Spinning off from another thread, because I think this is a concept which is too interesting not to put to its own discussion.
So not long ago, Guilliman returned to the fold. Whilst the circumstances of his return are…well a bit dodgy…his return has been broadly welcomed by an Imperium in dire need of him. And whilst he’s not exactly In Charge, he’s still a political force to be reckoned with.
But…for those who may be opposed to him, for whatever reason? He could easily be painted as a hypocrite. By his authority were Chapters limited in size. By his authority were Primaris secretly created by someone who is borderline Heretek. He very much risks becoming The New Horus. By no means Chaos Corrupted, but wielding far more power than a single being The Isn’t The Emperor should.
He’s also literally without Peer. And that I think is going to be part of his problem. Yes, he is absolutely competent, more so than anyone else the Imperium has. But…if no-one would dare naysay you? That can be dangerous. Not just from an operational point of view, but an ongoing authority. Whilst it seems an unlikely occurrence, if he suffers a significant military failure? His reputation may become undermined.
A brother Primarch returning to the fold strikes me as being far less likely to hold Guilliman in awe. More willing, able and better placed to challenge decisions being made. Not necessarily in a confrontational manner, but a “if I try to poke holes in it, we’re more likely to end up with a solid plan, with as little overlooked as possible”.
Consider even Horus had his Mournival, four Captains chosen to challenge Horus. To be his naysmiths. To test his plans by subjecting them to free and open criticism without fear of disfavour nor punishment.
Sure, a single brother does not a Mournival make. But, I would argue it would give others the chance to see Guilliman can be challenged, and can change his mind. A little encouragement going a long way and that.
Certainly should I end up in a position of authority (it’s still possible career wise!), I’d prefer those in the team i lead to be confident in challenging me. It keeps you honest, keeps you grounded.
Right now, I’m not at all sure there’s anyone in The Imperium who would feel comfortable doing that. Even Calgar.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’d also argue a retuned brother would be someone of equal experience, potentially in a different specialism.
The Khan, for instance. His expertise in speed combat might offer a perspective Guilliman lacks, or doesn’t think would work.
To me another Primarch would un-balance the things GW tries to keep balanced.
Sure, they have Abbadon and Traitor Primarchs, but we already have Guilliman WITH powerful people like Celestine, Belisarius, etceteras.
Following your idea, these guys, for sure minor than a Primarch, are still those who 'question' Guilliman's absolute authority with their power, or at least advice him. Another Primarch would overshadow Guilliman storywise right now imho, we must wait hundreds of years pass before seeing another great catastrophe / big events like Guilliman, Cadia, Cicatrix Maledictum etcetera.
I don't think GW will reintroduce another Primarch until their sales numbers really start tanking again. Part of the whole schtick for Guilliman right now is how alone he feels, not only because he's a Primarch but because he's effectively a man out of time like Captain America, where he sees all the ideals and things he's fought for ground into a grotesque parody of what he once knew. Adding a primarch would change that dynamic and I'm not sure in a good way and personally it would feel like it's just becoming 30K lite, since Primarchs inevitably dominate the spotlight when they get involved. It's bad enough that many SM named characters have plot armour, throwing further Primarchs in the mix would remove what little narrative tension there is already.
It's a big narrative shake up that they'll likely use to generate buzz and depending on who is brought back, can generate a potential schism or semi-Cold war in the Imperium between a Pro-Guilly and Pro (other Primarch camp). I can't see the Lion being enthused with how Guilliman has become the Regent of the Imperium after what he saw with Imperium Secundus.
Alternatively, they could kill Guilliman in a tragic "last stand", close the rift, and leave 40K as a sandbox setting for people to tell their own stories, instead of a narrative one subject to good or ill choices that effect everyone.
I think they are very hesitant to do so, Primarchs screwed up the game when they dropped and were very hard for them to balance around. So i dont think we will be seeing another loyalist any time soon, traitor maybe because they just make them beat stick units.
Personally I'd rather see him struggle on dealing with the growing political realities of the current era of the setting. Adding more Primarchs would likely increase the power base of the Imperium and part of what keeps the setting going is not letting one force get their head up.
Imperium starting to get united shuts down so many other elements because its a vast thing. United it would be near unstoppable.
It's like unleashing the entire might of the Tyranids; uniting the Necrons under 1 leader; placing all Orks under the biggest boss eva etc.... Most of those forces could decimate and wipe out most of the other races IF they were united under a single banner for long enough.
Constant political pressures and internal faction elements have constantly prevented that.
I think one Primarch carries the story well when he's got to match himself against many of the other powerful Imperial political and military forces. Just how long CAN he hold onto his power; how long will it be before other groups dislike what he does and work against him, even whilst working for the good of the Imperium.
Then again perhaps another brother returning could spark that off; the Imperium fragmenting down two extremes; one the pure belief in the Emperor as dictated by his direct Primarchs; the other by the various priest groups of the Imperium.
RomulanSoldier wrote:Alternatively, they could kill Guilliman in a tragic "last stand", close the rift, and leave 40K as a sandbox setting for people to tell their own stories, instead of a narrative one subject to good or ill choices that effect everyone.
It still is, or rather, it always had other narratives and sweeping events/choices. The things are just bigger, but because the galaxy is even larger than any of those, you still can do whatever you want in the setting. There's no limit on how many homebrew regiments, craftworlds, and Chapters out there. Your unique hero can still do whatever it was they were doing before the Rift. Just because Guilliman or Calgar or Abaddon or Creed or Eldrad are doing their thing, it doesn't mean you can't too.
Every primarch coming back will be heavily flawed.
The crazed Wulven Logan
The 1 handed dorn
The mentally broken Corvus
The deranged vulkan
The undead sanguinus
And the corrupted lion el Johnson
It’s a bit cheesy that guilliman wasn’t that flawed and only has to wear a exoskeleton to stay alive.
At this point in 40K's life, I'd like to see another primarch appear.
One who isn't happy with Guilliman's hypocrisy and threatens to lead the Imperium into another civil war. One who puts imperial faith to the test as it brings out how flawed its leaders are/were.
40K was always about the long, slow death of mankind, not it's redemption, and with Gulliman alone, that's what its becoming.
Man has no chance, it's just about how its flame will be snuffed out.
gungo wrote: Every primarch coming back will be heavily flawed.
The crazed Wulven Logan
The 1 handed dorn
The mentally broken Corvus
The deranged vulkan
The undead sanguinus
And the corrupted lion el Johnson
It’s a bit cheesy that guilliman wasn’t that flawed and only has to wear a exoskeleton to stay alive.
Dorn with 1 arm isn’t a flaw. Especially in a universe with cybernetics, biomancy, the ability to regrow organs, etc. Hell, even if you want to say he’ll never be as powerful of a combatant without his true form it’ll still be a massive boon for the Imperium. Now they have one of the greatest defensive generals they ever had, in a time of constant defensive war.
He’s probably the second best Primarch for the Imperium after Gman.
gungo wrote: Every primarch coming back will be heavily flawed.
The crazed Wulven Logan
The 1 handed dorn
The mentally broken Corvus
The deranged vulkan
The undead sanguinus
And the corrupted lion el Johnson
We have no idea what state Leman Russ would be in these days - I can't rule out a Wulfen form, but I wouldn't assume it, either.
As noted above, Dorn having lost a hand shouldn't be a major issue - at the very least, cybernetics are a thing.
I'd be less worried about Corax's mental state, and more his shadow form, really.
I don't think we have any idea what Vulkan's mental state is like following the War of the Beast, do we, even assuming he survived?
Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus shouldn't make a return at all.
What evidence do you that the Lion is corrupted?
And I find it interesting that you forgot about the Khan altogether, though he'd probably like it that way.
I wouldn't mind seeing Ferrus, but not 'real' ferrus: I'd like to see an update and return of the Legion of the Damned, and 'burning ghost ferrus' would give a nice unique character alongside Centurius with the old man's skull.
I think the only good choice for another primarch is the lion because I think it would ultimately be a bad thing for the imperium.
At first it would be seen as a god hero returning to help save the imperium from its enemies, but I think he would be appalled to see what the empire had become and wouldn’t be able to make peace with it like RG has done. He would directly challenge RG on everything he has done since his return and want to take control of the imperium but not see a way to do it without causing a civil war because he know half of the imperium would be behind him and half with RG and he doesn’t want to be the new horus.
Therefore he takes control of the DA chapter and all of the unforgiven basically having control of a massive legion. The problem is he can’t trust them becuase he’s scarred by Luther’s betrayal and he is now obsessed with finding Luther and chypher and this is what he direct most of the unforgivens resources on, ignoring RGs orders. RG doesn’t know what to do because we know what happens when space marines are sent to teach other space marines a lesson.
Basically there is another great rift in the imperium
gungo wrote: Every primarch coming back will be heavily flawed.
The crazed Wulven Logan
The 1 handed dorn
The mentally broken Corvus
The deranged vulkan
The undead sanguinus
And the corrupted lion el Johnson
We have no idea what state Leman Russ would be in these days - I can't rule out a Wulfen form, but I wouldn't assume it, either.
As noted above, Dorn having lost a hand shouldn't be a major issue - at the very least, cybernetics are a thing.
I'd be less worried about Corax's mental state, and more his shadow form, really.
I don't think we have any idea what Vulkan's mental state is like following the War of the Beast, do we, even assuming he survived?
Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus shouldn't make a return at all.
What evidence do you that the Lion is corrupted?
And I find it interesting that you forgot about the Khan altogether, though he'd probably like it that way.
There is literally Almost nothing known about what happened to khan… he chased after some raiders and disappeared into webway or something.. no one knows…
Vulkan is a perpetual that was killed over and over until he went insane..
Corax went emo into the warp
Lion was reportedly taken by the watchers in the dark but he’s the least known about… it basically comes down to is Luther lying?
Sanguinius is reportedly in stasis too…
Ferrus should be dead.. he was decapitated.
We really don’t know how much of dorn is around as all that is left of him was a hand.
Guilliman was literally the least broken primarch.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrFickle wrote: I think the only good choice for another primarch is the lion because I think it would ultimately be a bad thing for the imperium.
At first it would be seen as a god hero returning to help save the imperium from its enemies, but I think he would be appalled to see what the empire had become and wouldn’t be able to make peace with it like RG has done. He would directly challenge RG on everything he has done since his return and want to take control of the imperium but not see a way to do it without causing a civil war because he know half of the imperium would be behind him and half with RG and he doesn’t want to be the new horus.
Therefore he takes control of the DA chapter and all of the unforgiven basically having control of a massive legion. The problem is he can’t trust them becuase he’s scarred by Luther’s betrayal and he is now obsessed with finding Luther and chypher and this is what he direct most of the unforgivens resources on, ignoring RGs orders. RG doesn’t know what to do because we know what happens when space marines are sent to teach other space marines a lesson.
Basically there is another great rift in the imperium
your assuming Luther and cypher are bad… they haven’t been corrupted by chaos in all these years which lends me to beleive they aren’t exactly following chaos either.
gungo wrote: Every primarch coming back will be heavily flawed.
The crazed Wulven Logan
The 1 handed dorn
The mentally broken Corvus
The deranged vulkan
The undead sanguinus
And the corrupted lion el Johnson
We have no idea what state Leman Russ would be in these days - I can't rule out a Wulfen form, but I wouldn't assume it, either.
As noted above, Dorn having lost a hand shouldn't be a major issue - at the very least, cybernetics are a thing.
I'd be less worried about Corax's mental state, and more his shadow form, really.
I don't think we have any idea what Vulkan's mental state is like following the War of the Beast, do we, even assuming he survived?
Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus shouldn't make a return at all.
What evidence do you that the Lion is corrupted?
And I find it interesting that you forgot about the Khan altogether, though he'd probably like it that way.
There is literally Almost nothing known about what happened to khan… he chased after some raiders and disappeared into webway or something.. no one knows…
Vulkan is a perpetual that was killed over and over until he went insane..
Corax went emo into the warp
Lion was reportedly taken by the watchers in the dark but he’s the least known about… it basically comes down to is Luther lying?
Sanguinius is reportedly in stasis too…
Ferrus should be dead.. he was decapitated.
We really don’t know how much of dorn is around as all that is left of him was a hand.
Guilliman was literally the least broken primarch.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrFickle wrote: I think the only good choice for another primarch is the lion because I think it would ultimately be a bad thing for the imperium.
At first it would be seen as a god hero returning to help save the imperium from its enemies, but I think he would be appalled to see what the empire had become and wouldn’t be able to make peace with it like RG has done. He would directly challenge RG on everything he has done since his return and want to take control of the imperium but not see a way to do it without causing a civil war because he know half of the imperium would be behind him and half with RG and he doesn’t want to be the new horus.
Therefore he takes control of the DA chapter and all of the unforgiven basically having control of a massive legion. The problem is he can’t trust them becuase he’s scarred by Luther’s betrayal and he is now obsessed with finding Luther and chypher and this is what he direct most of the unforgivens resources on, ignoring RGs orders. RG doesn’t know what to do because we know what happens when space marines are sent to teach other space marines a lesson.
Basically there is another great rift in the imperium
your assuming Luther and cypher are bad… they haven’t been corrupted by chaos in all these years which lends me to beleive they aren’t exactly following chaos either.
But the lion would wake up and his last memory would be of his fight against Luther, good or bad he would seek him out relentlessly. I’m assuming he would have the same attitude to chaperone once he was brought up to speed by Azreal
RomulanSoldier wrote:Alternatively, they could kill Guilliman in a tragic "last stand", close the rift, and leave 40K as a sandbox setting for people to tell their own stories, instead of a narrative one subject to good or ill choices that effect everyone.
It still is, or rather, it always had other narratives and sweeping events/choices. The things are just bigger, but because the galaxy is even larger than any of those, you still can do whatever you want in the setting. There's no limit on how many homebrew regiments, craftworlds, and Chapters out there. Your unique hero can still do whatever it was they were doing before the Rift. Just because Guilliman or Calgar or Abaddon or Creed or Eldrad are doing their thing, it doesn't mean you can't too.
This. I think of the named characters as convenient figures to center novels around. But a given 40k novel almost never has any real impact on the setting. The Salamanders Omnibus spent a lot of time talking about Vulkan's treasure hunt and how those relics (and eventually vulkan) could reshape the galaxy. There's a story where we meet a sapient... nanobot murder swarm... thing that allegedly has the power to wipe sectors off the map. I haven't heard of him before or sense that book. A couple of phoenix lords have books plus all their backstory about the rhana dandra, but they've never prevented me from telling the story of my own farseer's schemes and adventures. A novel can revolve around Ahriman becoming the most powerful sorcerer in the galaxy and pulling off planet-shattering spells, but Ahriman is barely even on the radar in terms of most major factions' concerns.
As for brothers returning... I'm less interested in how they'd impact Guilliman and more interested in how they'd go about trying to deal with the 41st millenium. Like, Guilliman becoming the mini-Emperor makes sense given his administration skills and extremely ordered blandness. But I don't see Russ standing around debating paperwork with him all day. I see Russ or the Khan frowning at Guilliman, then heading off to do their own crusades on the areas of the map Guilliman can't reach or be bothered with. I see Vulkan going from place to place making smaller sections of the map independently strong and self-reliant rather than relying on sweeping, Indomitus-style crusades. I see Corax identifying some of the bigger players among the imperium's enemies and cutting their legs out from under them, methodically crippling the Thousand Sons or the Emperor's Children, or Huron's little empire or whatever other enemy has the audacity to form a semi-coherent organization capable of creating large-scale problems. Basically, most of the other loyalist primarchs are at least as interesting as Guilliman, and I'm more interested in watching them do their own things than listening to them argue with one of their least-interesting brothers.
That said, I'm not in a hurry to add more loyalist primarchs to the 41st millenium. Having one loyalist and two daemon primarchs back already gives the game an uncomfortably Heresy-scented smell. And I certainly wouldn't want Sanguinius or Ferrus to return; coming back would cheapen their chapters' thematics considerably.
I too believe that THE best choice for another Loyalist Primarch would be Lion'el Johnson. He's smart, and a great tactician, but he doesn't play the crowd like Roboute. He's more of a man of deeds than words. His men do love him, but I'm not sure if he'd ever 100% trust his own men again.
The one thing I could see as a bonus to having Russ is that he'd be A LOT different to Robby G on the tabletop. A Giant wolf-mutated Primarch would be the only really way to get a super-beatstick character for the Imperium. Robby G isn't too bad, but seriously, look at the rumored stats for Abadon and tell me that RG is better.
I think there is a good chance that we will get a second "returned" primarch and then have a second Horus Heresy style civil war.
Think about it: GW likes making money, HH has been rather successful, and right now we have a whole bunch of Imperial factions that are all mostly buddy-buddy.
You throw in a second "returned primarch" and you have a perfect excuse to split the Imperium, differentiating the factions more and adding a lot of the narrative hook that drove the HH.
Like Imperial Knights, that ship has sailed for good or ill. Whether we prefer it or not that is the reality now and it isn't changing.
I'm fine with Knights and Superheavies being in the game, tbh. (Loyalist) Primarchs running around is stupid.
In your opinion. Others are the reverse, feeling that Primarchs are OK but superheavies are not. Personally I would have liked if they all stayed out of 40k, but like I said before the ship has sailed. Wallowing in how stupid/wrong/bad one finds it to be doesn't do anyone any good, at this point we should just accept & move on. Use that energy on things that CAN change.
leerm02 wrote: I think there is a good chance that we will get a second "returned" primarch and then have a second Horus Heresy style civil war.
Think about it: GW likes making money, HH has been rather successful, and right now we have a whole bunch of Imperial factions that are all mostly buddy-buddy.
You throw in a second "returned primarch" and you have a perfect excuse to split the Imperium, differentiating the factions more and adding a lot of the narrative hook that drove the HH.
That's my prediction anyway!
Respectfully, I hope GW doesn't go that direction. They already have HH (a new edition even) for players that want to smash primarchs together. If 40k started focusing on a civil war where primarchs fight each other, that would be a bit too redundant for my taste.
Like Imperial Knights, that ship has sailed for good or ill. Whether we prefer it or not that is the reality now and it isn't changing.
I'm fine with Knights and Superheavies being in the game, tbh. (Loyalist) Primarchs running around is stupid.
In your opinion. Others are the reverse, feeling that Primarchs are OK but superheavies are not. Personally I would have liked if they all stayed out of 40k, but like I said before the ship has sailed. Wallowing in how stupid/wrong/bad one finds it to be doesn't do anyone any good, at this point we should just accept & move on. Use that energy on things that CAN change.
It can change, put Guilliman back into stasis . Or just retcon the whole thing.
Guilliman is fine… the only issue I would have with Primarchs is the inevitable hero hammer game… and so far the demon Primarchs, guiliman, even the silent king, or ghazskull haven’t lead to hero hammer.
Overread wrote: Personally I'd rather see him struggle on dealing with the growing political realities of the current era of the setting. Adding more Primarchs would likely increase the power base of the Imperium and part of what keeps the setting going is not letting one force get their head up.
Imperium starting to get united shuts down so many other elements because its a vast thing. United it would be near unstoppable.
It's like unleashing the entire might of the Tyranids; uniting the Necrons under 1 leader; placing all Orks under the biggest boss eva etc.... Most of those forces could decimate and wipe out most of the other races IF they were united under a single banner for long enough.
Constant political pressures and internal faction elements have constantly prevented that.
I think one Primarch carries the story well when he's got to match himself against many of the other powerful Imperial political and military forces. Just how long CAN he hold onto his power; how long will it be before other groups dislike what he does and work against him, even whilst working for the good of the Imperium.
Then again perhaps another brother returning could spark that off; the Imperium fragmenting down two extremes; one the pure belief in the Emperor as dictated by his direct Primarchs; the other by the various priest groups of the Imperium.
In theory, if the lion returned it would destabilize the IOM - Is he going to go along with whatever G man has been doing? Would G man trust him to begin with or would it just spark a new civil war? Something in between.
Something that could work is Lion returning, everyone is happy. Until he tells the ecclesiarch to F off and does his own thing without telling anyone anything. Th ecclesiarchy would then try to instigate a power coup and force g man to declare against the lion by bringing up the "fallen" as a reason why he cant be trusted.
I don't think in terms of the setting a primarch returning would automatically ruin it. It could make for some good story telling and fit in the traditional grim dark tragedy where even if someone wins, "Everyone looses"
Every primarch should return. We know that a lot of them will, with time. But I cannot figure out what the "just as planned" idea is GW is working with at the moment because it's two years past time for a second loyalist to return.
There is no 'just as planned.' The primarchs were mythical demigods lost in prehistory. The folktales had a Ragnarok edge to them, but the primarchs turning up isn't something that was ever in the cards, anymore than you expect Hercules to turn up at your house.
At this point, they could do something with another 1 or 2, but it doesn't really have an endgame. Its actually a more 'so what?' than a big moment, because the game (and therefor the setting) can't proceed to anything resembling resolution.
Like Imperial Knights, that ship has sailed for good or ill. Whether we prefer it or not that is the reality now and it isn't changing.
I'm fine with Knights and Superheavies being in the game, tbh. (Loyalist) Primarchs running around is stupid.
In your opinion. Others are the reverse, feeling that Primarchs are OK but superheavies are not. Personally I would have liked if they all stayed out of 40k, but like I said before the ship has sailed. Wallowing in how stupid/wrong/bad one finds it to be doesn't do anyone any good, at this point we should just accept & move on. Use that energy on things that CAN change.
It can change, put Guilliman back into stasis . Or just retcon the whole thing.
or maybe you could focus on what you like and stop pissing in other peoples corn flakes?
If they do introduce another Primarch, it should definitely be a foil to Guilliman - either a cynical Lion or maybe, just to troll, an Alpharius who claims he was loyal all along.
gungo wrote: Every primarch coming back will be heavily flawed.
The crazed Wulven Logan
The 1 handed dorn
The mentally broken Corvus
The deranged vulkan
The undead sanguinus
And the corrupted lion el Johnson
We have no idea what state Leman Russ would be in these days - I can't rule out a Wulfen form, but I wouldn't assume it, either.
As noted above, Dorn having lost a hand shouldn't be a major issue - at the very least, cybernetics are a thing.
I'd be less worried about Corax's mental state, and more his shadow form, really.
I don't think we have any idea what Vulkan's mental state is like following the War of the Beast, do we, even assuming he survived?
Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus shouldn't make a return at all.
What evidence do you that the Lion is corrupted?
And I find it interesting that you forgot about the Khan altogether, though he'd probably like it that way.
There is literally Almost nothing known about what happened to khan… he chased after some raiders and disappeared into webway or something.. no one knows…
Vulkan is a perpetual that was killed over and over until he went insane..
Corax went emo into the warp
Lion was reportedly taken by the watchers in the dark but he’s the least known about… it basically comes down to is Luther lying?
Sanguinius is reportedly in stasis too…
Ferrus should be dead.. he was decapitated.
We really don’t know how much of dorn is around as all that is left of him was a hand.
Guilliman was literally the least broken primarch.
If we don't know where the Khan ended up in the Webway, we can't definitively say what state he's in - he could be chilling in the Black Library, he could be stuck in the pits of Commoragh, he could be looking for somewhere to refuel whatever vehicle he was riding when he entered the place...
Vulkan was definitely messed up by the end of the Heresy - to those who read the material when he crops up in The War of the Beast, did he seem like he'd recovered at all by that point? If so, the extra 6-7k years since that war may have helped even more (again, assuming he survived that death).
Going by the last story we've seen him in, Corax seems to still be loyal, and has leaned into the shadow manipulation stuff he had to go hunting his Traitor brethren within the Eye.
We know as an out-of-universe party that the Lion was taken by the Watchers, and that he is stashed away in The Rock. He definitely appears to be the obvious choice to wake up if you need to bring a second Loyalist Primarch into the fold.
As noted by another poster, Sanguinius' corpse went into stasis, but Horus had definitely killed him before hand - though there is a chance that this may get tweaked when the Siege of Terra series reaches its climax. Assuming he stays dead, he and Ferrus should remain dead, IMO, though I do kinda like the idea of Legion of the Damned Ferrus as a legit option - just not flesh-and-blood Ferrus.
Aye, the current status of Dorn is an interesting one - and he's one I don't see voluntarily vanishing if he just lost a hand. There's a question mark hanging over him, for sure, but that's true of most of these thanks to the logic of fiction when it comes to deaths...
gungo wrote: your assuming Luther and cypher are bad… they haven’t been corrupted by chaos in all these years which lends me to beleive they aren’t exactly following chaos either.
I'll grant you that Cypher is, well, a cipher in that regard, and was at least non-Chaos enough to not get smited by Guilliman's crew during the events that lead to 8th - The Gathering Storm, wasn't it? - but Luther is definitely corrupted. After all, there's a reason a Daemon Prince broken him out of The Rock, and they're teaming up to unite an army of the corrupted Fallen. I'd also note that it isn't a given that any individual Fallen has been corrupted either, but from how things have been described, I'd image the majority are.
Argive wrote: Something that could work is Lion returning, everyone is happy. Until he tells the ecclesiarch to F off and does his own thing without telling anyone anything. Th ecclesiarchy would then try to instigate a power coup and force g man to declare against the lion by bringing up the "fallen" as a reason why he cant be trusted.
...that would imply the Church is aware of the Fallen, which is not a given.
Kind of a tangent, but Fabius has cloned primarchs, and the Black Rage seems to be passed on to those who share Sanguinius's genetic material. Would a hypothetical Sanguinius clone be afflicted with the Black Rage?
Dysartes wrote: As noted by another poster, Sanguinius' corpse went into stasis, but Horus had definitely killed him before hand - though there is a chance that this may get tweaked when the Siege of Terra series reaches its climax. Assuming he stays dead, he and Ferrus should remain dead, IMO, though I do kinda like the idea of Legion of the Damned Ferrus as a legit option - just not flesh-and-blood Ferrus.
Living Metal Ferrus! When his head got chopped off, the metal of his hands slooooowly started creeping through his corpse, cyborging him until it could start the process of growing a silver head for him. Turns out he has Alpharius style super blood that conducts his memories, and his soul is currently stuck in the RP buffer of some necron tombworld, stubbornly refusing to be purged by the tomb spirit. So now he's healed but only dimly connected to his own body. A silver brain piloted by a distant ghost and built with the patchwork memories of demigod blood.
The flesh is weak, his sons chant, but oh how that distant ghost longs to see, taste, and touch with present, living flesh instead of the hazy numbness of his silver form.
Still, being tied to poorly-guarded xenos supertech has its advantages. On occassion, he can wrangle the powers of the tomb spirit to do his bidding, possessing the machines of the foes near his body. He is at once both in perfect communion with the machine and yet the ultimate perversion of mechanicus faith.
The flesh is weak, yes, but the primarch is not. Now. Where is his brother? Where is Fulgrim?
Dysartes wrote: As noted by another poster, Sanguinius' corpse went into stasis, but Horus had definitely killed him before hand - though there is a chance that this may get tweaked when the Siege of Terra series reaches its climax. Assuming he stays dead, he and Ferrus should remain dead, IMO, though I do kinda like the idea of Legion of the Damned Ferrus as a legit option - just not flesh-and-blood Ferrus.
Dreadnought Ferrus?
Given the decapitation, I'd say it is unlikely - did the IH even manage to recover his body (and/or head) from Istvaan, or was it lost?
Argive wrote: Something that could work is Lion returning, everyone is happy. Until he tells the ecclesiarch to F off and does his own thing without telling anyone anything. Th ecclesiarchy would then try to instigate a power coup and force g man to declare against the lion by bringing up the "fallen" as a reason why he cant be trusted.
Dysartes wrote: ...that would imply the Church is aware of the Fallen, which is not a given.
I think that's a very small obstacle. If it specifically and categorically said somewhere they didn't.. then yeah that would be a ret con. But its not like GW has ever worried much about minor lack of information
Hecaton wrote: If they do introduce another Primarch, it should definitely be a foil to Guilliman - either a cynical Lion or maybe, just to troll, an Alpharius who claims he was loyal all along.
That’s would be a good twist, to have a traitor primarch come back as a loyalist. Maybe omegon comes back as a loyalist and alpharius as a renegade or CSM
The Lion makes the most narrative sense, as we the players know exactly where he is (The Rock) and that he’s in Stasis.
Being a Primarch, he’s likely healing from his wounds suffered during the destruction of Caliban. So all that really needs to happen is for the old Stasis Field to switched off, and Bob’s Your Aunty’s Live In Lover.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The Lion makes the most narrative sense, as we the players know exactly where he is (The Rock) and that he’s in Stasis.
Being a Primarch, he’s likely healing from his wounds suffered during the destruction of Caliban. So all that really needs to happen is for the old Stasis Field to switched off, and Bob’s Your Aunty’s Live In Lover.
I prefer no other loyalist Primarch at all. It adds to Guilliman's loneliness and isolation if he has no peers. He is the only one walking around in 40K with memories of the Great Crusade and 30K (not counting the daemon Primarchs or other immortal beings). Guilliman is thematically the one sane man fighting the insanity of the Imperium, and he has to act strong for all his followers and to avoid showing weakness to his enemies. He can never rest or let down his guard, or confide in anyone that actually understands him as a peer.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The Lion makes the most narrative sense, as we the players know exactly where he is (The Rock) and that he’s in Stasis.
Being a Primarch, he’s likely healing from his wounds suffered during the destruction of Caliban. So all that really needs to happen is for the old Stasis Field to switched off, and Bob’s Your Aunty’s Live In Lover.
I prefer no other loyalist Primarch at all. It adds to Guilliman's loneliness and isolation if he has no peers. He is the only one walking around in 40K with memories of the Great Crusade and 30K (not counting the daemon Primarchs or other immortal beings). Guilliman is thematically the one sane man fighting the insanity of the Imperium, and he has to act strong for all his followers and to avoid showing weakness to his enemies. He can never rest or let down his guard, or confide in anyone that actually understands him as a peer.
Iracundus, Bjorn the Fell-Handed would like a word...
I feel like Alpharius/Omegon would still be around, but just doing their thing in the background. Too bad any plan would be countered by immediate action from robottle o Guinness.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I feel like Alpharius/Omegon would still be around, but just doing their thing in the background. Too bad any plan would be countered by immediate action from robottle o Guinness.
I was under the impression that one of the twins was confirmed as dead, but I could be wrong there.
Alpharius got shanked by Dorn and Omegon took up the mantle.
As for whether the "Alpharius" on Eskrador got "killed" by Guilliman, it's anyone's bet as to if the remaining twin actually died. The Alpha Legion were noted to have become incredibly violent after the fact and even drove the Ultramarines off-world before scattering into the wider Galaxy.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I feel like Alpharius/Omegon would still be around, but just doing their thing in the background. Too bad any plan would be countered by immediate action from robottle o Guinness.
I was under the impression that one of the twins was confirmed as dead, but I could be wrong there.
One of them could be dead, it’s a massive argument but the “killed” twin could easily be alive due to all the abilities AL have.
Regardless, one is for sure alive and out there, hopefully making g man crazy by making small clerical errors appear on his paperwork.
Dysartes wrote: As noted by another poster, Sanguinius' corpse went into stasis, but Horus had definitely killed him before hand - though there is a chance that this may get tweaked when the Siege of Terra series reaches its climax. Assuming he stays dead, he and Ferrus should remain dead, IMO, though I do kinda like the idea of Legion of the Damned Ferrus as a legit option - just not flesh-and-blood Ferrus.
Dreadnought Ferrus?
Given the decapitation, I'd say it is unlikely - did the IH even manage to recover his body (and/or head) from Istvaan, or was it lost?
His skull ended up on horus' desk, where horus apparently talked to it.
It was clearly recovered as apparently returning ferrus skull was one thing RG offered the iron hands as a bribe to get them on side with the whole codex thing, though we don't know how HE got it.
Given 'Ghost Ferrus' appearing in the ranks of the first appearance of the Legion of the damned in master of mankind, its possible his skull is what ultimately becomes the Animus Malorem.
Given the decapitation, I'd say it is unlikely - did the IH even manage to recover his body (and/or head) from Istvaan, or was it lost?
I think Fulgrim's got it and does the "Alas, poor Yorick" routine with it. Would make a worthy quest to get it back.
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mrFickle wrote: That’s would be a good twist, to have a traitor primarch come back as a loyalist. Maybe omegon comes back as a loyalist and alpharius as a renegade or CSM
Have the Lion come back and be like "No, the Fallen were my team all along." The shitstorm among DA players would be amazing.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The Lion makes the most narrative sense, as we the players know exactly where he is (The Rock) and that he’s in Stasis.
Being a Primarch, he’s likely healing from his wounds suffered during the destruction of Caliban. So all that really needs to happen is for the old Stasis Field to switched off, and Bob’s Your Aunty’s Live In Lover.
It would also work well with someone else who could challenge Guilliman. They never got along very well and Rob was going on in the Imperium Secundus book how he'd take almost any other Primarch over the Lion when it came to "leading" Imperium Secundus.
With the way everything's been built up, it's very likely that the Lion will be next, probably fairly early in 10th, especially if we do get Angron with the World Eaters in 9th.
After that, I'm sure all the others will eventually come back in some way. Russ would be a good bet from a meta perspective to give another marine codex their Primarch. As well as one who could technically be on the Imperium side but be functionally uncontrollable and cause a lot of headaches.
Personally, if any where to come back I'd like to see either the Khan (my favorite Primarch) or Vulkan. Either of these could basically just be handwaved into showing up anyway.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The Lion makes the most narrative sense, as we the players know exactly where he is (The Rock) and that he’s in Stasis.
Being a Primarch, he’s likely healing from his wounds suffered during the destruction of Caliban. So all that really needs to happen is for the old Stasis Field to switched off, and Bob’s Your Aunty’s Live In Lover.
It would also work well with someone else who could challenge Guilliman. They never got along very well and Rob was going on in the Imperium Secundus book how he'd take almost any other Primarch over the Lion when it came to "leading" Imperium Secundus.
With the way everything's been built up, it's very likely that the Lion will be next, probably fairly early in 10th, especially if we do get Angron with the World Eaters in 9th.
After that, I'm sure all the others will eventually come back in some way. Russ would be a good bet from a meta perspective to give another marine codex their Primarch. As well as one who could technically be on the Imperium side but be functionally uncontrollable and cause a lot of headaches.
Personally, if any where to come back I'd like to see either the Khan (my favorite Primarch) or Vulkan. Either of these could basically just be handwaved into showing up anyway.
I’d be very interested to see the background explore The Lion and Guilliman’s relationship in the modern era.
It’s my (by no means correct) understanding that in terms of warfare, the Lion was second only to Horus. So as a War Leader, Guilliman could do a lot worse than having The Lion leading the overall war effort in a very literal, front line way, whilst Guilliman (a fantastic Statesman) rallied the wider Imperium and starting to make real progress in terms of currently hypothetical reforms.
I do accept the criticism of this post’s concept that the fact Guilliman is on his own creates further despair.
But, in my previous bit in this very post? Guilliman as Regent, directing things, The Lion as the Man of Action? You don’t need to be a particularly good write to create tensions between the brothers with shadowing of Horus’ own fall.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The Lion makes the most narrative sense, as we the players know exactly where he is (The Rock) and that he’s in Stasis.
Being a Primarch, he’s likely healing from his wounds suffered during the destruction of Caliban. So all that really needs to happen is for the old Stasis Field to switched off, and Bob’s Your Aunty’s Live In Lover.
It would also work well with someone else who could challenge Guilliman. They never got along very well and Rob was going on in the Imperium Secundus book how he'd take almost any other Primarch over the Lion when it came to "leading" Imperium Secundus.
With the way everything's been built up, it's very likely that the Lion will be next, probably fairly early in 10th, especially if we do get Angron with the World Eaters in 9th.
After that, I'm sure all the others will eventually come back in some way. Russ would be a good bet from a meta perspective to give another marine codex their Primarch. As well as one who could technically be on the Imperium side but be functionally uncontrollable and cause a lot of headaches.
Personally, if any where to come back I'd like to see either the Khan (my favorite Primarch) or Vulkan. Either of these could basically just be handwaved into showing up anyway.
I’d be very interested to see the background explore The Lion and Guilliman’s relationship in the modern era.
It’s my (by no means correct) understanding that in terms of warfare, the Lion was second only to Horus. So as a War Leader, Guilliman could do a lot worse than having The Lion leading the overall war effort in a very literal, front line way, whilst Guilliman (a fantastic Statesman) rallied the wider Imperium and starting to make real progress in terms of currently hypothetical reforms.
I do accept the criticism of this post’s concept that the fact Guilliman is on his own creates further despair.
But, in my previous bit in this very post? Guilliman as Regent, directing things, The Lion as the Man of Action? You don’t need to be a particularly good write to create tensions between the brothers with shadowing of Horus’ own fall.
The Lion is also super suspicious of basically everyone, one of the reasons he would have made a poor Warmaster despite potentially being a better general than Horus.
This was clear in the HH series where he was initially super unimpressed with Guilliman’s Imperium Secundus plan and it took a lot of diplomacy (and putting Sanguinius in charge) to pacify him.
If the Lion came back to Guilliman doing essentially the same thing again but writ large and with himself in charge this time he’s likely to be incandescent. And he’s certainly not likely to take any sort of orders from Guilliman so you’d get some pretty massive infighting.
The Lion is definitely the best choice if you brought another loyalist back. I think even Russ is likely to be much more diplomatic than he would be.
I like to think it’s more a certain level of Pragmatism.
Guilliman and The Lion are both ultimately Loyal.
And remember. Despite a lot of nefarious activity by his former legion? The Lion is not, and has never been, party to that cover up.
Indeed, he was there. Not just for the breaking of Caliban, but the entire Heresy. If anyone other than Guilliman, possibly more than Guilliman knows a Legion can have it’s, well let’s call them failures purely for arguments sake, it’s The Lion.
There’s a lot of a pure and rare narrativium to mined right there.
I think this tread is an excellent demonstration of why bringing back another Primarch is a terrible idea. It would just make the setting even more wrap around the tedious and inane demigod man-child soap opera. There is already an entire book series and a dedicated separate game for that, how on Earth is that not enough?
gungo wrote: Every primarch coming back will be heavily flawed.
The crazed Wulven Logan
The 1 handed dorn
The mentally broken Corvus
The deranged vulkan
The undead sanguinus
And the corrupted lion el Johnson
We have no idea what state Leman Russ would be in these days - I can't rule out a Wulfen form, but I wouldn't assume it, either.
As noted above, Dorn having lost a hand shouldn't be a major issue - at the very least, cybernetics are a thing.
I'd be less worried about Corax's mental state, and more his shadow form, really.
I don't think we have any idea what Vulkan's mental state is like following the War of the Beast, do we, even assuming he survived?
Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus shouldn't make a return at all.
What evidence do you that the Lion is corrupted?
And I find it interesting that you forgot about the Khan altogether, though he'd probably like it that way.
There is literally Almost nothing known about what happened to khan… he chased after some raiders and disappeared into webway or something.. no one knows…
Vulkan is a perpetual that was killed over and over until he went insane..
Corax went emo into the warp
Lion was reportedly taken by the watchers in the dark but he’s the least known about… it basically comes down to is Luther lying?
Sanguinius is reportedly in stasis too…
Ferrus should be dead.. he was decapitated.
We really don’t know how much of dorn is around as all that is left of him was a hand.
Guilliman was literally the least broken primarch.
If we don't know where the Khan ended up in the Webway, we can't definitively say what state he's in - he could be chilling in the Black Library, he could be stuck in the pits of Commoragh, he could be looking for somewhere to refuel whatever vehicle he was riding when he entered the place...
Vulkan was definitely messed up by the end of the Heresy - to those who read the material when he crops up in The War of the Beast, did he seem like he'd recovered at all by that point? If so, the extra 6-7k years since that war may have helped even more (again, assuming he survived that death).
Going by the last story we've seen him in, Corax seems to still be loyal, and has leaned into the shadow manipulation stuff he had to go hunting his Traitor brethren within the Eye.
We know as an out-of-universe party that the Lion was taken by the Watchers, and that he is stashed away in The Rock. He definitely appears to be the obvious choice to wake up if you need to bring a second Loyalist Primarch into the fold.
As noted by another poster, Sanguinius' corpse went into stasis, but Horus had definitely killed him before hand - though there is a chance that this may get tweaked when the Siege of Terra series reaches its climax. Assuming he stays dead, he and Ferrus should remain dead, IMO, though I do kinda like the idea of Legion of the Damned Ferrus as a legit option - just not flesh-and-blood Ferrus.
Aye, the current status of Dorn is an interesting one - and he's one I don't see voluntarily vanishing if he just lost a hand. There's a question mark hanging over him, for sure, but that's true of most of these thanks to the logic of fiction when it comes to deaths...
gungo wrote: your assuming Luther and cypher are bad… they haven’t been corrupted by chaos in all these years which lends me to beleive they aren’t exactly following chaos either.
I'll grant you that Cypher is, well, a cipher in that regard, and was at least non-Chaos enough to not get smited by Guilliman's crew during the events that lead to 8th - The Gathering Storm, wasn't it? - but Luther is definitely corrupted. After all, there's a reason a Daemon Prince broken him out of The Rock, and they're teaming up to unite an army of the corrupted Fallen. I'd also note that it isn't a given that any individual Fallen has been corrupted either, but from how things have been described, I'd image the majority are.
Argive wrote: Something that could work is Lion returning, everyone is happy. Until he tells the ecclesiarch to F off and does his own thing without telling anyone anything. Th ecclesiarchy would then try to instigate a power coup and force g man to declare against the lion by bringing up the "fallen" as a reason why he cant be trusted.
...that would imply the Church is aware of the Fallen, which is not a given.
Tryzan heavily implies he has at least one of the primarchs on ice somewhere….. at least one of those lost boys is a statue in his museum is my guess.
Regarding sanguinus I Wouldn’t be surprised if they retcon it to being mostly dead
Ferrus is dead… I don’t even think they got his head back… i mean they can claim they made him into a dreadnaught but that would be stupid. When all that was left was a skull…
And remember. Despite a lot of nefarious activity by his former legion? The Lion is not, and has never been, party to that cover up.
Indeed, he was there. Not just for the breaking of Caliban, but the entire Heresy. If anyone other than Guilliman, possibly more than Guilliman knows a Legion can have it’s, well let’s call them failures purely for arguments sake, it’s The Lion.
There’s a lot of a pure and rare narrativium to mined right there.
Zarkov said most of what I was going to in my reply, but I did want to add this.
That is part of why the tension would work well, even though they are both totally loyal, Lion suspects everyone. IMHO there is nothing Rob could ever do to earn his trust, nothing I think anyone could ever do. I would really like to see their dynamic, Lion having to come to terms with his distrust, knowing that if he moved against Rob in any way, it would mean the end for what's left of the Imperium, yet still not being comfortable with all the power he'd amassed.
The Lion is definitely the best choice if you brought another loyalist back. I think even Russ is likely to be much more diplomatic than he would be.
Yeah, I think between those three it would be Russ who was the peacemaker, ironically, considering his personality and relationships with both of them.
leerm02 wrote: I think there is a good chance that we will get a second "returned" primarch and then have a second Horus Heresy style civil war.
Think about it: GW likes making money, HH has been rather successful, and right now we have a whole bunch of Imperial factions that are all mostly buddy-buddy.
You throw in a second "returned primarch" and you have a perfect excuse to split the Imperium, differentiating the factions more and adding a lot of the narrative hook that drove the HH.
That's my prediction anyway!
Respectfully, I hope GW doesn't go that direction. They already have HH (a new edition even) for players that want to smash primarchs together. If 40k started focusing on a civil war where primarchs fight each other, that would be a bit too redundant for my taste.
And it wouldn’t add much monetary wise for them.
“A primarch model coming back and a few campaign books” well that fits whether he’s loyal or not.
So is what it is.
And remember. Despite a lot of nefarious activity by his former legion? The Lion is not, and has never been, party to that cover up.
Indeed, he was there. Not just for the breaking of Caliban, but the entire Heresy. If anyone other than Guilliman, possibly more than Guilliman knows a Legion can have it’s, well let’s call them failures purely for arguments sake, it’s The Lion.
There’s a lot of a pure and rare narrativium to mined right there.
But surely the Lion would listen to his father?
Zarkov said most of what I was going to in my reply, but I did want to add this.
That is part of why the tension would work well, even though they are both totally loyal, Lion suspects everyone. IMHO there is nothing Rob could ever do to earn his trust, nothing I think anyone could ever do. I would really like to see their dynamic, Lion having to come to terms with his distrust, knowing that if he moved against Rob in any way, it would mean the end for what's left of the Imperium, yet still not being comfortable with all the power he'd amassed.
gungo wrote: Every primarch coming back will be heavily flawed.
The crazed Wulven Logan
The 1 handed dorn
The mentally broken Corvus
The deranged vulkan
The undead sanguinus
And the corrupted lion el Johnson
We have no idea what state Leman Russ would be in these days - I can't rule out a Wulfen form, but I wouldn't assume it, either.
As noted above, Dorn having lost a hand shouldn't be a major issue - at the very least, cybernetics are a thing.
I'd be less worried about Corax's mental state, and more his shadow form, really.
I don't think we have any idea what Vulkan's mental state is like following the War of the Beast, do we, even assuming he survived?
Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus shouldn't make a return at all.
What evidence do you that the Lion is corrupted?
And I find it interesting that you forgot about the Khan altogether, though he'd probably like it that way.
There is literally Almost nothing known about what happened to khan… he chased after some raiders and disappeared into webway or something.. no one knows…
Vulkan is a perpetual that was killed over and over until he went insane..
Corax went emo into the warp
Lion was reportedly taken by the watchers in the dark but he’s the least known about… it basically comes down to is Luther lying?
Sanguinius is reportedly in stasis too…
Ferrus should be dead.. he was decapitated.
We really don’t know how much of dorn is around as all that is left of him was a hand.
Guilliman was literally the least broken primarch.
If we don't know where the Khan ended up in the Webway, we can't definitively say what state he's in - he could be chilling in the Black Library, he could be stuck in the pits of Commoragh, he could be looking for somewhere to refuel whatever vehicle he was riding when he entered the place...
Vulkan was definitely messed up by the end of the Heresy - to those who read the material when he crops up in The War of the Beast, did he seem like he'd recovered at all by that point? If so, the extra 6-7k years since that war may have helped even more (again, assuming he survived that death).
Going by the last story we've seen him in, Corax seems to still be loyal, and has leaned into the shadow manipulation stuff he had to go hunting his Traitor brethren within the Eye.
We know as an out-of-universe party that the Lion was taken by the Watchers, and that he is stashed away in The Rock. He definitely appears to be the obvious choice to wake up if you need to bring a second Loyalist Primarch into the fold.
As noted by another poster, Sanguinius' corpse went into stasis, but Horus had definitely killed him before hand - though there is a chance that this may get tweaked when the Siege of Terra series reaches its climax. Assuming he stays dead, he and Ferrus should remain dead, IMO, though I do kinda like the idea of Legion of the Damned Ferrus as a legit option - just not flesh-and-blood Ferrus.
Aye, the current status of Dorn is an interesting one - and he's one I don't see voluntarily vanishing if he just lost a hand. There's a question mark hanging over him, for sure, but that's true of most of these thanks to the logic of fiction when it comes to deaths...
gungo wrote: your assuming Luther and cypher are bad… they haven’t been corrupted by chaos in all these years which lends me to beleive they aren’t exactly following chaos either.
I'll grant you that Cypher is, well, a cipher in that regard, and was at least non-Chaos enough to not get smited by Guilliman's crew during the events that lead to 8th - The Gathering Storm, wasn't it? - but Luther is definitely corrupted. After all, there's a reason a Daemon Prince broken him out of The Rock, and they're teaming up to unite an army of the corrupted Fallen. I'd also note that it isn't a given that any individual Fallen has been corrupted either, but from how things have been described, I'd image the majority are.
Argive wrote: Something that could work is Lion returning, everyone is happy. Until he tells the ecclesiarch to F off and does his own thing without telling anyone anything. Th ecclesiarchy would then try to instigate a power coup and force g man to declare against the lion by bringing up the "fallen" as a reason why he cant be trusted.
...that would imply the Church is aware of the Fallen, which is not a given.
Tryzan heavily implies he has at least one of the primarchs on ice somewhere….. at least one of those lost boys is a statue in his museum is my guess.
Regarding sanguinus I Wouldn’t be surprised if they retcon it to being mostly dead
Ferrus is dead… I don’t even think they got his head back… i mean they can claim they made him into a dreadnaught but that would be stupid. When all that was left was a skull…
Trazyn has a clone of fulgrim in his museum, is that what you are thinking?
NinthMusketeer wrote: Like Imperial Knights, that ship has sailed for good or ill. Whether we prefer it or not that is the reality now and it isn't changing.
I'm fine with Knights and Superheavies being in the game, tbh. (Loyalist) Primarchs running around is stupid.
In your opinion. Others are the reverse, feeling that Primarchs are OK but superheavies are not. Personally I would have liked if they all stayed out of 40k, but like I said before the ship has sailed. Wallowing in how stupid/wrong/bad one finds it to be doesn't do anyone any good, at this point we should just accept & move on. Use that energy on things that CAN change.
For me, I'm fine with super-heavies thematically. They fit the setting. The issue with those is gameplay balance.
The problem with primarchs, at least loyalist ones, is that it waters down the setting. It makes it too character focused, rather than a setting that the 40k should be. 40k should be a setting where you can play anytime and any place within the setting.
ATM all of the lore, outside of BL, reads like a Saturday morning cartoon. Everything is now "this named character fights this other named character" and because they're named characters they can almost never die.
The only one I see returning next is the Lion followed by Dorn. This has been discussed and speculated for a few years now.
Gman himself stated that he longs for a brother when he confronted Mortarion.
I don't have anything against Primarchs returning it would make the setting even more interesting but I would also like traitor Primarchs to return such as Perturabo and Lorgar.
There's a high chance for Trazyn to throw loyalist Fulgrim unto the battlefield. That would make an interesting read.
F.E.A.R. wrote: The only one I see returning next is the Lion followed by Dorn. This has been discussed and speculated for a few years now.
Gman himself stated that he longs for a brother when he confronted Mortarion.
I don't have anything against Primarchs returning it would make the setting even more interesting but I would also like traitor Primarchs to return such as Perturabo and Lorgar.
There's a high chance for Trazyn to throw loyalist Fulgrim unto the battlefield. That would make an interesting read.
I haven’t read the stories but it believe that fulgrim was cloned repeatedly and repeatedly went down the same path to corruption. Possibly because primarch clones carry their memories in their DNA (citation needed)
I haven’t read the stories but it believe that fulgrim was cloned repeatedly and repeatedly went down the same path to corruption. Possibly because primarch clones carry their memories in their DNA (citation needed)
The latest clone showed no signs of Chaos taint. It's only believed he might repeat his past mistakes. Some people speculate the latest clone finally captured his pure soul.
The Fulgrim clone seen in the Fabius Bile trilogy was given to Trazyn because Bile realised that the Primarchs were always going to be mistakes and problems.
Bile taught the clone from its youngest days and still, the clone turned out exactly the same way as regular Fulgrim before his possession, arrogant, quick to anger, preening, and worst of all extremely charismatic. The clone led the mutants, dregs, and New Men on Bile's ship in a revolt against the Emperor's Children who had "secured" it and then decided it would lead those Emperor's Children in an effort to return them to their previous "glory". It had the same memories as regular Fulgrim and Bile knew it would follow the exact same path as the original. In fact he fully believed the original Fulgrim would corrupt the clone and then there would be two Chaos Fulgrims running around.
That clone wasn't a Loyalist either, it was loyal to its sons and the other creatures Bile made, it would still have fought against the Imperium.
I'm curious as to how there is a "high chance" the clone will show up in 40k considering the novel series is over and the author doesn't work with BL and left on very bad terms.
mrFickle wrote: I haven’t read the stories but it believe that fulgrim was cloned repeatedly and repeatedly went down the same path to corruption. Possibly because primarch clones carry their memories in their DNA (citation needed)
The other clones were a failure but this one came out perfect and no it did not went the same path to corruption. Primarchs souls do in a way carry DNA memories however the key element is the soul (the warp god) that has (carries) the consciousness and memories.
Fulgrims soul left his body upon ascension, his soul was never shattered into shards like Ferrus, Sanguinius and Magnus. Slaanesh did not take possession of his soul, the soul found its way to the newly perfectly cloned body of his obviously retaining its memories. Fabius Bile cried and even the EC corrupted warband knelt before Fulgrim and every warrior that was around Fulgrim while he was raised by Fabius turned on his side (it's a Primarchs power to turn those around them on their side). Fulgrim deeply regret what he had done however Fabius saw at a moment the arrogance of Fulgrim that lead to their downfall (I don't trust Fabius when it comes to judging a character) and told Trazyn to take the him into his collection.
People don't seem to understand that Fulgrim and the EC (had Fulgrim not made a bad decision) would've never fallen from grace, they would've remained one of the most loyalist and noblest legions during the Heresy.
Here's an example, even if Horus was not chosen as Warmaster but instead was Sanguinius or Gman, they still would've fallen to Chaos, not the same way Horus fell, but the Gods would've found a way to corrupt them.
Same thing with Fulgrim. If any other Primarch picked up the Laer (with the exception of Logan Grimmnar and Kaldor Draigo), him and his legion would've fallen from grace just like Fulgrim did and the EC.
Jarms48 wrote: The latest clone showed no signs of Chaos taint. It's only believed he might repeat his past mistakes. Some people speculate the latest clone finally captured his pure soul.
It was Fabius who believed that he would make the same mistake and gave him away to Trazyn. Fulgrim wouldn't make the same mistake, let's also not forget that Emperor did not tell the Primarchs of the existence of Chaos. People seem to forget that Chaos cannot corrupt many of the Primarchs from the outside, so the key is to plant the seeds in their souls from the inside like the Laer and the wound Horus was given. The only Primarch that has 100% chance to fall to Chaos without corrupting him from the inside is non other than Lorgar.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I fear GW couldn't resist bringing back Sanguinius.
And I don't think they care enough about Imperial Fists/Raven Guard/Salamanders to bring back Dorn/Corax/Vulkan.
I would hope for the Lion, but then everyone would want Russ as well.
I see Sanguinius to be brought back only in the end of times. The reason why it's "hard" to bring back the angel is because his soul consists of two warp gods, the Sanguinor and Mepihston. If you'd stuff them together like the Emperor did into one body, then you will have the angel back.
It's not just the loyalist that they don't care about, I for an example would like to see more focus on the Salamanders (also because Chaos has a hard time dealing with them because they only use fire) because they're the most humane next to pre-heresy EC. Legion of the Damned with Ferrus as a leader, that would epic.
Gert wrote: F.E.A.R have you got a source for Fulgrims soul being uncorrupted?
No source except the Bile books but anyone can guess what happened. We know that when someone becomes a Daemon Prince the Chaos Gods they choose to pledge service to take their soul and stuffs them with warp junk. This binds them to their will and makes them a daemon and this is what almost happened with the real Fulgrim. When Fabius made the clone there was suddenly a body out there that had a greater claim to Fulgrim's soul than Slaanesh did, hence the soul left Slaanesh and entered into the new Clonegrims body. His soul was never shattered like I mentioned in my comment above nor erased from existence by some kame hame haaa finisher move like Horus was, it was intact. This is my head canon, Fabius isn't a reliable narrator. Fabius just spat bs (that he would do the same mistake again and that he had to stop it) and he was well aware that he was doing wrong when giving Fulgrim to Trazyn. Clonegrim said that he will set everything right that Fulgrim messed up. He had all the memories from the previous Fulgrim and was disgusted by them, there's no such thing as a Laer blade in possession so he would remain loyalist.
Fulgrim's fall was the most unfortunate and most forced. The Laer blade infected his body, mind and spirit making him a Chaos worshiping psycho, and it made him the dick he was.
F.E.A.R. wrote: No source except the Bile books but anyone can guess what happened.
I will get to the rest but this is the important part. You don't have a source and are making guesses as to what you think has happened, passing it off as fact. Please stop that.
Now to address your headcanon.
We know that when someone becomes a Daemon Prince the Chaos Gods they choose to pledge service to take their soul and stuffs them with warp junk. This binds them to their will and makes them a daemon and this is what almost happened with the real Fulgrim. When Fabius made the clone there was suddenly a body out there that had a greater claim to Fulgrim's soul than Slaanesh did, hence the soul left Slaanesh and entered into the new Clonegrims body.
How would a physical form have more control over a supernatural aspect than a supernatural entity? The only time "claims" come into play is between the various Gods themselves and Fulgrim's clone body is not a God. When a mortal ascends to Daemonhood their soul becomes one with the Warp and by extension their Patron God. Fulgrim's soul belongs to Slaanesh and is tied to his Daemonic form. If his soul somehow left his Daemonic form he would cease to exist.
His soul was never shattered like I mentioned in my comment above nor erased from existence by some kame hame haaa finisher move like Horus was, it was intact. This is my head canon, Fabius isn't a reliable narrator. Fabius just spat bullgak (that he would do the same mistake again and that he had to stop it) and he was well aware that he was doing wrong when giving Fulgrim to Trazyn. Clonegrim said that he will set everything right that Fulgrim messed up. He had all the memories from the previous Fulgrim and was disgusted by them, there's no such thing as a Laer blade in possession so he would remain loyalist.
Fulgrim's fall was the most unfortunate and most forced. The Laer blade infected his body, mind and spirit making him a Chaos worshiping psycho, and he made him the dick he was.
Fabius was also rightly afraid that Daemon Fulgrim would find the clone and then abduct and pervert it just as he did to one of Bile's other creations, Melusine.
And I hate to break it to you chief, but Fulgrim was a prat before he went to Laer. He was an arrogant preening individual who was also deeply paranoid that he was a failure and that nobody liked or respected him. He fell because the Daemon bound in the Laer Blade was able to feed his ego while also stoking the fires of his doubts and fears about his place in the Imperium. His warriors were equally polarised with some embodying the legacy of their proud history and others emulating their Primarch in his never-ending search for perfection.
You also think that because the clone wasn't corrupted by Slaanesh, it would suddenly join the Imperium and not be immediately destroyed for being a Traitor for some reason. The clone only said it would return the Emperor's Children to perfection, not the Imperium. Fabius may be an unreliable narrator with an axe to grind against the Primarchs but with the clone he was right. It would have trod the same path as the original, becoming more and more obssessed with perfection over everything else until one moment of weakness would lead it into the embrace of the Dark Prince once again.
I Agee with Gert. Fabius was offered the opportunity to lead the resurected emperors children and he thought it was a bad idea and he knew that bad idea was exactly what the fulcrum clone would have done, he wouldn't have been able to help it.
they wouldn't have sided with anyone but themselves and I guess that the clone fulgrim could probably have recruited a large amount of loyalists and renegade marines and all oil a sudden you have this massive army led by fulgrim with all the flaws that Bile thinks he has.
Bile still believes that he is trying to save humanity and that his design will be better than the emperors designs for thew primarchs and Astartes. Homo Novus is the the evolution of humanity that can look after itself without the need for primarchs and space marines.
but Bile's worst fear would be that fulgrim would take command of his New Men. addled them down the same path as he did the Emperors Children.
Not that it helps the discussion particularly, but I feel one is enough. Two I think would represent stability which isn't really what we want to see in the Imperium.
You know what would be interesting would be one of the undivided Chaos primarchs being found by Malal/Malice and brought under their fold. That would perhaps create an interesting dynamic where certain renegades would take the fight to Chaos. Perhaps they could occupy some place in the Dark Imperium.
What would be truly interesting is the return of one of the 2 unnamed missing primarchs and legions.
They would be blank slates niether chaos or imperium alligned as there has never been any stories written about how or why they disappeared. I mean it heavily implies they are fallen chapters but not necessarily chaos related. Also there were some implications the XI legion and ultramarines had some overlap in recruitment areas.
I’m sure at some point after the Horus heresy books are done. Gw writers will go back to the time when those legions were lost.
gungo wrote: What would be truly interesting is the return of one of the 2 unnamed missing primarchs and legions.
They would be blank slates niether chaos or imperium alligned as there has never been any stories written about how or why they disappeared. I mean it heavily implies they are fallen chapters but not necessarily chaos related. Also there were some implications the XI legion and ultramarines had some overlap in recruitment areas.
I’m sure at some point after the Horus heresy books are done. Gw writers will go back to the time when those legions were lost.
gungo wrote: What would be truly interesting is the return of one of the 2 unnamed missing primarchs and legions.
They would be blank slates niether chaos or imperium alligned as there has never been any stories written about how or why they disappeared. I mean it heavily implies they are fallen chapters but not necessarily chaos related. Also there were some implications the XI legion and ultramarines had some overlap in recruitment areas.
I’m sure at some point after the Horus heresy books are done. Gw writers will go back to the time when those legions were lost.
Yes that would be sick. It's theorized that the two Primarchs are held prisoners under the Imperial Palace in the Dark Cells by the Shadow Keepers Custodes because they guard dangerous technology (too valuable to be destroyed or lost, but too dangerous to be used) and hectic monsters. It doesn't make sense for the two lost Primarchs to do something more horrible than Horus and the other traitors did during the Heresy that the Emperor erase them from Imperial Records, it just doesn't make sense. I can't think of anything what they could've done that was more evil than Horus. Either they did something bad and are held in the Dark Cells under the Imperial Palace or they are somewhere far away in the galaxy (maybe like the Ghoul Stars) in hiding thanks to some Dark Age Tech the Emps gave them to not age. If the Big E said he will forgive Mortarion, than I don't see why he shouldn't forgive the Two Primarchs. In the end I would say that it's old lore that doesn't make sense anymore and it just needs to be retconned.
gungo wrote: What would be truly interesting is the return of one of the 2 unnamed missing primarchs and legions.
They would be blank slates niether chaos or imperium alligned as there has never been any stories written about how or why they disappeared. I mean it heavily implies they are fallen chapters but not necessarily chaos related. Also there were some implications the XI legion and ultramarines had some overlap in recruitment areas.
I’m sure at some point after the Horus heresy books are done. Gw writers will go back to the time when those legions were lost.
I'm reasonably sure that material from the HH novels confirms that they're both dead, but I could be wrong there.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And I don't think they care enough about Imperial Fists
Count the number of special characters they have in HH. It's, like, more than six really 'not cared enough' legions combined. They also have two command squads, multiple upgrade packs, and tons of other gak. Then there is IF [Captain America shield sound] in Solar War series with not just Dorn beating up one traitor primarch after another, but individual IF captains doing so too
If there are 10-15 legions GW don't care about, IF are not among them.
mrFickle wrote: I Agee with Gert. Fabius was offered the opportunity to lead the resurected emperors children and he thought it was a bad idea and he knew that bad idea was exactly what the fulcrum clone would have done, he wouldn't have been able to help it.
they wouldn't have sided with anyone but themselves and I guess that the clone fulgrim could probably have recruited a large amount of loyalists and renegade marines and all oil a sudden you have this massive army led by fulgrim with all the flaws that Bile thinks he has.
Bile still believes that he is trying to save humanity and that his design will be better than the emperors designs for thew primarchs and Astartes. Homo Novus is the the evolution of humanity that can look after itself without the need for primarchs and space marines.
but Bile's worst fear would be that fulgrim would take command of his New Men. addled them down the same path as he did the Emperors Children.
That... er. Spoilers, I guess.
Its important to realize that most of the Fulgrim trilogy (except the epilogue of the third book, when Black Legion guy shows up to whine about how much better primaris are) happened some time in the past. Centuries at least
Spoiler:
And that was exactly what happened. Clone Fulgrim DID take command of his new men, and Fulgrim realized that his 'new men' couldn't look after itself and had the same flaws as normal humans and marines.
It's why Fabius chucked Clone Fulgrim at Trazyn. He ruined everything Bile had tried to build and create since the heresy, and Fabius... gave up, accepted his role as ascribed by the chaos gods, and became the mercenary alchemist for the traitor legions
Given the promise of a Gman rebuild in the codex 2.0 that Astartes hope to be getting, I'm guessing they will make him more inline with the chaotic stupidity that is the current balance.
gungo wrote: What would be truly interesting is the return of one of the 2 unnamed missing primarchs and legions.
They would be blank slates niether chaos or imperium alligned as there has never been any stories written about how or why they disappeared. I mean it heavily implies they are fallen chapters but not necessarily chaos related. Also there were some implications the XI legion and ultramarines had some overlap in recruitment areas.
I’m sure at some point after the Horus heresy books are done. Gw writers will go back to the time when those legions were lost.
I'm reasonably sure that material from the HH novels confirms that they're both dead, but I could be wrong there.
From a personal perspective if GW ever did bring back more loyalist Primarchs my money would be on The Lion and Russ. Both would be good counters to Guilliman and to each other. I'd rather in general that we see the other Daemon Primarchs make appearances as they are more fitting to the current timeline.
On a separate note I have often thought that a new version of the Sanquinor where he is the spiritual manifestation of Sanguinious, on par in power with the other Primarchs in the game, would be a nice addition in place of trying to bring him back in some fashion.
BlackLobster wrote: From a personal perspective if GW ever did bring back more loyalist Primarchs my money would be on The Lion and Russ. Both would be good counters to Guilliman and to each other. I'd rather in general that we see the other Daemon Primarchs make appearances as they are more fitting to the current timeline.
Lion and Russ are close, they wouldn't "counter" or foil each other - quite the opposite.
Frankly, I'm of the opinion that Corax would be one of the better choices to add a foil to Guilliman.
His history on Deliverance would likely lead to some pretty hefty words for the way some Imperium planets treat their populaces, and that's not even getting into anything relating to the Chapter recruiting worlds that are kept purposely at a state of barbarism because reasons.
The Imperium did slavery when Corax was kicking about during the Crusade. For all his talk of being a liberator and preserve of life, he still served an empire that openly endorsed slavery.
Like it's definitely worse but not to the point where Corax's reaction would be any different to Guilliman's.
I wonder if Dorn will be the next loyal primarch to return, based on nothing but speculation. Purely saying it cause the next Guard tank is going to be called the Dorn.
BlackLobster wrote: From a personal perspective if GW ever did bring back more loyalist Primarchs my money would be on The Lion and Russ. Both would be good counters to Guilliman and to each other. I'd rather in general that we see the other Daemon Primarchs make appearances as they are more fitting to the current timeline.
Lion and Russ are close, they wouldn't "counter" or foil each other - quite the opposite.
Agreed... once upon a time but would they still be so after ten thousand years. The Lion has been asleep but we don't know about Russ, and if they brought him back, he'd have to fit in with how the chapter is presented now. I think things would be different.
The best Primarch to return to aid and help Gman is non other than Vulkan. Honestly the Salamanders and Vulkan get very little attention and Vulkan will help Gman with anything instead of opposing him. Just watched Valraks video on Vulkan returning and it does make sense for him to return on Armageddon where he "died" also where Angron was banished. And we have Salamanders trying to stop the summoning of Angron.
Vulkan and Angron returning on Armageddon will be epic. You'd have the Salamanders, WE and Orks clashing (the Orks keep returning to Ulanor because it's their homeland some sort). Honestly Vulkan is the one I'm excited about, even if Angron returns, he'll just get banished back to Hell just like the walking abortion he is.
Pray that Nick Kyme doesn't write Vulkan otherwise he ain't returning.
Primarchs like Vulkan, Corax, Khan would better help out Gman instead of the Lion, Russ and Dorn (not 100% sure about Dorn though).
The Lion would appear and just be like "Why is Gman in charge and not me, and why is he wielding the Emperor's sword and not me?" it would just worsen the situation. As for Russ I don't think he'd like to get bossed around by one of his brothers.
If Angron were cloned from original DNA then he would be remade without the butchers nails and therefore we would see the original, supposed compassionate, Angron… wouldn’t we?
That would be an interesting opposite to the demon Angron that will be on its way with the WE codex
. Or just retcon the whole thing.
