How do!

Why no, this dead horse hasn’t been flogged enough, thank you for asking.

And no. I’m not a Chaos player.

Yes. I did field Iron Warriors in the Glory Days of 3.5

No I’m not championing Chaos wanting to dust off that army, because I sold it….20 years ago. Quite possibly to the day. But that’s another story.

Rather I’m a background junkie that wants to see Chaos represented on the board as it’s been portrayed in the background. And y’know, Not Be The Red Headed Stepchild of 40K.

Now I’ve advocated in the past for Chaos to be a single, massive Codex. All its aspests forced and squished into one volume. The sort which would prove a genuine health hazard if left teetering on the edge of a table as an infant takes its first, faltering crawl beneath. But I do recognise not all can be trusted with such a cornucopia of crazy, and the resulting math hammered lists would not only be tedious for others to fight? But entirely defy why I want it all in a single glorious tome.

And this thread isn’t adjusting that. Well not really. I may wibble on long enough that it does come back around.

But I want to talk Legions. The Cult Legions. Those are irritating me greatly.

See, they’re almost too pure. They don’t seem to allow for relatively recently joined acolyte, journeyman, or aspirant units. Think Chaos Space Marines, recently created, who perhaps haven’t earned The Butcher’s Nails yet, or whichever disease marks a Deathguard out from A Particularly Smelly Chaos Marine etc.

Every Legion needs fresh blood. Or pus. Or dust. Or let’s just not think about Emperor’s Children too much.

And those are the units they currently need to ally in. Which is BS.

Look to the Loyalists. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Woofs etc all have their Chapter specific Extra Special Guys. And whilst those commonly replace other units? They don’t tend to lose access to Stock Space Marine Units. All the bells and whistles, and still comfortably housed in the wider church.

Why not the Legions? They’re particularly specialised mentalists being those of long standing. The super turbo nutters who may very well have been getting nuttier and turboier for 10,000 years. But as much as there’ll be ways of war they entirely shun, there are plenty left there are worst ambivalent about. So why excise everything that’s not Super Turbo Nutter? It don’t make no sense. At all.

What’s sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander after all.

C’mon GW. Play fair. Stop giving Chaos the crappy end of the stick. End the era of Flavoured Chaos being restricted to fewer units than Loyalist have characters.

And whilst you’re at it? Lost and The Damned, in the next 24 months, or I’ll come poop through your letterbox.

I did field Iron Warriors in the Glory Days of 3.5

I sold it….20 years ago. Quite possibly to the day.

If you called it the 2003 codex, then it’d be more obvious you mean you built, played, and sold the army in the space of around six months. It’s good and healthy to say the year, as if you were talking about something that happened in the real world.


I liked codex: Eye of Terror, and the redemptionist unit one of my friends got from I think Citadel Journal, and the properly good army my friend’s Thousand Sons became when white dwarf gave them teleporting sorcerors with a power called The Key.

The lesson is the same as always: only trust your fists, the police will never help you.

You should play Heresy instead. The Traitor Legions are allowed to be cool there.

Part of the issue for the Cult troops is simply that (canonically) those Legions aren't growing, they aren't recruiting, and indeed they are just the hard core original marines with 10k years of accumulated XP.

I could probably dig out Codex: Eye of Terror from the closet if I had to, and I agree - it was a neat little add-on. Some cultists, some traitor guard, a few gibbering mutants - it lets you add models and flavor, as well as some interesting modeling opportunities, but without trying to duplicate the novices that, say, Black Templar used to be able to field in numbers.

I do miss having Daemons in the CSM codex, instead of having to ally them in. Can't really do a 50/50 mix of CSM & Daemons under the current rules.

 Janthkin wrote:
Part of the issue for the Cult troops is simply that (canonically) those Legions aren't growing, they aren't recruiting, and indeed they are just the hard core original marines with 10k years of accumulated XP.

I don;'t have codex 1k sons or world eaters but insofar as the death guard are concerned this is explictly NOT the case per their most recent codex

It does indeed feel daft. The only reason I'm considering building a KHAOS army (Credo!) now is the fact the index finally allows to cram in Traitor guard, cultists, mutants and Beastmen to the army.

Then again, this combo will undoubtedly be invalidated as soon as Codex CSM releases, so not going to bother

But I see what you mean - there shouldn't be any reason why you couldn't add generic Black Legionnaires to any CSM subfaction. I'm not buying this "lore" about these dudes being 10,000 years old veterans, their statlines dont reflect such powers in the slightest

BrianDavion wrote:
I don;'t have codex 1k sons or world eaters but insofar as the death guard are concerned this is explictly NOT the case per their most recent codex

And didn't the recent Arks of Omen books point out that the World Eaters are far from the "shattered scattered warbands" that people have been painting them as for years now?

I'm not as old as some on this forum but for as long as I can remember, the Legions never stopped recruiting, it just changed drastically and became more amalgamation of Warbands and individuals than fief worlds.

There have been novels and short stories featuring Astartes who have joined a Legion Warband long after the Heresy and IIRC there was a portion of a Chapter that joined the Death Guard during the Abyssal Crusade.

I think I’d feel better overall if the Cult Legions had a greater variety of Stuff.

Deathguard, despite the repetitive models, are almost there. Daemon Engines, Infantry, Heavy Infantry, all unique to their Legion.

But World Eaters and Thousand Sons feel anaemic in that regard. Like someone was carrying all the moulds originally made, and dropped half of them into Mount Doom or something.

They just don’t feel Special Enough.

 Janthkin wrote:
Part of the issue for the Cult troops is simply that (canonically) those Legions aren't growing, they aren't recruiting, and indeed they are just the hard core original marines with 10k years of accumulated XP.

Plenty of the legions have continued to recruit new marines, either converts or literally growing more marines (Sup Honsou!), so their numbers are always in flux but will effectively never go to 0 I feel, since their methods are not hindred by strict Ad Mech control and quite often even the failures are chained up and thrown at the enemy like Spawn

I've never figured out why the various legions don't pillage after the battle is over (assuming that they hold the field). I mean why are they not allowed to have cyclone missile launchers and/or assault cannons? Are they afraid that the devices will explode upon coming in contact with them? Don't they have their own techs who could duplicate those weapons? Let alone inviting some of the Loyalists over to their side of the spectrum and heaven forbid if they bring their shiny new toys with them.

It just doesn't make sense that CSM have a smaller choice of weapons than Loyalists. If anything, they should have more choices due to not only recovering weapons on the battlefield or gaining them through seducing new recruits they also don't have any limitation on what techs can try to produce using the same weapon with a chaos twist.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

It just doesn't make sense that CSM have a smaller choice of weapons than Loyalists. If anything, they should have more choices due to not only recovering weapons on the battlefield or gaining them through seducing new recruits they also don't have any limitation on what techs can try to produce using the same weapon with a chaos twist.

Chaos can't be better than the poster-boys!

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I've never figured out why the various legions don't pillage after the battle is over (assuming that they hold the field). I mean why are they not allowed to have cyclone missile launchers and/or assault cannons? Are they afraid that the devices will explode upon coming in contact with them? Don't they have their own techs who could duplicate those weapons? Let alone inviting some of the Loyalists over to their side of the spectrum and heaven forbid if they bring their shiny new toys with them.

It just doesn't make sense that CSM have a smaller choice of weapons than Loyalists. If anything, they should have more choices due to not only recovering weapons on the battlefield or gaining them through seducing new recruits they also don't have any limitation on what techs can try to produce using the same weapon with a chaos twist.

I think its because these use ammo CSM/Darkmech don't have easy access to. Don't quote me on that tho.


CSM should be the ones still using weird 30k weaponry like C-beams and Volkite. I'm super salty that loyalists are starting to get volkite again

CSM just needed to get weapons made by the Dark Mech and that has been done one whole time with the Chaincannon which is just a smaller version of the one on the Forgefiend.
The Daemon Engines were actually a move in the right direction where we had weapons that were CSM weapons and not just older versions of current Loyalist gear.

 Gert wrote:
CSM just needed to get weapons made by the Dark Mech and that has been done one whole time with the Chaincannon which is just a smaller version of the one on the Forgefiend.
The Daemon Engines were actually a move in the right direction where we had weapons that were CSM weapons and not just older versions of current Loyalist gear.

i'd say only the FW Daemon engines have really unique feeling weapons, most of the GW ones have Imperium weapons but with an evil name.

 Gert wrote:
CSM just needed to get weapons made by the Dark Mech and that has been done one whole time with the Chaincannon which is just a smaller version of the one on the Forgefiend.
The Daemon Engines were actually a move in the right direction where we had weapons that were CSM weapons and not just older versions of current Loyalist gear.

? the chain cannon is a rotor cannon from the heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!


C’mon GW. Play fair. Stop giving Chaos the crappy end of the stick. End the era of Flavoured Chaos being restricted to fewer units than Loyalist have characters.

And whilst you’re at it? Lost and The Damned, in the next 24 months, or I’ll come poop through your letterbox.

Fine.

Whilest i appreciate the enthusiasm, please let's not devolve back to fecal slining ancestry of ours.

We got technology now.

however, considering how condensed down the game has become... i doubt you could make anything worthwhile.

From what I understand about cult lore, it is impossible to create new 1ksons sons, and in the case of WE and DG the legions structure are broken up, so most of the time they aren't even able to recreate a space marine. They either order them from people like Bile or have something more kin to the inducti programs of Horus Heresy, but without the resources, knowladge and the cadre who are professional enough , and not too far gone, to perform the procedures. On top of that the EC and WE didn't function as an organisation since the legion war. Which is a long time.
Then there is a cult thing. Khorn doesn't make different types of followers, netiher does nurgle. They just do the same, but more. More plague marine then a regular plague marine, a bigger berzerker etc And while Nurgle does leave some freedom in how his followers can function, Khorn is all about being a mono maniac. Tzeench would be the prime source of |"different" type of mariens, but he happens to be locked in to Chaos Undead The Faction.

EC when GW makes them could be the most different. Right of the gate they have a split between the "normal" cult EC and noise marines. And each could, doesn't mean they will, have its own "troop/elite/FA/Heavy/" etc.

Karol wrote:
From what I understand about cult lore, it is impossible to create new 1ksons sons, and in the case of WE and DG the legions structure are broken up, so most of the time they aren't even able to recreate a space marine. They either order them from people like Bile or have something more kin to the inducti programs of Horus Heresy, but without the resources, knowladge and the cadre who are professional enough , and not too far gone, to perform the procedures. On top of that the EC and WE didn't function as an organisation since the legion war. Which is a long time.
Then there is a cult thing. Khorn doesn't make different types of followers, netiher does nurgle. They just do the same, but more. More plague marine then a regular plague marine, a bigger berzerker etc And while Nurgle does leave some freedom in how his followers can function, Khorn is all about being a mono maniac. Tzeench would be the prime source of |"different" type of mariens, but he happens to be locked in to Chaos Undead The Faction.

EC when GW makes them could be the most different. Right of the gate they have a split between the "normal" cult EC and noise marines. And each could, doesn't mean they will, have its own "troop/elite/FA/Heavy/" etc.

New Thousand Sons are possible, new Rubrics isnt.

Thousand Sons still boster their ranks with new sorcerers as those are "perishables"

How does one make a new 1ksons when 90+% of them are dust and the rest is chaos spawn level material or dust too ? And this is not some "you are wrong thing", I am actualy curious how they do it. I don't read much w40k books, and most I did, were old.

Karol wrote:
How does one make a new 1ksons when 90+% of them are dust and the rest is chaos spawn level material or dust too ? And this is not some "you are wrong thing", I am actualy curious how they do it. I don't read much w40k books, and most I did, were old.

"Oh hey, you've got some psychic capabilities, wanna join us?"

The only dusty ones are the rubrics and scarabs. Squad leaders, Sorcerers and Helbrutes are all un-dusted. They have mutations, sure, but theyre not dust. Take a look at the exalted sorcerer kit, plenty of fleshy bits in there.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!


And whilst you’re at it? Lost and The Damned, in the next 24 months, or I’ll come poop through your letterbox.

Wow, you're really dead angry about this one Doc. Hope for GW to not let this charitable warning be ignored or Doc's wrath will fall upon them.

For this reply not to be purely out of context and slowed, I'd say I agree. Chaos has got so many flavours of it: newer traitor marines, each legions, lost and the damned, demons, traitor guards, rare chaos orks, beastmen (yes they are a thing and their is no debating this ), dark mechanicum, piratic warband, nurgle zombies... even maybe DoW3's army of spectres (I actually am intend on making such an army based on a 7th khorne deamonkin or whatever its called).

Really, there's just as much variety in chaos forces if not more as there is in imperial forces. GW runs on so few characterful stuff for them while there could be so many... They'd need to release books for those.

At least maybe a CSM codex as in 3.5 with full legion traits and the ability to build a non legion warband, a book for demons, a book for "auxiliares" or "non astartes" with army lists for lost and the damned, traitor militia à la vraks and tyrant's legion, beastmen... Plus maybe a fourth for dark mechanicum if you didn't include them in a CM codex. With a system of alliances between them all.

Thing is, as a player with a disproportiate love for scenario and narrative play, I don't mind GW releasing army leasts rather than full codices if necessary. I'm not bothered if the beastmen army list hasn't got, say, elite troops choices, because as long as it is relatively playable, well, it'll just be the army's DNA and a lot of character. This way they could greatly expand the range of possible units for your chaos.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


"Oh hey, you've got some psychic capabilities, wanna join us?"

The only dusty ones are the rubrics and scarabs. Squad leaders, Sorcerers and Helbrutes are all un-dusted. They have mutations, sure, but theyre not dust. Take a look at the exalted sorcerer kit, plenty of fleshy bits in there.

Hmm interesting about the dreadnoughts I thought they would either end up like regular dust dudes or get the sorcerors treatment.

I do think the Detachment system could be the salvation (heh!) of Chaos overall.

Imagine extra-codicil Detachments. Proscribing the units it allows, with any not mentioned not being allow (I think proscribe is the right term, if not remember I never claimed not to be an idiot), and from there Taking Whatever You Bloody Well Please.

Whilst ideally it wouldn’t mean having to own one of every single Naughty Codex, we sadly have to live in the now and accept that….that’s exactly the price Chaos Players would have to literally pay. I’m…kind of ambivalent about that. Maybe accepting, arguably stoic. Capitalism gonna Capitalism type fatalism.

But give Chaos extra-codicil rules for mixing and matching between the more rigid forces.

While we are negging CSM, I cannot understand why TS sorcerers can only use dust as their building blocks for new troops. It would seem like a nobrainer to expand sorcery to master other substances..

 tauist wrote:
While we are negging CSM, I cannot understand why TS sorcerers can only use dust as their building blocks for new troops. It would seem like a nobrainer to expand sorcery to master other substances..

When the TS are more stagnant than the average nurgle worshipper

 tauist wrote:
While we are negging CSM, I cannot understand why TS sorcerers can only use dust as their building blocks for new troops. It would seem like a nobrainer to expand sorcery to master other substances..

Cos it's magic dust you philistine. Also, casting the Rubric was very very very forbidden after Ahriman and his mates did it the first time.
Ergo Cultists and Goat-Birds became the newest recruits, alongside various renegade wizards of course.

Karol wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


"Oh hey, you've got some psychic capabilities, wanna join us?"

The only dusty ones are the rubrics and scarabs. Squad leaders, Sorcerers and Helbrutes are all un-dusted. They have mutations, sure, but theyre not dust. Take a look at the exalted sorcerer kit, plenty of fleshy bits in there.

Hmm interesting about the dreadnoughts I thought they would either end up like regular dust dudes or get the sorcerors treatment.

They actually trick Marines from other legions into becoming helbrutes. They promise them knowledge and power then just stick them into a sarcophagus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tauist wrote:
While we are negging CSM, I cannot understand why TS sorcerers can only use dust as their building blocks for new troops. It would seem like a nobrainer to expand sorcery to master other substances..

The "new" TS members are the sorcerers you'll field in-game. And i'm pretty sure they don't control the shape of the dust and that it just remakes itself into the same rubrics/scarabs everytime.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

They actually trick Marines from other legions into becoming helbrutes. They promise them knowledge and power then just stick them into a sarcophagus.

"Yes brother, all the knowledge you desire is in this tiny unlit room, just step in. Excellent, now you'll know all the secre... SIKE!" *slams sarcophagus door shut*

Explains why hellbrutes are so angry I guess.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think I’d feel better overall if the Cult Legions had a greater variety of Stuff.

Once upon a time we did. Plague Marine didn't just mean a unit of 5, 7 or 10 guys with non-repeating weapon options. It meant anyone from Plague Marine Terminators to Plague Marine Havocs. I kept my Death Guard army with the Sacred Numbers, so 4x7 Plague Marine Squads, and 3x7 Plague Havoc Squads (for 7 squads in total). Then a few 14-man Plague Bearer squads (man, Daemons in squads other than 10... what a wild time... ), and a 7-man Plague Terminator Squads (100% illegal models these days, BTW, thanks to, of all things, the Death Guard getting their own codex).

Now I like how they have a lot of Nurgle-specific Daemon Engines, but I don't think that should come at the cost of standard Chaos units. Plague Possessed, Plague Havocs, Plague Raptors/Bikers (if you consider those fluffy). We can have a Forge Fiend with a MoN in the Chaos list, but no Death Guard version.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But World Eaters and Thousand Sons feel anaemic in that regard. Like someone was carrying all the moulds originally made, and dropped half of them into Mount Doom or something.

Thousand Sons were the last proper Marine release before mono-pose optionless crap took over GW's design ethos. As it happens, Death Guard were the first Chaos release in the current era. Aside from that Thousand Sons got their expansion when GW just decided to be lazy and dump all the AoS Tzaangor stuff on them. I like having the AoS Tzaangor stuff - I'd rather have it than not have it - but it has come at the expense of actual Thousand Sons models.

As for WE... well they're trainwreck from start to finish. Completely gutted from a modelling and option perspective, and Flanderised to the point where Space Wolves looked nuanced (oh look, we have Berzerkers, Berzerker Berzerkers, or Berzerker Bezerker Berzerkers... all lead by a cavalry model who couldn't be more out of place if he tried! What abundant choice!). They're a half-Codex, and I'm hoping that like Sisters before them (and hopefully Votann), we're just waiting on the new book to get the other half.

shortymcnostrill wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

They actually trick Marines from other legions into becoming helbrutes. They promise them knowledge and power then just stick them into a sarcophagus.

"Yes brother, all the knowledge you desire is in this tiny unlit room, just step in. Excellent, now you'll know all the secre... SIKE!" *slams sarcophagus door shut*

Explains why hellbrutes are so angry I guess.

Unironically how they do it lol, and yeah, helbrutes "pilots" are in constant pain and kept awake during most of their "dormant" periods, theyre just unplugged from the killy part of the dread

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Imagine extra-codicil Detachments. Proscribing the units it allows, with any not mentioned not being allow (I think proscribe is the right term, if not remember I never claimed not to be an idiot), and from there Taking Whatever You Bloody Well Please.

That's basically how some of the Legendary Legion army ilsts in MESBG work, for example, Men of the West draws a restricted list of units from (I think) 4 different army lists: The Fellowship, Gondor, Rohan, Fiefdoms.

Personally I think an all-singing-all-dancing Codex could be done in a book similar to the larger FW Imperial Armour/Horus Heresy tomes.

Question though..... recently renegade chapters are likely to fit a Loyalist archetype, why could that not simply be done with Loyalist Codex/Detachment + Allied Daemons?

World Eaters are definitely a baffling one.

No Jugger Cavalry. No Cult Terminators.

The latter one is truly baffling, as Red Butchers from the Heresy era are such a strong concept. Marines so far gone from the Butcher’s Nails, they’re sealed in remotely activated Terminator Armour. When not required for battle, they’re keep up on chains, their deactivated armour acting as a prison.

Now imagine those, but 40,000 years later. They’re armour tattered and hastily repaired, with daemon embellishment.

Give them something like a compulsory teleport deployment, to represent the safest way to get such loonies on and off ship.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
World Eaters are definitely a baffling one.

No Jugger Cavalry. No Cult Terminators.

The latter one is truly baffling, as Red Butchers from the Heresy era are such a strong concept. Marines so far gone from the Butcher’s Nails, they’re sealed in remotely activated Terminator Armour. When not required for battle, they’re keep up on chains, their deactivated armour acting as a prison.

Now imagine those, but 40,000 years later. They’re armour tattered and hastily repaired, with daemon embellishment.

Give them something like a compulsory teleport deployment, to represent the safest way to get such loonies on and off ship.

WE is 100% getting a wave 2 that brings all the obviously missing units (copium).

I remain of opinion the lists don't offer the flexibility you can get from the model range.
They need to have a more varied selection of core representing the different possibilities.
So the vet of long war set up. The types of mixed squads you see in the fluff. Squads along lines of deathwatch with mix of CSM, havocs, raptors, terminators etc.
The core legion/new renegades squads. 10-20 marines in the style of the old legions but also newly turned chapters where organisation has broken down and the squads form around charismatic leaders.
Then the existing smaller squads showing ex loyalists and more tactical groups of renegades.

Would give flexibility to do different legions and different sorts of warbands.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
World Eaters are definitely a baffling one.

No Jugger Cavalry. No Cult Terminators.

The latter one is truly baffling, as Red Butchers from the Heresy era are such a strong concept. Marines so far gone from the Butcher’s Nails, they’re sealed in remotely activated Terminator Armour. When not required for battle, they’re keep up on chains, their deactivated armour acting as a prison.

Now imagine those, but 40,000 years later. They’re armour tattered and hastily repaired, with daemon embellishment.

Give them something like a compulsory teleport deployment, to represent the safest way to get such loonies on and off ship.

WE is 100% getting a wave 2 that brings all the obviously missing units (copium).

You mean what players should've demanded rightfully be there and yet bought it anyways.

I'm in the same boat with my TS army. Love the models and the modelling potential, but the army is overall rather lazy. You have Magnus, Rubrics and Scarabs, and the rest of the unique army is just AoS stuff ported over with a couple of Autopistols thrown in. The worst part is the Tzaangors come with additional bits, such as twin-handed swords, champions and shields but GW didn't add rules for them.

Really hoping we get additional units but my cynical side is telling me we'll get the usual "Here's a new character you didn't need" schtick.

For those who play TS, what other Marine units might you suggest?

Porting over from 2nd Ed Epic, I’d love to see exotic Heavy Weapon troops riding Discs. Something oddly nippy to offset the plodding nature of the main infantry, and some Legion specific Daemon Engines. Ones on the smaller side, like the Nurglesque ones.

That's a great idea! We only really have cultists and jakhals (who are just jacked up berzerkers, so they don't really count). It would be so cool to have some kind of special cultist or traitor guard rule which gave them different stats or rules per legion. Would expand the converting options greatly

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I remain of opinion the lists don't offer the flexibility you can get from the model range.
They need to have a more varied selection of core representing the different possibilities.
So the vet of long war set up. The types of mixed squads you see in the fluff. Squads along lines of deathwatch with mix of CSM, havocs, raptors, terminators etc.
The core legion/new renegades squads. 10-20 marines in the style of the old legions but also newly turned chapters where organisation has broken down and the squads form around charismatic leaders.
Then the existing smaller squads showing ex loyalists and more tactical groups of renegades.

Would give flexibility to do different legions and different sorts of warbands.

That’s a very cool idea.

In the previous edition, I was advocating for squads having a choice in unit Champion, anywhere from Aspiring to Lord, to represent not all Warbands are huge, sprawling affair.

But your one works nicely too.

The Kill Team unit was previously the closest expression of that we’ve seen, with mini-Sorcerors and the ilk within the squad.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For those who play TS, what other Marine units might you suggest?

Porting over from 2nd Ed Epic, I’d love to see exotic Heavy Weapon troops riding Discs. Something oddly nippy to offset the plodding nature of the main infantry, and some Legion specific Daemon Engines. Ones on the smaller side, like the Nurglesque ones.

Doomknight-ish models
Melee rubrics
Mirrorfiend
Silver tower fortification (i don't care if it sucks even)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For those who play TS, what other Marine units might you suggest?

Porting over from 2nd Ed Epic, I’d love to see exotic Heavy Weapon troops riding Discs. Something oddly nippy to offset the plodding nature of the main infantry, and some Legion specific Daemon Engines. Ones on the smaller side, like the Nurglesque ones.

TS Havocs: I picture them as carrying either SRCs or some sort of Psy-Lascannon and a unique power that boosts their accuracy.
Elite Scarabs: Maybe something like the Phoenix Guard, just a pair of halberd-wielding Scarabs, although with the changes to characters in 10th they may already be a bit obsolete.
I could see TS Bikers being a thing, but I'm guessing I'm in a minority on that one.

I think that a huge mistake was made by pushing Tzeentch fully into the wizards and rubrics direction. It makes it much harder to do all the interesting things you'd expect from the followers of a god of change. And it of course also doesn't work for anyone else following Tzeentch. I however do think that there is room for some more variety. It's not like the legions that became cult legions didn't have units like bikers, heavy weapons troops, or things like that. Those can certainly be included. As for the Thousand Sons, you could also have more recent units of minor psykers if that's the direction they want to go into, including all sorts of gribbly mutations.

The other cult legions can also have things like that. I generally think that it was a bad idea to give them independent codices that pulled them away from the rest of what their forces would have been like. Having a few cult units available would have worked much better, also in the context of armies being a warband or collection of warbands instead of a fully organised and uniformed force.

And I'll spare everyone the rant about how they already took the wrong path when they removed the integrated appraoch of Beasts, Mortals, and Daemons of Chaos in Fantasy.

I don’t mind the separate Codex approach. But, I don’t like the finickity allying rules, which prevent a truly chaotic looking army being collected.

But this is something I feel Detachments can readily and handily address. Add in a list of valid units, listing which Codex they can be found in. Or just which Codecies can be drawn on.

Yes that could make for some powerful combos. But you could balance it by not having a Detachment Special Bonus. The bonus being your wide choice of units.

Moaning about Chaos? A Slaanesh project in the making I assume...

No.

In the mating.

Bow Chika Wow Wow!

I'll rate this pun Doc/20





Yes I'm using french notations

GW also need to really pull their finger out and do Lost and Damned.

Not just naughty guardsmen who deserve a hot bottom and then straight to bed without any rations, but cults, mutants, beastmen, and all the weird little gribblies in between.

Because it is and has always been Cult and Illicit Gatherings that Chaos has drawn its true strength from.

It’s the mortals being so easily and often willingly corrupted and swollen with borrowed power that has kept The Imperium chasing its tail for 10,000 years.

Now, granted, Chaos is somewhat boxed into a corner here, because the GSC range does a bang up job of being “citizens that have done some terrible things, and want to do”, from the overall structure, super specialised characters and repurposed industrial equipment.

But…part of me is thinking….so what?. Why shouldn’t a Chaos Cult Army have a structure and unit choice lifted and repurposed from GSC? Don’t just change names and design though. Just, share stuff like weapons and vehicles.

Reflect on the board that in the background, GSC often go undetected despite engagement because “a bunch of weirdo mutants driving around in upgunned civilian vehicles” is just put down to Chaos Cult activity and Yes Sir We Absolutely Got Them All, Triple Thumbs Up”

Show the twin cancers rotting away the heart of The Imperium. How a relative handful of survivors can scurry away and metastases into a new form over time.

Just….please be more than Guard But These Ones Am Spiky.

Chaos IMO should have these books :

-Slaves to Darkness ("Black legion" + Belakor)
-Thousand Sons (TS + Tzeentch Demons)
-Death Guard (DG + Nurgle demons)
-World Eaters (WE + khorne demons)
-Emperor's children (EC + slaanesh demons)
-lost and damned (chaos guard)
-Dark mechanicus
-Chaos knights

Let Slaves To Darkness bring any unit as allies

Restrict the god-legions to only L&D/Darkmech/Chaosknight allies

On the title of Slaves to Darkness?

Yes.

We need the self destructive tragedy of Chaos back. That for a time, and varying from devotee to devotee, embracing the Chaos Gods does bring you freedom. You can throw off the shackles of mortal servitude, and embrace your passions. Just…..to find out far, far too late you’ve swapped mortal shackles for immortal ones. Even a Daemon Prince lacks full agency.

Well, heck, you just have to look at Age of Sigmar and Warcry (or even Underworlds) to see some of the stuff that GW could do with Chaos cultists if they put their production budget to it.

The current non-Marine Chaos offerings in 40k look pretty cool.

All solid mono-pose optionless models, but beyond that they certainly look the part.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The current non-Marine Chaos offerings in 40k look pretty cool.

All solid mono-pose optionless models, but beyond that they certainly look the part.

The solution to the mono-pose problem:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Chaos IMO should have these books :

-Slaves to Darkness ("Black legion" + Belakor)
-Thousand Sons (TS + Tzeentch Demons)
-Death Guard (DG + Nurgle demons)
-World Eaters (WE + khorne demons)
-Emperor's children (EC + slaanesh demons)
-lost and damned (chaos guard)
-Dark mechanicus
-Chaos knights it

Good lord. Eight books, and pure daemons would still be lacking support.
Why not throw in Chaos Eldar while we're at it?

ccs wrote:
The solution to the mono-pose problem:

Cute, but no. Also misses the point of why mono-pose is so bad: It's not just a modelling thing that can be solved with a fething blade and some glue. Monopose has a direct and immedate impact on the RULES and the OPTIONS that units have.

How the hell can we be this far into NMNR and you still don't grasp such a basic concept? Or you do understand that, but just wanted to go for a cheap shot. Which is it?

It’s especially disappointing/frustrating for Chaos, who are probably the galactic force least disposed to a recognisable order of battle.

A Tactical Squad’s load out is set out in the Codex Astartes.

A Chaos Marine Squad’s load out is, background wise, only really limited by what they’ve been able to steal, seize, or barter for, or perhaps their Aspiring Champion’s own preference.

The Kill Team version as mentioned before is really close to realising that potential, with various mini-specialists in among the regular dudes, representing Marines starting to embrace their passions, and who might one day grow to a position of genuine power and authority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I do agree the range is looking pretty spectacular these days. I’d still like more cosmetic level mutations and Greeblies, but the overall aesthetic is easily the best it’s been in ages, if not ever.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Chaos IMO should have these books :

-Slaves to Darkness ("Black legion" + Belakor)
-Thousand Sons (TS + Tzeentch Demons)
-Death Guard (DG + Nurgle demons)
-World Eaters (WE + khorne demons)
-Emperor's children (EC + slaanesh demons)
-lost and damned (chaos guard)
-Dark mechanicus
-Chaos knights it

Good lord. Eight books, and pure daemons would still be lacking support.
Why not throw in Chaos Eldar while we're at it?

I agree. I think GW should be encouraging more creativity in how players approach armies and actively encouraging using the IG and AM books to create Chaos versions of those armies. You don't need super Chaosy rules to run Dark Mechanicum. Ad Mech are already pretty twisted and messed up anyway, and for the most part I don't think a Chaos Guard army would work much differently to a regular Guard army.

Unfortunately, GW insist on every last unit having a bespoke special rule and every kit having its own unit entry, so we now have specific Cadian and not-Krieg squads on top of regular Infantry Squads, for example. IMO, they're going the wrong way

Slipspace wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Chaos IMO should have these books :

-Slaves to Darkness ("Black legion" + Belakor)
-Thousand Sons (TS + Tzeentch Demons)
-Death Guard (DG + Nurgle demons)
-World Eaters (WE + khorne demons)
-Emperor's children (EC + slaanesh demons)
-lost and damned (chaos guard)
-Dark mechanicus
-Chaos knights it

Good lord. Eight books, and pure daemons would still be lacking support.
Why not throw in Chaos Eldar while we're at it?

I agree. I think GW should be encouraging more creativity in how players approach armies and actively encouraging using the IG and AM books to create Chaos versions of those armies. You don't need super Chaosy rules to run Dark Mechanicum. Ad Mech are already pretty twisted and messed up anyway, and for the most part I don't think a Chaos Guard army would work much differently to a regular Guard army.

Unfortunately, GW insist on every last unit having a bespoke special rule and every kit having its own unit entry, so we now have specific Cadian and not-Krieg squads on top of regular Infantry Squads, for example. IMO, they're going the wrong way

True. There should also be a renegade detachment in the loyalist SM Codex for newly turned renegades. As well as Fallen in the DA supplement.
Edit: oh, and please, finally put all the Knights in one book, no matter if they have Spikes or not!

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Chaos IMO should have these books :

-Slaves to Darkness ("Black legion" + Belakor)
-Thousand Sons (TS + Tzeentch Demons)
-Death Guard (DG + Nurgle demons)
-World Eaters (WE + khorne demons)
-Emperor's children (EC + slaanesh demons)
-lost and damned (chaos guard)
-Dark mechanicus
-Chaos knights it

Good lord. Eight books, and pure daemons would still be lacking support.
Why not throw in Chaos Eldar while we're at it?

Thats 2 more books that what we'll inevitably end up with.... (Actually, its only one more book, since my proposal would mean no more Demon codex)
And each of those armies have more difference between each of them than any Space marines chapters (including the non codex compliant ones)

And "Pure demon" arguably shouldn't be a thing anyway. A Chaos Codex spread that looks like the AoS ones would be sooo much better IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:

I agree. I think GW should be encouraging more creativity in how players approach armies and actively encouraging using the IG and AM books to create Chaos versions of those armies. You don't need super Chaosy rules to run Dark Mechanicum. Ad Mech are already pretty twisted and messed up anyway, and for the most part I don't think a Chaos Guard army would work much differently to a regular Guard army.

Unfortunately, GW insist on every last unit having a bespoke special rule and every kit having its own unit entry, so we now have specific Cadian and not-Krieg squads on top of regular Infantry Squads, for example. IMO, they're going the wrong way

True, ideally, i'd rather GW make their codexes like OPR does. But we're already on the "everything gets a book" slope with the existence of 3/4 god legions

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
And "Pure demon" arguably shouldn't be a thing anyway. A Chaos Codex spread that looks like the AoS ones would be sooo much better IMO.

Why no pure Daemons?

Also you can take pure daemons in the AoS books just fine...

Much as I crave a single “drop it on a child, and forever stain your soul” volume containing all the wonderful Chaotic things?

I don’t mind puritan Codexes.

I simply ask that Chaos not be as tied to strict ally rules as anyone else. Because in the background? An invading or uprising Chaos force can and rightfully will involve any given element of the full platter of pleasure,

Whilst I’d prefer no such limits? I do accept that such a smorgasbord could be abused, and in that abuse of intent would taint every other player, regardless of what force they chose to field.

But a selection of say, WD published Detachments, digitally archived somewhere, is a nice work around,

And GW still get their pound of flesh because it still involves us having to buy multiple books to field the army of our corrupted dreams.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also you can take pure daemons in the AoS books just fine...

I think they mean pure mixed daemons. Which they took away from me in AoS

40k has intances of pure mixed daemon armies in the lore though.

In fact Belakor cannot even have pure monogod Daemon armies.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also you can take pure daemons in the AoS books just fine...

pretty sure they meant "pure demon" as it currently stands, aka : all 4 gods held together by belakor


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
40k has intances of pure mixed daemon armies in the lore though.

In fact Belakor cannot even have pure monogod Daemon armies.

Thats the current "problem" with demon

a lot of players want them to fit better (ie: have synergy) with the god legions
a lot of players also want them to be all mixable and work as a standalone army

I'd honestly be fine with GW doing anything to make demon something else than monster mash

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


I'd honestly be fine with GW doing anything to make demon something else than monster mash

Step 1: give daemons 10% of the attention Marines get, instead of 1%

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


I'd honestly be fine with GW doing anything to make demon something else than monster mash

Step 1: give daemons 10% of the attention Marines get, instead of 1%

i think we really just need a few more heroes really




/s

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


I'd honestly be fine with GW doing anything to make demon something else than monster mash

Step 1: give daemons 10% of the attention Marines get, instead of 1%

i think we really just need a few more heroes really

/s

The monkey's paw curls a finger...
GW: COMING SOON: Discordantis Lieutenants! Pre-order now!

My favourite implementation of Demons remains the Epic:A rules for them. (Started GW, finished by fans.) Demons are disposable things summoned before going into battle to soak casualties so the marines don't die...

Daemons need to be a purposefully designed faction which isn't just mostly redundant choices copy-pasted from Fantasy.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Daemons need to be a purposefully designed faction which isn't just mostly redundant choices copy-pasted from Fantasy.

Shh, you will get the daemon rules that just dropped for the heresy!

(The list has received a lot of flak for being poorly done and I agree, but the theme is much cooler. First edition HH list was way better and a good example of how to do daemons right).

This is something Grotsnik started a thread about ages ago.

I think the best example of why Daemons don't work as mono-god armies can be best summed up by Total War Warhammer 3.

In that game you have 5 Daemon factions:

1. Daemon Prince (essentially Undivided)
2. Khorne
3. Nurgle
4. Tzeentch
5. Slaanesh

Sounds obvious, right? Well, they've had to stretch out the mono-god rosters to breaking points (like butter that has been scraped over too much bread, to quote a certain short person), inventing 'Exalted' units and turning unit characters into Heroes and Heroes into Lords, and they still have to bulk them up with mortal units to make them work.

The Undivided faction has the mortal units, true, but it doesn't have the same problems because it has access to all 4 god-specific rosters.

Daemons just don't have the depth to function on their own. I wish they did - and I'd love to see a real expansion of Chaos Daemons to give each Chaos God 3-4 new units - but right now if playing mono-god feels hollow, then it's due to the paucity of choice.

Either that or put this Chaos Daemons malarkey that we've been suffering from since 4th Ed to bed and just put them back into the damned CSM Codex!

Daemons have certainly suffered in terms of little being added since Realms of Chaos.

In the beginning? Each God got a Greater Daemon, Lesser Daemon and Beast unit. Slaanesh also got Daemonic Cavalry, as did Khorne. Tzeentch got Flamers.

Since then? Very, very little has been added. Indeed in certain editions, some units (Fiends of Slaanesh in particular) were actually removed.

Taken together, you’ve probably just about enough variety for armies to have, erm, variety. But mono-god is gonna be a sad, sterile affair. Not just monotonous to look at, but tactically predictable.

Now all the time they were part and parcel of Chaos Marines? Not such a worry. But ever since being parted out to their own thing? Super anaemic.

That ain’t right, that ain’t fair. Daemons need new units. No. Not new characters. New. Units.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Since then? Very, very little has been added. Indeed in certain editions, some units (Fiends of Slaanesh in particular) were actually removed.

Umm...

But yeah, back when I started it was:

1. Bloodthirster/Bloodletter/Flesh Hound/Juggernaut.
2. Keeper of Secrets/Daemonette/Fiend/Steed of Slaanesh.
3. Lord of Change/Pink Horror/Blue Horror/Flamers/Discs of Tzeentch.
4. Great Unclean One/Plague Bearers/Beasts of Nurgle/Nurglings.

And that was it! Since then, outside of a few character (and the concept of 'Heralds') they've added Screamers, Rot Flies, Brimstone Horrors and... umm... I think that's it. Oh, and Chariots I suppose, but even those mostly just use existing things (Screamers, Slaaneshi Steeds, etc.).

If each Chaos God could get another Infantry Unit, Elite Unit, Fast Unit and Big Thing, I think it'd be a great start.

Oh Fiends certainly returned, but for a period, they were left out of the Codex, as were Seekers for a while, now I think about it. It was when the Juan Diaz Daemonettes were originally available.

He did do Seekers in due course, but there was a couple of years at least from memory. Indeed, I think* the Seekers were released not at all long before the plastic kit came out?

Khorne Cannon thing as well was added.

But between us I think we’ve covered them all. And that there’s so few is kinda depressing!

*major salt needed. Recent posts have confirmed my memory is a bit crap when it comes to timescales.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Since then? Very, very little has been added. Indeed in certain editions, some units (Fiends of Slaanesh in particular) were actually removed.

Umm...

But yeah, back when I started it was:

1. Bloodthirster/Bloodletter/Flesh Hound/Juggernaut.
2. Keeper of Secrets/Daemonette/Fiend/Steed of Slaanesh.
3. Lord of Change/Pink Horror/Blue Horror/Flamers/Discs of Tzeentch.
4. Great Unclean One/Plague Bearers/Beasts of Nurgle/Nurglings.

And that was it! Since then, outside of a few character (and the concept of 'Heralds') they've added Screamers, Rot Flies, Brimstone Horrors and... umm... I think that's it. Oh, and Chariots I suppose, but even those mostly just use existing things (Screamers, Slaaneshi Steeds, etc.).

If each Chaos God could get another Infantry Unit, Elite Unit, Fast Unit and Big Thing, I think it'd be a great start.

agreed, the main problem with demon is that GW pretty much only ever releases characters instead of units, so we get an anemic range. Its so strange too, considering how much liberty there should be when designing new demon units, AND how new sculpts means you can double dip in two games.

I think the thing with Daemons is analysis paralysis from the GW designers.

They don't have any idea how the army functions in the lore, not *really*. So they don't know how to expand it.

HH did Daemons great in 1e, and even their toned down 2e list is embarrassingly better than the 40k daemons book at actually reflecting Daemons.

1e HH though will forever be my favorite daemon rules in terms of connecting to the lore and having unit variety.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh Fiends certainly returned, but for a period, they were left out of the Codex, as were Seekers for a while, now I think about it. It was when the Juan Diaz Daemonettes were originally available.

He did do Seekers in due course, but there was a couple of years at least from memory. Indeed, I think* the Seekers were released not at all long before the plastic kit came out?

Khorne Cannon thing as well was added.

But between us I think we’ve covered them all. And that there’s so few is kinda depressing!

*major salt needed. Recent posts have confirmed my memory is a bit crap when it comes to timescales.

They even threw Furies into legends despite having produced a plastic kit for them (for a different game but with daemons who cares, really?)
It would be easy to combine a Daemons Codex with a small roster of Mortals to summon them (they produced a nice "Dark Commune" after all) as well as a generic Marine unit, sorceror/ Master of Possession/Dark Apostle and Possessed. So you'd at least had easy access to a small Chaos circle.

You know what’s even more frustrating about 40K Chaos?

AoS Chaos is getting so much love.

Oodles of different cults, tribes and Warbands. Unique and interesting gribbly monsters. Random beasties.

13 separate tribes via WarCry, all available in Slaves to Darkness. Each with a distinct and distinctive look.

Such variety! Such visual feast! Such….Chaos!

Integrated Daemons in God Specific Forces!

And, whilst it’s been a hot minute since I read the rules, pretty straight forward allying rules if memory serves.

That's because AoS has the freedom from being the flagship product that has to sell eighteen varieties of Space Marine.

I’d like to see more stuff along the lines of Obliterators. Semi-common mutations/corruptions, enough that they can be fielded by a Champion as assets.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You know what’s even more frustrating about 40K Chaos?

AoS Chaos is getting so much love.

Oodles of different cults, tribes and Warbands. Unique and interesting gribbly monsters. Random beasties.

13 separate tribes via WarCry, all available in Slaves to Darkness. Each with a distinct and distinctive look.

Such variety! Such visual feast! Such….Chaos!

Integrated Daemons in God Specific Forces!

And, whilst it’s been a hot minute since I read the rules, pretty straight forward allying rules if memory serves.

Well, they did include some daemon units in the DG and TS books in 8th edition, but they did so in a very silly way (basically only to fill pages because you could summon them).
It is beyond me why GW is that strict on separating Codizes and preventing overlapping datasheets (and then they also don’t, see Rhinos and Defilers). You could reprint all Nurgle Daemons in the DG book, but GW doesn't want to because of some strange view at faction identity (that at the same time gets thrown out the window because of nmnr and kit restrictions).

Do folks generally feel that piling God Specific Daemons into God Specific Legions would yield interesting forces?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Do folks generally feel that piling God Specific Daemons into God Specific Legions would yield interesting forces?

I think the Daemons side wins more from it than the Marine side, but since GW likes to reduce the roster of the Cult legions and throw out random units it's at least a small compensation
Whenever this topic gets brought up it's hard for me to grasp what would be the best solution that is compatible with GWs Codex model. For me personally, it would be a giant tome of Nurgle with everything from Traitor guard over Daemons, Death Guard, The Purge , Nurgle Beastmen up to Nurgle Knights.
However, writing such a book 5 times would look pretty silly, as it would be 5 times a book the size of the bloated SM Codex and every one of these would have about 80% of the same basic data sheets with the undivided book having to include everything all the others combined have minus the god-specific named heroes probably.
For it to work GW would have to use a totally different approach with a working digital Codex or something like OPRs army forge. Even current battlescribe is pretty smooth as you can easily include legends, Forgeworld and allied daemons in your Death Guard roster.

I mean firstly it would give Daemons a chance to actually get releases because instead of one army getting a release, it would be 4.

Daemons have eaten well with new kits not because of 40k but because of AoS.
New Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh Daemons all came with AoS army books rather than 40k ones.
The last time 40k Daemons got a specific release tied to a Codex was when Daemonkin came out in 7th with the updated Bloodthirster and Skarbrand.
Be'lakor was an AoS release for the Broken Realms storyline and the updated Daemonprice likewise was a dual kit for CSM and Slaves to Darkness.
Vashtorr is the only Daemon release for 40k and that's because it is specifically tied to 40k, similar to how Synessa/Dexcessa are AoS only.

40k should be the same as AoS with the CSM book, God books, and Knights with a 25% rule for including God-aligned units for the non-marked armies. Keeping the Dreadblade rule is simple enough and allows for a Knight to be included in any Chaos list as well.
For individual cases such as Abaddon or Be'lakor who command the allegiance of all forms of Chaos, give them a special rule that allows them to be taken in any Chaos army.

 Gert wrote:
I mean firstly it would give Daemons a chance to actually get releases because instead of one army getting a release, it would be 4.

Daemons have eaten well with new kits not because of 40k but because of AoS.
New Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh Daemons all came with AoS army books rather than 40k ones.
The last time 40k Daemons got a specific release tied to a Codex was when Daemonkin came out in 7th with the updated Bloodthirster and Skarbrand.
Be'lakor was an AoS release for the Broken Realms storyline and the updated Daemonprice likewise was a dual kit for CSM and Slaves to Darkness.
Vashtorr is the only Daemon release for 40k and that's because it is specifically tied to 40k, similar to how Synessa/Dexcessa are AoS only.

Even Bloodthirster and Skarbrand were WHFB releases, alongside the Wrathmongers, Skullreapers, and Skarr Bloodwrath.

That is a good point.

Given how Daemons have been used in both games for as far back as most of us can remember, I still think it's surprising that Synessa and Dexcessa are AoS only.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This is something Grotsnik started a thread about ages ago.

I think the best example of why Daemons don't work as mono-god armies can be best summed up by Total War Warhammer 3.

In that game you have 5 Daemon factions:

1. Daemon Prince (essentially Undivided)
2. Khorne
3. Nurgle
4. Tzeentch
5. Slaanesh

Sounds obvious, right? Well, they've had to stretch out the mono-god rosters to breaking points (like butter that has been scraped over too much bread, to quote a certain short person), inventing 'Exalted' units and turning unit characters into Heroes and Heroes into Lords, and they still have to bulk them up with mortal units to make them work.

The Undivided faction has the mortal units, true, but it doesn't have the same problems because it has access to all 4 god-specific rosters.

Daemons just don't have the depth to function on their own. I wish they did - and I'd love to see a real expansion of Chaos Daemons to give each Chaos God 3-4 new units - but right now if playing mono-god feels hollow, then it's due to the paucity of choice.

Either that or put this Chaos Daemons malarkey that we've been suffering from since 4th Ed to bed and just put them back into the damned CSM Codex!

I think part of the trouble is that, for WHFB this isn't and issue and this is what informed mono rosters to begin with. Got a Khorne army? Well your typical WHFB army is only going to have five blocks of units on average so that's... two or three units of infantry, two units of cavalry, some skirmisher/chaff hounds, and some big models here and there. Done. 40k or as you mentioned total war? You're looking at more than ten units at minimum. Suddenly the roster doesn't stretch well.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Do folks generally feel that piling God Specific Daemons into God Specific Legions would yield interesting forces?

No, I want to play Daemons, not Whiny Spiky Marines with some disposable Daemon chaff and maybe a big monster on the side.

Anyone who wants to force Daemons to be only playable with Chaos Marines can eat an entire bag of diarrhea tbh.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Do folks generally feel that piling God Specific Daemons into God Specific Legions would yield interesting forces?

I wouldn't mind the option to freely mix the two if I felt like it. But I definitely don't want the only way to play either one to be as a mixed force.

ccs wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Do folks generally feel that piling God Specific Daemons into God Specific Legions would yield interesting forces?

I wouldn't mind the option to freely mix the two if I felt like it. But I definitely don't want the only way to play either one to be as a mixed force.

This. When I started collecting 40K and decided on Death Guard I was pretty surprised to find out that I couldn't use the beasts of Nurgle and Plague Bearers I bought along my Marines in the same army, as 5th Edition didn't have ally rules.
These were added in 6th and for a very short time Death Guard + Epidemius even was a tournament list IIRC, because Epidemius buffed Marines and Daemons. Since then there were ups and downs, in 7th you could ally, but because of formations it wasn't that useful, in 8th you had soup, needing different detachments but nurgle obliterators standing around nurgle trees was pretty effective. However, the actual daemon datasheets within the CSM and DG Codizes were just Page fillers. 9th was again close to 7th, you could do soup, but somehow putting plague Bearers along your Death Guard made your sickness worse. 10th ruling is somewhere in between, you don't get punished for allying the correct daemons(or only one side of the allies gets punished), but there's little reason to do so.

i'd love for demons to not just "exist" with the god legions. I want real synergies in there.

Have Tzeentch demons generate cabal points or be able to project them
Have nurgle demons get contagions

RIght now, the only synergy with soup is getting the cheapest action monkeys or lone ops

Void__Dragon wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Do folks generally feel that piling God Specific Daemons into God Specific Legions would yield interesting forces?

No, I want to play Daemons, not Whiny Spiky Marines with some disposable Daemon chaff and maybe a big monster on the side.

Anyone who wants to force Daemons to be only playable with Chaos Marines can eat an entire bag of diarrhea tbh.

This, Daemons existed before Marines so they should work without them just fine.

If anything CSM should be propped up by Cultists & Daemons. They should be weaker without them(to symbolize 10k years of self serving)

Well, I wasn’t exactly meaning that.

Whilst as ever I’d love to see a single, massive, Codex Chaos? If we must have separate books, I’m not adverse to Daemons being their own thing.

But for God Aligned Legions, I feel they should have access to their God’s Daemons.

Chaos should be more like the older Fantasy version.
Warriors/Demons/Beasts and they all are compatible. The Leader determines the core/special/rare limitations.

Chaos lord? Your battleline are Marines.
Demon Prince/Greater Demon? Your battleline are Demons.
Some Cultist Dude? Your batteline are Cultists.
Traitor Commander? Your battleline are traitors.
Something like that.

Racerguy180 wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Do folks generally feel that piling God Specific Daemons into God Specific Legions would yield interesting forces?

No, I want to play Daemons, not Whiny Spiky Marines with some disposable Daemon chaff and maybe a big monster on the side.

Anyone who wants to force Daemons to be only playable with Chaos Marines can eat an entire bag of diarrhea tbh.

This, Daemons existed before Marines so they should work without them just fine.

If anything CSM should be propped up by Cultists & Daemons. They should be weaker without them(to symbolize 10k years of self serving)

On the former? Right on.

On the latter? no.

Despite my vitriolic take on CSM I don't want them to be reliant on Daemons to be playable either. And they have such a wide and deep codex that to achieve that GW would have to artificially lower the useability of their units to do so which would suck.