GW wrote:All we can tell you right now is that an elite band of screenwriters, each with their own particular passion for Warhammer, is being assembled to help bring the setting and characters you love to the screen.
Good one. I haven't read "top men" phrasing a very long time.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: First show, 4 hours of a shirtless Henry Cavill painting Custodeus!
GW has finally found a way to break into the women's market!
I don't know about painting, but Henry Cavill is the perfect reason to make the movie/show historical and bring back bare-chested Custodes.
I wonder what this means for the future of Warhammer+? Going to be interesting to see what emerges.
I hope Henry can keep the content lore accurate, would be an absolute travesty if we get a watered down generic sci-fi end product. The fethed up, grim dark needs to be retained... even if that means alienating some potential customers.
Interesting. I read an article on one of the financial sites the other day saying it had all fallen through.
Looking forward to it, but it's so far in the future, I'll try and forget about it for a while.
stonehorse wrote: I wonder what this means for the future of Warhammer+? Going to be interesting to see what emerges.
I hope Henry can keep the content lore accurate, would be an absolute travesty if we get a watered down generic sci-fi end product. The fethed up, grim dark needs to be retained... even if that means alienating some potential customers.
Ah someone else saw the Mutant Chronicles movie I see...
stonehorse wrote: I wonder what this means for the future of Warhammer+? Going to be interesting to see what emerges.
I hope Henry can keep the content lore accurate, would be an absolute travesty if we get a watered down generic sci-fi end product. The fethed up, grim dark needs to be retained... even if that means alienating some potential customers.
Ah someone else saw the Mutant Chronicles movie I see...
Nope, was never into that IP, but I have heard bad things about the film.
Dudeface wrote: Interesting given Valraks latest intel about the deal, either it wasn't right or they fixed the contract super fast.
A lot of Valrak's info he gets second hand off other sources (I've seen some of his supposed 'leaks' appear on here hours before he announces them), probably just a case of him not properly authenticating whatever rumour he heard.
As for the deal I remain cautiously optimistic, lets see what happens. Can't be any worse than what they did to The Witcher after S1 and it seems like Cavill has learned his lesson by putting himself in creative control.
stonehorse wrote: I wonder what this means for the future of Warhammer+? Going to be interesting to see what emerges.
I hope Henry can keep the content lore accurate, would be an absolute travesty if we get a watered down generic sci-fi end product. The fethed up, grim dark needs to be retained... even if that means alienating some potential customers.
Warhammer+ was a test bed to see if Warhammer shows were marketable/profitable and despite what naysayers will have you believe, that's exactly what it's proven. On a tiny budget, GW broke even, in a time when streaming sites are really struggling to do even that.
I don't doubt that it was a requirement to prove to potential investors that making any Warhammer content was viable.
Warhammer+ will undoubtedly stay, my money is on the first round of shows being available on Amazon Plus with new shows exclusive to Warhammer+ before finding their way there. Or, WarhammerTV might be available at some point via Amazon Prime, much like channels like Shudder are.
Well... this can really only go one of two ways. And one of those ways is "Rings of Power".
As always: Be careful what you wish for.
StraightSilver wrote: On a tiny budget, GW broke even, in a time when streaming sites are really struggling to do even that.
They offered exclusive miniatures and it's not as if they were spending a fraction of the money on productions than any real streaming service actually is. And comparing them to even smaller streamers like Peacock and making it out like W+ is some sort of winner in that market is laughable. More people have unsubscribed from D+ in the time W+ has been running than have ever subscribed to W+.
I think WH+ was also GW figuring out what sort of translation they’d actually be happy with.
Because that I think is an important question when it comes to any IP, and if you yourself can’t answer it, can you properly protect your IP?
I guess there’s also the question of what makes a given Rating. I’ve read opinions of unknown accuracy that you can still get a family friendly rating if you have some swears and messy deaths, provided it’s mostly implied.
So if going for a cinematic release? We may be treated to a single “and this is what a Bolter does to the human body” type shot, with the rest being neatly off-screen, or if blowing away say, Genestealer Cultists, purple rather than red blood.
You can have lots of violence and zero blood and still get a PG-13 rating. You can have every gak in the world, but as long as no one says 'feth' more than once, you're golden.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You can have lots of violence and zero blood and still get a PG-13 rating. You can have every gak in the world, but as long as no one says 'feth' more than once, you're golden.
Ratings are stupid.
derived by the American market mostly, all the violence, blood and gore you like because *waves flag*! but Gork forbid a nipple is seen
only real question is will they hire enough English actors to be the bad guys?
Necromunda or one of the Warhammer Quests stories would probably be a good starting point.
Blackstone Fortress has that "Moria in space" feel to it, and even has it's own "Balrog" in the form of the Ambull. Necromunda immediately brings Doctor Who's Paradise Towers and Happiness Patrol to mind, and is a place for many interesting stories; maybe a travelling troupe of Harlequins are performing for a noble but they're really in town for their own agenda.
This way they wouldn't have to start off in the large-scale wars and keep things manageable until the greater cinema audience becomes more familiar with the Warhammer thing.
Dudeface wrote: Interesting given Valraks latest intel about the deal, either it wasn't right or they fixed the contract super fast.
He was just wrong in this case. Valrak sources rumours, and in this case he just believed something that was (TBH fairly obviously) false.
To give the guy fair credit, he did state he wasn't sure he believed it either and wasn't even going to report it but had similar statement from 2 sources. He at no point peddled it as fact.
SamusDrake wrote: Necromunda or one of the Warhammer Quests stories would probably be a good starting point.
Blackstone Fortress has that "Moria in space" feel to it, and even has it's own "Balrog" in the form of the Ambull. Necromunda immediately brings Doctor Who's Paradise Towers and Happiness Patrol to mind, and is a place for many interesting stories; maybe a travelling troupe of Harlequins are performing for a noble but they're really in town for their own agenda.
This way they wouldn't have to start off in the large-scale wars and keep things manageable until the greater cinema audience becomes more familiar with the Warhammer thing.
Budgetary considerations aside, I don't know if that's desirable to GW. I'll draw a comparison to Black Library. Initially we got Imperium-centric bolter porn as the main fare. It took many years before Xenos perspectives were added, and similarly for crime and horror to emerge as book categories.
If I were a betting man I'd say GW wants to lead with a big spectacle featuring their most recognizable property to wow people and satisfying their core fans before they branch out into more specific or niche things.
Lord Damocles wrote: I'm glad that Amazon haven't produced any major adaptations which have absolutely bombed recently...
Not necessarily an unfair observation, but a somewhat myopic one. American Gods, Invincible, The Boys, Jack Reacher, Good Omens all stand testament that just as Rings of Power can prove Amazon can get it a bit wrong*, they can also get it pretty much spot on.
*I enjoyed it well enough. Regardless of what it may or may not have done to the source material, it was still a well made bit of Fantasy silliness.
SamusDrake wrote: Necromunda or one of the Warhammer Quests stories would probably be a good starting point.
Blackstone Fortress has that "Moria in space" feel to it, and even has it's own "Balrog" in the form of the Ambull. Necromunda immediately brings Doctor Who's Paradise Towers and Happiness Patrol to mind, and is a place for many interesting stories; maybe a travelling troupe of Harlequins are performing for a noble but they're really in town for their own agenda.
This way they wouldn't have to start off in the large-scale wars and keep things manageable until the greater cinema audience becomes more familiar with the Warhammer thing.
Budgetary considerations aside, I don't know if that's desirable to GW. I'll draw a comparison to Black Library. Initially we got Imperium-centric bolter porn as the main fare. It took many years before Xenos perspectives were added, and similarly for crime and horror to emerge as book categories.
If I were a betting man I'd say GW wants to lead with a big spectacle featuring their most recognizable property to wow people and satisfying their core fans before they branch out into more specific or niche things.
Yeah.
Marines are going to be in it pretty much certainly. Even if not as main cast somehow they will be featured heavily.
Any idea that doesn't involve heavy marine combat at least at some point is not going to be it.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Interesting. I read an article on one of the financial sites the other day saying it had all fallen through.
Looking forward to it, but it's so far in the future, I'll try and forget about it for a while.
I saw something similar pass me by on twitter about how the GW exec in charge fluffed up the fine print of the contracts with Amazon, but it was a dodgy source, so it looks like that wasn't true after all.
i'll be interested to see what eventually appears,
I actually think the biggest risk is that it does do (very) well and ends up prompting a big (US) company with a huge checkbook like Hasbro/Disney etc trying a takeover of GW and then blandificating it (even more) to try and make it appeal to the mainstream
Thing is, theoretically if this is successful, it’ll raise GW’s stock price. Which is already considerable. £99.25 is the at-time-of-typing-price. And there are apparently 32,950,000 shares out there.
To even buy a 10% stake? That’s like….a lot of money. A lot a lot. £327,028,750 if my maths is correct. And generally in making a takeover bid, it seems you pay over the current price.
Now, what percentage makes an owning share? Absolutely no clue. And it’s all on the betting you can make that money back, and more, when you’ve taken it over. Which given GW is something of a unique beast, is by no means guaranteed.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I guess there’s also the question of what makes a given Rating. I’ve read opinions of unknown accuracy that you can still get a family friendly rating if you have some swears and messy deaths, provided it’s mostly implied.
I really hope that whatever they do, it doesn't water down some of the horrific grimdark nature of the setting to cater to mainstream audiences. So, so many things these days seem to be made with little to no care or understanding towards the source material.
Not expecting much from it considering how some of Amazon's recent shows have been though, unfortunately.
It's going to be a coin toss - will Warhammer become the next "Marvel Universe" and finally break through to the masses, or will it end up being an abomination no one cares about and the fans of the setting will try to purge from their minds?
Whatever it will become, it'll have Primaris instead of Firstborn in it, so my interest is already low. My vision of 40K is too cynical and too rooted in UK scifi traditions to ever be considered something for the masses.
SamusDrake wrote: Necromunda or one of the Warhammer Quests stories would probably be a good starting point.
Blackstone Fortress has that "Moria in space" feel to it, and even has it's own "Balrog" in the form of the Ambull. Necromunda immediately brings Doctor Who's Paradise Towers and Happiness Patrol to mind, and is a place for many interesting stories; maybe a travelling troupe of Harlequins are performing for a noble but they're really in town for their own agenda.
This way they wouldn't have to start off in the large-scale wars and keep things manageable until the greater cinema audience becomes more familiar with the Warhammer thing.
I like your thinking. Eisenhorn is just about ideal, IMO. Gamers' heads will immediately go to mass battles and such, but what will actually get viewers are compelling characters that they can get invested in. Not a cast of thousands and CGI warfare on some impossible scale.
Regarding Rings of Power, I thought its biggest failing was just that it was slow and a little dull. A lot of the other 'huge problems' didn't bother me. Tolkien fans are some of the very worst 'ackschully' folks out there.
Budgetary considerations aside, I don't know if that's desirable to GW. I'll draw a comparison to Black Library. Initially we got Imperium-centric bolter porn as the main fare. It took many years before Xenos perspectives were added, and similarly for crime and horror to emerge as book categories.
If I were a betting man I'd say GW wants to lead with a big spectacle featuring their most recognizable property to wow people and satisfying their core fans before they branch out into more specific or niche things.
I provided two Imperium centric settings as examples; BSF is mostly about Imperial Agents doing battle with Traitor Marines and Guard. Necromunda is set on an important Imperial Hive world. Here you can tap into LOTR, 2000AD(Judge Dredd) and even Mad Max. In the case of BSF you have a Deathstar like vessel that also taps into Starwars. In both examples Xenos are at best supporting characters, but for the most part just characters that the Imperial agents or citizens will bump into so they weren't my point.
I like your thinking. Eisenhorn is just about ideal, IMO. Gamers' heads will immediately go to mass battles and such, but what will actually get viewers are compelling characters that they can get invested in. Not a cast of thousands and CGI warfare on some impossible scale.
Regarding Rings of Power, I thought its biggest failing was just that it was slow and a little dull. A lot of the other 'huge problems' didn't bother me. Tolkien fans are some of the very worst 'ackschully' folks out there.
Exactly that. There's also the matter of successfully introducing the satire of 40K, which is easily lost on many unless spelled out to them - which GW themselves had to do not long ago. Even Dune - the most popular sci-fi novel of all time - was lost on modern audiences when Denis had to defend it by stating that it wasn't a white-saviour fantasy. The marine brotherhood and sister...sisterhood themes also might be under fire from the pride audience for not being inclusive enough. A smaller and gradual introduction might make that easier...
But if there's a Titan with a full carapace, firm leg motors and a warm plasma engine....may no man try and stop me! I'll be there on opening night!
Impressive they have Cavill on as executive producer. If Netflix had just let him also be showrunner on The Witcher, in addition yo starring in it, it would have been ten times the show. The reason so many of these adaptations go bad is because they have bad people at the top, and nobody holding the reins on the IP approval side of things.
That's why we got a terribly embarrassing LotR show and no Conan show. One said, yeah do whatever, and the other side, you won't do anything to diminish our property. Hopefully the walls tightening in on Hollywood means they'll be more willing to things somebody wants to watch and being willing to satisfy the IP holder with their work. Rings of Power was quite the black eye after all.
My main concern is whatever the end up shying away (whether intentionally or unintentionally) from portraying the Imperium in a way that makes them very obviously a group you aren't meant to side with, as there seems to be a large portion of fans these days who seem to think you're meant to root for the Imperium and who make out that they're the the best thing for humanity in the setting.
Exactly that. There's also the matter of successfully introducing the satire of 40K, which is easily lost on many unless spelled out to them - which GW themselves had to do not long ago.
Extremely easily lost, when even after that statement so, so many claim that 40k hasn't been satire since Rogue Trader. Usually while at the same time as acknowledging how absurd, nonsensical, mocking and exaggerated many aspects of 40k are....but apparently that's not satire!
Extremely easily lost, when even after that statement so, so many claim that 40k hasn't been satire since Rogue Trader. Usually at the same time as acknowledging how absurd, nonsensical, mocking and exaggerated many aspects of 40k are....but apparently that's not satire!
Actually, come to think of it they might as well not bother.
Quickly, has anyone got Henry's number? We need to warn him before it's too late!
It sounds like the deal is to continue development; a long way from anything ever getting.
Ha! I'm not surprised. I continue to be baffled that war-com marketing has been hyping this as much as they have. It's very... provincial, I think? GW comes off as quite naive here, as these are clearly still very early days for the project. They understand "show, not tell" when it comes to marketing models but not really when it comes to anything else.
Budgetary considerations aside, I don't know if that's desirable to GW. I'll draw a comparison to Black Library. Initially we got Imperium-centric bolter porn as the main fare. It took many years before Xenos perspectives were added, and similarly for crime and horror to emerge as book categories.
If I were a betting man I'd say GW wants to lead with a big spectacle featuring their most recognizable property to wow people and satisfying their core fans before they branch out into more specific or niche things.
I provided two Imperium centric settings as examples; BSF is mostly about Imperial Agents doing battle with Traitor Marines and Guard. Necromunda is set on an important Imperial Hive world. Here you can tap into LOTR, 2000AD(Judge Dredd) and even Mad Max. In the case of BSF you have a Deathstar like vessel that also taps into Starwars. In both examples Xenos are at best supporting characters, but for the most part just characters that the Imperial agents or citizens will bump into so they weren't my point.
My point wasn't Imperium-centric in isolation. I haven't seen more than a few games of Blackstone Fortress, but it's more of a dungeon crawly adventure story thingy? Party delves into ancient place to gather riches and stuff? That's not bolter porn, really. I don't disagree with you that it has the potential to provide a more nuanced look at the setting. I just don't think GW wants that for their first big outing.
As for Necromunda, even disregarding that it's better described as human-centric as there isn't a whole lot of Imperial perspective in the average Underhive scum, it's a spin-off. You don't start a franchise with a spin-off.
SamusDrake wrote: Exactly that. There's also the matter of successfully introducing the satire of 40K, which is easily lost on many unless spelled out to them - which GW themselves had to do not long ago.
Extremely easily lost, when even after that statement so, so many claim that 40k hasn't been satire since Rogue Trader. Usually while at the same time as acknowledging how absurd, nonsensical, mocking and exaggerated many aspects of 40k are....but apparently that's not satire!
I'm not going to comment on how much satire is still in 40k since I can't bring myself to read modern stuff, but I think it's fair to point out that the drive to turn 40k into a (super)heroic, character-driven fantasy that started in 5th ed is a good way of getting people to believe that the game's direction has changed away from satire.
Budgetary considerations aside, I don't know if that's desirable to GW. I'll draw a comparison to Black Library. Initially we got Imperium-centric bolter porn as the main fare. It took many years before Xenos perspectives were added, and similarly for crime and horror to emerge as book categories.
If I were a betting man I'd say GW wants to lead with a big spectacle featuring their most recognizable property to wow people and satisfying their core fans before they branch out into more specific or niche things.
I provided two Imperium centric settings as examples; BSF is mostly about Imperial Agents doing battle with Traitor Marines and Guard. Necromunda is set on an important Imperial Hive world. Here you can tap into LOTR, 2000AD(Judge Dredd) and even Mad Max. In the case of BSF you have a Deathstar like vessel that also taps into Starwars. In both examples Xenos are at best supporting characters, but for the most part just characters that the Imperial agents or citizens will bump into so they weren't my point.
I like your thinking. Eisenhorn is just about ideal, IMO. Gamers' heads will immediately go to mass battles and such, but what will actually get viewers are compelling characters that they can get invested in. Not a cast of thousands and CGI warfare on some impossible scale.
Regarding Rings of Power, I thought its biggest failing was just that it was slow and a little dull. A lot of the other 'huge problems' didn't bother me. Tolkien fans are some of the very worst 'ackschully' folks out there.
Exactly that. There's also the matter of successfully introducing the satire of 40K, which is easily lost on many unless spelled out to them - which GW themselves had to do not long ago. Even Dune - the most popular sci-fi novel of all time - was lost on modern audiences when Denis had to defend it by stating that it wasn't a white-saviour fantasy. The marine brotherhood and sister...sisterhood themes also might be under fire from the pride audience for not being inclusive enough. A smaller and gradual introduction might make that easier...
But if there's a Titan with a full carapace, firm leg motors and a warm plasma engine....may no man try and stop me! I'll be there on opening night!
I think Eisenhorn is the thing to do. It’s human centric, got all the 40k staples (including Space Marines who are appropriately built up to in comparison to regular humans); but it’s also a engaging story with great characters and the book structure lends itself to self contained seasons that can be expanded into an ongoing narrative.
Eisenhorn is, however, likely able to fit into a sane budget. You can do a huge amount of it with regular people, regular sets and such.
As soon as you want to do Space Marines VS Tyranids on a war torn ice world then you've got to lean insanely heavily on CGI for a live action film. Even your costumes sets and such would have to be a huge investment.
Meanwhlie if you do Eisenhorn you can slow-grow things like a pool of sets, costumes and material. You can test things out; build up an inventory and generally work toward establishing a working system before tackling something much more complex.
Or you can use a live action to help grow the franchise in media and then lean into doing more animated works where you can go nuts with huge xenos armies and war torn futuristic planets. Because its all animation so you don't have to worry about huge greenscreens and vast CGI budgets and soforth.
It sounds like the deal is to continue development; a long way from anything ever getting.
Ha! I'm not surprised. I continue to be baffled that war-com marketing has been hyping this as much as they have. It's very... provincial, I think? GW comes off as quite naive here, as these are clearly still very early days for the project. They understand "show, not tell" when it comes to marketing models but not really when it comes to anything else.
This is about marketing to investors / the city, not to hobbyists. It's good for the share price.
I actually think the biggest risk is that it does do (very) well and ends up prompting a big (US) company with a huge checkbook like Hasbro/Disney etc trying a takeover of GW and then blandificating it (even more) to try and make it appeal to the mainstream
Doubt it. If Hasbro didn't swoop when GW was undergoing all sorts of troubles during the flatlining end of Kirby's era, they won't now. GW at that time was genuinely undervalued with a treasure trove of IP and were the market leading wargaming company despite repeatedly shooting themselves in the face and Hasbro or equivalent still didn't go in. Now they're arguably overvalued unless the Amazon show somehow catapults the IP to a whole new level, which I'm not entirely sure it ever will. It definitely has the potential to add a substantial amount of new fans but 40k is always going to struggle to break out of a certain niche, it's too dark and grim to capture a Star Wars wide audience and a lot of the peope who like bad ass space marines have probably already found their way to it.
I actually found the most interesting part of the announcement today that Amazon have acquired some kind of option on Warhammer Fantasy as well, not AOS but WHFB. Firstly a sign of how much more culturally significant the WHFB IP is than AOS, even now. Secondly there's interesting potential there for all kinds of films, especially animated. It's the first time WHFB has been mentioned at all in relation to Amazon and an interesting side point.
I actually found the most interesting part of the announcement today that Amazon have acquired some kind of option on Warhammer Fantasy as well, not AOS but WHFB. Firstly a sign of how much more culturally significant the WHFB IP is than AOS, even now. Secondly there's interesting potential there for all kinds of films, especially animated. It's the first time WHFB has been mentioned at all in relation to Amazon and an interesting side point.
It might also just be that Old World is very easily made with all those assets they've developed for the Rings of Power and other things. AoS is insanely high fantasy with even the land being wild and super charged. It's another "big CGI budget" affair to do right with any kind of live action. Meanwhile Old World you can do with a grimy old Medieval/Victorian set of props and such.
So chances are its again leaning on what's the most viable for a live action adaptation with a lower amount of investment to get it going.
It sounds like the deal is to continue development; a long way from anything ever getting.
Ha! I'm not surprised. I continue to be baffled that war-com marketing has been hyping this as much as they have. It's very... provincial, I think? GW comes off as quite naive here, as these are clearly still very early days for the project. They understand "show, not tell" when it comes to marketing models but not really when it comes to anything else.
This is about marketing to investors / the city, not to hobbyists. It's good for the share price.
It may turn out to be good for the share price, but a savvy investor should understand that this sort of thing falls apart all the time. In fact, (this is mostly in jest and probably won't land with any of you) hyping this non-existent deal as a deal could be construed as a form of securities fraud, because everything is securities fraud (that's a Matt Levine Money Stuff reference).
It sounds like the deal is to continue development; a long way from anything ever getting.
Ha! I'm not surprised. I continue to be baffled that war-com marketing has been hyping this as much as they have. It's very... provincial, I think? GW comes off as quite naive here, as these are clearly still very early days for the project. They understand "show, not tell" when it comes to marketing models but not really when it comes to anything else.
This is about marketing to investors / the city, not to hobbyists. It's good for the share price.
It may turn out to be good for the share price, but a savvy investor should understand that this sort of thing falls apart all the time. In fact, (this is mostly in jest and probably won't land with any of you) hyping this non-existent deal as a deal could be construed as a form of securities fraud, because everything is securities fraud (that's a Matt Levine Money Stuff reference).
Try telling that to Warhammer Reddit right now. I don't think I've ever I have seen a more shining example of putting the proverbial cart before the horse in all my years...
Gene St. Ealer wrote: It may turn out to be good for the share price, but a savvy investor should understand that this sort of thing falls apart all the time. In fact, (this is mostly in jest and probably won't land with any of you) hyping this non-existent deal as a deal could be construed as a form of securities fraud, because everything is securities fraud (that's a Matt Levine Money Stuff reference).
LOL yeah. Until they're shooting something (and even then things can happen), it's best to assume this will fall through at some stage. 'Development Hell' is real.
Mentlegen324 wrote: ... as there seems to be a large portion of fans these days who seem to think you're meant to root for the Imperium and who make out that they're the the best thing for humanity in the setting.
And just as many people who think there are no good guys in 40k, which is just as false.
Reading this article again, do they only have the rights to 40k? Considering they don't have a specific plan I thought there was at least a potential of WHFB/AoS/Horus Heresy etc but it specifically says 40k and nothing else.
Mentlegen324 wrote: ... as there seems to be a large portion of fans these days who seem to think you're meant to root for the Imperium and who make out that they're the the best thing for humanity in the setting.
And just as many people who think there are no good guys in 40k, which is just as false.
From a licensing standpoint, GW has only two universes: Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy.
Horus Heresy and Warhammer 40,000 (and Necromunda and probably a bunch of others) are both *lines* within the Warhammer 40,000 universe, Age of Sigmar and The Old World/Warhammer Fantasy are both *lines* within the Warhammer Fantasy universe. Amazon basically has rights to everything GW.
chaos0xomega wrote: From a licensing standpoint, GW has only two universes: Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy.
Horus Heresy and Warhammer 40,000 (and Necromunda and probably a bunch of others) are both *lines* within the Warhammer 40,000 universe, Age of Sigmar and The Old World/Warhammer Fantasy are both *lines* within the Warhammer Fantasy universe. Amazon basically has rights to everything GW.
Where are you getting that from? Giving someone the license to 40k doesn't also give the license to something like the Horus Heresy or Fantasy giving both Age of Sigmar and WHFB. They're their own things with separate licensing.
I mean, it is if you are talking about "lines" in this context, but there are different "containers" that licenses can fall within (line, universe, franchise, brand, etc. These terms are not generally interchangeable and are subject to how a licensor defines them). Per one of the recent GW financial reports there was a section where they discussed having two "universes". The warhammer 40,000 universe was inclusive of horus heresy, the warhammer fantasy universe was Age of sigmar and said something about how it was "soon to be joined by" The Old World or something to that effect.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Because I always feel compelled to prove myself - this wasn't the piece I was thinking of, but it was the first one I found (in the most recent full year report :
"We have two main universes/settings - our dark, gritty fantasy sci-fi universe, which encompasses ‘Warhammer 40,000’, ‘Warhammer The Horus Heresy’ and ‘Necromunda’, and our unique fantasy setting that includes ‘Warhammer Age of Sigmar’, ‘Blood Bowl’ (albeit a tongue in cheek parody) and, the soon to be released, ‘Warhammer The Old World’. We believe our IP to be among the best in the world."
GW always parcels out their IPs in discrete units. Its rare that someone just gets the license for "Warhammer" or "40k".
Many of them are much more specific, especially with all the shovelware games they've made over the years, where they were for one specific thing and nothing beyond the scope of that. There's no guarantee that getting the rights to 40k gives them the rights to The Horus Heresy. It's a different trademark.
Dark Future will stay obsured by time, since it brings up the problems of using named historical characters (Elvis, etc) with it.
As a game, I loved it. As a setting, that's what holds it back.
Also, Mad Max has moved on from being the Road Warrior. I know DF was not purely based on that, but that's what most will associate it with.
I wish I'd read that book that had Elvis as a retired Special Forces Colonel.
I like this line from a Financial Times article.
But the jeopardy is great. What if a clumsy non-player director reflexively recasts the blood-drenched exploits of orcs and space marines as a high school romcom?
I mean, let's not talk about the misspelling of Orks for 40K and the lower case for Space Marines.
I'm expecting years of development hell. I've been waiting seven years for news of Duncan Jones and his Rogue Trooper project.
I mean, it is if you are talking about "lines" in this context, but there are different "containers" that licenses can fall within (line, universe, franchise, brand, etc. These terms are not generally interchangeable and are subject to how a licensor defines them). Per one of the recent GW financial reports there was a section where they discussed having two "universes". The warhammer 40,000 universe was inclusive of horus heresy, the warhammer fantasy universe was Age of sigmar and said something about how it was "soon to be joined by" The Old World or something to that effect.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Because I always feel compelled to prove myself - this wasn't the piece I was thinking of, but it was the first one I found (in the most recent full year report :
"We have two main universes/settings - our dark, gritty fantasy sci-fi universe, which encompasses ‘Warhammer 40,000’, ‘Warhammer The Horus Heresy’ and ‘Necromunda’, and our unique fantasy setting that includes ‘Warhammer Age of Sigmar’, ‘Blood Bowl’ (albeit a tongue in cheek parody) and, the soon to be released, ‘Warhammer The Old World’. We believe our IP to be among the best in the world."
Two IP Universes is different to only having two licences within to parcel out to people.
GW very clearly segments those universes into different things. Factions, games, concepts, etc... One can get a licence for Bloodbowl to make a Bloodbowl related thing. That doesn't mean you get the "Old World" licence which comes with everything from OW and AoS.
Plus even within that Two Universe system the AoS and Old World IP are exceptionally different from each other. Even if they share some named characters and models; the actual settings are wildly different.
H.B.M.C. wrote: GW always parcels out their IPs in discrete units. Its rare that someone just gets the license for "Warhammer" or "40k".
Many of them are much more specific, especially with all the shovelware games they've made over the years, where they were for one specific thing and nothing beyond the scope of that. There's no guarantee that getting the rights to 40k gives them the rights to The Horus Heresy. It's a different trademark.
But this isn't shovelware, is it? If their press release is stating "universes" then the licensing deal with Amazon is clearly much broader than their typical approach, assuming they are remaining consistent with their own internal IP nomenclature.
I mean, it is if you are talking about "lines" in this context, but there are different "containers" that licenses can fall within (line, universe, franchise, brand, etc. These terms are not generally interchangeable and are subject to how a licensor defines them). Per one of the recent GW financial reports there was a section where they discussed having two "universes". The warhammer 40,000 universe was inclusive of horus heresy, the warhammer fantasy universe was Age of sigmar and said something about how it was "soon to be joined by" The Old World or something to that effect.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Because I always feel compelled to prove myself - this wasn't the piece I was thinking of, but it was the first one I found (in the most recent full year report :
"We have two main universes/settings - our dark, gritty fantasy sci-fi universe, which encompasses ‘Warhammer 40,000’, ‘Warhammer The Horus Heresy’ and ‘Necromunda’, and our unique fantasy setting that includes ‘Warhammer Age of Sigmar’, ‘Blood Bowl’ (albeit a tongue in cheek parody) and, the soon to be released, ‘Warhammer The Old World’. We believe our IP to be among the best in the world."
Having two settings - a sci-fi setting and a fantasy setting - doesn't also mean that the things within those settings all come under one thing when it comes to licensing and there's no separation between parts of it. They each have their own rights to be licensed out.
Like even just that quote you give there has "Warhammer 40,000", "Warhammer The Horus Heresy" and "Necromunda" as separate things that are encompassed within the sci-fi setting, yet you're claiming that just giving the "Warhammer 40,000" part of it gets them all the other stuff too - that's not what it says at all.
I mean, it is if you are talking about "lines" in this context, but there are different "containers" that licenses can fall within (line, universe, franchise, brand, etc. These terms are not generally interchangeable and are subject to how a licensor defines them). Per one of the recent GW financial reports there was a section where they discussed having two "universes". The warhammer 40,000 universe was inclusive of horus heresy, the warhammer fantasy universe was Age of sigmar and said something about how it was "soon to be joined by" The Old World or something to that effect.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Because I always feel compelled to prove myself - this wasn't the piece I was thinking of, but it was the first one I found (in the most recent full year report :
"We have two main universes/settings - our dark, gritty fantasy sci-fi universe, which encompasses ‘Warhammer 40,000’, ‘Warhammer The Horus Heresy’ and ‘Necromunda’, and our unique fantasy setting that includes ‘Warhammer Age of Sigmar’, ‘Blood Bowl’ (albeit a tongue in cheek parody) and, the soon to be released, ‘Warhammer The Old World’. We believe our IP to be among the best in the world."
Two IP Universes is different to only having two licences within to parcel out to people.
GW very clearly segments those universes into different things. Factions, games, concepts, etc... One can get a licence for Bloodbowl to make a Bloodbowl related thing. That doesn't mean you get the "Old World" licence which comes with everything from OW and AoS.
Plus even within that Two Universe system the AoS and Old World IP are exceptionally different from each other. Even if they share some named characters and models; the actual settings are wildly different.
All well and good, but just because GW typically segments and licenses individual lines, doesn't mean it cannot bundle and license an entire universe. These are not mutually exclusive events.
Lord Damocles wrote: I'm glad that Amazon haven't produced any major adaptations which have absolutely bombed recently...
Honestly, it's harder to feth up 40k than lord of the rings. Warhammer is mostly vibes, and the vibes aren't even consistent. You can have explicitly black and white heroic bolter porn (despite the, uh, problems with presenting space marines and the imperium as purely good heroes) or dark gritty explorations of the awful human condition of the setting. Like you get the whole spectrum in current media offerings already.
LotR is based of a singular author's work, and Tolkein had a clear vision. When you deviate from that, it is immediately clear and makes a mess. Also tolkein hated crass allegory (even when he, despite his words, used it. He at least was a lot more deft then "ELF LOVER!")
Lord Damocles wrote: I'm glad that Amazon haven't produced any major adaptations which have absolutely bombed recently...
Not necessarily an unfair observation, but a somewhat myopic one. American Gods, Invincible, The Boys, Jack Reacher, Good Omens all stand testament that just as Rings of Power can prove Amazon can get it a bit wrong*, they can also get it pretty much spot on.
*I enjoyed it well enough. Regardless of what it may or may not have done to the source material, it was still a well made bit of Fantasy silliness.
American gods went off a cliff over casting chaos and creative differences after, like, season 2
Gimgamgoo wrote: Interesting. I read an article on one of the financial sites the other day saying it had all fallen through.
Looking forward to it, but it's so far in the future, I'll try and forget about it for a while.
I saw something similar pass me by on twitter about how the GW exec in charge fluffed up the fine print of the contracts with Amazon, but it was a dodgy source, so it looks like that wasn't true after all.
I mean, even if they did Amazon isn't gonna go "HAHA! GOTCHYA!" with GW. A good working relationship matters and contracts can be amended over errors.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Reading this article again, do they only have the rights to 40k? Considering they don't have a specific plan I thought there was at least a potential of WHFB/AoS/Horus Heresy etc but it specifically says 40k and nothing else.
Mentlegen324 wrote: ... as there seems to be a large portion of fans these days who seem to think you're meant to root for the Imperium and who make out that they're the the best thing for humanity in the setting.
And just as many people who think there are no good guys in 40k, which is just as false.
Oh yeah, the thing about the fethed up contract that was signed by a single executive without reading it is almost certainly 100% horsegak.
Amongst publicly traded companies it's typical for agreements of significant commercial magnitude (as this deal arguably would be), as well as those involving distribution or licensure of corporate assets or IP, or which enter the company into agreements of material importance to the company (IP license deals, partnerships, etc) to require review and approval by the boards of directors of both companies befire entering into effect. One person can't just impulsively sign away a companies IP, the world doesn't work that way.
I mean the reason it was so obviously bollocks was simply that even if you believe GW are that inept, the odds that both Cavill's production company and Amazon Studios would accept a term sheet sent to them that didn't come from the company's council with a lawyer countersigning it to ensure that the requisite signing authority is in place is zero.
Amazon Studios legal term are all former big studio people, they're not going to take a term sheet written by some idiot exec.
Mentlegen324 wrote: ... as there seems to be a large portion of fans these days who seem to think you're meant to root for the Imperium and who make out that they're the the best thing for humanity in the setting.
And just as many people who think there are no good guys in 40k, which is just as false.
There are people that think Walter White is the protagonist. There are even weirder people who look up to Homelander.
Doesn’t matter how you present them, someone intent on misinterpreting is gonna misinterpret. Not to mention those who really don’t get they’re baddies, and not to be held up.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: There are people that think Walter White is the protagonist. There are even weirder people who look up to Homelander.
Doesn’t matter how you present them, someone intent on misinterpreting is gonna misinterpret. Not to mention those who really don’t get they’re baddies, and not to be held up.
Isn't Walter White the protagonist though? There is a difference between protagonist and hero. Same with antagonist and villain. In most stories they are one and the same but not always.
Protagonist = The main character we follow. Antagonist = a character opposing the antagonist.
Yep, every protagonist is someone elses antagonist. The terms are not mutually exclusive nor based in moral stance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Phazer wrote: I mean the reason it was so obviously bollocks was simply that even if you believe GW are that inept, the odds that both Cavill's production company and Amazon Studios would accept a term sheet sent to them that didn't come from the company's council with a lawyer countersigning it to ensure that the requisite signing authority is in place is zero.
Amazon Studios legal term are all former big studio people, they're not going to take a term sheet written by some idiot exec.
I didn't follow the rumor closely enough, is whats being claimed that someone at GW tried writing up their own contract and pushing it through without oversight? Thats even more ridiculous than I thought - my understanding was that Amazon sent GW a contract and said unnamed exec signed it without any review or discussion.
chaos0xomega wrote: I didn't follow the rumor closely enough, is whats being claimed that someone at GW tried writing up their own contract and pushing it through without oversight?
alphaecho wrote: I'm expecting years of development hell. I've been waiting seven years for news of Duncan Jones and his Rogue Trooper project.
Not to mention the Mega-City One anthology series that has been seemingly floating around forever. The Dredd movie was over a decade ago, now!
We'll sadly never see that show at this point. We're more likely see both the two fan films with existing trailers finally completed and released before seeing a further Dredd film.
chaos0xomega wrote: I didn't follow the rumor closely enough, is whats being claimed that someone at GW tried writing up their own contract and pushing it through without oversight?
More or less:
Spoiler:
I know plenty seem to have a pretty low opinion of GW and they've made many mistakes in the past, but not really anything that was that incompetent. It's such an absurd thing that it seems pretty clearly fake right away. The idea that 1 guy who has no idea what he's doing and shouldn't be the one making these decisions would be able to go outside the proper way of doing things to just rush into a terrible contract he's done by himself and then lying about it, all so he can take credit but ending up signing away their rights to their own IP to such an extent they'd basically need a license from Amazon to make something is just utter nonsense.
chaos0xomega wrote: I didn't follow the rumor closely enough, is whats being claimed that someone at GW tried writing up their own contract and pushing it through without oversight?
More or less:
Spoiler:
I know plenty seem to have a pretty low opinion of GW and they've made many mistakes in the past, but not really anything that was that incompetent. It's such an absurd thing that it seems pretty clearly fake right away. The idea that 1 guy who has no idea what he's doing and shouldn't be the one making these decisions would be able to go outside the proper way of doing things to just rush into a terrible contract he's done by himself and then lying about it, all so he can take credit but ending up signing away their rights to their own IP to such an extent they'd basically need a license from Amazon to make something is just utter nonsense.
Indeed. And after the Malal drama back in the day, IP licensing agreements is something they’re usually really hot on.
chaos0xomega wrote: I didn't follow the rumor closely enough, is whats being claimed that someone at GW tried writing up their own contract and pushing it through without oversight?
More or less:
Spoiler:
That doesn't say the GW exec drafted the agreement though, it reads as though Amazon did, sent it to GW, and the exec signed it without reading it, which is a different but equally ridiculous scenario.
Is it possible that a GW exec did sign the contract on his own without review? Yeah, sure... but that wouldn't be a legally enforceable or binding contract without going through the full corporate due diligence process. Its a complete nothingburger, as they say. Just about every corporate constitution/by-laws contains provisions in it that make contracts signed by their employees and membership without following certain process invalid unless accompanied by waivers issued by another defined process, etc. Basically the signatory doesn't have the legal authority to enter into a legal agreement on behalf of the company until certain criteria is met and no court would hold a corporation as bound by a contract if it was signed without those criteria being met (unless it was found that the corporation avoided meeting those obligations knowingly with an intent to deceive, etc.). The standard for corporate contracting is for both parties to include those terms as part of the rider/Ts&Cs sent with their signature so both parties can verify that those criteria are satisfied and have entered into force to make the contract binding between parties. If these processes and requirements didn't exist then in theory even the lowliest doorman or janitor would be able to enter into legally binding agreements on behalf of a corporation without any sort of oversight or control over the process.
chaos0xomega wrote: From a licensing standpoint, GW has only two universes: Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy.
Horus Heresy and Warhammer 40,000 (and Necromunda and probably a bunch of others) are both *lines* within the Warhammer 40,000 universe, Age of Sigmar and The Old World/Warhammer Fantasy are both *lines* within the Warhammer Fantasy universe. Amazon basically has rights to everything GW.
Warhammer Fantasy is separate to AOS, GW are always very careful with naming those and they never call AOS 'Warhammer Fantasy' or any variant thereof. There's a reason why in the video game world CA can't use anything solely AOS for Total War Warhammer and Frontier have no rights to anything Fantasy. They're separate IPs from a licencing perspective and have always been so.
chaos0xomega wrote: I didn't follow the rumor closely enough, is whats being claimed that someone at GW tried writing up their own contract and pushing it through without oversight?
More or less:
Spoiler:
I know plenty seem to have a pretty low opinion of GW and they've made many mistakes in the past, but not really anything that was that incompetent. It's such an absurd thing that it seems pretty clearly fake right away. The idea that 1 guy who has no idea what he's doing and shouldn't be the one making these decisions would be able to go outside the proper way of doing things to just rush into a terrible contract he's done by himself and then lying about it, all so he can take credit but ending up signing away their rights to their own IP to such an extent they'd basically need a license from Amazon to make something is just utter nonsense.
What stuns me is how widely accepted such works of absolute and obvious fiction are. I know the community comes from all walks of life, but I would expect that there are enough people out there who work corporate jobs that would look at it and go "guys, this isn't really how the real world works" to call it into question before it reached the level of critical mass that we are even discussing the possibility of it being real. You wouldn't even really need to be working at a high level corporate job to know this, like its something that anyone whos worked professionally for a big business for longer than maybe 2-3 years would probably have enough of an inkling about to know that it was a load of bull.
chaos0xomega wrote: From a licensing standpoint, GW has only two universes: Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy.
Horus Heresy and Warhammer 40,000 (and Necromunda and probably a bunch of others) are both *lines* within the Warhammer 40,000 universe, Age of Sigmar and The Old World/Warhammer Fantasy are both *lines* within the Warhammer Fantasy universe. Amazon basically has rights to everything GW.
Warhammer Fantasy is separate to AOS, GW are always very careful with naming those and they never call AOS 'Warhammer Fantasy' or any variant thereof.
And yet they define their Warhammer IP as occupying only two "universes", one sci-fi, and one fantasy - with the fantasy universe including Age of Sigmar, Blood Bowl, The Old World, etc. Thats straight from their financial report. So clearly, they are not as separate as you believe it to be.
chaos0xomega wrote: From a licensing standpoint, GW has only two universes: Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy.
Horus Heresy and Warhammer 40,000 (and Necromunda and probably a bunch of others) are both *lines* within the Warhammer 40,000 universe, Age of Sigmar and The Old World/Warhammer Fantasy are both *lines* within the Warhammer Fantasy universe. Amazon basically has rights to everything GW.
Warhammer Fantasy is separate to AOS, GW are always very careful with naming those and they never call AOS 'Warhammer Fantasy' or any variant thereof.
And yet they define their Warhammer IP as occupying only two "universes", one sci-fi, and one fantasy - with the fantasy universe including Age of Sigmar, Blood Bowl, The Old World, etc. Thats straight from their financial report. So clearly, they are not as separate as you believe it to be.
Yeah from a strictly in-universe and non legal perspective, AOS and WHFB do inhabit the same universe. There's a difference between that casual/in-universe explanation and the way that GW legally licences it's properties. No company since AOS became a thing has received a 'Fantasy' licence from GW, making them capable of producing things in both settings.
chaos0xomega wrote: Thing is the financial report isn not a "in-universe perspective" and is in fact a legal document.
That document does not list there being a single license called "Warhammer 40,000" that consists of 40k, the Horus Heresy, Necromunda etc rights bundled together as you're making out.
chaos0xomega wrote: Thing is the financial report isn not a "in-universe perspective" and is in fact a legal document.
It's a shareholders report that simplifies some information to convey the simplified finance summaries to the shareholders. It's not an in-depth legal document outlining all of GW's IP elements and legal entities.
Heck the document often doesn't even split profits and sales down to specific models or groupings and keeps things at a very general "overview" level.
Again no one is saying that GW doesn't have "two universes" under their own IP properties. We are just saying that they generally have not and likely don't just straight out give a licence for "Warhammer 40K" that includes everything in that universe setting in one go. Not sure some agreements might end up like that, but you can bet it would be broken down into separate units.
To look at Rings of Power and Amazon, they did that without rights to the Silmarilion (which IIRC nobody has) just the footnotes and the appendices of the LoTR books. So despite telling stories that are fleshed out in that book, there are names they cannot drop because they don’t have the rights.
Another example is Marvel and x-men/spiderman/fantastic4. Same universe, but they were carved off and another entity given the rights to do stuff with them.
If GW wanted to parse out certain parts of their IP. Like a certain trilogy of books for adaptation. Anything not explicitly covered in the agreement would be hands off.
We’ll see how open a sandbox Amazon has to play in, but it is not necessarily the whole universe.
chaos0xomega wrote: What stuns me is how widely accepted such works of absolute and obvious fiction are. I know the community comes from all walks of life, but I would expect that there are enough people out there who work corporate jobs that would look at it and go "guys, this isn't really how the real world works" to call it into question before it reached the level of critical mass that we are even discussing the possibility of it being real. You wouldn't even really need to be working at a high level corporate job to know this, like its something that anyone whos worked professionally for a big business for longer than maybe 2-3 years would probably have enough of an inkling about to know that it was a load of bull.
a lot of people have debunked it as fake, or real thing without any consequences except for the exec who will have another training on how things work
so I don't know where it got big as I have seen nothing else but "this is fake as contracts don't work that way"
chaos0xomega wrote: Thing is the financial report isn not a "in-universe perspective" and is in fact a legal document.
That document does not list there being a single license called "Warhammer 40,000" that consists of 40k, the Horus Heresy, Necromunda etc rights bundled together as you're making out.
Again, thats not how licensing *works*. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. It is not, as you seem to believe, a supermarket where there are pre-packaged licenses sitting on the shelf and you can go push your shopping cart and put whatever you want into a basket and check out and have clearly defined ready to go whatevers when you get home.
There is not a defined list of licenses that exist and can be given out, they are essentially mutable and bespoke ad hoc concepts give out on a case by case basis subject to negotiation and determination between the licensor and licensee. GW can issue a single license covering the entirety of its IP across all brands, franchises, and universes. GW can issue a single license cover only one of its universes. GW can issue a single license covering only one of its games within one of those universes. GW can issue a single license covering only one of the factions within one of those games within one of those universes. GW can issue a single license covering only a single character from one of the factions within one of those games within one of those universes. GW can issue a single license covering only a single novel about one of the characters from one of the factions from one of those universes. GW can issue a single license which includes everything except a single character. GW can issue a single license which includes everything except a single book. Said license can apply only to t-shirts, or only to action figures, or only to coloring books, or only to video games. They can be limited to video games on a specific platform/console/system, or only video games of a specific genre, or video games under a specific project budget, or of a specific style, or of a specific setting or character or storyline. They can be literally whatever.
GW can issue whatever fething single license they want, because the terms and conditions and limitations and extents of any single license are subject to negotiation between the parties at the time the license is agreed to, and often well after its agreed to as well as there is often some degree of crossover between licenses, especially when it comes to works of fiction (Are Chaos Daemons part of the 40k license or Age of Sigmar/Warhammer Fantasy license? Does a license for Age of Sigmar include rights to reference and portray The End Times, or would that be applicable under a separate license? Does a 40k license include the right to portray any of the primarchs or is that part of a Horus Heresy license only? Which license do I need if I want to include a portrayal of the end of the Scouring and the formation of the Codex Astartes and Second Founding, etc?). Those specific terms often need to be negotiated or determined over time because its impossible to know about every weird corner case or weird situation - hence why licensor review and approval processes typically exist before you can publish anything at all involving a licensed property.
The financial report is very clear that GW divides its IP into two "universes" - one is Warhammer 40k, Necromunda, Horus Heresy, etc. The other is Age of Sigmar, Blood Bowl, and The Old World. This is a published statement of material fact on the public record - everything in a published financial report from a publicly traded company needs to be materially true statement, otherwise GW is essentially lying to its shareholders and can be prosecuted for fraud. If they make a statement declaring that their IP is categorized into two universes, that is a materially true statement reflecting the manner in which they organize and assess the business management of their intellectual property. That means that they consider these to be the two legally distinct "big umbrellas" around which they define their IP, whether its for licensing reasons, financial reporting, business planning or whatever doesn't really matter. That doesn't mean that they can only issue a license for these two universes, they are free to do whatever they want with it, but the point is that that is how they have structured, categorize, and manage their IP for the purposes of business operations.
The press releases and investor notifications that GW puts out through its investor portal are also published statements of material fact on the public record - they include investor guidance in them (hence why this press release indicates "The Company makes no change to its forecast for the 53 week period ending 2 June 2024."). Publishing false or misleading information in them could have legal consequences for GW in them. Knowing as we do that GW categorizes its IP into two fictional universes, one scifi and one fantasy, as they have indicated in the last several half-year and full-year reports, and that GW has announced that there is a deal to produce film and television in one of those "universes", with an option on the other "universe", GW could find themselves in a lot of trouble if a major investor took these statements to mean something other than what could be inferred using the consistent language that GW has otherwise used across its investor communications. If I, as an investor, am led to believe that Horus Heresy is a part of the Warhammer 40,000 universe based on GWs previous statements, and that the Amazon licensing deal includes production of Horus Heresy content owing to it being part of that same "universe" per aforementioned statements, and I make an investment into Games Workshop under the belief that a forthcoming Horus Heresy production will be extremely profitable to the company (and by extension myself) on that basis, and then discover that they were using confusing nomenclature and language and that Horus Heresy was never included in the licensing deal, I could then pursue Games Workshop for financial damages for making false or misleading statements that misrepresented statements of material fact which caused me to make investments under false beliefs of its potential future business activities.
All of that is to say that, yes, a license to produce content in the warhammer fantasy "universe" could very well be inclusive of Age of Sigmar. I'm sorry if you're one of those with a chip on their shoulder that thinks AoS ruined your childhood and looks to whatever arbitrary and vague straw you can grasp on to in an effort to try to "prove" that AoS is failing and will be shitcanned in preference of what you perceive to be a superior franchise or whatever, but the world of licensing is not quite so black and white.
chaos0xomega wrote: What stuns me is how widely accepted such works of absolute and obvious fiction are. I know the community comes from all walks of life, but I would expect that there are enough people out there who work corporate jobs that would look at it and go "guys, this isn't really how the real world works" to call it into question before it reached the level of critical mass that we are even discussing the possibility of it being real. You wouldn't
chaos0xomega wrote: What stuns me is how widely accepted such works of absolute and obvious fiction are. I know the community comes from all walks of life, but I would expect that there are enough people out there who work corporate jobs that would look at it and go "guys, this isn't really how the real world works" to call it into question before it reached the level of critical mass that we are even discussing the possibility of it being real. You wouldn't even really need to be working at a high level corporate job to know this, like its something that anyone whos worked professionally for a big business for longer than maybe 2-3 years would probably have enough of an inkling about to know that it was a load of bull.
a lot of people have debunked it as fake, or real thing without any consequences except for the exec who will have another training on how things work
so I don't know where it got big as I have seen nothing else but "this is fake as contracts don't work that way"
Makes one of us. I've seen many buying into it as real and few denouncing it. even really need to be working at a high level corporate job to know this, like its something that anyone whos worked professionally for a big business for longer than maybe 2-3 years would probably have enough of an inkling about to know that it was a load of bull.
a lot of people have debunked it as fake, or real thing without any consequences except for the exec who will have another training on how things work
so I don't know where it got big as I have seen nothing else but "this is fake as contracts don't work that way"
Makes one of us. I've seen many buying into it as real and few denouncing it. Was actually surprised to see the majority (if not totality) of dakka denounce it as bs from the getgo, I think that makes us smarter than the average!
chaos0xomega wrote: Thing is the financial report isn not a "in-universe perspective" and is in fact a legal document.
That document does not list there being a single license called "Warhammer 40,000" that consists of 40k, the Horus Heresy, Necromunda etc rights bundled together as you're making out.
Again, thats not how licensing *works*. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. It is not, as you seem to believe, a supermarket where there are pre-packaged licenses sitting on the shelf and you can go push your shopping cart and put whatever you want into a basket and check out and have clearly defined ready to go whatevers when you get home.
There is not a defined list of licenses that exist and can be given out, they are essentially mutable and bespoke ad hoc concepts give out on a case by case basis subject to negotiation and determination between the licensor and licensee. GW can issue a single license covering the entirety of its IP across all brands, franchises, and universes. GW can issue a single license cover only one of its universes. GW can issue a single license covering only one of its games within one of those universes. GW can issue a single license covering only one of the factions within one of those games within one of those universes. GW can issue a single license covering only a single character from one of the factions within one of those games within one of those universes. GW can issue a single license covering only a single novel about one of the characters from one of the factions from one of those universes. GW can issue a single license which includes everything except a single character. GW can issue a single license which includes everything except a single book. Said license can apply only to t-shirts, or only to action figures, or only to coloring books, or only to video games. They can be limited to video games on a specific platform/console/system, or only video games of a specific genre, or video games under a specific project budget, or of a specific style, or of a specific setting or character or storyline. They can be literally whatever.
GW can issue whatever fething single license they want, because the terms and conditions and limitations and extents of any single license are subject to negotiation between the parties at the time the license is agreed to, and often well after its agreed to as well as there is often some degree of crossover between licenses, especially when it comes to works of fiction (Are Chaos Daemons part of the 40k license or Age of Sigmar/Warhammer Fantasy license? Does a license for Age of Sigmar include rights to reference and portray The End Times, or would that be applicable under a separate license? Does a 40k license include the right to portray any of the primarchs or is that part of a Horus Heresy license only? Which license do I need if I want to include a portrayal of the end of the Scouring and the formation of the Codex Astartes and Second Founding, etc?). Those specific terms often need to be negotiated or determined over time because its impossible to know about every weird corner case or weird situation - hence why licensor review and approval processes typically exist before you can publish anything at all involving a licensed property.
The financial report is very clear that GW divides its IP into two "universes" - one is Warhammer 40k, Necromunda, Horus Heresy, etc. The other is Age of Sigmar, Blood Bowl, and The Old World. This is a published statement of material fact on the public record - everything in a published financial report from a publicly traded company needs to be materially true statement, otherwise GW is essentially lying to its shareholders and can be prosecuted for fraud. If they make a statement declaring that their IP is categorized into two universes, that is a materially true statement reflecting the manner in which they organize and assess the business management of their intellectual property. That means that they consider these to be the two legally distinct "big umbrellas" around which they define their IP, whether its for licensing reasons, financial reporting, business planning or whatever doesn't really matter. That doesn't mean that they can only issue a license for these two universes, they are free to do whatever they want with it, but the point is that that is how they have structured, categorize, and manage their IP for the purposes of business operations.
The press releases and investor notifications that GW puts out through its investor portal are also published statements of material fact on the public record - they include investor guidance in them (hence why this press release indicates "The Company makes no change to its forecast for the 53 week period ending 2 June 2024.". Publishing false or misleading information in them could have legal consequences for GW in them. Knowing as we do that GW categorizes its IP into two fictional universes, one scifi and one fantasy, as they have indicated in the last several half-year and full-year reports, and that GW has announced that there is a deal to produce film and television in one of those "universes", with an option on the other "universe", GW could find themselves in a lot of trouble if a major investor took these statements to mean something other than what could be inferred using the consistent language that GW has otherwise used across its investor communications. If I, as an investor, am led to believe that Horus Heresy is a part of the Warhammer 40,000 universe based on GWs previous statements, and that the Amazon licensing deal includes production of Horus Heresy content owing to it being part of that same "universe" per aforementioned statements, and I make an investment into Games Workshop under the belief that a forthcoming Horus Heresy production will be extremely profitable to the company (and by extension myself) on that basis, and then discover that they were using confusing nomenclature and language and that Horus Heresy was never included in the licensing deal, I could then pursue Games Workshop for financial damages for making false or misleading statements that misrepresented statements of material fact which caused me to make investments under false beliefs of its potential future business activities.
All of that is to say that, yes, a license to produce content in the warhammer fantasy "universe" could very well be inclusive of Age of Sigmar. I'm sorry if you're one of those with a chip on their shoulder that thinks AoS ruined your childhood and looks to whatever arbitrary and vague straw you can grasp on to in an effort to try to "prove" that AoS is failing and will be shitcanned in preference of what you perceive to be a superior franchise or whatever, but the world of licensing is not quite so black and white.
You are the one making out that they've given Amazon the license for "Warhammer 40,000" consisting of everything to do with 40k, the Horus Heresy, Necromunda and all the rest based on just the mention of "Warhammer 40,000" despite that not being how licensing works or how the financial report describes things as being considered regardless of you misconstruing it to claim so.
Somehow in your very own post you acknowledge that they have 2 universes split up into multiple different things in the report:
>The financial report is very clear that GW divides its IP into two "universes" - one is Warhammer 40k, Necromunda, Horus Heresy, etc. The other is Age of Sigmar, Blood Bowl, and The Old World.
But then still go on on to claim that the report says things like "the Horus Heresy is a part of the Warhammer 40,000 universe" despite that not being what it says. It says their sci-fi setting encompasses Warhammer 40,000, Horus Heresy and Necromunda. Not Warhammer 40,000 encompass Warhammer 40,000, Horus Heresy and Necromunda as you're claiming. It does not mention some overall setting consisting of the lot that's labelled as "Warhammer 40,000" as you're trying to make out.
Someone mentioned Hasbro as someone who could buy-out GW.
Hasbro is in no position to buy-out anyone. They just laid off 20% of their workforce and are losing money in the Toy category like crazy. This is a big turnaround from the previous few years with revenue increasing over time. They are currently prime targets for M&A themselves.
There is some discussion about Hasbro spinning off Wizards of the Coast and selling them off. No idea how true that is. However, over the last few years revenue has been up and Wizards has been a flagship.
chaos0xomega wrote: Makes one of us. I've seen many buying into it as real and few denouncing it. Was actually surprised to see the majority (if not totality) of dakka denounce it as bs from the getgo, I think that makes us smarter than the average!
or just much older so we already have had a chance to see such things for real
Easy E wrote: Someone mentioned Hasbro as someone who could buy-out GW.
Hasbro is in no position to buy-out anyone. They just laid off 20% of their workforce and are losing money in the Toy category like crazy. This is a big turnaround from the previous few years with revenue increasing over time. They are currently prime targets for M&A themselves.
There is some discussion about Hasbro spinning off Wizards of the Coast and selling them off. No idea how true that is. However, over the last few years revenue has been up and Wizards has been a flagship.
They wouldn't sell of Wizards, Magic is the only thing making them money. They're more likely to shift D&D, which is basically worthless to them.
Easy E wrote: Someone mentioned Hasbro as someone who could buy-out GW.
Hasbro is in no position to buy-out anyone. They just laid off 20% of their workforce and are losing money in the Toy category like crazy. This is a big turnaround from the previous few years with revenue increasing over time. They are currently prime targets for M&A themselves.
There is some discussion about Hasbro spinning off Wizards of the Coast and selling them off. No idea how true that is. However, over the last few years revenue has been up and Wizards has been a flagship.
If they spin off Wizards, they'll collapse within years or be consumed by another company that tries to turn them around. I do love watching companies do mad things like that in the name of 'shareholder value - although I was quite disappointed when Cadbury's sold off their drinks department to provide 'shareholder value' and then promptly made themselves small enough to be ripped apart by an American company while the government did nothing and lost one of the most culturally British companies.
GW don't split their IPs up into just two categories - 40k and Fantasy. They license very specific parts.
Cyanide Studio does not have the rights to Warhammer Fantasy. They have the rights to Blood Bowl. That is all they have the rights to. They cannot suddenly decide to make a general Warhammer Fantasy Battles game, or an Age of Sigmar game, or a Warcry game, or an Underworlds game, or a Trolls in the Pantry game, and so on.
Cyanide does have (or at least did have) the rights to Space Hulk, meaning they can make a Space Hulk game. They can't make a Horus Heresy game though because they have the rights to Space Hulk.
chaos0xomega wrote: Thing is the financial report isn not a "in-universe perspective" and is in fact a legal document.
That document does not list there being a single license called "Warhammer 40,000" that consists of 40k, the Horus Heresy, Necromunda etc rights bundled together as you're making out.
Again, thats not how licensing *works*. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. It is not, as you seem to believe, a supermarket where there are pre-packaged licenses sitting on the shelf and you can go push your shopping cart and put whatever you want into a basket and check out and have clearly defined ready to go whatevers when you get home.
There is not a defined list of licenses that exist and can be given out, they are essentially mutable and bespoke ad hoc concepts give out on a case by case basis subject to negotiation and determination between the licensor and licensee. GW can issue a single license covering the entirety of its IP across all brands, franchises, and universes. GW can issue a single license cover only one of its universes. GW can issue a single license covering only one of its games within one of those universes. GW can issue a single license covering only one of the factions within one of those games within one of those universes. GW can issue a single license covering only a single character from one of the factions within one of those games within one of those universes. GW can issue a single license covering only a single novel about one of the characters from one of the factions from one of those universes. GW can issue a single license which includes everything except a single character. GW can issue a single license which includes everything except a single book. Said license can apply only to t-shirts, or only to action figures, or only to coloring books, or only to video games. They can be limited to video games on a specific platform/console/system, or only video games of a specific genre, or video games under a specific project budget, or of a specific style, or of a specific setting or character or storyline. They can be literally whatever.
GW can issue whatever fething single license they want, because the terms and conditions and limitations and extents of any single license are subject to negotiation between the parties at the time the license is agreed to, and often well after its agreed to as well as there is often some degree of crossover between licenses, especially when it comes to works of fiction (Are Chaos Daemons part of the 40k license or Age of Sigmar/Warhammer Fantasy license? Does a license for Age of Sigmar include rights to reference and portray The End Times, or would that be applicable under a separate license? Does a 40k license include the right to portray any of the primarchs or is that part of a Horus Heresy license only? Which license do I need if I want to include a portrayal of the end of the Scouring and the formation of the Codex Astartes and Second Founding, etc?). Those specific terms often need to be negotiated or determined over time because its impossible to know about every weird corner case or weird situation - hence why licensor review and approval processes typically exist before you can publish anything at all involving a licensed property.
The financial report is very clear that GW divides its IP into two "universes" - one is Warhammer 40k, Necromunda, Horus Heresy, etc. The other is Age of Sigmar, Blood Bowl, and The Old World. This is a published statement of material fact on the public record - everything in a published financial report from a publicly traded company needs to be materially true statement, otherwise GW is essentially lying to its shareholders and can be prosecuted for fraud. If they make a statement declaring that their IP is categorized into two universes, that is a materially true statement reflecting the manner in which they organize and assess the business management of their intellectual property. That means that they consider these to be the two legally distinct "big umbrellas" around which they define their IP, whether its for licensing reasons, financial reporting, business planning or whatever doesn't really matter. That doesn't mean that they can only issue a license for these two universes, they are free to do whatever they want with it, but the point is that that is how they have structured, categorize, and manage their IP for the purposes of business operations.
The press releases and investor notifications that GW puts out through its investor portal are also published statements of material fact on the public record - they include investor guidance in them (hence why this press release indicates "The Company makes no change to its forecast for the 53 week period ending 2 June 2024.". Publishing false or misleading information in them could have legal consequences for GW in them. Knowing as we do that GW categorizes its IP into two fictional universes, one scifi and one fantasy, as they have indicated in the last several half-year and full-year reports, and that GW has announced that there is a deal to produce film and television in one of those "universes", with an option on the other "universe", GW could find themselves in a lot of trouble if a major investor took these statements to mean something other than what could be inferred using the consistent language that GW has otherwise used across its investor communications. If I, as an investor, am led to believe that Horus Heresy is a part of the Warhammer 40,000 universe based on GWs previous statements, and that the Amazon licensing deal includes production of Horus Heresy content owing to it being part of that same "universe" per aforementioned statements, and I make an investment into Games Workshop under the belief that a forthcoming Horus Heresy production will be extremely profitable to the company (and by extension myself) on that basis, and then discover that they were using confusing nomenclature and language and that Horus Heresy was never included in the licensing deal, I could then pursue Games Workshop for financial damages for making false or misleading statements that misrepresented statements of material fact which caused me to make investments under false beliefs of its potential future business activities.
All of that is to say that, yes, a license to produce content in the warhammer fantasy "universe" could very well be inclusive of Age of Sigmar. I'm sorry if you're one of those with a chip on their shoulder that thinks AoS ruined your childhood and looks to whatever arbitrary and vague straw you can grasp on to in an effort to try to "prove" that AoS is failing and will be shitcanned in preference of what you perceive to be a superior franchise or whatever, but the world of licensing is not quite so black and white.
You are the one making out that they've given Amazon the license for "Warhammer 40,000" consisting of everything to do with 40k, the Horus Heresy, Necromunda and all the rest based on just the mention of "Warhammer 40,000" despite that not being how licensing works or how the financial report describes things as being considered regardless of you misconstruing it to claim so.
Somehow in your very own post you acknowledge that they have 2 universes split up into multiple different things in the report:
>The financial report is very clear that GW divides its IP into two "universes" - one is Warhammer 40k, Necromunda, Horus Heresy, etc. The other is Age of Sigmar, Blood Bowl, and The Old World.
But then still go on on to claim that the report says things like "the Horus Heresy is a part of the Warhammer 40,000 universe" despite that not being what it says. It says their sci-fi setting encompasses Warhammer 40,000, Horus Heresy and Necromunda. Not Warhammer 40,000 encompass Warhammer 40,000, Horus Heresy and Necromunda as you're claiming. It does not mention some overall setting consisting of the lot that's labelled as "Warhammer 40,000" as you're trying to make out.
They have two universes, what they refer to them as is irrelevant. GW licensed a *universe* to Amazon, with the option to license another *universe* to them. What they refer to those universes as is largely irrelevant, because it's clear that one of those is their scifi universe and the other is their fantasy universe. And it's clear that those universes are inclusive of the things you don't believe them to be, BECAUSE THEY ONLY HAVE TWO UNIVERSES AND THOSE UNIVERSES ARE BY DEFAULT INCLUSUVE OF THOSE PROPERTIES PER GWs OWN STATEMENTS.
There is not a licenseable "universe" that is only Warhammer 40,000 and does not also include Horus Heresy. There is not a licenseable "universe" that is only Warhammer Fantasy Battle and not also inclusive of Age of Sigmar. They did not license Amazon the Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy "brand", "line", "franchise" or any other such term which could be used to denote that Amazon reveived a license for Warhammer 40k exclusive of Necromunda and Horus Heresy, and has an option for Warhammer Fantasy exclusive of Age of Sigmar, Blood Bowl, and The Old World, etc. Instead they used a very specific nomenclature which they have in essence legally defined to mean a broader range of properties than you believe them to be.
H.B.M.C. wrote: GW don't split their IPs up into just two categories - 40k and Fantasy. They license very specific parts.
Cyanide Studio does not have the rights to Warhammer Fantasy. They have the rights to Blood Bowl. That is all they have the rights to. They cannot suddenly decide to make a general Warhammer Fantasy Battles game, or an Age of Sigmar game, or a Warcry game, or an Underworlds game, or a Trolls in the Pantry game, and so on.
Cyanide does have (or at least did have) the rights to Space Hulk, meaning they can make a Space Hulk game. They can't make a Horus Heresy game though because they have the rights to Space Hulk.
He is. He's just not a heroic protagonist. Or even an anti-hero.
They license whatever they want or need to license to satisfy themselves. If they and Amazzon were interested in licensing the totality of their IPs, then they would do so. If they and Amazon thought the scifi portion of their IPs was a home run, but the fantasy portion was on shaker ground, then the deal for that would look a lot like what they announced. If they only wanted to license two specific game lines worth of IP, then the deal might look similar, but they wouldn't be using the term "universe" which in internal use had been established very clearly to refer to more than just Warhammer 40,000/Warhammer Fantasy proper.
You will note that it says "Blood Bowl fantasy football property" and not "Blood Bowl universe". There's a reason for that. Couldn't find one for the Space Hulk license, but I'm betting it didn't say they got a license for the "Space Hulk universe".
chaos0xomega wrote: You will note that it says "Blood Bowl fantasy football property" and not "Blood Bowl universe". There's a reason for that. Couldn't find one for the Space Hulk license, but I'm betting it didn't say they got a license for the "Space Hulk universe".
Yes. Because GW licenses out specific parts, not just "Warhammer Fantasy" and "40k".
I think this is were the rumour mentioned above comes from
as it looks like that GW did not just licensed the specific parts as they have done in the past (like for an Amazon Eisenhorn show, GW would license them Eisenhorn and nothing else) but the wording implies that Amazon has access to the full universe
and giving someone full access is something new and was not done by GW before
I imagine they got a generous lisence, thing is even if they COULD do the Horus Heresy..
WOULD they? the Heresy is a eistablished story with eistablished characters and Amazon might see that as being less desirable to do then a story told about a original character inqusitor with no eistablished baggae etc.
And GW might ALSO prefer that. because cross merchandising is better. If Amazon does horus Heresy series, sure it might boost over all intreast in the game, but original characters would allow GW to produce mini's based on those characters.
Hellebore wrote: bring the Warhammer 40,000 universe to screens, big and small.
And this suggests it is the whole 40k universe they signed over.
It doesn't suggest anything of the sort. Bringing one thing from 40k to the screen would be bringing the 40k "universe" to the world.
The WarCom article is not a contract, and GW's past actions and history with licensing things is perhaps a bit more telling than some rando article on an advertising website.
I agree with Brian that it is likely a very generous license, but the idea that because an article says "universe" that they suddenly have access to everyone and everything 40k is taking that a bit too far.
Hellebore wrote: bring the Warhammer 40,000 universe to screens, big and small.
And this suggests it is the whole 40k universe they signed over.
It doesn't suggest anything of the sort. Bringing one thing from 40k to the screen would be bringing the 40k "universe" to the world.
The WarCom article is not a contract, and GW's past actions and history with licensing things is perhaps a bit more telling than some rando article on an advertising website.
I agree with Brian that it is likely a very generous license, but the idea that because an article says "universe" that they suddenly have access to everyone and everything 40k is taking that a bit too far.
Im not talking about warcom, I'm talking about their investor release which is official communication from the company to its shareholders and not just marketing fluff for the fanbase:
chaos0xomega wrote: They have two universes, what they refer to them as is irrelevant. GW licensed a *universe* to Amazon, with the option to license another *universe* to them. What they refer to those universes as is largely irrelevant, because it's clear that one of those is their scifi universe and the other is their fantasy universe. And it's clear that those universes are inclusive of the things you don't believe them to be, BECAUSE THEY ONLY HAVE TWO UNIVERSES AND THOSE UNIVERSES ARE BY DEFAULT INCLUSUVE OF THOSE PROPERTIES PER GWs OWN STATEMENTS.
I get your point but does it matter how they precisely word it in a PR releases that's made to be widely distributed, read, and understood by a more general audience and not lawyers? In the end the contract should say exactly what is licenses, in which way, and what the options are no matter how GW once used those two universes in a report. The contract should explain what is meant with those terms specifically and how they are used to avoid any confusion. That's what counts and nobody here has seen that contract as far as I know, just some PR announcement.
Maybe they are using the phrase sci fi/Warhammer 40k universe in this announcement because 40k is big (the whole galaxy!) and they can set their story in any of the places; and not because the contract is exactly about the whole of 40k (all the lore and all the different games in that IP: that "universe") as once used in a GW document years ago? We still make fun of GW miniatures for proclaiming themselves the Porsche of the wargaming hobby, not because it was a legally binding eternal definition for any future contracts the company makes but because it was, more or less, an otiose statement in one of their biannual investor reports and ramblings.
Mario has it right, people shouldn't get too hung up on how right they are or how much they know about how IP licenses work, none of us have any of the relevant information required to say anything about what the deal between GW and Amazon is. And financial reports have LITERALLY no relevancy to the matter, and can be set aside.
kodos wrote: I think this is were the rumour mentioned above comes from
as it looks like that GW did not just licensed the specific parts as they have done in the past (like for an Amazon Eisenhorn show, GW would license them Eisenhorn and nothing else) but the wording implies that Amazon has access to the full universe
and giving someone full access is something new and was not done by GW before
But it's also probably not "here's the license, bye."
Its likely they have exclusive access to the whole thing (so GW can't turn around and say "yeah, you have 40K but we are giving Necromunda to Netflix) but with individual projects to be agreed as and when.
kodos wrote: I think this is were the rumour mentioned above comes from
as it looks like that GW did not just licensed the specific parts as they have done in the past (like for an Amazon Eisenhorn show, GW would license them Eisenhorn and nothing else) but the wording implies that Amazon has access to the full universe
and giving someone full access is something new and was not done by GW before
But it's also probably not "here's the license, bye."
Its likely they have exclusive access to the whole thing (so GW can't turn around and say "yeah, you have 40K but we are giving Necromunda to Netflix) but with individual projects to be agreed as and when.
Nobody on earth with a functioning brain, including everyone at GW and everyone at Amazon, would think a HH series would be the best starting point for a tv and movie cineverse, so here's what's true right now:
1. the first 40K tv show made in partnership with Amazon will not be a HH show
2. if there is ever a HH show it will probably be made in partnership with Amazon (barring a disastrous souring of the relationship between the two companies).
The Horus Heresy novel series has actually reached mainstream and widespread appeal and had a number of books hit various bestsellers lists and get reviews in major publications like the New York Times. You can't really say the same about any 40k series I am aware of.
I have likewise met many people who have had no interaction with warhammer, etc. beyond having read some or all of the Horus Heresy series.
The implication of these datapoints is that the market is better primed to accept a Horus Heresy tv series than it is a warhammer 40k series.
Design wise its "Marines VS Marines" and whilst there IS more in there, most of the other armies are still very much similar to 40K style armies and models. So its very much a copy of 1 faction in the 40K setting just repeated over.
Then you've got the fact that for a long time it was a super niche in being a Forgeworld Resin model line only and its only recently rolled more into mainstream marketing and plastics.
Then you've the fact that the books for it actually sell really well, which is an abnormal thing for the BL book series. They sell well to those well outside of the wargame hobby too.
HH succeeds almost despite itself and its likely a huge enigma that is probably impossible to answer quite "why" its doing so comparatively well and yet it keeps doing it.
So yeah I could see a HH brand production being green lit to tie into books and such already out there. It's not what fans of 40K/AoS/Old World would jump to thinking, but when you step back you realise that there's good arguments for it to come earlier on
Hellebore wrote: bring the Warhammer 40,000 universe to screens, big and small.
And this suggests it is the whole 40k universe they signed over.
It doesn't suggest anything of the sort. Bringing one thing from 40k to the screen would be bringing the 40k "universe" to the world.
The WarCom article is not a contract, and GW's past actions and history with licensing things is perhaps a bit more telling than some rando article on an advertising website.
I agree with Brian that it is likely a very generous license, but the idea that because an article says "universe" that they suddenly have access to everyone and everything 40k is taking that a bit too far.
There are many examples of press releases and articles from video game announcements and such where "universe" gets mentioned, in cases where they obviously only have the rights to specific things rather than the "universe" on the whole. Space Marine 2 was described as they'd be "bringing the Warhammer 40,000 universe to life like never before". Total War Warhammer was announced with them talking about the "deep and rich universe of Warhammer" and "We’ve always loved the Warhammer universe" but specifically referring to WHFB. Frontier when announcing Realms of Ruin Frontier said they had the license for the "Warhammer Age of Sigmar universe.", which apparently shouldn't be possible if GW only has two universes and there isn't a licensable universe of AoS but not including WHFB and Blood Bowl too...
Them saying they're making something in/for/with the "universe" just means it's something to do with that and they've licensed at least parts of the setting, it's absolutely not a term they've "legally defined to mean a broader range of properties" where because they said "Warhammer 40,000 universe" that inherently means they have the rights to the whole lot.
From a strategic perspective it's a terible idea to do HH.
It's not 40k. It's a prequel. It sends entirely the wrong message to the viewer. They will go into a Warhammer shop and wonder why the game isn't about Henry Cavill the emperor vs mark strong Horus. Who are these necrons and Tyranids? What's an Eldar.
It's a prequel and needs to be presented as such. It would be far too disruptive to GWs business model to position it as the start of Warhammer film media.
I think Eisenhorn has been thrown around a few times as a strong potential.
I do very much agree that its the kind of story that would adapt well and be less pressure on the budget. Big war events and scenes are very expensive and if you're doing live action they are even more expensive to create. Not impossible, but everything just steps up a level and you've already got expensive props and costumes to create.
Something like Eisenhorn can be much lower in budget, you might not even need a marine or anything. You can use a few series like that to build up experience with the setting; an inventory of sets, props, costumes and understanding of the mechanics of those costumes and CGI elements too.
Plus you can build up a brand and interest so that when you go all out for a huge 40K War of Marines VS Eldar; you've got the fans chomping to watch it and you've got a lot of pre-made assets and experience to draw from.
That's actually one good reason for GW to be "generous/bold" with the licence in terms of how much Amazon got to work with. The more one studio can work within the setting the more you can pool resources.
Overread wrote: Yeah HH is just really odd in almost every way
Design wise its "Marines VS Marines" and whilst there IS more in there, most of the other armies are still very much similar to 40K style armies and models. So its very much a copy of 1 faction in the 40K setting just repeated over.
This only matters to the minority of viewers who actually play the game. Most people, most *casuals* won't care that there aren't orks or aeldari or whatever faction they love and feel should be given equal screentime in the show. "Marines vs Marines" means nothing to general audiences, the majority of the media we consume is ultimately "humans vs humans", and marines are near-human enough to still be seen as equally relatable. This actually probably makes a HH series more preferable than a 40k based series, unless that 40k series is something like Eisenhorn (as was rumored in the past) or Warhammer Crime, etc. where its very zoomed in and focused on interactions and conflicts between humans with the occasional monster-of-the-weThen you've the fact that the books for it actually sell really well, which is an abnormal thing for the BL book series. They sell well to those well outside of the wargame hobby too.ek xeno/warp-spawned threat.
Then you'Then you've the fact that the books for it actually sell really well, which is an abnormal thing for the BL book series. They sell well to those well outside of the wargame hobby too.ve the fact that the books for it actually sell really well, which is an abnormal thing for the BL book series. They sell well to those well outside of the wargame hobby too.
HH novels are far more dramatic than the majority of Black Library fare. Having humans on both sides of the conflict and thus being able to relate to both sides and tell stories of both sides is what makes the setting compelling and interesting to the average person that isn't invested into certain factions and isn't mainly reading/viewing for fan-service. You can very easily get a Game of Thrones style narrative out of Horus Heresy (which is a setting very much like "Marines vs Marines", in that the majority of the protagonists and atagonists are humans - while there are evil eldritch gribblies in the background that pose an oft-mentioned but rarely seen (until later seasons) existential threat but are secondary to the primary conflict posed by the participants in the ongoing civil/succession war that occupies most of the primary drama).
Most (not all, but most) 40k books are very one-sided - many (most?) are essentially either human vs alien or human vs possessed extra-dimensional human. One side in the conflict is thus very approachable and relatable, the other side is very... not, and often you don't even get POV or perspective from the other side, its told 100% from the perspective of the good guy humans - which works for books appealing to niche audiences but is harder to do for modern film and television audiences without introducing outside dynamics (often soci-political or philosophical in
nature, or involving heavy amounts of inter-personal conflict between main characters... you know the kind of stuff that results in certain people accusing something of pushing a woke agenda, when in reality its just there because without it there would be no real substance to the film or show and it would just be hours of explosions and gunfire without a plot). Yes, there are alien/bad-guy POV books and stories in black library, but these have even more limited appeal, the characters are protagonists are often difficult to relate to and require too much bac, etc. The costs of doing xenos POV is also going to be substantially higher than the cost of doing human-centric storytelling, as the costuming, sfx, and set design requirements gre much higher, whereas putting a dude in some robes or a fancy greatcoat and armored breastplate and pauldrons (ala Eisenhorn) is much lower cost. Even Space Marines could be done relatively cheaply, costuming them could be done at scale by mass producing the armor bits (ala stormtroopers and such in star wars). Scaling space marines as giants compared to regular humans is relatively easy to pull of with camera angles and relatively basic editing, though that cost factor also potentially works against HH being the starting point because representing the scale of the conflict and the size of the battles, etc. would require a lot of investment.
Thats not to say that a 40k based human vs alien/chaos storyline couldn't workr Lord of the Rings is an example of a wildly popular fantasy epic that is relatively one-sided in its storytelling perspective against a largely unrelateable and rarely present central villain and his more present but still not very relatable henchmen - but even then you still had "the human element" present in the conflict via characters like Boromir, Saruman, Denethor, etc. Going back to what I said earlier though, it seems likely that something more akin to "Eisenhorn" will be the starting point for this. Its a very personal story that allows for the character development and interpersonal drama and conflcit that modern audiences expect and demand while also still allowing for an explanation of enough of the 40k setting to familiarize mainstream audiences with a broad enough swathe of it to open doors for future storytelling. More importantly, it does so at relatively low cost as you don't have to deal with constant massive set-piece battle scenes, huge casts of characters representing all the various dramatis personae involved across 18 legions of space marines + all the other organizations and players involved, nor a huge and diverse array of environments and settings. Each book in the Eisenhorn tril
gy (and subsequent spin-offs) could reasonably be adapted into a season of a series and you're dealing with a reasonable handful of primary and supporting characters that are mostly human, a reasonable number of extras, a handful of major set/environment changes, and a reasonable amount of necessary special effects and complex costuming requirements to represent some of the more out-there characters, etc.o
If money was no object though? A Horus Heresy series would probably blow up bigly and become a cultural phenomenon ala Star Wars, Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, etc. As long as it was well edited and avoided repeating the mistakes of the book series and sprawling out into a mess of far too many books that stretch the plot far too thin and muddy up the chronology and sequence of events which are occurring. ,aound knowledge to get a solid understanding and grasp of - these aren't off the table, but they aren't "phase 1" stories, this is content that GW/Amazon would explore after they've made 40k/HH/whatever enough of a household name that audiences have an understanding of what an Aeldari or a Drukhari is and why they are so concerned about their souls.
Animation issues aside, the Orks'n'Guard story that opened Warhammer+ was pretty good. I reckon that mix would again be good for an opening salvo for the big screen.
chaos0xomega wrote: The Horus Heresy novel series has actually reached mainstream and widespread appeal and had a number of books hit various bestsellers lists and get reviews in major publications like the New York Times. You can't really say the same about any 40k series I am aware of.
I have likewise met many people who have had no interaction with warhammer, etc. beyond having read some or all of the Horus Heresy series.
The implication of these datapoints is that the market is better primed to accept a Horus Heresy tv series than it is a warhammer 40k series.
Are you sending posts into the future from a basement in 1995?
Book sales are not a relevant metric of popularity in the year of our Khorne 2023. There were ~25,000 people playing Rogue Trader an hour ago. ~12,000 playing Darktide. A book gets on the NYT list with 5k to 10k sales. Another number I have seen you quote in other discussions is the 700K+ members of the 40K reddit.
I frankly don't believe your anecdotal evidence of meeting people who only read the HH series, but even if that bizarre claim accurately represents your experience it's anecdotal.
A story about humans fighting aliens is not "one-sided" in any meaningfully damaging way by the standards of "modern audiences". Independence Day was not considered one-sided, nor was Jurassic Park, etc. But that doesn't really matter yet, because it won't be a xenos-centric story. It will be Chaos-centric. That said, about half of the xenos races would be more affordable to render than Marines. Aeldari/Drukhari/Tau/GSC are just actors in cosplay. Nids/Orks/Necrons would require CGI (Necrons being the most cost-effective to do).
The Horus Heresy is not a good story in its expanded form, and is only interesting to us because we started out as 40K fans and had a built-in curiosity about how things in the universe we love got the way they are. It's literally trivia for us to memorize. To an unfamiliar audience the HH narrative would be an absolute shambles; a bunch of barely-differentiated really big guys, who lead humanity's armies of slightly smaller big guys, in the name of the biggest guy of all (who doesn't really seem that special or capable, despite everyone saying how special he is) on a vaguely-delineated mission to seize control of the galaxy from the evil clutches of... other humans. There is a magic evil force working against them, but nobody seems to worry about it and people in power barely acknowledge its existence.
The scale is also impossible for TV. Rings of Power, the most expensive show ever made, couldn't even achieve armies that look larger than the number of people you could dump out of a suburban Best Buy on Boxing Day. Doing that x10 and errybody is in power armour is just a non-starter for TV. It could only happen if they end up doing movies.
Eisenhorn is the odds-on favourite for adaptation. The Crowl books would be doable but are not as natural an intro as E. A Guardsman story could work, but they probably don't want a military POV right off the bat. A brand new Inquisitor could also be the move, but would probably disappoint some of the fans, who would be denied their maximum potential amount of "I Recognize That!!"
Hellebore wrote: bring the Warhammer 40,000 universe to screens, big and small.
And this suggests it is the whole 40k universe they signed over.
It doesn't suggest anything of the sort. Bringing one thing from 40k to the screen would be bringing the 40k "universe" to the world.
The WarCom article is not a contract, and GW's past actions and history with licensing things is perhaps a bit more telling than some rando article on an advertising website.
I agree with Brian that it is likely a very generous license, but the idea that because an article says "universe" that they suddenly have access to everyone and everything 40k is taking that a bit too far.
There are many examples of press releases and articles from video game announcements and such where "universe" gets mentioned, in cases where they obviously only have the rights to specific things rather than the "universe" on the whole. Space Marine 2 was described as they'd be "bringing the Warhammer 40,000 universe to life like never before". Total War Warhammer was announced with them talking about the "deep and rich universe of Warhammer" and "We’ve always loved the Warhammer universe" but specifically referring to WHFB. Frontier when announcing Realms of Ruin Frontier said they had the license for the "Warhammer Age of Sigmar universe.", which apparently shouldn't be possible if GW only has two universes and there isn't a licensable universe of AoS but not including WHFB and Blood Bowl too...
Them saying they're making something in/for/with the "universe" just means it's something to do with that and they've licensed at least parts of the setting, it's absolutely not a term they've "legally defined to mean a broader range of properties" where because they said "Warhammer 40,000 universe" that inherently means they have the rights to the whole lot.
While true on the gaming part, I will say that those companies never said they had ‘exclusive rights’ to those settings either.
Doesn’t make a difference in the sense of Frontier having fantasy suddenly, but just to add for clarity.
(I.e. other companies can still make AoS games (though they may have certain genre exclusivity))
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also as to the above. I know someone who just read Heresy, till they later got into the mainline. But it was HH that got them.
But yes, it’s a very anecdotal situation for the odd person etc
Thinking out loud, the unification wars on Terra would be a good setting. No real prior knowledge needed, post apocalyptic setting well understood, barbarians, thunder warriors and introduction of space marines.
Sunno wrote: Thinking out loud, the unification wars on Terra would be a good setting. No real prior knowledge needed, post apocalyptic setting well understood, barbarians, thunder warriors and introduction of space marines.
Not going to happen. Doesn't draw new people into the world of Warhammer and has no draw for existing fans of Warhammer. Literally a lose lose.
I agree that something a bit more focussed down on a small group of likeable and relatable characters would be a good place to start.
On that basis I think the Cain stories would be a good entry point. While they are set against larger conflicts, the actual stories focus more on Cain and a small group of supporting characters. Many of the stories are against Chaos forces, which are just humans in different costumes.
It is also deliberately less grimdark and has loads of opportunity for levity, even though the grinding grimness of the setting, eldrich horror of cult activity and the general horrors of eternal conflict can very easily be hung around the place. Cain also meets up wit basically every faction within the Imperium and beyond at one point or other.
And then they can blow a nice chunk of budget on the occasional mass battle sequence when things get a bit hairy for the 597th.
I have great fondness for Space: Above and Beyond and the newer BSG in terms of military sci-fi that have a similar feel, but were also able to do a lot around the periphery of actual combat.
HH has great potential, given the right time and budget to portray its scope.
I believe people strongly underestimate the marketability of primarchs in general, but especially in the context of a serialized format like this. They are a great premise to draw in people and keep them engaged, as they effectively work like a boy band, only with more personality traits and facets to explore and identify with. And that's not even taking into account their downfall.
It's probably as close to the ideal source material as it gets.
Flinty wrote: I agree that something a bit more focussed down on a small group of likeable and relatable characters would be a good place to start.
So what you're saying is we should have something like a squad of Ultramarines exchange banter as they walk across a foggy wasteland on some kind of mission, and get picked off one by one by unseen assailants? It's a classic movie plot and should go down well with audiences. I have a good feeling about it.
BertBert wrote: I believe people strongly underestimate the marketability of primarchs in general, but especially in the context of a serialized format like this.
Might not be the best time for Primarchs. I hear superhero movies aren't doing so hot of late.
I hear superhero movies aren't doing so hot of late.
That's just Marvel, really. Invincible and The Boys did extremely well, which are thematically a lot closer to 40k. People are just sick of the sterile, sanitized designed-by-commitee kind of super heroes.
I hear superhero movies aren't doing so hot of late.
That's just Marvel, really. Invincible and The Boys did extremely well, which are thematically a lot closer to 40k. People are just sick of the sterile, sanitized designed-by-commitee kind of super heroes.
DC isn't doing great either and they heavily leaned into doom and gloom vibes for the last ten or so years. I'd be concerned that general audiences might find demi-god cardboard cutouts duking it out at let-the-galaxy-burn-o'clock too derivative of something they haven't been thrilled about before.
I happen to think of a lot of what we got in the recent past as already sanitized and adjusted to fit a broader audience. Who knows, it seems to have worked for GW so far and they might try it some more with their Amazon deal. I'm just not convinced that it's the right way to go about it.
Flinty wrote: I agree that something a bit more focussed down on a small group of likeable and relatable characters would be a good place to start.
So what you're saying is we should have something like a squad of Ultramarines exchange banter as they walk across a foggy wasteland on some kind of mission, and get picked off one by one by unseen assailants? It's a classic movie plot and should go down well with audiences. I have a good feeling about it.
Not as such. Ultramarines are neither likeable nor particularly relatable as giant hypnoindoctrinated genetically and bionically enhanced supersoldiers with their own agendas. That's one of the reasons why I think a marine focus might not pay off in the first instance. Having Marines as just bigger humans with human problems kind does them a disservice in the potential complexity of character development. Marines are not human. However they are introduced into the film/series world will also stick and be the baseline for all other entries. I would much prefer to have them as occasional drop in characters that have a massive impact in a short time, rather than be the core of a series. Kinda like their supposed military doctrine
I still firmly believe that Astartes is the pinnacle of Marine representatio in media
In terms of the plot, I mean a 40k remix of dog soldiers would be amazing! Otherwise, that kind of thing is somewhat overdone. However, in terms of an introductory thing to the setting, maybe a familiar plot is a useful crutch. I mean origin stories are all basically the same, but they allow the main character to get fleshed out without the audience really needing to think about the plot. Its more important to get the actors established in the characters. For 40k, the setting is almost one of the characters and needs established in the same way.
Geifer wrote: I'd be concerned that general audiences might find demi-god cardboard cutouts duking it out at let-the-galaxy-burn-o'clock too derivative of something they haven't been thrilled about before.
But here's the thing: I don't believe that's the meat of HH, only the final stages. Here's a rough sketch.
You start with one initial protagonist, a young Horus, and show his origins on Cthonia. This leaves plenty of space to portray the brutal reality of the little people in the Imperium languishing in ruined hive cities on an industrially exploited planet. With that crucial part of the overall setting established, you can explore Horus' life among the gangsters as a formidable – but still fairly young – primarch, until he is found and brought before the emperor. Big reveal and wow-moment with the first Space Marines and daddy Emp at the end of the 2h pilot episode: Horus is the first of his long-lost sons to be rediscovered. The great crusade, Terra being earth (duh), the role of Mars and the Mechanicum are established. Horus is raised and trained to fulfil his duty to the Emperor.
Gauge the audience reaction and take it from there. Show Horus in action for an episode, with snippets of the Emperor noticing Russ on Fenris, eventually shifting focus entirely to that plot. Vikings time! Emperor has his eating and fighting contest with Russ, the next primarch enters the ranks. Personal conflict between Horus and Russ, ending the plot on a note of high tension.
Now, with this general structure you can stretch the series for how ever long you want. Every time a new primarch is introduced, you get a fresh locale with a different theme to explore. You had Mad Max dystopia with horus, Space Vikings with Russ and a bunch more to keep things fresh. Want Space batman? Kurze is there. Want a hopeful redemption arc for a doomed planet and society? Fulgrim. Jungle Deathworld with Alien horrors? Lion El Johnson. Throw a curve ball on the entire narrative? Alpharius was there all along. Gladiatorial battles? Angron. Spend more or less time on each depending on how much you can do with their origin.
Not only do you have this immense variety in locales and themes, but you also get to add a new personality into the established roster, introducing new tensions, alliances and drama.
Once you have everything in place, you can start tackling milestones like Ullanor to establish Orks, and Horus becoming warmaster. And so on and so forth...
Now, with this general structure you can stretch the series for how ever long you want. Every time a new primarch is introduced, you get a fresh locale with a different theme to explore. You had Mad Max dystopia with horus, Space Vikings with Russ and a bunch more to keep things fresh. Want Space batman? Kurze is there. Want a hopeful redemption arc for a doomed planet and society? Fulgrim. Jungle Deathworld with Alien horrors? Lion El Johnson. Throw a curve ball on the entire narrative? Alpharius was there all along. Gladiatorial battles? Angron. Spend more or less time on each depending on how much you can do with their origin.
Describing the same thing five different ways and being like, "people will eat up this variety!"
Every primarch is the same thing, a big conflicted traditional masculine fighting guy. You're kinda just advertising your own hyper-narrow interests.
Describing the same thing five different ways and being like, "people will eat up this variety!"
Every primarch is the same thing, a big conflicted traditional masculine fighting guy. You're kinda just advertising your own hyper-narrow interests.
People have been eating up the concept of Space Marines well enough for decades, so there must be something to it.
I'm also not more or less interested in HH than say Eisenhorn, so your conclusion is quite off the mark. All I'm saying is that HH is structured in a way that would lend itself really well to a serialized format.
I think I’d prefer Marines to be used super sparingly.
The story of the Imperium is the story of smelly little plebs like you and I. Some become Inquisitors, or Lords of Terra. Some Guardsmen become Legends. Most die in horrific ways on far off battlefields, or anonymously in the depths of a Hive, at the work station that’s been their destiny since birth.
People have been eating up the concept of Space Marines well enough for decades, so there must be something to it.
I thought we were more focused on what would have the most widespread appeal, not what would appeal to people who are already primed to enjoy military sci-fi (or are already 40K) fans.
When you look at something like GoT that made the jump from nerd-niche to culture-defining it has a bunch of elements that are absent or shoehorned into HH. Not the least of which is actual women characters. Significant difference between that and ~20 Big Boys Bashing (with a few bit-parts for women humans who never last longer than a season, and are usually only there to be acted upon by the Primarchs and Marines).
I'm also not more or less interested in HH than say Eisenhorn, so your conclusion is quite off the mark. All I'm saying is that HH is structured in a way that would lend itself really well to a serialized format.
No kidding, a series of books would translate well into a series of TV seasons/movies?
Since I'm already a 40K fan, who has read HH novels, I'd be right there with you in terms of personally enjoying a HH TV show. But it's a poor choice for a debut series that everyone will be hoping injects the deep and rewarding 40K lore into mainstream culture consciousness in an unprecedented way.
It’s not going to be HH. The announcement is clear, they’ve licenced the 40k universe with the option for fantasy. HH is not 40k. Peeps who licence HH don’t get Eldar, peeps who licence 40K don’t get Horus.
Since I'm already a 40K fan, who has read HH novels, I'd be right there with you in terms of personally enjoying a HH TV show. But it's a poor choice for a debut series that everyone will be hoping injects the deep and rewarding 40K lore into mainstream culture consciousness in an unprecedented way.
I reckon the exposure of being aired on Amazon Prime and starring A-list actors will do most of the heavy lifting in that regard, as long as the quality of the series is up to par.
When you look at something like GoT that made the jump from nerd-niche to culture-defining it has a bunch of elements that are absent or shoehorned into HH. Not the least of which is actual women characters. Significant difference between that and ~20 Big Boys Bashing (with a few bit-parts for women humans who never last longer than a season, and are usually only there to be acted upon by the Primarchs and Marines).
Game of Thrones is a great example. It reached mainstream appeal due to a combination of a well crafted setting and plot, a fantastic cast and high production quality. Once the ties to the original plot were largely severed, the show writers left to their own devices and entire plot points abandoned or left out, the show's popularity plummetted in a matter of episodes. I'm not sure how big of a factor having "actual women characters" is, because I'm not aware of any related data, but dismissing HH for the reason that it's mostly about men doing war and having daddy issues strikes me as negligent to say the least.
What it comes down to, I guess, is what GW wants to project in their first big outing, and my hunch is that it's not some slice of life story about the odd guards(wo)man, but rather something related to dudes in power armour.
MaxT wrote: It’s not going to be HH. The announcement is clear, they’ve licenced the 40k universe with the option for fantasy. HH is not 40k. Peeps who licence HH don’t get Eldar, peeps who licence 40K don’t get Horus.
Go back through the last few pages of discussion, as has been argued to death, GW has a specific internal definition for what "universe" means which is inclusuve of more than you realize.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote: Primarchs would be a good fit for a "What If..." series, with the Emperor scrying futures.
I personally think that they're laying the groundwork for an Indomitus Crusade series.
Heavy doubt. Maybe down the line but it would be too expensive to start with as sn unproven property and requires too much background knowledge to understand it properly - it would work after audiences had enough exposure to the setting, players, and politics via other series but not as a starting point for newcomers.
Just because primarchs are popular with wargaming fans doesn't mean they are a good choice for leading GW into tv.
40k isn't primarchs and GWs product strategy isn't about them.
It would be incredibly short-sighted to do that and it would position their product lines at odds with their tv advertising.
It's very dumb to make a superhero space opera as the only visible advertising for your product lines for them not to match up with it.
Unless gw decides to radically shift their strategy and make the HH the tent pole of their business and turn 40k into a specialist game, it's not a smart move.
Now that theyve move to primaris almost none of the 40k product line is compatible with or represents the Horus heresy. Having that as your main product when your tv show is not matching any of it is really stupid.
What I expect to happen is what they did with game of thrones.
Make a 40k show and then later a Horus heresy prequel.
40k isn't Horus heresy and it is absurd to market it that way
They just need something that doesn't drown the layman with obscure in-universe terms from the get-go. Babble about the Adeptus Mechanicus and Omnissiah will just clock a lot of people out if they don't get eased into it.
Shakalooloo wrote: They just need something that doesn't drown the layman with obscure in-universe terms from the get-go. Babble about the Adeptus Mechanicus and Omnissiah will just clock a lot of people out if they don't get eased into it.
That’s…that’s Eisenhorn.
To the man in the street? It’s a sci-fi noire. By the end? You’ve some inkling of the wider horror of existence.
Gotrek and Felix would be a great one to start but I guarantee they will do 40k first.
This first show is about setting the scene and showing the general public that this is an interesting universe to want to get in to. It won't necessarily be "for the fans". They've already got us suckers paying for tiny plastic men.
Having the rights to the Horus Heresy isn't about making a dedicated HH TV show, it's about having the flexibility to have flashback scenes that deal with that time period should it be relevant to the story being told.
No-one voluntarily gets themselves into a Rings of Power / Silmarilion situation. The idea GW would approach someone the size of Amazon with "hey you can license this fictional universe, but not the backstory to it" is laughable. It means if they make a big success of it someone else could come in and get the rights to the prequel series.
They are different settings in terms of the actual games but they are very much the same setting by any other definition.
Yes, when they license out video games they often slice off bits and pieces and sell non-exclusive licenses, but assuming that model caries forward into how they're doing TV licensing... is highly unlikely.
Flinty wrote: Not as such. Ultramarines are neither likeable nor particularly relatable as giant hypnoindoctrinated genetically and bionically enhanced supersoldiers with their own agendas. That's one of the reasons why I think a marine focus might not pay off in the first instance. Having Marines as just bigger humans with human problems kind does them a disservice in the potential complexity of character development. Marines are not human. However they are introduced into the film/series world will also stick and be the baseline for all other entries. I would much prefer to have them as occasional drop in characters that have a massive impact in a short time, rather than be the core of a series. Kinda like their supposed military doctrine
I'm in full agreement, but that ship has sailed. Black Library was built on the back of humanized Marines as much as Dan Abnett's blatant disregard for the feel of the setting. I don't think there's any going back after two decades of exposure to that, not the least because the humanization was a deliberate act to allow authors to better reach a wider audience and write to literary standards. A show or movie is going to need the exact same methods letting Marine characters carry a narrative if they are to feature prominently.
And call me cynical, but I just can't imagine that GW wouldn't want the spotlight on Marines.
Geifer wrote: I'd be concerned that general audiences might find demi-god cardboard cutouts duking it out at let-the-galaxy-burn-o'clock too derivative of something they haven't been thrilled about before.
But here's the thing: I don't believe that's the meat of HH, only the final stages. Here's a rough sketch.
You start with one initial protagonist, a young Horus, and show his origins on Cthonia. This leaves plenty of space to portray the brutal reality of the little people in the Imperium languishing in ruined hive cities on an industrially exploited planet. With that crucial part of the overall setting established, you can explore Horus' life among the gangsters as a formidable – but still fairly young – primarch, until he is found and brought before the emperor. Big reveal and wow-moment with the first Space Marines and daddy Emp at the end of the 2h pilot episode: Horus is the first of his long-lost sons to be rediscovered. The great crusade, Terra being earth (duh), the role of Mars and the Mechanicum are established. Horus is raised and trained to fulfil his duty to the Emperor.
Gauge the audience reaction and take it from there. Show Horus in action for an episode, with snippets of the Emperor noticing Russ on Fenris, eventually shifting focus entirely to that plot. Vikings time! Emperor has his eating and fighting contest with Russ, the next primarch enters the ranks. Personal conflict between Horus and Russ, ending the plot on a note of high tension.
Now, with this general structure you can stretch the series for how ever long you want. Every time a new primarch is introduced, you get a fresh locale with a different theme to explore. You had Mad Max dystopia with horus, Space Vikings with Russ and a bunch more to keep things fresh. Want Space batman? Kurze is there. Want a hopeful redemption arc for a doomed planet and society? Fulgrim. Jungle Deathworld with Alien horrors? Lion El Johnson. Throw a curve ball on the entire narrative? Alpharius was there all along. Gladiatorial battles? Angron. Spend more or less time on each depending on how much you can do with their origin.
Not only do you have this immense variety in locales and themes, but you also get to add a new personality into the established roster, introducing new tensions, alliances and drama.
Once you have everything in place, you can start tackling milestones like Ullanor to establish Orks, and Horus becoming warmaster. And so on and so forth...
The question here is, how many hours/seasons are you going to spend on Great Crusade character drama (including eighteen origin stories for the Primarchs alone) and genocide of the week episodes before you get to the actual Horus Heresy? I'll be brief since it's been discussed already, but while you have a lot of books and a set series of events that make planning out the whole thing easier, you're suggesting that the first outing of as of yet unproven live-action 40k should be a multi-season endeavor revolving around things that are largely myth in the actual 40k setting and have considerable stylistic differences to the main setting. That would require Amazon to commit long term and, as has already been mentioned, does not provide GW with the kind of marketing they are likely after.
I just don't find it realistic to start with the prequel even if in terms of narrative structure it could be considered a sound choice. There's no real reason to do that before establishing the actual 40k setting in a less ambitious format to prove it can find an audience first.
Hellebore wrote: Just because primarchs are popular with wargaming fans doesn't mean they are a good choice for leading GW into tv.
40k isn't primarchs and GWs product strategy isn't about them.
It would be incredibly short-sighted to do that and it would position their product lines at odds with their tv advertising.
It's very dumb to make a superhero space opera as the only visible advertising for your product lines for them not to match up with it.
40k has been turned into saturday cartoon with big heroes squaring off against big baddies in repeated cycle and it's the big names that decide fate of galaxy.
It might not have been space opera before but now is as players wanted their "advancing storyline" and GW gave it(while also maintaining status quo).
So adventures of Guilliman and Lion in 40k would be feasible
Whatever it is marines are in in some way or other.
deano2099 wrote: Having the rights to the Horus Heresy isn't about making a dedicated HH TV show, it's about having the flexibility to have flashback scenes that deal with that time period should it be relevant to the story being told.
No-one voluntarily gets themselves into a Rings of Power / Silmarilion situation. The idea GW would approach someone the size of Amazon with "hey you can license this fictional universe, but not the backstory to it" is laughable. It means if they make a big success of it someone else could come in and get the rights to the prequel series.
They are different settings in terms of the actual games but they are very much the same setting by any other definition.
Yes, when they license out video games they often slice off bits and pieces and sell non-exclusive licenses, but assuming that model caries forward into how they're doing TV licensing... is highly unlikely.
I find the "What if they need a flashback scene?" a bit absurd. The answer to that would just be to not write something that requires a flashback to 10,000 years before 40k - it's something dozens upon dozens of 40k stories have managed to do without issue, there's no reason a TV show would be a different situation. The Horus Heresy is a vastly different setting and 40k stories work perfectly fine without needing to know more than the very basics of it, and even that isn't directly relevant very often.
Just because it's Amazon and they're a big company doesn't mean GW are going to just not bother approaching things cautiously either, they have no idea how its actually going to turn out at this point and its clearly a big new thing for them. Rushing straight into handing over the license to everything right away wouldn't be a good idea.
1. An arc using new characters set within the existing universe.
2. An arc using pre existing characters from minis, background and or novels.
1. Is the path of least resistance. For various reasons.
All we can be sure of is that our favourite pieces of lore WILL be butchered in order to fit in with the magic of TV production.
I would disagree. Adapting a novel is old hat for the tv/film industry. There’s a thousand productions every year that do it. Handing them Eisenhorn can saying “crack on” is the easiest path.
I agree with MaxT. If the point is to widen appeal beyond the current fan base then the universe itself needs to be established first. I think it would be easier to use established characters first as that gives the fan base a bit of nostalgia and lets them ease into it more. Time later to expand into wholly new stories and characters.
I wil certainly keep an open mind, and I’m usually easy to please, it still really hoping the first things out the gate aren’t crap.
The whole "we need to establish the 40k setting, HH is to stylistically different and is bad marksting" bit hilarious. The HH novel series has been the second best marketing GW has had, behind Total War Warhammer. As I've said befire, I've met a lot of people who don't engage with the hobby who do engage with those books (or TWW). Ive likewise met many people who found their way to 40k/AoS via those avenues. GW has/is building itself as a lifestyle hobby, it's goal is to have its customers engaging with multiple product lines. It's expectation is that people playing one game will be playing multiple. I very much doubt that it's concerned that a HH series will market HH more heavily than it will 40k proper and result in more customers playing a "secondary game" than a primary one or whatever.
deano2099 wrote: Having the rights to the Horus Heresy isn't about making a dedicated HH TV show, it's about having the flexibility to have flashback scenes that deal with that time period should it be relevant to the story being told.
No-one voluntarily gets themselves into a Rings of Power / Silmarilion situation. The idea GW would approach someone the size of Amazon with "hey you can license this fictional universe, but not the backstory to it" is laughable. It means if they make a big success of it someone else could come in and get the rights to the prequel series.
They are different settings in terms of the actual games but they are very much the same setting by any other definition.
Yes, when they license out video games they often slice off bits and pieces and sell non-exclusive licenses, but assuming that model caries forward into how they're doing TV licensing... is highly unlikely.
I find the "What if they need a flashback scene?" a bit absurd. The answer to that would just be to not write something that requires a flashback to 10,000 years before 40k - it's something dozens upon dozens of 40k stories have managed to do without issue, there's no reason a TV show would be a different situation. The Horus Heresy is a vastly different setting and 40k stories work perfectly fine without needing to know more than the very basics of it, and even that isn't directly relevant very often.
Just because it's Amazon and they're a big company doesn't mean GW are going to just not bother approaching things cautiously either, they have no idea how its actually going to turn out at this point and its clearly a big new thing for them. Rushing straight into handing over the license to everything right away wouldn't be a good idea.
So I guess Indomitus Crusade or anything involving current events is completely off the table given how highly relevant primsrchs and HH tie-ins are to the current narrative. Makes perfect sense, dakka users are awesome producers and should run GW x Amazon's content skate. We'd make pennies!
1. An arc using new characters set within the existing universe.
2. An arc using pre existing characters from minis, background and or novels.
1. Is the path of least resistance. For various reasons.
All we can be sure of is that our favourite pieces of lore WILL be butchered in order to fit in with the magic of TV production.
I would disagree. Adapting a novel is old hat for the tv/film industry. There’s a thousand productions every year that do it. Handing them Eisenhorn can saying “crack on” is the easiest path.
Yes....An adaption would not necessarily be the best route. All depends on the licence and what GW is happy to give away.
It certainly could be an adaptation...of some kind...I'm holding out hope, but........GW....
chaos0xomega wrote: The whole "we need to establish the 40k setting, HH is to stylistically different and is bad marksting" bit hilarious.
No it isn't, because it's distinctly not40k.
They would want a show that can include Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons and Tau. These things are just not relevant to HH.
I wouldn't even make it about something as superficial as which, if any, kinds of Xenos are allowed to show up. 40k is built on how individuals experience the Imperium in the 41st millennium, a besieged theocracy that is dying an agonizingly slow death not least because of its own insane workings. That Imperium simply doesn't exist during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy, with all the thematic shifts that implies. Horus Heresy might as well be a knock-off setting.
chaos0xomega wrote: The whole "we need to establish the 40k setting, HH is to stylistically different and is bad marksting" bit hilarious.
No it isn't, because it's distinctly not40k.
They would want a show that can include Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons and Tau. These things are just not relevant to HH.
That's hilarious, you must be a xenos player kind of guy to think GW cares about ensuring representation of any xenos.
As a Tyranid fan I'm not expecting live action Xenos except possibly Eldar because you can do them with a tall actor and pointy ears. Most of the other Xenos require extensive face makeup and massive bodywork or lots of CGI systems. Heck Tyranids need way more.
Not impossible, but not something you go for in a pilot live action.
Maybe it's just because I've read more novels set in the HH than 40k universe, but I do think HH as a universe would be easier to get across to an audience than 40k.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Maybe it's just because I've read more novels set in the HH than 40k universe, but I do think HH as a universe would be easier to get across to an audience than 40k.
HH would have less topics that could be misjudged or interpreted, either accidentally or deliberately as problematic. But the imperium of the HH era is still highly repressive, xenophobic etc. Will be very interesting to see how that is portrayed and received.
Just because it's Amazon and they're a big company doesn't mean GW are going to just not bother approaching things cautiously either, they have no idea how its actually going to turn out at this point and its clearly a big new thing for them. Rushing straight into handing over the license to everything right away wouldn't be a good idea.
Well no, you just write a different origin for those characters instead. Sure people would love that.
I'd be intrigued what people who think the two licenses are different feel about where the lines are. Can we include characters with origins in the Heresy at all? Can you include them but not reference their history? Include them and give them any history *except* the Heresy one.
I'm fascinated by how people think this works, that you license a whole setting except for the origin of that setting. It's very different to just licensing specific characters and setting for a video game as the scope is small enough you can just define exactly what it is, but I'd love to see how you define 40K overall as distinct from HH.
chaos0xomega wrote: The whole "we need to establish the 40k setting, HH is to stylistically different and is bad marksting" bit hilarious.
No it isn't, because it's distinctly not40k.
They would want a show that can include Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons and Tau. These things are just not relevant to HH.
That's hilarious, you must be a xenos player kind of guy to think GW cares about ensuring representation of any xenos.
You keep ignoring the very real fact that gws business is not built around the HH setting and their shops are not geared around HH stories.
They have 40k as their core business and the HH is a prequel. Your argument is extremely blinkered on one narrow measure of success while ignoring GWs core buisness model. They didn't rearrange everything they sell because the HH books sold well.
40k is still their core setting and until their business model shifts there is no reason at all to assume they will spend their time in the silmarillion of 40k as the live action introduction to that universe.
And yet for the past 20 years GWs #1 literary priority was producing and marketing the Horus Heresy series rather than 50-70 book (lost count) 40k epic.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that anyone who casually falls in love with Horus Heresy Space Marines can likely be convinced to buy 40K Space Marines within a very short span of time of walking into a GW or hobby store.
Also if you look in general book stores they often stock a good range of HH books whilst almost everything else from GW is either just not present or is a scattered mishmash of random titles here and there. HH is most certainly well understood outside of GW's core market.
That said I still think something on Eisenhorn or the Imperial Guard or such is more likely to get produced first for a live action show. I just can't see Amazon going full on into anything 40K that involves armies and lots of Xenos (or even very few Xenos unless its Eldar or perhaps Tau); or requires multiple Space Marine suits and whole armies.
It's not that those things cannot be done, but for Live action those are big complex things to work with and it just feels like GW offers so many options that allow for smaller scale story telling that can be more sane to approach.
As big as GW are they are NOT the Lord of the Rings.
Just because it's Amazon and they're a big company doesn't mean GW are going to just not bother approaching things cautiously either, they have no idea how its actually going to turn out at this point and its clearly a big new thing for them. Rushing straight into handing over the license to everything right away wouldn't be a good idea.
Well no, you just write a different origin for those characters instead. Sure people would love that.
There are very, very few things from the Horus Heresy that are of such significant direct relevance to 40k that they'd be outright necessary to include if those characters show up in something 40k. You don't need to know the exact specifics of Abadon's or Guilliman's or the Lions backstory during the Horus Heresy to be able to have a good portrayal of the character in 40k.
I'd be intrigued what people who think the two licenses are different feel about where the lines are. Can we include characters with origins in the Heresy at all? Can you include them but not reference their history? Include them and give them any history *except* the Heresy one.
I'm fascinated by how people think this works, that you license a whole setting except for the origin of that setting. It's very different to just licensing specific characters and setting for a video game as the scope is small enough you can just define exactly what it is, but I'd love to see how you define 40K overall as distinct from HH
It isn't as hard to define as you're making out. What has been said within in a piece of work that's for 40k is 40k. What's stated in Horus Heresy related media is Horus Heresy. You could include a character and their history if it has shown up in 40k.
40k and the Horus Heresy are obviously connected to each other and part of the same overall universe, but there's not an inseparability where you can't portray one without needing to have the exact specifics of the other as well. There's a 10,000 year difference between the two and little that has direct relevance from one to the other, there are clear distinctions between them and they're for the most part their own separate settings, that's how GW treats them on the whole. You can get into 40k without reading anything about the Horus Heresy beyond what's been said about it in 40k material, or the other way around.
It's no different from making something set in the Star Wars original trilogy era without the prequels. Or the LOTR without the Silmarillion. Or Age of Sigmar without WHFB lore. They're part of the same universe, aspects of it can have relevance, but its not necessary to have the license to those backstories to do the later era.
I knew a lot of people who weren’t into GW but bought into the Horus Heresy series. Back when the HH series were NYT bestsellers. Back when there was hype for the new Horus Heresy that spread through other Sci Fi boards so that even Star Trek and Star Wars nerds wanted to be part of the conversation. Back before Black Library killed all that by changing their release strategy, more than 10 years ago.
For years the HH series has been a by-word for bloated, excessive storylines, greedy publishing, and disillusionment. Perfect for a Rings of Power style series.
There's no reason to expect xenos in this show. They certainly aren't gw's primary focus.
Marines are.
We can be sure marines are in,
Xenos? Much less so.
No Xenos? So who do the Space Marines fight? Each other? Would lead back to HH.
"They certainly aren't gw's primary focus." - It's not up to them if they've sold the rights is it?
Personally, I really enjoyed the story of the first few HH books. Would make a great series of rather expensive movies, but not sure it's TV stuff.
I can see it being some kind of Imperial guard show. All the viewers are "but I thought Warhammer was space marines", then one appears in the final episode. Much like Luke in the Force awakens. lol
They could easily do something like a Genestealer cult rising on a planet, give it some Alien vibes and then last couple of episodes it's all going wrong but luckily the Marines appear at the end to save the day - big shooty battle lots of fireworks aren't they the best buy these models the end.
Characters to include - weird admech who just wants to love, an Enforcer who used to be in the Guard who knows what's going on when they see all these people with funny lumps on their heads. The Governor who is just a prick the whole time. Maybe an Eldar turns up in one episode and acts enigmatically.
I also worry about them making the Imperium seem "nice". A great thing to do would be to make it seem like the cultists are doing the right thing. They are fighting the despotic Imperium. It's just their message gets twisted by Grima Tyranidtongue and suddenly everyone has extra arms and so on.
Case closed, there's your 10 episode series.
Also it's set in a city but they have to go to somewhere weird on the planet in episode 3 or 4.
The fact GW do just license out individual stories and settings though suggests it's going to be an original story. If they just wanted to make Eisenhorn, or Gortrex or even Horus Heresy, they would just license those stories. No need to license the setting as a whole.
deano2099 wrote: The fact GW do just license out individual stories and settings though suggests it's going to be an original story. If they just wanted to make Eisenhorn, or Gortrex or even Horus Heresy, they would just license those stories. No need to license the setting as a whole.
At the same time Amazon might feel that there's a future and the investment in the first series they do is just to establish sets, props, CGI material and such. So Amazon want more security for the future than a single production licence. So instead of securing "a licence" for a single production, they secure one that covers more ground, giving them more security for the future. It might mean that Amazon are shielding themselves from GW then going and getting Netflix and other streaming services also licencing material.
They should do a grimdark Better Off Ted about some Inquisitional order(s). There are so many fun minor ones (https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inquisition#Ordo_Minoris) that could work well as as "office comedy" that could also create jumping off points for the wider 40K universe. Some interesting orders like these:
There's enough potential for absurd hijinks that appeals to a mainstream audience and can introduce everything else the 40k universe can offer without starting people who have no clue about it right in the middle of it. And yeah, for a more conventional introduction to the universe Abnett's Eisenhorn and its spin-offs would probably the best option when it comes to content vs. scale (apparently it's already in progress). Gaunt's Ghosts was inspired by the Sharpe books (that got an TV adaption) so… maybe? Although that seems like something with a scale when you have established a bit of a 40K "TV audience".
chaos0xomega wrote: That's hilarious, you must be a xenos player kind of guy to think GW cares about ensuring representation of any xenos.
Who the feth do you think the Marines are going to fight?
Other marines? Evil humans and their warp-spawned allies?
Um... they could always bring Genestealers (cult or just purestrains - or both). Xenos of all trades since Space Hulk - not much explanation, extensive background, different designs or vehicles/ships/weapons/equipment/homeworlds/language/politics...
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: GSC would be the easiest. You can have primarily human antagonists for 95% of the show and then a pure strain as the final reveal/boss fight.
Do Deathwing - lone marine returns to homeworld to discover cult infestation. It's already been a short story and a comicbook, so why not add a third medium?
There's no reason to expect xenos in this show. They certainly aren't gw's primary focus.
Marines are.
We can be sure marines are in,
Xenos? Much less so.
No Xenos? So who do the Space Marines fight? Each other? Would lead back to HH.
"They certainly aren't gw's primary focus." - It's not up to them if they've sold the rights is it?
Personally, I really enjoyed the story of the first few HH books. Would make a great series of rather expensive movies, but not sure it's TV stuff.
I can see it being some kind of Imperial guard show. All the viewers are "but I thought Warhammer was space marines", then one appears in the final episode. Much like Luke in the Force awakens. lol
We do have this big baddy gw keeps promoting. Chaos
I have no idea why people keep saying 'Eisenhorn'. Abnettverse is not 40K, you could pretend it once was but now that he lost all the brakes recently it became so glaringly obvious it's not even funny. Magic copied from Earthsea? Protagonists finding lightsaber totally not stol--- inspired by certain other franchise owned by Disney (can you say 'lawsuit')? Perpetuals? Your desk computer unraveling all secrets of Chaos by bashing together random letters for a few years? Magic photos?
Etc, etc, this random nonsense copied from whatever Abnett saw last week jarringly not fitting into 40K on its own wouldn't be that big of a deal but any company wanting to build a franchise here would either need to get rid of all of the above so its next offering in 40K range keeps the same tone or lose all the audience liking Abnett stuff the very moment they do 'regular' 40K. It just doesn't work, IMO.
Amazon should do smart thing and make Ciaphas Cain series, Cavill would make a good Cain, protagonists are mostly relatable humans, there is lots of natural humor lightening all the grimdark elements, and Cain series episodic format that doesn't keep straight chronology would lend itself to TV show extremely well. Also, Cain fights virtually any opponent 40K has to offer so no matter who you want to use, there is always a story about it and author did a really good job keeping cast diverse so it's ready to go with zero changes and rewriting on this front too...
Well, if a Caiphus Cain series flops, we can always look forward to hearing an Amazon executive saying, “if I knew then what I know now. I never would have…”
But seriously either an Inquisitor or Rogue Trader series would make the most sense to me as an intro to the 40kCU. Keeps the scale human, and allows them to flesh out the setting.
Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, and Commissars are all boring as hell.
In an ideal world, we'd start off with a "Band of Brothers" styled Guard series. We don't need every single iota of the universe explained to us or the audience in detail--that's what the in-universe propaganda pieces can be used for.
Irbis wrote: I have no idea why people keep saying 'Eisenhorn'. Abnettverse is not 40K, you could pretend it once was but now that he lost all the brakes recently it became so glaringly obvious it's not even funny. Magic copied from Earthsea? Protagonists finding lightsaber totally not stol--- inspired by certain other franchise owned by Disney (can you say 'lawsuit')? Perpetuals? Your desk computer unraveling all secrets of Chaos by bashing together random letters for a few years? Magic photos?
Etc, etc, this random nonsense copied from whatever Abnett saw last week jarringly not fitting into 40K on its own wouldn't be that big of a deal but any company wanting to build a franchise here would either need to get rid of all of the above so its next offering in 40K range keeps the same tone or lose all the audience liking Abnett stuff the very moment they do 'regular' 40K. It just doesn't work, IMO.
Amazon should do smart thing and make Ciaphas Cain series, Cavill would make a good Cain, protagonists are mostly relatable humans, there is lots of natural humor lightening all the grimdark elements, and Cain series episodic format that doesn't keep straight chronology would lend itself to TV show extremely well. Also, Cain fights virtually any opponent 40K has to offer so no matter who you want to use, there is always a story about it and author did a really good job keeping cast diverse so it's ready to go with zero changes and rewriting on this front too...
People keep saying Eisenhorn bevause the initial announcement about GW developing a streaming series with Cavill and Amazon was about an adaptation of Eisenhorn. You might not think it's real 40k, but GW and everyone else seems to.
Plus its a decently well known character who can work in a mostly human and Imperial setting which doesn't really on big battles, titans, armed forces or anything.
There's a huge scope to also do stories that aren't from the books and which flesh out as "adventure of the week" format or even just do a long puzzle quest over several episodes and such.
Perhaps of interest to the discussion? The opening paragraph from Rogue Trader.
For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium to whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day, for whom blood is drunk and flesh eaten. Human blood and human flesh - the stuff of which the Imperium is made.
To be a man in such times is to be one among untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. This is the tale of these times. It is a universe you can live today if you dare - for this is a dark and terrible era where you will find little comfort or hope. If you want to take part in the adventure then prepare yourself now. Forget the power of technology, science and common humanity. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace among the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods.
But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed…
In theory the first words the first players of 40K ever read to prime them on what was to come. And it still stands up pretty well now.
That is 40K boiled down to its core. The mission statement. That is what the show needs to convert first and foremost.
Well if this thread has shown me anything it is the sheer damage the HH series has done to people's perception of 40k...
Now, if some of us lot think that everything should revolve around oversized manchildren, that all of a sudden MUST be 9ft tall, as we live in the manosphere in 40k and everything has to to be ridiculously tall to be relevant, what do you think the uninitiated are going to think if you present that as their doorway into 40k?
We've already seen it happen. Just take a peek at the various 40k subs on Reddit like r/40klore or r/ImaginaryWarhammer to see how this cancer of Primarch spank effects literally everything around it, despite only being a minor part of the 40k universe.
Watching the two free episodes on Warhammer TV convinces me that 40K could work as a nod to Tales Of The Unexpected, hosted by Tzeentch or Cegorach, maybe in the Crystal Labyrinth or the Black Library. Maybe both?
GW gave us a series of 50+ books focusing on the primarchs and basically turned them into the closest thing to "main characters" that exist in the setting. They ate the Luke Skywalkers and Kylo Rens and Darth Vaders of the setting.
A big problem with 40k storytelling is there aren't really any equivalents because 40k is a patchwork mosaic of independent plotlines whereas HH was a concerted and directed effort in writing an epic saga. If GW could come up with a set of primary POV characters that feature through the advancing plot of the setting for more than ~3 books they can probably shift the emphasis onto soneone/something else.
So GW could avoid the mistakes of the Star Wars franchise by simply not adapting the Horus Heresy? That’s a great reason for them not to do it!
As for the rest, there’s Gaunt and co, Eisenhorn and co, Cain and co, Gorgias and co, Calpurnia, Kal Jericho, the Eldar from the Eldar trilogies, Ahriman, the Space Wolves characters, the Inquisitor trilogy characters, etc.. there are are a lot of characters who fill out an omnibus (or two!) with three novels and some short stories.
Grimtuff wrote: We've already seen it happen. Just take a peek at the various 40k subs on Reddit like r/40klore or r/ImaginaryWarhammer to see how this cancer of Primarch spank effects literally everything around it, despite only being a minor part of the 40k universe.
And that's exactly why they'd be likely to do something like that. Because that's actually what's popular, and that's what 40k's media output wider than the older hobby actually consists of.
If you check the memes, the social media, the jokes, and the tiktoks (yes, I mention it), it's not Cain, Ravenor, Eisenhorn, or the human characters getting the most attention. It's the Space Marines, and more specifically, Primarchs. Even if they don't do 30k, I think they're missing a trick not doing it about Space Marines, because *that's* what 40k's legacy is.
THe problem is 40k isn't a narrative with protagonists, but they tried to smash it into one anyway.
Modern 40k suffers from the primarchification of Black library by forcing all stories to turn on the actions of a small cast of protagonists, rather than being a tapestry of history and separate stories that all weave into a setting.
40k's biggest strength and most unique aspect was its power as a setting above a named character, above a protagonist. What we see now is a flanderisation to the extreme down to big name primarch man being the main character of a setting.
40k took this setting centred approach from tolkien because it gives a greater sense of gravitas and depth than a surface level hero adventure for one protagonist.
If we are getting to the point where the universe literally won't turn unless a famous primarch is leading the charge, then 40k is completely bereft of its unique strength, and will become one of the unnumbered boring stories of superhero punchups that we have been saturated with.
For a company that looks at dollar signs, tying your franchise to specific named characters and the actors that play them is highly limiting. Modern studios keep trying to find away around their stars being the centre of the story so that they aren't beholden to them and their careers.
40k is the perfect opportunity to capitalise on the humongous size and scope and the fact that it doesn't have a protagonist and was not designed to have one. It's a great opportunity for the modern streaming strategy of a 3 season show dropped and move on. Because they can keep making a new series in a new corner with a new premise without being tied to previous ones.
As I have said repeatedly, it is a strategically short sighted move for them to go down this primarch fetish route, for many reasons, but not the least of which because 40k is not the story of primarch superheroes and it never was.
Them chasing money down a hole in novels for a specific era of their universe should not be conflated with that era now being the sole central protagonist nor any of those characters be crucial to the story.
40k lasted 10,000 years without them and many stories were told, heroes born and died, without infantile superhero protagonists being required to keep the setting going.
40k is not primarch and never has been. The setting itself is the protagonist and it chews up and spits out demigods on a daily basis, no matter how much plot armour people want to give them.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Perhaps of interest to the discussion? The opening paragraph from Rogue Trader.
For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium to whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day, for whom blood is drunk and flesh eaten. Human blood and human flesh - the stuff of which the Imperium is made.
To be a man in such times is to be one among untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. This is the tale of these times. It is a universe you can live today if you dare - for this is a dark and terrible era where you will find little comfort or hope. If you want to take part in the adventure then prepare yourself now. Forget the power of technology, science and common humanity. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace among the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods.
But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed…
In theory the first words the first players of 40K ever read to prime them on what was to come. And it still stands up pretty well now.
That is 40K boiled down to its core. The mission statement. That is what the show needs to convert first and foremost.
Frankly a version of that text needs to be at the start of at least the first episode, if not during the opening credits of every episode, either as a Star Wars style crawl or (probably better) a voiceover.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Grimtuff wrote: We've already seen it happen. Just take a peek at the various 40k subs on Reddit like r/40klore or r/ImaginaryWarhammer to see how this cancer of Primarch spank effects literally everything around it, despite only being a minor part of the 40k universe.
And that's exactly why they'd be likely to do something like that. Because that's actually what's popular, and that's what 40k's media output wider than the older hobby actually consists of.
If you check the memes, the social media, the jokes, and the tiktoks (yes, I mention it), it's not Cain, Ravenor, Eisenhorn, or the human characters getting the most attention. It's the Space Marines, and more specifically, Primarchs. Even if they don't do 30k, I think they're missing a trick not doing it about Space Marines, because *that's* what 40k's legacy is.
Space Marines needs to be in in tbh (and Eisenhorn does have Space Marines in the first book, though would be a few episodes in; Cain doesn’t though), but IMO the issue with going too hard on Space Marines is that 1) they’re going to be difficult to translate well to live action and it risks turning into a CGI snoozefest; and 2) by their nature Space Marines are somewhat limited in the stories you can tell with them, with it mostly being battle scenes (again, CGI snoozefest). HH would work in that regard, but it has its own problems.
I think there’s alway a tension between the human centric stories that will look best in live action vs a lot of the iconic elements that will just end up being mostly CGI anyway.
Eisenhorn (or a similar story) works well because it’s a human centric story, that includes most of the iconic elements, and really well introduces the Imperium as most likely the main POV for other stories.
Cain doesn’t have marines in the first book in terms of publishing order, but running his Interitus Prime experience as a flashback early on would be an amazingly awesome sequence. Greedy Admech, inter-faction diplomacy and politics, implacable and unknowable aliens, sudden warp shenanegans all topped off with a last minute clutch rescue by the boys in off-white and yellow (the Reclaimers).
The sequence is referred to extensively in the early books.
Flinty wrote: Cain doesn’t have marines in the first book in terms of publishing order, but running his Interitus Prime experience as a flashback early on would be an amazingly awesome sequence. Greedy Admech, inter-faction diplomacy and politics, implacable and unknowable aliens, sudden warp shenanegans all topped off with a last minute clutch rescue by the boys in off-white and yellow (the Reclaimers).
The sequence is referred to extensively in the early books.
Early flashback or tbh even just the first episode (maybe interspersed with some flashbacks to set up his background). Start in medias res with that, have him return to the HQ job at the end then pick up in Ep 2 at the start of the first book where he gets reassigned.
Grimtuff wrote: Well if this thread has shown me anything it is the sheer damage the HH series has done to people's perception of 40k...
Now, if some of us lot think that everything should revolve around oversized manchildren, that all of a sudden MUST be 9ft tall, as we live in the manosphere in 40k and everything has to to be ridiculously tall to be relevant, what do you think the uninitiated are going to think if you present that as their doorway into 40k?
We've already seen it happen. Just take a peek at the various 40k subs on Reddit like r/40klore or r/ImaginaryWarhammer to see how this cancer of Primarch spank effects literally everything around it, despite only being a minor part of the 40k universe.
It's not the Primarchs that make it a good option, it's that the marine characters are more relatable and more human. Loken is why the first few Heresy books worked so well.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So GW could avoid the mistakes of the Star Wars franchise by simply not adapting the Horus Heresy? That’s a great reason for them not to do it!
As for the rest, there’s Gaunt and co, Eisenhorn and co, Cain and co, Gorgias and co, Calpurnia, Kal Jericho, the Eldar from the Eldar trilogies, Ahriman, the Space Wolves characters, the Inquisitor trilogy characters, etc.. there are are a lot of characters who fill out an omnibus (or two!) with three novels and some short stories.
All of which are a relative handful of books (though eisenhorn and Co have been getting more fleshed out), none of whom are actually really movers and shakers within the setting driving forward the narrative except for maybe Ahriman. These are all side characters on their side stories and secondary adventures, basically. These are the Lando Calrissians investigating mysterious disappearances on Cloud Cuty books, not Han, Luke, and Leia in the heart of galactic politics saving everyone from the latest BBEG threatening galactic peace and stability and the continuation of the galactic govt, etc.
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Hellebore wrote: THe problem is 40k isn't a narrative with protagonists, but they tried to smash it into one anyway.
Modern 40k suffers from the primarchification of Black library by forcing all stories to turn on the actions of a small cast of protagonists, rather than being a tapestry of history and separate stories that all weave into a setting.
40k's biggest strength and most unique aspect was its power as a setting above a named character, above a protagonist. What we see now is a flanderisation to the extreme down to big name primarch man being the main character of a setting.
40k took this setting centred approach from tolkien because it gives a greater sense of gravitas and depth than a surface level hero adventure for one protagonist.
If we are getting to the point where the universe literally won't turn unless a famous primarch is leading the charge, then 40k is completely bereft of its unique strength, and will become one of the unnumbered boring stories of superhero punchups that we have been saturated with.
For a company that looks at dollar signs, tying your franchise to specific named characters and the actors that play them is highly limiting. Modern studios keep trying to find away around their stars being the centre of the story so that they aren't beholden to them and their careers.
40k is the perfect opportunity to capitalise on the humongous size and scope and the fact that it doesn't have a protagonist and was not designed to have one. It's a great opportunity for the modern streaming strategy of a 3 season show dropped and move on. Because they can keep making a new series in a new corner with a new premise without being tied to previous ones.
As I have said repeatedly, it is a strategically short sighted move for them to go down this primarch fetish route, for many reasons, but not the least of which because 40k is not the story of primarch superheroes and it never was.
Them chasing money down a hole in novels for a specific era of their universe should not be conflated with that era now being the sole central protagonist nor any of those characters be crucial to the story.
40k lasted 10,000 years without them and many stories were told, heroes born and died, without infantile superhero protagonists being required to keep the setting going.
40k is not primarch and never has been. The setting itself is the protagonist and it chews up and spits out demigods on a daily basis, no matter how much plot armour people want to give them.
Tapestries of history and separate stories, etc don't sell to mainstream audiences.
And narratives about singular characters have a short shelf-life. Audiences want an arc, not 4+ rambling seasons where it becomes clear there is no arc. The HH would have to be shortened considerably not to feel like a bloated waste of time, but if you shorten it you finally get your Endgame that signals the end of the franchise to the audience.
Star Wars couldn’t keep momentum for more than 3 films with the same characters. The prequels and sequels made money, at the expense of poisoning the brand to two separate generations. Treating 40k like Star Wars or even Game of Thrones will just push away everyone not interested in another superhuman soap opera, and then push away the ones who are interested when they realize it’s never doing to deliver.
Star Wara problem was really that there were decades of real world time between trilogies that made using the same actors to tell stories about the same characters an impossibility. The MCU has demonstrated what you can do with character driven narrative for ~15 years. It's a shame they couldn't sustain it longer, byt they had an impressive run of it.
Hellebore wrote:THe problem is 40k isn't a narrative with protagonists, but they tried to smash it into one anyway.
Modern 40k suffers from the primarchification of Black library by forcing all stories to turn on the actions of a small cast of protagonists, rather than being a tapestry of history and separate stories that all weave into a setting.
40k's biggest strength and most unique aspect was its power as a setting above a named character, above a protagonist. What we see now is a flanderisation to the extreme down to big name primarch man being the main character of a setting.
40k took this setting centred approach from tolkien because it gives a greater sense of gravitas and depth than a surface level hero adventure for one protagonist.
If we are getting to the point where the universe literally won't turn unless a famous primarch is leading the charge, then 40k is completely bereft of its unique strength, and will become one of the unnumbered boring stories of superhero punchups that we have been saturated with.
For a company that looks at dollar signs, tying your franchise to specific named characters and the actors that play them is highly limiting. Modern studios keep trying to find away around their stars being the centre of the story so that they aren't beholden to them and their careers.
40k is the perfect opportunity to capitalise on the humongous size and scope and the fact that it doesn't have a protagonist and was not designed to have one. It's a great opportunity for the modern streaming strategy of a 3 season show dropped and move on. Because they can keep making a new series in a new corner with a new premise without being tied to previous ones.
As I have said repeatedly, it is a strategically short sighted move for them to go down this primarch fetish route, for many reasons, but not the least of which because 40k is not the story of primarch superheroes and it never was.
Them chasing money down a hole in novels for a specific era of their universe should not be conflated with that era now being the sole central protagonist nor any of those characters be crucial to the story.
40k lasted 10,000 years without them and many stories were told, heroes born and died, without infantile superhero protagonists being required to keep the setting going.
40k is not primarch and never has been. The setting itself is the protagonist and it chews up and spits out demigods on a daily basis, no matter how much plot armour people want to give them.
Politely (and I don't disagree that 40k and the setting was/is still this for many people), how much of this is true to MOST audiences?
Look at what the youth fandoms and the most vocal 40k fans talk about. They talk about Primarchs, the Big Heroes, and Space Marines, especially the Legions or more memable Chapters. 40k's biggest strength is it's memability and OTTness. It's not about the sandbox, and a sandbox is an awful setting for a show to tackle anyways, because there won't be mass satisfaction by what gets focused on - better to focus on something that nearly EVERYONE gets, such as...
...yup, the Primarchs and Space Marines and Big Names - because those transcend forums and old gamers, and appeal to a mass audience. And, like it or not, that's simply just realistic. GW has grown larger than ever since its shift towards Big Names, and that reflects in it's current vocal fanbase.
Will GW do it? I haven't got a clue, and I don't want to speculate. However, I do want to point out that people who dislike the Primarchs and the Big Name-ification of 40k are in the minority. You say that 40k "isn't a narrative of protagonists", but I think you might be incorrect looking at 40k and its fanbase now.
(also, I do want to point out with Tolkien - the most popular Tolkien media, the Lord of the Rings, famously centres on a group of movers and shakers at the heart of one of the greatest power shifts between Ages in that setting. We aren't seeing the lives of Random Rohan soldier or Gondorian knight - we follow the Fellowship, on their super important quest. The hobbits might just be smallfolk pulled out of their depth, but they're at the heart of one of the most important events that shapes the entirety of Middle-Earth)
On the other hand LOTR takes place over 1 year in-universe and has 3 main character groups and the world defining actions are all resolved at the end of the 6th book. It basically follows what was said above with a well defined set of story arcs and is basically self contained. The HH is way more sprawling.
Tolkiens stories have protagonists, but they cover thousands of years and have different protagonists. Elrond appears in a lot of them, but he's not the main character.
The characters of the lord of the rings aren't the main characters of Arda, nor are the characters of the hobbit. From Tolkien's perspective, I'd say that the languages were the protagonists... or iluvetar given that everything in Arda functions by his will alone (gandalf is only a mover and shaker because iluvetar made him one and had him sent back to continue his role - something gandalf couldn't do himself).
The distinction is, while there are focused characters, they aren't what the whole setting revolves around. Arda continues on regardless of the actions of the characters. It existed before gandalf was there, and it continued after he was gone. The protagonist of the lord of the rings isn't Feanor, despite how central to the silmarillion he was.
40k is not about the primarchs, the setting isn't about what they do in life. Primarchs are but one set of characters that appear and disappear in the setting.
It is a terrible idea to set up a media franchise that tells the viewer 'these are the main characters of 40k' because that's not true.
EDT: The point is that the horus heresy is not 40k and you all keep trying to say it's the best way to make 40k tv. it was one event in the existence one species in the setting that lasted what 15 years? In a setting that covers 60 million.
The primarchs were the protagonists of the horus heresy human event, but that doesn't make them the main characters of the 40k setting and never did. The HH isn't 40k and shouldn't be used to tell people what 40k is.
It's like taking the hobbit and pitching to the public as what Tolkien's life work is about and then everyone thinks that bilbo is the protagonist of the Silmarillion and LotR.
They are making 40k universe content, and the HH isn't the totality or even the focus of that universe. It's also not what is current.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: (also, I do want to point out with Tolkien - the most popular Tolkien media, the Lord of the Rings, famously centres on a group of movers and shakers at the heart of one of the greatest power shifts between Ages in that setting. We aren't seeing the lives of Random Rohan soldier or Gondorian knight - we follow the Fellowship, on their super important quest. The hobbits might just be smallfolk pulled out of their depth, but they're at the heart of one of the most important events that shapes the entirety of Middle-Earth)
Tolkien didn't write his stories with franchise opportunities in mind. Games Workshop PLC very much does.
He kinda did actually. He was the one to originally sell the movie rights to the book. He just probably never imagined it to become the juggernaut it would be.
Tolkiens stories have protagonists, but they cover thousands of years and have different protagonists. Elrond appears in a lot of them, but he's not the main character.
The characters of the lord of the rings aren't the main characters of Arda, nor are the characters of the hobbit. From Tolkien's perspective, I'd say that the languages were the protagonists... or iluvetar given that everything in Arda functions by his will alone (gandalf is only a mover and shaker because iluvetar made him one and had him sent back to continue his role - something gandalf couldn't do himself).
The distinction is, while there are focused characters, they aren't what the whole setting revolves around. Arda continues on regardless of the actions of the characters. It existed before gandalf was there, and it continued after he was gone. The protagonist of the lord of the rings isn't Feanor, despite how central to the silmarillion he was.
40k is not about the primarchs, the setting isn't about what they do in life. Primarchs are but one set of characters that appear and disappear in the setting.
It is a terrible idea to set up a media franchise that tells the viewer 'these are the main characters of 40k' because that's not true.
EDT: The point is that the horus heresy is not 40k and you all keep trying to say it's the best way to make 40k tv. it was one event in the existence one species in the setting that lasted what 15 years? In a setting that covers 60 million.
The primarchs were the protagonists of the horus heresy human event, but that doesn't make them the main characters of the 40k setting and never did. The HH isn't 40k and shouldn't be used to tell people what 40k is.
It's like taking the hobbit and pitching to the public as what Tolkien's life work is about and then everyone thinks that bilbo is the protagonist of the Silmarillion and LotR.
They are making 40k universe content, and the HH isn't the totality or even the focus of that universe. It's also not what is current.
sure, thats all well and good and all, but in terms of the majority of content thats been sold to mass market audiences, its mostly revolved around the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, which conveniently enough features quite a few of the same characters or characters who are fairly direct relations of one another that enables them to narratively "pass the baton" as it were. There hasn't been a silmarillon story or not much of anything else to fill that "thousands of years and different protagonists" bit. The only serious attempt at anything like that thus far was the Rings of Power, which is wholly made up and relies on narrative linkages back to The Hobbit and LotR in order to capture interest (and as I'm told by many on the internet wasn't any good). Likewise the video games like shadow of war/mordor were equally fully made up, but even then are narratively set adjacent to the films/books and tie-in to those storylines directly enough to provide the needed narrative hook for audiences to dive into.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: He kinda did actually. He was the one to originally sell the movie rights to the book. He just probably never imagined it to become the juggernaut it would be.
Giving the story a fairly definitive ending somewhat limits expansion forwards.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: He kinda did actually. He was the one to originally sell the movie rights to the book. He just probably never imagined it to become the juggernaut it would be.
Giving the story a fairly definitive ending somewhat limits expansion forwards.
Is that a bad thing though? My understanding was that Tolkien's works were supposed to be a new legend for our times. That the 4th age was basically the end of myth and all the wondrous races that we no longer see any more running into the start of our own recorded history. Therefore, it can;t run too far forward, or else you lose that grey area interface between "middle earth" and our earth.
I mean, if anything the HH series is quite close to the concept of the other works of the various Tolkiens, in that it spends a lot of time filling in blanks in events that were myth and legend to the people of the main setting, i.e. end of the 3rd age.
And as Rings of Power has tried to capture, there are quite a lot of age-defining, and indeed age-ending, events that happen throughout the books he did write. Destruction of Gondolin, overthrow of Morgoth, fall of Numenor, that kind of thing. Plenty to depict if its just more content that is being looked for.
Flinty wrote: Is that a bad thing though? My understanding was that Tolkien's works were supposed to be a new legend for our times. That the 4th age was basically the end of myth and all the wondrous races that we no longer see any more running into the start of our own recorded history.
If you're wanting to build a franchise that can be milked indefinitely, putting an ending there is a big no-no. Compare to Marvel, which will never end. Prequels are one thing, but we've all seen how much certain parts of fandoms can be annoyed by deviations or contradictions. Middle-Earth being the result of one man's visions make anything added 'feel wrong', whereas something that began as a group project has more wiggle room with concepts.
Considering when Lord of the Rings was released and his intentions behind it - I don't think he was aiming for a franchising deal with Hollywood followed up by a toy line and model range or any of that when he came up with the idea and made it one of his major life's works.
That doesn't mean he ignored such offers when they came after, but it wasn't "made for it" like how Marvel creates things specifically for certain market sectors today.
Also I'd argue that Marvel 100% DOES have endings for their characters. They end them and the world and setting all the time. They just don't stay dead and re-create them. Either simply rebooting from the very start again; or just continuing with a new character playing the role in the evolving setting.
Right now they are on a strong "everything in 1 universe/marketing block" and "nothing ends it just keeps cycling" kind of deal. Which honestly story wise seems insanely messy (esp when they are pulling characters like Conan into a high fantasy futuristic setting).
Flinty wrote: Is that a bad thing though? My understanding was that Tolkien's works were supposed to be a new legend for our times. That the 4th age was basically the end of myth and all the wondrous races that we no longer see any more running into the start of our own recorded history.
If you're wanting to build a franchise that can be milked indefinitely, putting an ending there is a big no-no. Compare to Marvel, which will never end. Prequels are one thing, but we've all seen how much certain parts of fandoms can be annoyed by deviations or contradictions. Middle-Earth being the result of one man's visions make anything added 'feel wrong', whereas something that began as a group project has more wiggle room with concepts.
Flip side, even if you don't have an ending setting your series too close to "current" time is dangerous as you risk overshootong it and having to make it up - see what happened with Game of Thrones once they ran out of books to adapt. Adapting a completed work like the Harry Potter series, Lord of the Rings, or yes, the Horus Heresy is better, because you have a definitive endpoint and know what the ending will be and can write your screenplays and scripts with a destination in mind and deliver a finished product to your audiences. Rather than a meandering and disjointed mess (which is also what HH became as a book series, nothing that can't be solved by cutting ~75% of the filler to focus on the core narrative). Once you finish that series, you now have plot threads for spinoff, prequels, sequels, side stories, and everything else you might be able to imagine.
I think a successful Warhammer Cinematic Universe needs to start somewhere that touches enough of the setting that you can spin off another couple dozens TV shows and films from. For that reason I'd say HH is not necessarily a good start point, because you're heavily limited to spinning off within the 30k era. The only spinoff into 40k would involve taking a time jump with characters like Abaddon, Gilligan, Carl, etc. which might not be the best route to take, as that puts you back into chasing an ongoing narrative being developed in books.
Now, yes you can absolutely just make up a series with a strong ending just for film or tv, you don't need to adapt a book or whatever to have a strong narrative arc, but I would posit that Hollywood isn't really any good at doing that. They never want to commit to an ending because they want to always leave every franchise open for continued development and exploitation and treat films as products rather than stories. The disjointed narrative of the Star Wars sequel trilogy and the relative collapse of the post-endgame MCU are symptoms of that mindset and examples of what happens when you don't have clear and well-defined plans for narrative direction. The skillset within the film and television industry needed to plot out and sustain an interlinked multimedia/cinematic universe indefinitely doesn't really exist, it's still a relatively novel concept that has only come around in the last 10-15 years and has mostly been limited to a relative handful of visionaries and dedicated individuals working on what's probably a literal handful of franchises/IPs. There's more experience on the TV side of things with that, but even then it's mostly limited to managing and finishing up *one* series rather than managing a portfolio of simultaneously running shows and films, etc.
Wasn't Harry Potter still being written when the first films came out? And far as I can tell HH is still being written now too (ok isn't it technically Siege of Terra which is like the second part of that story)
I don't see them doing HH. It's not like the board game where GW can make 1 faction and then story-lore their way around it being both sides of the armed conflict. You can't just copy-paste actors onto the other side of the screen (I mean you technically can -- ok you actually can but its not free not easy to do)
I'm also not expecting their first venture to be Lord of the Rings Two Towers or Clone Wars battle sequences. That's a huge investment for live action to pull it off right; let alone pull it off with titans, armoured warriors and all.
Now, yes you can absolutely just make up a series with a strong ending just for film or tv, you don't need to adapt a book or whatever to have a strong narrative arc, but I would posit that Hollywood isn't really any good at doing that. They never want to commit to an ending because they want to always leave every franchise open for continued development and exploitation and treat films as products rather than stories. The disjointed narrative of the Star Wars sequel trilogy and the relative collapse of the post-endgame MCU are symptoms of that mindset and examples of what happens when you don't have clear and well-defined plans for narrative direction. The skillset within the film and television industry needed to plot out and sustain an interlinked multimedia/cinematic universe indefinitely doesn't really exist, it's still a relatively novel concept that has only come around in the last 10-15 years and has mostly been limited to a relative handful of visionaries and dedicated individuals working on what's probably a literal handful of franchises/IPs. There's more experience on the TV side of things with that, but even then it's mostly limited to managing and finishing up *one* series rather than managing a portfolio of simultaneously running shows and films, etc.
Actually I'd argue the situation is even worse in Hollywood - they've somewhere lost a LOT of skill in pacing, plotting and writing even just 1 good film let alone interconnected ones. Interconnected ones just show the major storytelling issues they've got with their method of production. Or if those skills are not lost, then they are being smothered and crushed by other elements that are enforcing choices which are detrimental to the plotting and pacing of the film from a story and lore perspective.
It's an endemic problem within Hollywood itself and its nothing new. Heck anime has a lot of issues with it and those, in theory, just need translation; but the hollywood machine often wants to re-invent everything even down to rebuilding the whole story.
The other big issue with interconnected is elements such as actors moving on/falling out/having a major publicity boo-boo; or aging out (esp child actors getting too old). These "out of film" elements can be huge issues; esp if the films aren't made back to back like Lord of the Rings were. Even the Harry Potter films had issues with it that they had to work around and they are possibly some of the best examples of a cast (esp a child cast) remaining fixed throughout a long running series.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: He kinda did actually. He was the one to originally sell the movie rights to the book. He just probably never imagined it to become the juggernaut it would be.
Giving the story a fairly definitive ending somewhat limits expansion forwards.
Definitive enough guy himself was writing continuation at one point
I know it'd be considered sacrilege here, but it's also quite possible for them to do stuff like the Horus Heresy but not have it set 10,000 years in the past and switch characters around so there's more crossover with the modern setting.
There's a fundamental question of if this is going to be stories set in the actual, currently existing setting, or if it's going to be how the MCU is to Marvel comics - telling many similar stories but in a separate distinct universe with a different backstory and things happening at different times and to different characters.
deano2099 wrote: I know it'd be considered sacrilege here, but it's also quite possible for them to do stuff like the Horus Heresy but not have it set 10,000 years in the past and switch characters around so there's more crossover with the modern setting.
There's a fundamental question of if this is going to be stories set in the actual, currently existing setting, or if it's going to be how the MCU is to Marvel comics - telling many similar stories but in a separate distinct universe with a different backstory and things happening at different times and to different characters.
I don't see how you can do a story set 30K years ago and just move it 10K years into the future.
I mean 100% Hollywood would and could do that, but then the original lore would be torn apart and left burning in ashes on the floor.
One thing GW are good at is protecting their IP. They aren't just going to let Amazon do whatever they want - plus a big part of the marketing behind this was Henry quitting Witcher over lore issues and moving to do Warhammer. GW and Amazon have to nail the lore almost perfectly in this first production otherwise all that marketing is thrown out the window in an instant.
I wonder if a Kill Team series could work? Hunting down a Xenos incursion of somekind (genestealer cult?) Allows you to get the GW poster boys on screen (Space Marines are the iconic 40K faction), but without getting into a full on war, and you can mix in some normal humans with an accompanying Inquisitor, local PDF, etc.
Plus the idea of small unit special forces doing sneaky stuff is something that the general public can grasp quite easily.
That would be a good premise... for a saturday morning monster of the week cartoon series... Don't think it would work though as a foundational series to build out from though.
I think it could work if done well. There are good TV series (not masterpieces but rather good compared to the average series) that started out as "monster of the week" (Fringe) or "case of the week" (Person of Interest) and turned into something with rather good world building and overarching narratives instead of perpetually staying in the weekly formula.
And after that setup you can start getting into a bunch of the stuff that such a smaller, more intimate, series can only explore tangentially.
For me what rules out HH is the up front commitment - you'd need a minimum of 3 or 4 series to tell the (condensed) story. What if it doesn't get the viewing figures Amazon wants? They either cancel it, making other series less likely to bring in new fans, or try to finish it quickly which would annoy existing fans.
The safe bet is surely a 6 - 8 episode series
focusing on a few characters (Guard?) that can see them interact with a selection of iconic races, settings and characters. Follow that up with spin offs, more in depth series, adaptations of existing stories etc.
Considering all points brought up so far, it seems to me like the holy grail for a 40k show might just be the First Tyrannic War told largely from Kryptman's perspective. You start out small with an investigation of the attack on Tyran, follow the path of the Hive Fleet and have a big finale in the Battle of Macragge. You get lots of opportunities to showcase various aspects of the Imperium, from civilian over the Inquisition and Mechanicus to the navy. You have Space Marines, and not just any old Space Marines, but our Spiritual Liege's own. A lot of the story can be told from a command center with big wigs debating around a holographic table. The narrative is an escalating conflict that doesn't require a big investment for a good time so you can blow the CGI budget on the Battle of Macragge. Even then you can keep it small if need be by focusing on the polar fortresses and the first company's last stand, with a few vistas of surface and space battle thrown in for completion. And alongside the actual 40k things that hopefully jive with the audience, you have a relatable humans versus alien invaders narrative that continues to work so well in shows and movies.
Seems to me like you could make a compelling eight to ten episode story arc out of that.
Geifer wrote: Considering all points brought up so far, it seems to me like the holy grail for a 40k show might just be the First Tyrannic War told largely from Kryptman's perspective. You start out small with an investigation of the attack on Tyran, follow the path of the Hive Fleet and have a big finale in the Battle of Macragge. You get lots of opportunities to showcase various aspects of the Imperium, from civilian over the Inquisition and Mechanicus to the navy. You have Space Marines, and not just any old Space Marines, but our Spiritual Liege's own. A lot of the story can be told from a command center with big wigs debating around a holographic table. The narrative is an escalating conflict that doesn't require a big investment for a good time so you can blow the CGI budget on the Battle of Macragge. Even then you can keep it small if need be by focusing on the polar fortresses and the first company's last stand, with a few vistas of surface and space battle thrown in for completion. And alongside the actual 40k things that hopefully jive with the audience, you have a relatable humans versus alien invaders narrative that continues to work so well in shows and movies.
Seems to me like you could make a compelling eight to ten episode story arc out of that.
Tyranids are likely higher budget than what I would imagine they would want to invest into a first outing if the goal is to test the feasibility and market before building out a proper cinematic universe over time. I also don't think anything involving Tyranids would be particularly interesting as a first go round for mass market audiences. Its too derivative of starship troopers and alien, and im sure starcraft fanboys will call it a ripoff of their game or whatever. You want something with a degree of familiarity with your audiences when you introduce a new setting, but you don't want it to be *too* familiar, otherwise comparisons to other works set in and you put yourself in the shadow of what came before. Something like that is better saved for once you establish an audience and people have a better grasp of the background (both IRL and in-universe). Plus, leading off with Tyranids (or really any xenos) as the BBEG skews the perspective on what the core conflict of the setting is (order (the Imperium) against chaos), as well as making any subsequent BBEG or threat after that seem insignificant by comparison given the magnitude of destruction left in the Tyranids wake and the unstoppable nature of their advance. Tyranids really are a big problem that 40k has in published fiction as well - if the fiction was more generally coherent and there was a more concerted effort to "orchestrate" and "direct" Black Library fiction as a work of collaborative storytelling, the conflict against the Tyranids would very quickly overtake everything else and consume the setting and become the primary focus of storytelling until someone grew enough of a backbone to pull the plug on it and figured out a way to diminish the threat, likely with heavy handed retcons and no small amount of deus ex machina involved. GW has in a way written themselves into a corner with the Tyranids, the only reason it hasn't caught up to them is because of GWs willingness to ignore and actively retcon its own fiction to prevent the Tyranids from eating everyone and everything, otherwise half of Imperium Sanctus (to say nothing of Noctis) would effectively already have been eaten for lunch by the nids.
Shadow Walker wrote: Give me the comedy show entirely or at least partially from the POV of an Ork.
Honestly? Perspective of a Grot might be more fun. They tend to be more intelligent, and as a natural underdog may offer a more entertaining perspective on Orky Kultur?
Actually doing Tyranids like Alien (genstealer on a ship/hormagaunt in the woods) would actually be a very viable way to do Tyranids in the 40K setting.
Yes its derivative, but cinema/TV freaking loves doing stuff that's been done before. Plus its actually lore accurate and somewhat of a nice nod to some of the original inspirations for the tyranids in the first place.
It would also mean they could get away doing a Tyranid without actually needing it to be on-scene a lot of the time. The original Alien the Alien itself doesn't appear all that often, it makes select appearances that worked with a limited budget.
An Alien 1 style series/show could certainly be a way to introduce them as a Xenos threat. Heck one of the Eisenhorn stories (I think a one of the short story format ones) features a roaming hunting loan hormagaunt threatening a population in just such a style. Once again appearing only a scant few times here and there and done so that it could be one of several different xenos or just a wild monster or chaos or such until its identified nearer the end - going from memory on that though so it might be a little different storywise.
A series following a Cadian regiment which focuses on a diverse group of c10 of them. A few intro episodes with them training, with the classic tough drill sergeant pushing them. We get to know the sassy one, the funny one, the dumb one, etc. Then they get shipped off to the front. So far so generic, doesn't scare off people who know nothing about the setting.
Then boom - the front isn't a 2nd world war or modern desert/urban setting - it's a chaos nightmare. Turns out the funny one is brave, the sassy one gets corrupted etc. All appears lost, until the Space Marines come to save the day.
That is a series that doesn't take too many risks, but is still distinctly a 40k setting. And if it gets acceptable viewing figures Amazon can do follow ups / spin offs - where do the survivors go next / Space Marine focused / Chaos focused, or be almost entirely unconnected with the odd cameo (the funny one now has his own platoon!).
Going too deep into the lore, or focusing on non human characters before the world setting is introduced is risky - Amazon will be looking to bring in new viewers as well as existing 40k fans. A relatively grounded start would hopefully mitigate that and lead to more expansive and ambitious content.
bobthe4th wrote: A series following a Cadian regiment which focuses on a diverse group of c10 of them. A few intro episodes with them training, with the classic tough drill sergeant pushing them. We get to know the sassy one, the funny one, the dumb one, etc. Then they get shipped off to the front. So far so generic, doesn't scare off people who know nothing about the setting.
Then boom - the front isn't a 2nd world war or modern desert/urban setting - it's a chaos nightmare. Turns out the funny one is brave, the sassy one gets corrupted etc. All appears lost, until the Space Marines come to save the day.
That is a series that doesn't take too many risks, but is still distinctly a 40k setting. And if it gets acceptable viewing figures Amazon can do follow ups / spin offs - where do the survivors go next / Space Marine focused / Chaos focused, or be almost entirely unconnected with the odd cameo (the funny one now has his own platoon!).
Going too deep into the lore, or focusing on non human characters before the world setting is introduced is risky - Amazon will be looking to bring in new viewers as well as existing 40k fans. A relatively grounded start would hopefully mitigate that and lead to more expansive and ambitious content.
I don't generally disagree with this, but the problem I see with it is the dollarydoo cost of "shipping them off to the front". Anything which even begins to accurately represent the scale of warfare in the 40k setting, particularly of a "chaos nightmare" if various bits of artwork are anything to go by (my mind goes to a couple pieces of artwork in particular), is probably going to push the budget into the realm of a AAA hollywood feature film range for anything more than a few quick cuts to distant battle scenes.
The irony really is that anything that puts the "war" in warhammer 40,000 onto the screen will probably not happen in the first outing, not the first season anyway, as the cost of those big battles and the special effects entailed is really expensive and probably more than they would want to invest while they are still testing the waters for money making potential. Then again we are talking about the studio that dropped almost a half billion dollars just for the first season of Rings of Power, so maybe I'm overthinking it - though not having seen said show I have no idea if they spent that on big battle scenes like that or something else.
Geifer wrote: Considering all points brought up so far, it seems to me like the holy grail for a 40k show might just be the First Tyrannic War told largely from Kryptman's perspective.
This would be my personal favourite of all the suggestions so far.
chaos0xomega wrote: I don't generally disagree with this, but the problem I see with it is the dollarydoo cost of "shipping them off to the front". Anything which even begins to accurately represent the scale of warfare in the 40k setting, particularly of a "chaos nightmare" if various bits of artwork are anything to go by (my mind goes to a couple pieces of artwork in particular), is probably going to push the budget into the realm of a AAA hollywood feature film range for anything more than a few quick cuts to distant battle scenes.
The irony really is that anything that puts the "war" in warhammer 40,000 onto the screen will probably not happen in the first outing, not the first season anyway, as the cost of those big battles and the special effects entailed is really expensive and probably more than they would want to invest while they are still testing the waters for money making potential. Then again we are talking about the studio that dropped almost a half billion dollars just for the first season of Rings of Power, so maybe I'm overthinking it - though not having seen said show I have no idea if they spent that on big battle scenes like that or something else.
Good point - they could use the old Spielberg technique of not revealing the “monster(s)” until as late as possible. I do think they will need to have a least a few expensive effects though, otherwise there’s not much point in getting the 40K license.
It’ll be interesting to see how much is invested in the Fallout series - kind of similar in that you can save money by limiting the big set pieces, and narrowing the focus, or go all out with visually impressive settings (e.g. Liberty Prime striding through a post apocalyptic Washington DC).
Because is there’s one thing the sheer scope of the 40K setting allows? It’s Original Tales.
Pick a planet or invent a system. Show us its trials and tribulations. Maybe it’s fighting off an Ork Invasion. Maybe a Genestealer Cult has been discovered.
What bobthe4th described is basically space above and beyond, and that was easy enough to make. Not every conflict is grand and massive. Some of the time it’s small groups of soldiers exploring tight tunnels and space hulks.
Flinty wrote: What bobthe4th described is basically space above and beyond, and that was easy enough to make. Not every conflict is grand and massive. Some of the time it’s small groups of soldiers exploring tight tunnels and space hulks.
While it's true that you can have a vast range in 40k stories, I can't shake the feeling that the first outing of live action 40k should set expectations. Consider Pitch Black and how vastly different Chronicles of Riddick felt. Or for an example to the opposite, Starship Troopers and its first sequel. In my opinion going all in on big action or claustrophobic horror has the potential to railroad new viewers into thinking that specific thing is what 40k is all about and when a followup show/movie comes around and shows something completely different, a portion of the audience feels cheated.
I know we're all trying to save Amazon's money with our suggestions (some more than others, no doubt), but I think being too miserly isn't going to end well. It won't do either Amazon or GW any good if the big move into mainstream media is a budget production that skimps on Marines and big battles because some dudes cosplaying Guardsmen are cheaper than CGI. Caution may be well advised for an unproven property, but so is confidence. You are trying to sell the audience on the experience, after all, and being too cheap sends the wrong message.
But then you have Alien and Aliens. I mean surely whoever is running this project is actively salivating over trying to emulate that particular lightning In A bottle.
Flinty wrote: But then you have Alien and Aliens. I mean surely whoever is running this project is actively salivating over trying to emulate that particular lightning In A bottle.
I'm never quite sure how to feel about GW in a case like this. On the one hand they have the hubris to think they can succeed where so many others failed. On the other hand they are notoriously conservative and wouldn't gamble their future on a long shot like this.
Also, I totally knew you were going to bring up Alien/s.
The problem is you can spend *a lot* of money and still not be able to have huge battle scenes every episode. Game of Thrones certainly wasn't struggling for budget in later later seasons, but episodes depicting actual full scale wars in any detail were still very limited.
Well that and Battle scenes are just bolter porn/visual gimmicks. They don't necessarily provide any exposition, character development, or drive plot forward. They're expensive but not really the reason people watch films or television, you include them because they help tell a story or move the narrative along from point to point, but your focus is never actually on the war being fought, rather its on the participants.
Geifer wrote: Considering all points brought up so far, it seems to me like the holy grail for a 40k show might just be the First Tyrannic War told largely from Kryptman's perspective.
This would be my personal favourite of all the suggestions so far.
Counterpoint:
Just do the Battle of Tyran.
Introduces the weirdness of the AdMech, the sheer horror of Tyranids, and throws in those lovable lunks of Catachan to boot!
Awsum to see Henry as one of the forces behind it, he clearly cares about 40k a great deal and likely won't run it into the ground for profit. Hope they stick to the source material and it doesn't become like how Amazon handled LOTR. (not in the 'euughhh woke prepagandah' kind of way but in the staying true to the source material kind of way.) Just hoping it is suitably grimdark and is geared towards fans, not random people that might not even care about it (knowing GW execs not sure if that's how it'll turn out) but it's just cool to see some news on this. I look forward to this with cautious optimism.
Geifer wrote: Considering all points brought up so far, it seems to me like the holy grail for a 40k show might just be the First Tyrannic War told largely from Kryptman's perspective.
This would be my personal favourite of all the suggestions so far.
Counterpoint:
Just do the Battle of Tyran.
Introduces the weirdness of the AdMech, the sheer horror of Tyranids, and throws in those lovable lunks of Catachan to boot!
And the added (grimdark) bonus is that all characters will die at the end
Let’s think The Terminator. And how brief scenes of the Future War setup the overall stakes.
That can be applied to 40K, specifically a show about an Inquisitor (who needn’t be Eisenhorn!).
You open with the expected narrations (only war, grim dark, won’t be missed blah blah blah), over a massed battle. Could be Orks, could be GSC, maybe a Chaos Invasion.
Narration then shifts to focus on the actual job of an Inquisitor. Preventing any given world being plunged into war.
Right there, the importance of the Inquisition is set out. The stakes are set out. And yes. The means of the Inquisition receive some early justification.
It could go like Wheel of Time.
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