And I'm still not angry. I'm actually kinda amused. Will typical "internet rules" (Never apologise, nor admit wrongdoing, nor admit that you were wrong or incorrect, ever) apply here?
None of the above, I just don't like friendly, well meaning and politely spoken advice to be referred to as 'trolling'.
So... your "advice" is pretty much a collection of meaningless words and almost on a par with trolling - not real advice for something that backers will actually be able to access since the KS reps aren't about to give you or us the contact details for their bosses,
Well done.
I was surprised by the above frankly, it was not a nice thing to say, and unwarranted. So I vocally assumed you were venting anger at me, that at least is only a passing lapse and the least uncharitable reason for the above post.
Point remains that G&G don't need nor deserve your unwarranted defence. Have been Lying to us for months as they shift the goalposts on what seems to be a weekly basis. Have provided endless misinformation, and your "talk to the owner" is a useless suggestion that's not actually possible. If you're offended, perhaps then you should have been less passive-aggressive and condescending when speaking to the disgruntled backers here. It's all on you, mate.
And I'm still not angry. I'm actually kinda amused. Will typical "internet rules" (Never apologise, nor admit wrongdoing, nor admit that you were wrong or incorrect, ever) apply here?
None of the above, I just don't like friendly, well meaning and politely spoken advice to be referred to as 'trolling'.
So... your "advice" is pretty much a collection of meaningless words and almost on a par with trolling - not real advice for something that backers will actually be able to access since the KS reps aren't about to give you or us the contact details for their bosses,
Well done.
I was surprised by the above frankly, it was not a nice thing to say, and unwarranted. So I vocally assumed you were venting anger at me, that at least is only a passing lapse and the least uncharitable reason for the above post.
Point remains that G&G don't need nor deserve your unwarranted defence. Have been Lying to us for months as they shift the goalposts on what seems to be a weekly basis. Have provided endless misinformation, and your "talk to the owner" is a useless suggestion that's not actually possible. If you're offended, perhaps then you should have been less passive-aggressive and condescending when speaking to the disgruntled backers here. It's all on you, mate.
Passive-aggressive? Nice to see that one trawled out. It's generally used as an excuse to get vocally aggressive with someone who wasn't vocally aggressive to you, but you don't like what they are saying.
Cut the excuses. Your hostile response was unwarranted and your pride is preventing you from admitting such.
I dont work for G&G and if I am more forgiving than you are on G&G thats no excuse for you to bite at me.
It is not mandatory for Dakka members to hate G&G, impatience isnt mandatory, a sinking feeling that backers wont get their boards isnt mandatory. Its a perfectly acceptable option to be upbeat about it, and probably mentally healthier. its not for you to say if the company 'need nor deserve' my comments. Cut the thought police crap please.
Not going to do estimates anymore. But will be with you in days
1000 days is still days.
Damien about 10 hours ago
Grand - oh and you didn't mention how many pre-orders you got, These updates were very interesting? Care to shout out the new number? I would like to make sure you guys are highly successful from this kickstarter and make plenty of money. You are still in the black right?
Thanks Damien, 287 pm requests from Backers, when pre-orders go live if everyone here commits and outside here we expect a sell out within weeks or months... which is amazing (that is on top of backers who have already pledged for one). We are fortunately still in the black... shipping has been a huge headache for Urban Wars... but glad it has been sorted and have learnt a lot. We have been very careful that shipping does not take us to the red and that we full-fill this KS 100% as planned
Hopefully you can tell we put a lot of effort into these products and a whole load more into them with the entire remake of them. So for us it is about getting you the best quality gaming battle boards and we have been really strict on the entire process. Possibly too strict as the success of the launch of these means the world to us. It's a huge labour of love and you and everyone here having great times on the these boards with happy smiles, will make all the huge upsets, troubles and issues on our side melt away.
Thanks Again
WHOOOOOSSSSH. The sarcasm plane roars overhead. At least she didnt mention...well, you know. It.
ieuan belcher about 1 hour ago
Should see some UK backers getting Hawk Wargames boards today - with any luck!
malfred wrote: So how do these kickstarter messes start?
Folks begin a project with little to no understanding of what they are actually in for, no solid business plan, no agreements from producers, and then start throwing more and more promises of product into the project in order to increase/sustain funding momentum. They make promises they have no idea how to keep. They go into the project without a clear understanding of what their real costs will be and how each stretch goal delivery will affect that cost. Sometimes they exacerbate that believing they can afford to take a certain loss delivering to backers to get their game/figures/widget into production, but then realize unless they have funding to cover that loss from another source they cannot actually deliver.
Throw in a bit of bad luck and/or greed in some cases and you can have quite the mess.
Successful gaming kickstarters are lucky if they have the 10% inspiriation down pat. After funding, the harsh reality of the 90% perspiration kicks in.
Orlanth wrote: It doesn't help that I know Sam from G&G personally, and while he is a fun likeable guy getting him to stick to a deal is like playing Twister with eels. If you want any meaningful results bypass him and ask to speak to the owner.
That's hilarious, I kind of felt the same way talking to him - really nice, but I just could not pin him down even though I talked to him with the express intent of doing so!
I don't have anything to add to the KS discussion, but I did walk by their table at Adepticon and drooled over their brushes. By Friday, the type of brush I was interested in was sold out, so I asked the guy about it. No idea who he was. He immediately went into his hard sell mode. I tried to steer him back to the brushes that he sold out of. "Do you have a website..." "Do you sell to any local stores..." "Where can I get this specific brush..."
He kept putting one of his other kits that he did have in stock. I put it down. He'd hand it or another one back to me. Also, he didn't answer any of my questions. Not one. I finally just said I had to go and left. My wife couldn't believe I put up with it for as long as I did. I'm not a patient man, and I HATE the hard sell. I have one of the brushes from the Adepicon Swag Bag, and I would certainly consider buying a replacement from their website.
But kick me in the head if I ever walk towards their table at an event again. It just left a bad taste in my mouth.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
malfred wrote: What would you say would have been kickstarters done right?
Reaper Bones I and II. I'm very happy with my gak.
Orlanth wrote: It doesn't help that I know Sam from G&G personally, and while he is a fun likeable guy getting him to stick to a deal is like playing Twister with eels.
If you want any meaningful results bypass him and ask to speak to the owner.
That's hilarious, I kind of felt the same way talking to him - really nice, but I just could not pin him down even though I talked to him with the express intent of doing so!
I don't have anything to add to the KS discussion, but I did walk by their table at Adepticon and drooled over their brushes. By Friday, the type of brush I was interested in was sold out, so I asked the guy about it. No idea who he was. He immediately went into his hard sell mode. I tried to steer him back to the brushes that he sold out of. "Do you have a website..." "Do you sell to any local stores..." "Where can I get this specific brush..."
He kept putting one of his other kits that he did have in stock. I put it down. He'd hand it or another one back to me. Also, he didn't answer any of my questions. Not one. I finally just said I had to go and left. My wife couldn't believe I put up with it for as long as I did. I'm not a patient man, and I HATE the hard sell. I have one of the brushes from the Adepicon Swag Bag, and I would certainly consider buying a replacement from their website.
But kick me in the head if I ever walk towards their table at an event again. It just left a bad taste in my mouth.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
malfred wrote: What would you say would have been kickstarters done right?
Reaper Bones I and II. I'm very happy with my gak.
And that is very fine gak indeed.
I was also very happy with the first Kings of War Kickstarter - but that was, in part, because of the happy panic that they were going through. (They had not expected to reach the first stretch goal... let along to hit it in a matter of days. And that first stretch goal was the only one that they had planned.)
malfred wrote: What would you say would have been kickstarters done right?
Reaper Bones I and II. I'm very happy with my gak.
And that is very fine gak indeed.
I was also very happy with the first Kings of War Kickstarter - but that was, in part, because of the happy panic that they were going through. (They had not expected to reach the first stretch goal... let along to hit it in a matter of days. And that first stretch goal was the only one that they had planned.)
I didn't back the first Kings of War KS, but Reaper certainly did a fine job handling their Kickstarters.
Another recommendation- I love the way that Sodapop is handling the two Kickstarters they did since moving to Ninja Division (Super Dungeon is part delivered, Ninja All Stars has a long way to go).
Communication is key here- Super Dungeon is late, but not late in Kickstarter terms, and the product that I've received is fantastic quality- but the biggest difference is that they're great at letting us know what's going on, and they update every week whether something has changed or not- we're never left wondering what's happening. They also clearly defined their terms, so we know exactly what "done" in any given category means, and they don't pretend that the game isn't going to spend time on a boat and in customs after production is finished.
Oh, and they outsourced the actual shipping, so it did not take months from "we've started delivering" to "we've delivered." That was a strong contrast from some less well handled kickstarters I've taken part in.
It seems to me that the boards have a "fantasy" life, in which they arrived in the UK in December, and a "real" life in which they were sent from China 2 weeks ago.
It's the only explanation that makes sense as to why no boards have been delivered in the EU when they have been here for 5 months.
Slinky wrote: It seems to me that the boards have a "fantasy" life, in which they arrived in the UK in December, and a "real" life in which they were sent from China 2 weeks ago.
As long at they have been dispatched from China and that part isn't just another plot twist. At them moment I'm doubting pretty much everything that Alice says.
By my count only 5 active backers have received their boards so far. (1 in Singapore, 1 in Japan and 3 in Australia). I might have missed an Aussie or two though.
Passive-aggressive? Nice to see that one trawled out. It's generally used as an excuse to get vocally aggressive with someone who wasn't vocally aggressive to you, but you don't like what they are saying.
Cut the excuses. Your hostile response was unwarranted and your pride is preventing you from admitting such.
I dont work for G&G and if I am more forgiving than you are on G&G thats no excuse for you to bite at me.
It is not mandatory for Dakka members to hate G&G, impatience isnt mandatory, a sinking feeling that backers wont get their boards isnt mandatory. Its a perfectly acceptable option to be upbeat about it, and probably mentally healthier. its not for you to say if the company 'need nor deserve' my comments. Cut the thought police crap please.
Yeah... no. You don't get to confuse or misdirect the issue here.
You're the one who rejoined this thread seemingly only in order to tell people who were sick of being lied to that they're doing it wrong, that their endless Force Majure lies and so forth should pretty much just be accepted/ignored and we're doing it wrong.
Along with "I don't think they've lied to us". Wow. All I can say, you better stay away from bridges, since they've done nothing but lie to us in the last several months with regard to the boards. So you're either an apologist for them, or.. how can I put this delicately? Well, apparently you believe that everything that they have told us is the truth. Let's look at your own words:
I don't think G&G have lied to anyone, though all bets are off with Sam Sedghi. What they have done is got into hot water and tried damage control long enough to fix the problem as best they can.
I do not believe that they are lying through their teeth, they are omitting facts because it is damaging to reveal the true cost of dealing with the Dragon. They are also not in any way in control of their delivery schedule, due to manufacturers whims, shipping company whims and finally UK and EU customs whims.
Hm. this seems very credible.
There is also this gem that you just tried to dodge again, of course:
All I said was that I don't trust Sam Sedghi and would talk to someone else with regards to business. Fair advice given for fair reason.
I didn't say I knew who ran the company, who else you could talk to, or what car they drive, theior phone number ortheir favourite food. I don't know those things, and it is not my responsibility to find them out for you.
You could try asking to speak to someone else, if/when that doesn't work at least the alarm bells should be ringing correctly if nothing else.
Advice remains: deal with someone else if you can.
Yeah, nothing passive-aggressive there.
I think when you talk about not being able to swallow pride, you're surely talking about yourself. You've certainly got no idea what "my pride" is allowing or disallowing me to do. I think you've come into this thread in a failed attempt to defend G&G, and in doing so you have behaved insultingly and condescendingly towards the people discussing them in a manner that you would not do if it were an in-person discussion. Of course, being the internet, you can act more aggressively than you would, and don't need to stop and consider your behaviours since there aren't really any consequences.
You're the one who rejoined this thread seemingly only in order to tell people who were sick of being lied to that they're doing it wrong, that their endless Force Majure lies and so forth should pretty much just be accepted/ignored and we're doing it wrong.
Actually I was offering some hope and an appeal for patience. I am concerned about the delay too, and have invested in two boards. But I know foaming at the mouth wont solve anything, so I take it in my stride and find ways to chase up the problem logically. Sharing information with other backers is a logical way forward, it was for instance good to know that some people have their boards, even if they are all in the West Pacific region. One was helpful enough to inform us that one board was missing, so that is another issue to look out for.
One of the best ways to help is to share information on how best to complain about this project. Its useful therefore to know who to complain to, sadly I don't have that information, but I do know who not to complain to if you want an answer you can rely on, and shared rthat information with the backer community on Dakka. Some saw this for what it was, others can't.
You see if people are patient they can wait and handle delays.
If people aren't patient their impatience can overrule their better judgement and they get angry, at random, for no reason, and lash out against those in their path.
As demonstrated:
You're the one who decided to step in and self-righteously and passive-aggressively tell the rest of us who were sick of endless G&G lies and bs that "it comes when it comes" and "if you can't accept it, stay away" - as if those are any answer to their endless lies.
And all you can do about is troll? Surely there is another way.
I dont work for G&G, your misdirected anger is due to your inability to handle disappointment, and that leads to a need to lash out at anyone in the way.
Please grow up.
I think when you talk about not being able to swallow pride, you're surely talking about yourself. You've certainly got no idea what "my pride" is allowing or disallowing me to do. I think you've come into this thread in a failed attempt to defend G&G, and in doing so you have behaved insultingly and condescendingly towards the people discussing them in a manner that you would not do if it were an in-person discussion. Of course, being the internet, you can act more aggressively than you would, and don't need to stop and consider your behaviours since there aren't really any consequences.
I am actually quite surprised at the level of trolling I am receiving from you right now, because in doing so you are quoting quite reasonable comments with vehemence.
Please notice that no one else is behaving the same way, yet somehow I have shot your dog.
Yet I am not curious enough to want to find out more, it doesn't really matter.
Either backers will be patient for their stuff, or they wont, those who want to contact Games & Gears can accept or ignore the well intentioned advice not to deal with Sam Sedgi in lieu of other contacts with a less chequered merchant history, and if it doesn't come we have recourse back to Kickstarter. Simple rally, and nothing to get rabid over, at least not to me.
Either backers will be patient for their stuff, or they wont, those who want to contact Games & Gears can accept or ignore the well intentioned advice not to deal with Sam Sedgi in lieu of other contacts with a less chequered merchant history, and if it doesn't come we have recourse back to Kickstarter.
Okay, this point has been made enough times, and responded to - both sides please let it drop if there is nothing new to add.
malfred wrote: What would you say would have been kickstarters done right?
Dwarven Forge has run 3 highly successful campaigns and has delivered on time for both the first and second (the third isn't due until early next year).
Been so busy with the new job not been keeping up to date with anything, soon as I saw that quote I assumed it was a joke and had to go check. So sorry if I'm late to the party but seriously, how do they think that looks to customers coming from a business. Heads would roll saying something like that to customers at any establishment I've ever been a part of.
Yeah,
Quick update to say one of my two city boards arrived today...
No idea why only one.
Pretty good, feels cheaper and lighter than GWs.
Pretty good detail.
No grey paint, kinda brown grey plastic.
Roads are sprayed on and then white lines sprayed... Very basic.
Should be able to paint up and weather super quick.
Wish they just sold unpainted and cheaper!
Panic wrote: Yeah,
Quick update to say one of my two city boards arrived today...
No idea why only one.
Pretty good, feels cheaper and lighter than GWs.
Pretty good detail.
No grey paint, kinda brown grey plastic.
Roads are sprayed on and then white lines sprayed... Very basic.
Should be able to paint up and weather super quick.
Wish they just sold unpainted and cheaper!
1/4 ... Still waiting on 3 boards.
Panic...
Panic,
Good news! Quick questions if you don't mind.
How is the clip assembly and table hangover? Easier to put together than the RoB? Also, does it need a proper 6x4 table underneath or does the board support its own weight pretty well for a smaller table.
Thanks in advance. Hopefully we start seeing them state side soon...Did they ship them from China all along then?
The clips are pretty sturdy. Having to assemble the board face down and then flip it over for play is very cumbersome and a bit nerve wracking but seemed to work okay.
The boards cope well with the 6" overhang on each of the long edges of my table - better than the GWRoB. The clips don't ping off every time someone leans of the board.
The grey areas are smoother than I had expected and my terrain moves around at the slightest touch. Once the release agent is removed and I have a layer of paint on there hopefully the surface will be a bit more grippy.
Did you scratch the bottom underside to see if it is just mono-colored plastic or actually painted like it was supposed to be on the stone/cement parts? The roads are obviously painted but it sure does look like the rest is just plastic. In any case, congrats on finally getting it. That is the one I considered but got gunshy when it came to confirming my pledge.
It's definitely not painted - I and everyone else who has received their boards has confirmed that now, despite all G&G's protestations to the contrary.
Slinky wrote: It's definitely not painted - I and everyone else who has received their boards has confirmed that now, despite all G&G's protestations to the contrary.
Yep, there is no paint other than on the roads. There's a quote over on the KS campaign from Alice admitting that the plastic has been coloured grey but they are not painted but I think it was from a PM so there is no way of verifying it. Either way there certainly aren't the two coats of grey paint that Alice told us there were in the comments a few weeks ago. I'm not sure whether the confusion is due to a language issue, a miscommunication internally within G&G or a change of production methods.
Either way, when I placed my pledge I hadn't actually realised that the boards would come painted so I'm not too fussed about it. It would of course have saved the having to prime them if they have been entirely painted but I guess I can live with that.
The clips are pretty sturdy. Having to assemble the board face down and then flip it over for play is very cumbersome and a bit nerve wracking but seemed to work okay.
The boards cope well with the 6" overhang on each of the long edges of my table - better than the GWRoB. The clips don't ping off every time someone leans of the board.
The grey areas are smoother than I had expected and my terrain moves around at the slightest touch. Once the release agent is removed and I have a layer of paint on there hopefully the surface will be a bit more grippy.
While it definitely is annoying about the lack of paint, I'm more disappointed about the lack of a carrying case. I was going to sell my RoB, but may just keep it for the case now!
A few questions if you don't mind.
You say a 6" overhang is safe, but think it could work for a foot overhang on a 4x4 table? To the clips, can you actually get it to flip without it coming apart? I've read a 4x4 is doable with one person, but a 6x4 needs two and sometimes it comes apart.
Also, would you mind confirming how thick the tiles are? Thanks in advance!
Bring lazy so I'll just copy my kickstarter comment:
I did indeed schedule my delivery to arrive to my conservatory, fortunately it has a separate locked door to the house so I just left it open all day, also fortunately it's very much a 'you could leave your door open' kind of area.
Initial thoughts having just popped it together quickly, painting is poor at best, the lines haven't been masked properly on the roads which means there's edge bleeding on a lot of them. Also the paint clearly hasn't been applied evenly as some lines are pretty see through while others are solid blocks of white.
Also the tiles don't fit together particularly well as the 'garden section' tile has a noticeable difference in edge distance to the tile next to it.
Not terrible for the KS price but anyone paying the full whack for these is out of their minds.
The clips are pretty sturdy. Having to assemble the board face down and then flip it over for play is very cumbersome and a bit nerve wracking but seemed to work okay.
The boards cope well with the 6" overhang on each of the long edges of my table - better than the GWRoB. The clips don't ping off every time someone leans of the board.
The grey areas are smoother than I had expected and my terrain moves around at the slightest touch. Once the release agent is removed and I have a layer of paint on there hopefully the surface will be a bit more grippy.
Nice to see the boards arriving for UK backers. I didn't buy the 28mm set, and now wish I had. Those are good.
Anyway, G&G say the Anime boards are next, then the Anima and Dropzone commander boards afterwards. Those are the ones I bought.
Good things come to those who wait.
Anyone else have problems with photobucket? While typing this the photobucket are still trying to load up, and the dropbox ones have all been seen.
Except for the lack of paint
And the dude whose box of boards was left outside in the rain by the postal company
And the dude whose boards turned up twisted and melted.
RiTides wrote: I thought Dropzone Commander boards were next? I was almost sure of this...
PsychoticStorm, someone posted the same thing above!
Aren't the dzc boards the ones being shown as received in the UK? They match the card stock tiles in the cityscape set almost exactly... you know...except for the missing cement colors and shading.
Disregard my previous request. I was surprised by its arrival today - East Coast US!
As someone who owns the RoB and comparing it directly, it is better, but still has some issues.
Obviously price at the KS is a massive advantage and I'm thankful that mine does not come with any major defects, the roads are painted pretty clean, and I don't have much of the plastic finish others have talked about. The overhang also works really nice, with even a 12in overhang not nearly as shaky as an RoB at just a few inches.
On the other hand, it is not nearly as easy to flip the thing over as advertised. It can be a dangerous one person job if you have no disregard for your table and pull/flip it long ways, but even with two people, it feels like it is going to break apart at any moment. I found flipping it long ways is better as you can support both clip points. Although compared to the RoB, assembly is easier, but different as you have to flip it. It is impossible to assemble upwards. As an aside, I had not put my RoB together for a while and I still cannot believe how little R&D GW did for the assembly process. The clips, sparseness of placement, and board flimsiness are terrible.
For me personally though, I don't care about the lack of paint (even though the advertising was deceitful) but I am really bemoaning the lack of any kind of carrying/storage case. For anyone interested, these boards fill about 8/10 of a GW case, so the boards would fumble around a bit.
If anything, this has just convinced me that a proper 6x4+ table is a necessity to not have to worry about the assembly or overhang problems of all boards on the market. Still one balance point no one can seem to get right.
Not a bad board at all, but the Anime and Anima look to have a more finished looked. These would be solid alternatives for a RoB (which is apparently increasing) at retail, but G&G has to get a carrying case and come straight on the whole painted advertising fiasco for the Hawks.
Lastly, if anyone has a Hellscape and would like to swap for a Hawk Board - PM me. Alternatively, I will sell the HAWK at KS price. Let's talk about shipping though.
The lack of full pain tjob is regretable, but I rthink G&G put that in the brief.
But what are they to do, they pay, the boards get made, they aren't what G&G asked fro and the factory then smiles and doesn't listen.
This is a common factor of dealing with the dragon.
G&G didn't make the boards, they hired a factory to do it for them, so when the factory cuts corners there isn't much G&G can do about it.
They are being shipped, thats the main thing.
Reese - I wouldn't do any swaps until we see what the production Hellscape looks like, same factory, same cut corners.
Orlanth wrote: The lack of full pain tjob is regretable, but I rthink G&G put that in the brief.
But what are they to do, they pay, the boards get made, they aren't what G&G asked fro and the factory then smiles and doesn't listen.
This is a common factor of dealing with the dragon.
G&G didn't make the boards, they hired a factory to do it for them, so when the factory cuts corners there isn't much G&G can do about it.
They are being shipped, thats the main thing.
.
I've been following this peripherally since I chickened out on pledging for the DZC board but from what I've read in THIS thread a large reason for the resentment present is because they have NOT been honest about it. A few pages back there were posts with links about them telling folks effectively to STFU when they were simply noticing that the boards weren't painted as promised. They stuck (likely for legal reasons) to their story about it being as advertised/planned. If I missed something in the meantime (and, no, posting painting guides is NOT the same thing as admitting they weren't painted on the cement areas in the first place), feel free to post a link as I'm interested in reading it. I haven't ruled out getting one of these at retail if it is offered but I'm certainly not buying it ever without seeing it in person.
I can see how this is a disappointment to some, but taking the boards we see so far, the stuff we really needed done, the road lines ans surfacing are done. Its a simple job of artists tape over the roads, spray the paving area and then inkwash a dirt between paving slabs.
Most of us were going to repaint anyway, factory paint jobs are not the same as what we can do ourselves. If the roads were unmasked that would suck, but I think its ok.
And allowing fpr the price bloody excellent.
That is the real problem they quoted backers a price which was approx 60% off retail, with free shipping, most backing discounts are a third off or something, a lot even less.
Corners were cut in production and G&G fell into their trap of an unrealistic promise.
People get angry and one of their frontmen has a history of gross unreliability. So it compounds.
As it happens the boards were being made and someone in G&G intended to deliver,. so I let is all wash over.
Backers are in for a good deal, but good deals often have a price of 'bumpy ride' attached. If you get plastic boards very similar in ways to Realms of Skulls for £60 with no p+p should expect the producer to go the cheap way through problems. I think the discount is worth the hassle, and knowing that means, no hassle, so I am up for a bargain. I do hope others are also.
We pledged for the Dropzone Commander boards intending to use them for a tournament... we've now missed 3 such tournaments and the next one late this summer looks to get missed as well =/
I can't think of a Kickstarter I've been more disappointed with, and it is the lack of honesty and transparency that has done that.
Being however late (a year, year and a half?) is one thing... stringing along your backers by saying they're shipping each month when they're not is quite another. I can't believe a word they say anymore, which is a terrible position for a company to voluntarily put themselves in when the alternative would be very simple (an honest "We're looking at 4 months until the next theme begins to get delivered, and 6 months for the one after that, etc").
Oh come off it Orlanth, you must have some involvement in this company or project. Putting a positive spin on every single clusterfeth that comes out of this mess is ridiculous.
Its late
They lied ( a LOT)
Product not as advertised
Pete Melvin wrote: Oh come off it Orlanth, you must have some involvement in this company or project. Putting a positive spin on every single clusterfeth that comes out of this mess is ridiculous.
Its late
They lied ( a LOT)
Product not as advertised
Spin that.
I have one connection to the company, that solely of a customer who bought two boards during the pledge campaign. I knew of one staff member, haven't seen him in passing for eight years, and haven't seen him regularly for well over ten years.
As for the lateness and quality, they outsourced to China, and lowballed expenditure. This is what happens, G&G are not alone in this error. Ask Catalyst, ask Rackham, or more accurately ex-Rackham because Rackham went bust this way. PSC is doing well, because they handle things differently. There is a right way and a wrong way to outsource to China, and the differences are enormous.
Frankly there is room for positivity about this. I am a glass half full kind of guy, it's healthier when waiting for something to keep an optimism. This is why I never joined the angst crowd even in th darkest times. Now boards are actually arriving the main threat, non delivery, is receding. Buck up, I think you will end up happier when you have got them, and cap tap into that now.
Pete Melvin wrote: Look at the chevrons on the latest board pictures in the latest update and try to be half full.
No words.
Spoiler:
Six words: What the Hell is that crap?
Good lords, something like that could have been masked, with the mask made by a computer running Paint - there is no excuse.
The Auld Grump
Is that hazard striping or tiger striping? I wouldn't criticize that if a fan did that on their own as I'd likely accomplish the same with a brush and a ruler at home but to get that level of unevenness from a professional factory made/applied process? I guess we know what the KS creator has been frantically doing for months since he started posting that he got the boards for QA testing. I'm glad I skipped out on this. The company was trying to work something out with palladium for robotech during that KS and I'm glad that they didn't end up collaborating. I'm having enough trouble with that one as is without throwing in this mess on top of it. KS is definitely out of the hobby honeymoon period for me.
Pete Melvin wrote: Look at the chevrons on the latest board pictures in the latest update and try to be half full.
No words.
And to compare that to The quality advertised during the campaign -
G&G are now claiming that the bases are painted as they colour the plastic and that this is what they always promised despite claiming they had a special 2 layer spray paint technique for the base coat which they couldn't share as it was so secret.
Well, I missed the Kickstarter and the apparent gak storm that's gone down since then, I'd never even heard of the company until I was looking for an alternative to the GW board. As I play infinity I wanted a cityscape board that wasn't covered in loads of skulls and crap. I figured for £140 the Games and Gears ones looked quite good and as they were cheaper than the GW stuff I ordered one a bit ago. Then I stumbled on this thread and began to get worried!
Anyway, my board arrived today and I'm perfectly happy with it. The painting on the roads is basic but it does the job and I'll probably just have to put a brown/black wash on the rest and it'll be good to go. One niggle is the fact that the clips are sent in a different delivery, from China. Seems a bit daft to me that I'll have to wait for them to turn up from a different country!
But yeah, the paintjob on those Anime style boards is awful. The white lines on my cityscape one have obviously been applied with a stencil and spray so for the sake of the guys who have bought one of those then I hope they end up being stencilled too!
So I didn't back the Kickstarter, but I did preorder a board (DZC) off the website about a month after the KS ended. Was hoping to have it for my big game at Historicon 2014 (obviously didn't), and it doesn't look like I'll have it for Historicon 2015 either...
Anyway, my understanding is that they've ceased KS updates and are going with a direct email newsletter for updates? Is that true? If so, would anyone mind reposting them here so I can stay in the loop?
From me to Hawk Wargames, makers of Drop Zone Commander:
Hi Hawk,
I am one of the backers of the Games & Gears Battle Boards Kickstarter, in my case I pledged for a Drop Zone Commander board. These boards are not turning out the way we backers expected, and that is putting it mildly. The boards are mostly plain plastic instead of 100% base painted, and where there is paint applied it is so incredibly amateurishly done that it is embarrassing.
Games & Gears is legitimizing their boards by saying that you, Hawk Wargames, have approved the final version of these boards. I find that somewhat surprising, on account that your own products are of an extremely high quality and anything but amateurish, but Games & Gears insists that you are involved, and perhaps, by association, even somewhat responsible for the inferior product they are delivering.
Can you please confirm that you have indeed approved of these boards?
And got this reply:
Dear Robert
Firstly, please accept my apologies for the delay in getting back to you. It is sad to hear what you have said.
Firstly, there is a huge delay with the boards, as is obvious, but we have had nothing to do with the manufacture of these, we only licensed the use of our road layout so that these could be used on the boards.
Secondly, we have never seen a final production version of these boards - only the prototypes, which we were told were much inferior to what the final boards would be like - and therefore have not signed off any final version of the boards... (Whether it is in fact our right to do so or not is another question maybe). We certainly aim to always produce great quality products ourselves, and it would be really bad to hear that something has been produced with our name on it that does not meet these high standards that we set for our products.
This is something we will be looking into in depth to see what the status is of this situation, and why inferior product is being sent out. I must make the point though, that apart from the design of the boards, we have not been involved with any part of production or been involved in any of the decision making over this. Maybe we should have had a tighter control over this, however we felt, like many others who invested in this project through Kickstarter, that Games and Gears would be able to deliver a good quality product.
I will personally look into this as we are still waiting to receive any boards too - It would have been great to see final product before the backers to ensure that the quality was good enough.
To be clear, the only thing we have approved is the original design of the boards in terms of the road layouts.
Many thanks for your email, and apologies for the delay in replying. I hope we can bring about a good resolution to this for you, and for everyone else involved.
You fethed up G&G, why cant you just admit it? And youve been caught out in lie after lie, and this latest one is a doozy. Youve even taken the classic KS feth up route of only communicating "off project". The damage they have done to their reputation is probably irreparable.
Not looked at this thread for weeks, but then someone mentioned my name.....
So I turn up, ominous timing eh what.
I bought the Anime boards (I wished they were better less confusingly named). Disappointed with the danger stripes, they will need a redo.
If the DZC boards are the same quality as the Hawk 28mm boards I will be happy enough. The roads were done ok on those, it just needed a spray coat and inking on the pavement sections.
Its simple enough work to repair, its still worth the cost IMHO.
Wouldn't pay retail prices for that 'quality' though, but £60 was a good price.
Again what G&G asked for and what the factory in China bothered to give them are two different things. They don't care and can't be held accountable by minnow companies.
Hell no, they are third rate customers to a large plastics combine in Shanghai that does a zillion plastic manufacturing jobs of which this one barely registers.
G&G are so small they barely appear beyond their letterhead, the contract will be taken, the money taken then a half arsed job done. After that its G&G's problem.
This is very common when dealing with China as a small client business. You are their bitch. In the gaming industry this slapped about Catalyst and caused Rackham to go bankrupt, both considerably larger than G&G. Games Workshop does some outsourcing to China, but in this unlike other things they are professional. They have enough clout to be clear and careful what they want and when they want it, an as a result get what they pay for. Space Hulk was made in China, it arrived on time and on budget. Games Workshop only does one offs though, and the manufacturers know better than to soil future dealings.
Games Workshop also prints its books in China, but printing is different, its on standard format. If one press messed GW around they would take the image files of the White Dwarf to another press it requires no special tolling of any kind, so its safe. GW does not however outsource regular production of any other kind to China. Despite GW's frequent well deserved rep for incompetence, this is one area where they have had their eyes wide open.
Plastic Soldier Company also works with China successfully, some of the companies management are here on Dakka. As far as I know, PSC works via Hong Kong only and has permanent offices out there, I have a hunch they are there for the purpose of frequent oversight so make sure PSC gets what it pays for and with good stock numbers. Even so PSC is not in real control of its release schedule, but is in control of enough of the production that this isn't alarming to them. It looks to me that PSC work with the problem, rather than deny the problem exists, and as a result makes successful business.
Nothing at all is G&G's fault, which includes not only what the renegade Chinese Factory does, but also everything that they say and tell us. How can possibly they be held accountable for their own words? That's ridonkulous!
Wait, what's this about Hawk Wargames DZC board? From my understanding the DZC board hasn't shipped.
In other news I've managed to buy two sets of the 28mm modern urban boards from other KS backers (I pledged for Anime and Anima, but not the city boards) and I'm super happy with 'em. One will be converted shortly to a post-apocalyptic Los Angeles for Terminator...
Go compaaaarrrreeee/go compaaaarrree/when your boards got flooooooded/just lie and fluuuuuub it/ Games and Gears/your boards dont match/so Go Compaaaaaarrrrrreeee
There is no way those boards are the same. I mean I suppose it could be the lighting, but the top boards looks to have a lot more colour to it.
Earlier pictures show this as well:
I think people may be dissapointed once more.
Alan McKenzie on February 7
Is this the same paintjob that will feature on the Anima boards that ks backers receive?
I actually like this one much better, and I think it's the newer one?
Still, this is the campaign I've been most disappointed with out of 160 I've backed =/. Still hoping they'll delivery in the fall for DzC, though, and I think the boards are a great fit for it...
I actually haven't been a part of any failed projects yet! Although some are struggling a bit, they're all chugging along... I've found that reaching out to a creator and offering to chip in towards shipping or the like can really help get things resolved if there are issues (especially since many campaigns end up underestimating costs a bit).
I really value creators who are honest and share their process / journey... I feel this campaign has been unfortunately opaque and also quite dishonest at times, so that's why it's been a tough one to remain supportive of (and I talked two friends into it, too).
Here's hoping the outcome is good, but the journey is a large part of Kickstarters and this one just wasn't a good process...
I wanted to update that I decided by the time I get these, I probably will not have a use for them, so I asked G&G for a refund of my 2 set early bird pledge, minus KS fees.
They promptly replied to my PM (as they always have) and issued the refund that same week to my Paypal.
All the best to those who are still waiting, and at least you know that if you would like a refund they readily provide them (minus the fees of course) unless it's gotten close to the point of shipping that board theme.
RiTides wrote: ... They promptly replied to my PM (as they always have) and issued the refund that same week to my Paypal..
Seems they don't know your standing in the community and missed opertunity to keep you sweet.
Hell if they sent you a any of the boards that were ready for free and requested you hang on I'm sure they could possibly have their product appearing in your future videos and photos.
Gotta show those dice on some sore of table right?
They don't look bad painted up, I guess I just don't get their appeal. If I wanted something that flat, I'd just get a mat that's easier to store/transport and requires no painting. I backed the secret weapons boards because of the raised detail, so these just kind of fall in the gap of not doing either role well.
Well firstly they only were they half the price of the tablescapes boards (at kickstarter rates) but the real reason I backed this one is that they are 2x2 boards which means I can use the full 6x4 layout on my 6x3 table. The 6" overhang on each long edge is no problem with these boards and I suspected it might be with the tablescape boards.
There's probably more relief of the G&G boards than you can easily see from those photos. Yes I've added etched brass for manhole covers etc which were sculpted on the tablescape tiles but otherwise the detail isn't bad.
Of course we have yet to see if G&G can actually fulfil the rest of the board styles in their KS.
Panic, they've been really communicative with me and I am happy that they so quickly refunded me. No hard feelings here, and I do think the boards are a great value, I just won't have use for them personally at this point.
I did talk two friends into backing and I believe they are hanging tight, so we may still be able to take some pics with the DzC boards... I think they're guessing September delivery for DzC now, but that sounds somewhat optimistic given the time it took to get the Hawk Wargames 28mm boards delivered.
I have no hard feelings either; I received my refund within a week of asking, and the boards ARE nice once properly painted (Maccwar's is a perfect example). Whether they are £140 nice at retail is another question, that only time will tell.
All that said, I'll be avoiding G&G products in the future. I just don't like the way they've messed backers about, with repeated missed dates, cringeworthy excuses, and at times, seemingly, outright lies. The lack of primer on 'prepainted' boards was the last straw for me.
I had a chance to talk to Sam (I think?) at GenCon. There booth was actually pretty busy whenever I walked by selling the brushes.
Pretty much just the same excuses. He even showed me a video on his phone of I guess the factory workers painting in a flooded factory. Like, wearing those rubber waiters fly-fisherman use, and painting in waist high water. I'm not sure whether to be amused or sad about that.
He kept saying that my DZC board would ship next month (September).
While I certainly don't like the delay, I've kinda written it off in my mind, so if it actually shows up it'll just be a nice bonus surprise.
Maccwar wrote: Some good news for all you backers - if you put in a little time an effort the boards paint up pretty nicely.
From this:-
to this:-
I'm not done yet either, still more detailing and weathering to go.
Of course it would have been nice if the boards had been painted all over to start with - that would have saved me some time and effort.
Can you post some of those images here. It's game related so Dakka can host. I cant see photobucket, it constantly wants to update the advertising and never gets around to the images.
Just realised I forgot to update this thread with my progress. I have now finished the boards themselves and I am back to working on the scenery to go on them. Here is what I have done.
Using masking tape I marked off parking bays to turn the park tile into a parking lot:-
I then made some inserts so that I can also use the tile as a park or a graveyard.
I have added brass drain and manhole covers to the board for a bit of extra detail.
And here is how things look now.
Meanwhile I can't believe that G&G still hasn't delivered the second wave of boards. I now count myself lucky to have got these.
3x + Fields of War pledger here, so lots of investment in this KS. As for the Anima, it arrived today!
While I like the board, painting is incredibly inconsistent. Although on Judge's link, the color inconsistencies look consistent...which also supports comments on the KS page. So while nice, not nearly as finished as promotion pictures.
Boards are far more finished than the Hawk, but as mentioned above, the paint job is bizarre. You can easily see where the sponge was blotted, looking like polka dots with a variety of shades. The boards themselves are also not consistent, with ample spillage over the edges and even excess onto the underside. Obviously has no bearing on usability, but a sign of a professional touch. There was also a total oversight on the straight board tile because it has no black indents to mark off a road edge of a corresponding tile.
End of the day, I will make some improvements and it will serve as nice basis for both a fantasy or grimdark cityscape. Being more of a surrounding and terrain gamer, I personally have a lot of fantasy stuff I'm very excited to set up on it.
So worth the $100? Absolutely. But even as being the last person to complain about my toy soldiers, I do not appreciate when a company is not transparent or accurately representing their products. They also are not even replying to respectful PMs on KS, so while I know they've taken abuse, they have totally circled the wagons.
Terminator board project has stalled while I finish up some Bolt Action projects, but soon I'll work on it! Have the nuclear playground, bricks, skulls, etc, all ready to go
Those do look quite good, judgedoug! Better than I expected with terrain on them and much more usable. Good to see the final product is (mostly) a positive at least!
I really hate to say it, but those boards really do look pretty good.
How sturdy are they?
Most likely still not something that I would buy, but it does look like something that would look very good, with a bit of repainting it would look excellent.
Looking at those boards, and assuming that's how they come out the package;
I'd paint the square cobbles in a different colour to the irregular ones, and pick out the detail areas. As it stands, it's a big expanse of grey. With a bit of work, it'll look really good.
Y'know, every time you sign your posts, I think it's a statement rather than a signature.
It's particularly appropriate for a thread like this. Even knowing to look out for it, I still keep thinking it's a declaration and to expect something awful to be referenced.
To be fair to G&G - they gave me a refund extremely quickly (within a day I think?) of asking for it. But it does hurt that the two friends I talked into backing for DzC boards are still waiting, and I'm not sure if they'll actually have their boards in 2015 even though it's next in line...
Dear backer,
Your item has been returned to us due to the size of the package we where told the size of the package would not be an issue initially as EUPEX
has no problem with it but AUPEX (sister delivery service) has...
Your original package was 65cm x 65 cm x 20m volume metric weight 17.5KG.
We are going to break them down into 6 packages. 65cm x 65cm x 3.1cm and resend them out to you.
We have been working behind the scenes in what was suppose to be a smooth process has lead to a few upsets and frustrations on our part.
Once repacked we will send it out next week via AUPEX and will be with 4-8 working days. Please let me know when you get these. I
will email you once your battle boards have been dispatched.
Sorry about this everywhere else in the world is ok and we have not had an issue like this. Will shoot you out an email next week,
Best,
Alice
Games & Gears LLP
Dear backer,
We will get back to you this Friday on your Anima set. Hopefully by then we have a tracking number and should be with you next week or at least by the week after thank you for your patience in this matter. We are now below the AUS girth dimension maximum level for all packages (even though we were told the original size was good initially.). We are just seeing if AUPEX tracking numbers can be tracked via AUS post site.
All packages are numbered and you should get these packages:
We are going to move the rest of the next wave of boards and trays to a ship wire warehouse in Australia so like with Urban Wars you will be the first to get the remain boards left if you have backed them as well.
We apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused, We understand there is a lot of excitement for these high end next gen boards and we are very eager for you to get your gears asap.
Don't have a tracking number yet, and that second email was on the 14th, but I'm still hopeful
Just a brief update on the Hellscape boards from the comments to update 113:
Games & Gears on January 21
@Gideo, If we cannot fulfill the Hellscape you will get a full refund. We will then destroy the boards and molds for Hellscape.
Games & Gears on January 21
Hi Ed, thanks for your comment.
On your great question on Hellscape. We have come to the decision with a heavy heart and not taken lightly that we need to wrap this KS up. It's been a huge struggle for us and our amazing backers in which the vast majority have stuck with us through thick and thin and the only KS that we have done with these huge delays, which has been really hard on us, we don't like delays as much as the next person. I think we mentioned before too many deadlines were way too over ambitious... as most KS's are over 12-24 months late on average without the huge challenge we have had to face. With great hindsight we should have quickly given out a 12-18 months delayed projection post floods... but we did not know any better as we never experienced a force majeure before and how to cope, relay info effectively, accurately and soundly post a situation like this. We fell into all the traps most people do who try to desperately pick themselves up and think we can sort it all out over night so to speak.. doesn't happen with an act of God.
It's a decision from the top. Fortunately G&G is a bigger beast as a business than before and although we will do as much as we can to support the battle board product line as a whole wave of gamers love them and have done quite well to our peers to who the same stuff. If we cannot deliver Hellscape in this format of a hard plastic high end battle board, which we are hoping to do. We will offer the FULL refund as promised.
We may revisit it in the future in another non plastic material. But nothing planned as yet. As 2016 products are sorted and many to be released direct through retail and more.
We are forever great full to our backers in bringing these great products to life and we hope Hellscape too. But we have the end this KS, move on and also do right with backers and offer a full refund if we cannot deliver Hellscape by the promised time
Because apparently in some universe this makes sense...
Yeah,
I got their double ended brushes and paint racks and they are pretty good.
I've received 3 of my 4 boards.
The quality of the plastic is great.
They fill a nice spot in the market, minor 3D detail that's flat for terrain.
IMO they should stop with the preprinted!
The quality of the paint is bad and it doesn't really add anything to the product that can't be achieved better by a hobbyist within a hour.
In fact making sure the old paint is primed before reprinting makes painting these take longer.
Panic wrote: Yeah,
I got their double ended brushes and paint racks and they are pretty good.
I've received 3 of my 4 boards.
The quality of the plastic is great.
They fill a nice spot in the market, minor 3D detail that's flat for terrain.
IMO they should stop with the preprinted!
The quality of the paint is bad and it doesn't really add anything to the product that can't be achieved better by a hobbyist within a hour.
In fact making sure the old paint is primed before reprinting makes painting these take longer.
Panic...
Every single one of the double ended brushes bought locally ended up being used for glue - the quality was bottom of the barrel, not top of the line.
Buying six unusable brushes is not 'pretty good'.
A quick look online shows that the local group was not unique in this experience - they were just plain bad brushes.
And more expensive than Rosemary & Company brushes, even with the discount.
So they were expensive bad brushes that we had to wait months for.
Rosemary & Company is a much better deal - a lower price on excellent brushes.
I am really hopeful they'll deliver quality DzC boards - the game really would benefit from these, and those were what I pledged for before getting a refund.
There are still two local players waiting on their DzC boards, though, and I think it might get more play once Dropfleet hits. So, hopefully they'll deliver well... but the delay here has really hurt.
As much as the communication from this creator also was inaccurate / etc, at least they do offer full refunds... that is much more than can be said of other projects which struggle. So, I'm really glad they were willing to refund me so quickly, and wish them the best with what seems to be their final board, and also the most needed/ useful and best fit for their product, imo.
RiTides wrote: I am really hopeful they'll deliver quality DzC boards - the game really would benefit from these, and those were what I pledged for before getting a refund.
There are still two local players waiting on their DzC boards, though, and I think it might get more play once Dropfleet hits. So, hopefully they'll deliver well... but the delay here has really hurt.
As much as the communication from this creator also was inaccurate / etc, at least they do offer full refunds... that is much more than can be said of other projects which struggle. So, I'm really glad they were willing to refund me so quickly, and wish them the best with what seems to be their final board, and also the most needed/ useful and best fit for their product, imo.
There is that - and they did replace the bad brushes - but the brushes that they replaced them with had the exact same problem. (Twelve bad brushes for the price of six.)
The Anima boards look very nice, at least when repainted - but so many lies have come out of this company... I would not trust them.
Ever.
The Auld Grump, yeah... a flood, that's the ticket....
RiTides wrote: There are still two local players waiting on their DzC boards, though, and I think it might get more play once Dropfleet hits. So, hopefully they'll deliver well... but the delay here has really hurt.
Not sure if I'm one of those two or not...but I ended up ordering one shortly after the KS (at a much inflated, possibly MSRP price), and am still holding out for mine. Despite the fact that it was "guaranteed delivery by Historicon 2014"...I'm hoping to finally have them for this year's Historicon.
I have multiple tables now of really nice MDF and resin terrain from Hawk, Blotz, 4Ground, etc, and keep putting them on crappy cardboard boards :(
So the most recent update says that Hellscape backers won't be getting their boards at all, and that they should contact G&G for a refund.
Whilst annoying that I gave G&G a three year interest free loan, I suppose I shouldn't complain too much if they actually follow through and give me my refund - it certainly could have been a lot worse.
Update spoilered below
Spoiler:
Dear backers,
We will now begin the process of fully refunding backers who have not yet received their Hellscape Battle board.
ALT Battle Board OPTION
There is a lot of you, who have requested for an alternative battle board. Which we have changed for you. Please bear in mind we will continue to do this upon request only via PM as we have very little left of alternative battle boards. (Anima, Anime wars, dropzone commander & Urban War). So we can change your hellscape board to another battle board until stocks of alternative board last, which we have very little left. Some regions around the world we are completely out of stock for alternative battle boards.
Please we are very limited in stock for this option and it will be first come first serve basis
Hellscape Full refund process:
To get your full refund please kindly PM us on the 7th & 8th of March 2016, your refund will then be processed on 9th & 10th of March 2016. If your card which you paid via the KS is not the same anymore. We will issue you a full refund via paypal as a personal/family payment so we bear the paypal charges instead of you.
Please give us your PAYPAL EMAIL ADDRESS via PM for us to make payment. If you card is no longer the same or valid via this KS. We will also mark down the refund via backerskit.
If you miss the 9th & 10th of March refund window. Don't worry, PM us and we will sort you out and give you the next date where we will process the refunds. We will issue you an update on the 9th of March to remind you to contact us regarding your full refund.
Due to the unfortunate force majuere since that with a very heavy heart we could not dispatch this and get this one theme in this particular product format out to market in a timely fashion in what has been a very difficult KS and we think you are all heroes for your fantastic support & patience in this matter. This decision was not taken lightly.
Thanks again for your incredible support and it's amazing to know the vast bulk of you are having good times on the battle boards you have received, which was the point of the project to create boards you can replay on for years and decades to comes. Lastly with the troubles had thank you immensely for making the battle boards a huge success. We have more users of these boards that most relative products out there and great to know thousands of players, playing on these next generation boards.
Thank you,
Battle Board Crew
FAQ: If your add ons where only relevant for the Hellscape battle board we will also honor and full refund on those too.
My DZC boards arrived today in the Northern VA area. They're not as great as I hoped for, but honestly better than I expected. I do not regret my purchase, and I purchased at actual retail price (I missed the Kickstarter). They WILL require a lot of work to tune up. I plan to hit all the grey with washes and weathering powders, and flock over the grass areas. I will probably leave the road lines as is, even through they're pretty poor...I don't expect my road lines to be perfect in a ruined city, and I'd probably make it look even worse if I tried to repaint by hand. Images spoilered below.
If I was going to beat up the lines on the Tarmac, I'd sponge some black over them to break them up, play around with some black weathering pigment and then flat coat over the top to smooth out any disparity in the reflection between the finished surface and my materials.
I don't know if they make it anymore since I haven't seen it at the hardware store in a while, but I have a can of water based minwax wood stain. I use it for washing really big things, and it works pretty good. I water it down first though because it will bead up on flat areas and look bad.. but if you're careful it can be really good at filling in cracks. So a good wash with that maybe with a light drybrush after would probably pick out the details on the sidewalk areas real good.
I know there's oil based stains and army painter has oil based washes in big cans, but I prefer to use water based for everything since I'm too lazy to spend $5 on turpentine.
Necros wrote: I don't know if they make it anymore since I haven't seen it at the hardware store in a while, but I have a can of water based minwax wood stain. I use it for washing really big things, and it works pretty good. I water it down first though because it will bead up on flat areas and look bad.. but if you're careful it can be really good at filling in cracks. So a good wash with that maybe with a light drybrush after would probably pick out the details on the sidewalk areas real good.
I know there's oil based stains and army painter has oil based washes in big cans, but I prefer to use water based for everything since I'm too lazy to spend $5 on turpentine.
MinWax water based stain is still made, and comes in a whole bunch of colors.
They aren't if you want a gaming surface that is quick to set up and break down. In that case a game mat will likely always be "better." However, if you want a gaming surface that isn't 2D, that has more realism than what amounts to a high quality mouse pad or vinyl banner, then a terrain board is often "better" than a game mat.
Joyboozer wrote: But I have Tablescapes for true 3D, and mats for quick and easy. I just don't get where these fit in? Is it just because they're cheap?
I have both and Tablescapes more pronounced 3D tiles are less friendly for gaming as you can't put terrain on top.
G&G is offering full refunds for any undelivered items. They have totally severed their relationship with the Chinese manufacturers and it appears no further boards will be made, and the trays will not be made either. They refunded me within thirty minutes of asking for a refund for my add-on tray set. Just message them through Kickstarter with your backerkit email address and what add-ons you did not receive.
and much more usable. Good to see the final product is (mostly) a positive at least!
