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I just want to take crisis suits as troops again. CRISIS WING ASSEMBLE!

 Ahtman wrote:
I just want to take crisis suits as troops again. CRISIS WING ASSEMBLE!

I still miss the old metal XV15 Stealth suits. Do people still use them somehow? They were my first fully painted Tau unit.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

I still miss the old metal XV15 Stealth suits. Do people still use them somehow? They were my first fully painted Tau unit.

I see them run as their XV25 successors not uncommonly.

I like people saying how great Kauyon is, thinking that a 9th game is ever going to get to turn 3 or 4.

 Ahtman wrote:
I just want to take crisis suits as troops again. CRISIS WING ASSEMBLE!

You can pretty much guarantee that there will be a way to make them Obj. Sec. for a turn or two.

TheMostGood wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I just want to take crisis suits as troops again. CRISIS WING ASSEMBLE!

You can pretty much guarantee that there will be a way to make them Obj. Sec. for a turn or two.

There'll definitely be an army of renown at some point where you'll be able to basically take them as an Obsec choice.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

I still miss the old metal XV15 Stealth suits. Do people still use them somehow? They were my first fully painted Tau unit.

I see them run as their XV25 successors not uncommonly.

Same. My friend runs them as the normal suits with the actual 25's as the unit leader.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I just want to take crisis suits as troops again. CRISIS WING ASSEMBLE!

I still miss the old metal XV15 Stealth suits. Do people still use them somehow? They were my first fully painted Tau unit.

I have 18 of the old XV15 suits, and I actually like the look more than the XV25's. It's funny how they still mention the older XV15 suits in the fluff. In past editions I used to love taking 18 stealth suits with 36 accompanying stealth gun drones. Throw in Shadowsun and a lot of infiltrating kroot and it made for a really annoying and uncommon alpha strike.

 Da Boss wrote:
Lying isn't "bad", it's just bad. Murdering people is also bad. Treating non-Tau members of the Empire as second class is bad. The Ethereals lying and manipulating people is bad.

I preferred them as genuinely altruistic and genuinely a multispecies coalition, rather than another empire that's just less evil than the main one. I don't think that needs much explanation, does it? We likely just disagree about the degree to which certain actions are objectionable, and it's unlikely we'll find common ground there.

I also preferred it when the Tau were portrayed as more altruistic than currently. Just like a comedy show is better with at least one serious character.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StraightMan

It does not seem boring to me in the bigger picture. Quite the opposite. What gets boring is when every faction is just another shade of grey… and pretty dark grey at that. A villainous character in an altruistic society stands out. Just as an altruistic character in a villainous society.

But it seems Games Workshop does not even want shades of grey.

They want all the factions to be horrible in the fluff. And not just the factions. Everybody.

Direct from GW…

“There are no goodies in the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

None.”


As quoted from….


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/

And that irks me. 40k has gotten too grimdark for my taste. It lacks context and subtlety. The evil corruption is pervasive and all consuming.It is hopeless and makes the conflict fundamentally pointless. It has jumped the shark you might say.

As an aside… I have Kroot and none of the Gundam robots… but my Kroot are not for 40k so I suppose I am not the target audience.

I think with that specific bit it's to make it explicitly clear there are no Clark Kents or Peter Parkers in 40k, people who are good through and through. There are people who are good but ultimately fight for some kind of bad be it the top of the ladder with the Imperium and forces of Chaos (i.e. space fascists) or the bottom with the T'au and Non-Dark Aeldari (imperial powers that are better but still bad because Imperialism is inherently bad).
For example, Ibram Gaunt is a good man who tries to prevent loss of life wherever he can but ultimately is a servant of a fascist empire that has the executive power to execute people who run from battle. Good person, bad system, but is fanatically loyal to that system and therefore from a modern perspective Ibram Gaunt is still a bad guy.

I agree.

It doesn't mean that there are no good people (persons, aliens, xenos, creatures?), it's just they would not be called "good" as we define it because, quite simply, there's no chance to be good in this universe.

It's grim dark.

Especially when there are things in this universe that cannot be reasoned with and only live for your destruction. In a situation where compromise to maintain the moral high ground can result in your annihilation. There's little room for charity. For kindness.

The T'au are no different. I would argue out of all the factions, theirs is probably the most pleasant and tolerable, such as it is. There are certainly undertones of dictatorship and brainwashing going on and they have a rigid caste system that is often unfair and unforgiving. The often claim to be benevolent and honorable, but can go back on their word, just like with any other sentient creature (or human experience if we look at ourselves).

This universe simply does not leave any room for the possibility of a benevolent faction that is only good and never does bad things. It quite honestly wouldn't be believable, despite how ridiculous the setting can be in general.

Farsight is kind of a good example of this. He's a "good" guy in a sense. He's honorable. He thinks for himself and tries to do what is "right". But he also wields a sword that steals life from the people he kills with it. Granted, the lore implies he doesn't realize it but I mean, come on, he's got to know that the sword is helping him in someway. He isn't that naïve.

Would you say he's a bad guy for stealing the life essence from his victims (whether he knows or not)? That's not a "good" act. It's an evil one no matter how you try to slice it.

Personally, for me, I think he knows damn well what it is doing. But he also knows how important he is to his people now. He knows that he has work to do to help the T'au survive in a universe that they've been lied to about.

It all depends on what you're willing to do for victory.

I have had enough “the ends justifies the means” in my real life… for my gaming I would like a choice in a fictional setting to not have to accept the ends justifies the means.

What sold me on 40K as a teenager in the 80’s was what appeared to be an epic last stand of Crimson Fist Imperial Marines, back to back, holding against what is implied are impossible odds. The Alamo, Roarkes Drift, Arnhem… but without the historical baggage associated with those situations. Then it turns out the Imperium of Man is pretty irredeemable. The Eldar turn out to be pretty dodgy too. So I quit the game and lost interest in the 40k universe. Until the Tau came out. That surprised me and intrigued me. But of course that could not last. The idea of modeling humans in service to the “Greater Good” of the Tau lost all appeal.

I get that it is hard to sell violence as a game in any kind of clean and noble context given current widespread cultural beliefs. When it is done it is often misinterpreted… hence the whole need to make such a statement against hate outside the game world. I just think GW has made an artistic mistake not to have an example of a culture that has not succumbed to fear and the temptation of the easy path. Which is how I see having the ends justify the means. That is pure fear speaking.

Folks want to like 40k and it’s grimmest of grimdark, cool for them. Enjoy. I am just expressing why I do not like it and what I think GW could do to change it if they wanted to. I know some folks would then complain because not everyone is going to agree. I know some folks ignore GW and see the Imperial Marines as noble Heroes to look up to. Some folks might see making Tau “good guys” as GW supporting socialism the same way some folks might see GW painting the Imperium as “good guys” appears to support religious fundamentalism and fascism.

It is a tricky thing making one of the most widely recognized and financially successful wargaming IP in the world.

Yeah like I'm fine with some bad Tau, it'd be unrealistic not to have bad tau. But I like the contrast of a genuinely integrationist, multicultural federation at least TRYING (even if they fail a lot) to do things right. It makes for a good contrast, and shines a light on the Imperium being gratuitously awful rather than justified in what they do. If you force the Tau into the same mold, I just don't think it's that interesting by comparison. It can certainly be that the Tau's utopian ideals clash with reality and they struggle to stay true to them - that's fine! It can even be the case that they're ultimately doomed. No problem. It's the implication that no, they're actually pretty rotten at the core and their beliefs are a sham that's boring to me. We've already got that, it's called the Imperium of Man and it's cool to have that once in your setting but not that exciting to have it twice.

Haven't you heard, every faction must be the Imperium of Man?

 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah like I'm fine with some bad Tau, it'd be unrealistic not to have bad tau. But I like the contrast of a genuinely integrationist, multicultural federation at least TRYING (even if they fail a lot) to do things right. It makes for a good contrast, and shines a light on the Imperium being gratuitously awful rather than justified in what they do. If you force the Tau into the same mold, I just don't think it's that interesting by comparison. It can certainly be that the Tau's utopian ideals clash with reality and they struggle to stay true to them - that's fine! It can even be the case that they're ultimately doomed. No problem. It's the implication that no, they're actually pretty rotten at the core and their beliefs are a sham that's boring to me. We've already got that, it's called the Imperium of Man and it's cool to have that once in your setting but not that exciting to have it twice.

I quite agree.

It was also interesting for me to go back and look again at that iconic image I remember… to a certain degree misremember… from my childhood. There are details I forgot, perhaps overlooked, as a teenager projecting my own wish for heroes to admire. The satirical aspect of it was completely missed by me back then. Of course I was a young man on the path to not long after enlist in the infantry. I wonder how aware GW is as a company of how often their customers interpret their products different from what they intend, especially given the marketing so often targets teenagers.

 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah like I'm fine with some bad Tau, it'd be unrealistic not to have bad tau. But I like the contrast of a genuinely integrationist, multicultural federation at least TRYING (even if they fail a lot) to do things right. It makes for a good contrast, and shines a light on the Imperium being gratuitously awful rather than justified in what they do. If you force the Tau into the same mold, I just don't think it's that interesting by comparison. It can certainly be that the Tau's utopian ideals clash with reality and they struggle to stay true to them - that's fine! It can even be the case that they're ultimately doomed. No problem. It's the implication that no, they're actually pretty rotten at the core and their beliefs are a sham that's boring to me. We've already got that, it's called the Imperium of Man and it's cool to have that once in your setting but not that exciting to have it twice.

The Tau are in an interesting place narratively. I think most people agree that where the Tau should land at is having to crawl through the same mud and slime and grime that the Imperium and in fact most other civilized races in 40k have to go through but instead of being broken by it, come out at the other end battered and bruised but ultimately keeping their ideals.

Unfortunately, I think their introduction was a bit botched. Nothing too overt, no one thing that anyone could point to, but overall the way they were introduced put them into somewhat of a category of their own. I think this has led to them being categorized as not fitting with the setting.

In short, when they were introduced and I've not seen anything particularly change over the years, they more or less had everything handed to them on a silver platter, whether through the lore itself or narratively. Infighting? Eldar put a stop to that with the Ethereals. Technology to put them on par with the Imperium? Given that too. Damocles Crusade? Warp stormed, had a few arguments, then eventually called off to fight off Behemoth. Chaos? Whoops, low psychic presence or potential. So no FTL because of that? Well, yes, but actually no, and they'll get new drives or wormholes or what have you as they need to expand. Okay, what about massive Ork WAAAGH!s or hive fleets or a follow-up Crusade? Yeah, no. Civil War? No, except that one time, but even then it's not like a war of annihilation on either side as you'd expect.

They've never really suffered a significant loss. Sure, they've lost random planets here and there to splinter fleets or orks or dark eldar or Imperial shenanigans, but they've never really had that culturally shattering moment that all the other sapient factions have. They're not a dying race; they're not struggling to claw onto what they have left; they're not hiding in their own little pocket of the universe doing what they want because they couldn't survive in the greater community. No, they're expanding, spreading their ideals and their Greater Good and so on, and it's all so easy for them.

And I think that's what makes them clash with the setting. The way they're set up, they feel like they can't lose. Every codex, every lore update, they'll have more--more technology, more ships, more weapons, faster engines, more colonies, more spheres of expansions, more client races. In 40k, no race should get as big as the Tau have without their teeth having gotten kicked in at least a few times. They haven't, so it feels disingenuous that they get to pretend to be the happy, shiny good guys when they haven't been tested.

Altima wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah like I'm fine with some bad Tau, it'd be unrealistic not to have bad tau. But I like the contrast of a genuinely integrationist, multicultural federation at least TRYING (even if they fail a lot) to do things right. It makes for a good contrast, and shines a light on the Imperium being gratuitously awful rather than justified in what they do. If you force the Tau into the same mold, I just don't think it's that interesting by comparison. It can certainly be that the Tau's utopian ideals clash with reality and they struggle to stay true to them - that's fine! It can even be the case that they're ultimately doomed. No problem. It's the implication that no, they're actually pretty rotten at the core and their beliefs are a sham that's boring to me. We've already got that, it's called the Imperium of Man and it's cool to have that once in your setting but not that exciting to have it twice.

The Tau are in an interesting place narratively. I think most people agree that where the Tau should land at is having to crawl through the same mud and slime and grime that the Imperium and in fact most other civilized races in 40k have to go through but instead of being broken by it, come out at the other end battered and bruised but ultimately keeping their ideals.

Unfortunately, I think their introduction was a bit botched. Nothing too overt, no one thing that anyone could point to, but overall the way they were introduced put them into somewhat of a category of their own. I think this has led to them being categorized as not fitting with the setting.

In short, when they were introduced and I've not seen anything particularly change over the years, they more or less had everything handed to them on a silver platter, whether through the lore itself or narratively. Infighting? Eldar put a stop to that with the Ethereals. Technology to put them on par with the Imperium? Given that too. Damocles Crusade? Warp stormed, had a few arguments, then eventually called off to fight off Behemoth. Chaos? Whoops, low psychic presence or potential. So no FTL because of that? Well, yes, but actually no, and they'll get new drives or wormholes or what have you as they need to expand. Okay, what about massive Ork WAAAGH!s or hive fleets or a follow-up Crusade? Yeah, no. Civil War? No, except that one time, but even then it's not like a war of annihilation on either side as you'd expect.

They've never really suffered a significant loss. Sure, they've lost random planets here and there to splinter fleets or orks or dark eldar or Imperial shenanigans, but they've never really had that culturally shattering moment that all the other sapient factions have. They're not a dying race; they're not struggling to claw onto what they have left; they're not hiding in their own little pocket of the universe doing what they want because they couldn't survive in the greater community. No, they're expanding, spreading their ideals and their Greater Good and so on, and it's all so easy for them.

And I think that's what makes them clash with the setting. The way they're set up, they feel like they can't lose. Every codex, every lore update, they'll have more--more technology, more ships, more weapons, faster engines, more colonies, more spheres of expansions, more client races. In 40k, no race should get as big as the Tau have without their teeth having gotten kicked in at least a few times. They haven't, so it feels disingenuous that they get to pretend to be the happy, shiny good guys when they haven't been tested.

To be fair, the entire setting changed with Primaris marines, Guilliman’s awakening etc. The Imperium is not a degrading craphole anymore holding on to ancient technology and desperately extracting geneseed from fallen Marines to keep the numbers up in a fight they are destined to lose but refuse to accept. Now, they got new unlimited supplies of Super Marines, new technology every release, new unit types, and they’re kicking the bad guys in their teeth! Sure the fight is still tough yaddayaddayadda but the whole thing’s changed nevertheless. The Imperium is evolving now, and everyone’s expecting other Primarchs to return/awaken in the coming years. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if Primaris marines launch an offensive against the eye of terror.

 Therion wrote:


To be fair, the entire setting changed with Primaris marines, Guilliman’s awakening etc. The Imperium is not a degrading craphole anymore holding on to ancient technology and desperately extracting geneseed from fallen Marines to keep the numbers up in a fight they are destined to lose but refuse to accept. Now, they got new unlimited supplies of Super Marines, new technology every release, new unit types, and they’re kicking the bad guys in their teeth! Sure the fight is still tough yaddayaddayadda but the whole thing’s changed nevertheless. The Imperium is evolving now, and everyone’s expecting other Primarchs to return/awaken in the coming years. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if Primaris marines launch an offensive against the eye of terror.

Contrarily: Meanwhile in the Dark Imperium on the other side of the rift, entire systems are being reduced to the level they were at during Old Night due to the loss of the Astronomicon, declaring independence with no repercussions because they feel they've been abandoned, or just outright turning to Chaos openly to try and survive. The literal divide in the galaxy means the Imperium is in two different conditions depending on where you are in relation to Terra.

If the Imperium is winning that means the bad guys are winning, because they're still deeply xenophobic genociders. It makes the 40k setting even more dark, because the wrongheaded bad guy faction is winning, essentially being rewarded for being evil.

I hate to break it to you, but if anyone is winning, the bad guys are winning. Also if no one is winning, then the bad guys are probably still winning.

It is just Imperial propaganda. The Tau are the good guys and muy macho. Don't listen to the haters.

 Da Boss wrote:
If the Imperium is winning that means the bad guys are winning, because they're still deeply xenophobic genociders. It makes the 40k setting even more dark, because the wrongheaded bad guy faction is winning, essentially being rewarded for being evil.

Well it's all there plain on the first page of the rulebook - "In the grim dark future of the 41st millennium, there is only war..."

It's in the source of the concept of "grimdark" - there are no good guys.

 Oguhmek wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
If the Imperium is winning that means the bad guys are winning, because they're still deeply xenophobic genociders. It makes the 40k setting even more dark, because the wrongheaded bad guy faction is winning, essentially being rewarded for being evil.

Well it's all there plain on the first page of the rulebook - "In the grim dark future of the 41st millennium, there is only war..."

It's in the source of the concept of "grimdark" - there are no good guys.

It is also the source of the concept "grimderp", to be completely fair.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I just want to take crisis suits as troops again. CRISIS WING ASSEMBLE!

I still miss the old metal XV15 Stealth suits. Do people still use them somehow? They were my first fully painted Tau unit.

You can make a pretty decent stand-in with an XV25 and a Palantine Enforcer torso. Just finished off a squad of 3 and they look pretty convincing.

I can just imagine reps from all 40K factions at Bad-Anon: One Game at a Time.

 Oguhmek wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
If the Imperium is winning that means the bad guys are winning, because they're still deeply xenophobic genociders. It makes the 40k setting even more dark, because the wrongheaded bad guy faction is winning, essentially being rewarded for being evil.

Well it's all there plain on the first page of the rulebook - "In the grim dark future of the 41st millennium, there is only war..."

It's in the source of the concept of "grimdark" - there are no good guys.

Nids are neither good or bad though.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Oguhmek wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
If the Imperium is winning that means the bad guys are winning, because they're still deeply xenophobic genociders. It makes the 40k setting even more dark, because the wrongheaded bad guy faction is winning, essentially being rewarded for being evil.

Well it's all there plain on the first page of the rulebook - "In the grim dark future of the 41st millennium, there is only war..."

It's in the source of the concept of "grimdark" - there are no good guys.

Nids are neither good or bad though.

All they want is hugs and snacks. Is that so wrong?

can we go back to the tau codex please

Folks would talk about said codex...if there was any new information.

 Nevelon wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Oguhmek wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
If the Imperium is winning that means the bad guys are winning, because they're still deeply xenophobic genociders. It makes the 40k setting even more dark, because the wrongheaded bad guy faction is winning, essentially being rewarded for being evil.

Well it's all there plain on the first page of the rulebook - "In the grim dark future of the 41st millennium, there is only war..."

It's in the source of the concept of "grimdark" - there are no good guys.

Nids are neither good or bad though.

All they want is hugs and snacks. Is that so wrong?

A big appetite is a good thing specially if you have planets full of burgers.

To be honest the idea of Tau being grim dark is boring and not how I see them at all. I would love to see something along the lines of combined army like in Infinity. Loads of smaller unique alien squads/types under the Tau banner.