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How do!

Spinning off from another thread, because I think this is a concept which is too interesting not to put to its own discussion.

So not long ago, Guilliman returned to the fold. Whilst the circumstances of his return are…well a bit dodgy…his return has been broadly welcomed by an Imperium in dire need of him. And whilst he’s not exactly In Charge, he’s still a political force to be reckoned with.

But…for those who may be opposed to him, for whatever reason? He could easily be painted as a hypocrite. By his authority were Chapters limited in size. By his authority were Primaris secretly created by someone who is borderline Heretek. He very much risks becoming The New Horus. By no means Chaos Corrupted, but wielding far more power than a single being The Isn’t The Emperor should.

He’s also literally without Peer. And that I think is going to be part of his problem. Yes, he is absolutely competent, more so than anyone else the Imperium has. But…if no-one would dare naysay you? That can be dangerous. Not just from an operational point of view, but an ongoing authority. Whilst it seems an unlikely occurrence, if he suffers a significant military failure? His reputation may become undermined.

A brother Primarch returning to the fold strikes me as being far less likely to hold Guilliman in awe. More willing, able and better placed to challenge decisions being made. Not necessarily in a confrontational manner, but a “if I try to poke holes in it, we’re more likely to end up with a solid plan, with as little overlooked as possible”.

Consider even Horus had his Mournival, four Captains chosen to challenge Horus. To be his naysmiths. To test his plans by subjecting them to free and open criticism without fear of disfavour nor punishment.

Sure, a single brother does not a Mournival make. But, I would argue it would give others the chance to see Guilliman can be challenged, and can change his mind. A little encouragement going a long way and that.

Certainly should I end up in a position of authority (it’s still possible career wise!), I’d prefer those in the team i lead to be confident in challenging me. It keeps you honest, keeps you grounded.

Right now, I’m not at all sure there’s anyone in The Imperium who would feel comfortable doing that. Even Calgar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’d also argue a retuned brother would be someone of equal experience, potentially in a different specialism.

The Khan, for instance. His expertise in speed combat might offer a perspective Guilliman lacks, or doesn’t think would work.

To me another Primarch would un-balance the things GW tries to keep balanced.

Sure, they have Abbadon and Traitor Primarchs, but we already have Guilliman WITH powerful people like Celestine, Belisarius, etceteras.

Following your idea, these guys, for sure minor than a Primarch, are still those who 'question' Guilliman's absolute authority with their power, or at least advice him. Another Primarch would overshadow Guilliman storywise right now imho, we must wait hundreds of years pass before seeing another great catastrophe / big events like Guilliman, Cadia, Cicatrix Maledictum etcetera.

I don't think GW will reintroduce another Primarch until their sales numbers really start tanking again. Part of the whole schtick for Guilliman right now is how alone he feels, not only because he's a Primarch but because he's effectively a man out of time like Captain America, where he sees all the ideals and things he's fought for ground into a grotesque parody of what he once knew. Adding a primarch would change that dynamic and I'm not sure in a good way and personally it would feel like it's just becoming 30K lite, since Primarchs inevitably dominate the spotlight when they get involved. It's bad enough that many SM named characters have plot armour, throwing further Primarchs in the mix would remove what little narrative tension there is already.

It's a big narrative shake up that they'll likely use to generate buzz and depending on who is brought back, can generate a potential schism or semi-Cold war in the Imperium between a Pro-Guilly and Pro (other Primarch camp). I can't see the Lion being enthused with how Guilliman has become the Regent of the Imperium after what he saw with Imperium Secundus.

Alternatively, they could kill Guilliman in a tragic "last stand", close the rift, and leave 40K as a sandbox setting for people to tell their own stories, instead of a narrative one subject to good or ill choices that effect everyone.

I think they are very hesitant to do so, Primarchs screwed up the game when they dropped and were very hard for them to balance around. So i dont think we will be seeing another loyalist any time soon, traitor maybe because they just make them beat stick units.

Personally I'd rather see him struggle on dealing with the growing political realities of the current era of the setting. Adding more Primarchs would likely increase the power base of the Imperium and part of what keeps the setting going is not letting one force get their head up.

Imperium starting to get united shuts down so many other elements because its a vast thing. United it would be near unstoppable.


It's like unleashing the entire might of the Tyranids; uniting the Necrons under 1 leader; placing all Orks under the biggest boss eva etc.... Most of those forces could decimate and wipe out most of the other races IF they were united under a single banner for long enough.

Constant political pressures and internal faction elements have constantly prevented that.



I think one Primarch carries the story well when he's got to match himself against many of the other powerful Imperial political and military forces. Just how long CAN he hold onto his power; how long will it be before other groups dislike what he does and work against him, even whilst working for the good of the Imperium.










Then again perhaps another brother returning could spark that off; the Imperium fragmenting down two extremes; one the pure belief in the Emperor as dictated by his direct Primarchs; the other by the various priest groups of the Imperium.

RomulanSoldier wrote:Alternatively, they could kill Guilliman in a tragic "last stand", close the rift, and leave 40K as a sandbox setting for people to tell their own stories, instead of a narrative one subject to good or ill choices that effect everyone.

It still is, or rather, it always had other narratives and sweeping events/choices. The things are just bigger, but because the galaxy is even larger than any of those, you still can do whatever you want in the setting. There's no limit on how many homebrew regiments, craftworlds, and Chapters out there. Your unique hero can still do whatever it was they were doing before the Rift. Just because Guilliman or Calgar or Abaddon or Creed or Eldrad are doing their thing, it doesn't mean you can't too.

Every primarch coming back will be heavily flawed.
The crazed Wulven Logan
The 1 handed dorn
The mentally broken Corvus
The deranged vulkan
The undead sanguinus
And the corrupted lion el Johnson

It’s a bit cheesy that guilliman wasn’t that flawed and only has to wear a exoskeleton to stay alive.

At this point in 40K's life, I'd like to see another primarch appear.

One who isn't happy with Guilliman's hypocrisy and threatens to lead the Imperium into another civil war. One who puts imperial faith to the test as it brings out how flawed its leaders are/were.

40K was always about the long, slow death of mankind, not it's redemption, and with Gulliman alone, that's what its becoming.

Man has no chance, it's just about how its flame will be snuffed out.

gungo wrote:
Every primarch coming back will be heavily flawed.
The crazed Wulven Logan
The 1 handed dorn
The mentally broken Corvus
The deranged vulkan
The undead sanguinus
And the corrupted lion el Johnson

It’s a bit cheesy that guilliman wasn’t that flawed and only has to wear a exoskeleton to stay alive.

Dorn with 1 arm isn’t a flaw. Especially in a universe with cybernetics, biomancy, the ability to regrow organs, etc. Hell, even if you want to say he’ll never be as powerful of a combatant without his true form it’ll still be a massive boon for the Imperium. Now they have one of the greatest defensive generals they ever had, in a time of constant defensive war.

He’s probably the second best Primarch for the Imperium after Gman.

gungo wrote:
Every primarch coming back will be heavily flawed.
The crazed Wulven Logan
The 1 handed dorn
The mentally broken Corvus
The deranged vulkan
The undead sanguinus
And the corrupted lion el Johnson

We have no idea what state Leman Russ would be in these days - I can't rule out a Wulfen form, but I wouldn't assume it, either.

As noted above, Dorn having lost a hand shouldn't be a major issue - at the very least, cybernetics are a thing.

I'd be less worried about Corax's mental state, and more his shadow form, really.

I don't think we have any idea what Vulkan's mental state is like following the War of the Beast, do we, even assuming he survived?

Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus shouldn't make a return at all.

What evidence do you that the Lion is corrupted?

And I find it interesting that you forgot about the Khan altogether, though he'd probably like it that way.

I wouldn't mind seeing Ferrus, but not 'real' ferrus: I'd like to see an update and return of the Legion of the Damned, and 'burning ghost ferrus' would give a nice unique character alongside Centurius with the old man's skull.

I think the only good choice for another primarch is the lion because I think it would ultimately be a bad thing for the imperium.

At first it would be seen as a god hero returning to help save the imperium from its enemies, but I think he would be appalled to see what the empire had become and wouldn’t be able to make peace with it like RG has done. He would directly challenge RG on everything he has done since his return and want to take control of the imperium but not see a way to do it without causing a civil war because he know half of the imperium would be behind him and half with RG and he doesn’t want to be the new horus.

Therefore he takes control of the DA chapter and all of the unforgiven basically having control of a massive legion. The problem is he can’t trust them becuase he’s scarred by Luther’s betrayal and he is now obsessed with finding Luther and chypher and this is what he direct most of the unforgivens resources on, ignoring RGs orders. RG doesn’t know what to do because we know what happens when space marines are sent to teach other space marines a lesson.

Basically there is another great rift in the imperium

None. Please keep them all out of 40K.

If rumors hold true it will happen towards the latter part of this year--I'm sure Angron will be ready for a big hug!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
None. Please keep them all out of 40K.

Like Imperial Knights, that ship has sailed for good or ill. Whether we prefer it or not that is the reality now and it isn't changing.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
None. Please keep them all out of 40K.

Like Imperial Knights, that ship has sailed for good or ill. Whether we prefer it or not that is the reality now and it isn't changing.

I'm fine with Knights and Superheavies being in the game, tbh. (Loyalist) Primarchs running around is stupid.

 Dysartes wrote:

gungo wrote:
Every primarch coming back will be heavily flawed.
The crazed Wulven Logan
The 1 handed dorn
The mentally broken Corvus
The deranged vulkan
The undead sanguinus
And the corrupted lion el Johnson

We have no idea what state Leman Russ would be in these days - I can't rule out a Wulfen form, but I wouldn't assume it, either.

As noted above, Dorn having lost a hand shouldn't be a major issue - at the very least, cybernetics are a thing.

I'd be less worried about Corax's mental state, and more his shadow form, really.

I don't think we have any idea what Vulkan's mental state is like following the War of the Beast, do we, even assuming he survived?

Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus shouldn't make a return at all.

What evidence do you that the Lion is corrupted?

And I find it interesting that you forgot about the Khan altogether, though he'd probably like it that way.

There is literally Almost nothing known about what happened to khan… he chased after some raiders and disappeared into webway or something.. no one knows…
Vulkan is a perpetual that was killed over and over until he went insane..
Corax went emo into the warp
Lion was reportedly taken by the watchers in the dark but he’s the least known about… it basically comes down to is Luther lying?
Sanguinius is reportedly in stasis too…
Ferrus should be dead.. he was decapitated.
We really don’t know how much of dorn is around as all that is left of him was a hand.

Guilliman was literally the least broken primarch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:
I think the only good choice for another primarch is the lion because I think it would ultimately be a bad thing for the imperium.

At first it would be seen as a god hero returning to help save the imperium from its enemies, but I think he would be appalled to see what the empire had become and wouldn’t be able to make peace with it like RG has done. He would directly challenge RG on everything he has done since his return and want to take control of the imperium but not see a way to do it without causing a civil war because he know half of the imperium would be behind him and half with RG and he doesn’t want to be the new horus.

Therefore he takes control of the DA chapter and all of the unforgiven basically having control of a massive legion. The problem is he can’t trust them becuase he’s scarred by Luther’s betrayal and he is now obsessed with finding Luther and chypher and this is what he direct most of the unforgivens resources on, ignoring RGs orders. RG doesn’t know what to do because we know what happens when space marines are sent to teach other space marines a lesson.

Basically there is another great rift in the imperium

your assuming Luther and cypher are bad… they haven’t been corrupted by chaos in all these years which lends me to beleive they aren’t exactly following chaos either.

I'd like to point out that Sanguinius might be in stasis, but he was dead before he was put in stasis.

gungo wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

gungo wrote:
Every primarch coming back will be heavily flawed.
The crazed Wulven Logan
The 1 handed dorn
The mentally broken Corvus
The deranged vulkan
The undead sanguinus
And the corrupted lion el Johnson

We have no idea what state Leman Russ would be in these days - I can't rule out a Wulfen form, but I wouldn't assume it, either.

As noted above, Dorn having lost a hand shouldn't be a major issue - at the very least, cybernetics are a thing.

I'd be less worried about Corax's mental state, and more his shadow form, really.

I don't think we have any idea what Vulkan's mental state is like following the War of the Beast, do we, even assuming he survived?

Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus shouldn't make a return at all.

What evidence do you that the Lion is corrupted?

And I find it interesting that you forgot about the Khan altogether, though he'd probably like it that way.

There is literally Almost nothing known about what happened to khan… he chased after some raiders and disappeared into webway or something.. no one knows…
Vulkan is a perpetual that was killed over and over until he went insane..
Corax went emo into the warp
Lion was reportedly taken by the watchers in the dark but he’s the least known about… it basically comes down to is Luther lying?
Sanguinius is reportedly in stasis too…
Ferrus should be dead.. he was decapitated.
We really don’t know how much of dorn is around as all that is left of him was a hand.

Guilliman was literally the least broken primarch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:
I think the only good choice for another primarch is the lion because I think it would ultimately be a bad thing for the imperium.

At first it would be seen as a god hero returning to help save the imperium from its enemies, but I think he would be appalled to see what the empire had become and wouldn’t be able to make peace with it like RG has done. He would directly challenge RG on everything he has done since his return and want to take control of the imperium but not see a way to do it without causing a civil war because he know half of the imperium would be behind him and half with RG and he doesn’t want to be the new horus.

Therefore he takes control of the DA chapter and all of the unforgiven basically having control of a massive legion. The problem is he can’t trust them becuase he’s scarred by Luther’s betrayal and he is now obsessed with finding Luther and chypher and this is what he direct most of the unforgivens resources on, ignoring RGs orders. RG doesn’t know what to do because we know what happens when space marines are sent to teach other space marines a lesson.

Basically there is another great rift in the imperium

your assuming Luther and cypher are bad… they haven’t been corrupted by chaos in all these years which lends me to beleive they aren’t exactly following chaos either.

But the lion would wake up and his last memory would be of his fight against Luther, good or bad he would seek him out relentlessly. I’m assuming he would have the same attitude to chaperone once he was brought up to speed by Azreal

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

RomulanSoldier wrote:Alternatively, they could kill Guilliman in a tragic "last stand", close the rift, and leave 40K as a sandbox setting for people to tell their own stories, instead of a narrative one subject to good or ill choices that effect everyone.

It still is, or rather, it always had other narratives and sweeping events/choices. The things are just bigger, but because the galaxy is even larger than any of those, you still can do whatever you want in the setting. There's no limit on how many homebrew regiments, craftworlds, and Chapters out there. Your unique hero can still do whatever it was they were doing before the Rift. Just because Guilliman or Calgar or Abaddon or Creed or Eldrad are doing their thing, it doesn't mean you can't too.

This. I think of the named characters as convenient figures to center novels around. But a given 40k novel almost never has any real impact on the setting. The Salamanders Omnibus spent a lot of time talking about Vulkan's treasure hunt and how those relics (and eventually vulkan) could reshape the galaxy. There's a story where we meet a sapient... nanobot murder swarm... thing that allegedly has the power to wipe sectors off the map. I haven't heard of him before or sense that book. A couple of phoenix lords have books plus all their backstory about the rhana dandra, but they've never prevented me from telling the story of my own farseer's schemes and adventures. A novel can revolve around Ahriman becoming the most powerful sorcerer in the galaxy and pulling off planet-shattering spells, but Ahriman is barely even on the radar in terms of most major factions' concerns.

As for brothers returning... I'm less interested in how they'd impact Guilliman and more interested in how they'd go about trying to deal with the 41st millenium. Like, Guilliman becoming the mini-Emperor makes sense given his administration skills and extremely ordered blandness. But I don't see Russ standing around debating paperwork with him all day. I see Russ or the Khan frowning at Guilliman, then heading off to do their own crusades on the areas of the map Guilliman can't reach or be bothered with. I see Vulkan going from place to place making smaller sections of the map independently strong and self-reliant rather than relying on sweeping, Indomitus-style crusades. I see Corax identifying some of the bigger players among the imperium's enemies and cutting their legs out from under them, methodically crippling the Thousand Sons or the Emperor's Children, or Huron's little empire or whatever other enemy has the audacity to form a semi-coherent organization capable of creating large-scale problems. Basically, most of the other loyalist primarchs are at least as interesting as Guilliman, and I'm more interested in watching them do their own things than listening to them argue with one of their least-interesting brothers.

That said, I'm not in a hurry to add more loyalist primarchs to the 41st millenium. Having one loyalist and two daemon primarchs back already gives the game an uncomfortably Heresy-scented smell. And I certainly wouldn't want Sanguinius or Ferrus to return; coming back would cheapen their chapters' thematics considerably.

I too believe that THE best choice for another Loyalist Primarch would be Lion'el Johnson. He's smart, and a great tactician, but he doesn't play the crowd like Roboute. He's more of a man of deeds than words. His men do love him, but I'm not sure if he'd ever 100% trust his own men again.

The one thing I could see as a bonus to having Russ is that he'd be A LOT different to Robby G on the tabletop. A Giant wolf-mutated Primarch would be the only really way to get a super-beatstick character for the Imperium. Robby G isn't too bad, but seriously, look at the rumored stats for Abadon and tell me that RG is better.

I think there is a good chance that we will get a second "returned" primarch and then have a second Horus Heresy style civil war.

Think about it: GW likes making money, HH has been rather successful, and right now we have a whole bunch of Imperial factions that are all mostly buddy-buddy.

You throw in a second "returned primarch" and you have a perfect excuse to split the Imperium, differentiating the factions more and adding a lot of the narrative hook that drove the HH.

That's my prediction anyway!

 Insectum7 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
None. Please keep them all out of 40K.

Like Imperial Knights, that ship has sailed for good or ill. Whether we prefer it or not that is the reality now and it isn't changing.

I'm fine with Knights and Superheavies being in the game, tbh. (Loyalist) Primarchs running around is stupid.

In your opinion. Others are the reverse, feeling that Primarchs are OK but superheavies are not. Personally I would have liked if they all stayed out of 40k, but like I said before the ship has sailed. Wallowing in how stupid/wrong/bad one finds it to be doesn't do anyone any good, at this point we should just accept & move on. Use that energy on things that CAN change.

leerm02 wrote:
I think there is a good chance that we will get a second "returned" primarch and then have a second Horus Heresy style civil war.

Think about it: GW likes making money, HH has been rather successful, and right now we have a whole bunch of Imperial factions that are all mostly buddy-buddy.

You throw in a second "returned primarch" and you have a perfect excuse to split the Imperium, differentiating the factions more and adding a lot of the narrative hook that drove the HH.

That's my prediction anyway!

Respectfully, I hope GW doesn't go that direction. They already have HH (a new edition even) for players that want to smash primarchs together. If 40k started focusing on a civil war where primarchs fight each other, that would be a bit too redundant for my taste.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
None. Please keep them all out of 40K.

Like Imperial Knights, that ship has sailed for good or ill. Whether we prefer it or not that is the reality now and it isn't changing.

I'm fine with Knights and Superheavies being in the game, tbh. (Loyalist) Primarchs running around is stupid.

In your opinion. Others are the reverse, feeling that Primarchs are OK but superheavies are not. Personally I would have liked if they all stayed out of 40k, but like I said before the ship has sailed. Wallowing in how stupid/wrong/bad one finds it to be doesn't do anyone any good, at this point we should just accept & move on. Use that energy on things that CAN change.

It can change, put Guilliman back into stasis . Or just retcon the whole thing.

Guilliman is fine… the only issue I would have with Primarchs is the inevitable hero hammer game… and so far the demon Primarchs, guiliman, even the silent king, or ghazskull haven’t lead to hero hammer.

 Overread wrote:
Personally I'd rather see him struggle on dealing with the growing political realities of the current era of the setting. Adding more Primarchs would likely increase the power base of the Imperium and part of what keeps the setting going is not letting one force get their head up.

Imperium starting to get united shuts down so many other elements because its a vast thing. United it would be near unstoppable.


It's like unleashing the entire might of the Tyranids; uniting the Necrons under 1 leader; placing all Orks under the biggest boss eva etc.... Most of those forces could decimate and wipe out most of the other races IF they were united under a single banner for long enough.

Constant political pressures and internal faction elements have constantly prevented that.



I think one Primarch carries the story well when he's got to match himself against many of the other powerful Imperial political and military forces. Just how long CAN he hold onto his power; how long will it be before other groups dislike what he does and work against him, even whilst working for the good of the Imperium.










Then again perhaps another brother returning could spark that off; the Imperium fragmenting down two extremes; one the pure belief in the Emperor as dictated by his direct Primarchs; the other by the various priest groups of the Imperium.

In theory, if the lion returned it would destabilize the IOM - Is he going to go along with whatever G man has been doing? Would G man trust him to begin with or would it just spark a new civil war? Something in between.

Something that could work is Lion returning, everyone is happy. Until he tells the ecclesiarch to F off and does his own thing without telling anyone anything. Th ecclesiarchy would then try to instigate a power coup and force g man to declare against the lion by bringing up the "fallen" as a reason why he cant be trusted.

I don't think in terms of the setting a primarch returning would automatically ruin it. It could make for some good story telling and fit in the traditional grim dark tragedy where even if someone wins, "Everyone looses"

Every primarch should return. We know that a lot of them will, with time. But I cannot figure out what the "just as planned" idea is GW is working with at the moment because it's two years past time for a second loyalist to return.

There is no 'just as planned.' The primarchs were mythical demigods lost in prehistory. The folktales had a Ragnarok edge to them, but the primarchs turning up isn't something that was ever in the cards, anymore than you expect Hercules to turn up at your house.


At this point, they could do something with another 1 or 2, but it doesn't really have an endgame. Its actually a more 'so what?' than a big moment, because the game (and therefor the setting) can't proceed to anything resembling resolution.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
None. Please keep them all out of 40K.

Like Imperial Knights, that ship has sailed for good or ill. Whether we prefer it or not that is the reality now and it isn't changing.

I'm fine with Knights and Superheavies being in the game, tbh. (Loyalist) Primarchs running around is stupid.

In your opinion. Others are the reverse, feeling that Primarchs are OK but superheavies are not. Personally I would have liked if they all stayed out of 40k, but like I said before the ship has sailed. Wallowing in how stupid/wrong/bad one finds it to be doesn't do anyone any good, at this point we should just accept & move on. Use that energy on things that CAN change.

It can change, put Guilliman back into stasis . Or just retcon the whole thing.

or maybe you could focus on what you like and stop pissing in other peoples corn flakes?