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Animation issues aside, the Orks'n'Guard story that opened Warhammer+ was pretty good. I reckon that mix would again be good for an opening salvo for the big screen.

chaos0xomega wrote:
The Horus Heresy novel series has actually reached mainstream and widespread appeal and had a number of books hit various bestsellers lists and get reviews in major publications like the New York Times. You can't really say the same about any 40k series I am aware of.

I have likewise met many people who have had no interaction with warhammer, etc. beyond having read some or all of the Horus Heresy series.

The implication of these datapoints is that the market is better primed to accept a Horus Heresy tv series than it is a warhammer 40k series.

Are you sending posts into the future from a basement in 1995?

Book sales are not a relevant metric of popularity in the year of our Khorne 2023. There were ~25,000 people playing Rogue Trader an hour ago. ~12,000 playing Darktide. A book gets on the NYT list with 5k to 10k sales. Another number I have seen you quote in other discussions is the 700K+ members of the 40K reddit.

I frankly don't believe your anecdotal evidence of meeting people who only read the HH series, but even if that bizarre claim accurately represents your experience it's anecdotal.

A story about humans fighting aliens is not "one-sided" in any meaningfully damaging way by the standards of "modern audiences". Independence Day was not considered one-sided, nor was Jurassic Park, etc. But that doesn't really matter yet, because it won't be a xenos-centric story. It will be Chaos-centric. That said, about half of the xenos races would be more affordable to render than Marines. Aeldari/Drukhari/Tau/GSC are just actors in cosplay. Nids/Orks/Necrons would require CGI (Necrons being the most cost-effective to do).

The Horus Heresy is not a good story in its expanded form, and is only interesting to us because we started out as 40K fans and had a built-in curiosity about how things in the universe we love got the way they are. It's literally trivia for us to memorize. To an unfamiliar audience the HH narrative would be an absolute shambles; a bunch of barely-differentiated really big guys, who lead humanity's armies of slightly smaller big guys, in the name of the biggest guy of all (who doesn't really seem that special or capable, despite everyone saying how special he is) on a vaguely-delineated mission to seize control of the galaxy from the evil clutches of... other humans. There is a magic evil force working against them, but nobody seems to worry about it and people in power barely acknowledge its existence.

The scale is also impossible for TV. Rings of Power, the most expensive show ever made, couldn't even achieve armies that look larger than the number of people you could dump out of a suburban Best Buy on Boxing Day. Doing that x10 and errybody is in power armour is just a non-starter for TV. It could only happen if they end up doing movies.

Eisenhorn is the odds-on favourite for adaptation. The Crowl books would be doable but are not as natural an intro as E. A Guardsman story could work, but they probably don't want a military POV right off the bat. A brand new Inquisitor could also be the move, but would probably disappoint some of the fans, who would be denied their maximum potential amount of "I Recognize That!!"

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
bring the Warhammer 40,000 universe to screens, big and small.

And this suggests it is the whole 40k universe they signed over.

It doesn't suggest anything of the sort. Bringing one thing from 40k to the screen would be bringing the 40k "universe" to the world.

The WarCom article is not a contract, and GW's past actions and history with licensing things is perhaps a bit more telling than some rando article on an advertising website.

I agree with Brian that it is likely a very generous license, but the idea that because an article says "universe" that they suddenly have access to everyone and everything 40k is taking that a bit too far.

There are many examples of press releases and articles from video game announcements and such where "universe" gets mentioned, in cases where they obviously only have the rights to specific things rather than the "universe" on the whole. Space Marine 2 was described as they'd be "bringing the Warhammer 40,000 universe to life like never before". Total War Warhammer was announced with them talking about the "deep and rich universe of Warhammer" and "We’ve always loved the Warhammer universe" but specifically referring to WHFB. Frontier when announcing Realms of Ruin Frontier said they had the license for the "Warhammer Age of Sigmar universe.", which apparently shouldn't be possible if GW only has two universes and there isn't a licensable universe of AoS but not including WHFB and Blood Bowl too...

Them saying they're making something in/for/with the "universe" just means it's something to do with that and they've licensed at least parts of the setting, it's absolutely not a term they've "legally defined to mean a broader range of properties" where because they said "Warhammer 40,000 universe" that inherently means they have the rights to the whole lot.



While true on the gaming part, I will say that those companies never said they had ‘exclusive rights’ to those settings either.
Doesn’t make a difference in the sense of Frontier having fantasy suddenly, but just to add for clarity.
(I.e. other companies can still make AoS games (though they may have certain genre exclusivity))

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also as to the above. I know someone who just read Heresy, till they later got into the mainline. But it was HH that got them.
But yes, it’s a very anecdotal situation for the odd person etc

Animated Deff Skwadron please! Would be a great introduction to 40K Orks. Surprised they haven’t done it for WH+, now I think about it…

 Jadenim wrote:
Animated Deff Skwadron please! Would be a great introduction to 40K Orks. Surprised they haven’t done it for WH+, now I think about it…

Just think of the subtitles needed for that one

Thinking out loud, the unification wars on Terra would be a good setting. No real prior knowledge needed, post apocalyptic setting well understood, barbarians, thunder warriors and introduction of space marines.

Sunno wrote:
Thinking out loud, the unification wars on Terra would be a good setting. No real prior knowledge needed, post apocalyptic setting well understood, barbarians, thunder warriors and introduction of space marines.

Not going to happen. Doesn't draw new people into the world of Warhammer and has no draw for existing fans of Warhammer. Literally a lose lose.

I agree that something a bit more focussed down on a small group of likeable and relatable characters would be a good place to start.

On that basis I think the Cain stories would be a good entry point. While they are set against larger conflicts, the actual stories focus more on Cain and a small group of supporting characters. Many of the stories are against Chaos forces, which are just humans in different costumes.

It is also deliberately less grimdark and has loads of opportunity for levity, even though the grinding grimness of the setting, eldrich horror of cult activity and the general horrors of eternal conflict can very easily be hung around the place. Cain also meets up wit basically every faction within the Imperium and beyond at one point or other.

And then they can blow a nice chunk of budget on the occasional mass battle sequence when things get a bit hairy for the 597th.

I have great fondness for Space: Above and Beyond and the newer BSG in terms of military sci-fi that have a similar feel, but were also able to do a lot around the periphery of actual combat.

HH has great potential, given the right time and budget to portray its scope.

I believe people strongly underestimate the marketability of primarchs in general, but especially in the context of a serialized format like this. They are a great premise to draw in people and keep them engaged, as they effectively work like a boy band, only with more personality traits and facets to explore and identify with. And that's not even taking into account their downfall.

It's probably as close to the ideal source material as it gets.

 Flinty wrote:
I agree that something a bit more focussed down on a small group of likeable and relatable characters would be a good place to start.

So what you're saying is we should have something like a squad of Ultramarines exchange banter as they walk across a foggy wasteland on some kind of mission, and get picked off one by one by unseen assailants? It's a classic movie plot and should go down well with audiences. I have a good feeling about it.

 BertBert wrote:
I believe people strongly underestimate the marketability of primarchs in general, but especially in the context of a serialized format like this.

Might not be the best time for Primarchs. I hear superhero movies aren't doing so hot of late.

 Geifer wrote:

I hear superhero movies aren't doing so hot of late.

That's just Marvel, really. Invincible and The Boys did extremely well, which are thematically a lot closer to 40k. People are just sick of the sterile, sanitized designed-by-commitee kind of super heroes.

I've not read the books, but I feel like an ensemble cast like Gaunt's Ghosts would be an excellent place to start.

It wouldn't work as the first outing, but adapting Steve Lyons - Dead Men Walking as a 1 series wonder could be pretty great.

 BertBert wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

I hear superhero movies aren't doing so hot of late.

That's just Marvel, really. Invincible and The Boys did extremely well, which are thematically a lot closer to 40k. People are just sick of the sterile, sanitized designed-by-commitee kind of super heroes.

DC isn't doing great either and they heavily leaned into doom and gloom vibes for the last ten or so years. I'd be concerned that general audiences might find demi-god cardboard cutouts duking it out at let-the-galaxy-burn-o'clock too derivative of something they haven't been thrilled about before.

I happen to think of a lot of what we got in the recent past as already sanitized and adjusted to fit a broader audience. Who knows, it seems to have worked for GW so far and they might try it some more with their Amazon deal. I'm just not convinced that it's the right way to go about it.

 Geifer wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
I agree that something a bit more focussed down on a small group of likeable and relatable characters would be a good place to start.

So what you're saying is we should have something like a squad of Ultramarines exchange banter as they walk across a foggy wasteland on some kind of mission, and get picked off one by one by unseen assailants? It's a classic movie plot and should go down well with audiences. I have a good feeling about it.

Not as such. Ultramarines are neither likeable nor particularly relatable as giant hypnoindoctrinated genetically and bionically enhanced supersoldiers with their own agendas. That's one of the reasons why I think a marine focus might not pay off in the first instance. Having Marines as just bigger humans with human problems kind does them a disservice in the potential complexity of character development. Marines are not human. However they are introduced into the film/series world will also stick and be the baseline for all other entries. I would much prefer to have them as occasional drop in characters that have a massive impact in a short time, rather than be the core of a series. Kinda like their supposed military doctrine

I still firmly believe that Astartes is the pinnacle of Marine representatio in media

In terms of the plot, I mean a 40k remix of dog soldiers would be amazing! Otherwise, that kind of thing is somewhat overdone. However, in terms of an introductory thing to the setting, maybe a familiar plot is a useful crutch. I mean origin stories are all basically the same, but they allow the main character to get fleshed out without the audience really needing to think about the plot. Its more important to get the actors established in the characters. For 40k, the setting is almost one of the characters and needs established in the same way.

 Geifer wrote:
I'd be concerned that general audiences might find demi-god cardboard cutouts duking it out at let-the-galaxy-burn-o'clock too derivative of something they haven't been thrilled about before.

But here's the thing: I don't believe that's the meat of HH, only the final stages. Here's a rough sketch.

You start with one initial protagonist, a young Horus, and show his origins on Cthonia. This leaves plenty of space to portray the brutal reality of the little people in the Imperium languishing in ruined hive cities on an industrially exploited planet. With that crucial part of the overall setting established, you can explore Horus' life among the gangsters as a formidable – but still fairly young – primarch, until he is found and brought before the emperor. Big reveal and wow-moment with the first Space Marines and daddy Emp at the end of the 2h pilot episode: Horus is the first of his long-lost sons to be rediscovered. The great crusade, Terra being earth (duh), the role of Mars and the Mechanicum are established. Horus is raised and trained to fulfil his duty to the Emperor.

Gauge the audience reaction and take it from there. Show Horus in action for an episode, with snippets of the Emperor noticing Russ on Fenris, eventually shifting focus entirely to that plot. Vikings time! Emperor has his eating and fighting contest with Russ, the next primarch enters the ranks. Personal conflict between Horus and Russ, ending the plot on a note of high tension.

Now, with this general structure you can stretch the series for how ever long you want. Every time a new primarch is introduced, you get a fresh locale with a different theme to explore. You had Mad Max dystopia with horus, Space Vikings with Russ and a bunch more to keep things fresh. Want Space batman? Kurze is there. Want a hopeful redemption arc for a doomed planet and society? Fulgrim. Jungle Deathworld with Alien horrors? Lion El Johnson. Throw a curve ball on the entire narrative? Alpharius was there all along. Gladiatorial battles? Angron. Spend more or less time on each depending on how much you can do with their origin.

Not only do you have this immense variety in locales and themes, but you also get to add a new personality into the established roster, introducing new tensions, alliances and drama.

Once you have everything in place, you can start tackling milestones like Ullanor to establish Orks, and Horus becoming warmaster. And so on and so forth...

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
It wouldn't work as the first outing, but adapting Steve Lyons - Dead Men Walking as a 1 series wonder could be pretty great.

It wasn't a good book and wouldn't make a good screenplay either

 BertBert wrote:

Now, with this general structure you can stretch the series for how ever long you want. Every time a new primarch is introduced, you get a fresh locale with a different theme to explore. You had Mad Max dystopia with horus, Space Vikings with Russ and a bunch more to keep things fresh. Want Space batman? Kurze is there. Want a hopeful redemption arc for a doomed planet and society? Fulgrim. Jungle Deathworld with Alien horrors? Lion El Johnson. Throw a curve ball on the entire narrative? Alpharius was there all along. Gladiatorial battles? Angron. Spend more or less time on each depending on how much you can do with their origin.

Describing the same thing five different ways and being like, "people will eat up this variety!"

Every primarch is the same thing, a big conflicted traditional masculine fighting guy. You're kinda just advertising your own hyper-narrow interests.

 Altruizine wrote:

Describing the same thing five different ways and being like, "people will eat up this variety!"

Every primarch is the same thing, a big conflicted traditional masculine fighting guy. You're kinda just advertising your own hyper-narrow interests.

People have been eating up the concept of Space Marines well enough for decades, so there must be something to it.

I'm also not more or less interested in HH than say Eisenhorn, so your conclusion is quite off the mark. All I'm saying is that HH is structured in a way that would lend itself really well to a serialized format.

I think I’d prefer Marines to be used super sparingly.

The story of the Imperium is the story of smelly little plebs like you and I. Some become Inquisitors, or Lords of Terra. Some Guardsmen become Legends. Most die in horrific ways on far off battlefields, or anonymously in the depths of a Hive, at the work station that’s been their destiny since birth.

 BertBert wrote:

People have been eating up the concept of Space Marines well enough for decades, so there must be something to it.

I thought we were more focused on what would have the most widespread appeal, not what would appeal to people who are already primed to enjoy military sci-fi (or are already 40K) fans.

When you look at something like GoT that made the jump from nerd-niche to culture-defining it has a bunch of elements that are absent or shoehorned into HH. Not the least of which is actual women characters. Significant difference between that and ~20 Big Boys Bashing (with a few bit-parts for women humans who never last longer than a season, and are usually only there to be acted upon by the Primarchs and Marines).

 BertBert wrote:

I'm also not more or less interested in HH than say Eisenhorn, so your conclusion is quite off the mark. All I'm saying is that HH is structured in a way that would lend itself really well to a serialized format.

No kidding, a series of books would translate well into a series of TV seasons/movies?

Since I'm already a 40K fan, who has read HH novels, I'd be right there with you in terms of personally enjoying a HH TV show. But it's a poor choice for a debut series that everyone will be hoping injects the deep and rewarding 40K lore into mainstream culture consciousness in an unprecedented way.

It’s not going to be HH. The announcement is clear, they’ve licenced the 40k universe with the option for fantasy. HH is not 40k. Peeps who licence HH don’t get Eldar, peeps who licence 40K don’t get Horus.

 Altruizine wrote:

No kidding, a series of books would translate well into a series of TV seasons/movies?

If it's that obvious it should be accounted for, shouldn't it? Having a ready-made script will save time, money and problems down the road.

 Altruizine wrote:

Since I'm already a 40K fan, who has read HH novels, I'd be right there with you in terms of personally enjoying a HH TV show. But it's a poor choice for a debut series that everyone will be hoping injects the deep and rewarding 40K lore into mainstream culture consciousness in an unprecedented way.

I reckon the exposure of being aired on Amazon Prime and starring A-list actors will do most of the heavy lifting in that regard, as long as the quality of the series is up to par.

 Altruizine wrote:

When you look at something like GoT that made the jump from nerd-niche to culture-defining it has a bunch of elements that are absent or shoehorned into HH. Not the least of which is actual women characters. Significant difference between that and ~20 Big Boys Bashing (with a few bit-parts for women humans who never last longer than a season, and are usually only there to be acted upon by the Primarchs and Marines).

Game of Thrones is a great example. It reached mainstream appeal due to a combination of a well crafted setting and plot, a fantastic cast and high production quality. Once the ties to the original plot were largely severed, the show writers left to their own devices and entire plot points abandoned or left out, the show's popularity plummetted in a matter of episodes. I'm not sure how big of a factor having "actual women characters" is, because I'm not aware of any related data, but dismissing HH for the reason that it's mostly about men doing war and having daddy issues strikes me as negligent to say the least.

What it comes down to, I guess, is what GW wants to project in their first big outing, and my hunch is that it's not some slice of life story about the odd guards(wo)man, but rather something related to dudes in power armour.

Primarchs would be a good fit for a "What If..." series, with the Emperor scrying futures.

I personally think that they're laying the groundwork for an Indomitus Crusade series.

MaxT wrote:
It’s not going to be HH. The announcement is clear, they’ve licenced the 40k universe with the option for fantasy. HH is not 40k. Peeps who licence HH don’t get Eldar, peeps who licence 40K don’t get Horus.

Go back through the last few pages of discussion, as has been argued to death, GW has a specific internal definition for what "universe" means which is inclusuve of more than you realize.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Primarchs would be a good fit for a "What If..." series, with the Emperor scrying futures.

I personally think that they're laying the groundwork for an Indomitus Crusade series.

Heavy doubt. Maybe down the line but it would be too expensive to start with as sn unproven property and requires too much background knowledge to understand it properly - it would work after audiences had enough exposure to the setting, players, and politics via other series but not as a starting point for newcomers.

Just because primarchs are popular with wargaming fans doesn't mean they are a good choice for leading GW into tv.

40k isn't primarchs and GWs product strategy isn't about them.

It would be incredibly short-sighted to do that and it would position their product lines at odds with their tv advertising.

It's very dumb to make a superhero space opera as the only visible advertising for your product lines for them not to match up with it.

Unless gw decides to radically shift their strategy and make the HH the tent pole of their business and turn 40k into a specialist game, it's not a smart move.

Now that theyve move to primaris almost none of the 40k product line is compatible with or represents the Horus heresy. Having that as your main product when your tv show is not matching any of it is really stupid.


What I expect to happen is what they did with game of thrones.

Make a 40k show and then later a Horus heresy prequel.

40k isn't Horus heresy and it is absurd to market it that way

They just need something that doesn't drown the layman with obscure in-universe terms from the get-go. Babble about the Adeptus Mechanicus and Omnissiah will just clock a lot of people out if they don't get eased into it.

 Shakalooloo wrote:
They just need something that doesn't drown the layman with obscure in-universe terms from the get-go. Babble about the Adeptus Mechanicus and Omnissiah will just clock a lot of people out if they don't get eased into it.

That’s…that’s Eisenhorn.

To the man in the street? It’s a sci-fi noire. By the end? You’ve some inkling of the wider horror of existence.

Gotrek and Felix would be a great one to start but I guarantee they will do 40k first.

This first show is about setting the scene and showing the general public that this is an interesting universe to want to get in to. It won't necessarily be "for the fans". They've already got us suckers paying for tiny plastic men.

 Olthannon wrote:
Gotrek and Felix would be a great one to start but I guarantee they will do 40k first.

Considering they've announced it is a 40k show that is a pretty good bet.