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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
How do!
So we’re officially into the run up to Tau getting their 9th Ed codex.
Couple of bits shown so far, such as improvements to the Pulse Rifle and Carbine.
Today, we’re shown the codex cover art
And we’re promised the mystery model’s full reveal later.
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Post by: Tarara
An absolutely uninspiring cover art if there ever was one.
73007
Post by: Grimskul
They've been doing really solid work for their cover art so far for the codices. I think the only underwhelming one so far was the Custodes one, other than that, glad to hear that its coming soon! Tau have languished near the the bottom for the 40k meta for a while, so it'll be interesting to see how they let them compete for midfield objectives. Also, pretty sure the silhouette is Darkstrider.
113031
Post by: Voss
Tarara wrote:An absolutely uninspiring cover art if there ever was one.
That's pretty on point for 9th. All the codex covers so far have been mediocre to poor to wretched ( BT).
Dudeman standing forth surrounded by vague cronies and increasingly blurry background.
So this is concerning:
Codex: T’au Empire will arrive in early 2022, and with the Genestealer Cults and Adeptus Custodes codexes also landing in the same period, it’s going to be an exciting few months for Warhammer 40,000.
With GSC and Custodes delayed from this year and Tau 'early,' the idea that this is going to keep 40k exciting for 'months' is really ominous. There's a grand total of three models between these three books, unless I missed something, and two are stuck in their versus box for the foreseeable future.
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Post by: Gert
I would assume the "exciting" is code for "here's 3 new Codexes, break them to high heaven for a couple of months, and then we'll make fix it".
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Post by: Dudeface
Voss wrote: Tarara wrote:An absolutely uninspiring cover art if there ever was one.
That's pretty on point for 9th. All the codex covers so far have been mediocre to poor to wretched ( BT).
Dudeman standing forth surrounded by vague cronies and increasingly blurry background.
So this is concerning:
Codex: T’au Empire will arrive in early 2022, and with the Genestealer Cults and Adeptus Custodes codexes also landing in the same period, it’s going to be an exciting few months for Warhammer 40,000.
With GSC and Custodes delayed from this year and Tau 'early,' the idea that this is going to keep 40k exciting for 'months' is really ominous. There's a grand total of three models between these three books, unless I missed something, and two are stuck in their versus box for the foreseeable future.
For those owning any of those factions it'll be a good couple of months of playing new rules, for a lot of people it'll just be window shopping at the competitive meta shifting likely. Either way for a lot of people there is a couple of months excitement, but currently no army is on paper to have been previewed with big releases in the first few months and whilst Eldar/Chaos are getting previews I'd be amazed if they were released alongside 3 other books in a 3 month window. But likewise next to nothing big has been shown for Sigmar nor LotR. Maybe fart out the Heresy stuff early in the year whilst they do a round of "you get a book and 1 model" releases maybe?
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
Better uninspiring than abominable like the BT one.
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Post by: jaredb
I am just loving the codex cover art this edition!
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Wonderfully restrained model. Definitely getting a sense of stealth from it, Automatically Appended Next Post: Single not cloven hooves though.
123233
Post by: GaroRobe
They're cloven. Just a weird angle, but the video confirms it
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Post by: BertBert
Not half bad, but I'd probably stick a Helmet on that dude.
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Post by: His Master's Voice
Sub-commander El’Myamoto?
Really now?
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Post by: BertBert
That is hilarious.
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Post by: Kanluwen
It's been his name since introduced...
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Post by: Gert
He has little drone friends. I don't even play T'au and I want those drones
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Post by: KidCthulhu
Those little drones are too cute. I would actually buy this guy to paint for fun:
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Post by: GaroRobe
Given that they just released THE pathfinder, the kit really should have been given more than just an upgrade sprue. It's not uncommon for decent plastic kits to get an update (stormcast and space marine players can attest) and compared to this taller model, they all look so squat. Tiny stubby legs
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
They remind of the ones Seventh Sister uses in Rebels.
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Post by: Theophony
paint him all stealth like....except I'll paint his hair scrunchies in day glow neons
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Post by: Grimtuff
Good luck transporting that mini. Looks like those Drones will break off in a stiff breeze.
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Post by: Ordana
Grimskul wrote:They've been doing really solid work for their cover art so far for the codices. I think the only underwhelming one so far was the Custodes one, other than that, glad to hear that its coming soon! Tau have languished near the the bottom for the 40k meta for a while, so it'll be interesting to see how they let them compete for midfield objectives. Also, pretty sure the silhouette is Darkstrider.
I don't see how they could possible get Tau to compete for midfield objectives without new units to fill that role and we're not getting those.
And yes Darkstrider looks nice but I worry about those drones snapping off way to easily.
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Post by: Grimskul
Ordana wrote: Grimskul wrote:They've been doing really solid work for their cover art so far for the codices. I think the only underwhelming one so far was the Custodes one, other than that, glad to hear that its coming soon! Tau have languished near the the bottom for the 40k meta for a while, so it'll be interesting to see how they let them compete for midfield objectives. Also, pretty sure the silhouette is Darkstrider.
I don't see how they could possible get Tau to compete for midfield objectives without new units to fill that role and we're not getting those.
And yes Darkstrider looks nice but I worry about those drones snapping off way to easily.
I feel like they're doing something more with Kroot (at the very least some type of Kommando style pre-game deployment ability to squat on objectives) or maybe with battlesuits that let's them move in the assault phase so they can move onto objectives after blasting people in the face. It's also possible that they basically let battlesuits shoot into combat similar to vehicles.
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
T'au just need durable, melee infantry with ObSec to compete, no way around it.
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Post by: Dudeface
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:T'au just need durable, melee infantry with ObSec to compete, no way around it.
Disagree, that's the one intentional gap in their range, they compensate using tactics and science. That's what needs to be better represented, not just shoehorn in some borderline compulsory unit whilst stripping some of their identity as a faction
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Post by: Tawnis
Grimskul wrote:
I feel like they're doing something more with Kroot (at the very least some type of Kommando style pre-game deployment ability to squat on objectives)
The Carnivores already have their 7" pre-game move, the Hounds can move 12" and the Krootox auto advance 6", so they're actually really solid for mobility ATM. That being said, the Shaper REALLY needs to get the pre-game move buff as well to keep up with them and Hidden Hunters needs to be fixed so they have at least one viable defensive strat.
What they really need is some kind of detachment specials for taking all Kroot since they don't (and likely still won't) gain Sept benefits. Also, if they aren't given <Core> (which is very likely) they'll need something to help counteract their bad Ld and Sv since they Ethereal likely won't be able to do it anymore. Given that there are no "new" models coming out, it seems like there isn't a lot that could be done on the Kroot side, however, I think they could still surprise is with the little bit of space that they have. Here are a few ideas, though sadly I don't think they are terribly likely:
1. Bring back the Knarlocs: FW made these before, it's not strange to think they could bring this line back. Even if it's not in plastic, just having them available to purchase and no longer being Legendary would be huge. If they stay roughly as strong as they are now, the Knarloc riders are a solid melee option and they Greater Knarloc is very strong for it's points cost (currently 65, probably worth at least 75-80). I don't think Tau themselves should have much melee, but the Kroot can and should fill that role for them.
2. Kroot HQ: Make Shapers HQ units, OR even better, make a "new" unit that uses the same basic profile as the Shaper with some stat/ability changes to be an HQ unit. No new model needed, though GW could do that and also milk this with a limited edition promo model; they love that kind of thing, and for something like this, yeah I'd buy it.
3. Improve Kroot utility: Fix the wording on the Hidden Hunters stratagem to make it good. If we get a new HQ, some kind of new buff from them. Add a few new stratagems, at least one melee focused one for Carnivores. Make a "Sept" for the Kroot that doesn't effect Tau units just like the Septs don't effect Kroot.
3.5 Food Buffs: Each Kroot unit can select a pregame buff based on the food they most commonly consume and are "Shaping" into. This could be done for "free" buy giving them a general points hike, or better yet, keep the points low and make these optional for point increases. Since GW like's their D6's for randomization, I'll list 6 potential options. 1) Psyker Powers: The unit can manifest / deny 1. It knows Smite and a custom Kroot one, likely a stealthy/defense buff (though I would love a whole Kroot Psychic table). 2) Ork Ferocity: +1 A and +1 Advance/Charge. 3) Astartes Resilience: +1 T, 6+ FNP. 4) Human Tenacity: +1 Ld, +1 BS if remained stationary? 5) Eldar Alacrity: +1 M, +1 WS. 6) Beastial Nature: +1M, +1 S, +1 T, +1 A, +1 W. This unit must always move at maximum speed to the nearest enemy and must attempt to charge it if possible. This unit may not shoot. (Okay that last one was a stretch XD)
Lore wise, Kroot don't feed on Tau, Necrons (they only made that mistake once), Tyranids, or Chaos.
4. Krootsade Support: Kind of like what I said in 3.5, there is so much potential customizability with the Kroot and if we get it nowhere else, we should at least get it in Crusade.
On a note surprisingly unrelated to Kroot, they did low key mention that Pulse Blasters were also getting an upgrade to go along the trend with the other pulse weapons.
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Post by: The Power Cosmic
Those baby drones are ADORABLE! I love them.
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Post by: warboss
The cover is ok and I don't have strong feelings on it either way. Personally, I preferred the artist they used back in 6/7th edition iirc.
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Post by: Valkyrie
Everyone seems to be moaning about the codex art, I don't see why. Looks nice, not over the top crap where you can't make anything out.
Darkstrider is nice but pretty annoyed that this is our only release. Compared to all the stuff BT recently got, wouldn't have killed GW to put a bit more effort into Tau.
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Post by: ImAGeek
Voss wrote: Tarara wrote:An absolutely uninspiring cover art if there ever was one.
That's pretty on point for 9th. All the codex covers so far have been mediocre to poor to wretched ( BT).
Dudeman standing forth surrounded by vague cronies and increasingly blurry background.
So this is concerning:
Codex: T’au Empire will arrive in early 2022, and with the Genestealer Cults and Adeptus Custodes codexes also landing in the same period, it’s going to be an exciting few months for Warhammer 40,000.
With GSC and Custodes delayed from this year and Tau 'early,' the idea that this is going to keep 40k exciting for 'months' is really ominous. There's a grand total of three models between these three books, unless I missed something, and two are stuck in their versus box for the foreseeable future.
Some of the 9th covers are pretty meh but they’re all better than the 7th single character ones which were soooo uninspiring, and a couple (AdMech, Genestealer Cults) are some of the best they’ve done, in my opinion.
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Post by: ChiliPowderKeg
Finally, a codex cover that isn't a retooling/recolor of the 6th ed codex art.
Darkstrider's new model looks a lot better than the old one.
Looking forward to seeing how they handled it this time since it looks like they restrained themselves this time and didn't add any new units to clutter the roster.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Valkyrie wrote:Everyone seems to be moaning about the codex art, I don't see why. Looks nice, not over the top crap where you can't make anything out.
Darkstrider is nice but pretty annoyed that this is our only release. Compared to all the stuff BT recently got, wouldn't have killed GW to put a bit more effort into Tau.
There's not a whole lot of stuff missing for Tau.
Also, there have long been rumors of a big "Kroot Wave" coming. There's new Kroot art in the KT books and I wouldn't be shocked to see Kroot get a big update via KT and a follow-on filler wave/themed box.
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Post by: Twilight Pathways
ImAGeek wrote:
Some of the 9th covers are pretty meh but they’re all better than the 7th single character ones which were soooo uninspiring, and a couple (AdMech, Genestealer Cults) are some of the best they’ve done, in my opinion.
Thousand Sons, Ad Mech, and GSC codex covers are all beautiful pieces of art in their own right imo. The rest are fairly perfunctory done in their clean new style. I'd rate this one as one of the better ones in that style, quite inspiring and with a nice colour palette. Custodes is the worst and blandest regular one, although the absolute worst has to be the limited edition 'squighog' Ork one
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
Dudeface wrote: Wha-Mu-077 wrote:T'au just need durable, melee infantry with ObSec to compete, no way around it.
Disagree, that's the one intentional gap in their range, they compensate using tactics and science. That's what needs to be better represented, not just shoehorn in some borderline compulsory unit whilst stripping some of their identity as a faction
Aren't they supposed to have their Auxilliaries filling the gaps in their range? GW just seems to have totally forgot T'au Empire is not just the T'au themselves.
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Post by: PondaNagura
The issue I have with that codex art is the soft color sky and lack of crisp edges, like it's a relaxing late afternoon activity than an intense fight for your life situation.
The Darkstrider sculpt looks nice, I thought the wall was going to be a cloak.
Now I'm just waiting for the inevitable jokes about reading a units power level or "is this ____" memes...
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
PondaNagura wrote:The issue I have with that codex art is the soft color sky and lack of crisp edges, like it's a relaxing late afternoon activity than an intense fight for your life situation.
The Darkstrider sculpt looks nice, I thought the wall was going to be a cloak.
Now I'm just waiting for the inevitable jokes about reading a units power level or "is this ____" memes...
The sky's literally red and dense with gunfire
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Post by: Ordana
Grimskul wrote: Ordana wrote: Grimskul wrote:They've been doing really solid work for their cover art so far for the codices. I think the only underwhelming one so far was the Custodes one, other than that, glad to hear that its coming soon! Tau have languished near the the bottom for the 40k meta for a while, so it'll be interesting to see how they let them compete for midfield objectives. Also, pretty sure the silhouette is Darkstrider.
I don't see how they could possible get Tau to compete for midfield objectives without new units to fill that role and we're not getting those.
And yes Darkstrider looks nice but I worry about those drones snapping off way to easily.
I feel like they're doing something more with Kroot (at the very least some type of Kommando style pre-game deployment ability to squat on objectives) or maybe with battlesuits that let's them move in the assault phase so they can move onto objectives after blasting people in the face. It's also possible that they basically let battlesuits shoot into combat similar to vehicles.
Getting to the objective isn't much of an issue imo. Suits are M 8 or more, Kroots pre-move, Stealthsuits infiltrate. Mont'ka to advance everything and still shoot.
The problem is surviving and functioning once your there.
Kroot die to a stiff breeze and their combat is utterly laughable. No one is going to be scared to charge into 10 kroot sitting on an objective and anyone interested in charging them will likely wipe them without breaking a sweat.
A riptide is nice with a 3++ (god if we lose that...) but then you get charged, do nothing in combat and need another Mont'ka to extract a 300 point model from combat.
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Post by: Lord Damocles
It might just be his base, but wow Darkstider looks huge compared to regular Pathfinders...
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Post by: Stormonu
If this is what sort of effort passes for "new releases" for 9th, I'm glad I didn't bother moving on to the new edition.
One $30 retooled character kit and a new book (that's probably 90% recycled) isn't worth the effort.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Stormonu wrote:If this is what sort of effort passes for "new releases" for 9th, I'm glad I didn't bother moving on to the new edition.
One $30 retooled character kit and a new book (that's probably 90% recycled) isn't worth the effort.
Oh bless your little cotton socks.
Guess you missed that Tau have a very up to date line as it is, and that so far Necrons and Orks got pretty extensive range refreshes.
There there, dumpling, there there.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Necrons, Orks, and Sisters of Battle. Tau could have used more plastic, even without dipping into auxiliaries (Farsight, Ethereal on foot, Sniper Drones+Firesight Marksman all immediately spring to mind) ...but knocking a character that exemplifies the concept of the army is way better IMO. Oh! And we can kinda/sorta count Black Templars? They got a good chunk o' stuff.
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Post by: Gert
Excluding Space Marines, a lot of the armies thus far have got a bunch of stuff for updates (Necrons, Orks), are already very recent ranges (SoB, GSC, Custodes, DG, Tsons, Admech), or have fairly solid cores with only some outliers needing to be updated(Druhkari, T'au), the latter two do seem to get a little bit screwed over but overall it's not a huge issue IMO. GK are the one exception thus far because while some of the kits are pretty good (Terminators) and they got a chunk of the regular Marine armoury added this edition, quite a few of their kits are still a blegh.
We know both Craftworlds and CSM are coming next year, with both supposedly getting big releases even though CSM got a big one recently and have been consistently updated since the big 6th revamp. Note this last bit isn't a complaint just something that I found interesting as a CSM player.
We've got Astra Militarum, Tyranids, Daemons, Harlequins, and Chaos/Imperial Knights left unconfirmed. Hopefully, that means that by year 2 of 9th Ed we've got nearly all the Codexes done, which with Covid and Brexit complications is pretty good going IMO.
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Post by: Da Boss
I'd have liked new Vespid, but I'm okay with what I currently have access to. Torn about picking up another SC before they're gone though.
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
Gert wrote:Excluding Space Marines, a lot of the armies thus far have got a bunch of stuff for updates (Necrons, Orks), are already very recent ranges ( SoB, GSC, Custodes, DG, Tsons, Admech), or have fairly solid cores with only some outliers needing to be updated(Druhkari, T'au), the latter two do seem to get a little bit screwed over but overall it's not a huge issue IMO. GK are the one exception thus far because while some of the kits are pretty good (Terminators) and they got a chunk of the regular Marine armoury added this edition, quite a few of their kits are still a blegh.
We know both Craftworlds and CSM are coming next year, with both supposedly getting big releases even though CSM got a big one recently and have been consistently updated since the big 6th revamp. Note this last bit isn't a complaint just something that I found interesting as a CSM player.
We've got Astra Militarum, Tyranids, Daemons, Harlequins, and Chaos/Imperial Knights left unconfirmed. Hopefully, that means that by year 2 of 9th Ed we've got nearly all the Codexes done, which with Covid and Brexit complications is pretty good going IMO.
T'au don't have a fairly solid core.
They're missing a lot of unit archetypes other factions have, and their current setup works both against their lore (where are the Auxilliaries?) and against them on the tabletop, because they can only really participate in two phases out of the entire round, making them either blatantly OP or blatantly awful.
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Post by: ERJAK
Voss wrote: Tarara wrote:An absolutely uninspiring cover art if there ever was one.
That's pretty on point for 9th. All the codex covers so far have been mediocre to poor to wretched ( BT).
Dudeman standing forth surrounded by vague cronies and increasingly blurry background.
So this is concerning:
Codex: T’au Empire will arrive in early 2022, and with the Genestealer Cults and Adeptus Custodes codexes also landing in the same period, it’s going to be an exciting few months for Warhammer 40,000.
With GSC and Custodes delayed from this year and Tau 'early,' the idea that this is going to keep 40k exciting for 'months' is really ominous. There's a grand total of three models between these three books, unless I missed something, and two are stuck in their versus box for the foreseeable future.
3 out of the 4 Sisters codex arts have been fire ngl.
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Post by: Gert
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
T'au don't have a fairly solid core.
They're missing a lot of unit archetypes other factions have, and their current setup works both against their lore (where are the Auxilliaries?) and against them on the tabletop, because they can only really participate in two phases out of the entire round, making them either blatantly OP or blatantly awful.
The vast majority of the T'au range is not only plastic but very recent kits or kits that hold up well despite being old. They have minimal Finecast left over, split between Named Characters and Auxiliaries. It's the exact same with Drukhari. Auxiliaries and the various Named Characters are not the core of the T'au, Fire Warriors, Battlesuits, and skimmers are, all of which are good kits.
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Post by: Da Boss
The plastic kits are all nice. I'd have preferred plastic vespid to the plastic character though, those finecast are both expensive and fugly.
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Post by: Mr_Rose
What’s really needed is a new Suit kit. Like, completely new. Something infantry sized like the old Stealth suits, that use, I dunno, rail rifles as their standard armament but lack the jet pack. Or have jet packs but are equipped with melta, flamer, or twin pulse shotgun. No stealth though.
Basically show them experimenting with the power armour/super-heavy infantry paradigm, after much exposure to it via the imperium/chaos, but still having nothing to do with anything as uncouth as dedicated close combat weapons.
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
Gert wrote: Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
T'au don't have a fairly solid core.
They're missing a lot of unit archetypes other factions have, and their current setup works both against their lore (where are the Auxilliaries?) and against them on the tabletop, because they can only really participate in two phases out of the entire round, making them either blatantly OP or blatantly awful.
The vast majority of the T'au range is not only plastic but very recent kits or kits that hold up well despite being old. They have minimal Finecast left over, split between Named Characters and Auxiliaries. It's the exact same with Drukhari. Auxiliaries and the various Named Characters are not the core of the T'au, Fire Warriors, Battlesuits, and skimmers are, all of which are good kits.
Doesn't change the fact they have very obvious holes that need plugging badly if they're ever supposed to be a normal army.
Like durable melee or anything capable of securing an objectives.
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Post by: Mantle
Lord Damocles wrote:It might just be his base, but wow Darkstider looks huge compared to regular Pathfinders...
Aren't pathfinders young tau from the fire caste? He's a lot older than those he leads so could be the reason he's taller.
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Post by: Theophony
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Gert wrote: Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
T'au don't have a fairly solid core.
They're missing a lot of unit archetypes other factions have, and their current setup works both against their lore (where are the Auxilliaries?) and against them on the tabletop, because they can only really participate in two phases out of the entire round, making them either blatantly OP or blatantly awful.
The vast majority of the T'au range is not only plastic but very recent kits or kits that hold up well despite being old. They have minimal Finecast left over, split between Named Characters and Auxiliaries. It's the exact same with Drukhari. Auxiliaries and the various Named Characters are not the core of the T'au, Fire Warriors, Battlesuits, and skimmers are, all of which are good kits.
Doesn't change the fact they have very obvious holes that need plugging badly if they're ever supposed to be a normal army.
Like durable melee or anything capable of securing an objectives.
Auxillaries are nice, but if they find a suitable alien species that: 1)fits the role 2)has not been wiped out by the Imperium 3)exist in numbers large enough to be used in large scale conflicts across the Tau Empire 4)gives a gak about the greater good. In the lore there just are not too many xenos that fit all those niches. Tau have that big disadvantage to overcome. That's why they are an upstart race, and are becoming a big concern. They are starting to overcome these obstacles, but they still have a big whole to fill. What you are asking for is a balanced army.....That doesn't exist in 40K
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Post by: Midnightdeathblade
Can Tau get an infantry character that's actually aiming their rifle?
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Post by: Flinty
Mantle wrote: Lord Damocles wrote:It might just be his base, but wow Darkstider looks huge compared to regular Pathfinders...
Aren't pathfinders young tau from the fire caste? He's a lot older than those he leads so could be the reason he's taller.
I don't think I've seen that as a bit of Pathfinder lore.
Battlesuit pilots are older, as they need to prove themselves as fire warriors first. But not all fire warriors can get promoted to battlesuit pilot just due to logistics.
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Post by: Flipsiders
The great thing about Tau is that basically all of their finecast models both look great and are extremely easy to find in metal.
The only exception used to be Darkstrider, but now that that issue's been taken care of, the only Tau sculpts which really need upgrades are the horrifyingly ugly ones (looking at you, Vespids).
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
Theophony wrote: Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Gert wrote: Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
T'au don't have a fairly solid core.
They're missing a lot of unit archetypes other factions have, and their current setup works both against their lore (where are the Auxilliaries?) and against them on the tabletop, because they can only really participate in two phases out of the entire round, making them either blatantly OP or blatantly awful.
The vast majority of the T'au range is not only plastic but very recent kits or kits that hold up well despite being old. They have minimal Finecast left over, split between Named Characters and Auxiliaries. It's the exact same with Drukhari. Auxiliaries and the various Named Characters are not the core of the T'au, Fire Warriors, Battlesuits, and skimmers are, all of which are good kits.
Doesn't change the fact they have very obvious holes that need plugging badly if they're ever supposed to be a normal army.
Like durable melee or anything capable of securing an objectives.
Auxillaries are nice, but if they find a suitable alien species that: 1)fits the role 2)has not been wiped out by the Imperium 3)exist in numbers large enough to be used in large scale conflicts across the Tau Empire 4)gives a gak about the greater good. In the lore there just are not too many xenos that fit all those niches. Tau have that big disadvantage to overcome. That's why they are an upstart race, and are becoming a big concern. They are starting to overcome these obstacles, but they still have a big whole to fill. What you are asking for is a balanced army.....That doesn't exist in 40K
They can always get melee suits.
Or a particularly bulky derivative of the Kroot.
Or both, at the same time.
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Post by: Tawnis
Ordana wrote:
Kroot die to a stiff breeze and their combat is utterly laughable. No one is going to be scared to charge into 10 kroot sitting on an objective and anyone interested in charging them will likely wipe them without breaking a sweat.
Yeah, I've made it work with Etherals 6+ FNP and 9Ld aura (helps if there is nearby cover for Hidden Hunters too), but only one really specific built does not a good unit make. Also can't be used within a Farsight Enclaves detachment which is a big downside to that as most lists run Farsight currently. Though having a big blob of Kroot get FTGG from Gunship Diplomat does also help a bit with the charges against them, but yeah, I had two squads brawl it out with a single Malignant Plaguecaster (at 2 wounds left) and it took them two rounds to kill him, loosing 9 of the 20 Kroot in the process.
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Post by: Togusa
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:How do!
So we’re officially into the run up to Tau getting their 9th Ed codex.
Couple of bits shown so far, such as improvements to the Pulse Rifle and Carbine.
Today, we’re shown the codex cover art
And we’re promised the mystery model’s full reveal later.
I really hope playing suits is doable this time around. I don't want infantry as they're a pain to build and transport. Just gimmie some Crisis Suits, Ghostkeels, and a riptide and I'll be happy as a clam!
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Post by: cuda1179
Tawnis wrote: Ordana wrote:
Kroot die to a stiff breeze and their combat is utterly laughable. No one is going to be scared to charge into 10 kroot sitting on an objective and anyone interested in charging them will likely wipe them without breaking a sweat.
Yeah, I've made it work with Etherals 6+ FNP and 9Ld aura (helps if there is nearby cover for Hidden Hunters too), but only one really specific built does not a good unit make. Also can't be used within a Farsight Enclaves detachment which is a big downside to that as most lists run Farsight currently. Though having a big blob of Kroot get FTGG from Gunship Diplomat does also help a bit with the charges against them, but yeah, I had two squads brawl it out with a single Malignant Plaguecaster (at 2 wounds left) and it took them two rounds to kill him, loosing 9 of the 20 Kroot in the process.
Back in the day I used to run a pretty decent Kroot heavy Tau army. Kroot need buffs, one thing that would really help is letting them have the +1 attack for their Kroot rifles back. If Ethereals don't help anymore then Kroot need an HQ. Angkor Prok used to be nifty, and he's in the lore. They should bring him back. I also would like to see a minor stat buff for them if they choose an evolutionary adaptation. Also, let them take kroothounds and krootox as squad upgrades again. A blob squad of 30 can be threatening.
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Post by: ZergSmasher
Personally I don't hate Darkstrider's old model. The new one is cooler, yes, but I don't entirely get the hate for the Finecast one. I had fun painting it too.
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Post by: Flipsiders
Honestly, I think the old one is cooler...
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Post by: Eldarain
It will be interesting to see how they resolve fitting Codex:Guns into the fight for the center edition.
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Post by: schoon
Would love to see a few new Kroot models as part of the release.
Perhaps a character and a Krootox replacement...
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Post by: Sunny Side Up
Seems like it'll be a 1-character-plus-codex-style release like Drukhari, Grey Knights, Thousand Sons, etc..
Next big release with multiple miniatures appears to be Eldar.
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Post by: Big Mac
GW really should just kill off some of these special characters and make new ones, especially tau as they have around 40 yrs of life span regularly.
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Post by: cuda1179
Big Mac wrote:GW really should just kill off some of these special characters and make new ones, especially tau as they have around 40 yrs of life span regularly.
The really important Tau are kept cryogenically frozen until they are needed. Some are also clones of the original to keep the person active.
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Post by: Gert
Aun'Va is now a holomatter avatar after being assassinated. The Ethereals deemed his death too big a blow to T'au society so they made a copy that recites speeches and stuff.
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Post by: Flipsiders
Gert wrote:Aun'Va is now a holomatter avatar after being assassinated. The Ethereals deemed his death too big a blow to T'au society so they made a copy that recites speeches and stuff.
Wow, Paul McCartney is a 40k character?
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Post by: Flinty
Actually, that gives me Equilibrium vibes. A highly controlled society. Enforced by advanced gunplay abilities. A leader that no longer exists but gives holographic addresses. Random katanas.
Need to do a Christian Bale themed Tau duder now
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Post by: Da Boss
Dystopian Tau are so much less interesting than Utopian Tau to me.
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Post by: Gert
TBF they aren't quite there yet. It's still better to live under the T'au than any other empire and even with the 4th Sphere massacring its Auxiliaries, as many 4th Sphere soldiers as possible were sent home to be healed rather than executed. The empire isn't perfect but its still a relative utopia.
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Post by: Da Boss
Tau as Imperium Mk2: A Little Bit Nicer is just not that interesting. I prefer them as a foil to the Imperium than a Mini-Me. YMMV, I know a lot of people don't agree with that.
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Post by: Flipsiders
Da Boss wrote:Tau as Imperium Mk2: A Little Bit Nicer is just not that interesting. I prefer them as a foil to the Imperium than a Mini-Me. YMMV, I know a lot of people don't agree with that.
I definitely agree. Having the ethereals be bad dudes admittedly creates a pretty fun dynamic, but it's annoying for the Tau to randomly commit atrocities simply because the writers are afraid people will get mad at them if there's a faction which might not be completely entirely horrible.
Besides Nurgle, of course, who did nothing wrong.
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Post by: Gert
But they still are the "good" faction though. The only things that are "bad" is the lying about Aun'Va being dead and one group of T'au getting absolutely freaked out by a Warp entity and murdering the psychic allied species.
Could you explain why you feel the T'au are a mini-Imperium?
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Post by: tneva82
Gert wrote:But they still are the "good" faction though. The only things that are "bad" is the lying about Aun'Va being dead and one group of T'au getting absolutely freaked out by a Warp entity and murdering the psychic allied species.
Could you explain why you feel the T'au are a mini-Imperium?
Brainwashing subjects?
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Post by: Platuan4th
Gert wrote:But they still are the "good" faction though. The only things that are "bad" is the lying about Aun'Va being dead and one group of T'au getting absolutely freaked out by a Warp entity and murdering the psychic allied species.
Could you explain why you feel the T'au are a mini-Imperium?
Try reading any of the Tau centered novels. Rigid class enforcement(to the point of even restricting social interactions), Ethereals forcing higher ups to commit suicide through their pheromone control for underlings talking back, using secret Kais clones as Imperial style assassins, non-Tau members of the empire are on councils but have lesser votes, etc.
The Tau aren't as squeaky clean as people like to pretend.
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Post by: Da Boss
Lying isn't "bad", it's just bad. Murdering people is also bad. Treating non-Tau members of the Empire as second class is bad. The Ethereals lying and manipulating people is bad.
I preferred them as genuinely altruistic and genuinely a multispecies coalition, rather than another empire that's just less evil than the main one. I don't think that needs much explanation, does it? We likely just disagree about the degree to which certain actions are objectionable, and it's unlikely we'll find common ground there.
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Post by: endlesswaltz123
It's not realistic (not that 40k is) to have a Utopia where there are different classes of power and leadership yet paradise for all. Power inevitably corrupts.
Ultimate good guy Tau is so boring. They are currently grey, and a lighter shade of it, but a whiter than whiter squeaky clean faction is so uninteresting and gives zero room for character development and complexity.
Lastly, the natural desperation of the setting would inevitably corrupt them and make them face up to the harsh realities. They are a small fish (pun intended) in a large pond of ruthless predators, and they will need to inevitably make tough, harsh and arguably evil decisions for 'the greater good', and the greater good is survival currently.
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Post by: Da Boss
I genuinely respect other views on the background, I don't want to derail the thread.
I've got to say it is disappointing that they're not making an effort to replace Finecast units like Vespid, Kroot Hounds and Krootox.
They're really important for giving the flavour of tau as a coalition of species, which is one of the coolest things about them. Instead we're just getting one character. Given the level of production capacity and plastic technology GW has these days, I find it baffling that they wouldn't designate some design time to updating these sculpts.
I guess the design studio just does whatever it wants? And what it wants is a bajillion different space marine characters?
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Post by: Dysartes
And apparently when it comes to the Tau, they want as many Gundam rip-offs as possible.
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Post by: BertBert
Da Boss wrote:I genuinely respect other views on the background, I don't want to derail the thread.
I've got to say it is disappointing that they're not making an effort to replace Finecast units like Vespid, Kroot Hounds and Krootox.
They're really important for giving the flavour of tau as a coalition of species, which is one of the coolest things about them. Instead we're just getting one character. Given the level of production capacity and plastic technology GW has these days, I find it baffling that they wouldn't designate some design time to updating these sculpts.
I guess the design studio just does whatever it wants? And what it wants is a bajillion different space marine characters?
I have to second this. Overhauled auxiliaries are long overdue and I fear that they have been replaced by more and bigger mechas, as far as the identity of the Tau goes.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Dysartes wrote:And apparently when it comes to the Tau, they want as many Gundam rip-offs as possible.
Is that really so surprising? Even when the Kroot and Vespid kits were "NEW! NEW! NEW!" they didn't seem to be as big of a draw as the suits were. At the very least, we know that SOMETHING is being done with the Kroot. The Blackstone Fortress character wasn't done in isolation for design-work.
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Post by: Da Boss
Kroot have always had their fans. The IDEA of vespids is really exciting and I like their background, but their sculpts look like ass.
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Post by: Voss
Da Boss wrote:I genuinely respect other views on the background, I don't want to derail the thread.
I've got to say it is disappointing that they're not making an effort to replace Finecast units like Vespid, Kroot Hounds and Krootox.
They're really important for giving the flavour of tau as a coalition of species, which is one of the coolest things about them. Instead we're just getting one character. Given the level of production capacity and plastic technology GW has these days, I find it baffling that they wouldn't designate some design time to updating these sculpts.
I guess the design studio just does whatever it wants? And what it wants is a bajillion different space marine characters?
Unfortunately, they got the same release slot as Dark Eldar last year, with a budget for a single character, despite all the holes in the line. Blame the bean counters for not allocating more project funds. ( DG and GSC were in a similar boat).
I'm just glad that craftworlds look like they might get ork level of support (hoping for necron level). But what I really hope is they commit to finishing tyranids and getting the final few kits in plastic.
---
The big difference with space marines is new SM (especially characters) are just a matter of a few gubbins- most of the various bits already exist in the CAD library (bar faces and little things). Unfortunately for Tau, each coalition species basically has to be done from scratch, because its been so long since they've been touched.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Da Boss wrote:Kroot have always had their fans. The IDEA of vespids is really exciting and I like their background, but their sculpts look like ass.
Sure, Kroot have had their fans--but they haven't really been a draw for someone to collect Tau in my experience not like the various Battlesuits have been.
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Post by: Sterling191
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Post by: IanVanCheese
Sterling191 wrote:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/12/14/master-the-ways-of-montka-and-kauyon-with-codex-tau-empires-new-tactical-philosophies/
Looks like it's Mont'Ka for everyone time.
There are a few match ups where Kauyon would be nice to have in your back pocket, but yeah, Montka is looking like the go to. Will be super interesting to see how Farsight and Shadowsun interact with these now. Assuming they'll let you put units into Mont'ka/Kauyon outside the turn sequence.
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Post by: Sterling191
Kauyon is DoA without some means to manipulate it sadly. Only activating on Turn 3 is faaaaar too slow.
I fully expect Farsight and Shadowsun to have some means of interacting with these. Whether it's a turn manipulation mechanic, or a more boring Chapter Master-esque pointing at a unit and putting them into Mont'Ka or Kauyon respectively I dont know.
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Post by: Voss
Huh. I actually like those in concept (unlike a lot of the special rules layers for 9th edition armies).
There's no 'gotcha' nonsense, no weird dependencies (command protocols) and they're fairly straightforward in implementation.
Kauyon is definitely a little worse, though. The two parts aren't compatible, aren't guaranteed and are based on things surviving that long. It sounds really cool to get an extra hit on a 4+, but I'd rather have extra mobility in the early game (even advancing) while 'remaining stationary,' let alone with bonus AP and reroll 1s.
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Post by: bullyboy
Didn't they already have Fallback as a normal move? So Mont'ka allows you to fallback and shoot without penalty in the first 3 turns, but kauyon only allows you to do it in turns 3-5 and there is a -1 to hit associated with it?
That does not bode well.
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Post by: Sterling191
bullyboy wrote:Didn't they already have Fallback as a normal move? So Mont'ka allows you to fallback and shoot without penalty in the first 3 turns, but kauyon only allows you to do it in turns 3-5 and there is a -1 to hit associated with it?
That does not bode well.
Falling Back is distinctly not a Normal Move in 9th. Mont'Ka as written does not allow that functionality.
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Post by: Tawnis
Kanluwen wrote: Da Boss wrote:Kroot have always had their fans. The IDEA of vespids is really exciting and I like their background, but their sculpts look like ass.
Sure, Kroot have had their fans--but they haven't really been a draw for someone to collect Tau in my experience not like the various Battlesuits have been.
The were for me, but I certainly understand I'm in the minority. That being said, if the Kroot were expanded upon and featured more front and center, that could change. The have enough design space to be a small faction in their own right if GW actually decided to pay them any mind for once. Automatically Appended Next Post: Sterling191 wrote:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/12/14/master-the-ways-of-montka-and-kauyon-with-codex-tau-empires-new-tactical-philosophies/
Looks like it's Mont'Ka for everyone time.
Yeah, seems like in 9th that's the way to go. Makes me wonder though, given how far in advance future editions and plans are, could Kauyon be something more viable in the next edition where it might not be about aggressively fighting over the midfield so much?
There are a few corner case situations where I could see Kauyon working, but yeah, seems like it's going to be 95% Mont'Ka for the foreseeable future.
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Post by: bullyboy
Sterling191 wrote: bullyboy wrote:Didn't they already have Fallback as a normal move? So Mont'ka allows you to fallback and shoot without penalty in the first 3 turns, but kauyon only allows you to do it in turns 3-5 and there is a -1 to hit associated with it?
That does not bode well.
Falling Back is distinctly not a Normal Move in 9th. Mont'Ka as written does not allow that functionality.
Current Mont'ka indeed allows you to fall back and shoot, it's why FSE has been the most successful Tau army in 9th thus far.
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Post by: Sterling191
bullyboy wrote:
Current Mont'ka indeed allows you to fall back and shoot, it's why FSE has been the most successful Tau army in 9th thus far.
Current Mont'ka does. The Mont'Ka on display here explicitly does not. You don't get three turns of Advance and count as stationary, extra AP, rerolls to wound *and* free fall back and shoot.
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Post by: bullyboy
Sterling191 wrote: bullyboy wrote:
Current Mont'ka indeed allows you to fall back and shoot, it's why FSE has been the most successful Tau army in 9th thus far.
Current Mont'ka does. The Mont'Ka on display here explicitly does not. You don't get three turns of Advance and count as stationary, extra AP, rerolls to wound *and* free fall back and shoot.
OK, well that's good then otherwise it would be even more of a no brainer choice.
I wonder if Farsight will have an ability to allow a unit to fallback and shoot then? It's a huge issue for them if not due to wanting to be in close proximity with Mont'ka.
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Post by: Imateria
Mont'ka looks amazing, which is great for me as I'm always going to go for the fast moving army play style. I can definitely see Kauyon being the better choice in certain matchups though, and all of this is in a vacuum, we have no idea what further interactions with these abilities are in the codex.
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Post by: Voss
Tawnis wrote:
Yeah, seems like in 9th that's the way to go. Makes me wonder though, given how far in advance future editions and plans are, could Kauyon be something more viable in the next edition where it might not be about aggressively fighting over the midfield so much?
I doubt 10th will bring a major shift, particularly not in the stuff that matters. They're still flailing a bit on how objectives should work in this edition, for one thing.
But most of the problem with Kauyon are the 9th edition specific changes to weapons to increase lethality, which are really unlikely to be reversed next time. Not so much midfield fighting as the sheer ability for armies to just erase units, meaning that bonuses that don't even start until turn 3 just aren't useful, and Tau aren't notably durable in the first place.
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Post by: Red Corsair
bullyboy wrote:Sterling191 wrote: bullyboy wrote:
Current Mont'ka indeed allows you to fall back and shoot, it's why FSE has been the most successful Tau army in 9th thus far.
Current Mont'ka does. The Mont'Ka on display here explicitly does not. You don't get three turns of Advance and count as stationary, extra AP, rerolls to wound *and* free fall back and shoot.
OK, well that's good then otherwise it would be even more of a no brainer choice.
I wonder if Farsight will have an ability to allow a unit to fallback and shoot then? It's a huge issue for them if not due to wanting to be in close proximity with Mont'ka.
I mean, isn't that the entire point? Why play if everything is solved for you* out of the box with zero risks involved?
(Not specifically you, the proverbial you)*
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Post by: Sterling191
bullyboy wrote:
OK, well that's good then otherwise it would be even more of a no brainer choice.
I wonder if Farsight will have an ability to allow a unit to fallback and shoot then? It's a huge issue for them if not due to wanting to be in close proximity with Mont'ka.
Farsight and Shadowsun are almost certainly going to have abilities to manipulate their favored philosophy in some manner. The army's crippling vulnerability to the bad touch can be very easily dealt with by other means.
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Post by: CMLR
Would like to give my opinion, but pandemic made me return to homecity and noone else here plays here so no matches since.
Glad to see and start to learn about the state of the army, and hoping for more news for Enclaves.
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Post by: Ordana
Losing fall back and shoot is huge unless there are good other ways of getting it.
Kauyon being turn 3-5 makes me seriously wonder what game of 40k the designers are playing. Games are decided in the first 2 turns, 3 if we're being very generous. Having no bonus in the most crucial times is simply not an option.
I also love how the idea of Mont'ka is to reward you for advanced forwards by shortening the range each turn when it reality it will be the Tau hanging back and the enemy coming forward instead.
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Post by: Kanluwen
The same thing can be said for the Idoneth's "Tides of Death"...
I'm pretty sure that Commanders will be able to manipulate when these things get active.
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Post by: tneva82
Has decent abilities to start and t3 isn't as late in aos3 as it's in 40k. 2 to 3 double turn for example is hell of a lot more powerful than 1 to 2. There's reason why going 2nd is rewarded on round 3.
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Post by: ChiliPowderKeg
Ah cool. They incorporated these as a "battle plan" approach instead of having it as a Crisis Commander roleplaying as a quarterback
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Post by: Amun-Rom
I actually haven't been able to find any changes to the pulse rifle or the carbine? What did they change?
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Post by: Voss
Amun-Rom wrote:
I actually haven't been able to find any changes to the pulse rifle or the carbine? What did they change?
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/25/troops-are-better-than-ever-how-the-next-three-codexes-improve-your-units/
Basically: range. And rifles get a point of AP.
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Post by: Tawnis
Ordana wrote:Losing fall back and shoot is huge unless there are good other ways of getting it.
Kauyon being turn 3-5 makes me seriously wonder what game of 40k the designers are playing. Games are decided in the first 2 turns, 3 if we're being very generous. Having no bonus in the most crucial times is simply not an option.
I also love how the idea of Mont'ka is to reward you for advanced forwards by shortening the range each turn when it reality it will be the Tau hanging back and the enemy coming forward instead.
I'm going to bet that the new abilities for Farsight and Shadowsun are going to be extensions of Kauyon / Mont'Ka. I'll bet that Farsight will be something like Mont'Ka lasts for an extra turn, and Shadowsun is Kauyon starts turn 2. We are only seeing bits and pieces right now, while they certainly look like one is stronger than the other, that may change with how the army is reworked. We just have to wait and see. (Could even be a WT if it is a thing.) If it ends up being something like that, it makes sense to have Kauyon pushed back to turn 3 so that it's not busted if you use something like that.
Otherwise, yeah, seems odd to put something in like that that is only really strong that late in the game when most things are dead and 9/10 the game is already decided. Automatically Appended Next Post: Amun-Rom wrote:
I actually haven't been able to find any changes to the pulse rifle or the carbine? What did they change?
They also had a blink and you'll miss it statement that Pulse Blasters would get a buff too, but no details on exactly what that buff would be.
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Post by: Irbis
You know what is funny? Dawn of War (yup, the 2004 game) invented two minor tactics, lone hunter and great strike (fluffed as experimental but raised to the status of equal to the two big ones should the Tau win the campaign), to give Tau players more options and varied gameplay than just the two lame codex ones. Seeing GW made the game commanders canon (and Shas O'Kais even specifically the third student of Puretide) you'd expect they would also add them to give Tau players more options than ramming them into Mont'ka hole seeing no one will pick the other bonus... Oh wait, no, that would require competent rule writers, better just make Tau broken OP again instead
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Post by: tneva82
Not good if kayon requires special character to be at all viable
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Post by: Platuan4th
Irbis wrote:You know what is funny? Dawn of War (yup, the 2004 game) invented two minor tactics, lone hunter and great strike (fluffed as experimental but raised to the status of equal to the two big ones should the Tau win the campaign), to give Tau players more options and varied gameplay than just the two lame codex ones. Seeing GW made the game commanders canon (and Shas O'Kais even specifically the third student of Puretide) you'd expect they would also add them to give Tau players more options than ramming them into Mont'ka hole seeing no one will pick the other bonus... Oh wait, no, that would require competent rule writers, better just make Tau broken OP again instead
Lone Hunter IS recognized as the third way, it's that no one other than Kais has such a detachment from society(being that such a thing is normally anathema to the highly social Tau) as to be able to implement it properly. That's why Kais clones exist as one of the Ethereals dark secrets.
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Post by: BertBert
I wonder if the buff to pulse rifles will extend to burst cannon.
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Post by: Albertorius
Kanluwen wrote: Da Boss wrote:Kroot have always had their fans. The IDEA of vespids is really exciting and I like their background, but their sculpts look like ass.
Sure, Kroot have had their fans--but they haven't really been a draw for someone to collect Tau in my experience not like the various Battlesuits have been.
I men, the fish tanks were also a great draw, historically, and still, they've done basically nothing with them in a long while.
I honestly find the tanks much more appealing than most of the suits, particularly the big ones.
But then again, I'm very much against using all this big maxitures that GW insists on making for a game that doesn't actually accomodate them.
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Post by: Flipsiders
Albertorius wrote: Kanluwen wrote: Da Boss wrote:Kroot have always had their fans. The IDEA of vespids is really exciting and I like their background, but their sculpts look like ass.
Sure, Kroot have had their fans--but they haven't really been a draw for someone to collect Tau in my experience not like the various Battlesuits have been.
I men, the fish tanks were also a great draw, historically, and still, they've done basically nothing with them in a long while.
I honestly find the tanks much more appealing than most of the suits, particularly the big ones.
But then again, I'm very much against using all this big maxitures that GW insists on making for a game that doesn't actually accomodate them.
The FW Tetras are by far the coolest-looking models the Tau have. Hard agree that it shouldn't be all about the robot suits.
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Post by: IanVanCheese
Yeah I'm all about the Tau tanks over suits. Devilfish looks cool af.
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Post by: MajorWesJanson
Barracuda and Tigersharks are the real stars, but the Devilfish is a classic. Would be nice to get a remastered version like they did the russ and chimera kits.
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
T'au are a victim of GW initially trying to make them a well-rounded, diverse force with vehicles, infantry, battlesuits and alien auxilliaries to fit the gaps in the range, but then switching to only making what ended up having the best sales, aka Battlesuits and occasional infantry.
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Post by: Nevelon
To be fair, it’s what makes them unique. Gunlines can be done with guard, and mechanized grav-armor w/infantry support was an Eldar thing first.
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Post by: Da Boss
Multi-species coalition is what makes them unique. Every faction has some sort of piloted mech, except tyranids.
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Post by: Dendarien
A multi-species coalition is maybe what the fluff talked about, but that hasn't translated to models. It's pretty much always been the Tau + Kroot sidekick show. I doubt GW will ever return to that design paradigm for the Tau.
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Post by: Voss
Dendarien wrote:A multi-species coalition is maybe what the fluff talked about, but that hasn't translated to models. It's pretty much always been the Tau + Kroot sidekick show. I doubt GW will ever return to that design paradigm for the Tau.
People know that. They're giving voice to the fact that they want Tau to match their fluff.
More aliens in the galaxy-wide wargame.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Da Boss wrote:Multi-species coalition is what makes them unique. Every faction has some sort of piloted mech, except tyranids.
Guard have piloted walkers...and a "multi-species coalition".
What makes Tau unique is that their "walkers" were still treated as semi-organic.
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Post by: Ahtman
I just want to take crisis suits as troops again. CRISIS WING ASSEMBLE!
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Post by: Gimgamgoo
Ahtman wrote:I just want to take crisis suits as troops again. CRISIS WING ASSEMBLE!
I still miss the old metal XV15 Stealth suits. Do people still use them somehow? They were my first fully painted Tau unit.
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Post by: Sterling191
Gimgamgoo wrote:
I still miss the old metal XV15 Stealth suits. Do people still use them somehow? They were my first fully painted Tau unit.
I see them run as their XV25 successors not uncommonly.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I like people saying how great Kauyon is, thinking that a 9th game is ever going to get to turn 3 or 4.
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Post by: TheMostGood
Ahtman wrote:I just want to take crisis suits as troops again. CRISIS WING ASSEMBLE!
You can pretty much guarantee that there will be a way to make them Obj. Sec. for a turn or two.
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Post by: Grimskul
TheMostGood wrote: Ahtman wrote:I just want to take crisis suits as troops again. CRISIS WING ASSEMBLE!
You can pretty much guarantee that there will be a way to make them Obj. Sec. for a turn or two.
There'll definitely be an army of renown at some point where you'll be able to basically take them as an Obsec choice.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Sterling191 wrote: Gimgamgoo wrote:
I still miss the old metal XV15 Stealth suits. Do people still use them somehow? They were my first fully painted Tau unit.
I see them run as their XV25 successors not uncommonly.
Same. My friend runs them as the normal suits with the actual 25's as the unit leader.
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Post by: cuda1179
Gimgamgoo wrote: Ahtman wrote:I just want to take crisis suits as troops again. CRISIS WING ASSEMBLE!
I still miss the old metal XV15 Stealth suits. Do people still use them somehow? They were my first fully painted Tau unit.
I have 18 of the old XV15 suits, and I actually like the look more than the XV25's. It's funny how they still mention the older XV15 suits in the fluff. In past editions I used to love taking 18 stealth suits with 36 accompanying stealth gun drones. Throw in Shadowsun and a lot of infiltrating kroot and it made for a really annoying and uncommon alpha strike.
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Post by: Grumpy Gnome
Da Boss wrote:Lying isn't "bad", it's just bad. Murdering people is also bad. Treating non-Tau members of the Empire as second class is bad. The Ethereals lying and manipulating people is bad.
I preferred them as genuinely altruistic and genuinely a multispecies coalition, rather than another empire that's just less evil than the main one. I don't think that needs much explanation, does it? We likely just disagree about the degree to which certain actions are objectionable, and it's unlikely we'll find common ground there.
I also preferred it when the Tau were portrayed as more altruistic than currently. Just like a comedy show is better with at least one serious character.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StraightMan
It does not seem boring to me in the bigger picture. Quite the opposite. What gets boring is when every faction is just another shade of grey… and pretty dark grey at that. A villainous character in an altruistic society stands out. Just as an altruistic character in a villainous society.
But it seems Games Workshop does not even want shades of grey.
They want all the factions to be horrible in the fluff. And not just the factions. Everybody.
Direct from GW…
“There are no goodies in the Warhammer 40,000 universe.
None.”
As quoted from….
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/
And that irks me. 40k has gotten too grimdark for my taste. It lacks context and subtlety. The evil corruption is pervasive and all consuming.It is hopeless and makes the conflict fundamentally pointless. It has jumped the shark you might say.
As an aside… I have Kroot and none of the Gundam robots… but my Kroot are not for 40k so I suppose I am not the target audience.
102719
Post by: Gert
I think with that specific bit it's to make it explicitly clear there are no Clark Kents or Peter Parkers in 40k, people who are good through and through. There are people who are good but ultimately fight for some kind of bad be it the top of the ladder with the Imperium and forces of Chaos (i.e. space fascists) or the bottom with the T'au and Non-Dark Aeldari (imperial powers that are better but still bad because Imperialism is inherently bad).
For example, Ibram Gaunt is a good man who tries to prevent loss of life wherever he can but ultimately is a servant of a fascist empire that has the executive power to execute people who run from battle. Good person, bad system, but is fanatically loyal to that system and therefore from a modern perspective Ibram Gaunt is still a bad guy.
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Post by: TheMostGood
I agree.
It doesn't mean that there are no good people (persons, aliens, xenos, creatures?), it's just they would not be called "good" as we define it because, quite simply, there's no chance to be good in this universe.
It's grim dark.
Especially when there are things in this universe that cannot be reasoned with and only live for your destruction. In a situation where compromise to maintain the moral high ground can result in your annihilation. There's little room for charity. For kindness.
The T'au are no different. I would argue out of all the factions, theirs is probably the most pleasant and tolerable, such as it is. There are certainly undertones of dictatorship and brainwashing going on and they have a rigid caste system that is often unfair and unforgiving. The often claim to be benevolent and honorable, but can go back on their word, just like with any other sentient creature (or human experience if we look at ourselves).
This universe simply does not leave any room for the possibility of a benevolent faction that is only good and never does bad things. It quite honestly wouldn't be believable, despite how ridiculous the setting can be in general.
Farsight is kind of a good example of this. He's a "good" guy in a sense. He's honorable. He thinks for himself and tries to do what is "right". But he also wields a sword that steals life from the people he kills with it. Granted, the lore implies he doesn't realize it but I mean, come on, he's got to know that the sword is helping him in someway. He isn't that naïve.
Would you say he's a bad guy for stealing the life essence from his victims (whether he knows or not)? That's not a "good" act. It's an evil one no matter how you try to slice it.
Personally, for me, I think he knows damn well what it is doing. But he also knows how important he is to his people now. He knows that he has work to do to help the T'au survive in a universe that they've been lied to about.
It all depends on what you're willing to do for victory.
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Post by: Grumpy Gnome
I have had enough “the ends justifies the means” in my real life… for my gaming I would like a choice in a fictional setting to not have to accept the ends justifies the means.
What sold me on 40K as a teenager in the 80’s was what appeared to be an epic last stand of Crimson Fist Imperial Marines, back to back, holding against what is implied are impossible odds. The Alamo, Roarkes Drift, Arnhem… but without the historical baggage associated with those situations. Then it turns out the Imperium of Man is pretty irredeemable. The Eldar turn out to be pretty dodgy too. So I quit the game and lost interest in the 40k universe. Until the Tau came out. That surprised me and intrigued me. But of course that could not last. The idea of modeling humans in service to the “Greater Good” of the Tau lost all appeal.
I get that it is hard to sell violence as a game in any kind of clean and noble context given current widespread cultural beliefs. When it is done it is often misinterpreted… hence the whole need to make such a statement against hate outside the game world. I just think GW has made an artistic mistake not to have an example of a culture that has not succumbed to fear and the temptation of the easy path. Which is how I see having the ends justify the means. That is pure fear speaking.
Folks want to like 40k and it’s grimmest of grimdark, cool for them. Enjoy. I am just expressing why I do not like it and what I think GW could do to change it if they wanted to. I know some folks would then complain because not everyone is going to agree. I know some folks ignore GW and see the Imperial Marines as noble Heroes to look up to. Some folks might see making Tau “good guys” as GW supporting socialism the same way some folks might see GW painting the Imperium as “good guys” appears to support religious fundamentalism and fascism.
It is a tricky thing making one of the most widely recognized and financially successful wargaming IP in the world.
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Post by: Da Boss
Yeah like I'm fine with some bad Tau, it'd be unrealistic not to have bad tau. But I like the contrast of a genuinely integrationist, multicultural federation at least TRYING (even if they fail a lot) to do things right. It makes for a good contrast, and shines a light on the Imperium being gratuitously awful rather than justified in what they do. If you force the Tau into the same mold, I just don't think it's that interesting by comparison. It can certainly be that the Tau's utopian ideals clash with reality and they struggle to stay true to them - that's fine! It can even be the case that they're ultimately doomed. No problem. It's the implication that no, they're actually pretty rotten at the core and their beliefs are a sham that's boring to me. We've already got that, it's called the Imperium of Man and it's cool to have that once in your setting but not that exciting to have it twice.
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
Haven't you heard, every faction must be the Imperium of Man?
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Post by: Grumpy Gnome
Da Boss wrote:Yeah like I'm fine with some bad Tau, it'd be unrealistic not to have bad tau. But I like the contrast of a genuinely integrationist, multicultural federation at least TRYING (even if they fail a lot) to do things right. It makes for a good contrast, and shines a light on the Imperium being gratuitously awful rather than justified in what they do. If you force the Tau into the same mold, I just don't think it's that interesting by comparison. It can certainly be that the Tau's utopian ideals clash with reality and they struggle to stay true to them - that's fine! It can even be the case that they're ultimately doomed. No problem. It's the implication that no, they're actually pretty rotten at the core and their beliefs are a sham that's boring to me. We've already got that, it's called the Imperium of Man and it's cool to have that once in your setting but not that exciting to have it twice.
I quite agree.
It was also interesting for me to go back and look again at that iconic image I remember… to a certain degree misremember… from my childhood. There are details I forgot, perhaps overlooked, as a teenager projecting my own wish for heroes to admire. The satirical aspect of it was completely missed by me back then. Of course I was a young man on the path to not long after enlist in the infantry. I wonder how aware GW is as a company of how often their customers interpret their products different from what they intend, especially given the marketing so often targets teenagers.
1
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Post by: Altima
Da Boss wrote:Yeah like I'm fine with some bad Tau, it'd be unrealistic not to have bad tau. But I like the contrast of a genuinely integrationist, multicultural federation at least TRYING (even if they fail a lot) to do things right. It makes for a good contrast, and shines a light on the Imperium being gratuitously awful rather than justified in what they do. If you force the Tau into the same mold, I just don't think it's that interesting by comparison. It can certainly be that the Tau's utopian ideals clash with reality and they struggle to stay true to them - that's fine! It can even be the case that they're ultimately doomed. No problem. It's the implication that no, they're actually pretty rotten at the core and their beliefs are a sham that's boring to me. We've already got that, it's called the Imperium of Man and it's cool to have that once in your setting but not that exciting to have it twice.
The Tau are in an interesting place narratively. I think most people agree that where the Tau should land at is having to crawl through the same mud and slime and grime that the Imperium and in fact most other civilized races in 40k have to go through but instead of being broken by it, come out at the other end battered and bruised but ultimately keeping their ideals.
Unfortunately, I think their introduction was a bit botched. Nothing too overt, no one thing that anyone could point to, but overall the way they were introduced put them into somewhat of a category of their own. I think this has led to them being categorized as not fitting with the setting.
In short, when they were introduced and I've not seen anything particularly change over the years, they more or less had everything handed to them on a silver platter, whether through the lore itself or narratively. Infighting? Eldar put a stop to that with the Ethereals. Technology to put them on par with the Imperium? Given that too. Damocles Crusade? Warp stormed, had a few arguments, then eventually called off to fight off Behemoth. Chaos? Whoops, low psychic presence or potential. So no FTL because of that? Well, yes, but actually no, and they'll get new drives or wormholes or what have you as they need to expand. Okay, what about massive Ork WAAAGH!s or hive fleets or a follow-up Crusade? Yeah, no. Civil War? No, except that one time, but even then it's not like a war of annihilation on either side as you'd expect.
They've never really suffered a significant loss. Sure, they've lost random planets here and there to splinter fleets or orks or dark eldar or Imperial shenanigans, but they've never really had that culturally shattering moment that all the other sapient factions have. They're not a dying race; they're not struggling to claw onto what they have left; they're not hiding in their own little pocket of the universe doing what they want because they couldn't survive in the greater community. No, they're expanding, spreading their ideals and their Greater Good and so on, and it's all so easy for them.
And I think that's what makes them clash with the setting. The way they're set up, they feel like they can't lose. Every codex, every lore update, they'll have more--more technology, more ships, more weapons, faster engines, more colonies, more spheres of expansions, more client races. In 40k, no race should get as big as the Tau have without their teeth having gotten kicked in at least a few times. They haven't, so it feels disingenuous that they get to pretend to be the happy, shiny good guys when they haven't been tested.
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Post by: Therion
Altima wrote: Da Boss wrote:Yeah like I'm fine with some bad Tau, it'd be unrealistic not to have bad tau. But I like the contrast of a genuinely integrationist, multicultural federation at least TRYING (even if they fail a lot) to do things right. It makes for a good contrast, and shines a light on the Imperium being gratuitously awful rather than justified in what they do. If you force the Tau into the same mold, I just don't think it's that interesting by comparison. It can certainly be that the Tau's utopian ideals clash with reality and they struggle to stay true to them - that's fine! It can even be the case that they're ultimately doomed. No problem. It's the implication that no, they're actually pretty rotten at the core and their beliefs are a sham that's boring to me. We've already got that, it's called the Imperium of Man and it's cool to have that once in your setting but not that exciting to have it twice.
The Tau are in an interesting place narratively. I think most people agree that where the Tau should land at is having to crawl through the same mud and slime and grime that the Imperium and in fact most other civilized races in 40k have to go through but instead of being broken by it, come out at the other end battered and bruised but ultimately keeping their ideals.
Unfortunately, I think their introduction was a bit botched. Nothing too overt, no one thing that anyone could point to, but overall the way they were introduced put them into somewhat of a category of their own. I think this has led to them being categorized as not fitting with the setting.
In short, when they were introduced and I've not seen anything particularly change over the years, they more or less had everything handed to them on a silver platter, whether through the lore itself or narratively. Infighting? Eldar put a stop to that with the Ethereals. Technology to put them on par with the Imperium? Given that too. Damocles Crusade? Warp stormed, had a few arguments, then eventually called off to fight off Behemoth. Chaos? Whoops, low psychic presence or potential. So no FTL because of that? Well, yes, but actually no, and they'll get new drives or wormholes or what have you as they need to expand. Okay, what about massive Ork WAAAGH!s or hive fleets or a follow-up Crusade? Yeah, no. Civil War? No, except that one time, but even then it's not like a war of annihilation on either side as you'd expect.
They've never really suffered a significant loss. Sure, they've lost random planets here and there to splinter fleets or orks or dark eldar or Imperial shenanigans, but they've never really had that culturally shattering moment that all the other sapient factions have. They're not a dying race; they're not struggling to claw onto what they have left; they're not hiding in their own little pocket of the universe doing what they want because they couldn't survive in the greater community. No, they're expanding, spreading their ideals and their Greater Good and so on, and it's all so easy for them.
And I think that's what makes them clash with the setting. The way they're set up, they feel like they can't lose. Every codex, every lore update, they'll have more--more technology, more ships, more weapons, faster engines, more colonies, more spheres of expansions, more client races. In 40k, no race should get as big as the Tau have without their teeth having gotten kicked in at least a few times. They haven't, so it feels disingenuous that they get to pretend to be the happy, shiny good guys when they haven't been tested.
To be fair, the entire setting changed with Primaris marines, Guilliman’s awakening etc. The Imperium is not a degrading craphole anymore holding on to ancient technology and desperately extracting geneseed from fallen Marines to keep the numbers up in a fight they are destined to lose but refuse to accept. Now, they got new unlimited supplies of Super Marines, new technology every release, new unit types, and they’re kicking the bad guys in their teeth! Sure the fight is still tough yaddayaddayadda but the whole thing’s changed nevertheless. The Imperium is evolving now, and everyone’s expecting other Primarchs to return/awaken in the coming years. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if Primaris marines launch an offensive against the eye of terror.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Therion wrote:
To be fair, the entire setting changed with Primaris marines, Guilliman’s awakening etc. The Imperium is not a degrading craphole anymore holding on to ancient technology and desperately extracting geneseed from fallen Marines to keep the numbers up in a fight they are destined to lose but refuse to accept. Now, they got new unlimited supplies of Super Marines, new technology every release, new unit types, and they’re kicking the bad guys in their teeth! Sure the fight is still tough yaddayaddayadda but the whole thing’s changed nevertheless. The Imperium is evolving now, and everyone’s expecting other Primarchs to return/awaken in the coming years. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if Primaris marines launch an offensive against the eye of terror.
Contrarily: Meanwhile in the Dark Imperium on the other side of the rift, entire systems are being reduced to the level they were at during Old Night due to the loss of the Astronomicon, declaring independence with no repercussions because they feel they've been abandoned, or just outright turning to Chaos openly to try and survive. The literal divide in the galaxy means the Imperium is in two different conditions depending on where you are in relation to Terra.
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Post by: Da Boss
If the Imperium is winning that means the bad guys are winning, because they're still deeply xenophobic genociders. It makes the 40k setting even more dark, because the wrongheaded bad guy faction is winning, essentially being rewarded for being evil.
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Post by: No One Important
I hate to break it to you, but if anyone is winning, the bad guys are winning. Also if no one is winning, then the bad guys are probably still winning.
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Post by: Ahtman
It is just Imperial propaganda. The Tau are the good guys and muy macho. Don't listen to the haters.
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Post by: Oguhmek
Da Boss wrote:If the Imperium is winning that means the bad guys are winning, because they're still deeply xenophobic genociders. It makes the 40k setting even more dark, because the wrongheaded bad guy faction is winning, essentially being rewarded for being evil.
Well it's all there plain on the first page of the rulebook - "In the grim dark future of the 41st millennium, there is only war..."
It's in the source of the concept of "grimdark" - there are no good guys.
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Post by: Albertorius
Oguhmek wrote: Da Boss wrote:If the Imperium is winning that means the bad guys are winning, because they're still deeply xenophobic genociders. It makes the 40k setting even more dark, because the wrongheaded bad guy faction is winning, essentially being rewarded for being evil.
Well it's all there plain on the first page of the rulebook - "In the grim dark future of the 41st millennium, there is only war..."
It's in the source of the concept of "grimdark" - there are no good guys.
It is also the source of the concept "grimderp", to be completely fair.
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Post by: Valkyrie
Gimgamgoo wrote: Ahtman wrote:I just want to take crisis suits as troops again. CRISIS WING ASSEMBLE!
I still miss the old metal XV15 Stealth suits. Do people still use them somehow? They were my first fully painted Tau unit.
You can make a pretty decent stand-in with an XV25 and a Palantine Enforcer torso. Just finished off a squad of 3 and they look pretty convincing.
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Post by: SamusDrake
I can just imagine reps from all 40K factions at Bad-Anon: One Game at a Time.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Oguhmek wrote: Da Boss wrote:If the Imperium is winning that means the bad guys are winning, because they're still deeply xenophobic genociders. It makes the 40k setting even more dark, because the wrongheaded bad guy faction is winning, essentially being rewarded for being evil.
Well it's all there plain on the first page of the rulebook - "In the grim dark future of the 41st millennium, there is only war..."
It's in the source of the concept of "grimdark" - there are no good guys.
Nids are neither good or bad though.
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Post by: Nevelon
NAVARRO wrote: Oguhmek wrote: Da Boss wrote:If the Imperium is winning that means the bad guys are winning, because they're still deeply xenophobic genociders. It makes the 40k setting even more dark, because the wrongheaded bad guy faction is winning, essentially being rewarded for being evil.
Well it's all there plain on the first page of the rulebook - "In the grim dark future of the 41st millennium, there is only war..."
It's in the source of the concept of "grimdark" - there are no good guys.
Nids are neither good or bad though.
All they want is hugs and snacks. Is that so wrong?
110083
Post by: skeleton
can we go back to the tau codex please
121068
Post by: Sterling191
Folks would talk about said codex...if there was any new information.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Nevelon wrote: NAVARRO wrote: Oguhmek wrote: Da Boss wrote:If the Imperium is winning that means the bad guys are winning, because they're still deeply xenophobic genociders. It makes the 40k setting even more dark, because the wrongheaded bad guy faction is winning, essentially being rewarded for being evil.
Well it's all there plain on the first page of the rulebook - "In the grim dark future of the 41st millennium, there is only war..."
It's in the source of the concept of "grimdark" - there are no good guys.
Nids are neither good or bad though.
All they want is hugs and snacks. Is that so wrong?
A big appetite is a good thing specially if you have planets full of burgers.
To be honest the idea of Tau being grim dark is boring and not how I see them at all. I would love to see something along the lines of combined army like in Infinity. Loads of smaller unique alien squads/types under the Tau banner.
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Post by: Grumpy Gnome
NAVARRO wrote:
A big appetite is a good thing specially if you have planets full of burgers.
To be honest the idea of Tau being grim dark is boring and not how I see them at all. I would love to see something along the lines of combined army like in Infinity. Loads of smaller unique alien squads/types under the Tau banner.
A coalition of allied species working together under Tau command is an interesting narrative element to bring to the lore. It lends contrast to the various already existing faction backgrounds as well as allows for rich diversity in miniatures.
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
Grumpy Gnome wrote: NAVARRO wrote:
A big appetite is a good thing specially if you have planets full of burgers.
To be honest the idea of Tau being grim dark is boring and not how I see them at all. I would love to see something along the lines of combined army like in Infinity. Loads of smaller unique alien squads/types under the Tau banner.
A coalition of allied species working together under Tau command is an interesting narrative element to bring to the lore. It lends contrast to the various already existing faction backgrounds as well as allows for rich diversity in miniatures.
Nah, let's make nothing but Battlesuits and the occasional hero, they sell the best. Auxiliaries who? Balanced army what?
129441
Post by: Grumpy Gnome
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Grumpy Gnome wrote: NAVARRO wrote:
A big appetite is a good thing specially if you have planets full of burgers.
To be honest the idea of Tau being grim dark is boring and not how I see them at all. I would love to see something along the lines of combined army like in Infinity. Loads of smaller unique alien squads/types under the Tau banner.
A coalition of allied species working together under Tau command is an interesting narrative element to bring to the lore. It lends contrast to the various already existing faction backgrounds as well as allows for rich diversity in miniatures.
Nah, let's make nothing but Battlesuits and the occasional hero, they sell the best. Auxiliaries who? Balanced army what?
Well companies are driven by profit I suppose. I can not speak for what sells best, only what I am interested in.
Here‘s the thing. Sometimes I want to play a “bad guy” and sometimes I want to play a “good guy”. It was frustrating when Bethesda made it difficult to play a clear cut raider villain in the original Fallout 4 but they listened to customer feedback an improved the game. I find it just as limiting from a narrative point of view to have everyone in 40k be villains.
And GW has clearly said in black and white everyone is bad. Everyone. Their words not mine. Not open to interpretation. There are no goodies. Full stop. That is their artistic take on the gameworld they are creating… even if all the writers (and obviously from the comments here many players) do not seem to see it that way.
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Post by: alextroy
Even if GW doesn't tell you that everyone is bad, it is obvious for anyone who wants to see. Who are the good guys in the 41st Millennium?
A Xenophobic, hate-driven, monotheistic, oppressive Imperium of Man.The dying remnants of a fading Eldar roaming the galaxy in their Craftworlds doing anything it takes to tip the scales of fate into their prolonged decline.The expansionistic Tau Empire forcing all them come across to become client races under their benevolent system of strict caste rules by diplomacy or force while being overseen by a mysterious elite caste.
These are the good guys
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Post by: Dysartes
Compared to "Kill everyone" (Necrons), "Eat everyone" (Tyranids), "Corrupt everyone, then let the sky gods eat them" (GSC), "Enslave, torture then kill everyone" (Dark Eldar), "Fight everyone and enslave the survivors" (Orks) and "Corrupt everyone in a variety of slaves, kill, main, burn" (Chaos) then... yes, I guess they're as close as you get.
At least racism appears to be less of an issue in the Imperium than it is today - speciesism is another matter entirely, of course.
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Post by: badgerson
Well, the -factions- are all bad. There's good people in many of them, though. Play the heroic general all you want!
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Post by: NAVARRO
I dont know, I just think that the all is bad and with a skull on top narrative/concept a bit too boring and limited.
I would think lots of imperial guard grunts are good fellas, victims of their leaders... So are tau and Kroot and maybe Ratlings, Ogryns...do vespids still exist?
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Post by: Arbitrator
The dislike for Tau being less morally black compared to other factions always seemed to come from that segment who wanted their ANGELS OF DEATH FOR THE EMPEROR to be perceived as the only 'righteous' figures.
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Post by: Dysartes
In theory - but given they don't allow the Gundam fetishists in the Design Studio to get off to the idea of them, they probably won't be a focus in the new 'dex.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Dysartes wrote: In theory - but given they don't allow the Gundam fetishists in the Design Studio to get off to the idea of them, they probably won't be a focus in the new 'dex.
Maybe if people would have stopped buying Riptides while complaining about how broken they were, we'd have seen more auxiliaries? Crazy thought! All honesty though, I don't know how one would think that something called an Auxiliary would be a focus in the main army? It's like expecting an all-Ogryn or Ratling list for Guard.
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Post by: Esmer
The Tau Empire is a bit more explicitedly multiracial than the Imperium that has made anti-mutant and anti-xenos genocide its official state doctrine.
Personally, what I'd like to see would be an approach where certain units are sept-locked - there's a sept that's big on various kinds of auxiliaries, another one that's big on suits, another one that's big on Fire Caste infantry, another one that's big on flyers and so on. Kinda like Space Marine chapters. Dark Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves and the like have a couple of units exclusive to themselves but lose access to other units, that sort of thing.
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
Esmer wrote:The Tau Empire is a bit more explicitedly multiracial than the Imperium that has made anti-mutant and anti-xenos genocide its official state doctrine.
Personally, what I'd like to see would be an approach where certain units are sept-locked - there's a sept that's big on various kinds of auxiliaries, another one that's big on suits, another one that's big on Fire Caste infantry, another one that's big on flyers and so on. Kinda like Space Marine chapters. Dark Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves and the like have a couple of units exclusive to themselves but lose access to other units, that sort of thing.
T'au don't have nearly enough units to make that work, they'd need a good 10 or 20 more.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Esmer wrote:The Tau Empire is a bit more explicitedly multiracial than the Imperium that has made anti-mutant and anti-xenos genocide its official state doctrine.
Something that often seems to be forgotten is that the "Caste" system for the Tau isn't just a societal thing. It's closer to genetic abnormalities than anything else. The different Castes are so different that it seems to be impossible for genetic intermixing or the like to occur.
Personally, what I'd like to see would be an approach where certain units are sept-locked - there's a sept that's big on various kinds of auxiliaries, another one that's big on suits, another one that's big on Fire Caste infantry, another one that's big on flyers and so on. Kinda like Space Marine chapters. Dark Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves and the like have a couple of units exclusive to themselves but lose access to other units, that sort of thing.
There is only one "Sept" that does not have everything available to them and that is the Farsight Enclaves.
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Post by: A Town Called Malus
Esmer wrote:The Tau Empire is a bit more explicitedly multiracial than the Imperium that has made anti-mutant and anti-xenos genocide its official state doctrine. Personally, what I'd like to see would be an approach where certain units are sept-locked - there's a sept that's big on various kinds of auxiliaries, another one that's big on suits, another one that's big on Fire Caste infantry, another one that's big on flyers and so on. Kinda like Space Marine chapters. Dark Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves and the like have a couple of units exclusive to themselves but lose access to other units, that sort of thing. No thank you. Tau are meant to be combined arms, the last thing we need are rules encouraging spamming of certain units in certain septs rather than the septs using the tools that the Tau have in different ways. There is zero lore reason for technology to be limited by sept, as that is simply not how the Tau military operates. That just leads to nonsense like the ability for a battlesuit to JSJ being limited to a single relic only available to the T'au sept. For the same reason, people please stop trying to plug the "gaps" in the army, such as close combat. Instead give us options to mitigate the weakness in other ways, such as mobility to avoid close combat and the ability to unleash close range firepower to clear enemies off objectives and then move onto the objective and be in a position for that unit to be supported by others to defend against the counterattack. GW already stripped the combined arms feel where smaller elements worked together to augment their individual capabilities rather than just making giant stompy robots like the Imperium when they brought in the Riptide and then the Stormsurge. Let's not lose more of the feel of the army.
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Post by: Tawnis
Altima wrote:
They've never really suffered a significant loss. Sure, they've lost random planets here and there to splinter fleets or orks or dark eldar or Imperial shenanigans, but they've never really had that culturally shattering moment that all the other sapient factions have. They're not a dying race; they're not struggling to claw onto what they have left; they're not hiding in their own little pocket of the universe doing what they want because they couldn't survive in the greater community. No, they're expanding, spreading their ideals and their Greater Good and so on, and it's all so easy for them.
And I think that's what makes them clash with the setting. The way they're set up, they feel like they can't lose. Every codex, every lore update, they'll have more--more technology, more ships, more weapons, faster engines, more colonies, more spheres of expansions, more client races. In 40k, no race should get as big as the Tau have without their teeth having gotten kicked in at least a few times. They haven't, so it feels disingenuous that they get to pretend to be the happy, shiny good guys when they haven't been tested.
It's funny that you say this is why people think they clash with the setting, when I've always thought this is what made them fit perfectly into the setting. The Eldar had their time in the sun, then fell horriby, messing up the galaxy and creating Slanesh. Then humanity had it's turn, the Great Crusade set out upon the stars, it had it's setbacks, but much like current Tau expansion they never really suffered a significant loss. Then Horus fell and the galaxy got so messed up it devolved into its current state. Now it's the Tau's turn, slowly, inevitably conquering all those before them, until one day in the far future when it is their turn to fall in some horrible way we cannot even fathom. Automatically Appended Next Post: A Town Called Malus wrote: Esmer wrote:The Tau Empire is a bit more explicitedly multiracial than the Imperium that has made anti-mutant and anti-xenos genocide its official state doctrine.
Personally, what I'd like to see would be an approach where certain units are sept-locked - there's a sept that's big on various kinds of auxiliaries, another one that's big on suits, another one that's big on Fire Caste infantry, another one that's big on flyers and so on. Kinda like Space Marine chapters. Dark Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves and the like have a couple of units exclusive to themselves but lose access to other units, that sort of thing.
No thank you. Tau are meant to be combined arms, the last thing we need are rules encouraging spamming of certain units in certain septs rather than the septs using the tools that the Tau have in different ways. There is zero lore reason for technology to be limited by sept, as that is simply not how the Tau military operates. That just leads to nonsense like the ability for a battlesuit to JSJ being limited to a single relic only available to the T'au sept.
For the same reason, people please stop trying to plug the "gaps" in the army, such as close combat. Instead give us options to mitigate the weakness in other ways, such as mobility to avoid close combat and the ability to unleash close range firepower to clear enemies off objectives and then move onto the objective and be in a position for that unit to be supported by others to defend against the counterattack. GW already stripped the combined arms feel where smaller elements worked together to augment their individual capabilities rather than just making giant stompy robots like the Imperium when they brought in the Riptide and then the Stormsurge. Let's not lose more of the feel of the army.
Agree, everyone should have access to everything, but I do think that the Septs could lean more heavily into their theme by providing buffs or specials rules to specific unit types:
- Bork'an (Tech Experts): Snipers & Broadsides.
- Dal'Yth (Stealth/Ambush): Stealth-suits & Auxiliaries.
- Farsight Enclaves (Close Quarters): Breachers & Crisis Suits.
- Sa'Cea (City fighting): Buffs for ruins/buildings cover & Non LoS shooting?
- Tau (Precision and Coordination): Overwatch, Tanks, & Marker-lights.
- Vior'la (Rapid Assault): Transports & Piranhas.
They don't have to be locked to encourage play in a specific direction. The trick is making them all worth taking instead of just Farsight Enclaves are the best for 95% of the builds.
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Post by: cuda1179
Dysartes wrote:
In theory - but given they don't allow the Gundam fetishists in the Design Studio to get off to the idea of them, they probably won't be a focus in the new 'dex.
I've wanted the Tau allies fleshed out a bit for a while. Human Auxillaries are a thing and are relatively active. Throwing a small upgrade sprue in with the Cadians to make a new Tau unit would be easy and awesome (kind of like Genestealer cults).
One thing I've wanted to see for a while now is Vespid females. They are supposed to be larger, tougher, and more rare than the males. Perhaps an Orgyn sized vespid character slinging two larger weapons could work. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kanluwen wrote:
There is only one "Sept" that does not have everything available to them and that is the Farsight Enclaves.
Don't a lot of the 4th Sphere expansion Tau pretty much reject allies? They go so far as to brutalize them and intentionally use them for cannon fodder and pointless suicide missions while neglecting to give them support.
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Post by: Jadenim
My reading was they did that whilst isolated, but they were forced to stop when they were reconnected. Although there’s hints of an underlying “alt-Tau” of 4th phasers, who get away with what they can.
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Post by: Grumpy Gnome
Jadenim wrote:My reading was they did that whilst isolated, but they were forced to stop when they were reconnected. Although there’s hints of an underlying “alt-Tau” of 4th phasers, who get away with what they can.
And that difference within the Tau is an interesting narrative hook.
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Post by: BertBert
Jadenim wrote:My reading was they did that whilst isolated, but they were forced to stop when they were reconnected. Although there’s hints of an underlying “alt-Tau” of 4th phasers, who get away with what they can.
Were they not accompanied by any ethereals or did those become alt-Tau too after the warp incident? I guess I'll have to catch up on more recent lore.
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Post by: bullyboy
Well, we can get back to talking tau rules again.
Battlesuits shooting into melee, a shoot and move options, better burst cannon stats, etc.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/12/21/punish-close-combat-forces-who-think-theyre-safe-with-codex-tau-empires-new-battlesuit-rules/
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Post by: Captain Joystick
I'm a suit fan, I won't apologize for it. It's why I started playing Tau and it'll be why I play them again if I ever do.
That said, we're good for suits. Everything niche they can comfortably fill has a decent plastic kit, and while it would be nice to have a new range of plastic vehicles that don't require a few dozen rubber bands to glue together right, they aren't the glaring hole that the army has right now.
I'm all for new plastic auxiliaries, completely redesigned kroot, completely redesigned vespid, gue'vessa conversion kits, maybe something completely new. Make them all different flavours of troops or component pieces in a multi-racial fire warrior squad that gives the faction some much needed board staying power.
And maybe have 'kroot/vespid/human pilot' be an artifact they can take.
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Post by: Sterling191
Mont'Ka Flamers are gonna be a thing methinks.
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Post by: bullyboy
I saved 3 suits from building until rules came out, let's see how I decide to equip them now.
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Post by: A Town Called Malus
Well, at least JSJ isn't sept locked or a relic but it being a stratagem rather than an innate ability of a battlesuit is stupid. It was a core ability for jetpack suits since their introduction.
But now I guess shooting in/into combat is the core ability of battlesuits whereas their previously core design mechanic is now a bonus you have to pay extra for.
Switch those abilities around.
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Post by: Dendarien
No AP on the burst cannon is kind of disappointing.
Was nice to see a preview of the support systems. I think Target Lock could become quite popular if ATS changes.
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Post by: bullyboy
Dendarien wrote:No AP on the burst cannon is kind of disappointing.
Was nice to see a preview of the support systems. I think Target Lock could become quite popular if ATS changes.
At least in Mont'ka you get a chance to increase the AP of the burst cannon
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Post by: dekinrie
Though the new montka rule will give ap 1 for the start
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Post by: Dendarien
bullyboy wrote: Dendarien wrote:No AP on the burst cannon is kind of disappointing.
Was nice to see a preview of the support systems. I think Target Lock could become quite popular if ATS changes.
At least in Mont'ka you get a chance to increase the AP of the burst cannon
True - it'll be interesting to see all the rules together for Tau, but so far I think what we have is promising.
Very curious to see if the ATS sticks around in its current form, it kind of feels like an auto take being a simple additional point to AP.
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Post by: Platuan4th
bullyboy wrote: Dendarien wrote:No AP on the burst cannon is kind of disappointing.
Was nice to see a preview of the support systems. I think Target Lock could become quite popular if ATS changes.
At least in Mont'ka you get a chance to increase the AP of the burst cannon
Also one of the Support Systems adds AP. Burst Cannon probably wasn't given any to prevent -3 AP Burst Cannons in Mont'Ka.
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Post by: Sterling191
Historically true, but we don't know what if any changes the ATS has gotten since it is frustratingly absent from this article.
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Post by: Valkyrie
The previewed strat specifically excludes Drones in the model count, so likely we're going back to attached Drones. Perhaps that's their Saviour Protocols nerf, just limiting how many Drones can actually do it to a unit.
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Post by: Twilight Pathways
The way they've listed Drop Threat Acquisition with the higher CP cost and bigger unit size first is making me irrationally angry. They normally do it the other way round.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Crisis Suits seem pretty tasty these days.
Or will.
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Post by: MajorWesJanson
I like the solution to tau melee on suits. Instead of fusion blades or such, they just treat their weapons like pistols.
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Post by: Tawnis
MajorWesJanson wrote:I like the solution to tau melee on suits. Instead of fusion blades or such, they just treat their weapons like pistols.
Yeah, and it doesn't inheritnly clash with them being better at shooting. You have to actually survive at least 1 round of melee combat to shoot at them, so your numbers are going to be fairly reduced by that point anyway.
On another note, anyone else notice that a unit of 9 crisis suits all sporting 3 burst cannons would now fire a whopping 162 shots? Is there any other single unit in the game that shoots anywhere near that much?
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Post by: EightFoldPath
A max size unit of Ork bikes. Automatically Appended Next Post: I've had a feeling for a while that there would be quite a lot of similarity between an Ork speedwaaagh list and a Tau Montka list. Obviously the Tau version has zero melee, but that just makes me think it will get one of: extra speed, extra survivability or extra dakka.
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Post by: Voss
Multi-tracker rules make me annoyed. Its like blast, but not like blast, and the last sentence fragment is an obvious rules question:
'Maximum 1 per model.'
question 1: per model in the _target_ unit, or the _firing_ unit?
question 2: allocated in order, I guess? Because it matters a lot if you get extra plasma rifle hits or extra burst cannon hits.
question 3: but wait, the first part of the rule is resolved 'each time _a ranged attack targets a unit_' so is the maximum of 1 per model for each weapon, or the entire unit's shooting as a whole?
Who the feth wrote this?
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Post by: tneva82
A Town Called Malus wrote:Well, at least JSJ isn't sept locked or a relic but it being a stratagem rather than an innate ability of a battlesuit is stupid. It was a core ability for jetpack suits since their introduction.
But now I guess shooting in/into combat is the core ability of battlesuits whereas their previously core design mechanic is now a bonus you have to pay extra for.
Switch those abilities around.
Better it's strategy so it's 1 unit. Gw has never done move shoot move without it being broken.
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Post by: Ordana
Voss wrote:Multi-tracker rules make me annoyed. Its like blast, but not like blast, and the last sentence fragment is an obvious rules question:
'Maximum 1 per model.'
question 1: per model in the _target_ unit, or the _firing_ unit?
question 2: allocated in order, I guess? Because it matters a lot if you get extra plasma rifle hits or extra burst cannon hits.
question 3: but wait, the first part of the rule is resolved 'each time _a ranged attack targets a unit_' so is the maximum of 1 per model for each weapon, or the entire unit's shooting as a whole?
Who the feth wrote this?
1 per model for the support system. because models can be given multiple support systems. this precludes you take 2 multitrackers to turn a 6 into 2 extra hits.
why would this ever be the firing unit Oo
not a thing. because you shoot weapons separately. so a 6 counts for the weapon that rolled the 6.
if you roll 6 6's for your Burst cannon (somehow) then you get 6 extra hits. see question 1, each Crisis suit can have 2-4 choices from weapons and/or support systems. only 1 of those can be a multi tracker. no taking 2 to turn 6 into 2 extra hits. (assuming the way you equip a Crisis suit doesn't change)
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Post by: A Town Called Malus
tneva82 wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote:Well, at least JSJ isn't sept locked or a relic but it being a stratagem rather than an innate ability of a battlesuit is stupid. It was a core ability for jetpack suits since their introduction.
But now I guess shooting in/into combat is the core ability of battlesuits whereas their previously core design mechanic is now a bonus you have to pay extra for.
Switch those abilities around.
Better it's strategy so it's 1 unit. Gw has never done move shoot move without it being broken.
I disagree. Tau jetpack units like Crisis and Stealth suits (I'll adress the Riptide) were never that problematic with JSJ as they could move a maximum of 12" a turn, which was catchable by most armies in the game through the use of bikes, cavalry, fast vehicles etc. You can also balance this put by giving them shorter range weapons (say, lower the range of the missile pod to 18"). If your army couldn't catch or outmanoeuvre a unit which can only move 12" a turn, then you have a very serious issue in army composition.
The real problematic units were those who could move much faster than that, such as jet bikes with their turbo move which made them uncatchable. This was especially problematic with the Eldar scatterlaser jetbikes, who coupled a 12" standard move, a 36" range gun, a 2d6" move in the assault phase and a turbo move to the other side of the board forgoing shooting if they were ever in danger of being caught. The Riptide was also problematic with its nova jump, coupled with its stupid durability and long range gun which could drop large blasts on the move.
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Post by: Aash
Voss wrote:Multi-tracker rules make me annoyed. Its like blast, but not like blast, and the last sentence fragment is an obvious rules question:
'Maximum 1 per model.'
question 1: per model in the _target_ unit, or the _firing_ unit?
question 2: allocated in order, I guess? Because it matters a lot if you get extra plasma rifle hits or extra burst cannon hits.
question 3: but wait, the first part of the rule is resolved 'each time _a ranged attack targets a unit_' so is the maximum of 1 per model for each weapon, or the entire unit's shooting as a whole?
Who the feth wrote this?
It reads to me like it’s a wargear/weapon option. As an example a battlesuit might be able to take 3 pieces of wargear such as a multi tracker, a target lock, a drone controller etc. the limitation means you can’t take more than one of this particular item per model.
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Post by: Ordana
The biggest problem with JSJ is that its unfun for your opponent to see an army hide behind cover, dash out to shoot and then hide again before you can retaliate.
I liked how it allowed you to be more aggressive and played a very 'in your face' suit list that often ended on the opposite side of the board but the general use of JSJ was simply unfun, a problem Tau generally suffer from anyway as a 'stand here and shoot you till your dead' army.
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Post by: Valkyrie
I also suspect it's so you can't take 3 Multi Trackers and have 6's exploding 3 times into 4 hits.
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Post by: A Town Called Malus
Ordana wrote:The biggest problem with JSJ is that its unfun for your opponent to see an army hide behind cover, dash out to shoot and then hide again before you can retaliate.
I liked how it allowed you to be more aggressive and played a very 'in your face' suit list that often ended on the opposite side of the board but the general use of JSJ was simply unfun, a problem Tau generally suffer from anyway as a 'stand here and shoot you till your dead' army.
Depends what you want from a game. At its core, JSJ was an ability which required the use of movement to counter (by denying a safe area to jump back to, for example), rather than simple brute application of firepower.
Which is where the jetbike turbocharge issue I mentioned comes into play by making it impossible to counter as the unit in question simply has too much movement to be pinned down. Which crisis and stealth suits never had.
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Post by: Ordana
An interesting point I saw mentioned elsewhere. The shoot and move is at the start of the shooting phase, if Markerlights work (roughly) the same way that means no markerlight support could be a big problem.
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Post by: Voss
Aash wrote:Voss wrote:Multi-tracker rules make me annoyed. Its like blast, but not like blast, and the last sentence fragment is an obvious rules question:
'Maximum 1 per model.'
question 1: per model in the _target_ unit, or the _firing_ unit?
question 2: allocated in order, I guess? Because it matters a lot if you get extra plasma rifle hits or extra burst cannon hits.
question 3: but wait, the first part of the rule is resolved 'each time _a ranged attack targets a unit_' so is the maximum of 1 per model for each weapon, or the entire unit's shooting as a whole?
Who the feth wrote this?
It reads to me like it’s a wargear/weapon option. As an example a battlesuit might be able to take 3 pieces of wargear such as a multi tracker, a target lock, a drone controller etc. the limitation means you can’t take more than one of this particular item per model.
Ah. That would make sense (though it would make more sense as a general rule for battlesuit hardpoint wargear, not specifically following the bit about how it affects ranged attacks. Or if it has to be on the gear for some reason, maybe first, before the effects).
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
More lethality. Precisely what 9th needs.
JSJ as a strat is just another crazy example of removing things that should just be special rules and turning them into strats. I'm surprised more suit support systems haven't been turned into strats (coming soon: Blacksun Filter, 1 CP on units with the 'Blacksun Filter' keyword!).
But nothing is worse than the "units of 6 or more". I don't know why GW decided that hordes in 9th start at 6 models and go up from there, but it is one of the most maddening things about this edition.
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Post by: tneva82
A Town Called Malus wrote:tneva82 wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote:Well, at least JSJ isn't sept locked or a relic but it being a stratagem rather than an innate ability of a battlesuit is stupid. It was a core ability for jetpack suits since their introduction.
But now I guess shooting in/into combat is the core ability of battlesuits whereas their previously core design mechanic is now a bonus you have to pay extra for.
Switch those abilities around.
Better it's strategy so it's 1 unit. Gw has never done move shoot move without it being broken.
I disagree. Tau jetpack units like Crisis and Stealth suits (I'll adress the Riptide) were never that problematic with JSJ as they could move a maximum of 12" a turn, which was catchable by most armies in the game through the use of bikes, cavalry, fast vehicles etc. You can also balance this put by giving them shorter range weapons (say, lower the range of the missile pod to 18"). If your army couldn't catch or outmanoeuvre a unit which can only move 12" a turn, then you have a very serious issue in army composition.
The real problematic units were those who could move much faster than that, such as jet bikes with their turbo move which made them uncatchable. This was especially problematic with the Eldar scatterlaser jetbikes, who coupled a 12" standard move, a 36" range gun, a 2d6" move in the assault phase and a turbo move to the other side of the board forgoing shooting if they were ever in danger of being caught. The Riptide was also problematic with its nova jump, coupled with its stupid durability and long range gun which could drop large blasts on the move.
Point isn't go fast. Point is be immune to return fire.
Move 0.1", shoot, move 0.1" back. You literally don't need more than 0.2" movement to a) shoot at target b) hide behind LOS blocking terrain.
GW has had 30 years+ history. Not single game move-shoot-move has been army ability in large quantities it's not been busted.
Thanks to obscuring it's even easier than ever before as you literally need to just smallest distance you can measure to move out of touching the terrain piece to hide behind.
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Post by: kodos
H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't know why GW decided that hordes in 9th start at 6 models and go up from there, but it is one of the most maddening things about this edition.
very simple, because it suits their box layout, having 5 different models with 1 being the unit commander in a spure, 2 sprues in a box, so better make 2 units of 5 instead a single unit of 10
or you go by the explanation of the developers at the very beginning of 9th, "we have a new crazy idea every 2 minutes (for new rules) and with the new edition we can but those finally into the game"
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Post by: Irbis
A Town Called Malus wrote:I disagree. Tau jetpack units like Crisis and Stealth suits (I'll adress the Riptide) were never that problematic with JSJ as they could move a maximum of 12" a turn, which was catchable by most armies in the game through the use of bikes, cavalry, fast vehicles etc.
Ah, yes, invalidating every single melee infantry army in the game is ""not problematic""
After all, it's not like there is at least six (close to a dozen+ if you include subfactions) armies that are billed as slower but more durable (read, losing by default to JSJ nonsense no matter the player skill)-- Oh wait, there are! You play fluffy DG, nurgle, Ianden, Salamanders or IG? Sucks to be you, eh?
Then there is the fact you ignore how bikes and cavalry had movement restrictions in past editions (put unit on stairs and laugh as ""catchable"" unit becomes immune to charge, or simply put it behind wall piece longer than 12" etc) or the fact that JSJ also completely invalidated shooting armies if the board had any LOS blocking terrain (and it really should). Really, to counter JSJ you needed either fast unit with heavy shooting (rather rare thing in 40K outside broken eldar gak) or very fast melee one that could be further invalidated with baiting one charge then dumping whole army overwatch into said unit.
Yup, such fun and ""balanced"" tactic, I have no idea why they got rid of it. Maybe they should bring riptidewings back too, or that equally broken drone gak list (the one that deepstriked off the table every turn, leaving opponent nothing to shoot at or charge), eh? After all, I am sure they can be ""countered"" somehow by the most broken DE or Eldar lists, makes them totally fine and totes not autowin against everything else, innit?
H.B.M.C. wrote:JSJ as a strat is just another crazy example of removing things that should just be special rules and turning them into strats. I'm surprised more suit support systems haven't been turned into strats (coming soon: Blacksun Filter, 1 CP on units with the 'Blacksun Filter' keyword!).
Maybe, just maybe, GW tried to bring JSJ after Tau complains but it being such unfun to play against, completely broken mechanic they tried to limit 'all other armies can do squat against it' issue by making it less cancerous and slightly harder to cheese?
There are stratagems that should be just unit rule (*cough* Transhuman on all primaris to give them fluff durability back *cough*) but JSJ is not one of them
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Post by: Da Boss
Irbis, don't ever change.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I feel sick!!!
3
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Post by: Grimskul
Huh, GW are actually addressing the issue of the one shot anti tank weapons relatively properly for once. I guess we'll have to see how they price the Hammerhead since GW often overvalues these types of things, but it's a start! Actually feels like it'll do more than just spamming High Yield Missile Pods or Fusion Blasters. You'll probably still want to save a reroll for the wound roll though.
Let's hope this is a sign for LR Vanquisher Cannons to get similar treatment!
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Post by: Sterling191
Holy gak
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Interesting it’s not a Heavy Railgun…which suggests Broadsides might get the same basic weapon rules?
I’m not at all up on Tau, just in case I made a tit out myself with that comment!
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Post by: Grimskul
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Interesting it’s not a Heavy Railgun…which suggests Broadsides might get the same basic weapon rules? I’m not at all up on Tau, just in case I made a tit out myself with that comment! I believe Broadsides have Heavy Rail Rifles, Hammerhead one has always been called the Railgun. The Heavy Rail Cannon is something that's mounted on the Forgeworld Flyers the Tau have. I don't think it's unreasonable to see that Heavy Rail Rifles get a similar glow up that the Railgun did though. They probably inflict 1 mortal wound per successful wound roll instead. Not sure about stats, maybe D3+3 damage? Maybe S12 or S10, AP-5. Currently they're 2 shots each though, so they'd have to go down to one shot each otherwise they'd be far better than the Hammerhead due to the quantity of shots.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Ahhh, that makes sense.
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Post by: Nevelon
Um, wow. That seems a little over the top. Like what I’d expect to find on titans, not 40k scale units.
That’s pretty much going to one shot anything.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I’m hoping they’re One Per Slot!
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Post by: Grimskul
Nevelon wrote:Um, wow. That seems a little over the top. Like what I’d expect to find on titans, not 40k scale units.
That’s pretty much going to one shot anything.
To be fair, that IS the point of a Hammerhead. It's been a recurring issue that the LR Vanquisher Cannon and Hammerhead Railgun were touted as the premier anti-tank variants but were consistently outperformed by generalist weapons because of their low rate of fire and lack of reliability in terms of actually getting through invulns, to hit and wound mods and swingy damage. They should be able to reliably pop a transport a turn, GW just needs to price the HH accordingly.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Yup. Minimum 10 wounds per, erm, wound. Max 12.
Two should be able, with just a smidge of jammy rolling, delete pretty much anything in regular 40K.
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
Am i wrong or is it literally a 5 in 6 chance of one-shotting Guilliman?
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Unless he has some kind of per phase damage limitation? Seems so.
Also, guess which kit is currently sold out on GW!
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
This is fantastic news.
I was worried that games might go to turn 3. With this kind of lethality, we can pretty much ensure that games won't even need a second turn.
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Post by: Grimskul
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:Am i wrong or is it literally a 5 in 6 chance of one-shotting Guilliman?
GW really want to make sure you buy those Victrix Guard so you can't sniperoonies ol Guilly off his feet.
Daemon Primarchs must be sweating though.
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Post by: AduroT
People were clearly fielding too many vehicles and needed a reason not to.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Not sure Tau would worry overmuch about some weedy bodyguards. Not like they’re short of firepower!
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Post by: tneva82
Nope. With cp reroll good chance of one shotting dreadnought. Less than 1/6 one shotting leman russ.
Still good but for expensive 1 shot weapon it needs to be
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Post by: Grimskul
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Not sure Tau would worry overmuch about some weedy bodyguards. Not like they’re short of firepower!
Mainly the shenanigans from hiding bodyguards behind cover, while still within the 3" bodyguard range of Guilliman so he can be visible but still untargetable. I guess Tau do still have SMS, but I'm not sure if they can reliably kill Victrix Guard on their own.
All I can say is that I'm glad Ghazzy can only take 4 wounds a phase lol.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Wonder what the Ion Cannon is gonna look like. I’ve never been a fan since Tau first arrived, but I think it got quite good last edition or the edition before?
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Post by: Gadzilla666
You feel sick? This makes my Fellblade's Accelerator Cannon look sad. I'm fine with Tau getting the MWs and "ignore invuls" stuff because of " Superior Alien Technology" or whatever, just give me the Dd3+6.
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Post by: Sterling191
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Wonder what the Ion Cannon is gonna look like. I’ve never been a fan since Tau first arrived, but I think it got quite good last edition or the edition before?
They were "okay" in 8th, mostly by virtue of the fact that the railgun was utter garbage.
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Post by: Grimskul
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Wonder what the Ion Cannon is gonna look like. I’ve never been a fan since Tau first arrived, but I think it got quite good last edition or the edition before?
I think it was technically last edition? It's basically a flat 3 damage battlecannon when you overcharge it, but you only ever take 1 mortal wound if you roll any one's to hit. Otherwise its a flat 2 AP-2 plasma cannon with three shots. Not great, but not terrible for the time it was released. Obviously far behind the curve now. It's main issue was that it was competing against battle suits and Riptides, who far outgunned and were way more survivable.
In terms of new stats? We haven't seen any ion weapons yet leaks wise, but I assume the overcharge at the very least is significantly stronger. It'll probably feature more of that anti-elite infantry focus to avoid overlapping roles with the railgun.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I’m just gonna predict current profile, but maybe Heavy 5?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
And Submunitions is a strat now, because of course it fething is...
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Probably the trade off of making the Railgun AT filth.
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Post by: Grimskul
H.B.M.C. wrote:And Submunitions is a strat now, because of course it fething is...
It definitely sucks, but to be fair did anyone ever use the submunition profile to begin with? It was god-awful, D6 shots S6 AP-1 blast? At least with the strat it seems semi-useful. I'm not sure if GW would have given them an actual decent profile to use since people would be complaining even more that it does literally everything.
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Post by: jaredb
Love the update on the railgun, It's finally the devastating anti-tank gun it should be. I'm scared to go against it, but this is awesome.
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
Jesus imagine this with Longstrike and his re-rolling wound rolls.
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Post by: Psychocouac
In the current codex, the BS3+ is due to the targeting array or it's the base profil? Because if targeting array is now reroll to hit then maybe the HH is now BS4+.
That would still allow to boost it to 3+ with laser designation. (and reroll on top of that.)
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Post by: MalfunctBot
Psychocouac wrote:In the current codex, the BS3+ is due to the targeting array or it's the base profil? Because if targeting array is now reroll to hit then maybe the HH is now BS4+.
That would still allow to boost it to 3+ with laser designation. (and reroll on top of that.)
Hammerheads are 3+ base. Targetting Array is a brand new thing I'm pretty sure.
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Post by: Sarouan
Good. At last the Railgun Hammerhead is becoming fearsome again. Not like previous edition where it was considered like a wimp.
And yeah, that's what it does : destroy enemies big things.
Don't worry, I'm pretty sure it will still die fast to the enemy's own anti-vehicle weaponry.
9th edition lethality is here to stay, anyway.
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Post by: AduroT
Submunitions, yet another way to not let Necrons use their Reanimation Protocols!
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Post by: Oguhmek
Wow, that's pretty disgusting. My poor Doomsday Cannons look like flashlights in comparison.
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Post by: Voss
So, the official paradigm shift is MSU infantry swarms always, right?
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Post by: bullyboy
Just wait until we see the Eldar hvy wraithcannons.
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Post by: Mr_Rose
Voss wrote:So, the official paradigm shift is MSU infantry swarms always, right?
This thing still deletes two marines per shot or four guardsmen since the MW are additional damage. MSU might not fare so well either on that basis.
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Post by: Laughing Man
Mr_Rose wrote:Voss wrote:So, the official paradigm shift is MSU infantry swarms always, right?
This thing still deletes two marines per shot or four guardsmen since the MW are additional damage. MSU might not fare so well either on that basis.
Assuming it can wound them through THP.
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Post by: MajorWesJanson
Not quite back to its glory days of being capable of one-shot ting land raiders, but a ridiculous monster gun.
GW needs to start buffing toughness for heavy vehicles and monsters so they aren't quite so easy to wound. If LD can now go to 11, land raiders and even titans should not be capped at t8.
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Post by: Irbis
Oh great, more utterly broken rules and stupid damage inflation. Just what the game needs
Observation #1, this thing utterly negates void shields. You know, the things that literally throw the railgun projectile into the warp. Somehow by magic it doesn't happen in this case and the target is still damaged Hell, even the ability to negate ++ saves is beyond idiotic, because superheavy energy weapons can't do that despite being ideal weapon to collapse energy fields, while something using easily deflectable by magnetic fields munitions laughs at shielding, warp fields, daemons telling physics to shut up, or impossibly advanced necron or eldar energy fields. Hell, this thing somehow can guess where holofielded or warp shifted target is, guess magic again
Observation #2, I like how lancer laser destroyer, or necron doom cannons, two weapons that used to be much better than this gak, are utterly useless next to it now. Hell, two railguns of Astraeus Superheavy Tank have half the strength, 1/3 of AP (and no ++ ignore), and 1/4 of damage (plus no MW) despite being larger and more advanced. At this rate both armies will need new books within next six months with every stat tripled just to catch up
Observation #3, I like how comically stupid the submunition rule is. When you fire at unit of two Terminators, on average one gets slightly wounded, but if you fire at three, they magically focus on one and kill him despite being dispersed projectiles. Oh, and you get doubly penalized for buying storm shields or chapter traits increasing durability because these will do nothing (despite working on every other anti-infantry weapon in the game). Or playing daemons/custodes/harlequins/necrons/etc that get their basic save stat negated somehow despite paying a premium for it (pity no one told the Emperor he could have just glued a dozen of these things to the Golden Throne instead of sitting on it personally to call it a day). To make it even worse, this also reliably counters hordes and turns Knight armies into ex-parrot making it anti-everything delete button. That's just crap game design. And I like how article calls it "short ranged" because frak you, covering whole table from inside of your deployment zone is nothing these days
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Post by: Grimskul
MajorWesJanson wrote:Not quite back to its glory days of being capable of one-shot ting land raiders, but a ridiculous monster gun.
GW needs to start buffing toughness for heavy vehicles and monsters so they aren't quite so easy to wound. If LD can now go to 11, land raiders and even titans should not be capped at t8.
I think this is potentially a sign of the "changes" they'll be bringing to 10th edition, since the lack of granularity is really starting to show with the older profiles of units for both weapons and unit stats. Weapons really need to spread out past the S8-10 that a lot of anti-tank weaponry was capped at and vehicles need both more wounds and higher T to reflect their ability to withstand chip damage. You can tell GW is currently band-aiding this issue through the widespread application of -1D and invuln. profileration amongst vehicles/monsters. If GW can get their heads out of their printers and do a game wide update for weapons and vehicle stats, I think we can finally have anti-tank guns like lascannons actually do their job while not being outdone by more generalist stuff like plasma.
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Post by: Laughing Man
Irbis wrote:Observation #1, this thing utterly negates void shields. You know, the things that literally throw the railgun projectile into the warp. Somehow by magic it doesn't happen in this case and the target is still damaged Hell, even the ability to negate ++ saves is beyond idiotic, because superheavy energy weapons can't do that despite being ideal weapon to collapse energy fields, while something using easily deflectable by magnetic fields munitions laughs at shielding, warp fields, daemons telling physics to shut up, or impossibly advanced necron or eldar energy fields. Hell, this thing somehow can guess where holofielded or warp shifted target is, guess magic again
Eh? Void shields work just fine against railguns. Depending on how many you have, you might even regen a few after being shot.
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Post by: Arbitrator
Don't worry, I'm sure people won't spam these. GW wouldn't expect it's players to be meanies.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Sub-munitions is the best blast weapon in the game too. It doesn't even need to roll to hit and rolls a die for every model with no max. It caps at 8MW.... Oh no not a paltry 8! It gets through hit mods, cover, armor, invulns....
73593
Post by: xeen
It is nice to see an actual AT single shot gun that looks like it might actually be effective. I agree there are a bunch of weapons in the game that could warrant this level of upgrade to their AT potential. Personally I think the 3MW are a bit much. I think it would have been better to just make it D2d3+6 to get the same effect but without the weird quirks of the MW making this weapon great against small infantry squads (as MW carry over) or having a better chance of surviving because a units has a ignore MW ability (like GK). Or at least the 3MW should only trigger against Vech/Monsters (which I would bet what this gets nerfed to in six months).
Also, this is typical GW in that they hand out Invulnerable saves like candy, then go oops to much, and then make a bunch of stuff that ignores invulnerable saves, and I bet when codex daemons comes out there will be some kind of rule for like their main characters or relic that says "You can take your invulnerable save even if the weapon would ignore it", just so we can go full circle.
Just my thoughts.
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Post by: Voss
Arbitrator wrote:Don't worry, I'm sure people won't spam these. GW wouldn't expect it's players to be meanies.
Ugh. The Tau FAQ is going to be like the Iron Hands FAQ. 'We didn't expect people to use the rules we wrote this way...'
111146
Post by: p5freak
Warhammer Community wrote :
The railgun is not the only big hitter getting a major update in the new Codex: T’au Empire – would you believe it isn’t even the strongest weapon in their arsenal?
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
I live in fear of what the Stormsurge will bring to the table(top).
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Post by: Dudeface
I really wouldn't worry, isn't a stompa in melee "a stronger weapon" etc. the community site usually just latch onto some obscure metric to make something sound ludicrous.
The rail gun however I do like, I just think something is off. The ignores invuln is the big issue but I also understand why they don't want it just sat on a shelf because people scoff at one shot weapons into invulns.
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Post by: tneva82
Irbis wrote:Oh great, more utterly broken rules and stupid damage inflation. Just what the game needs
Observation #1, this thing utterly negates void shields. You know, the things that literally throw the railgun projectile into the warp. Somehow by magic it doesn't happen in this case and the target is still damaged Hell, even the ability to negate ++ saves is beyond idiotic, because superheavy energy weapons can't do that despite being ideal weapon to collapse energy fields, while something using easily deflectable by magnetic fields munitions laughs at shielding, warp fields, daemons telling physics to shut up, or impossibly advanced necron or eldar energy fields. Hell, this thing somehow can guess where holofielded or warp shifted target is, guess magic again
Inv save is only part of void shield.
Also void shields dontt neccessarily throw projectiles into warp. That's one of several fluff explanations.
And in any case for sake of balance it needs to be pretty darn good to make it worth it. If it doesn't ignore inv then basically any 1 shot at weapon needs to cost minus points to be worth considering
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Post by: zend
What a complicated way of bringing back Instant Death. Without anyway to gain Immortal Warrior.
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Post by: Ordana
Psychocouac wrote:In the current codex, the BS3+ is due to the targeting array or it's the base profil? Because if targeting array is now reroll to hit then maybe the HH is now BS4+.
That would still allow to boost it to 3+ with laser designation. (and reroll on top of that.)
that was a 4th or 5th edition thing where the tanks had a +1 BS upgrade and the Hammerhead got it by default.
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Post by: rabidguineapig
Grimskul wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:And Submunitions is a strat now, because of course it fething is...
It definitely sucks, but to be fair did anyone ever use the submunition profile to begin with? It was god-awful, D6 shots S6 AP-1 blast? At least with the strat it seems semi-useful. I'm not sure if GW would have given them an actual decent profile to use since people would be complaining even more that it does literally everything.
Haven’t posted on here in forever, but I’m honestly just amazed that anyone has managed to complain this wasn’t strong enough.
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Post by: Ordana
xeen wrote:It is nice to see an actual AT single shot gun that looks like it might actually be effective. I agree there are a bunch of weapons in the game that could warrant this level of upgrade to their AT potential. Personally I think the 3MW are a bit much. I think it would have been better to just make it D2d3+6 to get the same effect but without the weird quirks of the MW making this weapon great against small infantry squads (as MW carry over) or having a better chance of surviving because a units has a ignore MW ability (like GK). Or at least the 3MW should only trigger against Vech/Monsters (which I would bet what this gets nerfed to in six months).
Also, this is typical GW in that they hand out Invulnerable saves like candy, then go oops to much, and then make a bunch of stuff that ignores invulnerable saves, and I bet when codex daemons comes out there will be some kind of rule for like their main characters or relic that says "You can take your invulnerable save even if the weapon would ignore it", just so we can go full circle.
Just my thoughts.
They hand out invul saves like candy because no one brought vehicles that didn't have an invul, because 9th edition AT guns are so damn effective compared to the wound count of tanks.
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Post by: brainpsyk
Well, we have to assume this will be costed appropriately. For comparison, the current Tank Commander (BS3) with a Vanquisher cannon is 190 points w/hull heavy bolter, and the AdMech Onager Dunecrawler with Neutron Laser comes in at a WHOPPING 120 points.
Given the current codex creep, that puts the Hammerhead at roughly 75 points.
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Post by: ERJAK
I hate this thing. This gun right here is the reason this gun will never see play.
It's literally its own best counter. This gun can never get popular because the thing it kills best is itself.
The only meaningful meta impact it could have is making rhino chassis' even dumber investments. Automatically Appended Next Post: Arbitrator wrote:Don't worry, I'm sure people won't spam these. GW wouldn't expect it's players to be meanies.
You literally can't spam these. If you try hammerhead spam and run into another Tau player who runs hammerhead spam, whoever goes first automatically wins. Also, even with submunitions, no infantry army cares about the railgun profile.
It's a gun designed to punish imperial/Chaos players for trying to bring rhino chassis and Tau players for trying to bring hammerheads. Which is the real reason it's so stupid.
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Post by: stratigo
ERJAK wrote:I hate this thing. This gun right here is the reason this gun will never see play.
It's literally its own best counter. This gun can never get popular because the thing it kills best is itself.
The only meaningful meta impact it could have is making rhino chassis' even dumber investments.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arbitrator wrote:Don't worry, I'm sure people won't spam these. GW wouldn't expect it's players to be meanies.
You literally can't spam these. If you try hammerhead spam and run into another Tau player who runs hammerhead spam, whoever goes first automatically wins. Also, even with submunitions, no infantry army cares about the railgun profile.
It's a gun designed to punish imperial/Chaos players for trying to bring rhino chassis and Tau players for trying to bring hammerheads. Which is the real reason it's so stupid.
If tau have any competitive legs, this suppresses the very existence of vehicles. Like, Space marines and Custodes are full out of the running cause dreadnoughts are a dead model in the meta if Tau have a place.
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Post by: stratigo
Da Boss wrote:Tau as Imperium Mk2: A Little Bit Nicer is just not that interesting. I prefer them as a foil to the Imperium than a Mini-Me. YMMV, I know a lot of people don't agree with that.
If the tau are the good guys then it makes GW look extremely bad with all the focus they put on the ubermensch stormtroopers of their evil fascist empire. It's easier to swallow the horrible fascism if everything sucks.
tneva82 wrote:Has decent abilities to start and t3 isn't as late in aos3 as it's in 40k. 2 to 3 double turn for example is hell of a lot more powerful than 1 to 2. There's reason why going 2nd is rewarded on round 3.
AoS regularly is decided in the first two turns
Grumpy Gnome wrote:I have had enough “the ends justifies the means” in my real life… for my gaming I would like a choice in a fictional setting to not have to accept the ends justifies the means.
What sold me on 40K as a teenager in the 80’s was what appeared to be an epic last stand of Crimson Fist Imperial Marines, back to back, holding against what is implied are impossible odds. The Alamo, Roarkes Drift, Arnhem… but without the historical baggage associated with those situations. Then it turns out the Imperium of Man is pretty irredeemable. The Eldar turn out to be pretty dodgy too. So I quit the game and lost interest in the 40k universe. Until the Tau came out. That surprised me and intrigued me. But of course that could not last. The idea of modeling humans in service to the “Greater Good” of the Tau lost all appeal.
I get that it is hard to sell violence as a game in any kind of clean and noble context given current widespread cultural beliefs. When it is done it is often misinterpreted… hence the whole need to make such a statement against hate outside the game world. I just think GW has made an artistic mistake not to have an example of a culture that has not succumbed to fear and the temptation of the easy path. Which is how I see having the ends justify the means. That is pure fear speaking.
Folks want to like 40k and it’s grimmest of grimdark, cool for them. Enjoy. I am just expressing why I do not like it and what I think GW could do to change it if they wanted to. I know some folks would then complain because not everyone is going to agree. I know some folks ignore GW and see the Imperial Marines as noble Heroes to look up to. Some folks might see making Tau “good guys” as GW supporting socialism the same way some folks might see GW painting the Imperium as “good guys” appears to support religious fundamentalism and fascism.
It is a tricky thing making one of the most widely recognized and financially successful wargaming IP in the world.
40k isn't the ends justify the means. The people who think this are falling for fascist bs, GW itself is pretty clear that the ends don't justify the means, because the ends are monstrous and unjustifiable in their own right. The imperium COULD be run in a non monstrous and radically more efficient way and humans living in it would be better off for the change. Humanity in 40k is not preserved by the fascism or brutality of the imperium.
Da Boss wrote:If the Imperium is winning that means the bad guys are winning, because they're still deeply xenophobic genociders. It makes the 40k setting even more dark, because the wrongheaded bad guy faction is winning, essentially being rewarded for being evil.
The problem is that the setting revolves around the imperium and having a faction that is legitimately and earnestly good makes GW's decision to focus the lens on the fascist hellstate deeply problematic in a way that their dissonance between "look cool space marines" and "The imperium is bad guys" already kind of presents us. It's more problematic for the Tau to be genuinely good, because then, well, why are we spending all our time focused on the fascist hellstate?
Arbitrator wrote:The dislike for Tau being less morally black compared to other factions always seemed to come from that segment who wanted their ANGELS OF DEATH FOR THE EMPEROR to be perceived as the only 'righteous' figures.
The tau also use a caste system and that is always inevitably awful, and it would be quite a lot of dissonance for me to overlook just the basic core ideas behind the tau to see them as good (it's also why I get a giggle every time people call the tau communist. Like, their society is based off someone's half remembered read of Plato's Republic, not the communist manifesto)
Grimskul wrote:Huh, GW are actually addressing the issue of the one shot anti tank weapons relatively properly for once. I guess we'll have to see how they price the Hammerhead since GW often overvalues these types of things, but it's a start! Actually feels like it'll do more than just spamming High Yield Missile Pods or Fusion Blasters. You'll probably still want to save a reroll for the wound roll though.
Let's hope this is a sign for LR Vanquisher Cannons to get similar treatment!
They have to overvalue it or this thing completely closes off like 3 entire types of models by itself. You literally can't play tanks, monsters, or superheavies into a hammerhead unless the hammerhead is overcosted
Sarouan wrote:Good. At last the Railgun Hammerhead is becoming fearsome again. Not like previous edition where it was considered like a wimp.
And yeah, that's what it does : destroy enemies big things.
Don't worry, I'm pretty sure it will still die fast to the enemy's own anti-vehicle weaponry.
9th edition lethality is here to stay, anyway.
Unless you're a damage 2 army, then your lethality is more akin to smacking people with pool noodles.
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Post by: stonehorse
Because 40k needed more lethality?
Forces with 3 of these are going to just dominate, old Tau players will more than likely have 3 or kore of these in their collection, so it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine seeing Tau with 3 of these becoming a regular sight.
Knights are boned hard by these, really hard, as in, of the Knights can make it to turn 3 they have been either very lucky, or the Tau player was asleep at the wheel.
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Post by: Ordana
stonehorse wrote:
Because 40k needed more lethality?
Forces with 3 of these are going to just dominate, old Tau players will more than likely have 3 or kore of these in their collection, so it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine seeing Tau with 3 of these becoming a regular sight.
Knights are boned hard by these, really hard, as in, of the Knights can make it to turn 3 they have been either very lucky, or the Tau player was asleep at the wheel.
If the Knights go first they simply kill the Hammerheads providing they can get LoS. Unless something drastically changes Hammerheads are not hard to kill.
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Post by: tneva82
If knights can see them going first terrain has been designed pretty badly
49827
Post by: MajorWesJanson
Knowing typos are a thing on Warhammer community, it could be d6 + 3 damage in the proper codex.
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Post by: Voss
MajorWesJanson wrote:Knowing typos are a thing on Warhammer community, it could be d6 + 3 damage in the proper codex.
Don't blame that on WarCom. Usually when there have been weapon errors on the preview articles, the exact same errors show up in the proper codex.
But given how pumped they are about the killing power, this seems intentional, not something to be waved off as a 'mistake.'
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Post by: FactoruM
MajorWesJanson wrote:Knowing typos are a thing on Warhammer community, it could be d6 + 3 damage in the proper codex.
It could even end up being 3D6 damage.
No wait that will be saved for the FAQ
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
FactoruM wrote: MajorWesJanson wrote:Knowing typos are a thing on Warhammer community, it could be d6 + 3 damage in the proper codex.
It could even end up being 3D6 damage.
No wait that will be saved for the FAQ
36 Damage
Aim for the sky!
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Post by: oni
Clearly GW had a large quantity of Hammerhead inventory they wanted to move. This just seems way over the top. I'd like to hear what feedback the play testers had and if it was listened to. It seems like this one weapon is going to place an extreme amount of importance on getting 1st turn.
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Post by: Hankovitch
The sky takes 3 mortal wounds, and is removed from the table. Automatically Appended Next Post: oni wrote:
It seems like this one weapon is going to place an extreme amount of importance on getting 1st turn.
It has Fly, doesn't it? The Tau player can put it anywhere out of LOS, and then not have to worry about getting into optimal firing position whether they go first or second.
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Post by: endlesswaltz123
Ap-6 and ignore invulnerables, high damage as well as causing 3 mortal wounds?
What on is there in the game that gets a save against that? The reason why I'm asking is because they could have just made it dish out mortal wounds instead rather than unnecessary rules and bloat to say it ignores invuls etc.
Anyway, this is a massive issue of codex creep, yet again. I actually am not bothered by the amount of damage it can cause objectively, it should be able to comfortably one shot a rhino.
I am bothered that this is a huge leap in damage dealing potential halfway through the edition when nothing else in any codex is even close to this.
10 minimum damage after a hit and a wound.
I also really dislike how they are just throwing around invulnerable save ignoring weapons again now. This should be on 1 or 2 units in the whole game (not counting methods to cause mortal wounds). If invulnerable saves are such an issue that there must be multiple means to ignore them then there should be less invulnerable saves.
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Post by: oni
Hankovitch wrote: oni wrote: It seems like this one weapon is going to place an extreme amount of importance on getting 1st turn.
It has Fly, doesn't it? The Tau player can put it anywhere out of LOS, and then not have to worry about getting into optimal firing position whether they go first or second. I'm willing to bet that FLY has been removed for many the same reasons it was removed from the SM Repulsor and Repulsor Executioner. I'm hoping that the Hammerhead is BS4 and has an innate rule that gives it -1 To Hit if it moves.
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Post by: Necronmaniac05
My Necron codex continues to cry in the corner. Tau gun does minimum 10 damage. Nightbringer a shard of the death god does somewhere between 1 and 6 depending on how lucky you are.
Every codex just leaves me wondering WTF they were thinking when they wrote the Necron book.
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Post by: BrotherGecko
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I am bothered that this is a huge leap in damage dealing potential halfway through the edition when nothing else in any codex is even close to this.
Nonsense, tons of stuff can do this kind of damage just not typically in one single shot and only shot. A bunch of units can do more damage in CC than the hammerhead.
Tau being an army without any high damage melee units instead have so far one unpointed unit that is pretty fragile that can keep up with stuff like knights on damage output at range.
Save the salt for whatever broadsides become.
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Post by: Ordana
Necronmaniac05 wrote:My Necron codex continues to cry in the corner. Tau gun does minimum 10 damage. Nightbringer a shard of the death god does somewhere between 1 and 6 depending on how lucky you are.
Every codex just leaves me wondering WTF they were thinking when they wrote the Necron book.
The curse of a start of edition book.
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Post by: triplegrim
Does the broadsides use the same railgun?
Bc I got 6 of them. But no hammerhead.
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Post by: BrotherGecko
triplegrim wrote:Does the broadsides use the same railgun?
Bc I got 6 of them. But no hammerhead.
Slightly weaker gun. So maybe d3+3 with 1MW or something.
But on a much more durable platform. And you get up to 9.
100848
Post by: tneva82
Necronmaniac05 wrote:My Necron codex continues to cry in the corner. Tau gun does minimum 10 damage. Nightbringer a shard of the death god does somewhere between 1 and 6 depending on how lucky you are.
Every codex just leaves me wondering WTF they were thinking when they wrote the Necron book.
Nightbringer takes max 3 damage for phase. Nightbringer laughs at tau.
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Post by: beast_gts
No, it has a rail rifle IIRC. But don't forget:
The railgun is not the only big hitter getting a major update in the new Codex: T’au Empire – would you believe it isn’t even the strongest weapon in their arsenal?
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Post by: John Prins
BrotherGecko wrote: endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I am bothered that this is a huge leap in damage dealing potential halfway through the edition when nothing else in any codex is even close to this.
Nonsense, tons of stuff can do this kind of damage just not typically in one single shot and only shot. A bunch of units can do more damage in CC than the hammerhead.
Tau being an army without any high damage melee units instead have so far one unpointed unit that is pretty fragile that can keep up with stuff like knights on damage output at range.
Save the salt for whatever broadsides become.
This. The Tau get crap for melee while other armies roll in with jet packs and thunderhammers getting 2 full rounds of close combat per turn.
Is it a hard counter to Imperial Knights? Maybe? If Hammerheads are still T7 W13 with no invulnerable save, knights will tear down Hammerheads faster than the Hammerheads can kill off knights. And when the new Knight codex drops it'll get counters to deal with this like half-damage strats and saves against mortal wounds.
But salt is gonna flow for sure.
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Post by: Mr_Rose
endlesswaltz123 wrote:Ap-6 and ignore invulnerables, high damage as well as causing 3 mortal wounds?
What on is there in the game that gets a save against that? The reason why I'm asking is because they could have just made it dish out mortal wounds instead rather than unnecessary rules and bloat to say it ignores invuls etc.
Anything with a 2+ save, a Stormshield equivalent, and cover.
On a 6+
Oh and wound-shrugs don’t care either.
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
So it's a not-so-invulnerable save now, eh? Automatically Appended Next Post: 9th ed is just:
Buff units' defenses -> nobody can kill anything -> buff units' offense -> everything dies too fast -> buff units' defenses...
All done with an ever-increasing stack of special rules on every unit.
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Post by: p5freak
tneva82 wrote:Necronmaniac05 wrote:My Necron codex continues to cry in the corner. Tau gun does minimum 10 damage. Nightbringer a shard of the death god does somewhere between 1 and 6 depending on how lucky you are.
Every codex just leaves me wondering WTF they were thinking when they wrote the Necron book.
Nightbringer takes max 3 damage for phase. Nightbringer laughs at tau.
Tau will get a weapon which does damage beyond the X wounds per phase limit. Tau will get a weapon which will instant kill anything. You hit, you wound, target is removed from play.
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Post by: Necronmaniac05
tneva82 wrote:Necronmaniac05 wrote:My Necron codex continues to cry in the corner. Tau gun does minimum 10 damage. Nightbringer a shard of the death god does somewhere between 1 and 6 depending on how lucky you are.
Every codex just leaves me wondering WTF they were thinking when they wrote the Necron book.
Nightbringer takes max 3 damage for phase. Nightbringer laughs at tau.
But its not just the NB. Necrons guns are either D:1 or D: lol spin the wheel and find out! I don't criticise GW much for their rules writing because 40k can never be perfectly balanced but its like the folks writing the Necron COdex and the folks writing say the drukhari and Ad-Mech (and now Tau) codexes just never spoke to each other or anything. I mean how hard is it to say 'Look, maybe we shouldn't give so much random damage because some of the later codexes we are working on don't have it'. Why did GW even think that random damage was a good idea? I mean really the idea that a lascannon might only do 1 damage is laughable really.
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Post by: kodos
wich is exactly the point why people criticize their rules writing, not because there must be perfect balance, but because they need to start to play their own game and talk to each other while doing that
and not just writing every crazy idea into a book and let people pay to playtest it
but as long as people like pay to playtest, why should they change it
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Post by: Voss
They've never really grasped the idea that the entire edition (and all the books) needs to be treated as a whole and given constraints and limitations. Too often, the army books seem like a competition between egos, and one author has to 'surpass' the previous author, all at the expense of the game as a whole.
I don't think they've ever heard of design documents (or at least not doing them in advance).
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Post by: Marshal Loss
Wonderful, this sounds like a ton of fun to play against
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Post by: Mr Morden
I am pleased that something other than stupid suits is getting something but yeah....thats not going to be fun.
High Damage and AP - all good. Ignore Invulns - hmm no.
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Post by: Doohicky
So Basically Tau with a hammerhead can, with a single vehicle, destroy morty in two turns.
Tau bring some of these guys vs knights and it's not even a game is it?
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Post by: The Black Adder
Voss wrote:They've never really grasped the idea that the entire edition (and all the books) needs to be treated as a whole and given constraints and limitations. Too often, the army books seem like a competition between egos, and one author has to 'surpass' the previous author, all that the expense of the game as a whole.
I don't think they've ever heard of design documents.
The sad part is they supposedly tested all the codexes with the play testers whilst writing the edition so they did write them together initially. The sadder part is they clearly didn't listen to the feedback - evidence abounds in the codexes we now have sight of and the play testers have also said as much publicly.
The railgun is bonkers and I hate almost everything about it. Reading the article I was thinking, is it April 1st already?
Strength 14, fine. AP -6, fine. Everything else, bonkers. Some amount of special sauce is fine, but ignoring invulnerable saves, dealing additional mortal wounds and having a high damage profile is just too much. It reads like the profile for and Eldar distortion weapon mounted on a super heavy chassis.
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Post by: BertBert
Can't wait to see what the stormsurge can do
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Post by: Laughing Man
Doohicky wrote:So Basically Tau with a hammerhead can, with a single vehicle, destroy morty in two turns.
Tau bring some of these guys vs knights and it's not even a game is it?
It takes three Hammerheads to kill Morty in 2 turns, 80% of the time. It also takes three Hammerheads to kill a single Knight in a turn, ignoring hit and wound calcs. Given what's returning fire, the Knights almost certainly will trade up.
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Post by: Voss
That's the Lord of War, right? It'll follow the Mork(Gork)anauts and Monoliths into the bin and be worse.
It'll be (once again) Riptide o'clock.
Maybe the Sun Shark, too, if anyone can convince opponents of what the bombs' rules are (I'm envisioning an entire word salad at this point).
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Post by: John Prins
Laughing Man wrote:Doohicky wrote:So Basically Tau with a hammerhead can, with a single vehicle, destroy morty in two turns.
Tau bring some of these guys vs knights and it's not even a game is it?
It takes three Hammerheads to kill Morty in 2 turns, 80% of the time. It also takes three Hammerheads to kill a single Knight in a turn, ignoring hit and wound calcs. Given what's returning fire, the Knights almost certainly will trade up.
Hammerheads, unless they get a big stat upgrade, are going to be glass cannons. You'll get one shot and then die. And who knows what the point cost on that gun will jump to.
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Post by: Brad Gamma
So just plugging some stuff quickly into a simple mathhammer calc.
A hammerhead with a railgun, rerolling its shot does on average 5.5 damage to a knight. 50% of the time, even re-rolling hits, it will do nothing.
My leman russ demolishers will do 5.4 damage (with grinding advance) to a knight, with a much less swingy range of outcomes. (Thats with no re-rolls, regular russ.
Now the 24inch vs 72inch is a huge difference, and I don't know the rules for marker lights. But I could stick 3 multimeltas on my russ and average 9 damage a turn at 24 inch range, so it really would be a question of how many points is a hammerhead + railgun.
I think people are forgetting how good a one shot weapon needs to be to make it worthwhile, especially as the primary gun on the tank.
Obviously theres lot of strats, other units, combos that could make tau crazy overpowered, but the stats on this gun don't particularly scare me.
EDIT: Didn't realise the tanks hit on a 3+, was corrected below. Changes the maths a bit, but not enough to make me worried
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Post by: Mr Morden
Brad Gamma wrote:So just plugging some stuff quickly into a simple mathhammer calc.
A hammerhead with a railgun, rerolling its shot does on average 5.5 damage to a knight. 50% of the time, even re-rolling hits, it will do nothing.
Doesn't it do D3+6 plus 3 Mortal Wounds if it wounds?
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Post by: Brad Gamma
Yes a wounding shot will do 11 wounds on average, but only 75% of shots will hit (4+ with re-roll) and 33.3% of that will fail to wound, so on average it will do 5.5 damage.
You end up with
50% of doing nothing
16.7% chance of doing 10 damage
16.7% chance of doing 11 damage
16.7% chance of doing 12 damage
EDIT: Apologies they hit on a 3+, this is all wrong! Still not super worried.
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Post by: JNAProductions
Don’t they hit on a 3+?
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Post by: Brad Gamma
Whoops, you are correct sir. i'll edit posts to say i was wrong.
So only like... a 40% chance of doing nothing
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Post by: xttz
Currently:
Hammerheads hit on 3+
Longstrike also gives them +1 to hit
Longstrike hits on 2+ natively with +1 to wound rolls, for basically 2+/2+ before rerolls.
Some of those rules may have since changed of course.
More worryingly is how many other units have access to railguns that ignore invulns. Can Broadsides also do it with a bit less damage? What about Tidewalls or any FW units whose weapons get adjusted in line with the codex?
One shot can be quite swingy and unreliable. 10+ shots alongside getting first turn is a whole different situation.
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