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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Imagine extra-codicil Detachments. Proscribing the units it allows, with any not mentioned not being allow (I think proscribe is the right term, if not remember I never claimed not to be an idiot), and from there Taking Whatever You Bloody Well Please.

That's basically how some of the Legendary Legion army ilsts in MESBG work, for example, Men of the West draws a restricted list of units from (I think) 4 different army lists: The Fellowship, Gondor, Rohan, Fiefdoms.

Personally I think an all-singing-all-dancing Codex could be done in a book similar to the larger FW Imperial Armour/Horus Heresy tomes.

Question though..... recently renegade chapters are likely to fit a Loyalist archetype, why could that not simply be done with Loyalist Codex/Detachment + Allied Daemons?

World Eaters are definitely a baffling one.

No Jugger Cavalry. No Cult Terminators.

The latter one is truly baffling, as Red Butchers from the Heresy era are such a strong concept. Marines so far gone from the Butcher’s Nails, they’re sealed in remotely activated Terminator Armour. When not required for battle, they’re keep up on chains, their deactivated armour acting as a prison.

Now imagine those, but 40,000 years later. They’re armour tattered and hastily repaired, with daemon embellishment.

Give them something like a compulsory teleport deployment, to represent the safest way to get such loonies on and off ship.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
World Eaters are definitely a baffling one.

No Jugger Cavalry. No Cult Terminators.

The latter one is truly baffling, as Red Butchers from the Heresy era are such a strong concept. Marines so far gone from the Butcher’s Nails, they’re sealed in remotely activated Terminator Armour. When not required for battle, they’re keep up on chains, their deactivated armour acting as a prison.

Now imagine those, but 40,000 years later. They’re armour tattered and hastily repaired, with daemon embellishment.

Give them something like a compulsory teleport deployment, to represent the safest way to get such loonies on and off ship.

WE is 100% getting a wave 2 that brings all the obviously missing units (copium).

I remain of opinion the lists don't offer the flexibility you can get from the model range.
They need to have a more varied selection of core representing the different possibilities.
So the vet of long war set up. The types of mixed squads you see in the fluff. Squads along lines of deathwatch with mix of CSM, havocs, raptors, terminators etc.
The core legion/new renegades squads. 10-20 marines in the style of the old legions but also newly turned chapters where organisation has broken down and the squads form around charismatic leaders.
Then the existing smaller squads showing ex loyalists and more tactical groups of renegades.

Would give flexibility to do different legions and different sorts of warbands.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
World Eaters are definitely a baffling one.

No Jugger Cavalry. No Cult Terminators.

The latter one is truly baffling, as Red Butchers from the Heresy era are such a strong concept. Marines so far gone from the Butcher’s Nails, they’re sealed in remotely activated Terminator Armour. When not required for battle, they’re keep up on chains, their deactivated armour acting as a prison.

Now imagine those, but 40,000 years later. They’re armour tattered and hastily repaired, with daemon embellishment.

Give them something like a compulsory teleport deployment, to represent the safest way to get such loonies on and off ship.

WE is 100% getting a wave 2 that brings all the obviously missing units (copium).

You mean what players should've demanded rightfully be there and yet bought it anyways.

I'm in the same boat with my TS army. Love the models and the modelling potential, but the army is overall rather lazy. You have Magnus, Rubrics and Scarabs, and the rest of the unique army is just AoS stuff ported over with a couple of Autopistols thrown in. The worst part is the Tzaangors come with additional bits, such as twin-handed swords, champions and shields but GW didn't add rules for them.

Really hoping we get additional units but my cynical side is telling me we'll get the usual "Here's a new character you didn't need" schtick.

For those who play TS, what other Marine units might you suggest?

Porting over from 2nd Ed Epic, I’d love to see exotic Heavy Weapon troops riding Discs. Something oddly nippy to offset the plodding nature of the main infantry, and some Legion specific Daemon Engines. Ones on the smaller side, like the Nurglesque ones.

That's a great idea! We only really have cultists and jakhals (who are just jacked up berzerkers, so they don't really count). It would be so cool to have some kind of special cultist or traitor guard rule which gave them different stats or rules per legion. Would expand the converting options greatly

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I remain of opinion the lists don't offer the flexibility you can get from the model range.
They need to have a more varied selection of core representing the different possibilities.
So the vet of long war set up. The types of mixed squads you see in the fluff. Squads along lines of deathwatch with mix of CSM, havocs, raptors, terminators etc.
The core legion/new renegades squads. 10-20 marines in the style of the old legions but also newly turned chapters where organisation has broken down and the squads form around charismatic leaders.
Then the existing smaller squads showing ex loyalists and more tactical groups of renegades.

Would give flexibility to do different legions and different sorts of warbands.

That’s a very cool idea.

In the previous edition, I was advocating for squads having a choice in unit Champion, anywhere from Aspiring to Lord, to represent not all Warbands are huge, sprawling affair.

But your one works nicely too.

The Kill Team unit was previously the closest expression of that we’ve seen, with mini-Sorcerors and the ilk within the squad.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For those who play TS, what other Marine units might you suggest?

Porting over from 2nd Ed Epic, I’d love to see exotic Heavy Weapon troops riding Discs. Something oddly nippy to offset the plodding nature of the main infantry, and some Legion specific Daemon Engines. Ones on the smaller side, like the Nurglesque ones.

Doomknight-ish models
Melee rubrics
Mirrorfiend
Silver tower fortification (i don't care if it sucks even)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For those who play TS, what other Marine units might you suggest?

Porting over from 2nd Ed Epic, I’d love to see exotic Heavy Weapon troops riding Discs. Something oddly nippy to offset the plodding nature of the main infantry, and some Legion specific Daemon Engines. Ones on the smaller side, like the Nurglesque ones.

TS Havocs: I picture them as carrying either SRCs or some sort of Psy-Lascannon and a unique power that boosts their accuracy.
Elite Scarabs: Maybe something like the Phoenix Guard, just a pair of halberd-wielding Scarabs, although with the changes to characters in 10th they may already be a bit obsolete.
I could see TS Bikers being a thing, but I'm guessing I'm in a minority on that one.

I think that a huge mistake was made by pushing Tzeentch fully into the wizards and rubrics direction. It makes it much harder to do all the interesting things you'd expect from the followers of a god of change. And it of course also doesn't work for anyone else following Tzeentch. I however do think that there is room for some more variety. It's not like the legions that became cult legions didn't have units like bikers, heavy weapons troops, or things like that. Those can certainly be included. As for the Thousand Sons, you could also have more recent units of minor psykers if that's the direction they want to go into, including all sorts of gribbly mutations.

The other cult legions can also have things like that. I generally think that it was a bad idea to give them independent codices that pulled them away from the rest of what their forces would have been like. Having a few cult units available would have worked much better, also in the context of armies being a warband or collection of warbands instead of a fully organised and uniformed force.

And I'll spare everyone the rant about how they already took the wrong path when they removed the integrated appraoch of Beasts, Mortals, and Daemons of Chaos in Fantasy.

I don’t mind the separate Codex approach. But, I don’t like the finickity allying rules, which prevent a truly chaotic looking army being collected.

But this is something I feel Detachments can readily and handily address. Add in a list of valid units, listing which Codex they can be found in. Or just which Codecies can be drawn on.

Yes that could make for some powerful combos. But you could balance it by not having a Detachment Special Bonus. The bonus being your wide choice of units.

Moaning about Chaos? A Slaanesh project in the making I assume...

No.

In the mating.

Bow Chika Wow Wow!

I'll rate this pun Doc/20





Yes I'm using french notations

GW also need to really pull their finger out and do Lost and Damned.

Not just naughty guardsmen who deserve a hot bottom and then straight to bed without any rations, but cults, mutants, beastmen, and all the weird little gribblies in between.

Because it is and has always been Cult and Illicit Gatherings that Chaos has drawn its true strength from.

It’s the mortals being so easily and often willingly corrupted and swollen with borrowed power that has kept The Imperium chasing its tail for 10,000 years.

Now, granted, Chaos is somewhat boxed into a corner here, because the GSC range does a bang up job of being “citizens that have done some terrible things, and want to do”, from the overall structure, super specialised characters and repurposed industrial equipment.

But…part of me is thinking….so what?. Why shouldn’t a Chaos Cult Army have a structure and unit choice lifted and repurposed from GSC? Don’t just change names and design though. Just, share stuff like weapons and vehicles.

Reflect on the board that in the background, GSC often go undetected despite engagement because “a bunch of weirdo mutants driving around in upgunned civilian vehicles” is just put down to Chaos Cult activity and Yes Sir We Absolutely Got Them All, Triple Thumbs Up”

Show the twin cancers rotting away the heart of The Imperium. How a relative handful of survivors can scurry away and metastases into a new form over time.

Just….please be more than Guard But These Ones Am Spiky.

Chaos IMO should have these books :

-Slaves to Darkness ("Black legion" + Belakor)
-Thousand Sons (TS + Tzeentch Demons)
-Death Guard (DG + Nurgle demons)
-World Eaters (WE + khorne demons)
-Emperor's children (EC + slaanesh demons)
-lost and damned (chaos guard)
-Dark mechanicus
-Chaos knights

Let Slaves To Darkness bring any unit as allies

Restrict the god-legions to only L&D/Darkmech/Chaosknight allies

On the title of Slaves to Darkness?

Yes.

We need the self destructive tragedy of Chaos back. That for a time, and varying from devotee to devotee, embracing the Chaos Gods does bring you freedom. You can throw off the shackles of mortal servitude, and embrace your passions. Just…..to find out far, far too late you’ve swapped mortal shackles for immortal ones. Even a Daemon Prince lacks full agency.

Well, heck, you just have to look at Age of Sigmar and Warcry (or even Underworlds) to see some of the stuff that GW could do with Chaos cultists if they put their production budget to it.

The current non-Marine Chaos offerings in 40k look pretty cool.

All solid mono-pose optionless models, but beyond that they certainly look the part.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The current non-Marine Chaos offerings in 40k look pretty cool.

All solid mono-pose optionless models, but beyond that they certainly look the part.

The solution to the mono-pose problem:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Chaos IMO should have these books :

-Slaves to Darkness ("Black legion" + Belakor)
-Thousand Sons (TS + Tzeentch Demons)
-Death Guard (DG + Nurgle demons)
-World Eaters (WE + khorne demons)
-Emperor's children (EC + slaanesh demons)
-lost and damned (chaos guard)
-Dark mechanicus
-Chaos knights it

Good lord. Eight books, and pure daemons would still be lacking support.
Why not throw in Chaos Eldar while we're at it?

ccs wrote:
The solution to the mono-pose problem:

Cute, but no. Also misses the point of why mono-pose is so bad: It's not just a modelling thing that can be solved with a fething blade and some glue. Monopose has a direct and immedate impact on the RULES and the OPTIONS that units have.

How the hell can we be this far into NMNR and you still don't grasp such a basic concept? Or you do understand that, but just wanted to go for a cheap shot. Which is it?

It’s especially disappointing/frustrating for Chaos, who are probably the galactic force least disposed to a recognisable order of battle.

A Tactical Squad’s load out is set out in the Codex Astartes.

A Chaos Marine Squad’s load out is, background wise, only really limited by what they’ve been able to steal, seize, or barter for, or perhaps their Aspiring Champion’s own preference.

The Kill Team version as mentioned before is really close to realising that potential, with various mini-specialists in among the regular dudes, representing Marines starting to embrace their passions, and who might one day grow to a position of genuine power and authority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I do agree the range is looking pretty spectacular these days. I’d still like more cosmetic level mutations and Greeblies, but the overall aesthetic is easily the best it’s been in ages, if not ever.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Chaos IMO should have these books :

-Slaves to Darkness ("Black legion" + Belakor)
-Thousand Sons (TS + Tzeentch Demons)
-Death Guard (DG + Nurgle demons)
-World Eaters (WE + khorne demons)
-Emperor's children (EC + slaanesh demons)
-lost and damned (chaos guard)
-Dark mechanicus
-Chaos knights it

Good lord. Eight books, and pure daemons would still be lacking support.
Why not throw in Chaos Eldar while we're at it?

I agree. I think GW should be encouraging more creativity in how players approach armies and actively encouraging using the IG and AM books to create Chaos versions of those armies. You don't need super Chaosy rules to run Dark Mechanicum. Ad Mech are already pretty twisted and messed up anyway, and for the most part I don't think a Chaos Guard army would work much differently to a regular Guard army.

Unfortunately, GW insist on every last unit having a bespoke special rule and every kit having its own unit entry, so we now have specific Cadian and not-Krieg squads on top of regular Infantry Squads, for example. IMO, they're going the wrong way

Slipspace wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Chaos IMO should have these books :

-Slaves to Darkness ("Black legion" + Belakor)
-Thousand Sons (TS + Tzeentch Demons)
-Death Guard (DG + Nurgle demons)
-World Eaters (WE + khorne demons)
-Emperor's children (EC + slaanesh demons)
-lost and damned (chaos guard)
-Dark mechanicus
-Chaos knights it

Good lord. Eight books, and pure daemons would still be lacking support.
Why not throw in Chaos Eldar while we're at it?

I agree. I think GW should be encouraging more creativity in how players approach armies and actively encouraging using the IG and AM books to create Chaos versions of those armies. You don't need super Chaosy rules to run Dark Mechanicum. Ad Mech are already pretty twisted and messed up anyway, and for the most part I don't think a Chaos Guard army would work much differently to a regular Guard army.

Unfortunately, GW insist on every last unit having a bespoke special rule and every kit having its own unit entry, so we now have specific Cadian and not-Krieg squads on top of regular Infantry Squads, for example. IMO, they're going the wrong way

True. There should also be a renegade detachment in the loyalist SM Codex for newly turned renegades. As well as Fallen in the DA supplement.
Edit: oh, and please, finally put all the Knights in one book, no matter if they have Spikes or not!

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Chaos IMO should have these books :

-Slaves to Darkness ("Black legion" + Belakor)
-Thousand Sons (TS + Tzeentch Demons)
-Death Guard (DG + Nurgle demons)
-World Eaters (WE + khorne demons)
-Emperor's children (EC + slaanesh demons)
-lost and damned (chaos guard)
-Dark mechanicus
-Chaos knights it

Good lord. Eight books, and pure daemons would still be lacking support.
Why not throw in Chaos Eldar while we're at it?

Thats 2 more books that what we'll inevitably end up with.... (Actually, its only one more book, since my proposal would mean no more Demon codex)
And each of those armies have more difference between each of them than any Space marines chapters (including the non codex compliant ones)

And "Pure demon" arguably shouldn't be a thing anyway. A Chaos Codex spread that looks like the AoS ones would be sooo much better IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:

I agree. I think GW should be encouraging more creativity in how players approach armies and actively encouraging using the IG and AM books to create Chaos versions of those armies. You don't need super Chaosy rules to run Dark Mechanicum. Ad Mech are already pretty twisted and messed up anyway, and for the most part I don't think a Chaos Guard army would work much differently to a regular Guard army.

Unfortunately, GW insist on every last unit having a bespoke special rule and every kit having its own unit entry, so we now have specific Cadian and not-Krieg squads on top of regular Infantry Squads, for example. IMO, they're going the wrong way

True, ideally, i'd rather GW make their codexes like OPR does. But we're already on the "everything gets a book" slope with the existence of 3/4 god legions

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
And "Pure demon" arguably shouldn't be a thing anyway. A Chaos Codex spread that looks like the AoS ones would be sooo much better IMO.

Why no pure Daemons?

Also you can take pure daemons in the AoS books just fine...