Apologies if I managed to overlook a dozen similar threads. None jumped out at me on the first page.
Just got my new Drukhari 'dex and skimmed over everything but the crusade rules. (They look pretty juicy though!) Some random thoughts:
* Overall, it seems like they went for a raw power boost to statlines rather than fixing some of the more nuanced issues. For instance, most of our melee weapons got an extra point of AP, but the mindphase gauntlet remains a super bland never-take. Our characters are better beatsticks, but we still have the same issue of being a pirate ship army that can't use strats or buff auras on our embarked units. Power From Pain is probably more useful, but it's still the "charging your pain batteries" approach. The shadowfield is unchanged despite being annoying for drukhari players and their opponents alike.
* There are a few weird rules overlaps/interactions/non-interactions. The Webway Raiders kabal trait is still a thing and says something to the effect of, "Each time you use the Webway Assault stratagem..." But they cut out the rule that lets you use that stratagem more than once meaning the kabal trait basically just refunds you a single CP if you use the 3CP version of the strat. The flesh gauntlet on grotesques seems like it might just always be worse than using their monstrous cleavers now thanks to the changes to both weapons. Hellions still don't look great to me, but there's a stratagem that can turn them into a buffing unit for your reavers. More scourge weapons than ever are susceptible to the heavy weapon to-hit penalty thus making you actively want to avoid using the movement stat on your jump pack unit. Just a couple odd things like that here and there that make me wonder if something got changed a few times during development and then never got polished.
* Despite not addressing every single one of my pet peeve units/rules, they did do a lot of cool stuff. Mandrakes are now infiltrators instead of deepstrikers during deployment, but you can basically Sky Leap them (like a swooping hawk). Which fits t heir shadow dancer shenanigans pretty well. The Shock Prow stratagem looks really heckin' fun to use, and I hope other books go a similar route with their own "ramming weapons." The court of the archon is back to being a single unit, and all the court members seem useful again. Beast masters can give advance + charge to a beast unit each turn, which feels way more satisfying than just being a captain for them. Cronos feel like proper support units again. They remembered to give the Hovering rule to all our skimmers this time... Just. Lots of satisfying little improvements that make me excited to use the book.
* Our HQs feel more on-brand. The succubus is back to being more stabby than the archon. The haemonculus can heal things without spending CP. All of them seem like they have the potential to actually win a fight against an enemy beatstick. Overall, a good change. Even if the haemonculus is less customizable than ever.
* Our wargear got stronger, but didn't gain back any of the flavor it used to have. Mindphase gauntlets are still bland. The electrocorrosive whip is still basically a better agonizer (though at least there's an AP difference to differentiate them slightly). No return of the clone field or ghostplate options for non-scourges or wings/bikes for HQs or any of that. Shredders lost their anti-infantry special rule (but are still pretty good). Ossefactors no longer cause bone-splosions. Basically, there's no return to the juicy, exotic wargear of the past or the flexible armory system that let you make your characters feel unique, but what's there is mostly pretty good. Except the mindphase gauntlet. Poor mindphase gauntlet.
Overall, it looks like a good book to me. I'm excited to use it. I think I can play some really flavorful armies. I feel like I could build a competitive, optimized list that coudl compete with competitive marines if I were so inclined. It seems like the focus was to power things up rather than to recapture the fluff we've lost over the years, but the crusade section seems like it might be juicy enough to offset that lack of flavor. Glad I bought it. Looking forward to using it.
Oh. And they still seem to think the cool thing about the Poisoned Tongue kabal is the literal poison they use. Which I personally find gauche, but at least Flayed Skull losing their splinter rerolls means we're actually the best splinter kabal instead of a worse version of FS.
Marshal Loss wrote: As a non-Dark Eldar player, I think it's a fantastic book. Very few parts where it falls short. Really hope that CSM receive as solid a treatment.
Fantastic book?
I don't have my ordered copy yet.
For me, everything will depend on the competitiveness of the codex. Here I'm a bit sceptical.
There are definitely a lot of positives about the book but for me at least there are also a lot of frustrations.
These aren't necessarily big things but a lot of little niggles can still add up.
- Power From Pain is better overall but there are now two major problems. The first is that you now lose it entirely if you ally with other Eldar, even if you go Ynnari. And since the rule that replaced it is unwashed garbage, DE are now severely penalised if they want to take allies. This is in stark contrast to other armies which get extra rewards for playing mono-armies, rather than losing a chunk of their existing bonuses if they don't.
The second issue is that the changes to PfP don't seem to have been acknowleged elsewhere in the codex. To give some examples, the Nightmare Doll used to upgrade a Haemonculus' 6+ FNP to 4+ FNP, which was a marked improvement. Now, however, the Haemonculus has 5+ FNP as standard and yet the Nightmare Doll still only upgrades it to a 4+ FNP with no extra effect. Similarly, the Obsidian Veil granted a 4++ to an Archon, allowing him to conserve his Shadowfield for use against the most dangerous weapons and also ensuring that he still has a save when it finally fails. Now, though, an Archon will have a 5++ by turn 4 at the latest, yet the Obsidian Veil remains unchanged.
This sort of thing really bothers me - especially for a codex that was hardly swimming in options to begin with.
- On a similar note, I definitely don't agree about our HQs being much improved. Outside of special characters (which I really don't care about either way), only the Succubus saw any significant improvement. And, in complete fairness, she was improved substantially. She's now a lot more solid in terms of her base stats and abilities, her Master ability is great, and (IMO) she has by far the fewest duds in terms of Relics and Warlord traits. The problem is that the Archon and Haemonculus came of very much the worse for wear.
Firstly, it seems that the Succubus' melee prowess came not just by buffing her own statline (good) but by nerfing the melee abilities of the Archon and Haemonculus (bad). The Archon's best weapon was already weak, now it's just a waste of ink (and his other weapons are no better). Meanwhile, the Haemonculus has lost an attack and also his entire selection of wargear. That's right, the master of science who brings all manner of unusual and esoteric weapons to the field now has 0 weapon options. Hell, even if you factor in the artefacts, his selection amounts to 1 sword and 1 pistol. Wheeeee. So now his wargear amounts to a garbage pistol, a melee weapon you can only ever make 1 attack with, a mediocre melee weapon, and a melee weapon you'll never use because his other melee weapon is outright better.
Now, I don't mind the Archon and Haemonculus not being great at combat. Though I'd make the case that they weren't particularly good in combat anyway. Even with their old stats and weapons, they'd still be lucky to kill 2 Marines per combat. Is this really considered over the top? Regardless, I wouldn't mind them being bad in melee - provided they had other abilities to make up for it. Instead, it's almost the opposite.
The Haemonculus has actually lost both his Hexrifle and Liquifier Gun options, so he can't be a ranged threat. He did at least gain the ability to heal Grotesques, Talos and Cronos. However, he now feels exceptionally expensive for a character stuck completely in a support role (and a role he's not even particularly good at). He's helped even less by the codex shifting the focus of Covens far more towards transport-based lists, which the Haemonculus is completely unsuited to supporting.
Meanwhile, while the Haemonculus at least got the ability to heal Coven units, the Archon got . . . nothing. There were so many possibilities. They could have given him more of a ranged focus, perhaps letting him take a Blaster and maybe even other weapons like Shredders. Instead, he's still stuck choosing between a worthless pistol and a pistol with a range so short you practically need to be pointing up the enemy's nostril before it will fire. What's more, the only artefact with a decent range (the Soul Seeker) was already weak in 8th and received basically no improvement at all. For context, it's meant to be a character-sniping pistol, yet its so weak that even if you add in a warlord trait that would let it reroll all hits and wounds, it still won't even kill a Platoon Commander on average dice, let alone be a threat to anything more substantial. It really needed an extra shot at the very least, instead it lost the ability to target units out of LoS.
There was also the possibility to make the Archon more strategic. Maybe let him reduce the cost of a stratagem by one each turn or let you case one of a small pool of such for free each turn. Or just give him a way to potentially generate extra CP. Just anything that would emphasise that his main focus is on the wider strategy, rather than melee combat. Or maybe change his aura into something more appropriate, which could also work from inside transports (e.g. let him designate a unit within 18" of himself/his transport each turn for the appropriate units to reroll hits against).
These are just random ideas off the top of my head but the point is that he needed something. Other HQs get the same (usually better, in fact) aura he does whilst also being good in combat to boot. The Archon gets his aura... and that's it. That's all he gets. He utterly sucks in combat beyond one very specific combination of relic and warlord trait, yet he has absolutely nothing else to do instead. No strategic abilities, no other support abilities, no ranged ability. He seems to exist just to be punched to death by a Canoness (incidentally, another HQ with the same aura but with vastly better weapons and support options).
But do you know the hilarious part? Having completely defanged the Archon's melee ability, GW had the brilliant idea to let his aura also affect a melee unit now. Also his Master ability lets him fight twice 1/game with his utterly garbage melee ability.
Sorry for the long rant but this really bugs me. In another book it might not be so bad but DE have just 3 generic HQs and now two already mediocre ones have been hammered into the ground for no good reason.
It's a shame because there are many things to like about the new book but, as someone who cares about the characters, this really puts the dampers on it for me.
I don't play DE but the book looks pretty decent, looks like certain units such as Wyches and Hellions have got the buff they were desperately needing.
Bit meh on the fact that they could have made some upgrades, relics, etc, a bit more unique, whereas we're given the standard boring buffs such as 5+ FNP, -1 to hit, etc.
Could have done something a bit more unique for the special units such as Bloodbrides and Trueborn. It's a welcome addition but I would have liked to see a little more.
I mean, I guess the way I look at it is, there's a distinction between 'how a unit looks in a vacuum on its own without considering any traits/options/etc' and 'how will I actually, practically use a unit within a game'?
yes, the archon has an extremely narrow use window and an extremely poor melee damage output in his default loadout.
I will never ever ever ever ever ever use his default loadout in a game. Why the hell would I? If I want to run an all-kabals list, I'm gonna run a battalion, my first HQ is going to be INSANELY better, not even in the same universe Master Archon with Djinn Blade and Hatred Eternal, who does literally like 10 times as much damage in melee as a default archon on the turn he double fights, and my second HQ, oh look, it's drazar, Dude Who Kills Everything.
If I want to run Kabals plus something else in patrols or a realspace raid, I want my archon to be the warlord anyway to use the various strats tied to that, so either I'll have the Actually Useful Support Build Archon (whose aura effects basically everything, who also refunds me cp, and who also has a reroll 1s to wound aura) or I'll have Murder Archon again.
The haemonculus took a small damage hit specifically against W2 targets with the loss of the EC whip (he kills 1.11 meq instead of 1.3) but he gained better damage vs GEQ, better damage vs invuln-protected characters (because while he did technically lose 1 from his Attacks STAT, one of his weapons now makes 2 bonus attacks....), and better ability to support his creations. since he's always been designed and fluffed as a support HQ - it feels like that's a more important buff to have.
Also, in terms of 'practically, how is my stuff going to actually play' it's worth noting that I get 2 extra CP just for choosing to structure my army as patrols. the extra warlord trait and relic stratagems happen to cost 1cp each. So I feel like it makes sense for me to basically only consider HQs as holding relics and having traits and let that be the general barometer for their quality, because I have absolutely no reason ever to field them without them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, on hellions.... No idea where youre getting that theyre no good. Imo theyre basically 100% better at melee reaver jetbikes now. They murder intercessors efficiently, which is something I always always need in my life.
A hellion has a 100% points return in melee vs an intercessor. And they casually doubled their durability.
the_scotsman wrote: I mean, I guess the way I look at it is, there's a distinction between 'how a unit looks in a vacuum on its own without considering any traits/options/etc' and 'how will I actually, practically use a unit within a game'?
yes, the archon has an extremely narrow use window and an extremely poor melee damage output in his default loadout.
I will never ever ever ever ever ever use his default loadout in a game. Why the hell would I? If I want to run an all-kabals list, I'm gonna run a battalion, my first HQ is going to be INSANELY better, not even in the same universe Master Archon with Djinn Blade and Hatred Eternal, who does literally like 10 times as much damage in melee as a default archon on the turn he double fights, and my second HQ, oh look, it's drazar, Dude Who Kills Everything.
I think it's incredibly telling that you managed to make one good Archon and then immediately had to take a special character instead of a second Archon.
Because the Archon has maybe one good combination of weapons and warlord traits and then you're stuck scraping the bottom of the barrel for anything that will make him slightly less abysmal.
Look, I agree with you that you're never going to take an Archon without Warlord Traits or Artefacts.
But what you perpetually ignore is that those things have an inherent opportunity cost because you can only ever have 1 of each. Yes, you can make a decent blender-Archon with the right relic and the right warlord trait but the point I keep making is that you're doing that at the expense of everything else.
Just imagine for a moment if the Archon's basic melee weapons were actually worth a damn on their own. Now you can still take a blender-option if you really want to but you could also take other options - defence, ranged, support etc. without completely compromising his ability to contribute meaningfully in melee.
I honestly don't understand why this seems to be considered a heinous request. Imagine if SM captains had just a single Power Sword as their only melee weapon, and then maybe a single Relic Blade as an actual Relic item for if you really wanted to build them as melee characters. Do you think SM players would shrug and point to the one good melee build available, or would they be rather annoyed that their characters have just one functional melee build?
The haemonculus took a small damage hit specifically against W2 targets with the loss of the EC whip (he kills 1.11 meq instead of 1.3) but he gained better damage vs GEQ, better damage vs invuln-protected characters (because while he did technically lose 1 from his Attacks STAT, one of his weapons now makes 2 bonus attacks....), and better ability to support his creations. since he's always been designed and fluffed as a support HQ - it feels like that's a more important buff to have.
I think you're forgetting the extra damage from the Electrocorrosive Whip. Even against characters with Invulnerable saves, the single extra attack doesn't come close to making up for that.
To be honest, though, the biggest issue for me is that I now look at the Haemonculus and just can't find anything to get excited about. He's got four weapons but none of them are remotely interesting, and nor can he take any other wargear anymore (farewell my sniper Haemonculus). His support abilities are okay but again, nothing exciting. Most of his relics and traits just make him a bit tougher, rather than helping him actually accomplish anything.
I don't think he's quite as bad as the Archon in terms of role. I just find his new design to be rather boring and uninteresting, which is the last thing I want to see in my mas scientist.
Also, in terms of 'practically, how is my stuff going to actually play' it's worth noting that I get 2 extra CP just for choosing to structure my army as patrols. the extra warlord trait and relic stratagems happen to cost 1cp each. So I feel like it makes sense for me to basically only consider HQs as holding relics and having traits and let that be the general barometer for their quality, because I have absolutely no reason ever to field them without them.
Again, it's not that I expect Archons and such to be fielded without relics or traits. It's that I don't think they should have to rely on them just to be even vaguely competent at their core roles.
Librarians don't have to take an artefact and Warlord trait jus to unlock the ability to actually cast psychic powers.
Tau commanders don't have to take an artefact and warlord trait in order to obtain basic, functional guns.
But one of our primary melee HQs has to take an artefact and a warlord trait just to function as a melee character.
I'm sorry but I just cannot fathom why people seem to think this is good design.
There's some truth to that. Marines can still make a suicide Captain with a Jump Pack and Thunder Hammer if they wanted for example, it's just less efficient of a bomb. GW meanwhile didn't fix the HQs for Dark Eldar AGAIN.
But what you perpetually ignore is that those things have an inherent opportunity cost because you can only ever have 1 of each.
I take your point, but merely post to illustrate the impact of writing from a particular point of view.
We have not one, but two ways to increase the number of WL traits available to our armies- one that functions to create virtual Warlords in realspace raids and one that works to create additional warlords in other patrol detachments and the third option of using both at the same time.
We have a strat that impacts the number of Relics we can take too.
And for those of us playing Crusade, warlord traits and relics are EVERYWHERE.
Again, your point does stand- it would have been better to create a better suite of viable non-relic, non-WL Trait options for all of HQ's. I'm not disagreeing with that.
As for the Crusade content of this dex, which folks haven't really written about yet, it's the best I've seen so far; the Ascendant Lord/ Commorragh mini-game is fabulous. Like it's so good that this book could have been marketed as the Lords of Commorragh mini-game, which includes the Drukhari dex. Seriously- if you are a Crusade player, even if you don't play DE, this book is an examplar of how far Crusade content can go.
Id argue there are three useful archon builds available, but honestly, yeah. I do think you coyld have one good melee build and one good command build for basically any given HQ, and theyd function just fine. And I do think that being reliant on relics and traits is OK for us in particular, because gw said "here, have 2 extra CP, Treat Yoself."
I do feel your pain regarding characters, I don't necessarily want every archon in my army to be as killy as a hatred eternal djinn blade fight twice archon, but most of his options do feel like redundant/inferior versions of each other. It used to be that your archon could take basically any wargear in the book plus a few unique options available only to himself. You could make an archon feel uniquely yours and turn him into an infantry blender (of several varieties), a tank hunter, a monster hunter, or a gunner depending on how you equipped him. Presently, it feels like your options are reduced to making him a good infantry blender, an okay infantry blender, or a bad infantry blender, and you can only have one of the first.
And yeah, giving him basically a captain aura again just really feels like the designers don't have much personal experience with drukhari. We spent all of 8th commenting on how weird the "jog behind your boats" archon was. I really hoped they'd give him a targeted buff that he could use while embarked. Something akin to the 7th edition starter box's formation.
Haemonculi in 5th edition were the unit for fielding all sorts of interesting and exotic wargear. Now they have literally no wargear options, and a bunch of cool conversions/kitbashes just became wracks.
I feel like I'm coming off as very negative in this thread, and I don't mean to be. I like more about the codex than I dislike. I'm excited to use it. I just get the impression that the rules writers are not themselves drukhari players. There's no nod to the old customization options that we loved. There's no understanding of some of the semi-subtle things that bug us. Like, the archon aura works on incubi now. That's nice, but was that change made because someone only half-understood our frustration around mercenaries being unbuffable?
No model in the game has an ability they can use from inside a transport (outside of being able to shoot because of a transports specific rule). What reason do you have that a DEldar character should get the protection of being untargetable by functionally everything (mortal wound splash / explosions / snipers / etc) and be able to pass out a buff from a larger footprint than any other infantry sized model in the game.
This forum talks about 'balance' so much you'd have thought the above idea wouldn't even get to print, let alone be suggested as a 'we want this'
I would say that the archon being able to buff everything in a Realspace Raid is more of a nod to that. Mercenaries, covens, cults, and kabals.
A few use case ideas for an archon:
1) the obvious one. Shred a whole squad of custodes, a tank, whatever you want really.
2) in a transport with the animus vitae in a turn 2 tempo fast assault list.
Give your whole army +1 to hit on turn 2. Give him a warlord trait like Connsumate Weaponmaster for a D2 venom blade or one of the two +1 strength ones to give him decent melee capabilities so he can participate in the charge with the Incubi.
3) give him the writ and labyrinthine and run him in a realspace raid with some Talos pain engines/scourges for him to buff the hit rolls of
4) give him a gun relic and pop him into a dark tech venom with a wrack squad and melt space marines.
If I was god and I could write up the whole codex myself, would I give the archon access to the whole wargear list because obviously he should have whatever he wants? Sure.
Would I ever in a million years pass up any of The relic/trait builds in favor of running my archon as a BS2+ dude with a heat lance? No.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BroodSpawn wrote: No model in the game has an ability they can use from inside a transport (outside of being able to shoot because of a transports specific rule). What reason do you have that a DEldar character should get the protection of being untargetable by functionally everything (mortal wound splash / explosions / snipers / etc) and be able to pass out a buff from a larger footprint than any other infantry sized model in the game.
This forum talks about 'balance' so much you'd have thought the above idea wouldn't even get to print, let alone be suggested as a 'we want this'
He did say "targeted buff". You know, like how a commander can give an order out of a chimera.
Or just, give him the ability to be on a bike/board again.
BroodSpawn wrote: No model in the game has an ability they can use from inside a transport (outside of being able to shoot because of a transports specific rule). What reason do you have that a DEldar character should get the protection of being untargetable by functionally everything (mortal wound splash / explosions / snipers / etc) and be able to pass out a buff from a larger footprint than any other infantry sized model in the game.
Well that's a question so loaded it should probably require a firearm licence.
Answering it seems almost pointless as you clearly have no interest on any sort of debate on the matter.
However, for the record, the reason people think DE should have an aura or ability that functions from a transport is because fighting from transports is a unique playstyle that DE have. Hence, it's a bit odd that the DEHQs seem to be built for an entirely different theme than the one they're meant to specialise in.
As it stands, Archons are in the weird position where their retinue of Trueborn want to be flying around in a Raider shooting things, yet if the Archon rides with them he can neither buff them nor contribute to their firepower.
It would be akin to Tau HQs having no guns and only being able to hand out melee buffs.
Even if you don't want an aura to work out of a vehicle (because of the larger footprint) is there a good reason why the Archon's aura couldn't at least affect the occupants of the vehicle he's in?
Yeah. I wasn't suggesting an aura that extends from the vehicle he's in. Letting him benefit the vehicle he's inside of or his fellow passengers would already make more sense. Or maybe let him target a single unit (or the passengers of a single unit) and buff them. Or give him guard-style orders so he can command a vehicle to move after shooting or let passengers in a vehicle disembark instead of shooting provided the vehicle didn't advance this turn, or let him grant the Swift Out Flanking stratagem to a unit from his kabal for free, or any number of other things.
There are tons of ways you could make the archon feel like he's the brains behind a raiding party of flying pirate ships. Making him jump out of said pirate ships alongside units that don't want to leave their pirate ships and then yell, "Shoot more betterer!" is just... weird.
It's like if your khorne daemon HQ had an aura that only buffed shooting and only works if he doesn't charge or fight that turn. It's technically a useful ability, but it feels really awkward and out of place.
EDIT: And it was weird throughout all of 8th edition too, which is part of why I find it frustrating that this is still a thing. They found the time to decide that haywire blasters and heat lances really needed to be heavy weapons, but they didn't think that the goofy archon jogging behind his gunboats was worth addressing.
It is absolutely a book that ups the power levels of a lot of stuff without fundamentally fixing the issues that have developed for the faction over the years. DE is still a faction that floods the board with lots of cheapish junk, the junk is just much more efficient now that it got the typical 9th edition codex creep buff.
I would take this as a signal for what's going to happen moving forward. You're not going to see CWE go back to what they were in early editions of the game. They'll still be a cheap junk faction too, they'll just get much better at being a cheap junk faction the same way that DE did. For whatever reason, GW seems absolutely committed to this world where there are two types of factions - space marines factions, and everyone else. Space marine factions (custodes get a buy-in here as honorary space marines) compete on the strength of their models, everybody else competes through leveraging the power of efficient junk.
Whether you consider that good or not largely depends on whether you're happy with that paradigm. If you are, the DE book works quite well within it, certainly better than the 8th edition one did.
Wyldhunt wrote: Apologies if I managed to overlook a dozen similar threads. None jumped out at me on the first page.
* There are a few weird rules overlaps/interactions/non-interactions. The Webway Raiders kabal trait is still a thing and says something to the effect of, "Each time you use the Webway Assault stratagem..." But they cut out the rule that lets you use that stratagem more than once meaning the kabal trait basically just refunds you a single CP if you use the 3CP version of the strat. The flesh gauntlet on grotesques seems like it might just always be worse than using their monstrous cleavers now thanks to the changes to both weapons. Hellions still don't look great to me, but there's a stratagem that can turn them into a buffing unit for your reavers. More scourge weapons than ever are susceptible to the heavy weapon to-hit penalty thus making you actively want to avoid using the movement stat on your jump pack unit. Just a couple odd things like that here and there that make me wonder if something got changed a few times during development and then never got polished.
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Flesh Gauntlets are secretly your anti-horde option. The mortal wound spillover meant they were always your best options attacking 1 wound models with low save/invulnerable saves like orks or harlies, and the addition of s6 and blade artists pulls them ahead against GEQ in the new dex.
You signed up for Eldar elites being roughly equal to a normal space marine, while elite space marines are far more powerful? Not trying to be a gotcha, just making sure we're on the same page here re: how you think things should be.
As for disagreeing with GW, it's a disagreement with the direction GW has taken things from 8th edition on. It didn't used to be the case that eldar were hopelessly inferior to marines and can only compete with them through weight of bodies.
If any of my xenos factions get as good a codex a this one, I will be happy, not sad that « my elite stuff is not as good as space marine elite stuff Bouh houh houh I think I will cry » or whatever BS I have read in this thread.
Rejoice, IMHO thescotsman has nailed it. I think uncareful drukari players will lose though, while tourney vets will rake in many wins with that book. It really seems like good stuff, though the lack (disappearance) of very unique stuff is the only « fail » I see here
yukishiro1 wrote: You signed up for Eldar elites being roughly equal to a normal space marine, while elite space marines are far more powerful? Not trying to be a gotcha, just making sure we're on the same page here re: how you think things should be.
An Incubi at 16 points does 2.78 wounds to a 20 point Intercessor (or any other T4 Sv3+ model), 1.67 Wounds to a 35 point Bladeguard Veteran (or any other T4 model with 2+ Save or 4+ Invulnerable Save), and 2.08 points to a 28 point Heavy Intercessor (or any other T5, Sv3+ model). He dies to a stiff breeze based on his T3, Sv 3+/PFP, but he hits like a truck for his points. Point for point, I can't image there are many units that want to be in close combat with Incubi. They may be an extreme, but they are deadly.
As for disagreeing with GW, it's a disagreement with the direction GW has taken things from 8th edition on. It didn't used to be the case that eldar were hopelessly inferior to marines and can only compete with them through weight of bodies.
Haven't Eldar always been inferior to marines going by their Stat Block? It was always their superior weapons and special rules that made them better in my experience.
yukishiro1 wrote: You signed up for Eldar elites being roughly equal to a normal space marine, while elite space marines are far more powerful? Not trying to be a gotcha, just making sure we're on the same page here re: how you think things should be.
As for disagreeing with GW, it's a disagreement with the direction GW has taken things from 8th edition on. It didn't used to be the case that eldar were hopelessly inferior to marines and can only compete with them through weight of bodies.
....fething when, my dude? When was a kabalite not several points cheaper than a marine, an incubi not about the same as a marine, a reaver not a bit more than a marine and a grotesque/clawed fiend/court of the archon member not the rough equivalent of a marine elite? I like painting models, I dont want 16 point kabalites and 30 point incubi. Itd be ridiculously difficult to balance drukhari as a glass cannon faction if there werent more expensive elite infantry running around for them to be able to explode.
Argive wrote: How are clawed fiends? Can you use them in soup?
They're not great. WS4+ is never what you want to see on a melee unit. Nor a lack of any worthwhile armour, invulnerable and FNP saves.
That said, they're also probably one of the best units to soup because they don't get FNP (and thus don't lose core abilities as a result of souping).
They're basically sliiightly better spawn with M10 and fixed attacks, but no random abilities and much lower LD ( offset by beastmaster a bit ).
They gained an AP and they get extra attacks for all models in the unit instead of just one when one is wounded. Incubi kills 1.4 marines ( 16 points ). Fiend kills 1.1 ( 1.3 in rage ) / ( 25 points plus BM ). One it T5 W4 5+ with little support and the other is T3 3+ with lots of support.
I imagine we'll see some supplement in a campaign that gives them some additional tools.
Argive wrote: How are clawed fiends? Can you use them in soup?
Im no DE player but ive always like the models and was considering getting some OOP metal ones for paintings
That last sentence makes me wonder if you mean clawed fiends (the big gorilla rat things) or khymarae (the quadrupeds that look more like the old warp beasts from the first codex.)
Both seem good in their own ways. Khymarae are as cheap as wyches, hit about as hard, and don't need a transport to quickly get up the table. If you go second, I could see these guys being good for advance + charging at an enemy unit that wandered onto an objective turn 1. They're a lot like wyches with the movement, strength, and toughness drugs but with one fewer attacks. I like them.
I think of clawed fiends as faster, squishier grotesques. They move faster, can be advance + charged just like khymarae, and have a very similar offensive output to a grotesque. However, they're 25 points per dude with a 5+ save, and they look scary across the table. I feel like it might be difficult to keep them alive long enough to be a good investment.
I only own one clawed fiend, but I've used both fiends and khymarae in the past as mobile screens and easy-to-hide objective achievers. They can't perform most actions, so you probably won't put them directly on an objective, BUT they're fast and small enough to hide on the flanks for Engage on All Fronts or linebreaker or to just sprinkle around the table to screen out deepstrikers. If you want to run larger units and actually do damage with them, the Leadership drug on the beastmaster is a must.
Argive wrote: How are clawed fiends? Can you use them in soup?
Im no DE player but ive always like the models and was considering getting some OOP metal ones for paintings
That last sentence makes me wonder if you mean clawed fiends (the big gorilla rat things) or khymarae (the quadrupeds that look more like the old warp beasts from the first codex.)
Both seem good in their own ways. Khymarae are as cheap as wyches, hit about as hard, and don't need a transport to quickly get up the table. If you go second, I could see these guys being good for advance + charging at an enemy unit that wandered onto an objective turn 1. They're a lot like wyches with the movement, strength, and toughness drugs but with one fewer attacks. I like them.
I think of clawed fiends as faster, squishier grotesques. They move faster, can be advance + charged just like khymarae, and have a very similar offensive output to a grotesque. However, they're 25 points per dude with a 5+ save, and they look scary across the table. I feel like it might be difficult to keep them alive long enough to be a good investment.
I only own one clawed fiend, but I've used both fiends and khymarae in the past as mobile screens and easy-to-hide objective achievers. They can't perform most actions, so you probably won't put them directly on an objective, BUT they're fast and small enough to hide on the flanks for Engage on All Fronts or linebreaker or to just sprinkle around the table to screen out deepstrikers. If you want to run larger units and actually do damage with them, the Leadership drug on the beastmaster is a must.
Important to note that for both the advance & charge comes from the beastmaster at one use per unit. And then you need to worry about keeping the beastmaster close enough after the charge so they don't auto-fail morale.
Important to note that for both the advance & charge comes from the beastmaster at one use per unit. And then you need to worry about keeping the beastmaster close enough after the charge so they don't auto-fail morale.
True. Although personally, I... kind of just don't worry about failing morale after the beasts hit combat. Khymarae are so squishy that they tend to be pretty much wiped out the first time my opponent attacks them. So if I deliver them into combat and they kill their target, they probably get shot to death on the next turn. If I deliver them into combat and they don't kill the target, there's a good chance that the models left alive are either so bad at melee that I don't have to worry about morale or else good enough at melee that I'm going to lose the unit anyway. There's some middle ground, but I've started to treat morale as a bit of a secondary concern after I hit the enemy. I've found it's more important prior to hitting melee when my opponent is popping some shots at them.
I was sorting of hoping they'd merge the various beasts back into one unit Court of the Archon style. Let razorwings be ablative wounds and volume of attacks, let clawed fiends be the muscle, and let khymarae use their shadowcat walk-through-walls powers to serve as the squad's storm shields.
No need to worry about morale if you just run one nipple monkey. Can't fail morale if you're one model. But what you can do is raise a good good banner with one.
Wyldhunt wrote: Can you? I don't have my rulebook in front of me, but I thought only infantry could raise banners.
Yea infantry only. You could sneak 3 single bases into the backfield for 1 CP, but you have to wait until turn 3, so otherwise stick them behind obscuring and babysit your own stuff?
Oh god this is so good. You guys must have seen this before me but take bloodbrides, precise killers obsession (Which is shockingly not all-consuming) and take +1 attack combat drug. Take this with as many patrol detachments for wych cult you can since you can take precise killers and any other obsession to count as a different cult. Hit on 2s, every 5 to wound goes through 3 armor and you get a significant blender unit with solid numbers of attacks.
*dark eldar O-noises commence*
Seriously where's the meme where a dude puts the blood of his enemies on his face but with an archon or succubus. MEQs and monsters will be pissed.
I'm gonna use this before they nerf it. They'll probably make it all consuming or something.
the_scotsman wrote: I feel like a significant chunk of the playerbsse fundamentally disagrees with GW about how elite a space marine should be.
My troops are sbout 1/2 as expensive as a marine, and equal points can hold their own against equal points of marines.
My elites are about the cost of a marine, but faster, killier, and more fragile.
Thats what I signed up for, thats why im here. I checked the box that said dark eldar, id like to be fast, kill a lot, and be more fragile.
That sounds like how Dark Eldar should play. Am I wrong?
On Archons: is any 65 PPM HQ very good without a warlord trait and/or relic?
Personally, I kind of like where the drukhari are in terms of eliteness. Our mooks are able to pick on the mooks of most armies. Our elites are good at their jobs but are better at bullying ideal targets than engaging in "fair" fights.
65 point HQs can be good for their points without relying on specific relics and warlord traits. Especially if they're support HQs. A company commander is great at what he does for a lot fewer points. A troupe master is both a good beatstick and a good force multiplier. A warlock isn't much of a beatstick, but he packs some of the best support powers in the game. The archon is a bit weird because he's only a mediocre beatstick without relics and warlord traits, but he's also only a mediocre force multiplier because his buffs require he stand around outside a transport and next to any other units that want to get buffed. Compare to the troupemaster who goes from a good beatstick to a better beatstick and is generally pretty comfortable being in the same spot as his troupes.
alextroy wrote: Haven't Eldar always been inferior to marines going by their Stat Block? It was always their superior weapons and special rules that made them better in my experience.
Of course. I never said otherwise (though the stat block inferiority is now substantially larger). But the point is that the superior weapons and special rules no longer exist either. Elite Drukhari melee units are about half as powerful (as measured by points) as elite space marine units now, just like non-elite drukhari cost about half what non-elite space marines cost. That didn't used to be the case. In 7th edition a kabalite cost 8 points; a basic marine was 14. Now kabalites cost...drum roll...8 points. The basic space marine now costs 20 (or 18 if you really want to insist the comparison is to a unit that might as well not exist any more for competitive play).
Incubi in 7th cost 20 points a model - more than their space marine equivalent (vets were 18 points a model). They now cost 16 points a model.
DE have become more of a cheap trash faction at the same time that space marines have become hugely more elite than they used to be.
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the_scotsman wrote: [
....fething when, my dude? When was a kabalite not several points cheaper than a marine, an incubi not about the same as a marine, a reaver not a bit more than a marine and a grotesque/clawed fiend/court of the archon member not the rough equivalent of a marine elite? I like painting models, I dont want 16 point kabalites and 30 point incubi. Itd be ridiculously difficult to balance drukhari as a glass cannon faction if there werent more expensive elite infantry running around for them to be able to explode.
See above: in 7th edition. Incubi cost 140% what a marine cost , and kabalites cost 57% what a marine cost; Incubi now cost 80% what a marine costs, while kabalites cost 40%. These are quite huge erosions in value. You're free to say you prefer being a cheap trash faction, but it's inaccurate to act like this is how it's always been.
I think your evaluation scale is wrong. Drukhari aren’t “cheap trash” because their point ratio to Marines has changed. Instead, marines have become more elite. Try comparing your “cheap trash” to non-marines.
Guess it might be time to pull out my gladiators and get them back in shape with the lot that came with Gangs of Commorragh.
I read through it the other day, I don't think it was what was expected, but it did have it's moments. I wish they wouldn't have got rid of the crazy creatures that they had a few iterations back, I still want to put that 3d gladiator pit together with the overhangs, and risers.
Argive wrote: How are clawed fiends? Can you use them in soup?
Im no DE player but ive always like the models and was considering getting some OOP metal ones for paintings
That last sentence makes me wonder if you mean clawed fiends (the big gorilla rat things) or khymarae (the quadrupeds that look more like the old warp beasts from the first codex.)
Both seem good in their own ways. Khymarae are as cheap as wyches, hit about as hard, and don't need a transport to quickly get up the table. If you go second, I could see these guys being good for advance + charging at an enemy unit that wandered onto an objective turn 1. They're a lot like wyches with the movement, strength, and toughness drugs but with one fewer attacks. I like them.
I think of clawed fiends as faster, squishier grotesques. They move faster, can be advance + charged just like khymarae, and have a very similar offensive output to a grotesque. However, they're 25 points per dude with a 5+ save, and they look scary across the table. I feel like it might be difficult to keep them alive long enough to be a good investment.
I only own one clawed fiend, but I've used both fiends and khymarae in the past as mobile screens and easy-to-hide objective achievers. They can't perform most actions, so you probably won't put them directly on an objective, BUT they're fast and small enough to hide on the flanks for Engage on All Fronts or linebreaker or to just sprinkle around the table to screen out deepstrikers. If you want to run larger units and actually do damage with them, the Leadership drug on the beastmaster is a must.
Yeah I meant the clawed fiends Aka big purple gorilla looking things
Probably the only DE models I like. If they were plastic Id have a couple by now but bit of a low priority to hunt down in OOP metal.
alextroy wrote: I think your evaluation scale is wrong. Drukhari aren’t “cheap trash” because their point ratio to Marines has changed. Instead, marines have become more elite. Try comparing your “cheap trash” to non-marines.
Everything in this game is measured relative to marines, they're half of the game and the poster boys for it. But I'm glad we're now all on the same page that relative strength has indeed changed dramatically, that was my main point. If you want me to amend my statement to "Drukhari are only cheap trash compared to the higher profile half of the game" that's no skin off my back.
alextroy wrote: I think your evaluation scale is wrong. Drukhari aren’t “cheap trash” because their point ratio to Marines has changed. Instead, marines have become more elite. Try comparing your “cheap trash” to non-marines.
Everything in this game is measured relative to marines, they're half of the game and the poster boys for it. But I'm glad we're now all on the same page that relative strength has indeed changed dramatically, that was my main point. If you want me to amend my statement to "Drukhari are only cheap trash compared to the higher profile half of the game" that's no skin off my back.
Something that might be worth saying out loud: while it's true that marines still make up half the armies in the game, their recent redesign and changes to their statlines has, I think, pushed them more clearly into the "elite" space that they were always theoretically supposed to fill but haven't in a while. For a long while, we compared everything to the meq statline partly because they were both cheaper and less durable than they probably should have been.
Basically, marines were always sort of marketed as an "elite" army, but they kind of weren't. So we compared things like fire warriors and guardsmen to them. Now, we should probably think of them as being more like... a half-step towards being custodes. They're more durable and less numerous, and it's okay that each marine can reliably beat up several of my kabalites.
alextroy wrote: I think your evaluation scale is wrong. Drukhari aren’t “cheap trash” because their point ratio to Marines has changed. Instead, marines have become more elite. Try comparing your “cheap trash” to non-marines.
Everything in this game is measured relative to marines, they're half of the game and the poster boys for it. But I'm glad we're now all on the same page that relative strength has indeed changed dramatically, that was my main point. If you want me to amend my statement to "Drukhari are only cheap trash compared to the higher profile half of the game" that's no skin off my back.
Define "cheap trash". Incubi will absolutely shred loyalist infantry, including "elites", point for point. And Hellions will mulch MEQ, for less PPM. Neither will be able to absorb as much punishment themselves, but that's the definition of "glass cannon". And why are you comparing points from an edition that never saw a balance pass and is generally regarded as an unbalanced mess?
Incubi are Drukhari's elite infantry, and they're 16 points a model. That's cheap trash. It's very good cheap trash, but it's definitely cheap trash in a game where the game-defining elite infantry models are space marines that run in the 35ish point range, more than double what an incubi costs.
When I say "cheap trash" I don't mean bad, I mean cheap, efficient models that don't stand a chance model for model but are effective because they're pointed low enough that you can throw them into stuff and you don't really care if they're killed in large numbers because everything in your army is similarly expendable cheap trash. Almost everything in Drukhari fits this bill. Incubi certainly do; they're the Drukhari version of Repentia, the gold standard in cheap trash melee hammers.
As much as one would like for space marines to go back to what they were the reality is that GW has decided that they don't want any kind of marine to be that weak anymore.
Marines are a pure elite faction and their elites are elite++ (And I'm talking all kind of marines here, both loyalist and heretic). Theres just no other faction that can thematically compare with them with the exception of Custodes in GW new paradigma.
We could arguee if it is possitive for a game system to have their most "vanilla" and "iconic" faction be an very elite one instead of sitting on the middle as Marines were before, or if Xenos should have their own elite factions (I think the elite xenos should be necrons, and for the most part they made it with the exception of their elites vs marine elites. A Lychguard has nothing to envy to a bladeguard veteran but stuff like terminators with TH/HH are just another beast alltogether). But TBH the same happened in Fantasy: As much as people talked about the empire, the "marines" of fantasy where chaos warriors and high elves, two extremely elite armies with a ton of special rules to ignore (specially high elves) most stuff others had to deal with.
Watched a competitive game yesterday.
Man, Drukhari are beatiful on the table now. Fast, tricky and lethal.
They attack you from any angle and there are no 2 similar threats. They really nailed the freak show theme, and they nailed it on the competitive version of the list!
yukishiro1 wrote: Incubi are Drukhari's elite infantry, and they're 16 points a model. That's cheap trash. It's very good cheap trash, but it's definitely cheap trash in a game where the game-defining elite infantry models are space marines that run in the 35ish point range, more than double what an incubi costs.
When I say "cheap trash" I don't mean bad, I mean cheap, efficient models that don't stand a chance model for model but are effective because they're pointed low enough that you can throw them into stuff and you don't really care if they're killed in large numbers because everything in your army is similarly expendable cheap trash. Almost everything in Drukhari fits this bill. Incubi certainly do; they're the Drukhari version of Repentia, the gold standard in cheap trash melee hammers.
Perhaps you shouldn't use the word "trash" then. I can see where people may make assumptions about what you mean based on...the word you use.
....bonus points if you do stimulant innovaters for your second trait so you have the double wych cult meme build. Quadro-drugs!
Yeah for a possible 2 attack combat drugs and the boost them with 2 CP so you net yet another 2 attacks per guy. Starts with maybe 4 each but can get at least 8 per guy pretty easily like this. Still hits on 2s and wounds with ap-4 total on 5 or 6.
yukishiro1 wrote: Incubi are Drukhari's elite infantry, and they're 16 points a model. That's cheap trash. It's very good cheap trash, but it's definitely cheap trash in a game where the game-defining elite infantry models are space marines that run in the 35ish point range, more than double what an incubi costs.
When I say "cheap trash" I don't mean bad, I mean cheap, efficient models that don't stand a chance model for model but are effective because they're pointed low enough that you can throw them into stuff and you don't really care if they're killed in large numbers because everything in your army is similarly expendable cheap trash. Almost everything in Drukhari fits this bill. Incubi certainly do; they're the Drukhari version of Repentia, the gold standard in cheap trash melee hammers.
Perhaps you shouldn't use the word "trash" then. I can see where people may make assumptions about what you mean based on...the word you use.
He's doing that on purpose, obviously.
You notice that he listed the point cost for incubi, but omitted the fact that in 7th terminators, the marine elite equivalent, were like 35pts minimum? And also that incubi were absolute unusable overpriced garbage in 7th?
Naw, I'm good, I don't need to have my list building decisions boiled down to toddler level like space marines, who used to be able to field lists that looked like actual coherent military formations with infantry and tanks and transports, but now their models cost so many points they can only field a small pile of dudes fighting on top of a hill like in the old codex cover art. If every elite is 30-35 points, you get like 3 of them in your whole army. Grotesques can hang out at that level, but everything else elite being 15-25 is a much better spot for creating actually interesting 2k lists.
I was salty about marines when a unit with a 30" range gun could handily beat various pure melee-only elite units. if they buff those elite units - like Hellions, Wyches, Incubi, Succubi - so that they can kill those shooting-focused marines in melee, where they should be winning because they're armed only with melee weapons, I'm fine with that. I don't need or want W3 T5 basic eldar that cost 45ppm so I can fill out my HQ and min troops and find out I'm 1000 points done with my 2k point list.
....bonus points if you do stimulant innovaters for your second trait so you have the double wych cult meme build. Quadro-drugs!
Yeah for a possible 2 attack combat drugs and the boost them with 2 CP so you net yet another 2 attacks per guy. Starts with maybe 4 each but can get at least 8 per guy pretty easily like this. Still hits on 2s and wounds with ap-4 total on 5 or 6.
be a man, roll your drugs randomly for every single unit. And also take the stimm addict warlord trait on your succubus for 2 more. roll up to the table with your fething excel spreadsheet and bring enough models that something in your army rolls the all-attacks Fun Yahtzee.
It undoubtedly is moving into a meme, and I can't believe any one-unit spam is the best way to run DE (or any faction) - but I do think you could throw down 100+ wyches and a lot of lists would struggle for what to do with them.
Getting 4 or 5 attacks from a 10 point model is silly. Especially at S4, with AP-1(-2 on 6s). Coupled with M8" with advance and charge and a 4++ in combat? Its becoming quite insane.
Tyel wrote: It undoubtedly is moving into a meme, and I can't believe any one-unit spam is the best way to run DE (or any faction) - but I do think you could throw down 100+ wyches and a lot of lists would struggle for what to do with them.
Getting 4 or 5 attacks from a 10 point model is silly. Especially at S4, with AP-1(-2 on 6s). Coupled with M8" with advance and charge and a 4++ in combat? Its becoming quite insane.
I mean, I doubt theyd be that tough to deal with. Basically anything at range butchers them and in melee they bounce off anything elite. They're good, but you need to deploy and support them properly or you're just playing "orks but bad."
Foot harlequins arent viable, and harlequins are 4++ all THE time and -1 to wound and your guns count as 6" further away.
Honestly, with a couple of exceptions (e.g. the Archon seems purpose-built to be beaten to death by a Canoness), I think DE are in a reasonable place as far as "eliteness" goes.
You could maybe make an argument for Incubi being 2 wounds or something but I think the current version of them is fine.
Given how DE function, I think if a lot of DE units were closer to Marine costs, you'd really struggle to fit much into lists once you account for the cost of transports.
And while most of our stuff is cheap compared to Marines, I think a lot of it is good enough at its specific role to at least feel appropriately elite.
That said, I don't mind our HQs being less tough than Marine ones, but it really does bother me that an Archon struggles to kill even a single Marine per turn in melee, unless you give him very specific warlord traits and such.
Anyway, as far as eliteness goes, I think it will be more interesting to see what happens to craftworld eldar - especially units like Banshees.
Lots of wracks, though, that's a maybe. 8ppm instead of 10ppm, T5 with a readily available buff, 6++ and 5+ FNP. That's a unit that's ready to go do what big hordes in 9th do: Dance the hora in the middle of the board while securing every objective until you finally manage to wipe them out on turn 4 with an untenable points deficit already in place. They don't deal anywhere near the same amount of damage as wyches, but that's not the point of a horde unit.
Wyches aren't a horde unit, they're a fast lockdown unit whose goal is to shoot up turn 1 in a transport behind obscuring cover, hop out turn 2 and advance and charge into some unit of Hellblasters or Eradicators or Obliterators or whatever that will be not quite wiped by their S3 AP-1 knives, not be able to get through their relatively cheap 4++ saves, and then prevented from falling back with their shardnet and impaler.
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vipoid wrote: Honestly, with a couple of exceptions (e.g. the Archon seems purpose-built to be beaten to death by a Canoness), I think DE are in a reasonable place as far as "eliteness" goes.
If a 65pt hq could fight a 60pt hq effortlessly I don't know how great I'd feel about the general balance state of the game. The canoness requires the archon to take 2.5 shadowfield saves per round, and then once the field is popped she deals 4 damage per round to him, the archon reliably takes 2 wounds off the canoness per round. Realistically, the fight will take 3 rounds (barring a lucky roll with a blast pistol or an unlucky roll with the shadowfield early) and either the archon wins with 1 wound left or the canoness wins with 1 wound left.
That would seem to be what some might call "a balanced outcome". Much better than most character duel setups in the game, anyway, which tend to be resolved purely by who got the charge off first.
alextroy wrote: I think your evaluation scale is wrong. Drukhari aren’t “cheap trash” because their point ratio to Marines has changed. Instead, marines have become more elite. Try comparing your “cheap trash” to non-marines.
Everything in this game is measured relative to marines, they're half of the game and the poster boys for it. But I'm glad we're now all on the same page that relative strength has indeed changed dramatically, that was my main point. If you want me to amend my statement to "Drukhari are only cheap trash compared to the higher profile half of the game" that's no skin off my back.
Define "cheap trash". Incubi will absolutely shred loyalist infantry, including "elites", point for point. And Hellions will mulch MEQ, for less PPM. Neither will be able to absorb as much punishment themselves, but that's the definition of "glass cannon". And why are you comparing points from an edition that never saw a balance pass and is generally regarded as an unbalanced mess?
yukishiro1 wrote:Incubi are Drukhari's elite infantry, and they're 16 points a model. That's cheap trash. It's very good cheap trash, but it's definitely cheap trash in a game where the game-defining elite infantry models are space marines that run in the 35ish point range, more than double what an incubi costs.
When I say "cheap trash" I don't mean bad, I mean cheap, efficient models that don't stand a chance model for model but are effective because they're pointed low enough that you can throw them into stuff and you don't really care if they're killed in large numbers because everything in your army is similarly expendable cheap trash. Almost everything in Drukhari fits this bill. Incubi certainly do; they're the Drukhari version of Repentia, the gold standard in cheap trash melee hammers.
I really do not see the disagreement between the parts.
Some years ago, point costs between factions were more aligned, as were their capabilities.
Now, all flavors of eldar are outnumbering marines more heavily than in the past. Some are good for their points, but you need more models on the table than with marines. Something similar happens with guard, they aren't terribly bad in terms of damage per point, but now you need more to be equivalent to marines (though guard has other issues).
Having some equivalence in power between models (not equivalently costed point efficient units, but models) requires that "elite" eldar are costed aprox. like "elite marines", and perform at a similar power level (though it can be in different areas). Right now, we have elite eldar is sort of equivalent to marine trooper.
Some people are fine having every other faction become more "horde-like", others think it does not reflect the fluff well, and finally there are also dollars per point considerations.
That said, I don't mind our HQs being less tough than Marine ones, but it really does bother me that an Archon struggles to kill even a single Marine per turn in melee, unless you give him very specific warlord traits and such.
Based on any non-relic weapon, an Archon does 1.74 wounds to a standard marine in close combat....
Some people are fine having every other faction become more "horde-like", others think it does not reflect the fluff well, and finally there are also dollars per point considerations.
I personally don't really want every elite choice in any of my codexes to be 30-35pts. Marines don't really have any way to actually field a coherent force in a 2k list, they run out of points after the basic troops and a couple elite units.
Spoletta wrote: Which is fine according to the fluff.
You shouldn't deploy full companies of marines at a time.
30-40 marines with a bit of vehicle support are an army. That's fine, especially for an army meant to introduce you to the game.
Sure, it just means they have a lot of toys - the heavy tanks, the auxiliary support units like flyers and anti-aircraft and artillery and such - that are just super super awkward to put on the table.
Every time I see a repulsor across from me, it's almost always the ONLY tank threat in the whole army. so its like "OK, every lascannon and melta goes into that now. Turn 1, poof, pick it up off the table please."
SMs current playstyle in general is ridiculously boring. I 100% do not want it applied to any of the factions I like playing. I want it removed from my Thousand Sons, it sucks that they went from a nice flexible mounted heavy infantry army to a snore-inducing giant blob of power armored dudes that I infiltrate onto the board, roll for turn 1, and if I win it they just shoot 80 bullets and obliterate 33% of the opposing army, who never ever move under any circumstances because to move is to cut my firepower by 75%.
I personally don't really want every elite choice in any of my codexes to be 30-35pts. Marines don't really have any way to actually field a coherent force in a 2k list, they run out of points after the basic troops and a couple elite units.
As you say, it is a matter of preference.
Personally, I also like forces that can have a variety of units. But I would prefer for the eldar to have "some" units that "feel elite" on a model to model basis, compared to marines.
For example, aspect warriors should be, in my eyes, warriors that can compete with elite marines per model.
But hey, that's pure preference.
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Spoletta wrote: Which is fine according to the fluff.
You shouldn't deploy full companies of marines at a time.
30-40 marines with a bit of vehicle support are an army. That's fine, especially for an army meant to introduce you to the game.
And eldar are supposed to be a dying race of super tech advanced alien. Is that properly captured by the rules?
the_scotsman wrote: I mean, I doubt theyd be that tough to deal with. Basically anything at range butchers them and in melee they bounce off anything elite. They're good, but you need to deploy and support them properly or you're just playing "orks but bad."
Foot harlequins arent viable, and harlequins are 4++ all THE time and -1 to wound and your guns count as 6" further away.
Hmmm. This just makes me wonder "has anyone actually tried massed-foot harlequins". (Probably on TTS or something.) I think the problem there is that regular bladequins are quite anaemic - and ones with special weapons can hit hard but are very expensive, so are no longer all that resilient even with -1 to wound and a 4++.
But it does seem to me most people are not filling their lists with low S, low AP weapons.
Its a fair point that wyches will bounce off 1+ saves though. But I think that's really the only issue. Buckets of S5 AP-1 attacks will do a number on most things.
the_scotsman wrote: I mean, I doubt theyd be that tough to deal with. Basically anything at range butchers them and in melee they bounce off anything elite. They're good, but you need to deploy and support them properly or you're just playing "orks but bad."
Foot harlequins arent viable, and harlequins are 4++ all THE time and -1 to wound and your guns count as 6" further away.
Hmmm. This just makes me wonder "has anyone actually tried massed-foot harlequins". (Probably on TTS or something.) I think the problem there is that regular bladequins are quite anaemic - and ones with special weapons can hit hard but are very expensive, so are no longer all that resilient even with -1 to wound and a 4++.
But it does seem to me most people are not filling their lists with low S, low AP weapons.
Its a fair point that wyches will bounce off 1+ saves though. But I think that's really the only issue. Buckets of S5 AP-1 attacks will do a number on most things.
Oh, I do, I love my foot harlequins. But they're in no way a 'tournament quality force" compared to the current vogue of mounted melta-spam clowns.
They're basically a slightly less good version of the meta spoiler ork boyz spam list.
And eldar are supposed to be a dying race of super tech advanced alien. Is that properly captured by the rules?
Eldar as in craftworld eldar, no. Dark Eldar (IMO anyway) are incredibly well-represented in these rules: because they're NOT a dying race and their super-tech is purpose-built to be cruel, unfair, and vicious.
Any time I decide not to fight a hyper-elite unit and instead scare them to death with the mortal wounds inflicted by phantasm grenade launchers, any time my wyches encircle a shooting unit and hold them hostage in my opponent's shooting phase before finishing them off in their fight phase, any time my Dark Creed and Poisoned Tongue units cause a unit to flee from a failed morale test on a 3+ and score me a ton of secondary victory points, any time my archon passes the saves from some pumped-up HQ with -5 AP and damage 4 without a single scratch and then fights twice to eviscerate him, that's my drukhari performing EXACTLY as I want them to.
The fact that there's a downside to it - that my archon might roll a 1 and get flattened, or my wyches will get annihilated by shooting if I leave them out in the open, or whatever, that's fine. If I had all the crazy power and damage with none of the risk, it wouldn't feel like dark eldar are supposed to feel anyway. They're supposed to fight and die on a razor's edge, because they're not 'oh there's none of them left, if any of them die its an immeasurable tragedy and they have to hold sixteen funerals where a hundred dark eldar weep for weeks on ends and scatter rose petals over the dearly beloved departed..." they're dark eldar, they laugh at the unfortunate fools who were slow and got themselves slaughtered, and they charge in after to demonstrate their superiority and value to their employer.
I like to think that makes them more fun to play against as well. They're what a villain is supposed to be - they have moments where they feel unstoppable and invincible, so when you do beat them it feels like an actual achievement.
FWIW I find it hard not to think the codex lets DE "play like DE should". But then to my mind DE never even had that 2nd edition "Eldar are really elite yo" gloss. By comparison to Marines they were a quasi-horde faction from the start.
I will however observe that often this is just a function of power - because playing like you should and falling on your face never "feels" right. This book is incredibly powerful. Almost every unit feels as though it was pointed aggressively. Which is good - because like say DG, you can look at almost any combo and think "...maybe it would work?"
I think the gap between the haves and have nots has however been significantly widened with this codex. How on earth Tau are meant to stand up to this is anyone's guess. I guess that gives me another year to finally paint mine up though. (Was meant to be the lockdown winter project, but... got distracted.)
Eldar as in craftworld eldar, no. Dark Eldar (IMO anyway) are incredibly well-represented in these rules: because they're NOT a dying race and their super-tech is purpose-built to be cruel, unfair, and vicious. They're what a
That was a very nice response. I am inclined to agree with you.
I also think Eldar are not well represented, I am more on the fence with Dark Eldar. They do seem killy now, I guess we'll have to wait a bit to see how hold up in practice.
Tyel wrote: FWIW I find it hard not to think the codex lets DE "play like DE should". But then to my mind DE never even had that 2nd edition "Eldar are really elite yo" gloss. By comparison to Marines they were a quasi-horde faction from the start.
I will however observe that often this is just a function of power - because playing like you should and falling on your face never "feels" right. This book is incredibly powerful. Almost every unit feels as though it was pointed aggressively. Which is good - because like say DG, you can look at almost any combo and think "...maybe it would work?"
I think the gap between the haves and have nots has however been significantly widened with this codex. How on earth Tau are meant to stand up to this is anyone's guess. I guess that gives me another year to finally paint mine up though. (Was meant to be the lockdown winter project, but... got distracted.)
Honestly, I haven't played against tau since 9th dropped so maybe this is just me not realizing how fethed they got by the points changes, but it doesn't seem like it would be...thaaat bad, depending on the matchup and the subfaction they go hard on? DE are really allergic to overwatch and invuln saves, which tau tend to have quite a bit of. When you're at a baseline of "if I get something on melee, I kill it super dead" then getting to shoot me hitting on 5s before I charge in, is better than the usual "die before you get to swing" baseline. Tau having S5 on their basic weaponry also actually helps quite a lot against drukhari stuff, they have an unusual amount of T5 running around.
looking at my own miserably underpowered armies, I would be happier taking on drukhari with my GSC than I would be space marines. No 12" range anti-fun aura on a basic troop/hq unit, no "I get to shoot you when you show up" stratagem, the worst thing about the matchup is just that mining lasers are the only good GSC antitank weapon and boy howdy are drukahri vehicles good against mining lasers. For the most part, GSC against drukhari would be an exercise in stuff charging stuff, and the stuff that gets charged just explodes spectacularly.
I don't know, all this is entirely theoretical in my head, it's tough to imagine any kind of matchup where the person opposing me is playing anything but space marines.Something non-imperial? Utterly inconceivable.
I guess I just look at say GSC and think "how is anything in this roster as good as anything in Codex DE." (Tbf they don't have Ridgerunners....)
I just don't think Tau overwatch will contribute that much. Send some raiders in to eat it on big things like Riptides. Then just charge into anything else. Stuff will die - but by and large you are still going to annihilate anything you touch because compared to modern armies Tau are fragile for their points. Despite some hype for the Montka change facilitating some more movement - I don't think its helping much if at all.
I think for example Serpent's Tongue Kabalites outshoot Fire Warriors now although its a bit debatable on buffs, higher range versus higher movement. People laughed at Kabalites getting that extra attack - but, even though you probably don't expect to ever use it - it results in them being about 4.5~ times as effective as Fire Warriors in assault for the points. (I'm not saying you'll spam kabalites any more than Tau spam fire warriors - but its just comparing one situation to another).
Both urgently need a new book, but it doesn't seem any time soon. Can't wait for Ad Mech to be even more broken.
The biggest problem with Tau is that you lack the mobility and the firepower.
Theres some Adeptus Mechanicus competitive lists that can win matches because their firepower is so obscene and their units so fast they can obliterate you out of all objetives turn 1 and be scoring in turn 2.
Tau lack that. Yeah they can maybe shoot you out of the objetives by turn 2-3 but at that point they have allready lost. Deep Striking firepower is useless. You enter turn 2, kill whatever is on the objetives, move in the objetive turn 3, and you make points un turn 4.
And with the nerfs to fly you cannot engage with your suits or they become instantly useless units that work agaisnt you, protecting the enemy. And I was playing Breacher mechanized tau with 30-40 kroots, piranhas and stealth suits before in 8th, I don't even own riptides. But is the same, theres just no way to claim objetives and make points.
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to GSC- their Crusade stuff is going to be sweet.
As for when, that is hard to say. GW seems to be getting back to a weekly release cycle, so we could be seeing two dexes a month from here on in if we're lucky.
Admech is up next; that leaves only the Knights from Charadon act 1 without a dex.
The next four pack should be Orks, Sisters, Daemons and maybe CSM. I think these will be the Charadon Act 2 armies.
No ideas about Chardon 3 or 4 yet- assuming there are even four parts; maybe Q3 and Q4 will be a different campaign altogether. I think the Broken Realms campaign cycle is five books? I figured it would make the most sense to do it quarterly...
Still lots of speculation. I'm not really familiar with Tau, so I'm not really sure who they'd come up against. In PA, they put them with GSC, so that could be a match up. It would be interesting if the Uprising brought the Hive Fleet into the campaign. It would be cool to get a unit or two that were a bridge between GSC and Nids- sort of like metamorphs, but maybe at a different scale?
PenitentJake wrote: Every dex this ed has upped the game. I think when Tau and Eldar get their turn, it will work out.
Yep lets talk again in 2023... XD
All of the dexes will be out by June of next year at the latest. If we do step back up to two/ month, they'll all be out by the end of this year.
We are in april already
By my estimates there are 13 armies(see below) waiting for updates,12 if you consider ad mech potentialy getting dropped in april, however with covid and delays etc that have been prevalent they would have to stick to a strict 1 codex a month I just dont see it happening. Also It would not surprise me if we see another SM codex/ Moar supplements before the year is out. Because GW...
GK CWE Harlies
Chaos Demons
AD mech
GSC Tyranids
SOB
CSM TS IG IK
CK
PenitentJake wrote: Every dex this ed has upped the game. I think when Tau and Eldar get their turn, it will work out.
Yep lets talk again in 2023... XD
All of the dexes will be out by June of next year at the latest. If we do step back up to two/ month, they'll all be out by the end of this year.
We are in april already
By my estimates there are 13 armies(see below) waiting for updates,12 if you consider ad mech potentialy getting dropped in april, however with covid and delays etc that have been prevalent they would have to stick to a strict 1 codex a month I just dont see it happening. Also It would not surprise me if we see another SM codex/ Moar supplements before the year is out. Because GW...
GK CWE Harlies
Chaos Demons
AD mech
GSC Tyranids
SOB
CSM TS IG IK
CK
Have I forgotten any?
It's doable. Just depends on COVID. Also whether or not we see EC and/or WE could up the count a bit as well as other new codexes.
Its going to be late 2022 at the absolute best then for everyone to have a codex.. But honestly I dont think they will keep it up at 1 dex a month. They going to wana sell us those campaign books etc
Argive wrote: Its going to be late 2022 at the absolute best then for everyone to have a codex.. But honestly I dont think they will keep it up at 1 dex a month. They going to wana sell us those campaign books etc
Well, they found their magic with adding supplements in campaigns so they'll happily fling codexes and campaigns at us. I'd bet June will be Charadon #2 and three or four more - Orks, CSM, and Sisters perhaps. Knights will drop in before then, I think.
Next June is dubious (even if everything went back to 2019 normal today), this year is right out.
Uh... There are nine months left this year; if we went to 2019 standards, that's 18 dexes this year.
That wasn't what I meant- just bringing production back up to speed is going to be a challenge. 2 per month (along with everything else) just isn't happening.
June of next year is 15 months away- even at one per month, we'll hit that.
And? One a month would be a struggle for them (and world conditions), hence 'dubious.' There is a lot of AoS on the schedule, 'campaign' books for both systems.
Ad Mech is April, and we'll be lucky to have Sisters, Orks and Vampires by this June.
Any bumps, or anything we simply don't know about can twist the schedule. Even positive things: If people are right about AoS 3.0 happening this year, you can write at least one month off this summer.
It's what they can do with the shipping/ manufacturing situation. Since October, there hasn't been a month without a dex or supplement despite the challenges.
Since we're at rock bottom and they are hitting one a month there is Zero reason to suspect we will get less than one per month. So by next June, we will have 15 more dexes. Period.
The comment that I was replying to with all of this timeline stuff suggested that we wouldn't see a Tau dex til 2023. I think there was probably some sarcasm in that estimate, as I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that it will even take until Q4 of 2022 to get the last of the dexes done, even with these delays.
Given that we had the big Charadon/ Drukari drop on the 20th (admittedly light on models), a huge Lumineth drop on the 27th, and Cursed City on the 3rd, I'm guessing Admech for the 10th, Be'Lakor will drop either the 24th or May 1. The 17th will probably be the Vampire Direchasm, so Knights, Sisters or Orks on either the 24th or 1st, depending on which weekend goes to Be'Lakor.
The big May release in 40k may also include Charadon Act 2. I don't think there will be a second Mission Pack for Charadon, but if there is, it would be a Matched Play Pack this time.
It's what they can do with the shipping/ manufacturing situation. Since October, there hasn't been a month without a dex or supplement despite the challenges.
They had to scale back already, no chance it might happen again! History is, of course, completely meaningless. /s
Since we're at rock bottom and they are hitting one a month there is Zero reason to suspect we will get less than one per month. So by next June, we will have 15 more dexes. Period.
We're not at 'rock bottom.' We're at 'stressed infrastructure' and 'easing restrictions when it can get worse.'
And, again, you're ignoring everything else they want to release.
You're optimism is wearying. Especially since when it doesn't happen, its going to be accompanied by cries of 'GW promised!' when they didn't.
All we know for sure is Ad Mech is next month, and Sisters and Orks are coming (with fairly significant releases, which you've previously denied would happen) in a vaguely 3 month time frame. GW hasn't committed to anything beyond that.
I'm also going to quibble here; did GW ever maintain 2 codexes a month for an entire year? You keep alluding to that, Jake, but IIRC they did that for several months in a row and then ran out of gas. I don't think it's crazy to expect a flurry of releases from GW, that's certainly their MO. But I don't know that we've seen a sustained flow like you allege. There's just not a lot of reason to expect things to go faster than they did in 8th (given index -> codex was a bigger transition than codex 1 -> codex 2, even if it doesn't feel that way sometimes.)
Gene St. Ealer wrote: I'm also going to quibble here; did GW ever maintain 2 codexes a month for an entire year? You keep alluding to that, Jake, but IIRC they did that for several months in a row and then ran out of gas. I don't think it's crazy to expect a flurry of releases from GW, that's certainly their MO. But I don't know that we've seen a sustained flow like you allege. There's just not a lot of reason to expect things to go faster than they did in 8th (given index -> codex was a bigger transition than codex 1 -> codex 2, even if it doesn't feel that way sometimes.)
Not codexes, no. With other books - campaigns and such - the numbers creeps up. They definitely pushed out a lot of books pretty quickly though ( relative to GW of yore ).
2 codexes a month is actually massive and I don't expect this to be the releasing rate forever; I'd settle with 1 codex every 2 or even 3 months actually.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: I'm also going to quibble here; did GW ever maintain 2 codexes a month for an entire year? You keep alluding to that, Jake, but IIRC they did that for several months in a row and then ran out of gas. I don't think it's crazy to expect a flurry of releases from GW, that's certainly their MO. But I don't know that we've seen a sustained flow like you allege. There's just not a lot of reason to expect things to go faster than they did in 8th (given index -> codex was a bigger transition than codex 1 -> codex 2, even if it doesn't feel that way sometimes.)
Not codexes, no. With other books - campaigns and such - the numbers creeps up. They definitely pushed out a lot of books pretty quickly though ( relative to GW of yore ).
Right, but the factor here is they're still doing 'other books' (broken realms, mission packs (crusade and otherwise), Warzone Chacha, etc). So the idea that they'll return to the brief 'codex' flurry of the end-of-2020 (which was actually mostly SM supplements) anytime soon seems unreasonable.
Right, but the factor here is they're still doing 'other books' (broken realms, mission packs (crusade and otherwise), Warzone Chacha, etc). So the idea that they'll return to the brief 'codex' flurry of the end-of-2020 (which was actually mostly SM supplements) anytime soon seems unreasonable.
Charadon seems to have been designed to release in the same window as AM, Knights, and DE. We just see the screwed up release dates. The next Charadon book will likely have 3 or 4 codexes tied in as well that should release in tandem. Then we'll have AoS for a bit and catch whatever comes in the Fall.
Right, but the factor here is they're still doing 'other books' (broken realms, mission packs (crusade and otherwise), Warzone Chacha, etc). So the idea that they'll return to the brief 'codex' flurry of the end-of-2020 (which was actually mostly SM supplements) anytime soon seems unreasonable.
Charadon seems to have been designed to release in the same window as AM, Knights, and DE. We just see the screwed up release dates. The next Charadon book will likely have 3 or 4 codexes tied in as well that should release in tandem. Then we'll have AoS for a bit and catch whatever comes in the Fall.
What are the odds that when/if charadon book bombs (Likely) they will decide that was because they released too much. I.E. People will buy DE book but not both because its clearly just stuff cut from the dex being sold as a 4P add on..
They still invested tp make those books and will need to recoup costs. So my guess is they will force a break from codexes and drop the campaign book so people will buy it as there wont be a codex anounced etc.
Not to mention, they obviously going to do another SM codex and supplement wave
I'm pretty sure the books are just marketing for the models. If there's a decline in plastic shipped GW might think things like Charadon was a failure, if not then it will be considered to have done its job, even if its hard to translate the book itself into direct sales. (Okay if none sell maybe it was a waste of time, but I feel safe in saying that won't happen.)
They had to scale back already, no chance it might happen again! History is, of course, completely meaningless. /s
But what they scaled back too was one per month. That is the scaled back.
They released Crons and Marines in October. They released Wolves and Deathguard in November. Blood Angels came in December; Deathguard got bumped to January. Dark Angels and Drukhari were both scheduled for January; DA got Bumped to February and Drukhari got bumped to March. At no point did we ever drop below one dex per month.
And, again, you're ignoring everything else they want to release.
The post you selectively quoted also referred to the Lumineth release, the Be'Lakor release, the Cursed City release and a Direchasm release. Not ignoring anything my dude.
Really? Is that because you don't want to feel happy, or because you don't want others to feel happy?
The thing about optimism is that it tends to lift people up. And even if for some reason my optimism does get you down, take heart in the fact that optimism is the minority opinion in this forum.
Your wearying pessimism, on the other hand, is damn near omnipresent.
When I maintained we'd get Trueborn and Blood Brides, that didn't happen.
When I maintained they'd fix Drukhari transport capacities, that didn't happen either.
When I asserted after seeing the 9th trailer that sisters would get a second wave, that didn't happen.
And it's also true that holding out for plastic sisters for 15 years was all in vain, as was waiting twenty years for the GSC.
its going to be accompanied by cries of 'GW promised!' when they didn't.
I was pretty POed when 9th was announced; I had expected 8th to be the persistent edition, because it was clear that GW was building the infrastructure to support a persistent edition. When they announced 9th, I went through about two weeks where I was as miserable as the forum zeitgeist tends to be most of the time.
But I think that I'm generally pretty tolerant. If anything, I suspect there are people who think of me as a White Knight.
I frequently engage in speculation, and usually I point it out when I'm doing it. And when my speculation turns out to be incorrect, I generally don't mind, because I'm aware that it was speculation.
All we know for sure is Ad Mech is next month, and Sisters and Orks are coming (with fairly significant releases, which you've previously denied would happen) in a vaguely 3 month time frame. GW hasn't committed to anything beyond that.
Well, you're certainly right about that being all they've committed to; the part about my denial requires context.
I did hypothesize that GW may restrict factions to a single model release with their dex in order to deliver a second wave as part of a campaign. I never denied the models were coming; I was merely pointing out that they aren't guaranteed to drop when their dexes do if GW decides they'd rather release parts of the range in box sets or as part of a campaign cycle. And to be fair, we still don't know if all the models for Sisters and Orks will drop with their dexes, though I must admit I have started to see the likelihood that they will... a revision of my original hypothesis.
All I'm really insisting is that we will likely continue to see a minimum of one codex per month. If we do, all of the dexes should be out by Q4 of 2022. Even if they create new factions; even if they create additional marine supplements, the projected time frame under discussion here is 19-21 months with one book per month.
Beyond that, I am agreeing with you that we will see Ad Mech in April and that we will likely see Sisters and Orks in the 3 month window you've described; I've even modified my original hypothesis to align more with yours, in that I now expect the previewed models to drop with the dexes.
So far, I feel like we're both on the same page, right?
Here's where I diverge:
I believe that it is possible that the Second act of Charadon will drop in Q2. I further believe that it is possible Sisters and Orks will be two of the armies represented in that book. This is speculation, but I believe the likelihood is high- so high that you may even agree this much is probable.
I further believe that Be'Lakor's release makes a good case for Chaos Daemons in Q2. And if so, they are also likely to be the third army in Charadon act 2. This is speculation as well, and while I still believe it is quite likely, it is less likely than my first act of speculation. You're less likely to buy this, and even I will concede that your skepticism has legs here. My only "evidence" is that April's coin is Be'Lakor, the model has been previewed, and 40k rules for the model have been confirmed.
Finally, I'm wildly speculating here- I think the 4rth Charadon army might be CSM. Wild speculation... Based primarily on the fact that they really, really need their dex because of their 1W discrepancy with loyalists, because they're mentioned as being present in the theatre of war in Charadon act 1, and because they're in the stained glass window with the sisters in the Paragon and Castigator preview videos.
As for the pace of the release schedule, I am pretty sure that in October, they talked about a release schedule of 2 dexes per month. They certainly did deliver that in October and November, and it's 100% confirmed that they planned to do it in December and we're also pretty sure it was supposed to happen in January too, though you'd be correct to point out it was never explicitly confirmed. With all of that, I'm certain that 2/ month was the original plan.
I believe that GW probably wants to return to that schedule as quickly as they can- the longer it takes, the further behind we fall. It may not be possible to do this anytime soon, and even if possible, it may not be safe. But we have seen a recent acceleration in the release schedule, with substantial releases for three continuous weeks, after two months of getting a single release every two weeks. I'm not saying that absolutely means that we are going back to 2 dexes per month; I'm saying it's a good sign.
What are the odds that when/if charadon book bombs (Likely) they will decide that was because they released too much. I.E. People will buy DE book but not both because its clearly just stuff cut from the dex being sold as a 4P add on..
They still invested tp make those books and will need to recoup costs. So my guess is they will force a break from codexes and drop the campaign book so people will buy it as there wont be a codex anounced etc.
Not to mention, they obviously going to do another SM codex and supplement wave
All the better reason to not buy this one so they get the hint. I think the cat is out of the bag now, anyway.
Tyel wrote: I'm pretty sure the books are just marketing for the models
is water wet?
This has been the case forever. GW knows that new models will sell MOREif they tantalize you with cool rules for 2 months, then the next hotness...lather, rinse, repeat.
Factor in some mistakes, errors, etc and it begins to look pretty much like how GW works.
Some people care more about the models & lore than the rules(myself included). Others only care for rules, which is fine but then don't complain when your desire to be top dog requires you to pay...and pay...and pay...
I'm just glad the new book allows those who chose to play differently are not punished for doing so.
It's actually given me hope for the other pointy ears...but hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Argive wrote: By my estimates there are 13 armies(see below) waiting for updates,12 if you consider ad mech potentialy getting dropped in april, however with covid and delays etc that have been prevalent they would have to stick to a strict 1 codex a month I just dont see it happening. Also It would not surprise me if we see another SM codex/ Moar supplements before the year is out. Because GW...
GK CWE Harlies
Chaos Demons
AD mech
GSC Tyranids
SOB
CSM TS IG IK
CK
Have I forgotten any?
I think you missed a few. From my reading we need:
Adeptus Mechanicus - April confirmed by GW Imperial Knights - Soon based on Book of Rust
Adepta Sororitas - Soon based on previews
Orks - Soon based on previews
And in the order on the GW store we also need:
Black Templars Supplement
Grey Knights
Adeptus Custodes (with Sisters of Silence?)
Astra Militarum
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Knights
Chaos Space Marines
Thousand Sons
Craftworlds (with Ynnari?)
Genestealer Cults
Harlequins
T'au Empire
Tyranids
So that is 17 codexes without revising the six 8th Edition Space Marine Supplements. Dang, that is a lot of books.
For good or ill, we all know that GW releases codexes around models as opposed to the need for rules. Could be one or two special models made to coincide with the rules (Death Guard, Drukhari) or it could be a major expansion of a model range (Space Marines Mk2 for 8th, Space Marines and Necrons in 9th).
So the question you have to ask yourself is which group do you want your codex release included in?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOOOOOOL Did Jake seriously say, with a straight face, Dark Eldar transport issues were fixed?
Aren't they fixed now? I thought they got the extra space and raiders also got +1T. Already had and kept invuln, decent weapons, mobility and venoms also come with a built-in -1 to hit. The army works without spamming lots of transports. What else do they need?
What I really like about this book is that the faction works very well without spamming anything. It actually encourages to bring a little of eveything which is awesome. I don't even see much power creep in this codex but maybe is too soon to tell.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOOOOOOL Did Jake seriously say, with a straight face, Dark Eldar transport issues were fixed?
Aren't they fixed now? I thought they got the extra space and raiders also got +1T. Already had and kept invuln, decent weapons, mobility and venoms also come with a built-in -1 to hit. The army works without spamming lots of transports. What else do they need?
Do Archons still have to climb out of their transports to motivate the raiders inside of it to shoot better?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOOOOOOL Did Jake seriously say, with a straight face, Dark Eldar transport issues were fixed?
Aren't they fixed now? I thought they got the extra space and raiders also got +1T. Already had and kept invuln, decent weapons, mobility and venoms also come with a built-in -1 to hit. The army works without spamming lots of transports. What else do they need?
Do Archons still have to climb out of their transports to motivate the raiders inside of it to shoot better?
It's more a wish than an issue, every faction has to deal with not being able to buff dudes inside transports.
Would it be cool ? Yes. Is it different than how the game works and thus "broken" (as in "needing a fix") ? No.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOOOOOOL Did Jake seriously say, with a straight face, Dark Eldar transport issues were fixed?
Aren't they fixed now? I thought they got the extra space and raiders also got +1T. Already had and kept invuln, decent weapons, mobility and venoms also come with a built-in -1 to hit. The army works without spamming lots of transports. What else do they need?
Do Archons still have to climb out of their transports to motivate the raiders inside of it to shoot better?
Yes, but to be fair, aside from a fairly specific build they aren't that good at buffing anyway. The issues with our transports IMO are 'mostly' fixed...in any case they are in a better state than I expected.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOOOOOOL Did Jake seriously say, with a straight face, Dark Eldar transport issues were fixed?
Aren't they fixed now? I thought they got the extra space and raiders also got +1T. Already had and kept invuln, decent weapons, mobility and venoms also come with a built-in -1 to hit. The army works without spamming lots of transports. What else do they need?
Do Archons still have to climb out of their transports to motivate the raiders inside of it to shoot better?
Well this is not a drukhari issue, it affects everyone. And now a squad of kabalite warriors can fire at BS2+ and move without penalties which is even better than hitting on 3s with blasters, 4s with the lance if the transport move and get the re-roll of 1s to hit from the Archon.
Blackie wrote: 2 codexes a month is actually massive and I don't expect this to be the releasing rate forever; I'd settle with 1 codex every 2 or even 3 months actually.
Then we are back to the world where armies are not getting a codex every edition. Ask a Dark Eldar player how fun it was to have the same codex for 7 years and 3 editions of the game (3e-5th).
Or Necrons 8 years.
We've been there, it was gak. Lets not go back there.
7-8 years is of course too much, in fact I've asked for 5.
But I've played with an ork codex that was released at the end of 4th edition and was uptaded only when 7th was already in play. I'd go back to that period immediately, regardless of the amount of power creep my army could miss.
Now we also have FAQs and points changes, both released very frequently unlike a decade ago, so rushing for a codex every 2-3 years doesn't really make much sense. Several armies, including my orks, but also Harlequins, Custodes, Adepta Sororitas, etc... are still perfectly fine with an older edition codex. There's really no need of a codex of each army every edition.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: There's some truth to that. Marines can still make a suicide Captain with a Jump Pack and Thunder Hammer if they wanted for example, it's just less efficient of a bomb. GW meanwhile didn't fix the HQs for Dark Eldar AGAIN.
The policy of GW is simple - no model no codex entry.
This particularly concerns Archon w/ jetbike or skyboard.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOOOOOOL Did Jake seriously say, with a straight face, Dark Eldar transport issues were fixed?
Aren't they fixed now? I thought they got the extra space and raiders also got +1T. Already had and kept invuln, decent weapons, mobility and venoms also come with a built-in -1 to hit. The army works without spamming lots of transports. What else do they need?
Do Archons still have to climb out of their transports to motivate the raiders inside of it to shoot better?
I mean no, because that's not what an archon does in a shooting list setup. He either plays it safe and shoots a relic pistol out of the transport with the boys, or he's a murdarchon build with some incubi or sslyth somewhere ready to stab a fool.
An archon in a classic venomspam kabal heavy list setup isn't a buff piece. His dumb little SM captain aura isn't worth building around, but his ability to be a 85pt model that outputs 10 S7 AP-3 D3 attacks with reroll hits and wounds in a single round is.
You're looking at a dude that can obliterate 3x his point value in a single turn without breaking a sweat and then has a PRETTY DECENT chance of surviving to keep murdering things thanks to his 2++ save and going "man, but I do wish his gakky captain aura that works on 3 units in the entire game could project out of the transport he's in."
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: There's some truth to that. Marines can still make a suicide Captain with a Jump Pack and Thunder Hammer if they wanted for example, it's just less efficient of a bomb. GW meanwhile didn't fix the HQs for Dark Eldar AGAIN.
The policy of GW is simple - no model no codex entry.
This particularly concerns Archon w/ jetbike or skyboard.
Yup, I'm surprised Archons and Succubi managed to keep access to Blast Pistols. The poor old Haemonculus lost all gear options
An archon in a classic venomspam kabal heavy list setup isn't a buff piece. His dumb little SM captain aura isn't worth building around, but his ability to be a 85pt model that outputs 10 S7 AP-3 D3 attacks with reroll hits and wounds in a single round is.
Personal experience is that 85 point model is devastating even without the re-rolls. Not sure where the 3 extra attacks or re-rolls came from (or even if my opponent got 100% of the statline correct) but a 7A archon ANNIHILATED a squad of 4 mortifiers that I made the mistake of cheekily consolidating into it after I exploded a transport with flails.
He did his 2 fight phases, killed 2 of them, I took my turn and his shadowfield protected him from the heavy bolters shooting at him, and he killed the last 2 mortifiers before they could even fight.
Learned my lesson. Was expecting like, Blessed Blade Canoness levels of output, not "murder literally everything"!
It is worth it if you are taking lots of Incubi and Drazhar, he gives out (not in RSR but in normal detachments and Raiding force) Re-rolls hits of 1 to all Incubi (Not core).
Over all the Archon is worst than he was in 8th, Huskblades are User str now instead of +1/+2 str (they should be +2 and its User FFS).
Archons IMO are just a tax now unless you have 400pts into Incubi/Draz.
An archon in a classic venomspam kabal heavy list setup isn't a buff piece. His dumb little SM captain aura isn't worth building around, but his ability to be a 85pt model that outputs 10 S7 AP-3 D3 attacks with reroll hits and wounds in a single round is.
Personal experience is that 85 point model is devastating even without the re-rolls. Not sure where the 3 extra attacks or re-rolls came from (or even if my opponent got 100% of the statline correct) but a 7A archon ANNIHILATED a squad of 4 mortifiers that I made the mistake of cheekily consolidating into it after I exploded a transport with flails.
He did his 2 fight phases, killed 2 of them, I took my turn and his shadowfield protected him from the heavy bolters shooting at him, and he killed the last 2 mortifiers before they could even fight.
Learned my lesson. Was expecting like, Blessed Blade Canoness levels of output, not "murder literally everything"!
Oh, no, sorry, I got it wrong, the murdarchon isn't 10 attacks, he's FOURTEEN. 14 S4 AP-3 D3 attacks with reroll all hits and wounds for 85pts - absolutely bananas.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amishprn86 wrote: It is worth it if you are taking lots of Incubi and Drazhar, he gives out (not in RSR but in normal detachments and Raiding force) Re-rolls hits of 1 to all Incubi (Not core).
Over all the Archon is worst than he was in 8th, Huskblades are User str now instead of +1/+2 str (they should be +2 and its User FFS).
Archons IMO are just a tax now unless you have 400pts into Incubi/Draz.
I'm really not seeing it. He seems bananas just on his own, he's got a default warlord trait/relic now so he's for sure much more one-note than before, but that one note is LOUD AS feth.
Does anyone know what the model is on page 87 of the codex, top photograph, riding on the Razorwing Jetfighter? On closer inspection, the Razorwing looks like it has a weird 'turret' on the top too
the_scotsman wrote: but I do wish his gakky captain aura that works on 3 units in the entire game could project out of the transport he's in."
Thank you. I found the qualifier for fixing DE transports hinging on that tiny buff to be...I dunno...petty? Maybe that's the wrong word. Not intending to insult anyone with the phrasing though.
An archon in a classic venomspam kabal heavy list setup isn't a buff piece. His dumb little SM captain aura isn't worth building around, but his ability to be a 85pt model that outputs 10 S7 AP-3 D3 attacks with reroll hits and wounds in a single round is.
Personal experience is that 85 point model is devastating even without the re-rolls. Not sure where the 3 extra attacks or re-rolls came from (or even if my opponent got 100% of the statline correct) but a 7A archon ANNIHILATED a squad of 4 mortifiers that I made the mistake of cheekily consolidating into it after I exploded a transport with flails.
He did his 2 fight phases, killed 2 of them, I took my turn and his shadowfield protected him from the heavy bolters shooting at him, and he killed the last 2 mortifiers before they could even fight.
Learned my lesson. Was expecting like, Blessed Blade Canoness levels of output, not "murder literally everything"!
Oh, no, sorry, I got it wrong, the murdarchon isn't 10 attacks, he's FOURTEEN. 14 S4 AP-3 D3 attacks with reroll all hits and wounds for 85pts - absolutely bananas.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amishprn86 wrote: It is worth it if you are taking lots of Incubi and Drazhar, he gives out (not in RSR but in normal detachments and Raiding force) Re-rolls hits of 1 to all Incubi (Not core).
Over all the Archon is worst than he was in 8th, Huskblades are User str now instead of +1/+2 str (they should be +2 and its User FFS).
Archons IMO are just a tax now unless you have 400pts into Incubi/Draz.
I'm really not seeing it. He seems bananas just on his own, he's got a default warlord trait/relic now so he's for sure much more one-note than before, but that one note is LOUD AS feth.
More so for Incubi than Drazha. He is mostly a tax though. IMOGW did the Archon wrong. Just saying he can be used as auramancer still to good effect if you wanted to. 13" (6 on each side) can easily get 2+ units within aura range, and with Incubi/Drazhar having a Fight last mechanic now, that could be what you want.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOOOOOOL Did Jake seriously say, with a straight face, Dark Eldar transport issues were fixed?
Aren't they fixed now? I thought they got the extra space and raiders also got +1T. Already had and kept invuln, decent weapons, mobility and venoms also come with a built-in -1 to hit. The army works without spamming lots of transports. What else do they need?
Do Archons still have to climb out of their transports to motivate the raiders inside of it to shoot better?
I mean no, because that's not what an archon does in a shooting list setup. He either plays it safe and shoots a relic pistol out of the transport with the boys, or he's a murdarchon build with some incubi or sslyth somewhere ready to stab a fool.
An archon in a classic venomspam kabal heavy list setup isn't a buff piece. His dumb little SM captain aura isn't worth building around, but his ability to be a 85pt model that outputs 10 S7 AP-3 D3 attacks with reroll hits and wounds in a single round is.
You're looking at a dude that can obliterate 3x his point value in a single turn without breaking a sweat and then has a PRETTY DECENT chance of surviving to keep murdering things thanks to his 2++ save and going "man, but I do wish his gakky captain aura that works on 3 units in the entire game could project out of the transport he's in."
That's just one Archon. You forget about the rest of the list?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOOOOOOL Did Jake seriously say, with a straight face, Dark Eldar transport issues were fixed?
Aren't they fixed now? I thought they got the extra space and raiders also got +1T. Already had and kept invuln, decent weapons, mobility and venoms also come with a built-in -1 to hit. The army works without spamming lots of transports. What else do they need?
Do Archons still have to climb out of their transports to motivate the raiders inside of it to shoot better?
I mean no, because that's not what an archon does in a shooting list setup. He either plays it safe and shoots a relic pistol out of the transport with the boys, or he's a murdarchon build with some incubi or sslyth somewhere ready to stab a fool.
An archon in a classic venomspam kabal heavy list setup isn't a buff piece. His dumb little SM captain aura isn't worth building around, but his ability to be a 85pt model that outputs 10 S7 AP-3 D3 attacks with reroll hits and wounds in a single round is.
You're looking at a dude that can obliterate 3x his point value in a single turn without breaking a sweat and then has a PRETTY DECENT chance of surviving to keep murdering things thanks to his 2++ save and going "man, but I do wish his gakky captain aura that works on 3 units in the entire game could project out of the transport he's in."
That's just one Archon. You forget about the rest of the list?
What drukhari list needs to field more than 1 archon? You playing trip kabal patrols or something?
HQ1 murdarchon
HQ2 Drazar
if you want to make a pure kabal list, there you go, you've got 6 troop slots, 4 elite 4 fast 4 heavy and 4 flyers to play with, and 2 subfaction traits. if you really really must have a third detachment with another archon, make it black heart and give him the writ, but that's mostly only worthwhile if you're playing him in a RSR so he can give reroll 1s to hit and to wound to Scourges/RR1s to hit to Reavers/Taloi/etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: is the archon the best character ever? no, obviously, he's a boring, generic HQ, basically identical to SM captain/Autarch/Canoness/techpriest dominus/overlord/chaos lord/whatever.
but most of those guys don't have the option to pick a particular relic and warlord trait and be able to output 14 S4 AP-3 d3 attacks with rerolls to hit and wound, they just have to stand around next to some shooty thing and go 'reroll your 1s to hit, isn't this fun and great?'
So, was poking around the US online store. Drazhar is currently the only available dark eldar model out of the entire range. Everything else is gone, bar book, dice and cards.
Kind of jaw dropping, even with all the production and shipping issues.
Voss wrote: So, was poking around the US online store. Drazhar is currently the only available dark eldar model out of the entire range. Everything else is gone, bar book, dice and cards.
Kind of jaw dropping, even with all the production and shipping issues.
XeNoS dOnT sElL gW jUsT mAkEs MaRiNeS bEcAuSe XeNoS dOnT sElL
Voss wrote: So, was poking around the US online store. Drazhar is currently the only available dark eldar model out of the entire range. Everything else is gone, bar book, dice and cards.
Kind of jaw dropping, even with all the production and shipping issues.
XeNoS dOnT sElL gW jUsT mAkEs MaRiNeS bEcAuSe XeNoS dOnT sElL
Indeed. They had the same problem with necrons, too. At several points in the lead up to Indomitus/Codex, only Szeras was available. But there was a lot less buzz for DE (and necrons were closer to the factory shutdown period), so I'm surprised.
Curious to see what happens with Ad Mech. They're currently missing a few things (including the Dominus, which is baffling considering how many boxes that kit was stuffed in), but I want to see if the codex launch wrecks the supply like this.
Voss wrote: So, was poking around the US online store. Drazhar is currently the only available dark eldar model out of the entire range. Everything else is gone, bar book, dice and cards.
Kind of jaw dropping, even with all the production and shipping issues.
XeNoS dOnT sElL gW jUsT mAkEs MaRiNeS bEcAuSe XeNoS dOnT sElL
Not that I'm disagreeing with your sentiment, but it's hard to know how much stock they had on hand. Pretty much everything has been selling out. The accountants are probably loving the bare shelves.
Voss wrote: So, was poking around the US online store. Drazhar is currently the only available dark eldar model out of the entire range. Everything else is gone, bar book, dice and cards.
Kind of jaw dropping, even with all the production and shipping issues.
XeNoS dOnT sElL gW jUsT mAkEs MaRiNeS bEcAuSe XeNoS dOnT sElL
Not that I'm disagreeing with your sentiment, but it's hard to know how much stock they had on hand. Pretty much everything has been selling out. The accountants are probably loving the bare shelves.
Or angry that they currently can't sell things. Being 'sold out' is something going wrong, not a win condition for accountants.
The more stuff that's sold out is more sales they're missing out on.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOOOOOOL Did Jake seriously say, with a straight face, Dark Eldar transport issues were fixed?
Aren't they fixed now? I thought they got the extra space and raiders also got +1T. Already had and kept invuln, decent weapons, mobility and venoms also come with a built-in -1 to hit. The army works without spamming lots of transports. What else do they need?
Do Archons still have to climb out of their transports to motivate the raiders inside of it to shoot better?
I mean no, because that's not what an archon does in a shooting list setup. He either plays it safe and shoots a relic pistol out of the transport with the boys, or he's a murdarchon build with some incubi or sslyth somewhere ready to stab a fool.
An archon in a classic venomspam kabal heavy list setup isn't a buff piece. His dumb little SM captain aura isn't worth building around, but his ability to be a 85pt model that outputs 10 S7 AP-3 D3 attacks with reroll hits and wounds in a single round is.
You're looking at a dude that can obliterate 3x his point value in a single turn without breaking a sweat and then has a PRETTY DECENT chance of surviving to keep murdering things thanks to his 2++ save and going "man, but I do wish his gakky captain aura that works on 3 units in the entire game could project out of the transport he's in."
That's just one Archon. You forget about the rest of the list?
What drukhari list needs to field more than 1 archon? You playing trip kabal patrols or something?
HQ1 murdarchon
HQ2 Drazar
if you want to make a pure kabal list, there you go, you've got 6 troop slots, 4 elite 4 fast 4 heavy and 4 flyers to play with, and 2 subfaction traits. if you really really must have a third detachment with another archon, make it black heart and give him the writ, but that's mostly only worthwhile if you're playing him in a RSR so he can give reroll 1s to hit and to wound to Scourges/RR1s to hit to Reavers/Taloi/etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: is the archon the best character ever? no, obviously, he's a boring, generic HQ, basically identical to SM captain/Autarch/Canoness/techpriest dominus/overlord/chaos lord/whatever.
but most of those guys don't have the option to pick a particular relic and warlord trait and be able to output 14 S4 AP-3 d3 attacks with rerolls to hit and wound, they just have to stand around next to some shooty thing and go 'reroll your 1s to hit, isn't this fun and great?'
What Dark Eldar list would run more than one Archon? Maybe the ones that don't want to be forced into running Drazhar? Have some standards for your rules writing, please.
I'm not too interested in Drazhar(don't like the model) so I'm at least one person that runs more than one Archon. but I also mix kabal & cults, so take from that what you will.
Is being "forced" into an option by virtue of rules/costs etc good? Unequivocally, No.
Is having multiple options available that fit varied playstyles at approximate power levels good?
feth YEAH!
The book at least offers variety and seems like it'll be fun to play when I get around to updating my Deldar.
I can easily see 2 archons being competitive.
My initial take was RSR+Pat of Drazhar/Archon, and I'm not really deviating from that if you aren't feeling like a meme-y all in. (Do I want to buy another 40 wracks and somehow harvest liquifier parts from across the internet? Yes and no.)
Double Blackheart Archon - was good before, is still good now. Tbf muse is probably only worth it in RSR because of the core restriction - but there's quite a bit of potential mileage here. Scourge, Mandrakes, Incubi are all solid anyway and with double reroll 1s to wound move up to being incredible. Admittedly you probably want to spread out, but you can sort of contrive it in early turns. Since this archon is just a buff+CP bot, you can throw him next to whatever is key depending on your opponents list/game state.
As previously said, the double attack Djin Blade/Hatred Eternal Archon is solid all the time and utterly ludicrous for one round if he doesn't die.
Going to keep banging the drum for Ancient Evil though because making someone fight last is incredibly powerful, bordering on game breaking in certain matchups. A bit fiddly perhaps because you need to be in engagement range - but still. Tbh this is probably a meta pick on the Djin Blade guy.
(Its a similar argument I think on Vexator Mask, but PoF wouldn't be my go-to Coven obsession. But if you were just bringing a guy+min squad of wracks along to unlock an RSR, it might be a useful piece on the board. But so is the Dark Creed Warlord trait.)
Don't know if you all already noticed but piety and pain is back in stock on the UK store. I just grabbed me a copy as I missed it when it first went up for sale.
I also think that Drazhar con be skipped. He's definitely good but all the 3 basic HQs are much more useful IMHO. And Incubi are killy (and expensive) enough to be competitive without a babysitter.
Back on the subject of how Drukhari stack up vs existing, weaker factions, there's a fantastic batrep from Vanguard Tactics that shows what well-piloted Tau can do to counter the new drukhari stuff.
the_scotsman wrote: Back on the subject of how Drukhari stack up vs existing, weaker factions, there's a fantastic batrep from Vanguard Tactics that shows what well-piloted Tau can do to counter the new drukhari stuff.
I caught a bit of a batrep where Siegler beat Nanavanti's DG with T'au. I wasn't able to watch it all or find a list so I have no idea if it was a Sieglerism or a workable main-stream strategy for T'au.
the_scotsman wrote: Back on the subject of how Drukhari stack up vs existing, weaker factions, there's a fantastic batrep from Vanguard Tactics that shows what well-piloted Tau can do to counter the new drukhari stuff.
I caught a bit of a batrep where Siegler beat Nanavanti's DG with T'au. I wasn't able to watch it all or find a list so I have no idea if it was a Sieglerism or a workable main-stream strategy for T'au.
Without a list I think we just have to assume genius level game play.
harlokin wrote: The unfortunate point of comparison is the Succubus, which is spoilt for choice when it comes to effective and interesting setups.
My favorite is the +3 attack wip relic combined with mortal wounds on 6's to wound equal to your damage.
The other cool thing about the Triptych Whip is that you can chop the hand off a Daemonette chariot pilot for the conversion. She's got one in each hand, so you even get to pick which hand you want the conversion to hold it in; I haven't done this yet because I don't have a chariot to spare, but it will happen eventually.
harlokin wrote: The unfortunate point of comparison is the Succubus, which is spoilt for choice when it comes to effective and interesting setups.
My favorite is the +3 attack wip relic combined with mortal wounds on 6's to wound equal to your damage.
The other cool thing about the Triptych Whip is that you can chop the hand off a Daemonette chariot pilot for the conversion. She's got one in each hand, so you even get to pick which hand you want the conversion to hold it in; I haven't done this yet because I don't have a chariot to spare, but it will happen eventually.
Very little experience playing against the PA tau but the one time I did it was clearly at busted power levels. That Riptide ioncannon is basically a volcano cannon that automatically gets 6 shots. That crisis suit team has a few 2+ saves in it and ignores ap-1 and 2 and is great at killing pretty much anything because of the buff mander. I am not sure about the breechers and devil fish and why they are included there could be some rule I am not familiar with. I assume it wins by picking units off backfield objectives and denying the center - with lots of cheap units to score the freebie action objectives.
Have you seen the Razorflails + Toxin + Competitive Edge one?
Seems like Razorflails ability doubles de attacks from Competitive Edge. In the last Art of War game the Drukhari player attacks Guilliman with 7 attacks, Razorflails double to 14 hit rolls, 3 go through for 6 dmg. Afterwards the 11 failed attacks double again for 22 hit rolls, killing the Primarch.
If thats supposed to be played that way, it’s going to be FAQd for sure.
Have you seen the Razorflails + Toxin + Competitive Edge one?
Seems like Razorflails ability doubles de attacks from Competitive Edge. In the last Art of War game the Drukhari player attacks Guilliman with 7 attacks, Razorflails double to 14 hit rolls, 3 go through for 6 dmg. Afterwards the 11 failed attacks double again for 22 hit rolls, killing the Primarch.
If thats supposed to be played that way, it’s going to be FAQd for sure.
Nah - 60 point models should be killing 380 point ones with relative ease. That is the way it should work
Have you seen the Razorflails + Toxin + Competitive Edge one?
Seems like Razorflails ability doubles de attacks from Competitive Edge. In the last Art of War game the Drukhari player attacks Guilliman with 7 attacks, Razorflails double to 14 hit rolls, 3 go through for 6 dmg. Afterwards the 11 failed attacks double again for 22 hit rolls, killing the Primarch.
If thats supposed to be played that way, it’s going to be FAQd for sure.
It remains to be seen but it does seem to be an unintended rules interaction. Thre is precedent for bonus attack rolls getting doubled/tripled by the weapon ability. Just seems to have been a poorly thought out wl trait.
Have you seen the Razorflails + Toxin + Competitive Edge one?
Seems like Razorflails ability doubles de attacks from Competitive Edge. In the last Art of War game the Drukhari player attacks Guilliman with 7 attacks, Razorflails double to 14 hit rolls, 3 go through for 6 dmg. Afterwards the 11 failed attacks double again for 22 hit rolls, killing the Primarch.
If thats supposed to be played that way, it’s going to be FAQd for sure.
Yep, i'm working on her right now. I have already been playing her with the idea of a FAQ in mind, the 2nd round of attacks don't get the +1atk from Razorflails, so if it is nerf I am use to it already and if it is not then i get a boost.
Elfric wrote: Guys I am seeing the Void Bomber being hyped. I have one. Is one enough or would having 2-3 be too much?
Just be kind to your opponent and let them know to space out 6" between units so you don't wreck them with bombs. ( No opinion on taking multiple though, but it's a huge eff you to the DA unkillable unit and support )
Elfric wrote: Guys I am seeing the Void Bomber being hyped. I have one. Is one enough or would having 2-3 be too much?
The thing with it is, it is a nearly 300 point unit that is EXTREMELY specifically specialized in ruining MEQ armies' days. I usually try not to put more than about that into units that don't really contribute to me winning the game (as fliers have zero board presence) so I would take one, but not two. That's just me tho.
the_scotsman wrote: Back on the subject of how Drukhari stack up vs existing, weaker factions, there's a fantastic batrep from Vanguard Tactics that shows what well-piloted Tau can do to counter the new drukhari stuff.
Hmmm.
FWIW, and assuming its the same battle report, I didn't like the DE player's choices in the early game. Going second is always going to be kind of annoying - especially perhaps on Vital Intelligence when you've taken the mission secondary - but I wasn't really sure what they were trying to do. They seemed very concerned I think about the Tau DSing in - okay - but the result was that their units acted without much support. i.e. "I'll move this up, its now a threat" - Tau player, "then I'll kill it". DE player: okay, send in the next wave.
It might be because you got to see the workings - but it seemed the Tau player was playing 40k at a higher level, but would still have lost if the DE had just tweaked certain things. Despite never really laying a glove on the Tau's core firebase.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOOOOOOL Did Jake seriously say, with a straight face, Dark Eldar transport issues were fixed?
Aren't they fixed now? I thought they got the extra space and raiders also got +1T. Already had and kept invuln, decent weapons, mobility and venoms also come with a built-in -1 to hit. The army works without spamming lots of transports. What else do they need?
Do Archons still have to climb out of their transports to motivate the raiders inside of it to shoot better?
I mean no, because that's not what an archon does in a shooting list setup. He either plays it safe and shoots a relic pistol out of the transport with the boys, or he's a murdarchon build with some incubi or sslyth somewhere ready to stab a fool.
An archon in a classic venomspam kabal heavy list setup isn't a buff piece. His dumb little SM captain aura isn't worth building around, but his ability to be a 85pt model that outputs 10 S7 AP-3 D3 attacks with reroll hits and wounds in a single round is.
You're looking at a dude that can obliterate 3x his point value in a single turn without breaking a sweat and then has a PRETTY DECENT chance of surviving to keep murdering things thanks to his 2++ save and going "man, but I do wish his gakky captain aura that works on 3 units in the entire game could project out of the transport he's in."
Archons could be better or worse in their design. The melee monobuild is a clear winner, but it seems pretty powerful. If you want to field multiple archons (like I do), you can keep them cheap to use them as the guy stuck running around behind the boats to hand out rerolls. Or just give them a relic and/or warlord trait of their own so that they can contribute.
But yeah. I definitely wish they'd done something slightly different with these guys. Bring back some of the cool arcane tech they used to have. Or just open up the armory so they can mix and match gear like they used to. Or just give them a command phase ability that doesn't require everyone to hop out of the raider. The most awkward part is that splinter racks and trueborn give me more reason than ever to want to stay inside my transports where his buffs can't reach them.
