That's been confirmed now. So I'm wondering what it's gonna be like for the various Daemonic factions.

Looking at Death Guard for my Nurgle Daemons...

Shadow Of Chaos being replaced by Contagion is actually something I'm pretty chill with. I'll miss regenerating Plaguebearers and Nurglings, but -1 Toughness is a nice debuff to enemies.
And the Detachment rules aren't half-bad either.

I'm tentatively hopeful it'll be good.

I'm not sure how it would work for non aligned Legions. No Daemons for Black Legion and Wordbearers?

I’d assume you’ll be able to ally them in.
Will that happen? Maybe.

As someone who bought his first Plaguebearers and Beast of Nurgle together with his first Plague Marines only to find out there were no ally rules at all in 5th edition... I'm happy about it as that's they way I always imagined my army to play and now I only need one codex.
Will be interesting to see what it means for the detachments, so far (8th and 9th) they gave the DG 7 detachments, each with a specialization within their army, not mentioning daemons at all.

I guess for the Undivided Legions we'll return to 8th or 5th edition style of some Daemon basics in the CSM codex (Be'lakor + troops probably).

I'm not so sure Cabal of Sorcerers would work so well. I mean, sure it'd be easy to give Cabal points to Heralds and Lords of Change, but I'm not sure it fits the theme/fluff for them to be part of the coven.

Perhaps each Legion gets TWO army rules? The existing army rule and Shadow of Chaos?

 BorderCountess wrote:
I'm not so sure Cabal of Sorcerers would work so well. I mean, sure it'd be easy to give Cabal points to Heralds and Lords of Change, but I'm not sure it fits the theme/fluff for them to be part of the coven.

Perhaps each Legion gets TWO army rules? The existing army rule and Shadow of Chaos?

Daemon Primarchs likely to be the secret winners as strats are more likely to hit their keyword(s).

 BorderCountess wrote:
I'm not so sure Cabal of Sorcerers would work so well. I mean, sure it'd be easy to give Cabal points to Heralds and Lords of Change, but I'm not sure it fits the theme/fluff for them to be part of the coven.

Perhaps each Legion gets TWO army rules? The existing army rule and Shadow of Chaos?

Well, the Sons already have a ton of units that don't really work with Cabal of Sorcerers. (See: every vehicle.) So it wouldn't be that weird to just have the daemons not tie into CoS.

That said, I feel like it would be easy to have them tied to CoS without just giving them cabal points. Off the top of my head, you could:

* Keep shadow of chaos, but now it generates Cab Points instead of anything else. Or lowers the cost of rituals cast by sorcerers wholly within the shadow.
* Have some rituals that only target daemons. I'm thinking restoring lost daemons to a squad as you summon forth reinforcements.
* Empower daemons that are near a sorcerer when he casts a ritual.

Generally, I'm really glad to see daemons getting folded in. It might be enough to have me break out my Slaaneshi marines again. And the playstyles of daemons and their marine counterparts just seems so intuitive in a lot of cases.

Slaanesh gives you fast, expendable melee hordes to be backed up by fire support from your noise marines.
Tzeentch gives you splitting hordes of horrors to make up for the small numbers of the rubricae.
Nurgle gives you chewy fodder to go with yourelite squads with special weapons and your artillery tank support.
Khorne is probably the least interesting (because almost all Khorne units are pretty one-note), but marines bringing some tank busting guns is nice, and the daemons provide deepstriking options so you can threat overload the enemy even harder.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:
I'm not so sure Cabal of Sorcerers would work so well. I mean, sure it'd be easy to give Cabal points to Heralds and Lords of Change, but I'm not sure it fits the theme/fluff for them to be part of the coven.

Perhaps each Legion gets TWO army rules? The existing army rule and Shadow of Chaos?

Well, the Sons already have a ton of units that don't really work with Cabal of Sorcerers. (See: every vehicle.) So it wouldn't be that weird to just have the daemons not tie into CoS.

That said, I feel like it would be easy to have them tied to CoS without just giving them cabal points. Off the top of my head, you could:

* Keep shadow of chaos, but now it generates Cab Points instead of anything else. Or lowers the cost of rituals cast by sorcerers wholly within the shadow.
* Have some rituals that only target daemons. I'm thinking restoring lost daemons to a squad as you summon forth reinforcements.
* Empower daemons that are near a sorcerer when he casts a ritual.

Generally, I'm really glad to see daemons getting folded in. It might be enough to have me break out my Slaaneshi marines again. And the playstyles of daemons and their marine counterparts just seems so intuitive in a lot of cases.

Slaanesh gives you fast, expendable melee hordes to be backed up by fire support from your noise marines.
Tzeentch gives you splitting hordes of horrors to make up for the small numbers of the rubricae.
Nurgle gives you chewy fodder to go with yourelite squads with special weapons and your artillery tank support.
Khorne is probably the least interesting (because almost all Khorne units are pretty one-note), but marines bringing some tank busting guns is nice, and the daemons provide deepstriking options so you can threat overload the enemy even harder.

One thing I'd be worried about is some sort of arbitrary limiter - if your Warlord is Space Marine, you can include 250/500/750 Demons. If your warlord is Demons you can only include 250/500/750 Space Marines.

Breton wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:
I'm not so sure Cabal of Sorcerers would work so well. I mean, sure it'd be easy to give Cabal points to Heralds and Lords of Change, but I'm not sure it fits the theme/fluff for them to be part of the coven.

Perhaps each Legion gets TWO army rules? The existing army rule and Shadow of Chaos?

Well, the Sons already have a ton of units that don't really work with Cabal of Sorcerers. (See: every vehicle.) So it wouldn't be that weird to just have the daemons not tie into CoS.

That said, I feel like it would be easy to have them tied to CoS without just giving them cabal points. Off the top of my head, you could:

* Keep shadow of chaos, but now it generates Cab Points instead of anything else. Or lowers the cost of rituals cast by sorcerers wholly within the shadow.
* Have some rituals that only target daemons. I'm thinking restoring lost daemons to a squad as you summon forth reinforcements.
* Empower daemons that are near a sorcerer when he casts a ritual.

Generally, I'm really glad to see daemons getting folded in. It might be enough to have me break out my Slaaneshi marines again. And the playstyles of daemons and their marine counterparts just seems so intuitive in a lot of cases.

Slaanesh gives you fast, expendable melee hordes to be backed up by fire support from your noise marines.
Tzeentch gives you splitting hordes of horrors to make up for the small numbers of the rubricae.
Nurgle gives you chewy fodder to go with yourelite squads with special weapons and your artillery tank support.
Khorne is probably the least interesting (because almost all Khorne units are pretty one-note), but marines bringing some tank busting guns is nice, and the daemons provide deepstriking options so you can threat overload the enemy even harder.

One thing I'd be worried about is some sort of arbitrary limiter - if your Warlord is Space Marine, you can include 250/500/750 Demons. If your warlord is Demons you can only include 250/500/750 Space Marines.

I'm not sure there's any particular reason to put that sort of limit in place. If you're rolling the factions together entirely, then you just have to balance their datasheets internally. I can't think of a strong fluff reason for the chaos marine to daemon ratio to need to lean strongly one way or the other if they're basically just one unified faction.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

I'm not sure there's any particular reason to put that sort of limit in place. If you're rolling the factions together entirely, then you just have to balance their datasheets internally. I can't think of a strong fluff reason for the chaos marine to daemon ratio to need to lean strongly one way or the other if they're basically just one unified faction.

I don't think there's a reason either. But its a mechanic GW is leaning hard into - Imperial Agents, and even more so on point the Aeldari with Corsairs and Ynnari.

Breton wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

I'm not sure there's any particular reason to put that sort of limit in place. If you're rolling the factions together entirely, then you just have to balance their datasheets internally. I can't think of a strong fluff reason for the chaos marine to daemon ratio to need to lean strongly one way or the other if they're basically just one unified faction.

I don't think there's a reason either. But its a mechanic GW is leaning hard into - Imperial Agents, and even more so on point the Aeldari with Corsairs and Ynnari.

GW need to work out wtf to do with eldar, they're 4 factions in 1 book almost but without a models range almost. Ynnari needs something for them to be worth splitting out, or they need to stop being an "army", same with harlequins as well. Agents of the Aeldari would work really well here with a few extra kits.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:
I'm not so sure Cabal of Sorcerers would work so well. I mean, sure it'd be easy to give Cabal points to Heralds and Lords of Change, but I'm not sure it fits the theme/fluff for them to be part of the coven.

Perhaps each Legion gets TWO army rules? The existing army rule and Shadow of Chaos?

Well, the Sons already have a ton of units that don't really work with Cabal of Sorcerers. (See: every vehicle.) So it wouldn't be that weird to just have the daemons not tie into CoS.

That said, I feel like it would be easy to have them tied to CoS without just giving them cabal points. Off the top of my head, you could:

* Keep shadow of chaos, but now it generates Cab Points instead of anything else. Or lowers the cost of rituals cast by sorcerers wholly within the shadow.
* Have some rituals that only target daemons. I'm thinking restoring lost daemons to a squad as you summon forth reinforcements.
* Empower daemons that are near a sorcerer when he casts a ritual.

Generally, I'm really glad to see daemons getting folded in. It might be enough to have me break out my Slaaneshi marines again. And the playstyles of daemons and their marine counterparts just seems so intuitive in a lot of cases.

Slaanesh gives you fast, expendable melee hordes to be backed up by fire support from your noise marines.
Tzeentch gives you splitting hordes of horrors to make up for the small numbers of the rubricae.
Nurgle gives you chewy fodder to go with yourelite squads with special weapons and your artillery tank support.
Khorne is probably the least interesting (because almost all Khorne units are pretty one-note), but marines bringing some tank busting guns is nice, and the daemons provide deepstriking options so you can threat overload the enemy even harder.

One thing I'd be worried about is some sort of arbitrary limiter - if your Warlord is Space Marine, you can include 250/500/750 Demons. If your warlord is Demons you can only include 250/500/750 Space Marines.

I'm not sure there's any particular reason to put that sort of limit in place. If you're rolling the factions together entirely, then you just have to balance their datasheets internally. I can't think of a strong fluff reason for the chaos marine to daemon ratio to need to lean strongly one way or the other if they're basically just one unified faction.

Yet its something that GW has already done in a number of codexes. If they are calling the book "Codex: Thousand Sons" then the expectation is you play an army representative of Thousand Sons and not Tzaangor or cultist hordes. Poor internal balamce resulted in padt iterations of TSons looking more like the latter, which resulted in limitations to make people actually play the army as TSons.

My expectation is that as these books release GW will update the Grotmas detachments to supercede those restrictions, thus the main detachments will remain legion-flavored but the option for cultist mobs and daemonic hordes will be enabled within specific detachments.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Yet its something that GW has already done in a number of codexes. If they are calling the book "Codex: Thousand Sons" then the expectation is you play an army representative of Thousand Sons and not Tzaangor or cultist hordes. Poor internal balamce resulted in padt iterations of TSons looking more like the latter, which resulted in limitations to make people actually play the army as TSons.

My expectation is that as these books release GW will update the Grotmas detachments to supercede those restrictions, thus the main detachments will remain legion-flavored but the option for cultist mobs and daemonic hordes will be enabled within specific detachments.

I suspect its going Codex: (God) instead of Codex Thousand Sons etc. And you'll have the Aeldari style restrictions - if your Army Faction is X you can have 250/500/750 of Y. If your Army faction is Y you can have 250/500/750 of X. Or potentially a recyle of the old Custodes rules - If your Army Faction is X, you can have 1 unit of Y for every unit of X kind of thing i.e. you must always have more X units than Y units.

GW making a good decision with this.

I think they're just going to lump them all together without restrictions. The traitor legions have always been a little light on unit variety and the individual demons have generally not had enough to support an entire army mono god. Combining them gets a real codex that stands alone quite well and creates the opportunity for detachments that are marine or demon focused. No reason to limit them when they're already only really working by spamming a limited set of units.

Breton wrote:
I suspect its going Codex: (God) instead of Codex Thousand Sons etc. And you'll have the Aeldari style restrictions - if your Army Faction is X you can have 250/500/750 of Y. If your Army faction is Y you can have 250/500/750 of X. Or potentially a recyle of the old Custodes rules - If your Army Faction is X, you can have 1 unit of Y for every unit of X kind of thing i.e. you must always have more X units than Y units.

The image from the LVO preview thing would imply the books are still named after the Legions.

 Insectum7 wrote:
GW making a good decision with this.

Don't worry, I'm sure they'll find a way to mess it up.

Dudeface wrote:


GW need to work out wtf to do with eldar, they're 4 factions in 1 book almost but without a models range almost. Ynnari needs something for them to be worth splitting out, or they need to stop being an "army", same with harlequins as well. Agents of the Aeldari would work really well here with a few extra kits.

Harlequins requires barely any effort to keep the faction players happy; a Combat Patrol pdf via Warcom or White Dwarf, and introducing a proper Troupe Master model. Need something minor for a new codex? An alternative Death Jester with an anti-armour weapon.

I'm sure Harlequins will also give performances on Necromunda once in a while, maybe with other business in town...

 waefre_1 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
GW making a good decision with this.

Don't worry, I'm sure they'll find a way to mess it up.

I'm sure they will too.

For starters all the Legions (and Daemons and Renegades and Cultists) should really just all be in one book again.

But having the potential spread of each god combined in one tome is an improvement.

 Dysartes wrote:

Breton wrote:
I suspect its going Codex: (God) instead of Codex Thousand Sons etc. And you'll have the Aeldari style restrictions - if your Army Faction is X you can have 250/500/750 of Y. If your Army faction is Y you can have 250/500/750 of X. Or potentially a recyle of the old Custodes rules - If your Army Faction is X, you can have 1 unit of Y for every unit of X kind of thing i.e. you must always have more X units than Y units.

The image from the LVO preview thing would imply the books are still named after the Legions.

The Legion names are far more marketable. I'd not be surprised though if we eventually see them named "The <legion name> of <god name>" for copyright purposes (which is also likely why we're getting rid of something as generic as "Chaos Demons").

SamusDrake wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


GW need to work out wtf to do with eldar, they're 4 factions in 1 book almost but without a models range almost. Ynnari needs something for them to be worth splitting out, or they need to stop being an "army", same with harlequins as well. Agents of the Aeldari would work really well here with a few extra kits.

Harlequins requires barely any effort to keep the faction players happy; a Combat Patrol pdf via Warcom or White Dwarf, and introducing a proper Troupe Master model. Need something minor for a new codex? An alternative Death Jester with an anti-armour weapon.

I'm sure Harlequins will also give performances on Necromunda once in a while, maybe with other business in town...

As someone who has played pure harlies a fair bit recently, I don't really want most of that.

A combat patrol would be fine, but Combat Patrol as a game is more like tutorial mode for actual 40k, so not something I see myself using much in the long run. If anything, Kill Team would be a better fit as it would give the designers room to provide some juicy, fluffy rules for each player of the troupe and an excuse to do some alternative sculpts for characters.

A troupe master model is absolutely not needed. Getting one for "free" in the troupe box is fantastic and comes with plenty of cool bits as-is. I absolutely do not want to add $35 do the price of someone's starting army just for the sake of standardizing how models are sold. An anti-tank DJ would be neat.

What I really want for harlequins is just a return to more flavorful rules and options in general. Like, pivotal roles were a fantastic way to get more mileage out of your models and to give your army some personality or to lean into the fluff that you're using a specific saedath for a battle. The bespoke rules for caresses/kisses/embraces were really evocative even if they were a bit clunky. Give me that stuff back. And maybe a detachment so that they can feel properly tricksy/survivable when being fielded on their own.

But more realistically, Agents of the Aeldari seems like a good way to handle clowns/pirates/maybe dinosaurs and white seers if they wanted to add those things down the road. Options for splashing in a few such units as allies, and then maybe a detachment or two for fielding each of those as a standalone army.

Ynnari probably make the most sense as a detachment in either of the 'dexes with rules for fielding units from each subfaction together. So basically what they'r elikely doing in the upcoming codex. I don't really want a bunch of ynnari-specific units so much as I just want like, special rule swaps for the datasheets available to them. Have wyches lose Power From Pain and gain Strength From Death. Maybe have a farseer swap out Fortune for something more death-themed or just give him access to spooky powers as an Enhancement.

I am actually ok with Daemons being rolled into the deity specific legions. I know for my TS, I have not read a major battle in the fluff where they don't use daemons as primary troops, which makes sense as there is not a whole lot of TS rubrics etc. I am pretty sure the same is true for the other deity legions. It will also expand the roster for those codex, without needing a large model release, which is not going to happen for TS or DG any time soon.

I think if GW leaves the daemon index with the grotmas calendar detachments, with the index data sheets for multi-god armies or allies for CSM/Chaos Knights, I think it will be a pretty good state. I mean with the index and grotmas there is basically a daemon codex already released. If they drop a detachment for Bel'Kor that lets him take like 50% CSM with daemons that would be great and, yea that would basically be a codex. If they don't keep a way for CSM/Chaos Knights/multi-god armies to play without needing all four books or something stupid like that it will be a shame, but GW has been doing much much better lately than in the past with decisions like this (i.e. see, bringing back deathwatch).

I am looking forward to the new books, can't wait to play my TS again (although need to play with some eldar first).

I wonder if there are going to be two daemon prince profiles in one codex, one for the Marine side and one for the daemon side?

The implementation of this is everything.

I have some fears- I'm afraid of losing Daemon units- especially the recent additions (Infernal Enrapturess, Contorted Epitome). Right now, the Contorted Epitome doesn't show up for 40k Daemons in the Webstore, so perhaps the trimming has already begun.

Arbitrary point limits are also another barrier we could do without.

I'm curious about the Crusade content. The Great Game Crusade rules from the 9th ed Daemons book were cool, and might now be lost. The content in 10th EC may favour the Legion and neglect the daemons, in much the same way the Core Tau Crusade content was light on Kroot. They were included... But subordinate (until White Dwarf released pure Kroot Crusade rules).

Time will tell, and it may not take long. I'm likely to buy in for the EC box since there isn't an Eldar one (though the new Eldar Combat Patrol might be good).

Some of the models vanishing might just be them moving to new slots in advance of the EC release and update to the store structure or just the store being badly laid out. The Contorted Epitome is still in AoS.


I'll be honestly I think some demon models have suffered from being jointly released for AoS and 40K at times with fantasy taking a lead. Eg a bunch of them just feel "odd" in a sci-fi setting. I've said this before if things like the Slaanesh Chariot got a 40K version that was upgraded parts or totally unique it might improve the model a lot over something that clearly works in fantasy but feels strange in sci-fi.


Still losing things is never nice for fans of a faction so I hope Slaanesh fans don't lose models in the transfer.

You aren't wrong, and I am fine losing some of those out-of-place daemon units IF they are replaced with something at least as cool.

My fear is that they just ditch them and give us nothing in exchange. Like "There's no need to have more than 10 Legion units and 10 daemon units since they are so often used together" whereas if they kept separate books they'd be more inclined to put real development into each of those forces rather than being content with two half armies.

Well I think for 40K and AoS there was a big move initially to focus a lot on the mortal followers in terms of getting models out there. In both cases the games lacked mortal follower models (AoS just didn't have any at all whilst 40K has a couple of upgrade parts that are super old and that's it).

Now granted the AoS did update a bunch of demon models like the fiends and Greater Demon to new updated models. And there were a bunch of leaders added too.


But in general most of the core models were mortal followers.

I figure that next edition or at least the next semi-big "its not just 1 hero model" update for the demons could well swing back to the demons side. Where you've the option of updating some older sculpts and/or adding some totally new demonic types to the roster.

Tygre wrote:
I'm not sure how it would work for non aligned Legions. No Daemons for Black Legion and Wordbearers?

If its anything like how it used to be, legions like Night Lords won't have demon options, where Black Legion and Wordbearers will be able to take demons of any mark.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I wonder if there are going to be two daemon prince profiles in one codex, one for the Marine side and one for the daemon side?

I was wondering if the Primarchs were going to be able to double dip.

I wouldn't expect points ratios for marines vs cultists vs daemons in the god books- I expect that the focus will be done by detachments. There are 6 in the EC book, so I'd expect to see 2-3 detachments that mainly benefit marines, 1-2 that mainly benefit daemons, and 1-2 that encourage a mixed list.

PenitentJake wrote:The implementation of this is everything.

I have some fears- I'm afraid of losing Daemon units- especially the recent additions (Infernal Enrapturess, Contorted Epitome). Right now, the Contorted Epitome doesn't show up for 40k Daemons in the Webstore, so perhaps the trimming has already begun.

Arbitrary point limits are also another barrier we could do without.

I'm curious about the Crusade content. The Great Game Crusade rules from the 9th ed Daemons book were cool, and might now be lost. The content in 10th EC may favour the Legion and neglect the daemons, in much the same way the Core Tau Crusade content was light on Kroot. They were included... But subordinate (until White Dwarf released pure Kroot Crusade rules).

Time will tell, and it may not take long. I'm likely to buy in for the EC box since there isn't an Eldar one (though the new Eldar Combat Patrol might be good).

Why would daemons lose units in 40k, especially the newest, better looking stuff? I can see a refresh happening for some units, like the older daemonette units and the Soul Grinder, but not being completely deleted.

Overread wrote:Some of the models vanishing might just be them moving to new slots in advance of the EC release and update to the store structure or just the store being badly laid out. The Contorted Epitome is still in AoS.


I'll be honestly I think some demon models have suffered from being jointly released for AoS and 40K at times with fantasy taking a lead. Eg a bunch of them just feel "odd" in a sci-fi setting. I've said this before if things like the Slaanesh Chariot got a 40K version that was upgraded parts or totally unique it might improve the model a lot over something that clearly works in fantasy but feels strange in sci-fi.


Still losing things is never nice for fans of a faction so I hope Slaanesh fans don't lose models in the transfer.

Almost all of the daemon range looks odd in a science fiction setting, with the exception of the Soul Grinder. That's the point, they aren't futuristic aliens that keep up with the times in terms of weapons and other technology, but creatures birthed from humanity's greatest fears that go back millions of years. They're stuck in time because they were created long before anything that we would consider modern technology, and reflect a mixture humanity's emotions and trauma from long ago, as well as the aesthetics of mankind's earliest conflicts, strife and machinations.

Eh I think its more that GW took a fantasy army and put them in 40K and then never really updated their visual design language/added any new models in a very very very long time.

We have demons with guns - they are all over the place. Furthermore there's no reason that demons can't pick up a bow and arrow or a musket or a cannon etc... Things that are also around in the fantasy setting.


It's also the style of miniature. Even for close combat the offerings feel odd at times - I bring up the Slaanesh Chariot often because its awesome for fantasy you can see it mowing its way through the rank and file; as soon as it hits Tau battlesuits and Space Marines though it doesn't quite visually work. Sure great against swarms of Termagaunts and Imperial Guard - but other stuff not so much.


Again I think the greater issue is that they were fantasy armies transposed into 40K and then never given any new design language/options. Possibly because of some mandate that all the mdoels had to be cross game compatible so they just went for a lot of close combat/magic units that work in both games without messing up the visual language of either game.

With the separate codex per demon faction and with GW being even more militant with their internal division of game departments I could see it being a time where demons would start to get game specific models between AoS and 40K. And in my view that works great for both games - it gives something with just that touch of looking unique.

We already have models like the Demon Prince which can have a gun and sword look to them - so extending that out to more models would be great to see

 Wyldhunt wrote:


As someone who has played pure harlies a fair bit recently, I don't really want most of that.

A combat patrol would be fine, but Combat Patrol as a game is more like tutorial mode for actual 40k, so not something I see myself using much in the long run. If anything, Kill Team would be a better fit as it would give the designers room to provide some juicy, fluffy rules for each player of the troupe and an excuse to do some alternative sculpts for characters.

A troupe master model is absolutely not needed. Getting one for "free" in the troupe box is fantastic and comes with plenty of cool bits as-is. I absolutely do not want to add $35 do the price of someone's starting army just for the sake of standardizing how models are sold. An anti-tank DJ would be neat.

I don't really like the CP mode, but it's another thing that makes Harlequins players excluded. Boarding Actions is where they shine, but in that mode you don't get vehicles, leaving a small Harlequins force at 500 in regular play which some are now annoyingly picky about playing at exactly 1K, 2K or 3K sizes.

Here's the thing about the Troupe Master - its no longer a Troupe Master in that kit, but now officially a Lead player. In the 8th edition box it was specifically a Troupe Master, but since the 9th edition reboxing its a Lead Player - a unit leader. All one has to do is look at the Prime in the Tyranid Warriors kit, and the Winged Prime, to see where they're going with this...

But getting back to Daemons, I'm relishing the thought of starting a Thousand Sons army, as I have two boxes worth of Horrors and I love them, but I can see GW pulling them in favour of new 40K-specific models that leaves them back in AoS country. At the moment I'm hoping they just introduce the AOS sprues with 40K packaging...

Breton wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I wonder if there are going to be two daemon prince profiles in one codex, one for the Marine side and one for the daemon side?

I was wondering if the Primarchs were going to be able to double dip.

I'm not sure I follow this at all. Why would they need two of things for a single codex?

 LunarSol wrote:

Breton wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I wonder if there are going to be two daemon prince profiles in one codex, one for the Marine side and one for the daemon side?

I was wondering if the Primarchs were going to be able to double dip.

I'm not sure I follow this at all. Why would they need two of things for a single codex?

Well I assume the Daemon Prince this is Faction/Keyword related. My wonder is if they're going to let the Daemon Primarchs be Daemons AND Space Marines at the same time.

I assume all of this stuff is falling under a single faction keyword. No reason to create complications by splitting them out.

Worrying times for green/blue cultists.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Worrying times for green/blue cultists.

Yup, they want you to play one of the god aligned legions or Black Legion....i feel for IW, AL, DA, NL players

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Worrying times for green/blue cultists.

Please elucidate for those of us, what this means.

Thank you.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Worrying times for green/blue cultists.

Please elucidate for those of us, what this means.

Thank you.

i assume theyre implying that TS and DG will lose access to cultists because the EC reveal mentioned that some basic CSM units would be in the codex but omitted cultists.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Worrying times for green/blue cultists.

Please elucidate for those of us, what this means.

Thank you.

i assume theyre implying that TS and DG will lose access to cultists because the EC reveal mentioned that some basic CSM units would be in the codex but omitted cultists.

Cool, thanks!

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Worrying times for green/blue cultists.

Please elucidate for those of us, what this means.

Thank you.

i assume theyre implying that TS and DG will lose access to cultists because the EC reveal mentioned that some basic CSM units would be in the codex but omitted cultists.

Plus, if each Legion is getting a light infantry 'troop' unit in the form of lesser daemons, the role of cultists gets duplicated.

Plus plus GW aren't going to add Accursed Cultists or the Dark Communion, so I can well imagine that they'll want to create a greater separation between their product lines ('Don't use the same models in multiple armies! Buy it again!') You can see this with the two pink not-Legionnaire units.

I've long wanted cultists to be less of a fodder unit for god-aligned factions and more of a support unit. Let the banner in a chaos squad basically be a homing beacon for deepstrikers to land closer to the enemy (Treating cultists like a transport, sorta). Let tzeentch cultists perform magic rituals to generate cabal points or put up protective wards. Let nurgle cultists putrify areas where they're slain causing clouds of flies to form and act as cover. Let khorne cultists empower daemons with ritual sacrifices. Let slaaneshi cultists empower nearby daemons while under half strength (representing their agony echoing in the warp.)

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Plus, if each Legion is getting a light infantry 'troop' unit in the form of lesser daemons, the role of cultists gets duplicated.

Plus plus GW aren't going to add Accursed Cultists or the Dark Communion, so I can well imagine that they'll want to create a greater separation between their product lines ('Don't use the same models in multiple armies! Buy it again!') You can see this with the two pink not-Legionnaire units.

i disagree, lesser demons and cultists are NOT on the same level

It really depends how GW wants the armies to be. In AoS they certainly have lesser and greater mortal followers. GW might decide that the God Specific factions get some god-specific cultists and then Generic Chaos has other Cultists. Or they might just stick to them being chock full of marines with demons as the chaff at the front etc

It might even vary a bit army to army. There's a lot of ways they can take it and they've only really just started

Yeah, I'm not sure this is good thing.

On the stream they listed out units EC will keep (so that people would go out and buy them), and a lot of stuff was gone, just like the other god-specific lists.

The lack of big guns (predators, forgefiend, and even hellbrutes) was noticeable.

Fiends and Seekers fill in for bikes, warp talons and raptors in terms of speed if not weapons.

It makes me wonder what the other god-specific armies will lose in the changeover.

I don't think they'll get much- I suspect DG will only get the new character, for example. And now I doubt if WE will get bikes or berserkers on juggers since they're getting the daemons on juggers and flesh hounds.

I also won't be surprised when the time comes and Codex Marines lose access to old tanks, and the only army with predators and etc are non-god Chaos Marines.

I suspect that pink Forgefiends will actually stay, purely because we know that Maulerfiends are staying, and GW won't trust consumers not to build the kit wrong.

I don't think it's folding/squatting the Daemons Codex.

They said some Drukhari datashseets are in Aeldari, so you have easy reference for the Ynnari-detachment.

EC will have a Brood Brothers / Final Day-style detachment for combining Daemons and some datasheets for reference.

If GSC had been a later Codex, they probably would've printed some Astra and Tyranid datasheets in there as well for reference, as seems to be the new norm now.


Don't think Drukhari, Astra, Tyranid or Daemons Codex on their own get cancelled over this.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Worrying times for green/blue cultists.

Please elucidate for those of us, what this means.

Thank you.

i assume theyre implying that TS and DG will lose access to cultists because the EC reveal mentioned that some basic CSM units would be in the codex but omitted cultists.

I didn't know they got cultists! I rather assumed poxwalkers and tzaangor were the equivalent for them...

Voss wrote:
Yeah, I'm not sure this is good thing.

On the stream they listed out units EC will keep (so that people would go out and buy them), and a lot of stuff was gone, just like the other god-specific lists.

The lack of big guns (predators, forgefiend, and even hellbrutes) was noticeable.

Fiends and Seekers fill in for bikes, warp talons and raptors in terms of speed if not weapons.

It makes me wonder what the other god-specific armies will lose in the changeover.

I don't think they'll get much- I suspect DG will only get the new character, for example. And now I doubt if WE will get bikes or berserkers on juggers since they're getting the daemons on juggers and flesh hounds.

I also won't be surprised when the time comes and Codex Marines lose access to old tanks, and the only army with predators and etc are non-god Chaos Marines.

I don't think it was an exhaustive list, just some examples off the top of their head. I'm sure some things will be gone but I'm equally sure there are units not listed in the reveal that will be available to EC. Predators are the most likely since every other Legion gets them and the Chaos vehicle sprue has upgrade bits for all the gods.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I've long wanted cultists to be less of a fodder unit for god-aligned factions and more of a support unit. Let the banner in a chaos squad basically be a homing beacon for deepstrikers to land closer to the enemy (Treating cultists like a transport, sorta). Let tzeentch cultists perform magic rituals to generate cabal points or put up protective wards. Let nurgle cultists putrify areas where they're slain causing clouds of flies to form and act as cover. Let khorne cultists empower daemons with ritual sacrifices. Let slaaneshi cultists empower nearby daemons while under half strength (representing their agony echoing in the warp.)

It's not a good detachment, but I love Chaos Knights eating cultists for rules.

very fond of this choice. WE is anemic enough that the addition of demons will help them out a lot, even if they don't get new models with the codex (they really need them, tho...)

ksons, also. i think demons are going to mesh well with the existing tzaangors subtheme

and i'm curious how this is going to affect the new army in EC, since we won't have anything prior to compare to. but i think slaanesh especially will compliment marines in style

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
very fond of this choice. WE is anemic enough that the addition of demons will help them out a lot, even if they don't get new models with the codex (they really need them, tho...)

ksons, also. i think demons are going to mesh well with the existing tzaangors subtheme

and i'm curious how this is going to affect the new army in EC, since we won't have anything prior to compare to. but i think slaanesh especially will compliment marines in style

It actually makes me worried/sad. Adding Demons to WE is just a bandaid, not a cure. They've gone on a spree adding/splitting new factions, but not really doing a full model release. Look at all the "new" factions and how much variety and option they have at 2K. Custodes have something like 9 Non-Character-Non-Transport-Non-"Forgeworld" units. Votann have seven. Thousand Sons have 16 - but a lot of them (somewhere around 11) are Black Legion stuff painted blue. And on and on and on. I'd like to see - in addition to/more than/separately from this merger - I'd like to see GW take a pause for the cause and flesh out all of these "new" factions with a pretty hefty infusion of fluffy datasheets to make them "complete".

Breton wrote:
It actually makes me worried/sad. Adding Demons to WE is just a bandaid, not a cure.

I'm sure that the one-dimensional melee faction can be patched up real good by the addition of a melee monster, five squint-and-they're different melee characters, a melee infantry, two melee cavalry, and one gun.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Breton wrote:
It actually makes me worried/sad. Adding Demons to WE is just a bandaid, not a cure.

I'm sure that the one-dimensional melee faction can be patched up real good by the addition of a melee monster, five squint-and-they're different melee characters, a melee infantry, two melee cavalry, and one gun.

But the melee infantry have swords, not axes!

Look, if you want variety, Khorne is not for you.

Tygre wrote:
I'm not sure how it would work for non aligned Legions. No Daemons for Black Legion and Wordbearers?

There should be unaligned lesser daemons, IMO, like the (apparently defunct?) Chaos furies. Also I'm not aware of Be'lakor being aligned with any specific Chaos god.

I'm not too familiar with traitor legion lore... Are there any of them that want as little to do with daemons and Chaos gods as possible, and are only loosely aligned with Chaos in an enemy-of-my-enemy kind of way? If so, I guess they could lack access to daemon options, though I don't think it'll hobble them all that much in gameplay terms. Some armies do quite well with a more limited model range.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I've long wanted cultists to be less of a fodder unit for god-aligned factions and more of a support unit.

Agreed. In fact I could see them as an army in their own right, because right now Chaos is almost only Marines.

Genestealer cults are, in many ways, what Chaos cults should have been. A ragtag bunch of rebels and renegades who make do with repurposed equipment and dark "gifts" from their masters.

.

 BorderCountess wrote:
Look, if you want variety, Khorne is not for you.

Oh, come on, there's lots of variety.

You have your Kharn the Betrayer Close Combat list, you have your Angron, the Red Angel Close Combat list, and you have your Kharn and Angron Close Combat list.

If I win the lottery, I'm building a World Eaters army that is all ranged combat.

-Guardsman- wrote:

Tygre wrote:
I'm not sure how it would work for non aligned Legions. No Daemons for Black Legion and Wordbearers?

There should be unaligned lesser daemons, IMO, like the (apparently defunct?) Chaos furies. Also I'm not aware of Be'lakor being aligned with any specific Chaos god.

I'm not too familiar with traitor legion lore... Are there any of them that want as little to do with daemons and Chaos gods as possible, and are only loosely aligned with Chaos in an enemy-of-my-enemy kind of way? If so, I guess they could lack access to daemon options, though I don't think it'll hobble them all that much in gameplay terms. Some armies do quite well with a more limited model range.

In both settings, Be'lakor was the First Daemon Prince. He was the first champion that all four Powers were able to get behind. Then he failed and was shunned, and now he seeks to depose all of them.

As for anti-daemon Legions, the Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion are the least interested in Daemons and Gods. Individual warriors or squads (or maybe even warbands) might choose to venerate one God over the others, but generally they're more interested in rabble-rousing than outright Chaos worship.

Word Bearers, on the other hand...

 BorderCountess wrote:
Look, if you want variety, Khorne is not for you.

If you want THAT kind of variety. And Khorne isn't always melee - they still have Tanks, the Lord of Skulls, and so forth - short range shooters wouldn't be out of line.

Breton wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:
Look, if you want variety, Khorne is not for you.

If you want THAT kind of variety. And Khorne isn't always melee - they still have Tanks, the Lord of Skulls, and so forth - short range shooters wouldn't be out of line.

And, if you're not opposed to Legends, you've got plenty of decent long range firepower available.
I like my melee supported by a nice mix of 30k armor: Spartans, Sicaran Venators, & sometimes a Typhon. + a few Termites* for my bezerkers/Jackie's to ride about in.
Khorne isn't particular about how you separate your foes from their blood/skulls...Skulls.... just that you do.

*in our last Crusade I got one of my Termites elevated to Legendary status xp wise.
We knew early on when it scored 5! Unit kills in one game that it was destined for greatness.

 BorderCountess wrote:
Look, if you want variety, Khorne is not for you.

of course there's variety. WE have eightbound, who are the heavy brutes. demons, in that role, have cavalry. plus the bloodthirster, so there's another option in the super-heavy slot. the gameplan is still run forward and hit things, but you have different units, and different unit combinations, to work with. a third core infantry to join zerkers and cultists is another thing that will grant lists new options

WE is so small and devoid of variety that people managed to mathematically perfect a list earlier this edition. more options, even if the gameplan remains exactly the same

You get blood AND skulls, what more could you want?

 Overread wrote:
Eh I think its more that GW took a fantasy army and put them in 40K and then never really updated their visual design language/added any new models in a very very very long time.

We have demons with guns - they are all over the place. Furthermore there's no reason that demons can't pick up a bow and arrow or a musket or a cannon etc... Things that are also around in the fantasy setting.


It's also the style of miniature. Even for close combat the offerings feel odd at times - I bring up the Slaanesh Chariot often because its awesome for fantasy you can see it mowing its way through the rank and file; as soon as it hits Tau battlesuits and Space Marines though it doesn't quite visually work. Sure great against swarms of Termagaunts and Imperial Guard - but other stuff not so much.


Again I think the greater issue is that they were fantasy armies transposed into 40K and then never given any new design language/options. Possibly because of some mandate that all the mdoels had to be cross game compatible so they just went for a lot of close combat/magic units that work in both games without messing up the visual language of either game.

With the separate codex per demon faction and with GW being even more militant with their internal division of game departments I could see it being a time where demons would start to get game specific models between AoS and 40K. And in my view that works great for both games - it gives something with just that touch of looking unique.

We already have models like the Demon Prince which can have a gun and sword look to them - so extending that out to more models would be great to see

I would love to see more shooting daemons in 40k to complement the traditional ones, similar to what we see in the Doom games.

Well, it seems that the slaanesh daemons in EC codex are without all of their chariots and heralds, including several named characters. Putting the four monotheist CSM units into the four monotheist indexes has stopped my Word Bearers bothering with trying to get them to work. If my daemons get spread across four monotheist codices with half the range absent, I’m out. GW’s business model is increasingly resembling a crypto rug pull - half the goblin units I’ve painted this past years are absent from the GSG book. My FLGS says there’s literally no school agers buying warhammer, it now exists to scam whales and to hell with recruiting new generations of customers.

The poor showing of daemons in the EC codex gives me hope that there will still be a proper daemons codex in the future.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
The poor showing of daemons in the EC codex gives me hope that there will still be a proper daemons codex in the future.

Given it looks like the limited selection for Dark Eldar Ynnari in the new eldar codex, it seems likely that a proper daemon codex will exist.

Unless GW decide for some reason to remove whole lines of plastic kits for daemons for some reason - but only in 40k.

 Hellebore wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
The poor showing of daemons in the EC codex gives me hope that there will still be a proper daemons codex in the future.

Given it looks like the limited selection for Dark Eldar Ynnari in the new eldar codex, it seems likely that a proper daemon codex will exist.

Unless GW decide for some reason to remove whole lines of plastic kits for daemons for some reason - but only in 40k.

It wouldn't be without precedent. The Twins, for example, are only in Age of Sigmar. And they finally yoinked the Soul Grinder OUT of their fantasy setting.

I thought during Grotsmas they stated that they wouldn't be getting a codex in 10th at least. It's possible they're planning something for 11th but it seems like the vast majority of stuff cut is online only. Seems like they might just be looking to cut Daemons WAY back in 40k.

Maybe or perhaps they are going back to the old days of not every army getting a new codex in an edition because 3 years really isn't much time at all to update every single army every single edition over and over and its starting to break down for GW

 Overread wrote:
Maybe or perhaps they are going back to the old days of not every army getting a new codex in an edition because 3 years really isn't much time at all to update every single army every single edition over and over and its starting to break down for GW

I'd be happy with little index updates and not a giant codex overhaul. IK did alright with no codex in this edition.

 Overread wrote:
Maybe or perhaps they are going back to the old days of not every army getting a new codex in an edition because 3 years really isn't much time at all to update every single army every single edition over and over and its starting to break down for GW

I just don't think GW is interested in undivided daemons as an army. We've really moved towards a stronger army branding and core model line for each faction built mostly around newer sculpts. Now that there's a dedicated line for the 4 main Legions that represent the various gods, I can see them wanting to focus on curating that as the main identity for the god branding much like they've done in Sigmar.

Honestly whilst its a huge blow to existing demon fans and such I could welcome GW giving Slaanesh and other Demon armies more of a sci-fi focus and more unique models separate from AoS

Even as a big slaanesh fan I've always found things like the chariots really odd in 40K as a concept. Because once you basically leave mowing down Imperial Guard or Tyranid Gaunts they just don't feel like they fit a futuristic setting even as demonic warp infused models.

Chariots being gone seems fairly obvious. I'm a little more surprised by some of the newer characters that got cut, but I can see wanting to keep the Epic Heroes to Sigmar and lean into the hordes of monsters angle for daemons. Slaanesh was always going to be sparse so I'm more curious to see what happens to the more established branches of Chaos.

 LunarSol wrote:
Chariots being gone seems fairly obvious. I'm a little more surprised by some of the newer characters that got cut, but I can see wanting to keep the Epic Heroes to Sigmar and lean into the hordes of monsters angle for daemons. Slaanesh was always going to be sparse so I'm more curious to see what happens to the more established branches of Chaos.

I think its likely just more of separating the narration and story of Slaanesh and creating more gaps in the line to then fill in later with their own unique demon models. Heck perhaps we'll even see core models like Demonettes get their own 40K and AoS update models in the future.

 LunarSol wrote:
I thought during Grotsmas they stated that they wouldn't be getting a codex in 10th at least.

[Citation required]

 Dysartes wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I thought during Grotsmas they stated that they wouldn't be getting a codex in 10th at least.

[Citation required]

Yeah, I've been looking for it and not finding it. A few of the locals remember it too and I'm curious if its something implied during the video or something.

I do wish they'd not put important bits in the videos that don't make it into the written article - not saying that's happened here, but it is annoying when it does happen.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I thought during Grotsmas they stated that they wouldn't be getting a codex in 10th at least.

[Citation required]

Yeah, I've been looking for it and not finding it. A few of the locals remember it too and I'm curious if its something implied during the video or something.

The Mandela Effect in action?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I thought during Grotsmas they stated that they wouldn't be getting a codex in 10th at least.

[Citation required]

Yeah, I've been looking for it and not finding it. A few of the locals remember it too and I'm curious if its something implied during the video or something.

The Mandela Effect in action?

I'm sure I heard it was the Mandala Affect... >->


It would be crazy to see them drop daemon units entirely from the army while they're still for sale. There's nothing wrong with having chariots et al in the army. It seems very odd. Unless they're planning an entire revamp and 40k-ifying units in some way - but it's not like a chariot is out of place in the 40k universe with its cavalry etc... Daemon bikers, daemon gun monsters or something?

 Hellebore wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I thought during Grotsmas they stated that they wouldn't be getting a codex in 10th at least.

[Citation required]

Yeah, I've been looking for it and not finding it. A few of the locals remember it too and I'm curious if its something implied during the video or something.

The Mandela Effect in action?

I'm sure I heard it was the Mandala Affect... >->


It would be crazy to see them drop daemon units entirely from the army while they're still for sale. There's nothing wrong with having chariots et al in the army. It seems very odd. Unless they're planning an entire revamp and 40k-ifying units in some way - but it's not like a chariot is out of place in the 40k universe with its cavalry etc... Daemon bikers, daemon gun monsters or something?

Chariots aren't REALLY for sale anymore. They're webstore exclusive and out of stock on the webstore.

That's a reach, LunarSol, and you know it - many units are both "Online only" and "Temporarily out of stock" on the GW store.

Chaos demons should be part of each god army. Endogamy is good.

 Dysartes wrote:
That's a reach, LunarSol, and you know it - many units are both "Online only" and "Temporarily out of stock" on the GW store.

It's not really. It's how GW has been removing things. The ability to buy them on the store dries up, then they don't appear in a codex, and then they go away. If it was online only and in the codex I would expect it to return. When its not in the codex, I have my doubts. Even when it IS, I'm not going to be surprised to learn there's a resculpt in the pipeline.

Having a handful of datasheets built into the codex for the one detachment that allows 50% demons, and having the full index to allow for 25% demons for all others aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I realize it's probably an unhealthy dose of hopium, but it's possible that both will exist at the same time.

 BorderCountess wrote:
Having a handful of datasheets built into the codex for the one detachment that allows 50% demons, and having the full index to allow for 25% demons for all others aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I realize it's probably an unhealthy dose of hopium, but it's possible that both will exist at the same time.

I'm afraid that the 40k maxim: "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment," is the go to response for this... but I don't understand why GW wouldn't have a chaos daemon codex... it has a built in fan base, a chunk of models to sell, and typically plays different than most other armies.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
That's a reach, LunarSol, and you know it - many units are both "Online only" and "Temporarily out of stock" on the GW store.

It's not really. It's how GW has been removing things. The ability to buy them on the store dries up, then they don't appear in a codex, and then they go away. If it was online only and in the codex I would expect it to return. When its not in the codex, I have my doubts. Even when it IS, I'm not going to be surprised to learn there's a resculpt in the pipeline.

Normally I'd agree with this statement, but supply has been out of stock on the web store for several months for several kits for all armies - kits that are current in new codex releases etc.

I don't know how much longer the supply and manufacturing issues in general will last for GW. It's copium I know but until stock stabilises in general I'm not going to count daemons out just yet

 BorderCountess wrote:
Having a handful of datasheets built into the codex for the one detachment that allows 50% demons, and having the full index to allow for 25% demons for all others aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I realize it's probably an unhealthy dose of hopium, but it's possible that both will exist at the same time.

Slaanesh was always going to be a weird first book to get a read on this. They don't have a lot of stuff and the stuff they have is very Old World designed. They've needed a revamp for a while and its just been a matter of deciding what to do with the thorny subject matter. I think we'll have a better idea what's ahead when we see what happens with the gods that have seen more modern updates.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:
Having a handful of datasheets built into the codex for the one detachment that allows 50% demons, and having the full index to allow for 25% demons for all others aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I realize it's probably an unhealthy dose of hopium, but it's possible that both will exist at the same time.

I'm afraid that the 40k maxim: "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment," is the go to response for this... but I don't understand why GW wouldn't have a chaos daemon codex... it has a built in fan base, a chunk of models to sell, and typically plays different than most other armies.

Honestly, daemons as a standalone faction have always felt odd to me, and I say that as someone with a small daemon army.

For the longest time, most of each god's units were just slightly faster or beefier variations on the basic troop, all with similar special rules. Daemonettes, seekers, and fiends were basically all just Rending attack delivery systems, usually with a neat rule on fiends. And then everyone had soul grinders and their greater daemons. There's a little more variety now, but monogod armies still seem pretty limited on variety.

And multi-god armies run into lore issues. If all the gods cooperating in one place is a coordinated event, then it's an extremely rare sort of event that we don't see often in the lore. It's like having an entire faction/codex representing a time that a few marine chapters teamed up. And if it's meant to represent a random warp incursion, then it's harder to justify having your same characters be present in each battle which makes it tougher to write ongoing lore for your army's characters. That was arguably compounded back when daemonic gifts were random (can't model iron skin or a special melee weapon if you don't know you're going to have it) and by 10th's general lack of customization.

So it feels like daemons have kind of struggled as a faction over the years. If you want to lean into a monogod theme, they really feel like they're missing the tools and variety from their mortal buddies. Plus you miss out on having cultist Steve explode and turn into a portal for daemons in reserves to walk through. If you want to play multi-god, you're still weirdly short on tools but also you're probably going to end up either playing an arguably unfluffy monster mash or else spamming personality-less mooks and generally feeling like an NPC faction.

I guess my first concern is that, if Emperor's Children is representative of what we can expect for demons, then it means that all-demon armies (even mono-god) are no longer possible. Then there's idea of what happens to demonic allies in other Chaos armies, CSM and Chaos Knights.

I imagine we'll get answers next weekend.

All demon armies are expected to continue under the grotsmas detachments.

Current rumor mill is the next dataslate has a CSM detachment in it for using Belakor.

I certainly have questions on what happens to Knights in general though, particularly after the Imperial version got bumped off the roadmap.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
...It's like having an entire faction/codex representing a time that a few marine chapters teamed up...

Can we not give GW ideas, please?

 LunarSol wrote:


I certainly have questions on what happens to Knights in general though, particularly after the Imperial version got bumped off the roadmap.

They continue using their index.

 LunarSol wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:
Having a handful of datasheets built into the codex for the one detachment that allows 50% demons, and having the full index to allow for 25% demons for all others aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I realize it's probably an unhealthy dose of hopium, but it's possible that both will exist at the same time.

Slaanesh was always going to be a weird first book to get a read on this. They don't have a lot of stuff and the stuff they have is very Old World designed. They've needed a revamp for a while and its just been a matter of deciding what to do with the thorny subject matter. I think we'll have a better idea what's ahead when we see what happens with the gods that have seen more modern updates.

And they don't have much of a 30/40K footprint in the Black Library.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Honestly, daemons as a standalone faction have always felt odd to me, and I say that as someone with a small daemon army.

I think they make more sense in a 30K setting. We're not really seeing a whole lot of invading a Daemon World anymore - especially in a playable fashion i.e. Ventris and Pasanius going Leroy Jenkins doesn't really count.

Breton wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Honestly, daemons as a standalone faction have always felt odd to me, and I say that as someone with a small daemon army.

I think they make more sense in a 30K setting. We're not really seeing a whole lot of invading a Daemon World anymore - especially in a playable fashion i.e. Ventris and Pasanius going Leroy Jenkins doesn't really count.

But they keep playing roles in the lore. When Calgar arrived at Vigilus, a horde of Slaanesh demons appeared on his bridge and kicked his ass. During Arks of Omen, Farsight accidentally summoned a host of Khorne demons and almost fell to Chaos.

I can certainly see an argument for dividing the Four Powers (seeing a guy win a tournament with the Scintillating Legion detachment but including a single unit of Plaguebearers made me ill), a but a wholesale culling of demons and making them unable to be fielded outside of single detachments sounds a little overkill.

I think too much is made of chaos not coordinating when they fight. It's not really relevant.

They don't have to all agree to work toward the same outcome to exploit the same warp rift and enter the real world to cause some mayhem.

And the other thing is that while all 4 chaos gods working together is rare, 2 or even 3 is not. Because the only real opponent of a chaos god is its siblings and that's how the game is really played, each god trying to one up the others and forming and breaking alliances endlessly to do so.

A cavalcade of daemons from all 4 gods showing up at once can legitimately be an adversarial army, where they are all their to show up the others and claim more souls, so it's like the Dark Eldar wager detachment where they're trying to one up one another.

Not liking each other and outright trying to kill each other on sight are different things.

I don't know. It seems like daemon incursions usually come in two major flavors:

* Intentional incursions, usually as the plot of some big bad daemon, usually resulting in mostly one god's forces showing up. So think most of the daemon fights vs ynnari, any story where the plot is about one of the chaos gods trying to bust through, or any story where some event or mortal actions has caused the area to resonate with one chaos god. Think Khorne showing up on especially brutal battlefields, Slaanesh showing up at locations tied to pleasure/luxury in the Caine novels, that "enlightened" planet where everyone ended up marking themselves for tzeentchian daemon possession.

* Uncontrolled incursions. Think warp drives exploding, gellar fields failing, or generally any time an unalligned portal to the warp is opened.

In the former case, it feels weird to have that lone nurgle unit hanging out in an otherwise slaaneshi army. In the latter, it feels weird to have like, multiple greater daemons just so happen to stumble upon that portal simultaneously and sort of steal eachothers' thunder by being their simultaneously. Which is extra likely to happen because the faction doesn't have a lot of datasheets, and the greater daemons represent most of your anti-tank capabilities.

Granted, we do have *some* instances of multiple gods working together (Fracture of Biel-Tan; the general fluff about nurgle daemons showing up in the wake of khornate bloodshed), but I'm not sure how common that is.

I also feel like trying to fit all four gods into one faction means that you're kind of tying your hands when it comes to the army-wide rule. Instead of going deep on some kind of flavorful god-specific gimmick, you have to do something relatively generic like the shadow of chaos that can work with multi-god armies.

Tzeentch daemons have an unfair leg up with their shooty daemons. If WE don't get the skull cannon they still have fast Flesh Hounds.

Death Guard are gonna get... more slow T5 infantry. Wowzers. The Beast of Nurgle is pretty sweet for an objective sitter though.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Tzeentch daemons have an unfair leg up with their shooty daemons. If WE don't get the skull cannon they still have fast Flesh Hounds.

An assumption.
Or they could just lose access to them because.... GW being GW

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Tzeentch daemons have an unfair leg up with their shooty daemons.

So you get into combat with them, since they can't fight worth a damn. Like T'au, but with fewer shooting shenanigans.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I don't know. It seems like daemon incursions usually come in two major flavors:

* Intentional incursions, usually as the plot of some big bad daemon, usually resulting in mostly one god's forces showing up. So think most of the daemon fights vs ynnari, any story where the plot is about one of the chaos gods trying to bust through, or any story where some event or mortal actions has caused the area to resonate with one chaos god. Think Khorne showing up on especially brutal battlefields, Slaanesh showing up at locations tied to pleasure/luxury in the Caine novels, that "enlightened" planet where everyone ended up marking themselves for tzeentchian daemon possession.

* Uncontrolled incursions. Think warp drives exploding, gellar fields failing, or generally any time an unalligned portal to the warp is opened.

In the former case, it feels weird to have that lone nurgle unit hanging out in an otherwise slaaneshi army. In the latter, it feels weird to have like, multiple greater daemons just so happen to stumble upon that portal simultaneously and sort of steal eachothers' thunder by being their simultaneously. Which is extra likely to happen because the faction doesn't have a lot of datasheets, and the greater daemons represent most of your anti-tank capabilities.

Granted, we do have *some* instances of multiple gods working together (Fracture of Biel-Tan; the general fluff about nurgle daemons showing up in the wake of khornate bloodshed), but I'm not sure how common that is.

I also feel like trying to fit all four gods into one faction means that you're kind of tying your hands when it comes to the army-wide rule. Instead of going deep on some kind of flavorful god-specific gimmick, you have to do something relatively generic like the shadow of chaos that can work with multi-god armies.

I think part of that is army structure dictating fluff to a degree.

Chaos being chaos it shouldn't be so easily regimented or formal. The daemons are all enacting highly instinctual actions - even tzeentch's actions are innate behaviours, the chaos gods are slaves to the emotions that create them as much as they are gods over them.

And while an army on the table needs structure to play effectively, I think that there's a limit for daemons especially. Khorne's daemons will fight each other almost as much as they will the other pantheons, because fighting is in their make up. But we don't need to worry about animosity rules when one bloodletter unit kills more guys than another.

I understand the challenge for a generic army rule, but to me that should reflect what is common about the daemons - being from the warp and being of warp energy. The shenanigans that their shared origin offers would be the same, and then you'd look at either unique unit rules or mono god detachment structures to reflect that aspect.



IMO the MORTAL penchant for drawing lines between things and categorising them ala the cult marines is having an undue effect on how the natural state of chaos gets depicted. Chaos is virtually infinite and while there are a billion daemons smacking each other on one side of a warp rift, there will still be a few million pouring out collectively, because the gods can maintain an infinite number of battlefields and allying preferences simultaneously - khorne teams of with tzeentch on this battlefield while simultaneously wailing on tzeentch on a billion others, while tzeentch is allied with nurgle on one of those and wailing on him in a billion more. all at once, forever.


The only constant is chaos and GW have IMO over the last 20 years done a really bad job of keeping the reality of daemons and chaos visible. Instead genercising them into a just another army.

I think it's a mistake to make them an 'army' and apply normal 'army rules' to them. They are more a sentient force of nature that pushes through cracks when they see it or cause cracks to open and are a whirling dervish of mutual destruction, schemes, pacts and all in the endless game.

So what do you think of the new Daemons Index?

I just focused on the Nurgle bits.
Pretty minor changes for me.

I celebrate them for keeping the Enchantress and Epitome, and I curse them for ditching Karanak.

I thought it was cool to see Heretic Astartes as 25% allies in a Daemon detachment instead of the other way around.

This IS confirmation, 100% that there is no Daemon dex for 10th, and I feel like being a mere PDF leaves a list more open to further marginalization to a greater extent than a dex... but at least we CAN keep playing Daemon armies if we want to.

The Shadow detachment is quite neat. And it looks like you can use it without Bel'kor if you like, although he would be the most competitive way to use it. But if I want to play with just my daemons and some CSM this is something that I can do. I think the Daemons digital codex could have been handled worse.

This is pretty much the happy medium I expected. I suppose not getting a full codex is a bit of a bummer (and weird choices for what went to Legends - Karanak has a model in production, the Blue Scribes don't), but it means they can still be allied into CSM and Chaos Knights or run on their own.

Plus, the new detachment can give all my demons -1 to be hit. Tasty!

 BorderCountess wrote:
(and weird choices for what went to Legends - Karanak has a model in production, the Blue Scribes don't),

Meanwhile, over in AoS.....
The Blue Scribes are in Legends. And have been since v4 launched.

Just realized the lack of a dex means no bespoke Crusade content for Daemons.

The 9th ed stuff will probably be compatible enough with minor changes; White Dwarf might also step up to remedy this sad state of affairs.

 PenitentJake wrote:
Just realized the lack of a dex means no bespoke Crusade content for Daemons.

The 9th ed stuff will probably be compatible enough with minor changes; White Dwarf might also step up to remedy this sad state of affairs.

Oooh, I didn't think of that.

I'm still gonna run Chaos in our next Crusade league, because all my books should be out by then.

They’ve done crusade content in white dwarf for a couple of index factions already haven’t they, sure I saw votaan stuff in there. Maybe demons will get that.

Yeah Votann, Kroot, Sisters and GSC have all had White Dwarf Crusade content. I suspect the Votann stuff will be duplicated when they get their dex- I don't have the 9th ed Votann dex, but I think I remember Goonhammer saying the WD article was basically updated 9th... Which is what many dexes have received.

The Kroot, Sisters and GSC stuff was really cool because it added to the stuff from their dexes.

I do think WD will probably step up for Daemons, but adapting stuff from 9th is a fallback if they don't. According to the Goon review of EC Crusade content, Daemons are explicitly excluded from Crusade because they are treated as summoned entities, ie. you might have a unit of Daemonettes in your Crusade roster, but that represents someone summoning Daemonettes for the duration of the battle every time you include that unit in a list, therefore XP and Battlescars aren't tracked.

Based on that, we can't assume any of the god-aligned books will include their Daemons in Crusade.

WD or 9th ed homebrewed to work with 10th seem like the only potential options.

After thinking further, I'm of the mind that GW intended to effectively squat demons as an army for 40k, relegating them to a minor support role for the Cult Legions.

However, then the Deathwatch Incident happened, and GW decided to mostly reverse course on that plan.

 BorderCountess wrote:
After thinking further, I'm of the mind that GW intended to effectively squat demons as an army for 40k, relegating them to a minor support role for the Cult Legions.

However, then the Deathwatch Incident happened, and GW decided to mostly reverse course on that plan.

Kind of agree, I also think given the age of the kits they're going to get a redesign in the future into fantasy/future specific forms.

I see it as GW steadily trying to separate their brand lines. This seems to be a really big focus right now. We've seen them draw a hard line between AoS and Old World and I figure this is GW starting the process of drawing a big line between 40K and AoS. Which really means impacting demons as they were the only crossover army in the first place.

Chances are it will still be imperfect - I can't see GW doing things like new Greater Demon models for a LONG time let alone a fully separate release and even the Demon Price was designed to work with both games.

But lower down the list demon kits - esp older ones ripe for update - yeah I can see them getting new models split betewen both games.

I also suspect it comes down to Daemons not really being something they can get a copyright on. Worth noting that Daemons is not an army in Sigmar at all, being sold under more marketable names and unified aesthetics. I think the goal is very much to do the same in 40k.

I'm still a bit baffled by the Deathwatch incident. Like, as a dedicated DW player I was pretty accepting of the goal of the agents book (though not the execution) and honestly they probably had a decent chance of getting away with it if they hadn't..... commissioned multiple pieces of expensive mass market media on par with what they do for Ultramarines?

Like I have to imagine they have something planned for DW long term like a new Kill Team set or something. If they had no plans beyond squatting, I have no idea what they were hoping to accomplish making people aware how cool they are.

 Overread wrote:
I see it as GW steadily trying to separate their brand lines. This seems to be a really big focus right now. We've seen them draw a hard line between AoS and Old World and I figure this is GW starting the process of drawing a big line between 40K and AoS. Which really means impacting demons as they were the only crossover army in the first place.

Chances are it will still be imperfect - I can't see GW doing things like new Greater Demon models for a LONG time let alone a fully separate release and even the Demon Price was designed to work with both games.

But lower down the list demon kits - esp older ones ripe for update - yeah I can see them getting new models split betewen both games.

After what happened to all the HH units, tanks etc it is clear that GW wants the stuff they sell to be for one game only. The demons in faction legion codex is probably the best thing demon players could get. It could get a lot more worse.

 LunarSol wrote:
I also suspect it comes down to Daemons not really being something they can get a copyright on.

There's nothing that they can do to prevent anybody from making look-a-like models of ANY faction - as evidenced by the masses of own-brand Marines, Chaos, Orks, etc. etc. And if GW wanted to get rid of Daemons to prevent copycat sculpts for some reason, they wouldn't be then putting them into the AoS lists.

 LunarSol wrote:
I also suspect it comes down to Daemons not really being something they can get a copyright on. Worth noting that Daemons is not an army in Sigmar at all, being sold under more marketable names and unified aesthetics. I think the goal is very much to do the same in 40k.

So whilst the name "demons" can't be trademarked, you can say the same of Space Marines too. Furthermore GW could easily have changed the name of the codex to something they could trademark more effectively if they were worried about that. I don't think they are, esp since the demons within are all trademarkable. I think this is very much more a case of taking an army that was once cross-game and starting to put a line between the games and the products and getting more variety in styles.

 Overread wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I also suspect it comes down to Daemons not really being something they can get a copyright on. Worth noting that Daemons is not an army in Sigmar at all, being sold under more marketable names and unified aesthetics. I think the goal is very much to do the same in 40k.

So whilst the name "demons" can't be trademarked, you can say the same of Space Marines too. Furthermore GW could easily have changed the name of the codex to something they could trademark more effectively if they were worried about that. I don't think they are, esp since the demons within are all trademarkable. I think this is very much more a case of taking an army that was once cross-game and starting to put a line between the games and the products and getting more variety in styles.

I don't disagree. GW seems pretty happy to be back to calling everything their popular name except the Guard. I suspect now that they've established Space Marines as short for "Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes" the lawyers are happy.

I do think with daemons more than anything its about coherent aesthetics. They want to push Khorne and Tzeench and Nurgle and Slaanesh separately where they can benefit from their strong themes and color schemes. They kind of lose their identity when blended together outside of people already deeply into the line.

The problem is, unlike AoS where the 4 chaos factions are all distinct armies with demons and mortals etc in 40K those for factions are 4 legions, in between are the other generic chaos marines and legions that don’t fit into that so there is a need for either generic demons for them, or some mixing of factions.

Andykp wrote:
The problem is, unlike AoS where the 4 chaos factions are all distinct armies with demons and mortals etc in 40K those for factions are 4 legions, in between are the other generic chaos marines and legions that don’t fit into that so there is a need for either generic demons for them, or some mixing of factions.

AoS has Slaves to Darkness which very much covers the same ground as CSM.

I think from GW's perspective, daemons needs marines more than they need marines to have daemons.

 Overread wrote:
So whilst the name "demons" can't be trademarked, you can say the same of Space Marines too. Furthermore GW could easily have changed the name of the codex to something they could trademark more effectively if they were worried about that.

There was a time where it was titled "Codex: Adeptus Astartes," presumably for this very reason. But since pretty much nobody ever called them that in casual conversation, I'm guessing they just threw their hands in the air and went back to 'Space Marines'.

 LunarSol wrote:

Andykp wrote:
The problem is, unlike AoS where the 4 chaos factions are all distinct armies with demons and mortals etc in 40K those for factions are 4 legions, in between are the other generic chaos marines and legions that don’t fit into that so there is a need for either generic demons for them, or some mixing of factions.

AoS has Slaves to Darkness which very much covers the same ground as CSM.

I think from GW's perspective, daemons needs marines more than they need marines to have daemons.

I’m no AoS player as far as I can see slave to darkness don’t have the god specific demons in, CSM do, and legion specific troops for now like berserkers and noise marines.

Fluff wise they have to account for all the other legions and especially the black legion who align with any god. So to turn all the other chaos legions into slaves to darkness style middle ground is major retcon and pretty much wipes out the other heretic legions.

I’m not saying they are or aren’t going to go like AoS I just think if they do it will cause problems and upset a lot of folks.

 BorderCountess wrote:

 Overread wrote:
So whilst the name "demons" can't be trademarked, you can say the same of Space Marines too. Furthermore GW could easily have changed the name of the codex to something they could trademark more effectively if they were worried about that.

There was a time where it was titled "Codex: Adeptus Astartes," presumably for this very reason. But since pretty much nobody ever called them that in casual conversation, I'm guessing they just threw their hands in the air and went back to 'Space Marines'.

wouldn't be surprised if GW got complaints along the lines of "where are the space marines? all i'm seeing are adeptus astartes"

Andykp wrote:
The problem is, unlike AoS where the 4 chaos factions are all distinct armies with demons and mortals etc in 40K those for factions are 4 legions, in between are the other generic chaos marines and legions that don’t fit into that so there is a need for either generic demons for them, or some mixing of factions.

Could the daemons all fit in Chaos Space Marines, as they are usually the armies that pull use them the most?

Perhaps creating a detachment within CSM that is all Daemons with a CSM sorcerer at its head?

Or does there need to be an Agents of Chaos Codex?

agents of chaos is something i've been pulling for for a while now. would definitely help a lot of issues that chaos is having these days

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
agents of chaos is something i've been pulling for for a while now. would definitely help a lot of issues that chaos is having these days

It would solve a lot of issues. But they would need to stand on their own detachment wise.

Beyond Daemons, what other forces could we expect to see in this hypothetical codex?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
agents of chaos is something i've been pulling for for a while now. would definitely help a lot of issues that chaos is having these days

It would solve a lot of issues. But they would need to stand on their own detachment wise.

Beyond Daemons, what other forces could we expect to see in this hypothetical codex?

chaos guard stuff, chaos beastmen, vashtorr. maybe even chaos cultists (since it would work like the agents of the imperium book, cultists would still be an option for CSM, while also making them an option for every other chaos army that needs them)

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
agents of chaos is something i've been pulling for for a while now. would definitely help a lot of issues that chaos is having these days

It would solve a lot of issues. But they would need to stand on their own detachment wise.

Beyond Daemons, what other forces could we expect to see in this hypothetical codex?

chaos guard stuff, chaos beastmen, vashtorr. maybe even chaos cultists (since it would work like the agents of the imperium book, cultists would still be an option for CSM, while also making them an option for every other chaos army that needs them)

Bringing back the old Lost and the Damned stuff? Maybe toss in some generic CSM for flavor.

I could honestly see this as a book.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
agents of chaos is something i've been pulling for for a while now. would definitely help a lot of issues that chaos is having these days

How do you envision that working better than the current options?
●If I'm playing CSM - I've already got options for using cult marines, demons, & Knights.
●If I'm playing DG/WE/TS -I've already got options for adding demons & Knights.
●If I play EC - there's demons baked into the codex & I've got options for Knights.
●If I'm playing demons? Oh look, I've got rules for adding certain CSM units. And I've got options for knughts.

Lost and the Damned was a great army list, would love to see it return

LotD would be a welcome change

Is there currently rules for traitor guard?

Yes, ish. One of the CSM detachments lets you build around the traitor guard n cultist datasheets, etc

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yes, ish. One of the CSM detachments lets you build around the traitor guard n cultist datasheets, etc

Huh. I assume you have to convert models from the regular Astra Militarum lines?

 Quixote wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yes, ish. One of the CSM detachments lets you build around the traitor guard n cultist datasheets, etc

Huh. I assume you have to convert models from the regular Astra Militarum lines?

You can. Though there is this current kit in the CSM section. https://www.warhammer.com/en-US/shop/kill-team-blooded-2024?queryID=eed37e666df9f8b96f88508538f2db6e
Me? I'm just using a bunch of my old Tallarns from ages ago.

The Sons of Horus Legion Command is also in the CSM section for some reason, despite having no 40k rules or lore equivalent.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
The Sons of Horus Legion Command is also in the CSM section for some reason, despite having no 40k rules or lore equivalent.

I see an alternate sculpt for an Aspiring Champion & a Legionnaire carrying a Chaos Icon....

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
agents of chaos is something i've been pulling for for a while now. would definitely help a lot of issues that chaos is having these days

It would solve a lot of issues. But they would need to stand on their own detachment wise.

Beyond Daemons, what other forces could we expect to see in this hypothetical codex?

chaos guard stuff, chaos beastmen, vashtorr. maybe even chaos cultists (since it would work like the agents of the imperium book, cultists would still be an option for CSM, while also making them an option for every other chaos army that needs them)

I would totally put Cypher into an Agents of Chaos book. Maybe even some other special units, like the Night Lords kill team.

ccs wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
agents of chaos is something i've been pulling for for a while now. would definitely help a lot of issues that chaos is having these days

How do you envision that working better than the current options?
●If I'm playing CSM - I've already got options for using cult marines, demons, & Knights.
●If I'm playing DG/WE/TS -I've already got options for adding demons & Knights.
●If I play EC - there's demons baked into the codex & I've got options for Knights.
●If I'm playing demons? Oh look, I've got rules for adding certain CSM units. And I've got options for knughts.

and this would be a way of ensuring that all of that can be found in a single place, which would make it more simply

 BorderCountess wrote:
After thinking further, I'm of the mind that GW intended to effectively squat demons as an army for 40k, relegating them to a minor support role for the Cult Legions.

However, then the Deathwatch Incident happened, and GW decided to mostly reverse course on that plan.

Eventually they'll learn the lesson. You can only get away with that using the Primaris "Underway Replenishment" plan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BorderCountess wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
agents of chaos is something i've been pulling for for a while now. would definitely help a lot of issues that chaos is having these days

It would solve a lot of issues. But they would need to stand on their own detachment wise.

Beyond Daemons, what other forces could we expect to see in this hypothetical codex?

chaos guard stuff, chaos beastmen, vashtorr. maybe even chaos cultists (since it would work like the agents of the imperium book, cultists would still be an option for CSM, while also making them an option for every other chaos army that needs them)

I would totally put Cypher into an Agents of Chaos book. Maybe even some other special units, like the Night Lords kill team.

Is Cypher still an agent of Chaos? Or is he redeemed?

Breton wrote:


Is Cypher still an agent of Chaos? Or is he redeemed?

He's still in the CSM codex....

Racerguy180 wrote:
LotD would be a welcome change

Legion of the Damned would make a welcome change, this is true - though hopefully not as an excuse to try to get a 40k Ferrus Manus figure of some (ghostly) form.

Breton wrote:
Is Cypher still an agent of Chaos? Or is he redeemed?

As far as I know, he's still Public* Enemy Number One amongst the Dark Angels. Of course, it's an open question of if he was ever truly an Agent of Chaos to begin with... he's like a one-man Alpha Legion in that regard.

I like an agents of chaos book, and lost and the damned is the perfect retro title for it. Someone call GW and let them know we’ve solved it!