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How do!

Why no, this dead horse hasn’t been flogged enough, thank you for asking.

And no. I’m not a Chaos player.

Yes. I did field Iron Warriors in the Glory Days of 3.5

No I’m not championing Chaos wanting to dust off that army, because I sold it….20 years ago. Quite possibly to the day. But that’s another story.

Rather I’m a background junkie that wants to see Chaos represented on the board as it’s been portrayed in the background. And y’know, Not Be The Red Headed Stepchild of 40K.

Now I’ve advocated in the past for Chaos to be a single, massive Codex. All its aspests forced and squished into one volume. The sort which would prove a genuine health hazard if left teetering on the edge of a table as an infant takes its first, faltering crawl beneath. But I do recognise not all can be trusted with such a cornucopia of crazy, and the resulting math hammered lists would not only be tedious for others to fight? But entirely defy why I want it all in a single glorious tome.

And this thread isn’t adjusting that. Well not really. I may wibble on long enough that it does come back around.

But I want to talk Legions. The Cult Legions. Those are irritating me greatly.

See, they’re almost too pure. They don’t seem to allow for relatively recently joined acolyte, journeyman, or aspirant units. Think Chaos Space Marines, recently created, who perhaps haven’t earned The Butcher’s Nails yet, or whichever disease marks a Deathguard out from A Particularly Smelly Chaos Marine etc.

Every Legion needs fresh blood. Or pus. Or dust. Or let’s just not think about Emperor’s Children too much.

And those are the units they currently need to ally in. Which is BS.

Look to the Loyalists. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Woofs etc all have their Chapter specific Extra Special Guys. And whilst those commonly replace other units? They don’t tend to lose access to Stock Space Marine Units. All the bells and whistles, and still comfortably housed in the wider church.

Why not the Legions? They’re particularly specialised mentalists being those of long standing. The super turbo nutters who may very well have been getting nuttier and turboier for 10,000 years. But as much as there’ll be ways of war they entirely shun, there are plenty left there are worst ambivalent about. So why excise everything that’s not Super Turbo Nutter? It don’t make no sense. At all.

What’s sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander after all.

C’mon GW. Play fair. Stop giving Chaos the crappy end of the stick. End the era of Flavoured Chaos being restricted to fewer units than Loyalist have characters.

And whilst you’re at it? Lost and The Damned, in the next 24 months, or I’ll come poop through your letterbox.

I did field Iron Warriors in the Glory Days of 3.5

I sold it….20 years ago. Quite possibly to the day.

If you called it the 2003 codex, then it’d be more obvious you mean you built, played, and sold the army in the space of around six months. It’s good and healthy to say the year, as if you were talking about something that happened in the real world.


I liked codex: Eye of Terror, and the redemptionist unit one of my friends got from I think Citadel Journal, and the properly good army my friend’s Thousand Sons became when white dwarf gave them teleporting sorcerors with a power called The Key.

The lesson is the same as always: only trust your fists, the police will never help you.

You should play Heresy instead. The Traitor Legions are allowed to be cool there.

Part of the issue for the Cult troops is simply that (canonically) those Legions aren't growing, they aren't recruiting, and indeed they are just the hard core original marines with 10k years of accumulated XP.

I could probably dig out Codex: Eye of Terror from the closet if I had to, and I agree - it was a neat little add-on. Some cultists, some traitor guard, a few gibbering mutants - it lets you add models and flavor, as well as some interesting modeling opportunities, but without trying to duplicate the novices that, say, Black Templar used to be able to field in numbers.

I do miss having Daemons in the CSM codex, instead of having to ally them in. Can't really do a 50/50 mix of CSM & Daemons under the current rules.

 Janthkin wrote:
Part of the issue for the Cult troops is simply that (canonically) those Legions aren't growing, they aren't recruiting, and indeed they are just the hard core original marines with 10k years of accumulated XP.

I don;'t have codex 1k sons or world eaters but insofar as the death guard are concerned this is explictly NOT the case per their most recent codex

It does indeed feel daft. The only reason I'm considering building a KHAOS army (Credo!) now is the fact the index finally allows to cram in Traitor guard, cultists, mutants and Beastmen to the army.

Then again, this combo will undoubtedly be invalidated as soon as Codex CSM releases, so not going to bother

But I see what you mean - there shouldn't be any reason why you couldn't add generic Black Legionnaires to any CSM subfaction. I'm not buying this "lore" about these dudes being 10,000 years old veterans, their statlines dont reflect such powers in the slightest

BrianDavion wrote:
I don;'t have codex 1k sons or world eaters but insofar as the death guard are concerned this is explictly NOT the case per their most recent codex

And didn't the recent Arks of Omen books point out that the World Eaters are far from the "shattered scattered warbands" that people have been painting them as for years now?

I'm not as old as some on this forum but for as long as I can remember, the Legions never stopped recruiting, it just changed drastically and became more amalgamation of Warbands and individuals than fief worlds.

There have been novels and short stories featuring Astartes who have joined a Legion Warband long after the Heresy and IIRC there was a portion of a Chapter that joined the Death Guard during the Abyssal Crusade.

I think I’d feel better overall if the Cult Legions had a greater variety of Stuff.

Deathguard, despite the repetitive models, are almost there. Daemon Engines, Infantry, Heavy Infantry, all unique to their Legion.

But World Eaters and Thousand Sons feel anaemic in that regard. Like someone was carrying all the moulds originally made, and dropped half of them into Mount Doom or something.

They just don’t feel Special Enough.

 Janthkin wrote:
Part of the issue for the Cult troops is simply that (canonically) those Legions aren't growing, they aren't recruiting, and indeed they are just the hard core original marines with 10k years of accumulated XP.

Plenty of the legions have continued to recruit new marines, either converts or literally growing more marines (Sup Honsou!), so their numbers are always in flux but will effectively never go to 0 I feel, since their methods are not hindred by strict Ad Mech control and quite often even the failures are chained up and thrown at the enemy like Spawn

I've never figured out why the various legions don't pillage after the battle is over (assuming that they hold the field). I mean why are they not allowed to have cyclone missile launchers and/or assault cannons? Are they afraid that the devices will explode upon coming in contact with them? Don't they have their own techs who could duplicate those weapons? Let alone inviting some of the Loyalists over to their side of the spectrum and heaven forbid if they bring their shiny new toys with them.

It just doesn't make sense that CSM have a smaller choice of weapons than Loyalists. If anything, they should have more choices due to not only recovering weapons on the battlefield or gaining them through seducing new recruits they also don't have any limitation on what techs can try to produce using the same weapon with a chaos twist.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

It just doesn't make sense that CSM have a smaller choice of weapons than Loyalists. If anything, they should have more choices due to not only recovering weapons on the battlefield or gaining them through seducing new recruits they also don't have any limitation on what techs can try to produce using the same weapon with a chaos twist.

Chaos can't be better than the poster-boys!

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I've never figured out why the various legions don't pillage after the battle is over (assuming that they hold the field). I mean why are they not allowed to have cyclone missile launchers and/or assault cannons? Are they afraid that the devices will explode upon coming in contact with them? Don't they have their own techs who could duplicate those weapons? Let alone inviting some of the Loyalists over to their side of the spectrum and heaven forbid if they bring their shiny new toys with them.

It just doesn't make sense that CSM have a smaller choice of weapons than Loyalists. If anything, they should have more choices due to not only recovering weapons on the battlefield or gaining them through seducing new recruits they also don't have any limitation on what techs can try to produce using the same weapon with a chaos twist.

I think its because these use ammo CSM/Darkmech don't have easy access to. Don't quote me on that tho.


CSM should be the ones still using weird 30k weaponry like C-beams and Volkite. I'm super salty that loyalists are starting to get volkite again

CSM just needed to get weapons made by the Dark Mech and that has been done one whole time with the Chaincannon which is just a smaller version of the one on the Forgefiend.
The Daemon Engines were actually a move in the right direction where we had weapons that were CSM weapons and not just older versions of current Loyalist gear.

 Gert wrote:
CSM just needed to get weapons made by the Dark Mech and that has been done one whole time with the Chaincannon which is just a smaller version of the one on the Forgefiend.
The Daemon Engines were actually a move in the right direction where we had weapons that were CSM weapons and not just older versions of current Loyalist gear.

i'd say only the FW Daemon engines have really unique feeling weapons, most of the GW ones have Imperium weapons but with an evil name.

 Gert wrote:
CSM just needed to get weapons made by the Dark Mech and that has been done one whole time with the Chaincannon which is just a smaller version of the one on the Forgefiend.
The Daemon Engines were actually a move in the right direction where we had weapons that were CSM weapons and not just older versions of current Loyalist gear.

? the chain cannon is a rotor cannon from the heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!


C’mon GW. Play fair. Stop giving Chaos the crappy end of the stick. End the era of Flavoured Chaos being restricted to fewer units than Loyalist have characters.

And whilst you’re at it? Lost and The Damned, in the next 24 months, or I’ll come poop through your letterbox.

Fine.

Whilest i appreciate the enthusiasm, please let's not devolve back to fecal slining ancestry of ours.

We got technology now.

however, considering how condensed down the game has become... i doubt you could make anything worthwhile.

From what I understand about cult lore, it is impossible to create new 1ksons sons, and in the case of WE and DG the legions structure are broken up, so most of the time they aren't even able to recreate a space marine. They either order them from people like Bile or have something more kin to the inducti programs of Horus Heresy, but without the resources, knowladge and the cadre who are professional enough , and not too far gone, to perform the procedures. On top of that the EC and WE didn't function as an organisation since the legion war. Which is a long time.
Then there is a cult thing. Khorn doesn't make different types of followers, netiher does nurgle. They just do the same, but more. More plague marine then a regular plague marine, a bigger berzerker etc And while Nurgle does leave some freedom in how his followers can function, Khorn is all about being a mono maniac. Tzeench would be the prime source of |"different" type of mariens, but he happens to be locked in to Chaos Undead The Faction.

EC when GW makes them could be the most different. Right of the gate they have a split between the "normal" cult EC and noise marines. And each could, doesn't mean they will, have its own "troop/elite/FA/Heavy/" etc.

Karol wrote:
From what I understand about cult lore, it is impossible to create new 1ksons sons, and in the case of WE and DG the legions structure are broken up, so most of the time they aren't even able to recreate a space marine. They either order them from people like Bile or have something more kin to the inducti programs of Horus Heresy, but without the resources, knowladge and the cadre who are professional enough , and not too far gone, to perform the procedures. On top of that the EC and WE didn't function as an organisation since the legion war. Which is a long time.
Then there is a cult thing. Khorn doesn't make different types of followers, netiher does nurgle. They just do the same, but more. More plague marine then a regular plague marine, a bigger berzerker etc And while Nurgle does leave some freedom in how his followers can function, Khorn is all about being a mono maniac. Tzeench would be the prime source of |"different" type of mariens, but he happens to be locked in to Chaos Undead The Faction.

EC when GW makes them could be the most different. Right of the gate they have a split between the "normal" cult EC and noise marines. And each could, doesn't mean they will, have its own "troop/elite/FA/Heavy/" etc.

New Thousand Sons are possible, new Rubrics isnt.

Thousand Sons still boster their ranks with new sorcerers as those are "perishables"

How does one make a new 1ksons when 90+% of them are dust and the rest is chaos spawn level material or dust too ? And this is not some "you are wrong thing", I am actualy curious how they do it. I don't read much w40k books, and most I did, were old.

Karol wrote:
How does one make a new 1ksons when 90+% of them are dust and the rest is chaos spawn level material or dust too ? And this is not some "you are wrong thing", I am actualy curious how they do it. I don't read much w40k books, and most I did, were old.

"Oh hey, you've got some psychic capabilities, wanna join us?"

The only dusty ones are the rubrics and scarabs. Squad leaders, Sorcerers and Helbrutes are all un-dusted. They have mutations, sure, but theyre not dust. Take a look at the exalted sorcerer kit, plenty of fleshy bits in there.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!


And whilst you’re at it? Lost and The Damned, in the next 24 months, or I’ll come poop through your letterbox.

Wow, you're really dead angry about this one Doc. Hope for GW to not let this charitable warning be ignored or Doc's wrath will fall upon them.

For this reply not to be purely out of context and slowed, I'd say I agree. Chaos has got so many flavours of it: newer traitor marines, each legions, lost and the damned, demons, traitor guards, rare chaos orks, beastmen (yes they are a thing and their is no debating this ), dark mechanicum, piratic warband, nurgle zombies... even maybe DoW3's army of spectres (I actually am intend on making such an army based on a 7th khorne deamonkin or whatever its called).

Really, there's just as much variety in chaos forces if not more as there is in imperial forces. GW runs on so few characterful stuff for them while there could be so many... They'd need to release books for those.

At least maybe a CSM codex as in 3.5 with full legion traits and the ability to build a non legion warband, a book for demons, a book for "auxiliares" or "non astartes" with army lists for lost and the damned, traitor militia à la vraks and tyrant's legion, beastmen... Plus maybe a fourth for dark mechanicum if you didn't include them in a CM codex. With a system of alliances between them all.

Thing is, as a player with a disproportiate love for scenario and narrative play, I don't mind GW releasing army leasts rather than full codices if necessary. I'm not bothered if the beastmen army list hasn't got, say, elite troops choices, because as long as it is relatively playable, well, it'll just be the army's DNA and a lot of character. This way they could greatly expand the range of possible units for your chaos.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


"Oh hey, you've got some psychic capabilities, wanna join us?"

The only dusty ones are the rubrics and scarabs. Squad leaders, Sorcerers and Helbrutes are all un-dusted. They have mutations, sure, but theyre not dust. Take a look at the exalted sorcerer kit, plenty of fleshy bits in there.

Hmm interesting about the dreadnoughts I thought they would either end up like regular dust dudes or get the sorcerors treatment.

I do think the Detachment system could be the salvation (heh!) of Chaos overall.

Imagine extra-codicil Detachments. Proscribing the units it allows, with any not mentioned not being allow (I think proscribe is the right term, if not remember I never claimed not to be an idiot), and from there Taking Whatever You Bloody Well Please.

Whilst ideally it wouldn’t mean having to own one of every single Naughty Codex, we sadly have to live in the now and accept that….that’s exactly the price Chaos Players would have to literally pay. I’m…kind of ambivalent about that. Maybe accepting, arguably stoic. Capitalism gonna Capitalism type fatalism.

But give Chaos extra-codicil rules for mixing and matching between the more rigid forces.

While we are negging CSM, I cannot understand why TS sorcerers can only use dust as their building blocks for new troops. It would seem like a nobrainer to expand sorcery to master other substances..

 tauist wrote:
While we are negging CSM, I cannot understand why TS sorcerers can only use dust as their building blocks for new troops. It would seem like a nobrainer to expand sorcery to master other substances..

When the TS are more stagnant than the average nurgle worshipper

 tauist wrote:
While we are negging CSM, I cannot understand why TS sorcerers can only use dust as their building blocks for new troops. It would seem like a nobrainer to expand sorcery to master other substances..

Cos it's magic dust you philistine. Also, casting the Rubric was very very very forbidden after Ahriman and his mates did it the first time.
Ergo Cultists and Goat-Birds became the newest recruits, alongside various renegade wizards of course.

Karol wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


"Oh hey, you've got some psychic capabilities, wanna join us?"

The only dusty ones are the rubrics and scarabs. Squad leaders, Sorcerers and Helbrutes are all un-dusted. They have mutations, sure, but theyre not dust. Take a look at the exalted sorcerer kit, plenty of fleshy bits in there.

Hmm interesting about the dreadnoughts I thought they would either end up like regular dust dudes or get the sorcerors treatment.

They actually trick Marines from other legions into becoming helbrutes. They promise them knowledge and power then just stick them into a sarcophagus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tauist wrote:
While we are negging CSM, I cannot understand why TS sorcerers can only use dust as their building blocks for new troops. It would seem like a nobrainer to expand sorcery to master other substances..

The "new" TS members are the sorcerers you'll field in-game. And i'm pretty sure they don't control the shape of the dust and that it just remakes itself into the same rubrics/scarabs everytime.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

They actually trick Marines from other legions into becoming helbrutes. They promise them knowledge and power then just stick them into a sarcophagus.

"Yes brother, all the knowledge you desire is in this tiny unlit room, just step in. Excellent, now you'll know all the secre... SIKE!" *slams sarcophagus door shut*

Explains why hellbrutes are so angry I guess.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think I’d feel better overall if the Cult Legions had a greater variety of Stuff.

Once upon a time we did. Plague Marine didn't just mean a unit of 5, 7 or 10 guys with non-repeating weapon options. It meant anyone from Plague Marine Terminators to Plague Marine Havocs. I kept my Death Guard army with the Sacred Numbers, so 4x7 Plague Marine Squads, and 3x7 Plague Havoc Squads (for 7 squads in total). Then a few 14-man Plague Bearer squads (man, Daemons in squads other than 10... what a wild time... ), and a 7-man Plague Terminator Squads (100% illegal models these days, BTW, thanks to, of all things, the Death Guard getting their own codex).

Now I like how they have a lot of Nurgle-specific Daemon Engines, but I don't think that should come at the cost of standard Chaos units. Plague Possessed, Plague Havocs, Plague Raptors/Bikers (if you consider those fluffy). We can have a Forge Fiend with a MoN in the Chaos list, but no Death Guard version.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But World Eaters and Thousand Sons feel anaemic in that regard. Like someone was carrying all the moulds originally made, and dropped half of them into Mount Doom or something.

Thousand Sons were the last proper Marine release before mono-pose optionless crap took over GW's design ethos. As it happens, Death Guard were the first Chaos release in the current era. Aside from that Thousand Sons got their expansion when GW just decided to be lazy and dump all the AoS Tzaangor stuff on them. I like having the AoS Tzaangor stuff - I'd rather have it than not have it - but it has come at the expense of actual Thousand Sons models.

As for WE... well they're trainwreck from start to finish. Completely gutted from a modelling and option perspective, and Flanderised to the point where Space Wolves looked nuanced (oh look, we have Berzerkers, Berzerker Berzerkers, or Berzerker Bezerker Berzerkers... all lead by a cavalry model who couldn't be more out of place if he tried! What abundant choice!). They're a half-Codex, and I'm hoping that like Sisters before them (and hopefully Votann), we're just waiting on the new book to get the other half.

shortymcnostrill wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

They actually trick Marines from other legions into becoming helbrutes. They promise them knowledge and power then just stick them into a sarcophagus.

"Yes brother, all the knowledge you desire is in this tiny unlit room, just step in. Excellent, now you'll know all the secre... SIKE!" *slams sarcophagus door shut*

Explains why hellbrutes are so angry I guess.

Unironically how they do it lol, and yeah, helbrutes "pilots" are in constant pain and kept awake during most of their "dormant" periods, theyre just unplugged from the killy part of the dread