I’m moaning about Chaos. Again.

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Much as I crave a single “drop it on a child, and forever stain your soul” volume containing all the wonderful Chaotic things?

I don’t mind puritan Codexes.

I simply ask that Chaos not be as tied to strict ally rules as anyone else. Because in the background? An invading or uprising Chaos force can and rightfully will involve any given element of the full platter of pleasure,

Whilst I’d prefer no such limits? I do accept that such a smorgasbord could be abused, and in that abuse of intent would taint every other player, regardless of what force they chose to field.

But a selection of say, WD published Detachments, digitally archived somewhere, is a nice work around,

And GW still get their pound of flesh because it still involves us having to buy multiple books to field the army of our corrupted dreams.

**Rihgu**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also you can take pure daemons in the AoS books just fine...

I think they mean pure mixed daemons. Which they took away from me in AoS

**Tyran**

40k has intances of pure mixed daemon armies in the lore though.

In fact Belakor cannot even have pure monogod Daemon armies.

**VladimirHerzog**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also you can take pure daemons in the AoS books just fine...

pretty sure they meant "pure demon" as it currently stands, aka : all 4 gods held together by belakor

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyran wrote:
40k has intances of pure mixed daemon armies in the lore though.

In fact Belakor cannot even have pure monogod Daemon armies.

Thats the current "problem" with demon

a lot of players want them to fit better (ie: have synergy) with the god legions
a lot of players also want them to be all mixable and work as a standalone army

I'd honestly be fine with GW doing anything to make demon something else than monster mash

**Unit1126PLL**

VladimirHerzog wrote:

I'd honestly be fine with GW doing anything to make demon something else than monster mash

Step 1: give daemons 10% of the attention Marines get, instead of 1%

**VladimirHerzog**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:

I'd honestly be fine with GW doing anything to make demon something else than monster mash

Step 1: give daemons 10% of the attention Marines get, instead of 1%

i think we really just need a few more heroes really

/s

**waefre_1**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:

I'd honestly be fine with GW doing anything to make demon something else than monster mash

Step 1: give daemons 10% of the attention Marines get, instead of 1%

i think we really just need a few more heroes really

/s

The monkey's paw curls a finger...
GW: COMING SOON: Discordantis Lieutenants! Pre-order now!

**The_Real_Chris**

My favourite implementation of Demons remains the Epic:A rules for them. (Started GW, finished by fans.) Demons are disposable things summoned before going into battle to soak casualties so the marines don't die...

**Lord Damocles**

Daemons need to be a purposefully designed faction which isn't just mostly redundant choices copy-pasted from Fantasy.

**Unit1126PLL**

Lord Damocles wrote:
Daemons need to be a purposefully designed faction which isn't just mostly redundant choices copy-pasted from Fantasy.

Shh, you will get the daemon rules that just dropped for the heresy!

(The list has received a lot of flak for being poorly done and I agree, but the theme is much cooler. First edition HH list was way better and a good example of how to do daemons right).

**H.B.M.C.**

This is something Grotsnik started a thread about ages ago.

I think the best example of why Daemons don't work as mono-god armies can be best summed up by Total War Warhammer 3.

In that game you have 5 Daemon factions:

1. Daemon Prince (essentially Undivided)
2. Khorne
3. Nurgle
4. Tzeentch
5. Slaanesh

Sounds obvious, right? Well, they've had to stretch out the mono-god rosters to breaking points (like butter that has been scraped over too much bread, to quote a certain short person), inventing 'Exalted' units and turning unit characters into Heroes and Heroes into Lords, and they still have to bulk them up with mortal units to make them work.

The Undivided faction has the mortal units, true, but it doesn't have the same problems because it has access to all 4 god-specific rosters.

Daemons just don't have the depth to function on their own. I wish they did - and I'd love to see a real expansion of Chaos Daemons to give each Chaos God 3-4 new units - but right now if playing mono-god feels hollow, then it's due to the paucity of choice.

Either that or put this Chaos Daemons malarkey that we've been suffering from since 4th Ed to bed and just put them back into the damned CSM Codex!

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Daemons have certainly suffered in terms of little being added since Realms of Chaos.

In the beginning? Each God got a Greater Daemon, Lesser Daemon and Beast unit. Slaanesh also got Daemonic Cavalry, as did Khorne. Tzeentch got Flamers.

Since then? Very, very little has been added. Indeed in certain editions, some units (Fiends of Slaanesh in particular) were actually removed.

Taken together, you’ve probably just about enough variety for armies to have, erm, variety. But mono-god is gonna be a sad, sterile affair. Not just monotonous to look at, but tactically predictable.

Now all the time they were part and parcel of Chaos Marines? Not such a worry. But ever since being parted out to their own thing? Super anaemic.

That ain’t right, that ain’t fair. Daemons need new units. No. Not new characters. New. Units.

**H.B.M.C.**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Since then? Very, very little has been added. Indeed in certain editions, some units (Fiends of Slaanesh in particular) were actually removed.

Umm...

But yeah, back when I started it was:

1. Bloodthirster/Bloodletter/Flesh Hound/Juggernaut.
2. Keeper of Secrets/Daemonette/Fiend/Steed of Slaanesh.
3. Lord of Change/Pink Horror/Blue Horror/Flamers/Discs of Tzeentch.
4. Great Unclean One/Plague Bearers/Beasts of Nurgle/Nurglings.

And that was it! Since then, outside of a few character (and the concept of 'Heralds') they've added Screamers, Rot Flies, Brimstone Horrors and... umm... I think that's it. Oh, and Chariots I suppose, but even those mostly just use existing things (Screamers, Slaaneshi Steeds, etc.).

If each Chaos God could get another Infantry Unit, Elite Unit, Fast Unit and Big Thing, I think it'd be a great start.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Oh Fiends certainly returned, but for a period, they were left out of the Codex, as were Seekers for a while, now I think about it. It was when the Juan Diaz Daemonettes were originally available.

He did do Seekers in due course, but there was a couple of years at least from memory. Indeed, I think* the Seekers were released not at all long before the plastic kit came out?

Khorne Cannon thing as well was added.

But between us I think we’ve covered them all. And that there’s so few is kinda depressing!

*major salt needed. Recent posts have confirmed my memory is a bit crap when it comes to timescales.

**VladimirHerzog**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Since then? Very, very little has been added. Indeed in certain editions, some units (Fiends of Slaanesh in particular) were actually removed.
Umm...

But yeah, back when I started it was:

1. Bloodthirster/Bloodletter/Flesh Hound/Juggernaut.
2. Keeper of Secrets/Daemonette/Fiend/Steed of Slaanesh.
3. Lord of Change/Pink Horror/Blue Horror/Flamers/Discs of Tzeentch.
4. Great Unclean One/Plague Bearers/Beasts of Nurgle/Nurglings.

And that was it! Since then, outside of a few character (and the concept of 'Heralds') they've added Screamers, Rot Flies, Brimstone Horrors and... umm... I think that's it. Oh, and Chariots I suppose, but even those mostly just use existing things (Screamers, Slaaneshi Steeds, etc.).

If each Chaos God could get another Infantry Unit, Elite Unit, Fast Unit and Big Thing, I think it'd be a great start.

agreed, the main problem with demon is that GW pretty much only ever releases characters instead of units, so we get an anemic range. Its so strange too, considering how much liberty there should be when designing new demon units, AND how new sculpts means you can double dip in two games.

**Unit1126PLL**

I think the thing with Daemons is analysis paralysis from the GW designers.

They don't have any idea how the army functions in the lore, not *really*. So they don't know how to expand it.

HH did Daemons great in 1e, and even their toned down 2e list is embarrassingly better than the 40k daemons book at actually reflecting Daemons.

1e HH though will forever be my favorite daemon rules in terms of connecting to the lore and having unit variety.

**Sgt. Cortez**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh Fiends certainly returned, but for a period, they were left out of the Codex, as were Seekers for a while, now I think about it. It was when the Juan Diaz Daemonettes were originally available.

He did do Seekers in due course, but there was a couple of years at least from memory. Indeed, I think* the Seekers were released not at all long before the plastic kit came out?

Khorne Cannon thing as well was added.

But between us I think we’ve covered them all. And that there’s so few is kinda depressing!

*major salt needed. Recent posts have confirmed my memory is a bit crap when it comes to timescales.

They even threw Furies into legends despite having produced a plastic kit for them (for a different game but with daemons who cares, really?)
It would be easy to combine a Daemons Codex with a small roster of Mortals to summon them (they produced a nice "Dark Commune" after all) as well as a generic Marine unit, sorceror/ Master of Possession/Dark Apostle and Possessed. So you'd at least had easy access to a small Chaos circle.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

You know what’s even more frustrating about 40K Chaos?

AoS Chaos is getting so much love.

Oodles of different cults, tribes and Warbands. Unique and interesting gribbly monsters. Random beasties.

13 separate tribes via WarCry, all available in Slaves to Darkness. Each with a distinct and distinctive look.

Such variety! Such visual feast! Such….Chaos!

Integrated Daemons in God Specific Forces!

And, whilst it’s been a hot minute since I read the rules, pretty straight forward allying rules if memory serves.

**Gert**

That's because AoS has the freedom from being the flagship product that has to sell eighteen varieties of Space Marine.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

I’d like to see more stuff along the lines of Obliterators. Semi-common mutations/corruptions, enough that they can be fielded by a Champion as assets.

**Sgt. Cortez**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You know what’s even more frustrating about 40K Chaos?

AoS Chaos is getting so much love.

Oodles of different cults, tribes and Warbands. Unique and interesting gribbly monsters. Random beasties.

13 separate tribes via WarCry, all available in Slaves to Darkness. Each with a distinct and distinctive look.

Such variety! Such visual feast! Such….Chaos!

Integrated Daemons in God Specific Forces!

And, whilst it’s been a hot minute since I read the rules, pretty straight forward allying rules if memory serves.

Well, they did include some daemon units in the DG and TS books in 8th edition, but they did so in a very silly way (basically only to fill pages because you could summon them).
It is beyond me why GW is that strict on separating Codizes and preventing overlapping datasheets (and then they also don’t, see Rhinos and Defilers). You could reprint all Nurgle Daemons in the DG book, but GW doesn't want to because of some strange view at faction identity (that at the same time gets thrown out the window because of nmnr and kit restrictions).

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Do folks generally feel that piling God Specific Daemons into God Specific Legions would yield interesting forces?

**Sgt. Cortez**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Do folks generally feel that piling God Specific Daemons into God Specific Legions would yield interesting forces?

I think the Daemons side wins more from it than the Marine side, but since GW likes to reduce the roster of the Cult legions and throw out random units it's at least a small compensation

Whenever this topic gets brought up it's hard for me to grasp what would be the best solution that is compatible with GWs Codex model. For me personally, it would be a giant tome of Nurgle with everything from Traitor guard over Daemons, Death Guard, The Purge , Nurgle Beastmen up to Nurgle Knights.
However, writing such a book 5 times would look pretty silly, as it would be 5 times a book the size of the bloated SM Codex and every one of these would have about 80% of the same basic data sheets with the undivided book having to include everything all the others combined have minus the god-specific named heroes probably.
For it to work GW would have to use a totally different approach with a working digital Codex or something like OPRs army forge. Even current battlescribe is pretty smooth as you can easily include legends, Forgeworld and allied daemons in your Death Guard roster.

**Gert**

I mean firstly it would give Daemons a chance to actually get releases because instead of one army getting a release, it would be 4.

Daemons have eaten well with new kits not because of 40k but because of AoS.
New Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh Daemons all came with AoS army books rather than 40k ones.
The last time 40k Daemons got a specific release tied to a Codex was when Daemonkin came out in 7th with the updated Bloodthirster and Skarbrand.
Be'lakor was an AoS release for the Broken Realms storyline and the updated Daemonprice likewise was a dual kit for CSM and Slaves to Darkness.
Vashtorr is the only Daemon release for 40k and that's because it is specifically tied to 40k, similar to how Synessa/Dexcessa are AoS only.

40k should be the same as AoS with the CSM book, God books, and Knights with a 25% rule for including God-aligned units for the non-marked armies. Keeping the Dreadblade rule is simple enough and allows for a Knight to be included in any Chaos list as well.
For individual cases such as Abaddon or Be'lakor who command the allegiance of all forms of Chaos, give them a special rule that allows them to be taken in any Chaos army.

**Rihgu**

Gert wrote:
I mean firstly it would give Daemons a chance to actually get releases because instead of one army getting a release, it would be 4.

Daemons have eaten well with new kits not because of 40k but because of AoS.
New Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh Daemons all came with AoS army books rather than 40k ones.
The last time 40k Daemons got a specific release tied to a Codex was when Daemonkin came out in 7th with the updated Bloodthirster and Skarbrand.
Be'lakor was an AoS release for the Broken Realms storyline and the updated Daemonprice likewise was a dual kit for CSM and Slaves to Darkness.
Vashtorr is the only Daemon release for 40k and that's because it is specifically tied to 40k, similar to how Synessa/Dexcessa are AoS only.

Even Bloodthirster and Skarbrand were WHFB releases, alongside the Wrathmongers, Skullreapers, and Skarr Bloodwrath.

**Gert**

That is a good point.

**H.B.M.C.**

Given how Daemons have been used in both games for as far back as most of us can remember, I still think it's surprising that Synessa and Dexcessa are AoS only.

**Wyzilla**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
This is something Grotsnik started a thread about ages ago.

I think the best example of why Daemons don't work as mono-god armies can be best summed up by Total War Warhammer 3.

In that game you have 5 Daemon factions:

1. Daemon Prince (essentially Undivided)
2. Khorne
3. Nurgle
4. Tzeentch
5. Slaanesh

Sounds obvious, right? Well, they've had to stretch out the mono-god rosters to breaking points (like butter that has been scraped over too much bread, to quote a certain short person), inventing 'Exalted' units and turning unit characters into Heroes and Heroes into Lords, and they still have to bulk them up with mortal units to make them work.

The Undivided faction has the mortal units, true, but it doesn't have the same problems because it has access to all 4 god-specific rosters.

Daemons just don't have the depth to function on their own. I wish they did - and I'd love to see a real expansion of Chaos Daemons to give each Chaos God 3-4 new units - but right now if playing mono-god feels hollow, then it's due to the paucity of choice.

Either that or put this Chaos Daemons malarkey that we've been suffering from since 4th Ed to bed and just put them back into the damned CSM Codex!

I think part of the trouble is that, for WHFB this isn't and issue and this is what informed mono rosters to begin with. Got a Khorne army? Well your typical WHFB army is only going to have five blocks of units on average so that's... two or three units of infantry, two units of cavalry, some skirmisher/chaff hounds, and some big models here and there. Done. 40k or as you mentioned total war? You're looking at more than ten units at minimum. Suddenly the roster doesn't stretch well.

**Void__Dragon**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Do folks generally feel that piling God Specific Daemons into God Specific Legions would yield interesting forces?

No, I want to play Daemons, not Whiny Spiky Marines with some disposable Daemon chaff and maybe a big monster on the side.

Anyone who wants to force Daemons to be only playable with Chaos Marines can eat an entire bag of diarrhea tbh.

**ccs**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Do folks generally feel that piling God Specific Daemons into God Specific Legions would yield interesting forces?

I wouldn't mind the option to freely mix the two if I felt like it. But I definitely don't want the only way to play either one to be as a mixed force.