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Having the rights to the Horus Heresy isn't about making a dedicated HH TV show, it's about having the flexibility to have flashback scenes that deal with that time period should it be relevant to the story being told.
No-one voluntarily gets themselves into a Rings of Power / Silmarilion situation. The idea GW would approach someone the size of Amazon with "hey you can license this fictional universe, but not the backstory to it" is laughable. It means if they make a big success of it someone else could come in and get the rights to the prequel series.
They are different settings in terms of the actual games but they are very much the same setting by any other definition.
Yes, when they license out video games they often slice off bits and pieces and sell non-exclusive licenses, but assuming that model caries forward into how they're doing TV licensing... is highly unlikely.
Flinty wrote: Not as such. Ultramarines are neither likeable nor particularly relatable as giant hypnoindoctrinated genetically and bionically enhanced supersoldiers with their own agendas. That's one of the reasons why I think a marine focus might not pay off in the first instance. Having Marines as just bigger humans with human problems kind does them a disservice in the potential complexity of character development. Marines are not human. However they are introduced into the film/series world will also stick and be the baseline for all other entries. I would much prefer to have them as occasional drop in characters that have a massive impact in a short time, rather than be the core of a series. Kinda like their supposed military doctrine
I'm in full agreement, but that ship has sailed. Black Library was built on the back of humanized Marines as much as Dan Abnett's blatant disregard for the feel of the setting. I don't think there's any going back after two decades of exposure to that, not the least because the humanization was a deliberate act to allow authors to better reach a wider audience and write to literary standards. A show or movie is going to need the exact same methods letting Marine characters carry a narrative if they are to feature prominently.
And call me cynical, but I just can't imagine that GW wouldn't want the spotlight on Marines.
Geifer wrote: I'd be concerned that general audiences might find demi-god cardboard cutouts duking it out at let-the-galaxy-burn-o'clock too derivative of something they haven't been thrilled about before.
But here's the thing: I don't believe that's the meat of HH, only the final stages. Here's a rough sketch.
You start with one initial protagonist, a young Horus, and show his origins on Cthonia. This leaves plenty of space to portray the brutal reality of the little people in the Imperium languishing in ruined hive cities on an industrially exploited planet. With that crucial part of the overall setting established, you can explore Horus' life among the gangsters as a formidable – but still fairly young – primarch, until he is found and brought before the emperor. Big reveal and wow-moment with the first Space Marines and daddy Emp at the end of the 2h pilot episode: Horus is the first of his long-lost sons to be rediscovered. The great crusade, Terra being earth (duh), the role of Mars and the Mechanicum are established. Horus is raised and trained to fulfil his duty to the Emperor.
Gauge the audience reaction and take it from there. Show Horus in action for an episode, with snippets of the Emperor noticing Russ on Fenris, eventually shifting focus entirely to that plot. Vikings time! Emperor has his eating and fighting contest with Russ, the next primarch enters the ranks. Personal conflict between Horus and Russ, ending the plot on a note of high tension.
Now, with this general structure you can stretch the series for how ever long you want. Every time a new primarch is introduced, you get a fresh locale with a different theme to explore. You had Mad Max dystopia with horus, Space Vikings with Russ and a bunch more to keep things fresh. Want Space batman? Kurze is there. Want a hopeful redemption arc for a doomed planet and society? Fulgrim. Jungle Deathworld with Alien horrors? Lion El Johnson. Throw a curve ball on the entire narrative? Alpharius was there all along. Gladiatorial battles? Angron. Spend more or less time on each depending on how much you can do with their origin.
Not only do you have this immense variety in locales and themes, but you also get to add a new personality into the established roster, introducing new tensions, alliances and drama.
Once you have everything in place, you can start tackling milestones like Ullanor to establish Orks, and Horus becoming warmaster. And so on and so forth...
The question here is, how many hours/seasons are you going to spend on Great Crusade character drama (including eighteen origin stories for the Primarchs alone) and genocide of the week episodes before you get to the actual Horus Heresy? I'll be brief since it's been discussed already, but while you have a lot of books and a set series of events that make planning out the whole thing easier, you're suggesting that the first outing of as of yet unproven live-action 40k should be a multi-season endeavor revolving around things that are largely myth in the actual 40k setting and have considerable stylistic differences to the main setting. That would require Amazon to commit long term and, as has already been mentioned, does not provide GW with the kind of marketing they are likely after.
I just don't find it realistic to start with the prequel even if in terms of narrative structure it could be considered a sound choice. There's no real reason to do that before establishing the actual 40k setting in a less ambitious format to prove it can find an audience first.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
Hellebore wrote: Just because primarchs are popular with wargaming fans doesn't mean they are a good choice for leading GW into tv.
40k isn't primarchs and GWs product strategy isn't about them.
It would be incredibly short-sighted to do that and it would position their product lines at odds with their tv advertising.
It's very dumb to make a superhero space opera as the only visible advertising for your product lines for them not to match up with it.
40k has been turned into saturday cartoon with big heroes squaring off against big baddies in repeated cycle and it's the big names that decide fate of galaxy.
It might not have been space opera before but now is as players wanted their "advancing storyline" and GW gave it(while also maintaining status quo).
So adventures of Guilliman and Lion in 40k would be feasible
Whatever it is marines are in in some way or other.
deano2099 wrote: Having the rights to the Horus Heresy isn't about making a dedicated HH TV show, it's about having the flexibility to have flashback scenes that deal with that time period should it be relevant to the story being told.
No-one voluntarily gets themselves into a Rings of Power / Silmarilion situation. The idea GW would approach someone the size of Amazon with "hey you can license this fictional universe, but not the backstory to it" is laughable. It means if they make a big success of it someone else could come in and get the rights to the prequel series.
They are different settings in terms of the actual games but they are very much the same setting by any other definition.
Yes, when they license out video games they often slice off bits and pieces and sell non-exclusive licenses, but assuming that model caries forward into how they're doing TV licensing... is highly unlikely.
I find the "What if they need a flashback scene?" a bit absurd. The answer to that would just be to not write something that requires a flashback to 10,000 years before 40k - it's something dozens upon dozens of 40k stories have managed to do without issue, there's no reason a TV show would be a different situation. The Horus Heresy is a vastly different setting and 40k stories work perfectly fine without needing to know more than the very basics of it, and even that isn't directly relevant very often.
Just because it's Amazon and they're a big company doesn't mean GW are going to just not bother approaching things cautiously either, they have no idea how its actually going to turn out at this point and its clearly a big new thing for them. Rushing straight into handing over the license to everything right away wouldn't be a good idea.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/12/23 11:17:43
1. An arc using new characters set within the existing universe.
2. An arc using pre existing characters from minis, background and or novels.
1. Is the path of least resistance. For various reasons.
All we can be sure of is that our favourite pieces of lore WILL be butchered in order to fit in with the magic of TV production.
I would disagree. Adapting a novel is old hat for the tv/film industry. There’s a thousand productions every year that do it. Handing them Eisenhorn can saying “crack on” is the easiest path.
I agree with MaxT. If the point is to widen appeal beyond the current fan base then the universe itself needs to be established first. I think it would be easier to use established characters first as that gives the fan base a bit of nostalgia and lets them ease into it more. Time later to expand into wholly new stories and characters.
I wil certainly keep an open mind, and I’m usually easy to please, it still really hoping the first things out the gate aren’t crap.
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
The whole "we need to establish the 40k setting, HH is to stylistically different and is bad marksting" bit hilarious. The HH novel series has been the second best marketing GW has had, behind Total War Warhammer. As I've said befire, I've met a lot of people who don't engage with the hobby who do engage with those books (or TWW). Ive likewise met many people who found their way to 40k/AoS via those avenues. GW has/is building itself as a lifestyle hobby, it's goal is to have its customers engaging with multiple product lines. It's expectation is that people playing one game will be playing multiple. I very much doubt that it's concerned that a HH series will market HH more heavily than it will 40k proper and result in more customers playing a "secondary game" than a primary one or whatever.
deano2099 wrote: Having the rights to the Horus Heresy isn't about making a dedicated HH TV show, it's about having the flexibility to have flashback scenes that deal with that time period should it be relevant to the story being told.
No-one voluntarily gets themselves into a Rings of Power / Silmarilion situation. The idea GW would approach someone the size of Amazon with "hey you can license this fictional universe, but not the backstory to it" is laughable. It means if they make a big success of it someone else could come in and get the rights to the prequel series.
They are different settings in terms of the actual games but they are very much the same setting by any other definition.
Yes, when they license out video games they often slice off bits and pieces and sell non-exclusive licenses, but assuming that model caries forward into how they're doing TV licensing... is highly unlikely.
I find the "What if they need a flashback scene?" a bit absurd. The answer to that would just be to not write something that requires a flashback to 10,000 years before 40k - it's something dozens upon dozens of 40k stories have managed to do without issue, there's no reason a TV show would be a different situation. The Horus Heresy is a vastly different setting and 40k stories work perfectly fine without needing to know more than the very basics of it, and even that isn't directly relevant very often.
Just because it's Amazon and they're a big company doesn't mean GW are going to just not bother approaching things cautiously either, they have no idea how its actually going to turn out at this point and its clearly a big new thing for them. Rushing straight into handing over the license to everything right away wouldn't be a good idea.
So I guess Indomitus Crusade or anything involving current events is completely off the table given how highly relevant primsrchs and HH tie-ins are to the current narrative. Makes perfect sense, dakka users are awesome producers and should run GW x Amazon's content skate. We'd make pennies!
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
1. An arc using new characters set within the existing universe.
2. An arc using pre existing characters from minis, background and or novels.
1. Is the path of least resistance. For various reasons.
All we can be sure of is that our favourite pieces of lore WILL be butchered in order to fit in with the magic of TV production.
I would disagree. Adapting a novel is old hat for the tv/film industry. There’s a thousand productions every year that do it. Handing them Eisenhorn can saying “crack on” is the easiest path.
Yes....An adaption would not necessarily be the best route. All depends on the licence and what GW is happy to give away.
It certainly could be an adaptation...of some kind...I'm holding out hope, but........GW....
chaos0xomega wrote: The whole "we need to establish the 40k setting, HH is to stylistically different and is bad marksting" bit hilarious.
No it isn't, because it's distinctly not40k.
They would want a show that can include Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons and Tau. These things are just not relevant to HH.
I wouldn't even make it about something as superficial as which, if any, kinds of Xenos are allowed to show up. 40k is built on how individuals experience the Imperium in the 41st millennium, a besieged theocracy that is dying an agonizingly slow death not least because of its own insane workings. That Imperium simply doesn't exist during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy, with all the thematic shifts that implies. Horus Heresy might as well be a knock-off setting.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
chaos0xomega wrote: The whole "we need to establish the 40k setting, HH is to stylistically different and is bad marksting" bit hilarious.
No it isn't, because it's distinctly not40k.
They would want a show that can include Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons and Tau. These things are just not relevant to HH.
That's hilarious, you must be a xenos player kind of guy to think GW cares about ensuring representation of any xenos.
As a Tyranid fan I'm not expecting live action Xenos except possibly Eldar because you can do them with a tall actor and pointy ears. Most of the other Xenos require extensive face makeup and massive bodywork or lots of CGI systems. Heck Tyranids need way more.
Not impossible, but not something you go for in a pilot live action.
Maybe it's just because I've read more novels set in the HH than 40k universe, but I do think HH as a universe would be easier to get across to an audience than 40k.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Maybe it's just because I've read more novels set in the HH than 40k universe, but I do think HH as a universe would be easier to get across to an audience than 40k.
HH would have less topics that could be misjudged or interpreted, either accidentally or deliberately as problematic. But the imperium of the HH era is still highly repressive, xenophobic etc. Will be very interesting to see how that is portrayed and received.
Just because it's Amazon and they're a big company doesn't mean GW are going to just not bother approaching things cautiously either, they have no idea how its actually going to turn out at this point and its clearly a big new thing for them. Rushing straight into handing over the license to everything right away wouldn't be a good idea.
Well no, you just write a different origin for those characters instead. Sure people would love that.
I'd be intrigued what people who think the two licenses are different feel about where the lines are. Can we include characters with origins in the Heresy at all? Can you include them but not reference their history? Include them and give them any history *except* the Heresy one.
I'm fascinated by how people think this works, that you license a whole setting except for the origin of that setting. It's very different to just licensing specific characters and setting for a video game as the scope is small enough you can just define exactly what it is, but I'd love to see how you define 40K overall as distinct from HH.
chaos0xomega wrote: The whole "we need to establish the 40k setting, HH is to stylistically different and is bad marksting" bit hilarious.
No it isn't, because it's distinctly not40k.
They would want a show that can include Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons and Tau. These things are just not relevant to HH.
That's hilarious, you must be a xenos player kind of guy to think GW cares about ensuring representation of any xenos.
You keep ignoring the very real fact that gws business is not built around the HH setting and their shops are not geared around HH stories.
They have 40k as their core business and the HH is a prequel. Your argument is extremely blinkered on one narrow measure of success while ignoring GWs core buisness model. They didn't rearrange everything they sell because the HH books sold well.
40k is still their core setting and until their business model shifts there is no reason at all to assume they will spend their time in the silmarillion of 40k as the live action introduction to that universe.
And yet for the past 20 years GWs #1 literary priority was producing and marketing the Horus Heresy series rather than 50-70 book (lost count) 40k epic.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that anyone who casually falls in love with Horus Heresy Space Marines can likely be convinced to buy 40K Space Marines within a very short span of time of walking into a GW or hobby store.
Also if you look in general book stores they often stock a good range of HH books whilst almost everything else from GW is either just not present or is a scattered mishmash of random titles here and there. HH is most certainly well understood outside of GW's core market.
That said I still think something on Eisenhorn or the Imperial Guard or such is more likely to get produced first for a live action show. I just can't see Amazon going full on into anything 40K that involves armies and lots of Xenos (or even very few Xenos unless its Eldar or perhaps Tau); or requires multiple Space Marine suits and whole armies.
It's not that those things cannot be done, but for Live action those are big complex things to work with and it just feels like GW offers so many options that allow for smaller scale story telling that can be more sane to approach.
As big as GW are they are NOT the Lord of the Rings.
Just because it's Amazon and they're a big company doesn't mean GW are going to just not bother approaching things cautiously either, they have no idea how its actually going to turn out at this point and its clearly a big new thing for them. Rushing straight into handing over the license to everything right away wouldn't be a good idea.
Well no, you just write a different origin for those characters instead. Sure people would love that.
There are very, very few things from the Horus Heresy that are of such significant direct relevance to 40k that they'd be outright necessary to include if those characters show up in something 40k. You don't need to know the exact specifics of Abadon's or Guilliman's or the Lions backstory during the Horus Heresy to be able to have a good portrayal of the character in 40k.
I'd be intrigued what people who think the two licenses are different feel about where the lines are. Can we include characters with origins in the Heresy at all? Can you include them but not reference their history? Include them and give them any history *except* the Heresy one.
I'm fascinated by how people think this works, that you license a whole setting except for the origin of that setting. It's very different to just licensing specific characters and setting for a video game as the scope is small enough you can just define exactly what it is, but I'd love to see how you define 40K overall as distinct from HH
It isn't as hard to define as you're making out. What has been said within in a piece of work that's for 40k is 40k. What's stated in Horus Heresy related media is Horus Heresy. You could include a character and their history if it has shown up in 40k.
40k and the Horus Heresy are obviously connected to each other and part of the same overall universe, but there's not an inseparability where you can't portray one without needing to have the exact specifics of the other as well. There's a 10,000 year difference between the two and little that has direct relevance from one to the other, there are clear distinctions between them and they're for the most part their own separate settings, that's how GW treats them on the whole. You can get into 40k without reading anything about the Horus Heresy beyond what's been said about it in 40k material, or the other way around.
It's no different from making something set in the Star Wars original trilogy era without the prequels. Or the LOTR without the Silmarillion. Or Age of Sigmar without WHFB lore. They're part of the same universe, aspects of it can have relevance, but its not necessary to have the license to those backstories to do the later era.
I knew a lot of people who weren’t into GW but bought into the Horus Heresy series. Back when the HH series were NYT bestsellers. Back when there was hype for the new Horus Heresy that spread through other Sci Fi boards so that even Star Trek and Star Wars nerds wanted to be part of the conversation. Back before Black Library killed all that by changing their release strategy, more than 10 years ago.
For years the HH series has been a by-word for bloated, excessive storylines, greedy publishing, and disillusionment. Perfect for a Rings of Power style series.
There's no reason to expect xenos in this show. They certainly aren't gw's primary focus.
Marines are.
We can be sure marines are in,
Xenos? Much less so.
No Xenos? So who do the Space Marines fight? Each other? Would lead back to HH.
"They certainly aren't gw's primary focus." - It's not up to them if they've sold the rights is it?
Personally, I really enjoyed the story of the first few HH books. Would make a great series of rather expensive movies, but not sure it's TV stuff.
I can see it being some kind of Imperial guard show. All the viewers are "but I thought Warhammer was space marines", then one appears in the final episode. Much like Luke in the Force awakens. lol
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They could easily do something like a Genestealer cult rising on a planet, give it some Alien vibes and then last couple of episodes it's all going wrong but luckily the Marines appear at the end to save the day - big shooty battle lots of fireworks aren't they the best buy these models the end.
Characters to include - weird admech who just wants to love, an Enforcer who used to be in the Guard who knows what's going on when they see all these people with funny lumps on their heads. The Governor who is just a prick the whole time. Maybe an Eldar turns up in one episode and acts enigmatically.
I also worry about them making the Imperium seem "nice". A great thing to do would be to make it seem like the cultists are doing the right thing. They are fighting the despotic Imperium. It's just their message gets twisted by Grima Tyranidtongue and suddenly everyone has extra arms and so on.
Case closed, there's your 10 episode series.
Also it's set in a city but they have to go to somewhere weird on the planet in episode 3 or 4.
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