Wherever I go, no matter who I talk to, I find a strong dislike of Marneus Calgar. Why is this?

He's leader of the Ultramarines, who are the poster boys for Marines.
He's also a very powerful model that you might see way too often.
And for me personally? The fact that he gets a CP automatically when Abaddon only has a 60% chance to irks me.

●Because he's a Marine
●Because he's sn Ultramarine
●Because of his special rules
●Because opponents probably think he's undercosted
●Because he's a popular choice among UM players. For some reason people think its unreasonable that a player uses a popular/efficient unit in their army since alot of other players also use it.
Generally these complaints come from complete hypocrites who have no issues using whatevers popular/effective in their own forces.
●I suppose some # might also claim to dislike Marnius based on various lore.

ccs wrote:
●Because he's a popular choice among UM players. For some reason people think its unreasonable that a player uses a popular/efficient unit in their army since alot of other players also use it.
Generally these complaints come from complete hypocrites who have no issues using whatevers popular/effective in their own forces.

I don't like seeing Named Characters everywhere. I'm not gonna drag someone for using Calgar, but I'd prefer to see more characters that AREN'T Epic Heroes.

For me it's a combination of the frequency with which we see him on the table (and, frankly, named characters in general), the fact that he (and other Ultramarines) get a disproportionate number of releases, and the stupidly thick plot armor Calgar wears.

Call me crazy, but having a demon sword pierce both of your hearts should be fatal.

The comic series didn't help...

He also got five models already, two alone since 8th edition.

That will rub some people the wrong way, given the amount of special character sculpts some other factions receive - or rather not receive.

Four me it's how many versions of him have been released. I just keep thinking that version four or five could have been Drukhari Beasts instead?

I don't necessarily "dislike" the guy, but I find him kind of boring and Gary Stu-ish.

My inner hipster wants to look down on smurfs in general. He's the former Smurf in Chief, so he gets a standard serving of that hipster ire. He doesn't have anything particularly going on with his backstory. He doesn't have any particularly interesting gimmicks. He's just kind of a +1 version of a chaptain/chapter master (depending on edition).

With Guilliman back, he's not even "the top smurf" anymore. He's just a redundant baby smurf who's technically in charge of the UM, but not really *as* in charge as his daddy. Dante and Logan would be similarly diminished if we suddenly had Sanguinius or Russ back, but at least they have some interesting narrative hooks to begin with.

Also, he punched an Avatar of Khaine to death (with power fists), and that makes my eyes roll even if the avatar was severely weakened first.

 Darnok wrote:
He also got five models already, two alone since 8th edition.

Oh no! 5 models - over the course of 38 years!

Are you aware that my Red Gobbo has 6 models?
And that 5 of them have been released since 2019 (8e+)
I'm sure that it takes just as much time/effort/resources to put out a new Gobbo as it would any other solo infantry figure.
And this is for a model that the vast majority of you (including most Ork players) will never buy or use.
Yet you never hear any complaints about the Gobbo.
So why complain about 2 Calgars in modern times?

Because Marines also get disproportionate attention with other releases too.

Orks don’t.

ccs wrote:

 Darnok wrote:
He also got five models already, two alone since 8th edition.

Oh no! 5 models - over the course of 38 years!

Are you aware that my Red Gobbo has 6 models?
[...]
So why complain about 2 Calgars in modern times?

One of them is a seasonal collectors model, and a running injoke/meme by this point. The other is a regular special character. Not really a fair comparison.

And I assume the complaints only really started after Calgar got his fifth model so relatively soon after the fourth. I get it, he featured in a popular video game and had a new hat there... but why not put his previous model incarantion into the video game in the first place?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Wherever I go, no matter who I talk to, I find a strong dislike of Marneus Calgar. Why is this?

I didn't like, that in 3rd edition, he had no invulnerable save, his weapons were just a storm bolter and power fists, so his best feature, close combat with power fists, made him weak to opponents with power weapons that would negate his 2+ armor save. And his shooting was just 2 shots a turn, so it wasn't a good balance.

I do think his old metal model is really cool though, i have no opinion about his lore, his rules/profile just needed adjusted, chaplains with a rosarius, and force commanders/librarians with an iron halo were more effective in game than marneus

For me it's just that he's extremely boring, like most Marine characters.

 Da Boss wrote:
For me it's just that he's extremely boring, like most Marine characters.

Outside of Helbrect, most Marines aren't bristling with personalities. I went through most of the models available and couldn't even place what the characters were known for.

Unless they were featured in a slew of novels or video games, a lot of em are copy-pasted dudes with a different color scheme and weapon loadout.

My issue is that I see people actively groan when Marneus Calgar is mentioned, but no one gets the same visceral reaction if they talk about Ezekiel, Dante, or Shrike.

Calgar is the epitome of what's wrong with Space Marines.

Helbrecht is a fanatical maniac, Dante literally hates being alive but keeps not dying, Cato Sicarius is a monumental d-bag who gets put in his place and actually grows as a character.

Calgar just does everything and is always on top. He didn't even stay dead when he got wrecked by Abbadon himself.

 Gert wrote:
Calgar is the epitome of what's wrong with Space Marines.

Helbrecht is a fanatical maniac, Dante literally hates being alive but keeps not dying, Cato Sicarius is a monumental d-bag who gets put in his place and actually grows as a character.

Calgar just does everything and is always on top. He didn't even stay dead when he got wrecked by Abbadon himself.

Pretty much this. Most special characters don't appear "on-screen" enough and/or have too little written about them to really have much known personality to speak of. The named characters I tend to like are the ones who have a cool gimmick and/or are evocative in some way.

Dante being crazy old kind of raises some evocative questions about the guy. Logan's beef with the inquisition and other limited screen time paints him as kind of an interesting personality. The phoenix lords are each paragons of a martial philosophy that we know little enough about for it to be fun speculating. Trazyn is a collector. Kheradruakh was collecting skulls for mysterious purposes. Vulkan Hestan was treasure hunting. Farsight was The Sword Battle Suit. Shadowsun is The Stealth Suit Character. The daemonifuge is a psyker in an army of psyker haters, and she has a harlequin sidekick.

Guilliman is just... the guy who's in charge of the default vanilla flagship army. Having two power fists instead of one isn't much of a quirk or personality. The only story I was ever kind of looking forward to reading about the guy was to see if there was any tension between him and Guilliman once Guilliman returned and basically rendered him redundant and/or challenged the hyper-strict way the smurfs had been treating the Codex for the last 10k years. But as far as I'm aware, they kind of just hand waived all that away.

It's not that Calgar is someone I actively dislike. I'm just deeply uninterested in everything about him. He's what you'd get if cardboard and vanilla ice cream had a baby.

there are a few interesting things about Calgar for me, but they've all been downplayed/ignored:
1) Calgar isn't Calgar, he took the name of another aspirant. Mentioned once in the comic, never brought up again.

2) The Gauntlets being reforged Chaos weapons. Boring McBoringface of the Boring Marines walking around with Chaos Weapon relics would be an interesting juxtaposition, but the Gauntlets' origins are never of any consequence whatsoever. Same with all the reclaimed Chaos Weapon relics.

3) Calgar's feelings of failure and inadequacy since Guilliman's return as stated in Dark Imperium. Again, a moment of interesting depth that is never remarked upon again.

There's potential in Calgar, there are opportunities to make him interesting, but for a character given so much attention both in terms of lore and models, none of these opportunities are expanded upon, and at this point I'd rather just stop hearing about him in favor of other characters who have had less of the spotlight and are more nuanced and interesting

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
For me it's just that he's extremely boring, like most Marine characters.

Outside of Helbrect, most Marines aren't bristling with personalities. I went through most of the models available and couldn't even place what the characters were known for.

Unless they were featured in a slew of novels or video games, a lot of em are copy-pasted dudes with a different color scheme and weapon loadout.

My issue is that I see people actively groan when Marneus Calgar is mentioned, but no one gets the same visceral reaction if they talk about Ezekiel, Dante, or Shrike.

I kinda like Helbretch mostly because its the best Space Marine loyalist model ever released. But yeah, I dont find any SM character that much interesting to begin with. Grimaldus would be one of the only exceptions. I think thats my biggest issue with 40k in general,... most special characters, or at least the ones that get most attention are just very bland. There's some exceptions of unique ones like Saint Celestine, Fabius Vile, Eisenhorn and Yarrick (xenos races have a better variety) but considering the majority of the focus is on SM loyalist legions, not even successors, its underwhelming.

On the other hand, WH Fantasy had such a great variety of interesting named characters across ALL factions. Which is why random DLC's sold surprisingly well in WH Total War, even the most random ones. For 40k, I normally stick with my own to lead my armies.

ccs wrote:
...So why complain about 2 Calgars in modern times?

Karandras.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Wherever I go, no matter who I talk to, I find a strong dislike of Marneus Calgar. Why is this?

Because you never talk to me! I f***ing love Calgar. That guy has two power fists! TWO! I bought the really old Calgar sitting on a throne mini at my LGS and committed to Ultramarines for life at that moment.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

ccs wrote:
...So why complain about 2 Calgars in modern times?

Karandras.

What, you dont appreciate GW holding something back for you to get excited for in 11e??

Remember that time he literally manhandled a Gauss Pylon and used it to shoot down a Tesseract Vault?
Because I remember.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Remember that time he literally manhandled a Gauss Pylon and used it to shoot down a Tesseract Vault?
Because I remember.

Wait... what?

Warzone: Damnos


And then Sicarius dunks on the C'tan that falls out with a vortex grenade.
How do you like your Necrons now, puny Xenos players?!

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Warzone: Damnos


And then Sicarius dunks on the C'tan that falls out with a vortex grenade.
How do you like your Necrons now, puny Xenos players?!

Man, that sounds amazing. I need to read more.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Warzone: Damnos


And then Sicarius dunks on the C'tan that falls out with a vortex grenade.
How do you like your Necrons now, puny Xenos players?!

Man, that sounds amazing. I need to read more.

Still doesn't beat the Skaven shooting down a moon.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

ccs wrote:
...So why complain about 2 Calgars in modern times?

Karandras.

I'm not sure it ever got confirmed, but I like the story that Karandras is missing because the guy who "sculpted" the Striking Scorpions kit left without "sculpting" Karandras, and no-one noticed the Phoenix Lord wasn't done until it was almost time for the Scorpions to be released.

Sometimes it ain't the fault of the Marines, sometimes it's just GW never failing to take the opportunity to miss an opportunity...

 Dysartes wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

ccs wrote:
...So why complain about 2 Calgars in modern times?

Karandras.

I'm not sure it ever got confirmed, but I like the story that Karandras is missing because the guy who "sculpted" the Striking Scorpions kit left without "sculpting" Karandras, and no-one noticed the Phoenix Lord wasn't done until it was almost time for the Scorpions to be released.

Sometimes it ain't the fault of the Marines, sometimes it's just GW never failing to take the opportunity to miss an opportunity...

GW forgor

ccs wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

ccs wrote:
...So why complain about 2 Calgars in modern times?

Karandras.

What, you dont appreciate GW holding something back for you to get excited for in 11e??

If they fix the to-wound table, un-squat my Balestrikes, let me use cool Mechanicum models in 40k, and bring Karandras back I promise I'll pretend to be excited for 11e.

I don't even -mind- Calgar. My only issue with him is getting a new model again while others starve.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with his 8e model. It's not old. It didn't feel old to build. Its mould has not aged badly, the sprue tech is up to date. His proportions and scale are up to date.

It's just such a feeling of waste. Drukhari don't get to have a faction leader at all but Calgar gets this? I don't even play Drukhari but this is just sad.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't even -mind- Calgar. My only issue with him is getting a new model again while others starve.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with his 8e model. It's not old. It didn't feel old to build. Its mould has not aged badly, the sprue tech is up to date. His proportions and scale are up to date.

It's just such a feeling of waste. Drukhari don't get to have a faction leader at all but Calgar gets this? I don't even play Drukhari but this is just sad.

The problem with his 8th model is that he is in Gravis armor which in 8th was suppose to be the new hotness to replace the terminator armor but now in 10th when they realized that Gravis can't replace terminators (this is from a guy who really like Gravis models to) with them now getting upscaled models they needed him back in the right armor to sell more models.

 JNAProductions wrote:
He's leader of the Ultramarines, who are the poster boys for Marines.
He's also a very powerful model that you might see way too often.
And for me personally? The fact that he gets a CP automatically when Abaddon only has a 60% chance to irks me.

He gets - in theory - at least two chances at that 60% in each player turn, right? 4 chances per Battle Round where you can only add the one CP ever right?? And he's got a Strike + Sweep melee, right? He gets a Pick One Primarch/Sumpreme Strategiest Style ability that includes rare AURA abilities right? And Calgar only gets the point if he's the Warlord and on the battlefield right? I'd be mopre annoyed Abbadon is still MV 5" instead of 6" Abby is a cross between Primarch and Calgar. Calgar can lead MV6 squads and can MV6. Abby can lead MV6 Chosen but can't MV6. Beyond that, there's very little to whine about Abbadon about.

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
He's leader of the Ultramarines, who are the poster boys for Marines.
He's also a very powerful model that you might see way too often.
And for me personally? The fact that he gets a CP automatically when Abaddon only has a 60% chance to irks me.

He gets - in theory - at least two chances at that 60% in each player turn, right? 4 chances per Battle Round where you can only add the one CP ever right?? And he's got a Strike + Sweep melee, right? He gets a Pick One Primarch/Sumpreme Strategiest Style ability that includes rare AURA abilities right? And Calgar only gets the point if he's the Warlord and on the battlefield right? I'd be mopre annoyed Abbadon is still MV 5" instead of 6" Abby is a cross between Primarch and Calgar. Calgar can lead MV6 squads and can MV6. Abby can lead MV6 Chosen but can't MV6. Beyond that, there's very little to whine about Abbadon about.

The only time there'd be a reason to NOT have Calgar as your Warlord is if you took Guilliman. So that's not a significant cost.

Abaddon also gets an option to get that 60% chance of CP each time he Fights or Shoots. So that's three times per round (two combats, one shooting) unless you spend a CP on Overwatch, which kinda negates the point of gaining a CP.
So, if Abaddon is in melee for the whole round, on any given round you've got almost a 95% chance of getting 1 CP. Which is still less than Calgar.

Overall, Abaddon has stronger rules. Which he dang well should-he's almost twice as many points as Calgar is.

 KingGarland wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't even -mind- Calgar. My only issue with him is getting a new model again while others starve.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with his 8e model. It's not old. It didn't feel old to build. Its mould has not aged badly, the sprue tech is up to date. His proportions and scale are up to date.

It's just such a feeling of waste. Drukhari don't get to have a faction leader at all but Calgar gets this? I don't even play Drukhari but this is just sad.

The problem with his 8th model is that he is in Gravis armor which in 8th was suppose to be the new hotness to replace the terminator armor but now in 10th when they realized that Gravis can't replace terminators (this is from a guy who really like Gravis models to) with them now getting upscaled models they needed him back in the right armor to sell more models.

Right, it's to sell more models of course, but it's still wasteful from a player perspective.

Gravis may or may not have been intended to replace Terminators but clearly never managed to do so, whether in-lore or in-game. Gravis is just regular power armour with extra plates bolted on. It's the Primaris counterpart to mark 3 armour. That is fine. It's clearly a sidegrade and something even the rank and file can access (Heavy Intercessors) rather than the mark of an elite.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
He's leader of the Ultramarines, who are the poster boys for Marines.
He's also a very powerful model that you might see way too often.
And for me personally? The fact that he gets a CP automatically when Abaddon only has a 60% chance to irks me.

He gets - in theory - at least two chances at that 60% in each player turn, right? 4 chances per Battle Round where you can only add the one CP ever right?? And he's got a Strike + Sweep melee, right? He gets a Pick One Primarch/Sumpreme Strategiest Style ability that includes rare AURA abilities right? And Calgar only gets the point if he's the Warlord and on the battlefield right? I'd be mopre annoyed Abbadon is still MV 5" instead of 6" Abby is a cross between Primarch and Calgar. Calgar can lead MV6 squads and can MV6. Abby can lead MV6 Chosen but can't MV6. Beyond that, there's very little to whine about Abbadon about.

The only time there'd be a reason to NOT have Calgar as your Warlord is if you took Guilliman. So that's not a significant cost.

Its significant to people who want to take both. Azrael doesn't have the requirement. At some point you are going to stop telling people they're playing their armies wrong and/or their armies shouldn't be in the game, right?

Edit to Add:

Abaddon also gets an option to get that 60% chance of CP each time he Fights or Shoots. So that's three times per round (two combats, one shooting) unless you spend a CP on Overwatch, which kinda negates the point of gaining a CP.
So, if Abaddon is in melee for the whole round, on any given round you've got almost a 95% chance of getting 1 CP. Which is still less than Calgar.

Overall, Abaddon has stronger rules. Which he dang well should-he's almost twice as many points as Calgar is.

A free CP is a free CP. Getting it by Overwatching just means a "free" Overwatch you were likely already doing anyway - because you wouldn't know it was free until after you spent the first point.

Breton wrote:
At some point you are going to stop telling people they're playing their armies wrong and/or their armies shouldn't be in the game, right?

Please tell me where I said that. I am genuinely curious.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:
At some point you are going to stop telling people they're playing their armies wrong and/or their armies shouldn't be in the game, right?

Please tell me where I said that. I am genuinely curious.

a]

Do you want the time where you said something you didn't care about wasn't a significant cost?

Or the time you made an entire thread about it?

 JNAProductions wrote:
I was making a proposed rules thread, about designing missions for factions that emphasize their skills and are more accurate to what they'd be doing in the lore... But I realized, the only one I had a solid idea for was Marines.

Obviously some factions are great for pitched battles (Guard, Nids, Orks) but of the factions that probably SHOULDN'T be fighting like happens on the tabletop, what should they be doing instead?

Breton wrote:
Or the time you made an entire thread about it?

 JNAProductions wrote:
I was making a proposed rules thread, about designing missions for factions that emphasize their skills and are more accurate to what they'd be doing in the lore... But I realized, the only one I had a solid idea for was Marines.

Obviously some factions are great for pitched battles (Guard, Nids, Orks) but of the factions that probably SHOULDN'T be fighting like happens on the tabletop, what should they be doing instead?

Ah yes. The thread I made to see what kind of missions could be made to better suit the narrative of forces, like Eldar or Marines. What a terrible thing to do.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:
Or the time you made an entire thread about it?

 JNAProductions wrote:
I was making a proposed rules thread, about designing missions for factions that emphasize their skills and are more accurate to what they'd be doing in the lore... But I realized, the only one I had a solid idea for was Marines.

Obviously some factions are great for pitched battles (Guard, Nids, Orks) but of the factions that probably SHOULDN'T be fighting like happens on the tabletop, what should they be doing instead?

Ah yes. The thread I made to see what kind of missions could be made to better suit the narrative of forces, like Eldar or Marines. What a terrible thing to do.

You asked, I answered, you sarcastically avoided.

SHOULDN'T be fighting like

Breton wrote:
Its significant to people who want to take both. Azrael doesn't have the requirement.

Azrael doesn't have that requirement because people weren't spamming taking him and the Lion at the same time, unlike the perpetual bromance between Guilliman and Calgar. That was a rule change designed to break up abuse.

 BorderCountess wrote:

Breton wrote:
Its significant to people who want to take both. Azrael doesn't have the requirement.

Azrael doesn't have that requirement because people weren't spamming taking him and the Lion at the same time, unlike the perpetual bromance between Guilliman and Calgar. That was a rule change designed to break up abuse.

Which is neither here nor there on "Calgar getting it all the time" even though he doesn't, Azrael does, and Abbadon almost all the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
Calgar is the epitome of what's wrong with Space Marines.

Helbrecht is a fanatical maniac, Dante literally hates being alive but keeps not dying, Cato Sicarius is a monumental d-bag who gets put in his place and actually grows as a character.

Calgar just does everything and is always on top. He didn't even stay dead when he got wrecked by Abbadon himself.

Calgar was willing to sacrifice himself to delay Abbadon long enough for the rest of the Imperium to steal his flagship. And then he crossed the Rubicon to sell more Primaris Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charax wrote:
there are a few interesting things about Calgar for me, but they've all been downplayed/ignored:
1) Calgar isn't Calgar, he took the name of another aspirant. Mentioned once in the comic, never brought up again.

2) The Gauntlets being reforged Chaos weapons. Boring McBoringface of the Boring Marines walking around with Chaos Weapon relics would be an interesting juxtaposition, but the Gauntlets' origins are never of any consequence whatsoever. Same with all the reclaimed Chaos Weapon relics.

3) Calgar's feelings of failure and inadequacy since Guilliman's return as stated in Dark Imperium. Again, a moment of interesting depth that is never remarked upon again.

There's potential in Calgar, there are opportunities to make him interesting, but for a character given so much attention both in terms of lore and models, none of these opportunities are expanded upon, and at this point I'd rather just stop hearing about him in favor of other characters who have had less of the spotlight and are more nuanced and interesting

#2 might be a Retcon. What I remember way way way back when was that they were "originally used" by Guilliman who took them off an Ork warboss. Of course this was before Primarchs were 20 feet tall and people didn't wonder how The Lion and Azrael could wear the same helmet.

#3 is part of the reason I want a big ole Black Library book. The return of the Primarchs on both sides upsets a lot of status quo apple carts, and I'd like to see them return the equilibrium - and HOW they return the equilibrium.

The Gauntlets being reclaimed from a Chaos Champion was mentioned in the 2nd edition Codex: Ultramarines from 1995, so if it's a retcon it's been in place for thirty years

Breton wrote:

Calgar was willing to sacrifice himself to delay Abbadon long enough for the rest of the Imperium to steal his flagship. And then he crossed the Rubicon to sell more Primaris Marines.

Calgar was Primaris before that and when he got his arse kicked, he then got made into an Imperial saint.
Oh also he didn't die. He faced Abaddon himself, had his hearts destroyed and somehow survived. And the Vengeful Spirit wasn't stolen just damaged.
The end of the Vigilus campaing was naff just to make sure that Chaos wouldn't win despite so obviously having an advantage. Permanent stalemate only for 40k.

 Pariah Press wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Wherever I go, no matter who I talk to, I find a strong dislike of Marneus Calgar. Why is this?

Because you never talk to me! I f***ing love Calgar. That guy has two power fists! TWO! I bought the really old Calgar sitting on a throne mini at my LGS and committed to Ultramarines for life at that moment.

Haha, this! The Powerfist was the iconic Space Marine leader weapon when I started. Both Rogue Trader and 2nd ed featured Space Marine Captains with Powerfists front and center, (as did the 3rd ed Codex later). And the RTB01 plastics plus the basic metal Tactical Squad of 2nd featured a Sergeant with a Powerfist. Calgar was the ultimate Space Marine Captain because he had two of them, and he was the leader of the Ultra-Marines,so you knew he was the best of the best.

But also I liked him because he was drama free compared to the other main chapters of the day. Just a guy who was good at his job.

However, the guy that actually brought me into Ultras for my first army was the proto-Sicarius, OG UM Captain model. That roman crest amd the straight arm pointing sword looked like a guy who led with purpose and efficiency.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Pariah Press wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Wherever I go, no matter who I talk to, I find a strong dislike of Marneus Calgar. Why is this?

Because you never talk to me! I f***ing love Calgar. That guy has two power fists! TWO! I bought the really old Calgar sitting on a throne mini at my LGS and committed to Ultramarines for life at that moment.

Haha, this! The Powerfist was the iconic Space Marine leader weapon when I started. Both Rogue Trader and 2nd ed featured Space Marine Captains with Powerfists front and center, (as did the 3rd ed Codex later). And the RTB01 plastics plus the basic metal Tactical Squad of 2nd featured a Sergeant with a Powerfist. Calgar was the ultimate Space Marine Captain because he had two of them, and he was the leader of the Ultra-Marines,so you knew he was the best of the best.

But also I liked him because he was drama free compared to the other main chapters of the day. Just a guy who was good at his job.

However, the guy that actually brought me into Ultras for my first army was the proto-Sicarius, OG UM Captain model. That roman crest amd the straight arm pointing sword looked like a guy who led with purpose and efficiency.

You know, despite not liking Calgar myself, I do appreciate the earnest enthusiasm for him in this post.

Genuinely glad you get a kick out of him, and I hope you have a blast fielding him.

I actually really like the ultramarines, but find space marines often get a bogged down in weird stuff and over obsession with their own quirks to a really tiring degree.

Them being kind of just not the weirdest is really why I like them now, and Calgar I think actually is cool for similar reasons.
Could actually give me more ultramarines stuff as a whole.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Pariah Press wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Wherever I go, no matter who I talk to, I find a strong dislike of Marneus Calgar. Why is this?

Because you never talk to me! I f***ing love Calgar. That guy has two power fists! TWO! I bought the really old Calgar sitting on a throne mini at my LGS and committed to Ultramarines for life at that moment.

Haha, this! The Powerfist was the iconic Space Marine leader weapon when I started. Both Rogue Trader and 2nd ed featured Space Marine Captains with Powerfists front and center, (as did the 3rd ed Codex later). And the RTB01 plastics plus the basic metal Tactical Squad of 2nd featured a Sergeant with a Powerfist. Calgar was the ultimate Space Marine Captain because he had two of them, and he was the leader of the Ultra-Marines,so you knew he was the best of the best.

But also I liked him because he was drama free compared to the other main chapters of the day. Just a guy who was good at his job.

However, the guy that actually brought me into Ultras for my first army was the proto-Sicarius, OG UM Captain model. That roman crest amd the straight arm pointing sword looked like a guy who led with purpose and efficiency.

You know, despite not liking Calgar myself, I do appreciate the earnest enthusiasm for him in this post.

Genuinely glad you get a kick out of him, and I hope you have a blast fielding him.

I'll second this. I never miss an opportunity to grump or to take jabs at smurfs, but I sincerely don't want to yuck anyone's yum. If you're genuinely enjoying using unit X, then that's awesome and I'm glad to hear it.

Now I do not understand the whole "dislike because of lore" thing. The lore is what it is anyway one dude is not going to make it better or worse. Mechanicaly, I 100% understand the hate. Calgar gets 3 models in a short span of time and a WS player can't even get a bike for their main dude, which is still better then the Crimson Fist guy who can't even get a model for his main dude. And the just convert argument doesn't work in a world of "no model, no rules". Am not even playing regular marines, and we still get backlash nerfs, because of marines (had our purgators destroyed as a unit for a whole edition, because of Ultramarines) . For regular marines it is even worde. Here is one subfaction with crazy model/rule support, OP too and each time GW decides to nerf your regular dudes, dreadnoughts etc you can get angry. You get more angry when GW starts to balance the whole faction around "well you have Calgar/Gulliman". Not so fun if you play Salamanders or even worse a homebrew chapter. Rules based hate I perfectly get.

Heck my psychic phase and psychic stuff is gone, because Tau have no psykers.

Karol wrote:
Now I do not understand the whole "dislike because of lore" thing. The lore is what it is anyway one dude is not going to make it better or worse.

You've never read a book or watched a show and disliked how a certain character was handled despite liking the rest of the story?

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Karol wrote:
Now I do not understand the whole "dislike because of lore" thing. The lore is what it is anyway one dude is not going to make it better or worse.

You've never read a book or watched a show and disliked how a certain character was handled despite liking the rest of the story?

...or felt that the rest of the story suffered because of how that one character was handled?

Basically, Calgar comes off as a glorified Gary Stu to me.

You mean like the time Ragnar Blackmane and Ghaz killed each other then both came back to life? Or the time Guilliman and Johnson came back to life. . .

I never paid much attention to the lore about named characters in general, and definitely since around 3rd or 4th edition or so. I heard there was a comic book for Calgar. I know little about it and I'm probably happier for it.

Back in my day we had Characters like Captain Invictus and Captain Tycho, both of whom had already died.

Sadly, the best characters never get models or rules.

Tankred, the Black Templars Dreadnought from the Damnation Crusade comics, Amberly Vail, Jurgen and Commissar Cain...
and the guy with the best space marine name ever: Malum Caedo. (Lit. I KILL EVIL)....

In retrospect, Malum Caedo would be tough to create rules for. He did kill 8 Greater Daemons and thousands of lesser demons, cultists, and Chaos Marines... by himself.

The conscious Calgar hate can be traced back to 5th edition. The ultramarines had shifted to being the poster marines (Blood Angels in 2nd, BTs in 3rd, Ultras in 4th and 5th eds).

Ward's 5th ed marine codex over amped Calgar's rules and background, we get his defeat of an avatar which set the precedent (as I stated it would all the way back then) of the avatar and other equally large creatures being defeated by everyone as their hero moment.

The book also said every marine desired to be an ultramarine because they were so gosh darn the bestest.

From there the Ultramarines remained the central marine chapter and Calgar effectively the poster boy of the poster boys.

Since then we've had an expansion of special blue boy characters, but they are by definition inferior to their lord as none of them are chapter master.

The continual stat inflation of the character and his weapons doesn't help.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Karol wrote:
Now I do not understand the whole "dislike because of lore" thing. The lore is what it is anyway one dude is not going to make it better or worse.

You've never read a book or watched a show and disliked how a certain character was handled despite liking the rest of the story?

I did. but w40k is a game, not a book or a movie.The more 8th ed and later lore I read, and then the more prior 8th ed stuff I read the more it felt like post 8th w40k is a very different game, but also a very different lore setting. Is it stupid, yeah most of the time for a lot of factions. But I am only interested in it, if it affects the game mechanics. Removing the psychic phase or making GK such "masters" of their weapons that they suddenly forget how to use hammers, or similar stuff for other factions. I understand getting angry at that. And the lore is anything GW wants it to be, and they change it for their own likes/dislikes modified only by potential $ lose/gain. They noticed how people disliked the way Yarrik was "offscreen" killed, had his replacment ready and sculpted, but in the end decided to bring him back. Is it stupid? probably like Ghaz suffering a critical head injury for the second or third time in his life and somehow surviving. In the end meh. As long as IG or Orks are fun to play, no one cares. On the flip side the best writen cool lore doesn't help a faction that is unfun to buy/play.

Calgar's always struck me as quite "boring" - but equally Calgar hate, Ultramarine hate, even Marine hate just strikes me as bit dated.

Maybe this is about how I am and where I am - but in the 2010s, 5th edition, sure. Much mockery, much hatred.

These days? It all seems a bit performative and clickbait. I just can't hold a grudge over toy soldiers that long. If someone's actually painted up an Ultramarines army more respect to them. For all the mockery of being the poster boys, its actually quite fun to see them on the table.

Tyel wrote:
Calgar's always struck me as quite "boring" - but equally Calgar hate, Ultramarine hate, even Marine hate just strikes me as bit dated.

Maybe this is about how I am and where I am - but in the 2010s, 5th edition, sure. Much mockery, much hatred.

These days? It all seems a bit performative and clickbait. I just can't hold a grudge over toy soldiers that long. If someone's actually painted up an Ultramarines army more respect to them. For all the mockery of being the poster boys, its actually quite fun to see them on the table.

There's a subtle distinction between the hate for Calgar and the hate for Ultramarines.

The hate for Ultramarines has more to do with how many freaking characters and releases that one chapter gets, while whole factions seem to languish in obscurity. And how many named Captain models does one faction really need? Heck, they had to basically invent a new position for Cato Sicarius to justify his new model!

Calgar, on the other hand, just comes off as a Gary Stu.

Idk. I'd put my general dislike for smurfs in the same bucket as Calgar.

It's not that I actually "hate" the faction. I just find them really, really bland. Like someone started painting their army based on the starting box art without realizing there were other, cooler chapters they could paint their marines as instead.

So whenever they get any kind of release, I just kind of sigh and think about how cool it might have been to get a Black Dragons model or something xenos.

When I found out they were doing more 40k comics, I got excited. Then when I found out one of them was all about Calgar, I just went. "Oh. That's a shame. What a waste."

Guilliman kind of gets put in the bucket too. I'm not a big fan of the primarchs being in 40k, but if they *had* to do a loyalist primarch, they started with the second most boring one. (The most boring, of course, being Dorn.) They introduced a few genuinely kind of neat plot hooks with him though, so I'll let him stay out of the bucket for now, even though they haven't followed through on those plot hooks as much as I'd like.

UM are just kind of dull. They have hall monitor energy. Their gimmick is following pre-approved tactics to a fault rather than doing something interesting/surprising/creative. They kinda sorta want to be one of the "good guy" chapters, but
A.) No chapter are actually good guys.
B.) Lamenters and Salamanders kind of do it better.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
UM are just kind of dull. They have hall monitor energy. Their gimmick is following pre-approved tactics to a fault rather than doing something interesting/surprising/creative. They kinda sorta want to be one of the "good guy" chapters, but
A.) No chapter are actually good guys.
B.) Lamenters and Salamanders kind of do it better.

I used to think this, but I've sort of come out the other end.
Ultramarines are so dull they become cool - because the other flavours of Marine are "duller".
"I'm the strongest"
"I'm the toughest"
"I'm the fastest"
"I'm the sneakiest"
"Wolf wolf wolf wolf"
"Look, I'm the best organised. That's why we have an Empire, and you lot struggle with running a bath."

It is admittedly a niche reading of the source material perhaps. Rather than focusing on the tedious times Calgar bro-fists Necron super weapons into the heart of stars etc etc.
But this better superior organisation and Empire building kind of makes Ultramarines a lot more interesting as a result. Whether that feeds through to the tabletop can be debated. But as a thing in the lore.

As I've gotten older I've really started to find the UM as the coolest. They're the no nonsense just competent military command get gak done.

Whereas a lot of other chapters just kinda read as silly "hurr durr I'm the most angry, I charge suicidally straight into enemy guns and that makes me a better warrior". Like, bruh.

The UM spawned a lot of (honestly justified) hate in 5th when it was very explicit "these guys are the best, everyone wishes they were these guys". And we all know the 40k community hasn't really updated their memes since that era.

And it is still frankly comical the sheer volume of characters the UM gets. And just recently getting a whole *second* Calgar model just seems laughable when so many factions are crying out for any kind of character.

I also find Calgar's lore a little too Gary Stu. I remember back in Vigilus where the author really wanted us to know that the only reason Calgar was losing his duel with Abaddon was because that was the plan and he was *letting* Abaddon win. Also in the recent SM2 video game one of the central points of Captain Titus is that he's unnaturally resistant to the warp and that creates a tonne of suspicion upon him. In the final climax Titus is barely able to just about resist the warp forces uses against him. Calgar meanwhile? Calgar just strolls through casually gunning everything down through sheer awesomeness. It's just... uh.

I absolutely adore his original Terminator model though. The new ones just don't compare.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
As I've gotten older I've really started to find the UM as the coolest. They're the no nonsense just competent military command get gak done.

I think competent leadership has become a fantasy we can all get behind these days.

It's not just Calgar, I detest ALL Ultramarines. Nothing pissed me off more as a Crimson Fists player than having someone see my army and say "Oh, you play Ultramarines." It's been happening since 2nd Edition when the Ultramarines suddenly became the posterchild for vanilla Marines.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I also find Calgar's lore a little too Gary Stu. I remember back in Vigilus where the author really wanted us to know that the only reason Calgar was losing his duel with Abaddon was because that was the plan and he was *letting* Abaddon win. Also in the recent SM2 video game one of the central points of Captain Titus is that he's unnaturally resistant to the warp and that creates a tonne of suspicion upon him. In the final climax Titus is barely able to just about resist the warp forces uses against him. Calgar meanwhile? Calgar just strolls through casually gunning everything down through sheer awesomeness. It's just... uh.

...and then it turns out that the whole plot of the game was for a Sorcerer to trap Calgar! Titus was 'just there'.

Tyel wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
UM are just kind of dull. They have hall monitor energy. Their gimmick is following pre-approved tactics to a fault rather than doing something interesting/surprising/creative. They kinda sorta want to be one of the "good guy" chapters, but
A.) No chapter are actually good guys.
B.) Lamenters and Salamanders kind of do it better.

I used to think this, but I've sort of come out the other end.
Ultramarines are so dull they become cool - because the other flavours of Marine are "duller".
"I'm the strongest"
"I'm the toughest"
"I'm the fastest"
"I'm the sneakiest"
"Wolf wolf wolf wolf"
"Look, I'm the best organised. That's why we have an Empire, and you lot struggle with running a bath."

It is admittedly a niche reading of the source material perhaps. Rather than focusing on the tedious times Calgar bro-fists Necron super weapons into the heart of stars etc etc.
But this better superior organisation and Empire building kind of makes Ultramarines a lot more interesting as a result. Whether that feeds through to the tabletop can be debated. But as a thing in the lore.

Hm. See, I could get behind that if that was the direction they leaned into more. But the UM stories I've read usually have their organizational stuff as either a bit of set dressing, a really roundabout way of saying, "And then they did the standard stuff, but extra well," or an outright detriment as they actively punish people for creative problem solving.

I could absolutely get into a story about a chapter who uses decidedly un-grimdark forms of level-headedness and practical logistics to defeat the enemy.

But in practice, my exposure to UM has been stuff like:
* "Marine punches avatar to death."
* "Smurf sent on a penitent crusade because he tried a non-codex tactic that actually seemed pretty reasonable in-context."
* "Smurf shoots necrons while telling himself he's a good guy. He is not a good guy."

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
UM are just kind of dull. They have hall monitor energy. Their gimmick is following pre-approved tactics to a fault rather than doing something interesting/surprising/creative. They kinda sorta want to be one of the "good guy" chapters, but
A.) No chapter are actually good guys.
B.) Lamenters and Salamanders kind of do it better.

I used to think this, but I've sort of come out the other end.
Ultramarines are so dull they become cool - because the other flavours of Marine are "duller".
"I'm the strongest"
"I'm the toughest"
"I'm the fastest"
"I'm the sneakiest"
"Wolf wolf wolf wolf"
"Look, I'm the best organised. That's why we have an Empire, and you lot struggle with running a bath."

It is admittedly a niche reading of the source material perhaps. Rather than focusing on the tedious times Calgar bro-fists Necron super weapons into the heart of stars etc etc.
But this better superior organisation and Empire building kind of makes Ultramarines a lot more interesting as a result. Whether that feeds through to the tabletop can be debated. But as a thing in the lore.

Hm. See, I could get behind that if that was the direction they leaned into more. But the UM stories I've read usually have their organizational stuff as either a bit of set dressing, a really roundabout way of saying, "And then they did the standard stuff, but extra well," or an outright detriment as they actively punish people for creative problem solving.

I could absolutely get into a story about a chapter who uses decidedly un-grimdark forms of level-headedness and practical logistics to defeat the enemy.

But in practice, my exposure to UM has been stuff like:
* "Marine punches avatar to death."
* "Smurf sent on a penitent crusade because he tried a non-codex tactic that actually seemed pretty reasonable in-context."
* "Smurf shoots necrons while telling himself he's a good guy. He is not a good guy."

Honestly this is more or less the reason why people will say they like the old lore more, and that GWs lore now has some serious comic-book-heroification problems.

In the 2nd ed Codex, when I had my first army (Ultramarines), Calgar's big claim to fame was . . . nothing really explicit. He commanded the defense of Ultramar against Hive Fleet Behemoth. He commanded like a commander should. I think there's a story where he holds the line against some Orks in front of a fortress gate for a day or something, but I can't find it atm.

Also in the 2nd ed book it highlights that the Ultramarines are efficient logisticians, portraying a habit with conquered worlds of ensuring defenses were in place, establishing trade routes and leaving advisors to make sure things go smoothly. It mentions that the region of Ultramar is so "prosperous and efficient" it always has several hundred regiments of PDF/Guard ready to go. Even to my 15 year old brain that all sounded like they were being . . . sensible.

Karol wrote:
Now I do not understand the whole "dislike because of lore" thing. The lore is what it is anyway one dude is not going to make it better or worse. Mechanicaly, I 100% understand the hate. Calgar gets 3 models in a short span of time and a WS player can't even get a bike for their main dude, which is still better then the Crimson Fist guy who can't even get a model for his main dude. And the just convert argument doesn't work in a world of "no model, no rules". Am not even playing regular marines, and we still get backlash nerfs, because of marines (had our purgators destroyed as a unit for a whole edition, because of Ultramarines) . For regular marines it is even worde. Here is one subfaction with crazy model/rule support, OP too and each time GW decides to nerf your regular dudes, dreadnoughts etc you can get angry. You get more angry when GW starts to balance the whole faction around "well you have Calgar/Gulliman". Not so fun if you play Salamanders or even worse a homebrew chapter. Rules based hate I perfectly get.

Heck my psychic phase and psychic stuff is gone, because Tau have no psykers.

I'm less bothered by Calgar getting the models - especially with the change to the game plan vis-a-vis Terminators/Gravis than I am Njall not getting the models. They've both been Power or Terminator armor swaps. But that went away for Njall. I think its going away for Calgar too. Which is kind of sad. I like that they had swaps. I wish they all had Swaps. Lysander could flip back and forth between Terminator and Stern?-guard. Shrike between Terminator and Vanguard, and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
[Orks in front of a fortress gate for a day or something, but I can't find it atm.

I think you're thinking of Tycho from the Blood Angels? Something about him holding some breach, getting buried under the rubble just as the black rage hit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
You mean like the time Ragnar Blackmane and Ghaz killed each other then both came back to life? Or the time Guilliman and Johnson came back to life. . .

I never paid much attention to the lore about named characters in general, and definitely since around 3rd or 4th edition or so. I heard there was a comic book for Calgar. I know little about it and I'm probably happier for it.

Back in my day we had Characters like Captain Invictus and Captain Tycho, both of whom had already died.

The graphic novel isn't that bad. Aside from what boils down to a couple trivia questions its not really about Calgar though - If I were writing a synopsis I'd say its more about pre-neophyte recruiting, with a sins-of-the-past/revenge subplot, but it could have been any Space Marine leader in the story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

I could absolutely get into a story about a chapter who uses decidedly un-grimdark forms of level-headedness and practical logistics to defeat the enemy.

But in practice, my exposure to UM has been stuff like:
* "Marine punches avatar to death."
* "Smurf sent on a penitent crusade because he tried a non-codex tactic that actually seemed pretty reasonable in-context."
* "Smurf shoots necrons while telling himself he's a good guy. He is not a good guy."

You see it more in the Horus Heresy era novels.
"Theoretical and Practical" plus the switch from Red Helmets being a mark of punishment to being a mark of honor for Sergeants when a Sergeant "borrows" some power weapons right before a Marine vs Marine fight and saves the day.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
UM are just kind of dull. They have hall monitor energy. Their gimmick is following pre-approved tactics to a fault rather than doing something interesting/surprising/creative. They kinda sorta want to be one of the "good guy" chapters, but
A.) No chapter are actually good guys.
B.) Lamenters and Salamanders kind of do it better.

I used to think this, but I've sort of come out the other end.
Ultramarines are so dull they become cool - because the other flavours of Marine are "duller".
"I'm the strongest"
"I'm the toughest"
"I'm the fastest"
"I'm the sneakiest"
"Wolf wolf wolf wolf"
"Look, I'm the best organised. That's why we have an Empire, and you lot struggle with running a bath."

It is admittedly a niche reading of the source material perhaps. Rather than focusing on the tedious times Calgar bro-fists Necron super weapons into the heart of stars etc etc.
But this better superior organisation and Empire building kind of makes Ultramarines a lot more interesting as a result. Whether that feeds through to the tabletop can be debated. But as a thing in the lore.

Hm. See, I could get behind that if that was the direction they leaned into more. But the UM stories I've read usually have their organizational stuff as either a bit of set dressing, a really roundabout way of saying, "And then they did the standard stuff, but extra well," or an outright detriment as they actively punish people for creative problem solving.

I could absolutely get into a story about a chapter who uses decidedly un-grimdark forms of level-headedness and practical logistics to defeat the enemy.

But in practice, my exposure to UM has been stuff like:
* "Marine punches avatar to death."
* "Smurf sent on a penitent crusade because he tried a non-codex tactic that actually seemed pretty reasonable in-context."
* "Smurf shoots necrons while telling himself he's a good guy. He is not a good guy."

Honestly this is more or less the reason why people will say they like the old lore more, and that GWs lore now has some serious comic-book-heroification problems.

In the 2nd ed Codex, when I had my first army (Ultramarines), Calgar's big claim to fame was . . . nothing really explicit. He commanded the defense of Ultramar against Hive Fleet Behemoth. He commanded like a commander should. I think there's a story where he holds the line against some Orks in front of a fortress gate for a day or something, but I can't find it atm.

Also in the 2nd ed book it highlights that the Ultramarines are efficient logisticians, portraying a habit with conquered worlds of ensuring defenses were in place, establishing trade routes and leaving advisors to make sure things go smoothly. It mentions that the region of Ultramar is so "prosperous and efficient" it always has several hundred regiments of PDF/Guard ready to go. Even to my 15 year old brain that all sounded like they were being . . . sensible.

This actually made me think, getting into 40K there was a lot more colour and punk to the setting. And I wonder if pushing for Grimdark actually end up sanitised it away. Some of the setting still has it, but it feels like marines even if theoretically are horrifying for people to make are so far pushed to a power fantasy that it’s lost its bite.
The ultramarines being just good at what they do, where they are stuck within the system and despite there power still cannot break free is good stuff for the s setting.
This also I think effects the other chapters more, space wolves getting more wolf in space it felt for a while. But also the heresy being less myth and legends become just this is the history when 40K should evoke the dark ages.

So many thoughts and it makes me want to dig out 2nd edition books and see what I find. But all mine are stored away.

I am going to quote a good reddit post because I think this plays into why Calgar is disliked (though the problem is far from contained to him: )

Related to Importance Creep: Exclusivity/Prestige Creep.

The peak example is that the ultimate protagonist/hero of the Vraks campaign, a man who spoke to the Emperor and who led Grey Knights into battle on the nightmare skein of a burgeoning daemon world, was just some guy. He was a strong psyker, sure, but his name never gets a mention in the franchise's top fifty.

And the architect? The man whose whims drowned millions of screaming mouths in sucking mud, plague, caustic gas, and lasgun fire? Also just some guy. Who became a daemon prince of Nurgle, by the way.

Neither of those characters could be made in modern 40k because the franchise places no true narrative value on anyone who isn't a Space Marine or a Primarch. And while I enjoy both Space Marines and Primarchs, the setting is poorer when you don't have random-ass supermen like Hector Rex running around.

Hell, both Vraks and Badab also showcase that Space Marines don't have to be first- or second-founding chapters to matter, but stuff like that is a vanishing rarity nowadays.

It's not just that it's Calgar. It's that it's disproportionately Calgar, which makes the setting feel smaller. As said, it's not contained to him. When the Tau do something, you bet it's either Farsight or Shadowsun doing it.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

In retrospect, Malum Caedo would be tough to create rules for. He did kill 8 Greater Daemons and thousands of lesser demons, cultists, and Chaos Marines... by himself.

I haven't read it, and the story is probably better than this quote makes it sound... But this is exactly why BL should not be considered "Lore" - read it if you like it, don't if you don't... But NEVER expect the game to play like this because a) it doesn't and b) it shouldn't.

Personally, I HATE this tripe, and I think it damages the game. I wish GW would use greater editorial control and tell authors "Look, we are writing this either for people who play the game and want to read stories inspired by the game, or for people who will want to play the game after reading this story. Since your first draft is completely inconsistent with the game game, we're going to have to ask for another draft, because we can't publish this."

At the same time, I don't want to tell people what they can and can't read.

Malum Caedo is a video game character, not a novel character.

That is why he has such an absurd kill count. It's standard in video games. Look at the team of three nobodies in Space Marine 2 PvE matches carving their way through entire companies of Thousand Sons, your four squads in Dawn of War II taking on armies by themselves, and so on.

Malum Caedo is in a game where they tried to make a 40k spin on Doom, and the results are as expected.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Malum Caedo is a video game character, not a novel character.

That is why he has such an absurd kill count. It's standard in video games. Look at the team of three nobodies in Space Marine 2 PvE matches carving their way through entire companies of Thousand Sons, your four squads in Dawn of War II taking on armies by themselves, and so on.

Malum Caedo is in a game where they tried to make a 40k spin on Doom, and the results are as expected.

Ahhh. Wew! Because that was sounding bad even for BL. I guess a video game is gonna be what a video game is; I'm not sure how they could tone down the achievement of a POV video game character and still have an interesting / fun videogame.

Still, the point somewhat remains: considering this "lore" is just really antithetical to the tabletop game.

You think that's bad? Shas'la Kais has rolled more consecutive 6's than any T3, SV4,W1, BS4 model in the history of the setting.

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
[Orks in front of a fortress gate for a day or something, but I can't find it atm.

I think you're thinking of Tycho from the Blood Angels? Something about him holding some breach, getting buried under the rubble just as the black rage hit.

Siege of Zalathras. Calgar holds the gate alone against the Ork hoard for a night and a day. Nothing OP about that at all. Gave his a rest from punching out Avatars probably.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
[Orks in front of a fortress gate for a day or something, but I can't find it atm.

I think you're thinking of Tycho from the Blood Angels? Something about him holding some breach, getting buried under the rubble just as the black rage hit.

Siege of Zalathras. Calgar holds the gate alone against the Ork hoard for a night and a day. Nothing OP about that at all. Gave his a rest from punching out Avatars probably.

Ahh thanks! Where is that from? I couldn't find it in either the 2nd or 3rd ed codex.

At least the special rules for the Gauntlets were that opponents never got outnumbering bonuses, so in theory there's a scenario where that could work out. (Actually landing the final blow on an Avatar could happen in game too, though. Just sayin.)

That one is explained in the Ultramarines Omnibus as pure propaganda. Calgar was in reality deployed along with the entire First Company but the local officials decided that Calgar alone was the better heroic tale, the First Company never said anything and Calgar understood the power of propaganda to inspire the people of the Imperium so he just left it.

The curse of the UM Omnibuses is that it makes the Ultramarines slightly less cringeworthy but then also does the opposite at the same time.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
As I've gotten older I've really started to find the UM as the coolest. They're the no nonsense just competent military command get gak done.

Nah, that the Imperial Fists.

Ultramarines are the entitled nepobabies with a bad colour scheme.

 Crimson wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
As I've gotten older I've really started to find the UM as the coolest. They're the no nonsense just competent military command get gak done.

Nah, that the Imperial Fists.

Ultramarines are the entitled nepobabies with a bad colour scheme.

I hold to this day that during the Heresy the "Eldar incursion" that the entire Ultramarines legion was quelling was 17 Exodites with slingshots.

 Crimson wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
As I've gotten older I've really started to find the UM as the coolest. They're the no nonsense just competent military command get gak done.

Nah, that the Imperial Fists.

Ultramarines are the entitled nepobabies with a bad colour scheme.

The YELLOW Marines gonna hate on color scheme? Seems like GREEN would be more appropriate. For envy! :p

For reals though, when I started in 2nd there wasn't much on the Fists. Of the big 4 that were expanded on, UM were the most straightforward and sensible.

Imperial Fists were of course featured in the great Ian Watson (RIP ) novel, but they had their own masochistic bend to them. Still very cool though.

As we learned from the wonderful Ultramarines movie, they only need to put like 10 guys on a battle Barge.

They must be amazing.

The Imperial Fists on the other hand...

 Insectum7 wrote:

The YELLOW Marines gonna hate on color scheme?

Yes! The IF have one of the best colour schemes, especially when they are weathered properly. The UM blue is very meh, and I don't understand why GW uses it as the default colour scheme, as it just makes everything look worse.

Seems like GREEN would be more appropriate. For envy! :p

But of course green is the reason why UM aren't the worst. DA green is kinda bad too, and the bright green of the Salamanders is the absolute worst.

For reals though, when I started in 2nd there wasn't much on the Fists. Of the big 4 that were expanded on, UM were the most straightforward and sensible.

Yeah, true. Then again, back then the Angel chapters and the Wolves were way less flanderised too. I think it was Ward's fanboy take on the Ultras that made them totally insufferable, and they have never recovered from it.

Agreed with the Ward-lore 100%.

It's true, bashed and worn out IF can look pretty great. IMO the strength of UM blue is that the highlights pop more against the darker color, and I dig the crisp white heraldry and squad badges against it. TBF though, I haven't actually painted an Ultramarine for . . . Almost 30 years ffffffffff...

And now, it turns out this whole shebang on Armageddon is somehow Calgar's idea.

WarCom wrote:The book features details about some of the main Space Marines Chapters on Armageddon – including the Blood Angels, Salamanders, Crimson Fists, Ultramarines, Black Templars, and White Scars – and the Ork clans they’re fighting – the Goffs, Evil Sunz, Deathskulls, Bad Moons, Snakebites, and Blood Axes. There’s more on the heroes involved, including Commissar Yarrick, Ghazghkull Thraka, and Marneus Calgar – Operation Imperator was the Chapter Master’s idea!

Cannot let the other chapters to have the spotlight!

God forbid Yarrick, who Chapter Masters canonically defer to when it comes to the Orks and Armageddon, could have come up with any of this.

I'm glad that there isn't some sort of giant rift splitting the galaxy in two, which would make it difficult for Chapters in Imperium Nihilus to send troops to a war on the other side.

Seems like a bad attempt to shoehorn mainline chapters into the fight so they can justify having everyone involved again on Armageddon. Poor Yarrick, de-iced just to have the spotlight stolen by John Space Marine. Wait for it, somehow Titus will get reassigned here to this warzone instead of the 500 worlds because raisins.

The days of Badab and Vraks are long past. If something happens now, you have to be one of the characters and organisations judged important enough to be allowed into 40k Smash Bros.

 BorderCountess wrote:
And now, it turns out this whole shebang on Armageddon is somehow Calgar's idea.

WarCom wrote:The book features details about some of the main Space Marines Chapters on Armageddon – including the Blood Angels, Salamanders, Crimson Fists, Ultramarines, Black Templars, and White Scars – and the Ork clans they’re fighting – the Goffs, Evil Sunz, Deathskulls, Bad Moons, Snakebites, and Blood Axes. There’s more on the heroes involved, including Commissar Yarrick, Ghazghkull Thraka, and Marneus Calgar – Operation Imperator was the Chapter Master’s idea!

Just the current shebang.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
Seems like a bad attempt to shoehorn mainline chapters into the fight so they can justify having everyone involved again on Armageddon. Poor Yarrick, de-iced just to have the spotlight stolen by John Space Marine. Wait for it, somehow Titus will get reassigned here to this warzone instead of the 500 worlds because raisins.

Those are mostly the chapters that have already been on Armageddon. The first one was just the wolves, but the second and third were Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Salamanders, and Black Templars.

I’d like it if Calgar’s plan doesn’t go so well, quite possibly due to something Yarrick predicted.
Let the protagonists (1) be fallible and (2) fight amongst themselves.

The guy with a bionic eye and single, larger Powerfist taken from an enemy, vs. the guy with a bionic eye and two Powerfists taken from an enemy!

 Insectum7 wrote:
The guy with a bionic eye and single, larger Powerfist taken from an enemy, vs. the guy with a bionic eye and two Powerfists taken from an enemy!

Huh, I guess Imperials loot stuff almost as much as Orks! Hey, that's our schtick! Don't make us loot your plot armour!

 JNAProductions wrote:
I’d like it if Calgar’s plan doesn’t go so well, quite possibly due to something Yarrick predicted.
Let the protagonists (1) be fallible and (2) fight amongst themselves.

Nobody's plan goes well in the campaign fluffs, its how they maintain the status quo.

1) That means they are fallible.

2a) They frequently fight among themselves. Remember Logan Grimnar vs the Inquisition?
2b) What makes you think the Imperium is the protagonist?

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I’d like it if Calgar’s plan doesn’t go so well, quite possibly due to something Yarrick predicted.
Let the protagonists (1) be fallible and (2) fight amongst themselves.

Nobody's plan goes well in the campaign fluffs, its how they maintain the status quo.

1) That means they are fallible.

2a) They frequently fight among themselves. Remember Logan Grimnar vs the Inquisition?
2b) What makes you think the Imperium is the protagonist?

Eh. It's rare to see screw-ups from Loyalists that have meaning.

And for 2a, that's from The Emperor's Gift, right?
For 2b... Look at the advertising for 40k. Look at which faction gets the most goodies, in terms of models, rules, videogames...

The Imperium ain't a good faction, but they're the default protagonist.

 JNAProductions wrote:
[Eh. It's rare to see screw-ups from Loyalists that have meaning.

I'll try this again with emphasis: its how they maintain the status quo.

And for 2a, that's from The Emperor's Gift, right?

And just about every Dawn of War campaign, etc.

For 2b... Look at the advertising for 40k. Look at which faction gets the most goodies, in terms of models, rules, videogames...

The Imperium ain't a good faction, but they're the default protagonist.

That doesn't make them the protagonist. Aliens have been in more movies than Sigourney Weaver. This does not make Aliens the protagonist.

Protagonist =/= hero.

The protagonist is just the person whom the story follows.

 BorderCountess wrote:
Protagonist =/= hero.

The protagonist is just the person whom the story follows.

I didn't say the Aliens weren't the heroes. They eat people. That's pretty far from heroic to... people. I said they weren't the protagonist. I used them as an example of "getting more" not automatically making someone the protagonist. I will add "getting more" doesn't automatically make you the hero either. Are you saying the Aliens are the protagonists in the franchise?

I believe that Warhammer 40k should absolutely not have a protagonist faction.

However, I believe it DOES have one, and it's absolutely the Imperium.

Almost all stories are told from an Imperial POV. Almost all setting information is given from an Imperial POV. The framing of stories and narratives is often decidedly on the Imperial side. The artwork most often shows Imperials as the central figures fighting whatever alien menace is around. If you play computer games, in almost all of the computer games you will play an Imperial faction. If you can play as other factions it may be outside of any kind of story mode etc.

How can you argue that they're not the protagonist then? It seems ludicrous to me.

You might argue that there is no protagonist (and I wish it were so!) but if there is a protagonist it is the Imperium and it's very hard to see who else it could be.

I'd argue that settings don't have protagonists, stories do.

Aye, and I much prefer 40K as setting but they've been moving more and more toward 40K as story for at least 20 odd years sadly.

To play devil's advocate, Marneus Calgar did have one thing going for him. One of the best Space Marine poses ever.

In the olden days of yore, he didn't need to get fully dressed or get out of his chair to kick your ass.

 Da Boss wrote:
I believe that Warhammer 40k should absolutely not have a protagonist faction.

However, I believe it DOES have one, and it's absolutely the Imperium.

Almost all stories are told from an Imperial POV. Almost all setting information is given from an Imperial POV. The framing of stories and narratives is often decidedly on the Imperial side. The artwork most often shows Imperials as the central figures fighting whatever alien menace is around. If you play computer games, in almost all of the computer games you will play an Imperial faction. If you can play as other factions it may be outside of any kind of story mode etc.

How can you argue that they're not the protagonist then? It seems ludicrous to me.

You might argue that there is no protagonist (and I wish it were so!) but if there is a protagonist it is the Imperium and it's very hard to see who else it could be.

I think anyone who argues they are not the protagonist is either exploring the argument for its own sake or simply doing it as a bit.

It's really not in question.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
To play devil's advocate, Marneus Calgar did have one thing going for him. One of the best Space Marine poses ever.

In the olden days of yore, he didn't need to get fully dressed or get out of his chair to kick your ass.

Just like the OG throned Genestealer Patriarch.