I learned the 60/30 rule....
3D printing is still quite new, I think once its been out for a while the general knowledge base and expected standard for pre-supports will be much higher. Right now there are a lot of 3d designers who can design a 3D image but not necessarily a 3D model and not the supports to make it work at its best. They get away with it right now because 3D printing is REALLY niche so its die hard fans who are generally able and willing to put in more time. If its ever to go mass market then pre-supports being good is a must.
Are you talking about the printers or the STLs? Because the STLs are many and varied along countless websites. As for the printers, I don't know how much more "mass market" you can get with a base entry level self leveling, Ender 3 pro, with glass bed and all metal extruder, going for under $300 bucks. Thats a great system, and Cura is free.
Getting mixed messages here lol, so is it complex or is it easy? And what's the 60/30 rule, google has nothing on it. Something about overhang angles I guess?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: People dont understand the complexity of 3d printing, they just see easy and cheap minis. But you need to spend a day learning how to properly build supports and bases before you ever hit print on that mini. I wasted countless meters of PLA before I learned the 60/30 rule....
First of all spending a day to learn how to.use a new tool.effectively is not very much and sounds like a worthwhile investment of time. I'm pretty sure I spent more than a day learning the best ways of using hobby knives and clippers to remove.bits from sprues and clean up.mould lines and.suchlike.
Secondly, this was the first model I ever printed on my newly purchased resin printer, done the same day I set it up and switched it on.
I used the auto supports function in prusa slicer and set it going. It's not perfect, but it's an extremely satisfying and encouraging first go and to me indicates that you can pretty much buy a printer and the same day start producing good quality miniatures.
This is the second, again using auto supports
So the.underside is a bit messy but that doesnt bother me in the slightest given the quality of the top and front
Regarding FDM printers, my first ever 3d model.print using default settings for everything
I am not some.kind of genius. I just used default settings for everything and hit go. All this stuff can be improved through further study and learning to use the 3d printing tools.i have. However I think it's good evidence that someone interested in war games and modelling can now pick up a.3d printer and very shortly afterwards be able to produce satisfying stuff. The user can then learn as much more as they want to and reach their preferred level of perfection.
I guess there can be a lot regarding the files auto-supported and slicers and such that could be made much more user friendly with hit-n-print capabilities.
However, current status of things means you do have to spend a bit of time to learn about your printer, settings, supports, files, etc. I sincerely think if you jump into this hobby you need to invest a bit of time to learn some things to get the best results. There is a learning curve to anything you get into. This is especially true about supports - LEARN THEM! Sure, you can rely on everyone creating perfect pre-supported files, but they cannot be made to suit every machine and setting. Spend a bit of time to learn an integral part of using your printer.
If you insist on super easy print and go technology with no learning curve, it will get there, but just not right now.
lord_blackfang wrote: Getting mixed messages here lol, so is it complex or is it easy? And what's the 60/30 rule, google has nothing on it. Something about overhang angles I guess?
Some of it is because there's 2 types of printing and the posts are not specifying the types so its mixing up a bit.
There's also variation, some people are happy with minor imperfections, others want perfect printed models and any imperfection is a failure to be reprinted with adjustments. There's also the fact that if you're not seeing others prints in real life there might well be some getting results that are way below what the printer is capable of, but thinking that its the best it can do.
In the end what there certainly is, is a learning curve that's fairly steep. It's not hard, it just has a lot of elements to it that take time to learn and problem solve; esp when you have to do the learning yourself and asking questions. Which of course relies on you properly identifying the problem to be able to ask the right questions. Heck earlier this week I thought my build plate had issues, however after asking the right question to the right person I found out that its actually an issue with my base layers being greater than my burn-in layers causing peeling problems. A simple problem, but another element to fail on - identify and learn from.
Thing is some people don't want that from a hobby. They don't want too much learning.
In the end I think getting quality results from 3D printing - no matter the method - does rely on some learning and skill and dedication to working through the early teething period. It's not impossible to master to get good results, but there is a curve. Supports and sculpts are another area where its easy to make a lot of mistakes and where there's a lot of market variation. As said earlier there are some great sculpts out there with terrible supports and some so-so sculpts that are really well supported and just print great without any fuss. And of course there's quality in both together.
If you get one of the poorly supported models you've either wasted your money or you put time into learning how to support and support it yourself
MDSW wrote: I guess there can be a lot regarding the files auto-supported and slicers and such that could be made much more user friendly with hit-n-print capabilities.
However, current status of things means you do have to spend a bit of time to learn about your printer, settings, supports, files, etc. I sincerely think if you jump into this hobby you need to invest a bit of time to learn some things to get the best results. There is a learning curve to anything you get into. This is especially true about supports - LEARN THEM! Sure, you can rely on everyone creating perfect pre-supported files, but they cannot be made to suit every machine and setting. Spend a bit of time to learn an integral part of using your printer.
If you insist on super easy print and go technology with no learning curve, it will get there, but just not right now.
Sorry, a bit off-topic...
I think that's all accurate, and part of the reason why I don't think we'll really ever see a complete shift to "only print at home" as a method of miniature distribution. Will it get better and easier? Yes, but there are always going to be random factors between printers and resins, so getting to a true "plug and play" is probably not going to happen.
That said, like I've said elsewhere in this thread, I would not be surprised if smaller companies do shift more towards 3d printing as their "final delivery" production. When you can spend that investment time in dialing in a certain brand of resin with a certain printer, you can get pretty regular and reliable results, and if you're running a print farm for production, that standardization is exactly what you want to do. Right now, a lot of companies do 3d prints for their masters, then make silicone molds of them and cast resin minis. That is the method that I think is most susceptible to being replaced by just 3d printing as production, skipping the casting process entirely. I know a few small companies are already doing that (and it's what I plan to do eventually), and as printer tech improves and becomes a little more widely accepted, I think more small companies will go there.
Even so, for high volume runs, I don't see it replacing injection molding, and that generally is reserved for medium to larger companies due to the start up costs.
Nurglitch wrote: GW has their IP protected, but there are other IPs. There's sculpts out there producing stuff.
Not really, they changed to stupid names because they LOST the lawsuit against a bit's maker. You can make as many Space Marine parts or knock-offs you want, as long as they are Space Marines and not Primaris Space Marines or whatever.
That's also why Primaris came out. It was an IP thing.
I've got 3D prints of Primaris marines, though, and side by side you can't tell which one is non-GW unless you have them unpainted. But since they are NOT Primaris marines in name, but name something else, just following an "aesthetic" lolGW gets the short end of that stick. Nothing they can do........
You cannot copyright an "aesthetic". I will say some of the Dark Eldar sculpts beat out the GW sculpts by a long shot. That's saying something considering many of those sculpts are pretty good, over all, and highly detailed.
But 3D printing is not a replacement. It is an augmentation to the classic model. There is just too much thinking and tweaking involved. Same reason that despite excellent free software you don't see everyone making great 3D art. It's an "art" unto itself.
I think what I meant to say, in my clumsy fashion, was that there's a mass of non-GW stuff people can print. They don't have to restrict themselves to trying to make GW stuff.
Nurglitch wrote: I think what I meant to say, in my clumsy fashion, was that there's a mass of non-GW stuff people can print. They don't have to restrict themselves to trying to make GW stuff.
True, but for many indie companies the GW market is the safest one to cater to. But I do agree that there is tons of other interesting stuff out there.
Not really... WotC doesn't sell an official medieval fantasy village or an official dungeon, it barely sells a few official goblins and outside of a handful of copyrighted monsters the focus of their IP is not on visual design.
Now it might be that 3D printers replace regular spincasting and plastic injection moulding. AT the very least they might allow for modest sized firms to use them as a different production type. But with the long hours to print I'm not sure if it would be practical for firms like GW to shift from plastic injection moulds for mass market. Resin printers are slower so you'd need many many machines and they are more labour intensive - you've got to walk to each machine; remove models; remove them from supports without breaking; wash; cure; setup the machine for the next.
For large-scale production, like GW and the bigger firms need, direct 3d printing isn't cost effective, for sure. If you're doing thousands of models of a given sprue, plastic injection is the most cost effective (even though it has the highest set up costs in the molds). For smaller indie companies, who sell maybe 100 of a given model in a year, I think direct 3d printing is actually a pretty good option, since you can "print on demand" as needed to fill orders and maybe add a little backstock. This was talked about a bit in the other thread I linked, with some insight from folks who have done it to fulfill Kickstarters and so on. "Boutique" shops would likely benefit the most from this method, but there's definitely a point where the volume needed would push you towards injection molding (though I'm not sure right now about the metal spin casting cost comparison; resin casting is pretty close for low to medium volumes, including labor time).
I'm sure even Reaper does enough volume that it's still a better cost for them to do the molds and injection runs, particularly with their Bones line.
THIS. Having worked as an injection molder making rubber and plastic plugs for electrical components the initial startup cost for injection molding isn't cheap. Your average dye is going to be several thousand USD to have made for whatever part you need molded but it will pay for itself within a few weeks time with the thousands of components that can be formed from that one dye. And fast too. 3D printers will never match the speed of injection. GW's machines can print 1000's of Primaris SM's (just to use as an example) in a single 8 hour shift by anybody capable enough of pushing a few buttons. I don't see 3D printers being able to do that, ever. So for private citizens and maybe even small Kickstarters 3D printers are the future. But I just don't see any one entity taking over the miniature market from GW with 3D printing.
If a group of people want to unseat GW the best way is injection molding, not 3D printing.
Now, stuff like Tabletop Simulator and virtual reality, that would have more of an impact, I think.
I don't think injection molding is going to work because GW's course has been very bootstrappy, building on prior work. I don't think GW would have ever gotten to plastic injection molding if they hadn't built their IP on metal and resin miniatures, and they built those on the back of selling other people's stuff. That they started off as a retailer who branched into producing their own stuff, and gradually worked their way bigger and bigger over the course of several decades is not easily replicable. Especially when GW already exists.
Overread wrote: Having bought a 3D printer recently, I think we are a LONG way off if it ever happens
1) The cost of the printer, accessories and all the rest easily equals a 2K army in costs. Remembering that you still need all the same tools for model cleanup, assembly and painting after you get the model out. So you don't save on any of the standard hobby accessories
Whilst you can argue that the printer saves money in the long run on models, there's still a very steep upfront cost just for the hobby alone. Very steep compared to regular model buying from a store
2) It takes HOURS to make a model. Granted smaller infantry you can load up the build plate; but still in the time to print a few parts of a large model you could drive to a store, buy it, bring it home, clean and build it in less time than it takes to print.
Bigger, higher resolution printers will reduce this somewhat, but you're still looking at hours upon hours to print
3) It's technical. There's a rafter of settings for setting up the printer digitally and that's assuming you stick to 1 brand of resin. Change brands and you've got to start all over again. Failures can be caused by several aspects and there's a steep learning curve in getting good prints out of the machine.
Add this to the hours to print aspect and there's a higher level of frustration for those who might want a more immediate result or at least success.
Again your store bought model resolves all that in seconds
4) I don't "see" the market for 3D model design for companies. Right now almost all the 3D models I see for sale are sold by basically one to a few designers and someone doing some support work. Basically REALLY small teams.
Unless a company could get their own machines to sell (and honestly GW might be the only firm big enough to attempt that barring one of the 3D printing firms doing it themselves) or find other ways to monetize I can't is it offering the same level of growth.
At least unless files could be limited to total numbers of prints that can be made from them -but when you factor in the calibration and high chance for a fail (even a bad temp or not shaking the resin could cause a fail) I can't see that being attractive nor practical.
Overall I see it being niche for a very long time to come. Especially as its not child friendly in the least; which is a key demographic for growing a miniature range (or you're relying on poaching GW customers).
I'd honestly say its perhaps more risk to things like Reaper Miniatures and the like; companies focusing on making models for DnD and such. But even there I can't see it taking off big - esp as "the hobby" is often a much smaller part of their setup.
Now it might be that 3D printers replace regular spincasting and plastic injection moulding. AT the very least they might allow for modest sized firms to use them as a different production type. But with the long hours to print I'm not sure if it would be practical for firms like GW to shift from plastic injection moulds for mass market. Resin printers are slower so you'd need many many machines and they are more labour intensive - you've got to walk to each machine; remove models; remove them from supports without breaking; wash; cure; setup the machine for the next.
There's room for advancing and room for growth and its on the grow right now (my own machine is living proof of that). But I think we are a very long way from 3D printing being the revolution that change the market for big firms and casual gamers (of which there are many)
Agree with all except the replacement for spin-casting or resin casting. 3D printers are for making "Masters". Resin injection molding is fast and cheap, repeatable and reliable. 3D printing, even with all the right setting is a crap-shoot. What worked last time might fail this time due to "unforeseen" issues occurring. What 3D printing allows is for a smaller firm to rapid prototype their models, refine, and produce a quality master to cast from. Ideal for the small team company.
Agree with all except the replacement for spin-casting or resin casting. 3D printers are for making "Masters". Resin injection molding is fast and cheap, repeatable and reliable. 3D printing, even with all the right setting is a crap-shoot. What worked last time might fail this time due to "unforeseen" issues occurring. What 3D printing allows is for a smaller firm to rapid prototype their models, refine, and produce a quality master to cast from. Ideal for the small team company.
Exactly my sentiments.
Wait for the "but resin molds fail all the time too and needs to be remade!!!!" argument.
most people think that in 5 years everyone will have at least one 3D printer at home
therefore all the advantages for making many models within a short time reliable are not important anymore
everyone who wants to have an army will just print it on his own and there is no need for mass-producing models any more
I don't see this happening very soon as there is also a trend for less work on minis (easy to build, pre-painted etc)
also it is more like 15 years until 3D printing reaches a point were it will be a standard machine for every household
meatybtz wrote: Agree with all except the replacement for spin-casting or resin casting. 3D printers are for making "Masters". Resin injection molding is fast and cheap, repeatable and reliable. 3D printing, even with all the right setting is a crap-shoot. What worked last time might fail this time due to "unforeseen" issues occurring. What 3D printing allows is for a smaller firm to rapid prototype their models, refine, and produce a quality master to cast from. Ideal for the small team company.
We've been told over and over and over that resin models are expensive because casting is labour intensive and requires a high degree of skill. I daresay printing in a properly controlled environment and not a garage with random temperature swings and stuff is faster, easier and more reliable.
there is a difference between silicon mold casting and spin-casting
for spin casting you need a factory and once set up it is faster, easier and more reliable
"classic" resin casting is something everyone can do at home
and this is also were 3D printing comes in, it will replace the classic labour/time intensive casting of resin that everyone can do at home
"classic" resin casting is something everyone can do at home
and this is also were 3D printing comes in, it will replace the classic labour/time intensive casting of resin that everyone can do at home
Resin 3D printing is not for everyone at this stage.
The resins are generally toxic and require good ventilation when in operation to provide a safe environment for the operator. There is a technical setup since even if you copy-cat settings from others using the same machine and the same resin, variations in machine tolerance and local conditions (eg temperature) can result in minor variations in the best settings. You have to calibrate the machine and that requires not just doing a calibration but studying the results, understanding and adjusting and testing again. It's not plug and play er print.
After that you get failures; even well supported models can fail sometimes. Again a random quirk of bad luck; a slightly different resin than the one that was used to print the tests prints; wrong temperature; a slight lean on the machine; your FEP not being perfectly clean; your build plate not scuffed up enough; 1 second off on your bottom exposure time that works half the time but not every time.
There are multiple points of technical and failure potential within the process. Ontop of that unless you've got a huge build plate you are going to have to print things at a steady rate. YES you can print a lot, but you can still go to the GW store, buy a model, bring it home, clip it off the sprue, clean it and build it likely in less time than many will take to print. Sure if you compare infantry you might find the printer favourable (you've still got to clean them of course so every step after removal from the sprue is the same); but when parts of a dragon might take 10-20 hours you're looking at a long print time.
I think there's also a question of scale of the hobby. Those looking to get into the hobby afresh can spend as much on a 2K army as they can on a printer and all the materials that go with it. Thing is when you start the hobby you're not likely looking much beyond that one army. A few might, but many won't be thinking "Ohh I'll make 20 armies and have a dozen dragons and 50 different wizards and and and and.....). Their needs are smaller. Many getting into 3D printing are far deeper into the hobby. They've already got one or more armies or an extensive collection of models for DnD. They are branching out within the hobby for new avenues and such rather than being at the cusp.
And the thing is I don't see the 3D printer taking over home production of anything else really. At this stage it would requite a monumental shift in a huge amount of industry and social and market areas to shift from basically a disposable manufacture society into a home manufacture society. Yes it could happen, but it would require massive shifts in multiple sectors. It might come as a steady creeping process, but perhaps not for decades even if we reach a point where 3D printers are like Startrek Replicators. Lets not forget consumer 3D printing was already held back by established industry for years
one reason why I said above that I see this happening more like 15 years in the future
other people are thinking this shift will happen in the next 1-2 years, and every gaming club will have 5-10 larger resin printers to get armies and terrain done for people in the club.
and in 2-3 years every wargamer will have a Resin printer at home and GW will only sell STL files instead of models and focusing on the IP
Resin printing has never been for everyone and 10 years ago we have seen a similar hype with everyone made their own scenic bases at home because it was "easy" and "cheap"
"classic" resin casting is something everyone can do at home
and this is also were 3D printing comes in, it will replace the classic labour/time intensive casting of resin that everyone can do at home
Resin 3D printing is not for everyone at this stage.
Absolutely, printers aren't Star Trek replicators. Currently printing is a hobby itself.
That said, currently I don't see much of a difference between resin mold casting and 3d printing. Each method has advantages and disadvantages.
3D Printing seems more available than resin mold casting. My brother used to do resin mold casting, and I should maybe talk to him about how we could set up production in his garage.
Commercial 3D printers have been around since the late 80's that I know of (a company was up the road from where I used to work way back and it blew my mind back then...) So it has taken technology about, what, 30+ years to make it personally available and affordable to the masses? So, I think the 15 year mark is fairly accurate for it to be much more widely recognized, available, and machines producing consistently great results.
"classic" resin casting is something everyone can do at home
and this is also were 3D printing comes in, it will replace the classic labour/time intensive casting of resin that everyone can do at home
Resin 3D printing is not for everyone at this stage.
Absolutely, printers aren't Star Trek replicators. Currently printing is a hobby itself.
That said, currently I don't see much of a difference between resin mold casting and 3d printing. Each method has advantages and disadvantages.
Currently, the biggest factor is that resin molds are infinitely scalable with sweat equity whereas 3d printers are limited by the number of machines in place. So, scaling in mold making is time dependent whereas in 3d printing it is expenditure dependent. There is also advantage in resin molding in that it can mitigate failures with relative ease (repour resin), whereas failed prints can fail at 1st layer or at 23 hours into a 24 hour print.
Flinty wrote: And resin models can have other QA problems such as bubbles, misalignment or warpage that only become apparent after the moulds are opened.
Yes, but you can say the same about 3d printers. There are just as much, if not more, ways that can cause 3d prints to fail.
The bottom line is, both casting and printing technologies can benefit from each other as far as small to medium scale production goes. Casting augmented by 3d printed master can drastically reduce the time it takes to create a master for molds. 3D printing augmented by casting can drastically increase the rate of production.
There's no reason, at least at this current time now and within immediate foreseeable future, to completely take over the casting processes in order to "improve" production rate via 3d printers (because it doesn't. there's a reason why medium scale board game makers create proofs using 3d printers then outsource injection molders for mass production instead of going to, say, shapeways).
People who practice pure 3d printer operation is merely a proof of concept, and not necessarily that of financial gains purposes. The numbers simply don't work out unless resin printers can print at the rate of casting resin curing, especially for large pieces. And even when resin printers can keep up with rate of curing, you can still incorporate casting into the workflow to multiply the production rates.
The old adage stands - time is money, friend.
Only once 3d printers can produce models at fraction of time spent (approximately half) on casting process will it be able to overtake the industry.
Plus, think about the repercussions of 3d modelers selling STL/gcodes instead of tangible goods - what's to prevent a 3rd party printer that mass produces using those files then selling the printed tangible goods? Policies? Fine prints? Law suits?
I know not everyone plays in tournaments but I really don't see people printing off entire armies a thing to kill GW either.
As long as GW stores exist and GW sanctioned tournaments exist you will still need to own GW models to play in those stores/at those events. Perhaps GW won't exist in 15 years so maybe the 40k IP won't even exist anymore.
Not to mention GW is going to fight vigorously to defend their IP so the minute anyone puts up for sale the files for 3D printing your own "Space Marines" is when legal action will get filed. Some of the models I've seen are IMO already walking that line if not already crossed it into IP theft.
For me it's the startup cost. For the cost of a good printer and everything needed, not to mention making space for it (i live in an apartment that's already nearly too small for my current hobby setup), I can just expand one of my armies out past 2k points buying Citadel models that I know will be usable and won't cause issues if I want to expand beyond friendly games post Covid.
For me resin printing has definitely changed my purchasing habits. I'm buying a lot more paint and a lot less physical models.
FDM printing is hard, it's a hobby in itself getting it set up, keeping it running, refining the settings to finally get a passable print.
Resin printing is easy. Super easy. Just be sensible, don't drink the stuff, or you know, touch it. But how much toxic crap do we play with in our hobby, it's not rocket science. And the fact I can print a full plate of 10 28mm minis at as close to makes no difference to me commercial quality in three hours or less? It's mind blowing.
Of course if the next awesome game to come out comes with kick arse official minis I'll give it a look (Stargrave springs to mind). But if they come with official minis AND official stls I know where my money would go.
Which is all fantastic. We have so many amazing options already in our hobby. As someone who started in 1990, passing around a photocopy of a photocopy of a GW trade catalogue to figure out what we wanted to buy on our one trip a month to the store, this really is a golden age. I feel blessed to be the age I am, my disposable income has lined up nicely with new tech to play with
MDSW wrote: Commercial 3D printers have been around since the late 80's that I know of (a company was up the road from where I used to work way back and it blew my mind back then...) So it has taken technology about, what, 30+ years to make it personally available and affordable to the masses? So, I think the 15 year mark is fairly accurate for it to be much more widely recognized, available, and machines producing consistently great results.
Not technology. Licensing copyrights.
It has taken 30 years for licensing copyrights to expire on those technologies so that now any company can develop and buy their own printers using the aforementioned technologies without paying outrageous royalties for it.
Once those expired, it has taken two years to get where we are.
MDSW wrote: Commercial 3D printers have been around since the late 80's that I know of (a company was up the road from where I used to work way back and it blew my mind back then...) So it has taken technology about, what, 30+ years to make it personally available and affordable to the masses? So, I think the 15 year mark is fairly accurate for it to be much more widely recognized, available, and machines producing consistently great results.
Not technology. Licensing copyrights.
It has taken 30 years for licensing copyrights to expire on those technologies so that now any company can develop and buy their own printers using the aforementioned technologies without paying outrageous royalties for it.
Once those expired, it has taken two years to get where we are.
Yes, you are totally correct on the copyright angle - I did not consider it, but it has been a bit more than two years to get where we are today.
All printed by some dude I just saw on Facebook. The easier and more plug and play the printers get, the worse the news for people who sell casts. The cost factor is already there, it's just the difficulty one now.
I'd say the biggest barrier to mainstream resin printing is the resin itself. As it stands right now, it's probably more toxic chemicals than most people want to deal with. We really need safer resins to be developed.
TheWaspinator wrote: I'd say the biggest barrier to mainstream resin printing is the resin itself. As it stands right now, it's probably more toxic chemicals than most people want to deal with. We really need safer resins to be developed.
Anycubic soybean eco-resin is supposedly EU certified toy grade. I can personally certify it barely smells at all and doesn't damage skin from an accidental drip.
TheWaspinator wrote: I'd say the biggest barrier to mainstream resin printing is the resin itself. As it stands right now, it's probably more toxic chemicals than most people want to deal with. We really need safer resins to be developed.
Anycubic soybean eco-resin is supposedly EU certified toy grade. I can personally certify it barely smells at all and doesn't damage skin from an accidental drip.
Is that just the cured resin, or liquid resin as well?
MDSW wrote: Commercial 3D printers have been around since the late 80's that I know of (a company was up the road from where I used to work way back and it blew my mind back then...) So it has taken technology about, what, 30+ years to make it personally available and affordable to the masses? So, I think the 15 year mark is fairly accurate for it to be much more widely recognized, available, and machines producing consistently great results.
Not technology. Licensing copyrights.
It has taken 30 years for licensing copyrights to expire on those technologies so that now any company can develop and buy their own printers using the aforementioned technologies without paying outrageous royalties for it.
Once those expired, it has taken two years to get where we are.
We're probably not going to see anything significant for at least a decade. I don't see SLA or DLP becoming the "printer in every home", but think it might be polyjet. We have one at work and the major advantages it has are it can print in multiple materials, so prints are made and with the main body material and the supports are a second material that can be washed away. Also, it works by depositing the material like an inkjet and curing each layer. No post curing is needed. That's the closest I've seen to pickup and use.
It looks like most the patents tied to it are owned by Stratasys and look to be about a decade old at this point. The machines they sell are not cheap. The unit we have was six figures and the cheapest unit they sell is 20k. Given what we have seen in the last five years after a number of patents expired in 2016 gives me hope this type of printing will go through a similar revolution.
TheWaspinator wrote: I'd say the biggest barrier to mainstream resin printing is the resin itself. As it stands right now, it's probably more toxic chemicals than most people want to deal with. We really need safer resins to be developed.
Anycubic soybean eco-resin is supposedly EU certified toy grade. I can personally certify it barely smells at all and doesn't damage skin from an accidental drip.
Is that just the cured resin, or liquid resin as well?
I'm referring to it in liquid form there. I started off with it, and despite everyone saying their resin stinks to high hell, I've been able to use it with very little problems in that regard. A window slightly open is sufficient ventilation; although I suspect that may also be the fact that the new Mono (unlike the Photon) doesn't blow air through it when printing.
I've not been bothered by the smell of the resin so much, but the IPA was really affecting me. I couldn't get enough ventilation easily, so switched to water washable stuff. I also read the safety sheet properly and the stuff I am using seems to irritate the eyes more than anything else so I've take to wearing some more enclosing safety goggles along with a mask,.rather than a respirator and just my glasses and that has helped I think.
Yeah, for me the most noxious smelling was my rinse bin that had Simple Green and the IPA - the wife would comment everytime I opened that up to rinse some prints.
I've not been bothered by the smell of the resin so much, but the IPA was really affecting me. I couldn't get enough ventilation easily, so switched to water washable stuff. I also read the safety sheet properly and the stuff I am using seems to irritate the eyes more than anything else so I've take to wearing some more enclosing safety goggles along with a mask,.rather than a respirator and just my glasses and that has helped I think.
See I Hardly notice either smells these days, whether that is a good or a bad thing I have no clue. It does help we have ours sitting right next to an extractor fan (though we never turn it on, the wind outside helps pull air out there).
Agree though that, though resin printers are getting cheaper and cheaper, its still going to be more work than most people want to do.
And again, I know not everyone plays in tournaments or at stores but as long as store managers/TO's require people to use GW models in their armies for events printing a 2k army at home with not one mini belonging to GW (or any other wargaming company for that matter) is going to limit how much 3d printing happens.
IF I get a 3d printer in the future it will be to print terrain pieces. While there are some truly great looking minis that can be printed now the vast majority are nowhere near GW quality or FW quality. I'm not counting Creature Caster as that isn't one person in their basement printing those to sell, that's a whole team and I'm pretty sure if you tried right now today to bring an all CC or Raging Heroes army to a GW sanctioned event you probably wouldn't get in.
If I can buy a hard plastic miniature with lots of options for around £1 or less, I have no desire to print that mini for 50p of resin + whatever the file cost + the time/inconvenience cost involved.
At the moment, I don't play GW games or use their minis and purchase minis that are around £1 each from mantic, northstar, etc.
So, for me personally, resin printer for minis is a nope, but for someone who is looking at £10.50 for one of the new space marines? No contest.
Hah... getting a printer for terrain is the thin end of the wedge
It's like the entry level drug. "I'll just print a few bits and pieces, oh wait now I have just printed myself a new house in tiny 200x200x150mm chunks..."
There is very few tournamnets that would allow non-GW minis at their table, for very good reason. They don't want to lose those sweet sweet sponser bucks. That's why GW partnered with Reece of FLG and BoLS, so they could force their press to only have GW minis. Unless GW allows non-GW minis at events and #D printers start making FW quality resin prints, you won't see a major shift. You are much more likely to see a shift from molding/injected minis. Why buy a 200 dollar plane when you can buy it for a quarter the cost from Alexei on the interwebs.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: There is very few tournamnets that would allow non-GW minis at their table, for very good reason. They don't want to lose those sweet sweet sponser bucks. That's why GW partnered with Reece of FLG and BoLS, so they could force their press to only have GW minis. Unless GW allows non-GW minis at events and #D printers start making FW quality resin prints, you won't see a major shift. You are much more likely to see a shift from molding/injected minis. Why buy a 200 dollar plane when you can buy it for a quarter the cost from Alexei on the interwebs.
Could you elaborate on the last bit of this what do you mean by buying what on Alexei? What's Alexei do they make low-cost injection molding machines?
My thing is the apparent toxicity of the resin and potential fail of the print that can take upwards of hours to make one model.
I think if I was to print off say a complete "not a landraider but looks like a landraider" tank and 1 hour into it something goes wrong and it fails and I have a mess to clean up I'd be putting that printer on ebay and recouping my loss. I don't have patience enough to be constantly messing with a printer.
I know it depends on printer and user competence but still. Right now it's just not a investment I'm willing to make. The cost of a printer would buy a good few more models for my existing armies or let me start a new one.
If I could sculpt worth a gak (and I admit I can't) I'd try to sculpt original models and make money but for me personally I have no desire to make my hobby into a business and I just can't see me using it enough to make it worth while.
The few terrain pieces I would want I'll just buy. The models I want to buy I'll just buy. If there ever comes a time I can't afford GW products I'll quit the hobby. I quit MtG in the early 2000's because in my area it became a race to see who could spend the most on a deck; I gave up paintball in the early 2000's as well as that got too expensive to actively participate in.
Home printing is absolutely not for everyone - just like car maintenance... Sure, you might be able to change your own oil for the cheap, but sometimes you find it easier to take it to Jiffy Lube and others would never think of doing it themselves, or spending extra money to take it somewhere else. I find in many cases my time is just more valuable, so you pick and choose your battles.
MDSW wrote: Home printing is absolutely not for everyone - just like car maintenance... Sure, you might be able to change your own oil for the cheap, but sometimes you find it easier to take it to Jiffy Lube and others would never think of doing it themselves, or spending extra money to take it somewhere else. I find in many cases my time is just more valuable, so you pick and choose your battles.
Where I live it would actually cost more for me to do an oil change myself.
I have a Mono X, so no issues printing vehicles in one piece, or printing entire squads on one build plate. After the initial learning curve, printing failures occur once in a blue moon, so for me, are a non-issue.
For me, that often makes the level of effort for printing something easier than buying a kit if I have access to a file for it. Printing a one-piece tank requires far less effort than cutting out all the plastic parts, cleaning mold lines, covering inevitable gaps, and actual assembly.
That not might be everyone's experience, and that's OK.
I'm currently working on a project, and make a case-by-case decision on each model - do I buy and assemble a model for this, or just print one? The project is about 50/50 so far - depending on each unique model's circumstances leading to a decision on print it or not.
TheWaspinator hit the nail on the head though - "silly", "fun", "cool" projects that would never be feasible for manufacturing lines are where printing really shines. Being able to make breakdancing models, sci-fi troopers riding dragons, or those Raygun Raptors leads to more creativity among artists, and more interesting, unique options for folks to put on their armies on the tabletop.
Down here in NZ there are no GW-sponsored events. All events have to find their own prize supports, usually coming from small hobby stores in the region or from Mighty Ape (our version of Amazon, but very small in comparison).
because of this TO's are far more likely to say if it looks the part then it is fine. We had an event late last year where 2 3D printed giants were used by different people as allied Mega Gargants in AOS.
