Interesting change. Not enough to make me change up my pledge, but I'll probably turn one of my blanks into a 90 degree turn. Far prefer the two straights to two t junctions.
In other news, I've already started planning a vertical flyer car park for another blank.
Bowing out for a couple of days due to a houseful of family. Best of luck to g&g for the finish, and Merry Christmas to all. Hope Santa brings you many toy soldiers.
I decided to pledge for two 6x4 boards. Makes more sense to have a wider range of sections to choose from and if I want I can do up a massive 6 x 8 or 12 x 4 game.
I would agree that lack of freebies may have affected it, feels odd none exist in the curse of this kickstarter, but I am not sure if it is right or wrong.
I went for 2 6x4 boards with 2 tray starters, that would make 3 very nice tables for the Infinity tournaments I will be planning in 2014.
RiTides wrote: Actually, Albino, they did not say backers could choose what repeat to get if all weren't unlocked. They may have said they'd consider it, but I got the impression it was likely to be random. Do you have a quote for their saying otherwise, as when this was discussed previously I thought it was pretty clear the repeat tile might be a random selection.
Actually, RiTides, they DID say backers could choose what repeat to get if all weren't unlocked. I'm not sure what made you so sure they didn't, when clearly you didn't know. They have mentioned it a few times in the comments page of the Kickstarter, since many people were understandably curious about that eventuality. Maybe they never mentioned it in an update where more people would see it because they never had any intention of honoring it, and they were lying all along.
Since you are so skeptical, I found one of their comments on the subject:
Creator Games & Gears on Dec 8
@Ironclad, We are set to unlock all 6 designs per theme, the advent of just 5, you get the choose the 6th from the 5. Although we are set to unlock them all, hopefully soon!!
Same here, Eisensapper and PsychoticStorm! Two boards = three 4x4s
Albino, you're right, I was referring to their reply here when I asked that, and the updates- not the KS comments. Looks like they couldn't honor that... However, you did mention that'd be the board you'd have chosen anyway... otherwise you'd be getting a 90deg turn if it unlocked (or if they simply choose to unlock it, as they very well could have!).
My hope is they'll also unlock the last Anima board, and have them all finalized. Not getting either of those, though- Anime and DzC here!
PsychoticStorm wrote: I would agree that lack of freebies may have affected it, feels odd none exist in the curse of this kickstarter, but I am not sure if it is right or wrong.
I went for 2 6x4 boards with 2 tray starters, that would make 3 very nice tables for the Infinity tournaments I will be planning in 2014.
I think the low low price of the boards effected what they could have in the way of freebies. They are the cheapest modular boards you can get and with free shipping it is a really good deal. I think they did suspect there would be more of a demand, given the number of early birds.
Agreed, but it's also how hard it is to add on anything- campaigns boost at the end from existing backers as much as new ones most of the time. But to add another board at the EB price folks would have to make a second account (or go up to 3 or 4 boards) and most won't do that.
So where is G&G battle board ks at from our point of view?
Well we are nearly fully tooled for all designs one more to unlock.
We are set to deliver on time. We don't want to do a quarter million ks or higher and then Delay these battle boards for 6 months by over promising. We want these on our webstore and retail as soon as we can and general release after we deliver to our backers.
Our main goal is getting these to market. Yes there haven't been much in freebies, but the value is great. Also there have been some really awesome kickstarters as well during our timeline which have done really well and good on them!! More choice the better! Makes us work harder. The Gamer base is finite. That said the crucial thing for us is delivering on our promises.
So we are very pleased. That said! Still no reason why we can't try and double our numbers!!
Send us a pm seems you know him, so you can ask him yourself. Probably dreaming about next game he is going play lol. We have a gaming party this weekend, in celebration. His idea/excuse to play miniature Wargames. Since he dreamed of this battle board system in his sleep, (allegedly) I would suspect he is jumping up and down in joy and very thankful to the gaming community. As am I and the rest of the crew.
So where is G&G battle board ks at from our point of view?
Well we are nearly fully tooled for all designs one more to unlock.
We are set to deliver on time. We don't want to do a quarter million ks or higher and then Delay these battle boards for 6 months by over promising. We want these on our webstore and retail as soon as we can and general release after we deliver to our backers.
Our main goal is getting these to market. Yes there haven't been much in freebies, but the value is great. Also there have been some really awesome kickstarters as well during our timeline which have done really well and good on them!! More choice the better! Makes us work harder. The Gamer base is finite. That said the crucial thing for us is delivering on our promises.
So.. any chance of the last Anima board tile being opened up as a special Christmas "Thank You" to the backers? Failing that - info on what the 6th Tile will be if the campaign fails to hit 117k in the next 14 hours?
Basically, I want to stay in on that board, but the campaign ends at 5am Christmas morning, so I strongly doubt I'll be watching the KS at that time to see what happens...
Good question Azazel- If you don't / can't be generous and just unlock that last board, will a specific one go to every backer (like the 28mm urban second straight road), or will it be random, or will people get to pick?
My other friend just pledged so between the three of us we're getting 4 boards (2 DzC, 2 Anime Wars) and the trays pack (6 trays). Will give us enough for 3 different 4x4 boards in each design, with 2 trays each for whichever game we're playing at the time (Dropzone Commander or Infinity). I think we're set!
So with £5500 to go in 4 hours it's extremely unlikely that the last Anima tile will be unlocked via pledges (you would have to sell out ALL of the remaining 84 Early Birds PLUS another £300 of add-ons. Would have sold a hell of a lot more if you guys hadn't been pig-headed about asking people to add additional boards for £95 a pop instead of the £62 EB price considering how fast the x2 and x3 options sold.
Will it be unlocked by G&G anyway, or do we lose out on a far better design than the one you decided to unlock first? (and far, far better than the crappy "water feature" tile.)
I'll be checking back in the next few so I know whether to drop that board and save myself $100 before I go to bed for Christmas Eve night.
Azazelx wrote:So with £5500 to go in 4 hours it's extremely unlikely that the last Anima tile will be unlocked via pledges (you would have to sell out ALL of the remaining 84 Early Birds PLUS another £300 of add-ons. Would have sold a hell of a lot more if you guys hadn't been pig-headed about asking people to add additional boards for £95 a pop instead of the £62 EB price considering how fast the x2 and x3 options sold.
Will it be unlocked by G&G anyway, or do we lose out on a far better design than the one you decided to unlock first? (and far, far better than the crappy "water feature" tile.)
I'll be checking back in the next few so I know whether to drop that board and save myself $100 before I go to bed for Christmas Eve night.
GamesNGears wrote:Have a good Xmas Eve night and an awesome new year!
We hope to unlock the last stretch! goal. 4 hours left!
I repeated my question on the KS comments... an answer would be good. If you don't personally know, can you call the person who does and ask?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And got an answer! If the 6th tile doesn't unlock for that theme you can pick which tile you want. But lowering the goal to 115k would give us a shot at hitting it... what do you think?
Fingers crossed for you guys, I do think you'll get a mini one, which a goal of 115k or 1000 backers helps incentivize. Thanks for passing that on and I'll check back here later when it is close to the end!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stretch goal is now 115k!
I'm also suggesting if one tile had to be dropped, make it the water one (just add another straight road) not the town square. But hopefully it hits 115k and that's all moot . But it'd be a great backup plan / failsafe, imo... the town square is too popular to leave out if you only make 5, and a second straight helps a lot, just like for 28mm urban.
Okay I actually have to go now will check back later.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Games and Gears - if we don't make the 115k for the town square tile DURING the campaign, if we hit it afterwards during the pledge manager, would it be unlocked then?
For instance I am going to add the felt and gaming trays to my pledge, but can't afford to do it for another week or two. That's 40 gbp right there that's not really "part" of the campaign.
I just bumped to a x3, so a x2 early bird is now available! Thought I'd let the Dakka community know!
Too much internal debating on the merits of the Anime, and then Anima or 28mm cityscape board. So why not all three at these awesome early bird prices!
Very happy to get this board for just over 101USD. I am really looking forward to using it for BattleTech, RoboTech, and Dropzone Commander. A great value KSIMO is better than one laden down with a ton of project-extending extras. I look forward to GnG's future KS projects if they're like this one.
I was sceptical from the get go but pledged on day 1 anyway hoping that things would improve. In the end, I dropped out at 7 minutes to go. It would take no effort at all to make this project awesome but sadly all the designs except DZC still look phoned in. The community might gobble up anything as long as it's plastic and cheap but I'd rather spring for a Secret Weapon board at full retail at this point. So mad that I missed that KS. Good luck, GG.
Hellscape is the only one I think has real problems. The Anima board may need a repaint but the design seems alright to me. Not gonna lie, however, it was it was the DZC and SDF boards that tempted me in.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but I think the DZC board is the same as the posters that come in the 2-player starter set.
In probably not the best period to run a KS you and community made this KS a reality!!
We are so stoked! Big thanks to you, your insight & comments, we have not saturated our market, we have brick and mortars and distributors lined up. The KS was us asking for the investment thanks to you all we got it. Now time to do the hard work and make it a time piece product and for every gamer inclined to have one in their home. With direct control of manufacturing and no 3rd party, these are going to be sweet!
lord_blackfang wrote: I was sceptical from the get go but pledged on day 1 anyway hoping that things would improve. In the end, I dropped out at 7 minutes to go. It would take no effort at all to make this project awesome but sadly all the designs except DZC still look phoned in. The community might gobble up anything as long as it's plastic and cheap but I'd rather spring for a Secret Weapon board at full retail at this point. So mad that I missed that KS. Good luck, GG.
I have a total different opinion than yours. I pledged for the Secret Weapon board and dropped out the last minutes. Why? Yes, they do look nice but only after you paint them. Although they give you true 3D effects, they are all fixed. You can't change them, add or take away anything. All these come down to a game board restricted to a particular scenario. Games & Gears boards, on the other hand, can be used in many setting despite different themes. In the end, I am glad that I go for Games & Gears instead of Secret Weapon boards.
I went for both . Good for different things, imo. I also pledged for the Warboard and MegaMat campaigns... will make a big comparison post when they all arrive (summer?). I think each has advantages and disadvantages, but all are great depending on what you want them for.
RiTides wrote: I went for both . Good for different things, imo. I also pledged for the Warboard and MegaMat campaigns... will make a big comparison post when they all arrive (summer?). I think each has advantages and disadvantages, but all are great depending on what you want them for.
I agree. You have my envy because I simply cannot afford to have all.
I had redirected my hobby purchases to playing surfaces, and hopefully will add a bit of terrain... too many models (plus ones I'm waiting on) in the queue already!
RiTides wrote: I had redirected my hobby purchases to playing surfaces, and hopefully will add a bit of terrain... too many models (plus ones I'm waiting on) in the queue already!
That's exactly the way I am going at present - such a painting backlog that buying boards/terrain makes more sense (and feels more morally justifiable )
Looking forward to seeing more pics from G&G soon!
When I finalised my pledge, you were charging £40 for two blank tiles. This was right on the edge of what I'd pay for a couple of 2x2 plastic squares.
I go to fill in my backers survey, and those same 2x2 tiles have gone up to £50 for two. This wasn't the deal I signed up for. Is it even allowed for project creators to change the deal once the kickstarter has ended? If so, can you refund my £40? I'll just have the regular board, and make my own blanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Online error with the backers kit, so not angry.
Backers got an update on the 20th a day after the post above yours.
Dear all,
Hope you are all well. This is a really short update with an extensive one to follow once we have the professional photo shots with us.
What has been going on so far:
- All Warsmith terrain molds are finished. We are just waiting for the professional pictures to be ready and approved so we can publish it. It's hard to keep silent about it they look amazing!!! Please be patient it will be a few days till we post anything
-Battle Boards are now in the molding process. It on schedule but we are meticulous. So it will be late march till we will post pictures on anything. We hope to ship these in late April or May to you. Getting the molds right and perfect is paramount right now.
- add-ONs like grid sheets are being approved for mass production.
A more extensive update is on it's way hopefully this week or early next week. The crew is super busy making. We also now have a gaming convention in August where all gaming boards will be battle boards.
Latest update, sounds like things are moving along nicely:
The dispatch dates for all battle boards are End of May. Closer to the time we will be able to give specific dates. If we can dispatch your orders earlier and give you a good surprise we will, but we are taking our time to insure there is no mistakes. Each battle themed will be sent in different times within May 2014 in this order:
1. Dropzone Commander Battle Board
2. Hawk Wargames Urban War Battle Board
3. Anime Wars battle board
4. Anima battle Board
5. Hellscape Battle Board.
We spent a lot of time with our forwarders discussing delivery times from our penciled in dispatch dates. Please allow 1-7 weeks for it to arrive to you allowing +1-3 weeks variance. Some of you will get it fast some of you won't. This is from our experience in posting from previous kickstarters. We also want these large items sent the safest and securest way and not rushed so items go missing or even more delayed due to internal forwarder paper works mistakes. We also have taking in variables out of our control: Countries customs speed, custom delays, possible postal strikes and the speed of each countries postal service varies greatly. But the good news is it will be with you. We mention the above purely based on our experience and it is better to be above board with our backers than not to be.
What if I got multiple battle boards from my pledge?
Each will be sent in with their Games & Gears battle box to your in the following order above in May 2014.
What about add ons?
These will be sent together at most times with you in May 2014. If your ADD-ON's order is big you might get a few boxes of awesome products .
What about order sheets for specific items?
We are looking to send those to you by the end of this Month in time for us to pack and dispatch.
Where are we now?
Moulds are nearly done. Mass production will be a few days to make & mass painting will take some time (all within April). Once we are happy we with the mass produced paint jobs we will start to publish professional shots of the battle boards. We know we are very slow in publishing stuff but a lot of things go into each stage. So please bear with us we want to show you the final product in all its glory.
As said in updates before, we are taking our time and have been very meticulous. So we are not cutting corners but were we can adding more (like the battle board box).
Thank you for the paypal orders:
Thank you for your continued support. it really helps . If you wish to add more to your order now please pm us now and we will send you a paypal invoice. Cut of date for paypal orders will be 25th of April. As beyond that date and in May will be packing and dispatching month ;P.
Thank you .
Other news come:
There is some big news to be announced soon. Which we will post in the announcement to do with Games & Gears and we know you will love it! Bear with us it have been a crazy busy few weeks and we have a lot in store for you and the gaming community.
Lastly this HUGE project could not have happened without your monetary support. Thank you for this and when you get it tell everyone about it. We want every home, club store to have battle board(s).
Unfortunately, delivery is supposed to be July for this now. Par for the Kickstarter course :-/
There was a good reason (flooding at the painting factory). But the fact that some were still being painted in China last week means a May delivery was never going to be possible, anyway.
...and we've ticked over month-to-month, and now the old classic has raised it's head:
Creator Games & Gears about 10 hours ago
@David, hopefully before Chinese New Year (Feb). So far we are within budget and the thankfully have not overextended ourselves in crazy shipping prices. Anything else let us know
David Doherty about 10 hours ago
Hellscape not in time for Xmas then. In time for my birthday in March maybe?!
The grammar of G&G has also been harder and harder to understand in the comments. Also, whoever the faceless nameless person there that used to do comms with overly florid but not-straightforward prose has been replaced with someone else who has poor English, poor grammar but is just as talented in using many words to say very little. Again repeating the same kinds of unclear and vaguely-worded platitudes. - There's no actual hard information in any of the comment replies from G&G. Just lots of warblegarble.
And every time I make a comment, they send me a PM (which would be ok if they gave actual information, but its as informative as their usual comments ie not at all)
I don't mind it being late, hell at least theyve got a reason which is more than most KS have, but this constant
G&G:"we're so pumped! Your boards are on the boat!"
Backer" Are they>"
G&G" Well no...but they're in the warehouse waiting to be on the boat! Here is a picture of something wrapped in plastic, woo!"
Backer" When will we get our boards?"
G&G" October! Woo! Pump! Woo!"
Backer"Its october, where are my boards?"
G&G"November! Yeah! Thanks for your patience!"
Backer" Its now November"
G&G "Pumped that one of the boards is now getting shipped! Pumped!"
Backer" Will I get my boards this year?"
G&G: silence
Davylove21 wrote: This is my first and only kickstarter backing experience and it has put me right off anything that isn't funded to crazy Ouya levels.
I already have no use for my board now, having moved since May to a small house in London. I just want to get it, sell it and put it behind me now.
I can sympathize with your plight here, but keep in mind that any Crowdfunding project that is funded to 'crazy levels' is then also usually really, really late when it comes to delivery as well...
This one has been a real disappointment. If they do come through, it will have been an amazing deal, but the wait can no longer be explained by the floods... they've had longer since that point than they did before it to make progress.
The real bummer is I talked two local friends into backing it, too, so now I'm the bad guy
I gave up on G&G with their first brush Kickstarter. Those double ended brushes were awful. (I didn't chip in on that KS - two of my friends did, in spite of my telling them that those brushes were just a bad idea to begin with. A niche that did not need filling.)
yeah, Those brushes were not great, but a pretty good value for money. And delivered on time.
Delivering on time was to be G&Gs thing!
But;
These boards are running 5-6month late now (due to floods...)
They are late with the photograph backdrops Add ons I bought in their second brush KS
So their KS on time gimmick is tarnished. The floods we are told ruined all the boards paint jobs, but we've still not seen production photos of the unpainted anime or hellscape boards. I don't think these have been made yet. The photo backdrops should have been incredibly easy to get printed while the KS was running and have out the door already.. no excuses.
The worst bit is I encurraged people to buy these boards and the other KSs Their 'grass roots' campaign. Like RiTides, I now feel that this has also tarnished my rep too!
I'm planning on repainting my Hellscape board when it arrives. Not hugely impressed at the delays as I was hoping to use the board for our gaming group's summer campaign.
Quite sad hearing absolutely nothing about the Hellscape board at all in the last email update. It would be great to have been able to select an "unpainted" option for the board and have it shipped out. Hell, I would have taken the "flood damaged" plastic (how does water damage plastic again? Just get a pressure washer and sluice everything off ) since I would have to strip the board anyway...
The water is bad enough here when places flood, I hate to imagine what bits of China would be like. I'd rather have a delay than get some horrible thing covered in Bantha poo-doo. Yuck.
In any case, I am wondering if thats even the real reason anymore. Apparently a lot of the paint jobs were ruined but considering its now longer between the flood and now than the end of the campaign and the flood I am wondering if it wasn't just a handy excuse.
SilverMK2 wrote: I'm planning on repainting my Hellscape board when it arrives. Not hugely impressed at the delays as I was hoping to use the board for our gaming group's summer campaign.
Quite sad hearing absolutely nothing about the Hellscape board at all in the last email update. It would be great to have been able to select an "unpainted" option for the board and have it shipped out. Hell, I would have taken the "flood damaged" plastic (how does water damage plastic again? Just get a pressure washer and sluice everything off ) since I would have to strip the board anyway...
Floods carry a lot of human/animal waste, toxic chemicals etc,
so rather than damaging the plastics I suspect (assuming they had been made) that the warehouse/factory where they were was sufficiently contaminated to send the lot to the rubbish tip
(and even washing/decontaminating them would not be a realistic possibility as you'd have to treat the wash water as contaminated waste and pay loads to get rid of it rather than just pour it down the sink like an individual washing a single item could)
SilverMK2 wrote: I'm planning on repainting my Hellscape board when it arrives. Not hugely impressed at the delays as I was hoping to use the board for our gaming group's summer campaign.
Quite sad hearing absolutely nothing about the Hellscape board at all in the last email update. It would be great to have been able to select an "unpainted" option for the board and have it shipped out. Hell, I would have taken the "flood damaged" plastic (how does water damage plastic again? Just get a pressure washer and sluice everything off ) since I would have to strip the board anyway...
Floods carry a lot of human/animal waste, toxic chemicals etc,
so rather than damaging the plastics I suspect (assuming they had been made) that the warehouse/factory where they were was sufficiently contaminated to send the lot to the rubbish tip
(and even washing/decontaminating them would not be a realistic possibility as you'd have to treat the wash water as contaminated waste and pay loads to get rid of it rather than just pour it down the sink like an individual washing a single item could)
Except this is China, you can dump whatever you want down the drain or in the river.
Regardless, the flood was a long time ago. Honestly, we only have their word on it, not even pics. I just want to see progress now... I PM'ed them many times about photos but they're very evasive. Frustrating, to say the least.
Here's their latest, in the comments of the last update:
Creator Games & Gears about 15 hours ago
@Ritides, you are right! just asked. If we can get all 3 done in one shipment we will which would be ideal for all of us.
On the pictures ok have forwarded the requests. I think UKHQ would like to get their hands on them first and take pics. But I know with strict budgeting the glaring priority is to get them to you first. Will push. But like with Anima I don't think it will be a fast process until they are happy with the paint job, pics etc etc.
It says nothing. I asked if Anima (fantasy board) was shipping before Anime Wars (futuristic board) as the latest update implied. You can never get a straight answer, or a single pic of something other than packaging material out of these guys.
Pete Melvin wrote: And every time I make a comment, they send me a PM (which would be ok if they gave actual information, but its as informative as their usual comments ie not at all)
I don't mind it being late, hell at least theyve got a reason which is more than most KS have, but this constant
G&G:"we're so pumped! Your boards are on the boat!"
Backer" Are they>"
G&G" Well no...but they're in the warehouse waiting to be on the boat! Here is a picture of something wrapped in plastic, woo!"
Backer" When will we get our boards?"
G&G" October! Woo! Pump! Woo!"
Backer"Its october, where are my boards?"
G&G"November! Yeah! Thanks for your patience!"
Backer" Its now November"
G&G "Pumped that one of the boards is now getting shipped! Pumped!"
Backer" Will I get my boards this year?"
G&G: silence
is getting pretty boring to say the least
I literally laughed out loud. Kudos, my friend. Kudos.
Pete Melvin wrote: And every time I make a comment, they send me a PM (which would be ok if they gave actual information, but its as informative as their usual comments ie not at all)
I don't mind it being late, hell at least theyve got a reason which is more than most KS have, but this constant
G&G:"we're so pumped! Your boards are on the boat!"
Backer" Are they>"
G&G" Well no...but they're in the warehouse waiting to be on the boat! Here is a picture of something wrapped in plastic, woo!"
Backer" When will we get our boards?"
G&G" October! Woo! Pump! Woo!"
Backer"Its october, where are my boards?"
G&G"November! Yeah! Thanks for your patience!"
Backer" Its now November"
G&G "Pumped that one of the boards is now getting shipped! Pumped!"
Backer" Will I get my boards this year?"
G&G: silence
is getting pretty boring to say the least
I literally laughed out loud. Kudos, my friend. Kudos.
Agreed, well done although not so sure about some of the ensuing images
It disturbs me that even though one of the boards is "on the boat" (is it? Its hard to tell) they are still "Working on the shipping" of said board.
Well which is it? Is it being shipped, loading to be shipped or about to have shipping thrust upon it?
"We're still in the black!"
Normally that would be good, but at this point as long as I get my frelling boards I don't care if the whole company tanks. They have been just, just awful.
I think there's a big language gap on this KS and coupled with questionable customer communications skills anyway, that's causing huge frustration.
I *think* that what they mean is that the Urban (Hawk 28mm, Cityscape, Sci-Fi) boards have gone onto the boat from China to the UK (and possibly the US - going from memory on that). In that respect, they have shipped (from production factory to packing location).
They are still working on local distribution arrangements e.g. ParcelForce or TNT for the UK. But they call this working on shipping - hence the confusion.
In the UK, I am expecting about 4-6 weeks on the water/ clearing customs (8th - 22 December?), then at least 2 weeks getting put into consumer packaging (22 Dec - 16 Jan - assuming 2 week shutdown over Christmas) at their base in Park Royal (IIRC), then those packages going out to customers taking about a week (?) (23/24 Dec - 24 Jan).
So taking my best guesstimates, best case would see delivery *just* before Christmas, worst would be towards the end of January for these first boards, assuming no major surprises pop-up. They suggest that the boat on the water time would be about a week shorter to the US, but I'd expect the in country delivery time to be substantially longer than in the UK, so you'd probably see about the same dates as the UK - the only big gain would be if the timing meant that the US totally avoided the Christmas shutdown.
I've given up *expecting* KS deliveries on any timescale now - it's just a nice thing when it does happen (8 backed that funded - 2 complete to all backers, 1 complete in all physical goods but not all rules development, 1 complete to me in physical goods but not all backers, 4 in various stages of completion and varying degrees of lateness - only 1 of the 8 hit its declared timescale).
richred_uk wrote: I think there's a big language gap on this KS and coupled with questionable customer communications skills anyway, that's causing huge frustration.
I *think* that what they mean is that the Urban (Hawk 28mm, Cityscape, Sci-Fi) boards have gone onto the boat from China to the UK (and possibly the US - going from memory on that). In that respect, they have shipped (from production factory to packing location).
They are still working on local distribution arrangements e.g. ParcelForce or TNT for the UK. But they call this working on shipping - hence the confusion.
In the UK, I am expecting about 4-6 weeks on the water/ clearing customs (8th - 22 December?), then at least 2 weeks getting put into consumer packaging (22 Dec - 16 Jan - assuming 2 week shutdown over Christmas) at their base in Park Royal (IIRC), then those packages going out to customers taking about a week (?) (23/24 Dec - 24 Jan).
So taking my best guesstimates, best case would see delivery *just* before Christmas, worst would be towards the end of January for these first boards, assuming no major surprises pop-up. They suggest that the boat on the water time would be about a week shorter to the US, but I'd expect the in country delivery time to be substantially longer than in the UK, so you'd probably see about the same dates as the UK - the only big gain would be if the timing meant that the US totally avoided the Christmas shutdown.
I've given up *expecting* KS deliveries on any timescale now - it's just a nice thing when it does happen (8 backed that funded - 2 complete to all backers, 1 complete in all physical goods but not all rules development, 1 complete to me in physical goods but not all backers, 4 in various stages of completion and varying degrees of lateness - only 1 of the 8 hit its declared timescale).
Yeah. As I've said before, the new comms guy is clearly different to the old comms guy (worse spelling, worse grammar) and they apparently can't afford a copy of MS word to use the spelling and grammar checker for their updates, which just smacks of massive professionalism. Let's be real, though - no-one is getting anything this year, despite their repeated promises.
I signed up for a Hawk 10mm board.
The Frontline Gaming and Tablewar (FAT) mats, funded at the same time as this. I'm going to have one of their SECOND GENERATION 10mm DzC mats, before I get my G&G mat, and I haven't ordered it yet.
to me
Kickstarter
You’ve received a refund for your pledge to the Games & Gears Battle Boards project. The details are below.
Games & Gears Battle Boards
Games & Gears Battle Boards by Games & Gears
Visit project
Amount pledged
£124.00
Reward
EARLY BIRD: x2 Games & Gears 6 by 4 battle board. This reward is for two Games & Gears 6 by 4 Battle Board, select two of the five battle board themes.FREE SHIPPING to: USA, UK, EU, CANADA, AUSTRALIA, NEW ZEALAND, JAPAN & SINGAPORE.EVERYWHERE ELSE PLEASE ADD 35.00GBP TO YOUR PLEDGE FOR SHIPPING.
Estimated delivery
May 2014
Shipping to
Earth
Dscn0093 %e5%89%af%e6%9c%ac.thumb
Games & Gears says:
If you have any questions about this, you can ask the project’s creator directly — just send them a message to get in touch.
Message the project creator
Thanks!
<3 Kickstarter
Azazel A about 2 hours ago
Easy solution to that - have the staff who speak English as a native language (or at least Fluently) write the updates? It's not rocket surgery, FFS.
Also, please invest in a copy of MS word for your ESL staff so they can run what they say through a spelling/grammar checker first. I'm not being sarcastic or trolling with that comment, either.
Seriously. Another poster came up with this fantastic description of what your communication is like and how it feels to be dealing with you at this stage - and he's right on the fething money:
G&G:"we're so pumped! Your boards are on the boat!"
Backer" Are they?"
G&G" Well no...but they're in the warehouse waiting to be on the boat! Here is a picture of something wrapped in plastic, woo!"
Backer" When will we get our boards?"
G&G" October! Woo! Pump! Woo!"
Backer"Its october, where are my boards?"
G&G"November! Yeah! Thanks for your patience!"
Backer" Its now November"
G&G "Pumped that one of the boards is now getting shipped! Pumped!"
Backer" Will I get my boards this year?"
G&G: silence
I posted the Pete Melvin stuff from Dakka because it's fething hilarious, and accurate - as I think most of us can agree on.
I also posted this in the general comments section, after reading Pete's post in this thread about "we no have cameras" and going to look for myself.
(More of the comment chain provided here for context, and because stuff gets lost).
Creator Games & Gears 17 minutes ago
We know this is frustrating, we are dealing with it and getting it sorted. We don't know any other kickstarter which has been affected like this and where on time. Hawk Urban War has been shipped. We have already explained much in previous updates. Good news is final phase is happen yes it's 6 months over due. There is nothing we can do about that but work hard and get it to you as soon as we can.
Creator Games & Gears 28 minutes ago
They got flooded too?
Creator Games & Gears about 8 hours ago
No we don't have camera's at factory and were are on 2G mobiles and have no idea is that is the same or better than the west. Pretty much it.
I then got refunded (read: Kicked out) in between their "They got flooded too?" and "We know this is frustrating, we are dealing with it and getting it sorted. " posts on their end.
At no point did I ask for a refund, and while I was pretty fething snarky, I make no apologies for that, especially in light of the bs and unintelligible warblegarble they've been feeding us for the last 6 months. And they're still using "flooding" as an excuse for everything - including apparently, why they don't have working cameras in China.
I'm pumped I dropped my pledge to $1. Pumped!
Would it be poor form to start posting in the KS comments in the same way G&G do?
Also Azazelx I'd report them to KS, specifically mention you were not pumped.
I was initially pleased with GnG, I placed an order for two of their paint racks when first released, and because they only sent me one they sent me an extra one to apologise (so I've got three.)
Now, the new rack is quite a lot more expensive, and half the size. One could say it was deflated, or "anti-pumped" if you will.
Not sure if it's against KS rules or not. Then again, I'm not sure if KS really have any "rules" anymore. (Even when they did they were made of chewing gum and elastic, as we know).
I'm in two minds, to be honest. I'm somewhat pissed off, but that is lessened by the fact that I've got my SWM boards, which I imagine are much higher quality than the G&G ones will be when they ship sometime next year.
Offering me (or any of us) a refund would have been fair enough, but booting me out (while pretending to keep talking to me in the comments) is classless as I obviously can't respond to them anymore. i.e: "They got flooded too?"
- Which is laughable since we were talking about cameras, not floods and delays.
They might have the "he was not respectful to us" defence to KS, though in my mind they haven't exactly been respectful to us with the level of their comms for the last few months (entirely aside from the delays).
So I dunno. I think I would have rather had the cheap table tops. But then again if the company treats their customers this way (remember, my snark is in direct response to months of their illegible warblegarble, bs and doubletalk), I'm not sure if they deserve my (or our) business? I just wish there was a way to link to this part of the thread in their comments!
At least we know that there's an eject button for this campaign if anyone wants their money back. Just make fun of them in the comments and watch their thin skin get prickled!
I'm not happy with the progress, but I don't think we should refer to them as the "ESL guys"... my wife has English as a second language and I think using the term that way is a bit crass, to be honest. (Edit: to clarify, I'm referring to the ordering of the terms / way they're used, not the term itself. I used to be a therapist and one thing we were very careful about was to say "children with autism" rather than "autistic children", since one emphasizes the child, but the other emphasizes their condition).
I've seen the DzC sample board in person at GenCon and it was sweet. Considering asking to swap just to those as the shallow detail is just fine for 10mm scale.
The communication and lack of solid info is certainly frustrating, though.
Just for the record - ESL isn't an offensive term here. Not in the slightest - and not meant in an offensive way - including in their comments. I've used it simply as an abbreviation of "guys who don't speak English as their native language", but in terms of using three letters instead of an entire sentence.
It's also rather different to NESB, because that's a different thing again. (Though people can be both - such as my father).
My criticism of ESL in the communications for this KS is in that it's simply not effective, and if they have people who speak English as a first language or ESL who can write it fluently, then those people should be the filter for the information presented to backers, regardless of where the info originates.
I asked for a refund and they're saying that they will only refund me £55 because KS already took their 10%. I'm holding fire because I'd like to know if that's legitimate?
Possibly. I didn't ask for one, and my bank hasn't processed anything yet so I have no idea how much I got back (or honestly, even if they did actually refund me).
Hmm, it seems that as the refund is issued via KS, wouldn't they return the fees, kinda like eBay? I feel like it's a tactic to keep me on board after I turned down the offer of one of he other boards
I'm honestly not sure. It's a good point, though - when you get a refund from eBay you get back all of the fees involved, right down to currency conversion.
Since I paid for this via CC. I'm going to have to wait a few days to see how much (or if) I actually got refunded. If mine is minus 10%, then I'll start kicking up a stink with KS.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I sent them a quick comment via KS asking what the story was. They replied with an explanation from their perspective - and apparently it's a full refund(?) I hadn't actually asked about the refund at all - so we'll see what happens/happened there in a few days.
I've sent them another reply, filling them in on why people are becoming angry and upset, and a little on customer service and how that experience gets shared. We'll see what happens, but I'll certainly keep you guys updated.
Davylove21 wrote: I asked for a refund and they're saying that they will only refund me £55 because KS already took their 10%. I'm holding fire because I'd like to know if that's legitimate?
Thanks
I've been reluctant to mention anything like I'm about to, partly because I didn't want to come across all "I told you so" and I assure you that it isn't the case, and partly because I have nothing to substantiate it other than my own gut feeling, but I am glad I haven't got any further involved with these guys.
As a customer, I can have no complaints with how I have been dealth with by GnG, they have been reasonable and beyond, but on a personal level, and this is speaking as someone who has spent years in sales, there is something that feels a little off.
I'm not making accusations of criminal behaviour, intent to deceive or anything similar, but there's something about their actions, both positive and negative, which smacks, to me, of being seen to do the right thing, rather than doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do, if that makes sense?
I'm really struggling to articulate what is essentially a gut reaction, but with regard to the KS fees, I get the impression that, even if it's true, they're glad about it?
If I had a colleague who acted the way I perceive them to be, I would probably use words like "sharp" or even "sharky"
I have singuarly failed to explain what I intended to my satisfation, but hopefully I've conveyed enough of what I mean!
I know what you mean. It's one of those frustrating instances where you know there is a word for what you want to describe but you don't know the word.
I was stung once many years ago by a fly-by-night webstore to the tune of about £60 (this is long ago enough that it was a good chunk of a Space Marine army) and the language they employed was similar to the language GnG use. It's as if they're forever buying time.
I want my boards, but if Im honest im not sure if i can be bothered waiting too far into 2015. I certainly wont be backing any future kickstarter projects of theirs and wont buy anything directly from them purely on principle. I hate having my face lied to.
The 10% fees not being refunded sounds about right, as it's a similar amount quoted by cmon and a couple of others that I have dealt with when the subject of refunds came up.
Me I am happy to wait but I have backed plenty of KS and there has been nothing out of the norm with this one time scales wise.
Hell i'm a survivor of the Relic Knights kickstarter
I opted for a refund because it's just been too long for me personally - I have no doubt that I would have received my Hellscape, just doubts about how soon. 100% refund received and I wish the best of luck to them going forward.
Alpharius wrote: I'm glad I dropped out of this one too - something always seemed a bit...'off' with this group.
I can't say I've been too impressed since, and I doubt I'll ever feel the need to purchase anything from them going forward.
I always felt like I was being overly critical for some reason or another, but following the past what (5/6 pages of this thread?). I'm pumped I didn't get in on this.
To those still waiting on your boards, I do hope they'll get to you soon. They've got some good designs and it's a shame that this project has lost a lot of steam :(
To those still waiting on your boards, I do hope they'll get to you soon. They've got some good designs and it's a shame that this project has lost a lot of steam :(
Lost steam....steam. Steam....pump. My god! Thats what they need the pumping for! More steam!
yeah,
Just seen that they kicked Azazelx out!
Have you told them if you want to stay or not ? ?
This has turned nasty pretty quick! I think a warning could have been issued via PM.
I'd be angry about being booted. It Kinda poisons their well for future projects.
The other thing is I don't understand why everyone started mega complaining about the photos.
It's exactly what I was asking for.
Non professional factory floor photos to show how the products looking right now.
Well, I think people may have been hoping to see fully painted examples, which we've only seen a few "samples" (not from the production run) at Cons... the above shows a clearly unpainted board, so still doesn't do much for communicating painting progress.
Their last couple of comments have been slightly more honest, but I doubt there IS any painting progress, at least on anything but maybe the first two boards. (I hope theyve painted the 28mm Hawk cityscape one, otherwise shipping it would have been silly, but the fact remains there is simply no evidence that they have been)
I stand by my previous statement, we will not see ANY of these before Christmas. The timelines are far too tight.
Agreed about their last few comments (and not seeing anything before the new year). But, at least they're being a little more communicative. They posted in the main comments that a thorough update will be coming Thursday, so we'll see then whether they answer questions / are more straightforward or not.
Been super busy with writing up end of year reports for work the last few days, so this hasn't had my attention. At about the time of my last post in this thread a few days ago I had a brief reasonably pleasant back and forth with them using my most reasonably pleasant tones. Their gist was that they wish I PMed them with that same feedback before using vulgar and aggressive language in the comments, and my reply was that I had been becoming more and more frustrated over several months of poor and almost illegible communication, and that the vulgarity was indirect rather than direct - ie "and he's right on the fething money" is quite different to "you fething anythings." They then said that they might be able to allow me back into the campaign via backerkit, and at that point I had to put all my energy into doing stuff for work this week. So my Dakka activity for the past couple of days has been limited to simple comments mostly in the KoW thread, and I haven't replied to them.
I also thought I'd wait and see what happens with the refund before making the call. Nothing has turned up in my account yet, so I'm still waiting and will decide what to do at the end of the week once this week's extra workload is done (got a budget proposal to write by Thursday for example, so I won't be putting anything into gaming or Dakka threads that requires much more thought than "ooh, shiny" and "lol maybe after Chinese New Year". Maybe I'll ask to go back in for one board instead of two? Maybe I'll put the money towards a PS4 for my wife as an early Christmas present? Split it between the two? I dunno, and I'm too busy with work right now to put any effort into this (for a couple more days, anyway) - or before I see my refund arrive in my account.
Azazelx wrote: Been super busy with writing up end of year reports for work the last few days, so this hasn't had my attention. At about the time of my last post in this thread a few days ago I had a brief reasonably pleasant back and forth with them using my most reasonably pleasant tones. Their gist was that they wish I PMed them with that same feedback before using vulgar and aggressive language in the comments, and my reply was that I had been becoming more and more frustrated over several months of poor and almost illegible communication, and that the vulgarity was indirect rather than direct - ie "and he's right on the fething money" is quite different to "you fething anythings." They then said that they might be able to allow me back into the campaign via backerkit, and at that point I had to put all my energy into doing stuff for work this week. So my Dakka activity for the past couple of days has been limited to simple comments mostly in the KoW thread, and I haven't replied to them.
I also thought I'd wait and see what happens with the refund before making the call. Nothing has turned up in my account yet, so I'm still waiting and will decide what to do at the end of the week once this week's extra workload is done (got a budget proposal to write by Thursday for example, so I won't be putting anything into gaming or Dakka threads that requires much more thought than "ooh, shiny" and "lol maybe after Chinese New Year". Maybe I'll ask to go back in for one board instead of two? Maybe I'll put the money towards a PS4 for my wife as an early Christmas present? Split it between the two? I dunno, and I'm too busy with work right now to put any effort into this (for a couple more days, anyway) - or before I see my refund arrive in my account.
PsychoticStorm wrote: I doubt most of us have injection molding machines to make such a type of board at our home.
There are reasons some of us backed it, although admittedly the delays have become frustrating.
You don't need an injection molding machine to make a completely flat board with 1mm deep cracks in it (if that).
I see time constraints as the only legitimate reason to buy something as basic as these boards, and, as I said, I think just keeping up with the project news and ranting on forums probably took the average backer longer than it would have taken them to just make such a board themselves.
It will be more heavy, may bend with high humidity, not as portable for organizing tournaments and I do not have to get in argument with the local wood cutting store (proper name?) for the a few mm make a huge difference, been lockable at the bottom is also a really nice bonus.
Been plastic (and relatively flat) is the thing that made them interesting to me.
Especially as you were in for some Secret Weapons boards too, right?
Yeah, honestly, even with some issues on the street board texture, they look considerably better. I'm quite pleased with mine, and will be snagging at least a ruined temple board at some point. In comparison, these look quite flat.
lord_blackfang wrote: You don't need an injection molding machine to make a completely flat board with 1mm deep cracks in it (if that).
I see time constraints as the only legitimate reason to buy something as basic as these boards, and, as I said, I think just keeping up with the project news and ranting on forums probably took the average backer longer than it would have taken them to just make such a board themselves.
I don't think I've seen anyone make boards by hand like the ones they have for Dropzone Commander. Due to being 10mm scale, the shallow detail is no problem, and it's infinitely better than the 1'x1' card tiles that come with the Hawk Wargames terrain set.
I saw the sample DzC boards in-person at GenCon in 2013, I believe? So, before the campaign launched. And they were awesome... shame it's taken so long to get this done.
Here's some from a Naftka blog post right after GenCon 2013 (I can't remember if I took pics myself, or not... but it is what got me to back their Kickstarter, as they were advertising it at the event!):
This is part of the reason why it's so frustrating having to continue to ask G&G for pics - obviously, this was a prototype and not from the production run, and they always reference their convention pics (although these are just from someone who attended the 2013 Con) but don't provide current / updated ones.
Davylove21 wrote: I opted for a refund because it's just been too long for me personally - I have no doubt that I would have received my Hellscape, just doubts about how soon. 100% refund received and I wish the best of luck to them going forward.
Davy,
After your initial 10% report, how easy was it getting the full refund?
I'll probably still keep my pledge as I really like the boards and the KS cost compared to retail is really nice, but I had to laugh when I looked at the Kickstarter and I saw we finished this up in December!
If it was me I wouldn't want to be back in a campaign after being treated like that.
Alpharius wrote: Me neither - I'd take the refund, happily.
Especially as you were in for some Secret Weapons boards too, right?
Absolutely understood on both parts - however - to be in a campaign for a product that you want, for it's entire 6 month wait, then a further 6-month wait, then to be ejected at the 11th (ok, maybe 9th) hour before delivery really feths me right off in an entirely different way. While I'm ...unlikely to back any future G&G projects, the price on these is good, and I do still have an actual use for them that is not covered by the SWM boards. So if I go back in, it'll entirely be for my own self-interest. Maybe it's similar to how Alph feels on the Imbrian Arts fiasco situation?
As I said though, I've been working silly hours this last week so I haven't had a proper chance to take stock and reflect. Or even think properly. Now I'm going to wind down from work, play some Titanfall and then to go sleep.
If it was me I wouldn't want to be back in a campaign after being treated like that.
Alpharius wrote: Me neither - I'd take the refund, happily.
Especially as you were in for some Secret Weapons boards too, right?
Absolutely understood on both parts - however - to be in a campaign for a product that you want, for it's entire 6 month wait, then a further 6-month wait, then to be ejected at the 11th (ok, maybe 9th) hour before delivery really feths me right off in an entirely different way. While I'm ...unlikely to back any future G&G projects, the price on these is good, and I do still have an actual use for them that is not covered by the SWM boards. So if I go back in, it'll entirely be for my own self-interest. Maybe it's similar to how Alph feels on the Imbrian Arts fiasco situation?
As I said though, I've been working silly hours this last week so I haven't had a proper chance to take stock and reflect. Or even think properly. Now I'm going to wind down from work, play some Titanfall and then to go sleep.
Fair enough - I can certainly understand that!
(And now that you mention it, I haven't gotten my semi-weekly helping of WTF?!? - I'm off to check the Imbrian Arts comments section!)
If it was me I wouldn't want to be back in a campaign after being treated like that.
Alpharius wrote: Me neither - I'd take the refund, happily.
Especially as you were in for some Secret Weapons boards too, right?
Absolutely understood on both parts - however - to be in a campaign for a product that you want, for it's entire 6 month wait, then a further 6-month wait, then to be ejected at the 11th (ok, maybe 9th) hour before delivery really feths me right off in an entirely different way. While I'm ...unlikely to back any future G&G projects, the price on these is good, and I do still have an actual use for them that is not covered by the SWM boards. So if I go back in, it'll entirely be for my own self-interest. Maybe it's similar to how Alph feels on the Imbrian Arts fiasco situation?
As I said though, I've been working silly hours this last week so I haven't had a proper chance to take stock and reflect. Or even think properly. Now I'm going to wind down from work, play some Titanfall and then to go sleep.
New update, certainly more comprehensive and open than before, the English is a lot clearer (not perfect, but less pumped for sure). However:
-"Are the boards finished painted?" - Anima Battle board: No just over 50% done taking longer as there is more work to it than others
- Hellscape: No have not started yet but we do have a slick painting plan for it and as soon as we are happy with it will release picks as soon as they have painted a sample.
-"The good news is we are wrapping up this kickstarter"
Uh...no you're not. The boards aren't even finished yet, let alone on the boat, let alone being shipped to us. That in no way is "wrapping up"
They're still going on about the factory flood and this time they are also trying to say "hey, we're the good guys here! We helped out the guys who got flooded! We weren't tied into a contract we couldn't get out of or nuthin' guv! Chim-chiminey!"
The redesign was, I think, after the other boards got flooded if I am reading it correctly (I fully admit I may not be). The old ones are probably a bit effluenty for public consumption.
PsychoticStorm wrote: I am more interested in the fact they claim they redesigned the entire boards, what happens to the old ones? was the redesign early in production?
Still nice to see it moving again.
Wouldn't "seeing" it moving require visual proof like pics or vids? Maybe I'm just jaded from the Robotech KS where we were told for months how [tony the tiger] GGGGREAT! [/tony] things were going only to have 1/3 delivered a year late and to find out that literally everything they did had to be redesigned WHILE they were telling us how awesome things were. I'm firmly now in the pics or it didn't happen KS crowd.
Anyone else seriously disappointed with the look of the final product? It appears we've gone from this:
To this:
Doesn't seem remotely like the renders to me... They state that the grey has been painted, but looking at one of the pics in the update, the underside of the board is the same colour, which makes me think its just bare plastic. The comments on both the latest update, and the overall KS page, they don't even seem to comprehend that the final product is a million miles away from the renders.
I was always planning to crack out the airbrush and modify mine but yeah I can imagine for those who wanted it looking like the renders this is a serious blow. The main worry is if enough people do complain and they decide to change ALL of them, they do seem rather keen on knee-jerk changes based on not much feedback from one or two people, (like all this business about non-signed for shipping maybe increasing the delay, I'd rather just have it sent signed for as it's massively quicker).
Yeah, I guess maybe people thought they would be inked, or the grassy area painted, but I think they determined a while back to leave it blank for people to add dirt / flock themselves.
The two local friends I talked into this have all switched to the Dropzone Commander (10mm) boards with me - I don't have confidence in this company any longer, and just want to receive the boards. The 10mm scale makes the shallow detail a non-issue, and the boards worked great when demo'ed at GenCon 2013.
It's been a while coming, this Kickstarter... I'm ready to have it finished but it just seems they drag their feet / create excuses at every step. I can't believe they haven't worked out how they're going to ship these after all this time, and that they weren't ready to bang out starting to ship them with how long people have waited (as opposed to Secret Weapon, who have made huge blunders, but at least got rolling on shipping the moment they could...).
It has been a long road and I'll be glad when they're finally delivered! I still hold out hope that the product is worth it, but it has definitely been a patience-trying experience with their non-answers and excuses, and lack of progress towards actually delivering.
Hmmm, I am glad that I lost confidence in this company back during their first brush Kickstarter.... Though I think that the result with these boards can be pretty good if you put in the work. The boards going from painted/printed to unpainted, though.... :(
For folks that don't mind using cardstock, take a look at Mayhem: Streets of Legend by World Works Games:
I had a lot of fun with that set when I was running a Fallout game using Spycraft 2.0. Still a bit of work (fifty gazillion li'l bits of cardboard to print out, cut out, and assemble) but the results were definitely worth it.
*EDIT* The set is $11.50 for the PDF - you will still need a printer, ink, hobby knife, glue stick.... But you can print out as much as you need.
Yeah, I'm at the point now where I just want my stuff, but what attracted me to the project in the first place was fully painted boards, so that I could concentrate on getting a crap ton of terrain ready instead, but at the 'paint' level its at, it'll be a complete repaint for me. Just a hassle I thought I was paying to avoid.
Ah well. guess I'd better order lots of ink and grey...
That looks like polystyrene ceiling tile foam that's been scored with a hobby knife. Glad I was too slack to try and get back in on this one and spent the refunded money on Warlord Historicals instead.
Eggs wrote: Anyone else seriously disappointed with the look of the final product? It appears we've gone from this:
To this:
Wow... yeah... not even close. I almost backed this as well but ended up going with a custom mat instead with the DZC style tiles on it. This is yet another kickstarter that I can happily say that I'm glad I didn't hit the pledge button on. I don't say that to gloat but rather because my opinion on kickstarters in general has matured and I'm much more willing to simply say right off the bat that I'd rather wait for retail than get a "deal" like this if it means paying sight unseen. That board doesn't look painted but rather just plastic. I would have expected the recessed area to be painted green and the street tiles to at least have alternating colors like the original pic.
By the time they get to my hellscape board I have a feeling that they may have to send it to my great, great grand children... At least then genetic engineering, cybernetic enhancements and improvements in manufacturing may mean that it will be painted well
Is it just me, or are their responses on the KS comments getting more and more nonsensical?
2000 copies of the first board to check, and the entire project only has under a thousand backers? Even if half the backers ordered the hawk board, that leaves 1500+ boards. I'm finding what they say harder and harder to believe.
Maybe they're counting each individual square piece as a separate board? Also, some folks might have ordered more than one. Or they ordered more to cover retail/normal method orders as well? If the former, it's creative math. If the latter, they should check those additional ones AFTER they've packed and shipped for folks who paid first, not before.
In fact, they've stated that there are 2000 copies of each board, which means they've either managed to manufacture 12,000 battle boards, including having them painted (badly), ship them from china to various ports around the world, along with various items of terrain, clips etc, for under a tenner a board, or they are telling big fat porkies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
warboss wrote: Maybe they're counting each individual square piece as a separate board? Also, some folks might have ordered more than one. Or they ordered more to cover retail/normal method orders as well? If the former, it's creative math. If the latter, they should check those additional ones AFTER they've packed and shipped for folks who paid first, not before.
No, they stated each theme has 12,000 pieces - 6 sections per board, which puts it at 2000 copies. If their kickstarter campaign, which was widely publicised, only attracted 982 customers, then they will have 11,118 boards in stock to shift. The cynic in me is starting to smell something fishy.
Say we're generous, and only knock off £9k for the extras ordered - terrain, extra individual tiles, dice trays and grid sheets etc. That leaves £110,000 for 12,000 battle boards. That means they've manufactured and painted 12,000 boards at £9 and change. That's before we've looked at packaging, bulk shipping and individual distribution. And they've repeatedly stated that the project is still in the black. Don't know about you folks, but for me, that just doesn't seem possible.
Maybe they're just liars and I'm this > < close to just asking for my money back. If those are the finished boards then I hope to the gaming gods that its just a bad washed out photo.
Fed up with this one, just want it to be over, boards or no.
Edit: I just checked to see when the last time they commented on Dakka, it was just after the KS funded so over a year ago. We have your money, now we don't want to talk to you.
Check that woooo soldier! There is still nothing about when backers will see anything arrive, and no sign of the scenery that they said had been shipped. Woo denied, 3 weeks confined to barracks.
That is a damned fine point, I don't think I've seen any 'yay I got my scenery' comments but there's lots of ones asking where it is when they were talking about shipping it ages ago.
I'm frustrated that we're fast approaching this being a year late, its 9 months since the flood which is longer than they initially quoted that we would get our boards had they not been flooded and yet they continually use the flood as an excuse.
Even if they needed to start from scratch (which they should not have), we should have these in our hands by now. But we don't, and I would bet good money that the first boards dont reach anyone in March despite what they say.
I'm getting rather bored of having an update every few days that gets my hopes up, only for it to be another set of photos of the same boards with no extra news, for no apparent reason.
I got my Hellscape terrain yesterday and I really like it. I'm still waiting for my Hellscape board, but thanks to several previous KS, I'm not as stressed as many others by the delay. It is annoying, but I had worse KS delays.
Well that's me got a refund. Wish them well with their project, but I got sick of waiting, was disappointed with the end result, and got heartily pissed off with their bizarre forms of communication. I suspect they were just glad to be rid of my criticisms.
If I have to paint the thing from scratch, I'm as well building a board from scratch...
If I have to paint the thing from scratch, I'm as well building a board from scratch...
Was starting to get a bit fed up with all the non-updates and then I decided to look at this thread.
From what I've seen on their site, what I've read here and the ongoing delays, I've asked for a refund. Would rather use the refund to get a mat off another company. What's been shown is not representative of the quality of what was shown and promised during the campaign.
Eggs wrote: Cash is back in the bank. Once I've wrapped up my own kickstarter this weekend, I'm going to try making and casting something similar with the funds.
Well ok, but if your shed floods and ruins your new boards could you complain about it once and then shut up about it?
Ha ha! That's part of why I gave up. That, and they really couldn't understand why I was annoyed at the level of paint job compared to the art they showed during the campaign.
I've been communicating with them since I had committed to bringing some of the Dropzone Commander 10mm boards to AdeptiCon to use in the tourney there. They have assured me that they will have them out in time, so here's hoping it's true!
Sorry if muh furrin speak aint not so good like . Is it just me or has a whole swathe of comments vanished from their KS page? There are comments from 13 and 17 hours ago, and then it goes to 2 days. There were a LOT more comments from yesterday Im certain.
At this point for me they would have to show a live video feed of them packing the boards into boxes and taking them to the post office for me to believe them.
Ah but according to them, thats not what was ever promised. #bendingthetruth, #implications, #regretbackingthis, #howdohashtagsworkimold, #overdidthis"joke"
I was planning on repainting my hellscape board anyway (one of several reasons I am annoyed at the delays of this board for repainting/paint scheme - especially given the "paintwork" on the street boards we have seen)... assuming I ever get it...
I was planning on at least slapping extra detail onto my boards but I guess a lot of people were not even considering the possibility they might have to paint the majority of the board themselves, it really is a poor showing from them.
To call those boards "pre-painted" is bordering on just outright untruth,
Frankly, I am fed up with the constant delays, the poor communication and the half-truths and sometimes outright lies. I have no confidence that G&G will get these to us in any kind of sensible time period or that the final product will reflect what they have promised at the outset of this project.
From the main project page: "ALL BOARDS COME BASED PAINTED AS IN THE PICTURES!!"
Thats clearly NOT the case with thee 28mm Dropzone boards.
We were promised an update every friday. Surprise surprise thats dropped off their radar.
Boards are promised to be delivered over and over again and nothing turns up.
People havent gotten their promised scenery.
Constant messages of "we're in the black". We don't CARE. We just want our boards. (or did)
I was stocked for these boards a year ago, now this whole thing just leaves a bad taste in the mouth. I don't think that these are total vapourware, I would guess some people might see these before the end of the year but Im tired of it all.
Good luck to all who remain, I hope you get your boards soon and they are to your liking. I wouldnt hold your breath though
Automatically Appended Next Post: And they've got back to me to expect my refund within 48 hours. Only quick thing they've done all fething kickstarter.
Frankly, I am fed up with the constant delays, the poor communication and the half-truths and sometimes outright lies. I have no confidence that G&G will get these to us in any kind of sensible time period or that the final product will reflect what they have promised at the outset of this project.
From the main project page: "ALL BOARDS COME BASED PAINTED AS IN THE PICTURES!!"
Thats clearly NOT the case with thee 28mm Dropzone boards.
We were promised an update every friday. Surprise surprise thats dropped off their radar.
Boards are promised to be delivered over and over again and nothing turns up.
People havent gotten their promised scenery.
Constant messages of "we're in the black". We don't CARE. We just want our boards. (or did)
I was stocked for these boards a year ago, now this whole thing just leaves a bad taste in the mouth. I don't think that these are total vapourware, I would guess some people might see these before the end of the year but Im tired of it all.
Good luck to all who remain, I hope you get your boards soon and they are to your liking. I wouldnt hold your breath though
Automatically Appended Next Post: And they've got back to me to expect my refund within 48 hours. Only quick thing they've done all fething kickstarter.
Pete,
Any specific reason you decided to drop now versus before? Just a culmination of things I assume?
I saw your post further up and am in the same boat as you. I am pledged for a few board and some extras, but really just want the anima board at this point.
I'm assuming though you did not have a Hawk Board? (I see you dropped right before they posted the ship update) Since they apparently just shipped, I doubt I can get the refund now. Guess I'll just look to flip those for something in between the pledge and retail price.
It was just the whole thing. Its been building and building and when I saw the state of the 28mm city boards, the constant lies, the "hey we're shipping!" with no evidence to back it up.
I've lost interest in the boards as well. The projects they were intended to be used for have been finished or have fallen by the wayside 9 months after they were supposed to be in our hands. The whole "allow 5-25 days to deliver" broke the back of it.
"We've kept you waiting for no discernable reason, now wait some more!"
Feth them.
No I didnt have the Hawk board. I hope people get them at some point, I've just lost interest in what now looks to be a shoddy product. Ill give them this, the Anima board looks good. The city ones do NOT reflect what they made them out to be.
Pete Melvin wrote: It was just the whole thing. Its been building and building and when I saw the state of the 28mm city boards, the constant lies, the "hey we're shipping!" with no evidence to back it up.
I've lost interest in the boards as well. The projects they were intended to be used for have been finished or have fallen by the wayside 9 months after they were supposed to be in our hands. The whole "allow 5-25 days to deliver" broke the back of it.
"We've kept you waiting for no discernable reason, now wait some more!"
Feth them.
No I didnt have the Hawk board. I hope people get them at some point, I've just lost interest in what now looks to be a shoddy product. Ill give them this, the Anima board looks good. The city ones do NOT reflect what they made them out to be.
Thanks Pete. Yeah, I get that. And agreed, the Hawk board looks nothing like the mock-ups, a reason I will look to move it on.
I also just realized I messaged them a month ago asking some questions and never got a reply back. Seems like the only way to get their attention is through the comments section! Not sure if I can get a refund at this point, but we shall see!
Sorry to hear about the missed projects. We've all been through a bit of ride!
Taken for a ride more like. The more I think about it the more I realise they were just never going to hit their target date. They must have been over-joyed when the factory was "flooded", if indeed it ever was.
Its been pretty much half truths from that point onwards.
As for missed projects, well they probably would have been missed anyway. I suffer from what I call "next game syndrome" where I will be preparing for one game but thinking about what Im going to do once Im finished with this one, which then impacts on the work for my current game. I hear it is common and highly infectious amongst wargamers.
So what's the status on this stuff at this point? I found an old document from months ago about 10 minutes ago that had them claiming that all boards were manufactured and that several were painted etc. We've still got an Anima board coming (in theory) via my wife's account.
Some of the boards are pumped to be in the post. But don't get your hopes up too much in case the post office floods and then goes on holiday for 3 months because it is postman's new year.
Azazelx wrote: So what's the status on this stuff at this point? I found an old document from months ago about 10 minutes ago that had them claiming that all boards were manufactured and that several were painted etc. We've still got an Anima board coming (in theory) via my wife's account.
Boards may or may not have been manufactured
Boards may or may not have been painted
Boards may or may not have been packed
Boards may or may not have been shipped
Boards may or may not be pumped to the maxxx
Its a load of majeure*, it really is
SilverMK2 wrote: Some of the boards are pumped to be in the post. But don't get your hopes up too much in case the post office floods and then goes on holiday for 3 months because it is postman's new year.
Postman's New year was cancelled due to the Postman's New Year ball being flooded. Sorry, I mean force majeured. This will mean a further 6 month delay as the Postmen used the boards as a breakwater and they need to be built and painted again. By painted they mean a single 1" strip of black along the middle and done. Because all the paint was watered down with majeure and they ran out. Additonal 2 year delay.
* this is a pun, or play on words. I am quite pleased with myself.
So yet more delays? I'm glad I bailed now. I've done some maths and I reckon I can knock up some resin cast things of a similar nature for a similar price, so I'm going with that instead.
Yeah not a single board has turned up yet and its getting on for mid-afternoon on the 'last day they should be turning up', looks like they're about to have another force majeure heading their way in the form of 'mildly displeased' backers.
After the joke that was their London convention last summer (the tabletop gaming side had a grand total of about 14 players over the weekend, which was in some ways a blessing), it was fairly clear that pretty much everything G&G say is at best exaggeration.
I did get the chance to see the one test board they brought over in person, and the build quality was certainly good. Unfortunately, I can't for the life of me remember what the paintjob was like.
I backed the KS way back when, but luckily enough have plenty of other stuff to be getting on with until such time as the board turns up.
Like most kickstarters, I'm so glad I didn't back this. I have been very unhappy with the quality of the brushes I got from their first ks, and I at least got them!
Yeah, depending on what their excuse is like when these don't show up I might just cut my losses and ask for a refund. Especially since I put in for a hellscape board, which at this rate may show up just in time for me to add some snow flock to it to match the conditions which actually exist in hell...
SilverMK2 wrote: Yeah, depending on what their excuse is like when these don't show up I might just cut my losses and ask for a refund. Especially since I put in for a hellscape board, which at this rate may show up just in time for me to add some snow flock to it to match the conditions which actually exist in hell...
Yeah it's past the hours these things usually appear, not a single report of a delivered board, time to start venting my displeasure. Hopefully I won't get ninja refunded just yet as I still want the damned thing as less than £70 for modular plastic is pretty damned good. Still if they really are with their 'bulk shipper' they shouldn't be able to, but who knows if even that is true any more.
I unsubscribed from their updates. It's a shame, I've been a big supporter of them... but they've not only let folks down, they've continually misled . I have no idea when I and my two friends will get our DzC boards...
New update has just gone up and couldn't help notice this-
-At this stage all Hawk Wargames battle boards are to be fulfilled well before mid May 2015
Full after support bit-
KS After support:
Don't panic!! Fear not they are on there way. If you have not got your set it is on its way and you will get well before the General release day (31st of May 2015).
Please PM us and let us know if you have not got it yet. We will be taking your details and forwarding them to our forwarder. Purely based on our Ichiban KS a few do slip by out estimated date on when you should get them. Based on that everyone that has not got their set yet will get their boards within 2-3 weeks (based on past experience and results.
Delays could be:
- Re-deliveries
- Address's not fully completed (we got a few of those here and in our Ichiban KS)
- Missed deliveries and couriers not leaving you a missed delivery card and going back to the warehouses
- Your board still in transit.
-At this stage all Hawk Wargames battle boards are to be fulfilled well before mid May 2015. We leave no backer behind. (Based on previous KS experience and track record)
So please be patient they will turn up and are turning up!
- Please PM us as we build a list of backers still waiting for their Hawk Urban Wars & push our forwarder hard to see where they are at when they will arrive to you.
- We will compile a list and send it off tomorrow 7pm so please PM us and Monday we should get info back to you if you have not gotten it by then
Please again note they will be with you soon and well before the General Release date
Please let us know when you get your Hawk Urban War Battle Board .
ALL PM's have been answered as of yesterday 14th of April. Any Pms after than will be answered within 24-48hours.
Hawk Wargames Battle Board Pre-orders
Send us a pm if you want an extra set and we will give you a discount which will give you 15% off the MSRP £140.00GBP. We expect a sell out in the weeks and months to come.
Please kindly note there is 50 day period of grace to insure all backers get their Hawk Wargames Urban War battle board. Before the general public get theirs. We never allow non KS backers to get their boards first. This has always been our unique policy with all our KS's. It is about doing the right thing
I was quite excited for this but all the rubbish they have spouted and continual delays have slowly annoyed me more and more.
It's just a bit infuriating that they are suggesting that any that have not arrived are the freak remnants, but no-one anywhere has reported receiving a single board. At all.
me on their Facebook page wrote:Richard Davies If only a single Kickstarter backer had received their boards per the promises.
Like · Reply · 39 mins
Games & Gears Hey man, based on the Warsmith Terrain where the majority of the 200 plus backers got theirs early this year we got no feedback till March.... So it takes a few weeks if it is anything like the Warsmith stuff... So people should have... just waiting for one of the vocal people of engaged people to get theirs
Like · 35 mins
Richard Davies Alice promised full delivery to all backers by the 15th April for the first board (that I'm signed up for). NOt one backer has posted anywhere on the internet that they have received it.
Like · 1 · 31 mins
Games & Gears yeah same thing as the warsmith stuff but it aint no conspiracy. If you have not got yours man, pm them. I think you will get stuff popping up takes a few weeks based on exp Like · 26 mins
Richard Davies I'll pm tomorrow
Like · 1 · 25 mins
Games & Gears once stuff pops on the internet I mean
Like · 25 mins
Games & Gears Cheers Richard. It's been a freaking hard time for them. Nightmare scenario for them to deal with it, but its getting sorted. By all means not perfect man, but as long as its great quality and the end product is good, the pain we have all shared will be worth it I think bud. They've been damned if they do and don;t from the start of damn floods. Thanks man for understanding.
Like · 17 mins
Seen a few times where G&G staff refer to different projects as if they are distinct entities - anyone know how G&G are structured? Are they a single Limited company? A group of individuals running as a partnership? Why didn't I check this bit out before pledging?
I'm now at the stage that the random gobbledigook that they post on gheir updates makes me laugh. They only had to make what, 1000 orders? How hard can that be?
They may turn up eventually, I guess. Of course l'll never order anything more from the floundering buffoons!
Another update is up, seems they might sell out of boards as pre-orders are going so well, as if telling us that is somehow a positive thing for us.
As usual a massive list of 'wah wah it isn't our fault' before they get stuck in to anything. They then claim to have answered all PM's sent before midnight, which is a lie as they certainly haven't responded to mine.
At least they're offering a refund option officially now, which just goes to show how far along they are in terms of delivering them. Especially if they think you'll still be able to get one up until at least the 18th, which means don't expect any to turn up before then.
These guys are the absolute worst. That summary that one of the backers has put up in blog is a monument to G&G's non stop lies.
Spoilered below:
Spoiler:
Nov 2014 - Kickstarter funds within 12 hours, promising to deliver the next generation of tabletop boards
24/12/2014 - Kickstarter successfully funded
22/01/2014 - Backers Kit locked down, no more addons can be selected
20/02/2014 - Battle Boards in molding process, on schedule to deliver May 2014
01/03/2014 - Still in mold making process, we are told that this is the longest process of the production and that the mass production process thereafter is quite fast. Told that some may even deliver earlier than the May 2014 deadline!
14/03/2014 - We are told that we will be given a battle board carrying box for free as a packaging solution. This will be a sturdy box with a plastic handle.
01/04/2014 - We are told that we are on target for May 2014 dispatch, Molds are nearly done and then mass production will be a few days. Painting will take place during April and all will be completed during this time.
01/05/2014 - Everything still on track for dispatch during May
16/05/2014 - Some severe flooding in the area of China the boards are being painted, according to news reports caused by poor drainage systems during monsoon season. Production is untouched, but 30% of the cardboard boxes are ruined and approx 20% of the boards themselves.
Estimated a 25 day delay as will need to be repainted.
26/05/2014 - Battle Boards getting back on track, We are told they are a week behind schedule on Urban War Battle Boards but that they will be dispatched in July
07/07/2014 - Battle Boards should be with you August / September
23/08/2014 - Battle Boards estimated shipping late September. Delivery time quoted as 4-12 days to the EU
08/10/2014 - Boards not dispatched yet. We are told they are trying to ensure they can ship them at a price which will ensure the kickstarter is kept in the black.
18/10/2014 - Boars almost ready for dispatch
04/11/2014 - Boards sent to Port in China. We're told once they're in the UK warehouse it'll take a week to repack and re-check, following which we will get a 1 day delivery from TNT.
05/12/2014 - Boards should be in the UK this week, then will need sorting and should dispatch January after Christmas holidays. "Even with possible port delays or customs delays it's still on it's way for us to get the gears rolling for Jan 2015 dispatch to your door"
19/12/2014 - Boards are at the UK Warehouse
17/01/2015 - Boards have ALL?!? been unpacked, quality checked, then packed back in their boxes. Should be completed early next week.
28/01/2015 - Dispatch estimate now of February 2015, hoping to make delivery 2-4 days instead of 5-25
09/02/2015 - Boards will be dispatched wc 20th February, new delivery date of Mid-Late March
09/03/2015 - Boards all dispatched, delivery is 5-25 days and everyone should have theirs by 15th April 2015
13/03/2015 - Exciting times, "all boards will be with you by or before April the 15th" Battleboard clips sent separately from China and should be here within 10-20 days.
01/04/2015 - Quote: "As per previous update please allow your Urban Wars to get to you by the 15th of April 2015. We understand there is a lot of excitement and frustration in getting your boards now but they are coming to you, all shipping is prepaid so they have to get to you by the deadline date at least. "
So it's now the 16th April, I've not received anything, neither has anyone who's posting on the Kickstarter comments, I have not had the clips either that apparently were sent separately from China.
Apr 16 2015
Wow Hawk Wargames Urban War Battle Boards Pre Order madness thank you!
6 Comments
1 like
Hey All,
Really quick update!
Just a big thank you to so many of you who pre-ordered the boards. We think we will sell out soon . Seriously thanks to you for your amazing support and the gaming community.. really lifts our spirits up here . But we still have much work to do and will insure all backers get their hawk urban wars before the retail date easy!
Just a recap of what we have been through to get these out:
- Floods
- After visiting plant post floods decided to to remake all the board
- re-did molds for better board integrity
- re-did entire injection process
- re- painting process all the new boards , supplier kept delaying delivery time again and again. Got a lot of errors in relaying delivery times to our backers because of this... too many.
- re- packing and QC checking, with new implementations from previous highly successful fulfilled KS's we did
- Sent out Hawk Urban War battle boards via a slow bulk shipping rate fee to make sure we can afford to send these out.
- Hawk Urban War Battle boards to be fully fulfilled prior retail release date. Insuring all backers get their boards first 100%.
All of the above at no extra cost to our awesome backers. It's been a feat but not an easy one.
After Service:
Those who are have not had their slick Hawk Wargames battle board yet. All PMs from 12am Last night have been answered. I have sent inquiries and will correspond with you via PM we got you.
All Pm's post 12am today will start replying 8pm tonight.
If you haven't got your Hawk Urban War battle board, Don't Panic, they are in transit and will be with you. They are on their way and we have a tracked record of fullfilling gears 100% once they have been dispatched.
If you are still unhappy with not having your Hawk Wargames Urban War Battle Board with you at this moment and unhappy to wait any longer. We can attempt a recall from the forwarder and refund you if we are able to. They are in transit and will turn up well before the retail release date (31st of May). Please PM us before 6pm on the 18th of April 2015 about this as it may not be possible if it is a few days away from you. PM us and we can see what we can do, we will try our best even at this stage. If we cannot do it because it is in transit, and not a missed delivery or delivery error, please wait will be with you within the period of grace. We are working really hard to insure you get sorted and you will well get them before the period of grace ends. So we kindly really do hope we have your patience.
Please bear in mind what we have been through has been exceptional in terms of turning it around and we have not delivered any Hawk Urban War battle Boards to non backers. You get yours first. So we are doing the best we humanely can.
For those of you who have got yours or are turning up will post this video as a reminder:
Just a quick update.
Another one to come tomorrow!
Yours,
Alice
"Next Generation Battle Boards, Enhancing The Game To The Next Level."
Apr 16 2015
Wow Hawk Wargames Urban War Battle Boards Pre Order madness thank you!
6 Comments
1 like
Hey All,
Really quick update!
Just a big thank you to so many of you who pre-ordered the boards. We think we will sell out soon . Seriously thanks to you for your amazing support and the gaming community.. really lifts our spirits up here . But we still have much work to do and will insure all backers get their hawk urban wars before the retail date easy!
Just a recap of what we have been through to get these out:
- Floods
- After visiting plant post floods decided to to remake all the board
- re-did molds for better board integrity
- re-did entire injection process
- re- painting process all the new boards , supplier kept delaying delivery time again and again. Got a lot of errors in relaying delivery times to our backers because of this... too many.
- re- packing and QC checking, with new implementations from previous highly successful fulfilled KS's we did
- Sent out Hawk Urban War battle boards via a slow bulk shipping rate fee to make sure we can afford to send these out.
- Hawk Urban War Battle boards to be fully fulfilled prior retail release date. Insuring all backers get their boards first 100%.
All of the above at no extra cost to our awesome backers. It's been a feat but not an easy one.
So they designed, made, checked, and supposedly shipped the boards. Um... I know I'm not the most experienced KS backer (only two projects so far) but... what exactly in that list should NOT be included in the kickstarter contract they agreed to with backers? I don't see anything that should ever be at "extra cost to our awesome backers".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ignatius-Grulgor wrote: Another update is up, seems they might sell out of boards as pre-orders are going so well, as if telling us that is somehow a positive thing for us.
Look on the bright side... maybe one of the preorder customers will post pics of their board when he/she gets it and you'll see what you're actually getting eventually. :(
One of the two people that I know who backed the Kickstarter did get replacements - the other just relegated the brushes to being used for glue.
The one that bothered getting replacements was not above making a stink about shoddy product.
As far as I know those brushes have all been relegated to the dust bin - but on the plus side, people's comments on those brushes introduced me to Rosemary & Co . - manufacturers of very good brushes at reasonable prices.
Neither of those backers have bothered with G&G since - the company had one chance to make a first impression, and that impression was not a favorable one. As a result a group of some twenty miniature painters will never buy any brushes from G&G.
Me, I just added them to the list of companies that I will never buy anything from at all. (A fairly short list.)
The idea of double ended brushes never struck me as a good one to begin with - and I still see no reason why I would want them.
I can't believe anyone would be foolish enough to preorder any of these boards through their website. Nothing this company has done has been on the up and up.
inquisitorlewis wrote: I can't believe anyone would be foolish enough to preorder any of these boards through their website. Nothing this company has done has been on the up and up.
A fool and their money...
HL Mencken wrote:No one in this world, so far as I know—and I have researched the records for years, and employed agents to help me—has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.
TheAuldGrump wrote: G&G released a series of badly made double ended brushes - they gave replacements, and the replacements often had the same problem.
It was not a matter of folks not getting them in a timely fashion, it was a matter of people getting really crappy brushes.
The Auld Grump
Huh, I love mine.
So much so that I got the Ichiban brushes which are also excellent.
Pete Melvin wrote: These guys are the absolute worst. That summary that one of the backers has put up in blog is a monument to G&G's non stop lies.
Spoilered below:
Spoiler:
Nov 2014 - Kickstarter funds within 12 hours, promising to deliver the next generation of tabletop boards
24/12/2014 - Kickstarter successfully funded
22/01/2014 - Backers Kit locked down, no more addons can be selected
20/02/2014 - Battle Boards in molding process, on schedule to deliver May 2014
01/03/2014 - Still in mold making process, we are told that this is the longest process of the production and that the mass production process thereafter is quite fast. Told that some may even deliver earlier than the May 2014 deadline!
14/03/2014 - We are told that we will be given a battle board carrying box for free as a packaging solution. This will be a sturdy box with a plastic handle.
01/04/2014 - We are told that we are on target for May 2014 dispatch, Molds are nearly done and then mass production will be a few days. Painting will take place during April and all will be completed during this time.
01/05/2014 - Everything still on track for dispatch during May
16/05/2014 - Some severe flooding in the area of China the boards are being painted, according to news reports caused by poor drainage systems during monsoon season. Production is untouched, but 30% of the cardboard boxes are ruined and approx 20% of the boards themselves.
Estimated a 25 day delay as will need to be repainted.
26/05/2014 - Battle Boards getting back on track, We are told they are a week behind schedule on Urban War Battle Boards but that they will be dispatched in July
07/07/2014 - Battle Boards should be with you August / September
23/08/2014 - Battle Boards estimated shipping late September. Delivery time quoted as 4-12 days to the EU
08/10/2014 - Boards not dispatched yet. We are told they are trying to ensure they can ship them at a price which will ensure the kickstarter is kept in the black.
18/10/2014 - Boars almost ready for dispatch
04/11/2014 - Boards sent to Port in China. We're told once they're in the UK warehouse it'll take a week to repack and re-check, following which we will get a 1 day delivery from TNT.
05/12/2014 - Boards should be in the UK this week, then will need sorting and should dispatch January after Christmas holidays. "Even with possible port delays or customs delays it's still on it's way for us to get the gears rolling for Jan 2015 dispatch to your door"
19/12/2014 - Boards are at the UK Warehouse
17/01/2015 - Boards have ALL?!? been unpacked, quality checked, then packed back in their boxes. Should be completed early next week.
28/01/2015 - Dispatch estimate now of February 2015, hoping to make delivery 2-4 days instead of 5-25
09/02/2015 - Boards will be dispatched wc 20th February, new delivery date of Mid-Late March
09/03/2015 - Boards all dispatched, delivery is 5-25 days and everyone should have theirs by 15th April 2015
13/03/2015 - Exciting times, "all boards will be with you by or before April the 15th" Battleboard clips sent separately from China and should be here within 10-20 days.
01/04/2015 - Quote: "As per previous update please allow your Urban Wars to get to you by the 15th of April 2015. We understand there is a lot of excitement and frustration in getting your boards now but they are coming to you, all shipping is prepaid so they have to get to you by the deadline date at least. "
So it's now the 16th April, I've not received anything, neither has anyone who's posting on the Kickstarter comments, I have not had the clips either that apparently were sent separately from China.
Oh man, that's depressing!
This was an interesting comment posted yesterday:
Mark W 1 day ago
Hi all
I have just spent 30 minutes on the phone to Sam from Games and Gears. We had a good in depth conversation around communications, delivery issues and the state of play.
He confirmed to me that the first boards are on the way and that they are as disappointed as us around the delays and issues that we are all suffering. He confirmed that the postage plan as laid out by Alice is accurate and is still their target. He fully expects this all to be complete by Jun.
My main challenge to Sam was around the communications, transparency and drip feed of bad news. He took that well, and openly admitted that this is not his strong point (I know that most of you will say no sh1t at that point!). He has complete faith in his product and is adamant that once we start to receive it the bad perceptions will fall away. I have advised him that in the absence of clarity we have all thought the worst and therefore we have all pushed for more detail to satisfy ourselves that this is still a viable project. Where that detail has not been forthcoming things have snowballed into the situation we find ourselves today.
In response to my challenge he has promised to get pictures of all boards, painted and unpainted, in an update to us all. He has given an undertaken to take more of a grip on communications and start giving proper feedback and be more open. He confirmed that the boards have gone through the exhaustive QC process - this is due to his worries over defect rates and his inherent pride in his project. It is more his inability to produce a decent photo that has stopped any pictures rather than anything sinister, that and his view that a picture would not do them justice. I have advised him that the implied message in that is that he is not proud of his own product - which after speaking to him, I can promise you he comes across as a very proud manufacturer. He is going to be at Salute and we have arranged to meet up.
He has undertaken/promised to give us all a full and frank update, with pictures within 7 days. I ask you all to give him some room, time and slack to do so. I know some of you are not going to be happy with that, but he is feeling the pressure of the negative comments on here. He is not happy with what has happened and as I say he hoped that by having the product in our hands this malcontent would fall away.
I have long said this is more cock-up than conspiracy, and after speaking to Sam I am a lot more content that I will receive a set of quality products, just later than anyone had planned. Ultimately that is all that we want - we wanted them earlier of course, but the desired outcome is to play on these boards.
Of course, I have no empirical or hard evidence to back this up - just my gut feel from talking to someone who came over as proud in their product, frustrated in the current position and slightly out of his depth in terms of how to run a customer facing communication strategy and business.
I hope this helps my fellow backers and we all look back on this one day from a happy place
I actually got to meet and speak to Sam in-person at AdeptiCon. He was really nice, but I don't think that the lack of answers is due to Alice handling communications at all (as some commentors have said)... Sam was hard to pin down on answers even though he was really nice to talk to. I think the lack of transparency is really from the top down...
Obviously, they've missed so very many deadlines that it's hard to keep any faith. But, new pictures of all the board themes within 7 days (6 days now) would be most welcome. We'll see if they deliver any pictures at all... I said that to Sam in-person at AdeptiCon too.
But even there, where there were apparently 2 sets of DzC boards in use, no pictures were taken, and I couldn't take any due to manning my ModCube booth most of that day! I had specifically asked him to ship those 2 sets (which were intended to be my sets and I had promised to AdeptiCon to use for the DzC tourney). But somehow, I didn't get to keep these boards afterwards (they were sent to some other studio to take pictures of, he said) and I thus never even got to see them! I didn't really mind, since I flew and would have had to ship them home... but, it's just one of those things that is a bit of a pattern. They have repeatedly offered terrain instead when I pushed them to get the boards to AdeptiCon in-time to use, and Sam even offered me some brushes on the spot when saying he gave the boards to the studios... but I think what is getting missed, is folks just want the boards, not other things - and more than that, they just want straight answers. I think it's pretty obvious they did not ship as long ago as was stated, and without taking pictures, people really have no idea if the things even exist!
So, they need to work on being more honest and straightforward - this really isn't something to work on, either, just say when the boards really will ship, and take some pictures to prove it... drama over! I hope they have learned and will do this, but they really must change their pattern... it's getting a bit late in the day to save face here, but they could still do it with an about-face on communications, imo. Again, not blaming Alice - she's just doing her job - and Sam is a really nice guy, but the honesty needs to be considered paramount, not telling people what they want to hear (as eventually, they don't want to hear anything anymore).
I'd agree if boards had been shipped somebody would have got something...
and would have posted either in excitement or in frothing-gamer rage depending on what the quality was like even if they didn't do the full unboxing and photos route
no info means no boards arriving (so far)
I hope they didn't end up on some ultra bargain basement shipping service like I've used from china for scale model kits that chugged over very slowly by boat arriving about 8-9 months later (but postage was so cheap..)
So apparently we will get details of how much longer we have to wait on Weds. A full week after the final delivery date.
Who knows what we will be told then?
Personally I strongly suspect the boards have never been in the UK at all, and that someone made that up at some point to make it seem like there was progress, and no-one at G&G has ever dared to go back on that.
I cannot believe there is any shipping service in the UK that would take a great pile of big boxes on March 9th and fail to deliver any of them by 21st April. They would essentially just be warehousing the boxes.
Slinky wrote: So apparently we will get details of how much longer we have to wait on Weds. A full week after the final delivery date.
Who knows what we will be told then?
Personally I strongly suspect the boards have never been in the UK at all, and that someone made that up at some point to make it seem like there was progress, and no-one at G&G has ever dared to go back on that.
I cannot believe there is any shipping service in the UK that would take a great pile of big boxes on March 9th and fail to deliver any of them by 21st April. They would essentially just be warehousing the boxes.
Man, I hope that does not turn out to be the case... but if it is, I really hope they will just be honest about it. They really need to come clean about where they are at in fulfillment - I can take more delays if I can plan for them, what I can't take is being told every month that it's coming next month!
I had a look to see if that was a shill account. Looks like they've backed a variety of gaming KS both prior to and after the G&G fiasco. I suppose it still could be, but unlikely.
So one down and however many hundred to go. Suspicious that someone from Singapore got their first, almost as if the boards were coming from China all along....
Note the comment on one "As plain raw grey plastic as it gets."
Now back in February when they put out the photos, I asked:
Richard Davies on February 6
Are the grey areas (pavements/ sidewalks) painted or bare grey plastic? Visually disappointing vs the initial images shown. At least if they are painted grey they will be easy to weather and re-paint, but if it's bare plastic, it means masking off the roads to primer the rest.
Can this sort of picture be done for any of the other boards at this point? Would be nice to have an idea of the work I'll need to put into the Anima boards too - especially for boards coming to the UK after Salute (April) so I can stock up on any supplies needed.
and got the reply:
Creator Games & Gears on February 6
Can comfirm 100% the grey is painted grey .
To borrow a phrase that's doing the rounds about my local MP, Games and Gears are lying liars that tell lies. I'd still have bought this product if they'd have told the truth from the beginning, but after taking delivery of my boards, I'll go out of my way to ensure I don't spend another penny with G&G.
I'm pretty glad I dropped my pledge on this one before it ended. I would pretty upset if I though I had paid for painted tiles, waited as long as you all are, and then got that.
Just realised that we've gone from the original estimate of 5-25 working days (already extremely high for shipping from one UK address to another) to 42-48 working days.
CptJake wrote: Wow, the one tile is completely unpainted.
I'm pretty glad I dropped my pledge on this one before it ended. I would pretty upset if I though I had paid for painted tiles, waited as long as you all are, and then got that.
Err that was a big deal that backers were vocal about that not being painted because a lot of them wanted ponds/lakes/etc.
I remember that's specifically the reason I almost got it as a third board.
CptJake wrote: Wow, the one tile is completely unpainted.
I'm pretty glad I dropped my pledge on this one before it ended. I would pretty upset if I though I had paid for painted tiles, waited as long as you all are, and then got that.
Err that was a big deal that backers were vocal about that not being painted because a lot of them wanted ponds/lakes/etc.
I remember that's specifically the reason I almost got it as a third board.
Yeah, the park/grass/water/whatever area, but that only makes up a portion of that tile. Lots of pavement/walkways on that tile too, and they are bare.
It's been 7 days since the comment was posted that they would update with pictures of everything in 7 days, so I've asked about it in the comments. I would really love to get a clear, honest timeline so I can just forget about this for 3 - 4 months or whatever, and just know the DzC boards will arrive in July or August or whenever is realistic. Being strung along with "a few weeks after the urban boards" for months now, which themselves have just slipped at least another month, is just killing me :-/
You pay for cheapness with uncertainty and delay, keep that in mind and the delays aren't a problem.
I am in for two board sets, I will get them someday soon. Combining to G&G wont speed that up, in fact it will likely slow things down.
It doesn't help that I know Sam from G&G personally, and while he is a fun likeable guy getting him to stick to a deal is like playing Twister with eels.
If you want any meaningful results bypass him and ask to speak to the owner.
I'm not sure anyone paid for 'uncertainty and delay'. I would bet the feel they paid for the boards with an understanding they would be delivered a bit later than the KS estimate, but not that they would be lied to repeatedly and that the delays would stack up the way they have.
It is good to hear that even a friend of someone in the company admits that their fiend can't stick to a deal. What that is the likable guy, it says a lot about the company.
CptJake wrote: I'm not sure anyone paid for 'uncertainty and delay'. I would bet the feel they paid for the boards with an understanding they would be delivered a bit later than the KS estimate, but not that they would be lied to repeatedly and that the delays would stack up the way they have.
Thats the harsh reality of kickstarter some refuse to accept.
You are buying not only pre-order but at pre-production.
Any form of manufacturing has procedures and those procedures very often have unseen problems.
If you cant accept that stay away. The majority of projects are late, especially where large scale manufacturing is involved.
Crowdfunded projects are not retail sales, you have the same rights but should avoid making the same expectations. In return you get a cheap buy in.
No one will retail sell you 6x4 modular pre-painted boards for £60, you are buying the 'I am paying pre-production and must accept the stock purchased hasn't been made yet'. All too often reality gets in the way. I think you will get your boards, but stamping little feet and saying I want I want wont make production and distribution problems disappear. Sales are part of the magical world of online promises, production is part of reality. It doesn't take fraud or cheating for delays to stack, reality will do that.
So pay £60 for boards tomorrow, or £150 for boards today. You chose the cheap option, as did I. Accept the consequences with good grace and wait for your items.
I have just under £500 currently invested in Kickstarter and Lanzanos, all in gaming and I have no delivery date I can hold to for any of my projects and frankly I dont ask. All are with fairly decent companies, and all are formally delayed except Dungeon Saga, and eventual delays for that are expected because its Mantic. But I am not worried, I am in for some nice stuff and believe I will get it; and no I am not rich, the buy ins tied up most of my gaming funding for the last two years,
It is good to hear that even a friend of someone in the company admits that their fiend can't stick to a deal. What that is the likable guy, it says a lot about the company.
Sam is a unique case, and I would call him a friend per se, just someone I know personally. Though I do admit to liking him. He also thankfully isnt in control of G&G.
I have dealt with Sam in the past, and he honoured his deals, but it was a bit of work to get there.
My advice remains, deal with some else higher up the chain if you want any promises you can rely on.
Orlanth wrote: Thats the harsh reality of kickstarter some refuse to accept. You are buying not only pre-order but at pre-production. Any form of manufacturing has procedures and those procedures very often have unseen problems.
If you cant accept that stay away. The majority of projects are late, especially where large scale manufacturing is involved.
Crowdfunded projects are not retail sales, you have the same rights but should avoid making the same expectations. In return you get a cheap buy in.
As I've commented on a couple of projects, it's funny how OGRE being a year late used to be an extreme, something mocked and even scorned.
Now a couple years later it's the status quo and people are unrealistic/needy/entitled/etc for thinking otherwise.
If it's such common knowledge that production is difficult and full of delays, why is it on the backers to be doormats and accept that 'every' Kickstarter is massively delayed through acts of Dog that couldn't have been foreseen with modern technology?
As I've also expressed, I see it as a percentage based approach; need an extra 10/20% of ones time? No big deal. 300%? Looks like someone forgot to carry the one. A project like this that has an estimate of 5-6 months taking nearly a year and a half is a bit more than a mere 'oops', and while it's not a bad thing for the KS community to show patience and understanding, it doesn't do us any favours to quietly accept that projects will just deliver whenever they deliver.
So instead of mocking people who believed in the project/company, perhaps the companies (here and elsewhere) should start tacking a year onto their delivery estimates? Because apparently nobody on Earth is capable of estimating how long something takes to make.
Except Dwarven Forge. Those guys are 2 for 2 on delivering on time with multi-million dollar projects.
Anyway, I'm not a backer (though I nearly was), but I find it counterproductive to tell backers 'oh you should've known that their business plan was full of gak', somehow absolving the people who actually made the business plan in question.
While we're at it, let's glance at the KS campaign page!
Risks and challenges
We delivered our last project on time and have won awards from miniature painting competitions. We honored all our kickstarter backers. We have been quoted to have the best customer after service in the industry and we are dedicated to you who make our projects a reality. If not for everyone this project will not happen!
Delays will occur by: Act of God, Armageddon and forces beyond our control. Manufacturing delays can happen if there are any teething issues with the moulds. However we have negated most of this by spending one year in making these and insuring we have got everything ready and down to the wire to mitigate any issues. We are ready once funded to hit the mass production button. Any delays if at all will be down to customs in your home country and your local postal service based on our past kickstarter experience.
If there are delays during different waves it will be up to 10-20 days max based on past experience and again mainly due to customs. But this issue should be a non issue as we have a great forwarder and will deliver the goods to you.
Situations change.
But if someone is going to make reassurances of "10 to 20 days max", they'd better be able to back that up. Not being able to is on them, not the backers.
Creators need to embrace the variance, to estimate their target delivery date and then double it. They don't get to reassure the backers how confident and prepared and ready they are while the money is flowing in and then fall back to "omg this stuff is hard and taking so long and who could have possibly known?!"
CptJake wrote: I'm not sure anyone paid for 'uncertainty and delay'. I would bet the feel they paid for the boards with an understanding they would be delivered a bit later than the KS estimate, but not that they would be lied to repeatedly and that the delays would stack up the way they have.
Thats the harsh reality of kickstarter some refuse to accept.
You are buying not only pre-order but at pre-production.
Any form of manufacturing has procedures and those procedures very often have unseen problems.
If you cant accept that stay away. The majority of projects are late, especially where large scale manufacturing is involved.
Most people can accept that,but I've said it before and I'll say it again. No one should be willing to accept gak from any company, even if it is on KS. Stuff being a little late, fine. Life happens. But lying about it is beyond the pale. I'm not willing to accept that just letting them get away with constant lies is the productive thing to do here.
Also, this Sam sounds like an unreliable clownshoe. Perhaps he wasn't the best person to involve in a KS project with a (supposedly) defined timeline.
I also wish they would SHUT UP about the damn flood!
Why is the onus on backers to accept the "harsh realities" of kickstarter and not on the creators who put up nonsense pie in the sky based on wishes and dreams timelines in the first place?
Orlanth wrote: It doesn't help that I know Sam from G&G personally, and while he is a fun likeable guy getting him to stick to a deal is like playing Twister with eels.
If you want any meaningful results bypass him and ask to speak to the owner.
That's hilarious, I kind of felt the same way talking to him - really nice, but I just could not pin him down even though I talked to him with the express intent of doing so!
CptJake wrote: I'm not sure anyone paid for 'uncertainty and delay'. I would bet the feel they paid for the boards with an understanding they would be delivered a bit later than the KS estimate, but not that they would be lied to repeatedly and that the delays would stack up the way they have.
Thats the harsh reality of kickstarter some refuse to accept.
You are buying not only pre-order but at pre-production.
Any form of manufacturing has procedures and those procedures very often have unseen problems.
If you cant accept that stay away. The majority of projects are late, especially where large scale manufacturing is involved.
Crowdfunded projects are not retail sales, you have the same rights but should avoid making the same expectations. In return you get a cheap buy in.
No one will retail sell you 6x4 modular pre-painted boards for £60, you are buying the 'I am paying pre-production and must accept the stock purchased hasn't been made yet'. All too often reality gets in the way. I think you will get your boards, but stamping little feet and saying I want I want wont make production and distribution problems disappear. Sales are part of the magical world of online promises, production is part of reality. It doesn't take fraud or cheating for delays to stack, reality will do that.
So pay £60 for boards tomorrow, or £150 for boards today. You chose the cheap option, as did I. Accept the consequences with good grace and wait for your items.
I have just under £500 currently invested in Kickstarter and Lanzanos, all in gaming and I have no delivery date I can hold to for any of my projects and frankly I dont ask. All are with fairly decent companies, and all are formally delayed except Dungeon Saga, and eventual delays for that are expected because its Mantic. But I am not worried, I am in for some nice stuff and believe I will get it; and no I am not rich, the buy ins tied up most of my gaming funding for the last two years,
It is good to hear that even a friend of someone in the company admits that their fiend can't stick to a deal. What that is the likable guy, it says a lot about the company.
Sam is a unique case, and I would call him a friend per se, just someone I know personally. Though I do admit to liking him. He also thankfully isnt in control of G&G.
I have dealt with Sam in the past, and he honoured his deals, but it was a bit of work to get there.
My advice remains, deal with some else higher up the chain if you want any promises you can rely on.
The problem is not just that the project is late.
The problem is that they, the company as a whole, not just your friend, are LYING TO THEIR SUPPORTERS!
That is about as plain as I can make it.
They are one step (admittedly a large step) above Ice Age Mammals at this point, with nothing that they have said coming close to truth
I do believe that they intend to fulfill the pledges.
I do not believe that they are deliberately cheating or defrauding their patrons.
I do believe that they are lying through their teeth because it is expedient, rather than letting their patrons know some unpleasant truths.
In fairness Games & Gears have failed to learn the basixc truth about dealing with Chinese manufacturers.
The quick version of that advice is: dont.
A longer version is: set up and sign the deal, but take production schedules with a large bag of salt, and don't expect to get exactly what you paid for.
FanPro made th Battletech 25th Anniversary via chinese manufacturers, rther eventual product was just about ready for the 27tyh anniversary and had substandard plastic components, though asmittedly cheap.
Rackham went under as a business because they relied in Chionese made prepainted miniatures. People blacm e the shift of rules and other factors for the company's death, what really killed them was that Chinese manufacturers decided when Rackham could have stock, not Rackham. Rackham needed to sell boxsets to customers, Chinese manufactuers only cared about getting paid and delivering x thousand boxes, eventually, when they got around to it.
Only the largest companies and those who outcourse limited projects are safe dealing with China. So in th toy industry Disney gets its stuff on time every time, because its a massive contract and noone wants to mess with it. As does Games Workshop for different reasons. For all GW's ineptitude they know how, and when, to deal with China, say what they want, buy in quantities the Chinese wont mess with and are very specific about quality and timing.
PSC are smaller yet but do well because they work via Hong Kong and use the UK - Hong Kong connexion and have permanent offices there and thus get what they want when they need it by keeping comms clear and constantly open.
However....
So many crowdfunded projects rely on Chinese manufacturing the drive down costs, and on paper its a shortcut to profit. However there is a big BUT attached to that.
Backers are interested in the deal they signed up for, me included, and many expect to get it all to the letter, my excluded. Small companies importing custom goods from China so regularly have problems, some are ripped off by the manufacturers.
Games & ears l;ikely paid for tamping (plastic press printing) in multiple colours, and the manufacturer just decided to skip a few steps because they can get away with it. Ship the half painted goods and itsG&G's problem.
Should G&G come clean. Its too easy to just say yes. Backers have high expectations, many of them frankly unreasonable regarding the sourcing, but don't give any sdlack. Had G&G admitted that backers wont get exactly what they were promised they would get a lot of nerdrage rather than a little.
If G&G shouldered the blame they will end up with a crap rep. If G&G tried to blame the manufacturers the manufacturers will lose face. Anyone who knows anything about dealing with Chinese (or Indian) business knows that is a bad position if you want to do any further business.
So expect delays, expect G&G to look at half painted boards and start thinking about what to do. See them send weekly notifications with painting guides, as they did last week, a big hint frankly.
G&G shouldn't outsource manufacturing like this to China. Vietnam is a much better partner if you want the job done properly, but Vietnam all too often cant match the Chinese price, and for some stuff cant do the work at all or in the same timeframe due to lack of investment on the same scale.
I don't think G&G have lied to anyone, though all bets are off with Sam Sedghi. What they have done is got into hot water and tried damage control long enough to fix the problem as best they can.
I also believe G&G intend to fulfill the pledges
I do not believe that they are deliberately cheating or defrauding their patrons.
I do not believe that they are lying through their teeth, they are omitting facts because it is damaging to reveal the true cost of dealing with the Dragon. They are also not in any way in control of their delivery schedule, due to manufacturers whims, shipping company whims and finally UK and EU customs whims.
When dealing with crowdfunding projects look at what you are buying, make sure it is stupid cheap or manufactured in the West by an experienced company. Then expect a measure of failure and be happy when the degree of failure doesnt exceed your discount.
CptJake wrote: I'm not sure anyone paid for 'uncertainty and delay'. I would bet the feel they paid for the boards with an understanding they would be delivered a bit later than the KS estimate, but not that they would be lied to repeatedly and that the delays would stack up the way they have.
Thats the harsh reality of kickstarter some refuse to accept.
You are buying not only pre-order but at pre-production.
Any form of manufacturing has procedures and those procedures very often have unseen problems.
If you cant accept that stay away. The majority of projects are late, especially where large scale manufacturing is involved.
Crowdfunded projects are not retail sales, you have the same rights but should avoid making the same expectations. In return you get a cheap buy in.
Well, it's good to know that being a Kickstarter makes it okay to endlessly bs your backers/supporters. I think you might have a little too much Stockholm Syndrome/Kool-Aid given the way you're choosing to defend their fraudulent and dishonest behaviour.
My advice remains, deal with some else higher up the chain if you want any promises you can rely on.
Should G&G come clean. Its too easy to just say yes. Backers have high expectations, many of them frankly unreasonable regarding the sourcing, but don't give any sdlack. Had G&G admitted that backers wont get exactly what they were promised they would get a lot of nerdrage rather than a little.
If G&G shouldered the blame they will end up with a crap rep. If G&G tried to blame the manufacturers the manufacturers will lose face. Anyone who knows anything about dealing with Chinese (or Indian) business knows that is a bad position if you want to do any further business.
Their rep (such as it was) is pretty much gone. Their word is worth nothing, and their product will be half-baked and sub-par quality. SWM will eat their lunch if G&G ever makes it to retail.
I don't think G&G have lied to anyone, though all bets are off with Sam Sedghi. What they have done is got into hot water and tried damage control long enough to fix the problem as best they can.
I do not believe that they are lying through their teeth, they are omitting facts because it is damaging to reveal the true cost of dealing with the Dragon. They are also not in any way in control of their delivery schedule, due to manufacturers whims, shipping company whims and finally UK and EU customs whims.
They lie every update, in every KS comment they make, and have done so for a year.
If I tell you I've done the job you asked for and your product is in the post and none of this has happened, that's lying. It's not "damage control". It's flat-out directly lying to you. It's not spin or DC at this level, it's simply lying.
Well, it's good to know that being a Kickstarter makes it okay to endlessly bs your backers/supporters. I think you might have a little too much Stockholm Syndrome/Kool-Aid given the way you're choosing to defend their fraudulent and dishonest behaviour.
All I have done is seen the same pictures as you and decided NOT to nerdrage.
My advice remains, deal with some else higher up the chain if you want any promises you can rely on.
Name and contact details please?
Sorry I dont know that. I know that Sam's partner Rae founded the company as a vessel for selling art tools. However Rae has other business partners, and this info is very old. I have been out of direct contact with Sam Sedghi for coming up to ten years now, and don't know Rae.
Their rep (such as it was) is pretty much gone. Their word is worth nothing, and their product will be half-baked and sub-par quality. SWM will eat their lunch if G&G ever makes it to retail.
Ok, your angry I can see that.
First it isnt my fault.
Second I am in for two 6x4 so I am in the same position as you.
Not overly worried though.
I think it will hit retail. G&G are desperate to sell their boards retail as they offered everyone cheap pie in the KS and need to recover costs properly. They also know they cant retail until they have delivered to backers at least on an item by item basis.
I strongly suspect G&G underestimated their delivery costing, and had normal China syndrome and regret free shipping promises. Manufacturing was paid for, initial shipping was paid for on paper, but not with hard regards to hard reality.
They are also trying ship by cheapest means and that mean they are well down on the delivery priorities at every port and delivery hub.
We know the stock exists and is on its way. G&G cant do express delivery on the budget they got.
I do believe they need other spokespersons than Sam, and indeed they do from what I hear. If this project was just run by Sam Sedghi I wouldn't have bought in.
Hawk Urban boards are a good lead for retail sales and should sell well at £140 from stock. Once they stock them, G&G's sales problems will disappear.
Do we know that the stock exists in the necessary quantities?
One thing to bear in mind is that there is a difference between telling their patrons that a product will be late and telling them comforting lies.
The comforting lies constitute deliberate fraud.
I do not think that G&G is going to default on the product - but I do believe that they have been lying for the sake of expediency, rather than being honest with the folks that have supported their projects.
At this time, if G&G told me that the sun was going to rise in the east, I would look to the west to greet the dawn. (Though, more likely, G&G would tell me that the sun would rise at 11PM, then been delayed until midnight....)
You may like this Sam - but what he is doing is lying, plain and simple.
One thing to bear in mind is that there is a difference between telling their patrons that a product will be late and telling them comforting lies.
The comforting lies constitute deliberate fraud.
Well, are they comforting lies?
where is the evidence they have deliberately lied.
It would not be the first time a manufacturer promises delivery on one date and ends up being late.
G&G gave revised estimates along the way, and took the delivery dates they were given a little too literally. Thats was unwise and a common consequence of buying from China.
Deliberate fraud is a stretch.
I do not think that G&G is going to default on the product - but I do believe that they have been lying for the sake of expediency, rather than being honest with the folks that have supported their projects.
At this time, if G&G told me that the sun was going to rise in the east, I would look to the west to greet the dawn. (Though, more likely, G&G would tell me that the sun would rise at 11PM, then been delayed until midnight....)
Agaijn its all about delays. Companies much bigger than G&G have had ridiculous delays regarding stock from China. I gave some examples earlier.
Battletech 25th Anniversary
AT-43 both effectively destroyed by tardy delivery and switching goalposts from manufacturers.
You may like this Sam - but what he is doing is lying, plain and simple.
Sam didnt lie to me, he was evasive in other ways, and had I not been very persistent he would have been able to worm his way out of a deal.
I didnt let him do that. You see I knew him and how to handle him, we made a good deal from both ends and my eyes were open wider than he thought. I honoured my part and then made damn sure he honoured his, it came a bit of a shock to him.
I dont hate Sam, he is not a friend, but is likeable enough and we are friendly when we meet, though he is a bit wary of me now.
However AFAIK Sam is not in charge of G&G, he is just a very bad choice for PR. I can understand if him answering the phone and making promises is not helping the company. I have no problems believing that at all.
I still think that Sam aside G&G are getting the boards they paid for and will try and get them out to us. Deliberate fraud? On balance I beleive it is a lack of awareness of the consequences of Chinese outsourcing.
Was it Sam who made a nuisance of himself in the early days of the secret weapon boards campaign?
If so, tell him thanks, that person convinced me G&G were a company I would not support and as a result saved me quite the wait.
Joyboozer wrote: Was it Sam who made a nuisance of himself in the early days of the secret weapon boards campaign?
If so, tell him thanks, that person convinced me G&G were a company I would not support and as a result saved me quite the wait.
I dont know about this, tell me more.
Secret Weapon boards were selling very well at Salute.
Orlanth wrote: In fairness Games & Gears have failed to learn the basixc truth about dealing with Chinese manufacturers.
The quick version of that advice is: dont.
A longer version is: set up and sign the deal, but take production schedules with a large bag of salt, and don't expect to get exactly what you paid for.
FanPro made th Battletech 25th Anniversary via chinese manufacturers, rther eventual product was just about ready for the 27tyh anniversary and had substandard plastic components, though asmittedly cheap.
Rackham went under as a business because they relied in Chionese made prepainted miniatures. People blacm e the shift of rules and other factors for the company's death, what really killed them was that Chinese manufacturers decided when Rackham could have stock, not Rackham. Rackham needed to sell boxsets to customers, Chinese manufactuers only cared about getting paid and delivering x thousand boxes, eventually, when they got around to it.
Only the largest companies and those who outcourse limited projects are safe dealing with China. So in th toy industry Disney gets its stuff on time every time, because its a massive contract and noone wants to mess with it. As does Games Workshop for different reasons. For all GW's ineptitude they know how, and when, to deal with China, say what they want, buy in quantities the Chinese wont mess with and are very specific about quality and timing.
PSC are smaller yet but do well because they work via Hong Kong and use the UK - Hong Kong connexion and have permanent offices there and thus get what they want when they need it by keeping comms clear and constantly open.
Not a large company. I deal with China. The taiwanese and the HK people have been dealing with China for ages. I know several EU companies that aren't large but 4-5 stores that buy directly from china. Just because you have some hard-on against Chinese manufacturers doesn't mean they're all bad. (although yes, there are some very bad ones)
My clips just arrived from... Germany. So if they aren't lying what happened with all those posts about testing every clip on the boards they have in their UK warehouse? I mean just look at the December 19th update, 'Hawk Urban War battle boards, clips and trays, have arrive to the UK (EU backers) Warehouse.' So I'm expected to believe they decided to send all the clips to Germany in order to then post them back to the UK? As others have said delays are expected with kickstarter, not that those should be excused either, but outright lying to your backers is disgusting.
IIRC they told us they would be sending the clips to us direct from China and the ones in the UK warehouse would be used to fulfil the retail orders. That doesn't explain why the clips are arriving from Germany.
My clips arrived today - if G&G stick to the latest time lines they sent to me via PM the board could be here in as little as 2 weeks.
With everything that has happened so far I will not be holding my breath.
My advice remains, deal with some else higher up the chain if you want any promises you can rely on.
Name and contact details please?
Sorry I dont know that. I know that Sam's partner Rae founded the company as a vessel for selling art tools. However Rae has other business partners, and this info is very old. I have been out of direct contact with Sam Sedghi for coming up to ten years now, and don't know Rae.
So... your "advice" is pretty much a collection of meaningless words and almost on a par with trolling - not real advice for something that backers will actually be able to access since the KS reps aren't about to give you or us the contact details for their bosses,
Well done.
My advice remains, deal with some else higher up the chain if you want any promises you can rely on.
Name and contact details please?
Sorry I dont know that. I know that Sam's partner Rae founded the company as a vessel for selling art tools. However Rae has other business partners, and this info is very old. I have been out of direct contact with Sam Sedghi for coming up to ten years now, and don't know Rae.
So... your "advice" is pretty much a collection of meaningless words and almost on a par with trolling - not real advice for something that backers will actually be able to access since the KS reps aren't about to give you or us the contact details for their bosses,
Well done.
Don't get upset with me please. I don't work for G&G.
All I said was that I don't trust Sam Sedghi and would talk to someone else with regards to business. Fair advice given for fair reason.
I didn't say I knew who ran the company, who else you could talk to, or what car they drive, theior phone number ortheir favourite food. I don't know those things, and it is not my responsibility to find them out for you.
You could try asking to speak to someone else, if/when that doesn't work at least the alarm bells should be ringing correctly if nothing else.
Advice remains: deal with someone else if you can. This is echoed by a large number of gamers in my home town, some of whom are still angry at Sam for a variety of reasons, but all stemming from his frequent disregard for honest business. In fact since his name has reentered circulation because of G&G I heard more than a few angry words from surprising sources. He stung more people than I had realised, but their stories are not for me to say.
Some people have spoken to 'Alice' I don't know a thing about her, but as she is not-Sam Sedghi perhaps you should start there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maccwar wrote: IIRC they told us they would be sending the clips to us direct from China and the ones in the UK warehouse would be used to fulfil the retail orders. That doesn't explain why the clips are arriving from Germany.
My clips arrived today - if G&G stick to the latest time lines they sent to me via PM the board could be here in as little as 2 weeks.
With everything that has happened so far I will not be holding my breath.
Shipping from Germany makes sense.
Hamburg is a major shipping hub, if the clips came in a container that got off at Hamburg, they could be distributed straight from there.
One of the kickstarters running at the moment has preselected a number of hubs to ship from, there is a flat rate from the factory in China to be hub, then local shipping from the hub. The EU hub was Germany.
Makes sense, Germans are an organised bunch and have a well deserved rep for running stuff like this very efficiently, it's their way.
Interestingly when you search "Sam Sedghi games" on Google from the UK you get a little note at the bottom of the page which says "Some results may have been removed under data protection law in Europe.".
Can anyone from outside the EU spot any differences in the results Google returns?
I don't think it works that way. It's still one company and if he petitioned them to remove stuff due to the recent court ruling then they're supposed to remove the old/outdated (supposedly) information not just remove it from the EU.
Google does not remove the information, merely the links to the information (within the EU),
so somebody outside the EU using Google.com should still see any such links
however just because the statement is there does not mean results have been adjusted as Google says
'When you search for a name, you may see a notice that says that results may have been modified in accordance with data protection law in Europe. We’re showing this notice in Europe when a user searches for most names, not just pages that have been affected by a removal'
Don't get upset with me please. I don't work for G&G.
All I said was that I don't trust Sam Sedghi and would talk to someone else with regards to business. Fair advice given for fair reason.
I didn't say I knew who ran the company, who else you could talk to, or what car they drive, theior phone number ortheir favourite food. I don't know those things, and it is not my responsibility to find them out for you.
You could try asking to speak to someone else, if/when that doesn't work at least the alarm bells should be ringing correctly if nothing else.
Advice remains: deal with someone else if you can. This is echoed by a large number of gamers in my home town, some of whom are still angry at Sam for a variety of reasons, but all stemming from his frequent disregard for honest business. In fact since his name has reentered circulation because of G&G I heard more than a few angry words from surprising sources. He stung more people than I had realised, but their stories are not for me to say.
Some people have spoken to 'Alice' I don't know a thing about her, but as she is not-Sam Sedghi perhaps you should start there.
That's not my angry face, nor tone. It's the /facepalm one. I should point out that I haven't been angry at all in my posts to you here either. You've recently been aggressively defensive on their behalf to what I'd call an ...unusual and odd-feeling degree though, and that's not going to engender endearment. We're not the ones repeatedly lying to our backers, after all.
As for Sam, I don't know Sam Sedghi nor have I interacted him in any way to the best of my knowledge. I'd never even heard the name until you started mentioning it. I have conversed with Alice, and while she is pleasant enough, she essentially seems so be a CSR, and so there's little to no chance that she'll give up her bosses' names.
Your advice wasn't "speak to someone else if you can". It was this:
You pay for cheapness with uncertainty and delay, keep that in mind and the delays aren't a problem.
I am in for two board sets, I will get them someday soon. Combining to G&G wont speed that up, in fact it will likely slow things down.
It doesn't help that I know Sam from G&G personally, and while he is a fun likeable guy getting him to stick to a deal is like playing Twister with eels.
If you want any meaningful results bypass him and ask to speak to the owner.
Now of course, on being challenged you're basically admitting that there's no realistic way to do that, and changing it from "Talk to the owner." to "talk to Alice. Or anyone but Sam." Which is not even remotely the same thing.
So, you know. If you're going to get on an aggressively defensive high horse, please refrain from suggesting unrealistic options that obviously aren't on the table, because it only makes you look foolish, not the rest of us.
And I'm still not angry. I'm actually kinda amused. Will typical "internet rules" (Never apologise, nor admit wrongdoing, nor admit that you were wrong or incorrect, ever) apply here?
And I'm still not angry. I'm actually kinda amused. Will typical "internet rules" (Never apologise, nor admit wrongdoing, nor admit that you were wrong or incorrect, ever) apply here?
None of the above, I just don't like friendly, well meaning and politely spoken advice to be referred to as 'trolling'.
So... your "advice" is pretty much a collection of meaningless words and almost on a par with trolling - not real advice for something that backers will actually be able to access since the KS reps aren't about to give you or us the contact details for their bosses,
Well done.
I was surprised by the above frankly, it was not a nice thing to say, and unwarranted. So I vocally assumed you were venting anger at me, that at least is only a passing lapse and the least uncharitable reason for the above post.
. But yeah, that'd be nice of them, and is what I'm hoping for!
. Is it just me or has a whole swathe of comments vanished from their 
