That might be worth having some clarification actually.. think there was one chap a while ago in the thread saying that, although it hasn't been mentioned since?
The KS claimed to have some good artists working for them (although I realise that isn't worth what it once was now! ) Some of the renders looked interesting though..
from Twitter they are swapping to Verkami tomorrow
Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project
So, if Verkami are based in Barcelona, assume that will give them a potion of invulnerability to protect them against the attacks of Bitter RPG Designer Champion?
much as I want a HQ remake I'm not touching this now given the mess it's in.
Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project.
175 projects most of them well below 10,000 euros, most of them unfunded...
I wish them the best of luck and would recommend that they talk to a competent IP lawyer before their next project.
It will be interesting to see how many of the KS backers migrate over to the new project...
Azazelx wrote: That stuff would hardly be unique to Gamezone or HeroQuest. Heard of Sedition Wars? Zombicide S2? Relic Knights? Dreamforge Games Leviathan Project? Red Box Games Hellsvakt Horde? Secret Weapon Tablescapes? Trollforged Assimilation Alien Host? Cthulhu Wars? and on and on and on..... In fact "serious delays" is now taken to be a given for any KS project, and it's a surprise when one doesn't have them. Of course, that doesn't stop the project creators for new projects telling us that their project really, truly will be on time...
Hey, you forgot Up Front!
After Up Front, I'm not backing projects that may be subject to litigation. After Alien Assimilation, I'm wary of projects that depend on one person. With HQ25 garnering *half a million CAD* on KS in only three days, it's unlikely that the project will not be funded.
Of the miniatures boardgames I've seen, HQ is probably one of the easier ones to make from scratch. Even Hasbro has the rulebook and quests online. Only a matter of searching for the cards and waiting for the ArtsCow discount!
Of the miniatures boardgames I've seen, HQ is probably one of the easier ones to make from scratch. Even Hasbro has the rulebook and quests online. Only a matter of searching for the cards and waiting for the ArtsCow discount!
Agree. The rules and board are pretty easy to obtain. You don't actually NEED cards to play as it is easy enough to know what the cards are, print them out on paper and randomize via other means. A 'card mechanic' is not that integral to gameplay.
Gamezone seems to be a miniature company first and foremost. The thing that makes this super attractive is updated models, especially terrain pieces like doors and bookshelves and junk.
They could easily release 'dungeon' monsters which are the same models they plan to release, and release 'dungeon furniture' that they plan to release. Make them, have them look good, sell them as 'monster packs/terrain packs'.
Next, SELL DICE. They can make a generic dice which does what it needs to.
If they already have the models, later, they can release a 'board pack' with rules and boards after they have proven themselves and delt with legal issues. Then people who own models can buy a board + Monster + Dungeon pack and have a complete game.
If anything, I would like them to move ahead on the models, as the terrain pieces are what is needed by most collectors right now. They could release monsters, Furniture/terrain and a board right now on KS and no one could do a dang thing to them.
DaveC wrote: from Twitter they are swapping to Verkami tomorrow
http://www.verkami.com/ much as I want a HQ remake I'm not touching this now given the mess it's in. If it hits retail and they can sell it unopposed I'll pick it up then.
Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project.
This.
I wish them all the best, etc, but I'm not crowdfunding anything that's this messy nor anything that's not on Kickstarter - I've had bad experiences with Indiegogo, and they seem easier to work with than Verkami. If I really want to play HeroQuest, I have 1.8 copies of it, and more than enough miniatures to use for anything at all in the game.
They could easily release 'dungeon' monsters which are the same models they plan to release, and release 'dungeon furniture' that they plan to release. Make them, have them look good, sell them as 'monster packs/terrain packs'.
Next, SELL DICE. They can make a generic dice which does what it needs to.
If they already have the models, later, they can release a 'board pack' with rules and boards after they have proven themselves and delt with legal issues. Then people who own models can buy a board + Monster + Dungeon pack and have a complete game.
If anything, I would like them to move ahead on the models, as the terrain pieces are what is needed by most collectors right now. They could release monsters, Furniture/terrain and a board right now on KS and no one could do a dang thing to them.
I think that's a good idea too nkelsch, I'd even back that and wasn't planning to back the board game, as those could be used for all sorts of similar games. No one would want to do anything about it, either- it'd be in the clear on all counts.
We will see, won't we? The auspices are troubled, and by auspices I mean the recent rumors that GZ is these days a one-man operation. Have you noticed they've not put out anything since their resin dark elf spearmen, and those were a while ago?
and Dark Elf cavalry and about a month or so ago the normal Elf spearmen.
RiTides wrote: I think that's a good idea too nkelsch, I'd even back that and wasn't planning to back the board game, as those could be used for all sorts of similar games. No one would want to do anything about it, either- it'd be in the clear on all counts.
Thirded. That's an excellent idea. And it keeps folks from getting their knickers in a twist. Ironically, GameZone's use of the mark has already drawn plenty of attention and interest such that dropping its use and proceeding with the components would probably allow GameZone to maintain or 'reattract' a decent portion of the initial backers.
RiTides wrote: Probably more than will migrate over to the much less known crowdsourcing site they're considering, to boot...
These are the kinds of creative solutions people should be trying to think of. This kind of stuff tends to pop up when parties consider interests instead of what they want, or deserve, or what is right or wrong, i.e. positions. Rather than taking positions, the parties should consider their interests.
What are GameZone's interests? It is in GameZone's interest to go forward with producing products it has sunk a lot of effort into already, right? That's probably true. It is not in GameZone's interest to sully the name of its company and lose prospective customers, right? It is in GameZone's interest to use the HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition mark. That's pretty obvious.
But what interest is more important, using the mark or producing the products without damaging the company?
What are Moon Design's interests? I have less sound guesses here. I suppose it is in Moon Design's interest to maintain control over a mark it has had trouble securing. That seems to make sense. Now, causing a big fight over the mark may run against this interest, because it introduces the risk that Moon Design's mark could be invalidated, and if an attempt to block GameZone's registration of its mark fails, Moon Design will have less of a standing in an infringement suit, and will have gone a long way toward solidifying the position of another company using the HeroQuest mark for a board game before Moon Design can.
What other interests does Moon Design have? Does Moon Design have an interest in maintaining space in the market for its own release of a HeroQuest marked board game? That could be. But that interest would seem to be narrowly limited to the mark and not specifics of the product, because the adventure-style dungeon crawl board game format is hardly new or unique.
So how would the two parties best protect their interests? What sort of deal could be worked out that would allow both parties to get most of what they want?
That perspective spawns the type of creative thinking like nkelsch has done. So how 'bout it? What sort of arrangement could the parties make, hypothetically, that would best serve their respective interests?
Might we all start throwing around some ideas?
What if Moon Design and GameZone could work out a modified, limited use of something like the mark that GameZone wants to use, for the purposes of a new Kickstarter campaign? For example, the product could officially be called Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories or Dungeon Gameplay Upgrades or whatever. But with a limited license from Moon Design, GameZone is allowed to say that the products can be used to replace or upgrade the integral components of the HeroQuest board game, or that the project is dedicated to the 25th Anniversary of the HeroQuest game, or that the project is intended to fund a set of Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories called the 25th Anniversary HeroQuest set.
Or maybe GameZone is allowed to use the HeroQuest mark with just the models, and the related board tiles, scenarios, and whatnot would have to have a different mark, but this would still allow the Kickstarter campaign to prominently feature the HeroQuest mark. Maybe this is a limited use just for the duration of the campaign, or that a subset of the models are confined to a limited edition, or that GameZone agrees to not package the models with board tiles and scenarios.
Maybe in exchange for GameZone backing off of further attempts to secure an independent HeroQuest mark, Moon Design can agree to allow GameZone to produce the miniatures for a subsequent Moon Design board game that is being planned (if there was one)?
What other ideas do y'all have? I'm sure many of you have really good ones. And I'm sure most of them are better than getting embroiled in an expensive, years long legal dispute that monopolizes your time, causes considerable stress, tarnishes your company's reputation, and puts business development into a stalemate.
Weeble wins Dakka today. Very nice post, man. As much as I'm all gung ho for Gamezone I would like this to be resolved amicably and in everyone's best interests - including and especially my own, so I can buy the damn thing
RiTides wrote: Probably more than will migrate over to the much less known crowdsourcing site they're considering, to boot...
These are the kinds of creative solutions people should be trying to think of. This kind of stuff tends to pop up when parties consider interests instead of what they want, or deserve, or what is right or wrong, i.e. positions. Rather than taking positions, the parties should consider their interests.
What are GameZone's interests? It is in GameZone's interest to go forward with producing products it has sunk a lot of effort into already, right? That's probably true. It is not in GameZone's interest to sully the name of its company and lose prospective customers, right? It is in GameZone's interest to use the HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition mark. That's pretty obvious.
But what interest is more important, using the mark or producing the products without damaging the company?
What are Moon Design's interests? I have less sound guesses here. I suppose it is in Moon Design's interest to maintain control over a mark it has had trouble securing. That seems to make sense. Now, causing a big fight over the mark may run against this interest, because it introduces the risk that Moon Design's mark could be invalidated, and if an attempt to block GameZone's registration of its mark fails, Moon Design will have less of a standing in an infringement suit, and will have gone a long way toward solidifying the position of another company using the HeroQuest mark for a board game before Moon Design can.
What other interests does Moon Design have? Does Moon Design have an interest in maintaining space in the market for its own release of a HeroQuest marked board game? That could be. But that interest would seem to be narrowly limited to the mark and not specifics of the product, because the adventure-style dungeon crawl board game format is hardly new or unique.
So how would the two parties best protect their interests? What sort of deal could be worked out that would allow both parties to get most of what they want?
That perspective spawns the type of creative thinking like nkelsch has done. So how 'bout it? What sort of arrangement could the parties make, hypothetically, that would best serve their respective interests?
Might we all start throwing around some ideas?
What if Moon Design and GameZone could work out a modified, limited use of something like the mark that GameZone wants to use, for the purposes of a new Kickstarter campaign? For example, the product could officially be called Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories or Dungeon Gameplay Upgrades or whatever. But with a limited license from Moon Design, GameZone is allowed to say that the products can be used to replace or upgrade the integral components of the HeroQuest board game, or that the project is dedicated to the 25th Anniversary of the HeroQuest game, or that the project is intended to fund a set of Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories called the 25th Anniversary HeroQuest set.
Or maybe GameZone is allowed to use the HeroQuest mark with just the models, and the related board tiles, scenarios, and whatnot would have to have a different mark, but this would still allow the Kickstarter campaign to prominently feature the HeroQuest mark. Maybe this is a limited use just for the duration of the campaign, or that a subset of the models are confined to a limited edition, or that GameZone agrees to not package the models with board tiles and scenarios.
Maybe in exchange for GameZone backing off of further attempts to secure an independent HeroQuest mark, Moon Design can agree to allow GameZone to produce the miniatures for a subsequent Moon Design board game that is being planned (if there was one)?
What other ideas do y'all have? I'm sure many of you have really good ones. And I'm sure most of them are better than getting embroiled in an expensive, years long legal dispute that monopolizes your time, causes considerable stress, tarnishes your company's reputation, and puts business development into a stalemate.
I have been quietly keeping up on what's happening with this out of pure interest. I am not vested in the project in any way, but it seems to me there is a perfect setup like the one you mentioned if the companies were a bit more levelheaded.
Basically they could put out a game together called Heroquest and rule the land. A bit less cake for GZ, but on the other hand - at this point I am thinking it would mean more cake.
Pacific wrote: That might be worth having some clarification actually.. think there was one chap a while ago in the thread saying that, although it hasn't been mentioned since?
The KS claimed to have some good artists working for them (although I realise that isn't worth what it once was now! ) Some of the renders looked interesting though..
from Twitter they are swapping to Verkami tomorrow
Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project
So, if Verkami are based in Barcelona, assume that will give them a potion of invulnerability to protect them against the attacks of Bitter RPG Designer Champion?
Hardly bitter, those RPG designers. Here's a comment from Jeff Richard of Moon Design Publishing, from a Google+ discussion:
"Jeff Richard
Yesterday 01:34
Hey, if they want to do their unlicensed remake of a MB Game on Verkami, that's not our problem and I'd be perfectly happy to wish them well. As for the USPTO, I strongly doubt that the examining attorney will approve their application, but we'll be watching the process.
That being said, if someone actually had the rights to remake MB Heroquest, we'd have no qualms about licensing the US trademark. Or if Hasbro wanted to do it..."
RiTides wrote: Probably more than will migrate over to the much less known crowdsourcing site they're considering, to boot...
These are the kinds of creative solutions people should be trying to think of. This kind of stuff tends to pop up when parties consider interests instead of what they want, or deserve, or what is right or wrong, i.e. positions. Rather than taking positions, the parties should consider their interests.
What are GameZone's interests? It is in GameZone's interest to go forward with producing products it has sunk a lot of effort into already, right? That's probably true. It is not in GameZone's interest to sully the name of its company and lose prospective customers, right? It is in GameZone's interest to use the HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition mark. That's pretty obvious.
But what interest is more important, using the mark or producing the products without damaging the company?
What are Moon Design's interests? I have less sound guesses here. I suppose it is in Moon Design's interest to maintain control over a mark it has had trouble securing. That seems to make sense. Now, causing a big fight over the mark may run against this interest, because it introduces the risk that Moon Design's mark could be invalidated, and if an attempt to block GameZone's registration of its mark fails, Moon Design will have less of a standing in an infringement suit, and will have gone a long way toward solidifying the position of another company using the HeroQuest mark for a board game before Moon Design can.
What other interests does Moon Design have? Does Moon Design have an interest in maintaining space in the market for its own release of a HeroQuest marked board game? That could be. But that interest would seem to be narrowly limited to the mark and not specifics of the product, because the adventure-style dungeon crawl board game format is hardly new or unique.
So how would the two parties best protect their interests? What sort of deal could be worked out that would allow both parties to get most of what they want?
That perspective spawns the type of creative thinking like nkelsch has done. So how 'bout it? What sort of arrangement could the parties make, hypothetically, that would best serve their respective interests?
Might we all start throwing around some ideas?
What if Moon Design and GameZone could work out a modified, limited use of something like the mark that GameZone wants to use, for the purposes of a new Kickstarter campaign? For example, the product could officially be called Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories or Dungeon Gameplay Upgrades or whatever. But with a limited license from Moon Design, GameZone is allowed to say that the products can be used to replace or upgrade the integral components of the HeroQuest board game, or that the project is dedicated to the 25th Anniversary of the HeroQuest game, or that the project is intended to fund a set of Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories called the 25th Anniversary HeroQuest set.
Or maybe GameZone is allowed to use the HeroQuest mark with just the models, and the related board tiles, scenarios, and whatnot would have to have a different mark, but this would still allow the Kickstarter campaign to prominently feature the HeroQuest mark. Maybe this is a limited use just for the duration of the campaign, or that a subset of the models are confined to a limited edition, or that GameZone agrees to not package the models with board tiles and scenarios.
Maybe in exchange for GameZone backing off of further attempts to secure an independent HeroQuest mark, Moon Design can agree to allow GameZone to produce the miniatures for a subsequent Moon Design board game that is being planned (if there was one)?
What other ideas do y'all have? I'm sure many of you have really good ones. And I'm sure most of them are better than getting embroiled in an expensive, years long legal dispute that monopolizes your time, causes considerable stress, tarnishes your company's reputation, and puts business development into a stalemate.
I have been quietly keeping up on what's happening with this out of pure interest. I am not vested in the project in any way, but it seems to me there is a perfect setup like the one you mentioned if the companies were a bit more levelheaded.
Basically they could put out a game together called Heroquest and rule the land. A bit less cake for GZ, but on the other hand - at this point I am thinking it would mean more cake.
As generous an idea as this is its based on a misunderstanding - that the board game Moon Design put out under the name "HeroQuest" is some form of Dungeon Crawl similar in concept to MBs own or GZs tribute. I don't believe it would be as "heroquesting" in Glorantha is about travelling into the Godsworld and re-enacting Myths in order to acquire benefits, powers, changes in reality to suit immediate need back in the mundane world. It may involve gaining community support for the ritual, researching the myth, and other such factors in the game design and components. Dungeon-style miniatures, heck miniatures at all, seem extremely unlikely, to me anyway. Though I have no involvement with the design of the game.
Agree. The rules and board are pretty easy to obtain. You don't actually NEED cards to play as it is easy enough to know what the cards are, print them out on paper and randomize via other means. A 'card mechanic' is not that integral to gameplay.
Gamezone seems to be a miniature company first and foremost. The thing that makes this super attractive is updated models, especially terrain pieces like doors and bookshelves and junk.
They could easily release 'dungeon' monsters which are the same models they plan to release, and release 'dungeon furniture' that they plan to release. Make them, have them look good, sell them as 'monster packs/terrain packs'.
Next, SELL DICE. They can make a generic dice which does what it needs to.
If they already have the models, later, they can release a 'board pack' with rules and boards after they have proven themselves and delt with legal issues. Then people who own models can buy a board + Monster + Dungeon pack and have a complete game.
If anything, I would like them to move ahead on the models, as the terrain pieces are what is needed by most collectors right now. They could release monsters, Furniture/terrain and a board right now on KS and no one could do a dang thing to them.
SERIOUSLY. DO THIS GAME ZONE.
What a wonderful idea. They could keep it on Kickstarter too, sell it as dungeon terrain, monster terrain, keep it damn simple, deliver it on time, and win everyone's trust back.
Do a few of those, release your own HQ inspired game.
much as I want a HQ remake I'm not touching this now given the mess it's in.
Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project.
175 projects most of them well below 10,000 euros, most of them unfunded...
I wish them the best of luck and would recommend that they talk to a competent IP lawyer before their next project.
That count doesn't include the past succesfull ones. no.1 collected 350k & next 90+ collected over 10k money during their 40 day pledge-drive.
Granted, it isn't kickstarter, but I'd still count them better than Indiegogo, thanks to the lack of Flexible sca.... Funding.
RiTides wrote: Probably more than will migrate over to the much less known crowdsourcing site they're considering, to boot...
These are the kinds of creative solutions people should be trying to think of. This kind of stuff tends to pop up when parties consider interests instead of what they want, or deserve, or what is right or wrong, i.e. positions. Rather than taking positions, the parties should consider their interests.
What are GameZone's interests? It is in GameZone's interest to go forward with producing products it has sunk a lot of effort into already, right? That's probably true. It is not in GameZone's interest to sully the name of its company and lose prospective customers, right? It is in GameZone's interest to use the HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition mark. That's pretty obvious.
But what interest is more important, using the mark or producing the products without damaging the company?
What are Moon Design's interests? I have less sound guesses here. I suppose it is in Moon Design's interest to maintain control over a mark it has had trouble securing. That seems to make sense. Now, causing a big fight over the mark may run against this interest, because it introduces the risk that Moon Design's mark could be invalidated, and if an attempt to block GameZone's registration of its mark fails, Moon Design will have less of a standing in an infringement suit, and will have gone a long way toward solidifying the position of another company using the HeroQuest mark for a board game before Moon Design can.
What other interests does Moon Design have? Does Moon Design have an interest in maintaining space in the market for its own release of a HeroQuest marked board game? That could be. But that interest would seem to be narrowly limited to the mark and not specifics of the product, because the adventure-style dungeon crawl board game format is hardly new or unique.
So how would the two parties best protect their interests? What sort of deal could be worked out that would allow both parties to get most of what they want?
That perspective spawns the type of creative thinking like nkelsch has done. So how 'bout it? What sort of arrangement could the parties make, hypothetically, that would best serve their respective interests?
Might we all start throwing around some ideas?
What if Moon Design and GameZone could work out a modified, limited use of something like the mark that GameZone wants to use, for the purposes of a new Kickstarter campaign? For example, the product could officially be called Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories or Dungeon Gameplay Upgrades or whatever. But with a limited license from Moon Design, GameZone is allowed to say that the products can be used to replace or upgrade the integral components of the HeroQuest board game, or that the project is dedicated to the 25th Anniversary of the HeroQuest game, or that the project is intended to fund a set of Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories called the 25th Anniversary HeroQuest set.
Or maybe GameZone is allowed to use the HeroQuest mark with just the models, and the related board tiles, scenarios, and whatnot would have to have a different mark, but this would still allow the Kickstarter campaign to prominently feature the HeroQuest mark. Maybe this is a limited use just for the duration of the campaign, or that a subset of the models are confined to a limited edition, or that GameZone agrees to not package the models with board tiles and scenarios.
Maybe in exchange for GameZone backing off of further attempts to secure an independent HeroQuest mark, Moon Design can agree to allow GameZone to produce the miniatures for a subsequent Moon Design board game that is being planned (if there was one)?
What other ideas do y'all have? I'm sure many of you have really good ones. And I'm sure most of them are better than getting embroiled in an expensive, years long legal dispute that monopolizes your time, causes considerable stress, tarnishes your company's reputation, and puts business development into a stalemate.
I have been quietly keeping up on what's happening with this out of pure interest. I am not vested in the project in any way, but it seems to me there is a perfect setup like the one you mentioned if the companies were a bit more levelheaded.
Basically they could put out a game together called Heroquest and rule the land. A bit less cake for GZ, but on the other hand - at this point I am thinking it would mean more cake.
As generous an idea as this is its based on a misunderstanding - that the board game Moon Design put out under the name "HeroQuest" is some form of Dungeon Crawl similar in concept to MBs own or GZs tribute. I don't believe it would be as "heroquesting" in Glorantha is about travelling into the Godsworld and re-enacting Myths in order to acquire benefits, powers, changes in reality to suit immediate need back in the mundane world. It may involve gaining community support for the ritual, researching the myth, and other such factors in the game design and components. Dungeon-style miniatures, heck miniatures at all, seem extremely unlikely, to me anyway. Though I have no involvement with the design of the game.
I do understand that Moon Design does RPGs and that their HQ is something different, but I also find it likely that they are in the business of making money. Evidently they would be quite happy licensing their trademark for said dungeon crawl given the right circumstances as the stated prerequisite is that either Hasbro does it or Hasbro signing off on someone else doing it - and paying Moon Design . And this is according to them.
I don't want to be one of those that go "Now I am no lawyer bla bla...", but if what's been stated so far about it not being "Heroquest" (in that the rules have been rewritten and everything else is altered so that it would not be a carbon copy of MB's Heroquest and thus not infringe on any IP), I don't see why they wouldn't go for it. I mean I do see quite clearly that this is business and business is about making money. It would make sense for Moon Design to push any button they can to either secure a piece of the pie or protect their TM for their current and future endevours if the piece of pie is not to their satisfaction. That is also exactly what they are doing. So is GZ.
No one is coming to an agreement until GZ has exhausted all other options in order to not cut any pie.
You don't need to know any legalese to understand how the economics work. The game is not being made for the sheer joy of bringing it back to the fans. It would then be a free download of sorts. It's a prime money making property. GZ just thought of it first. It's now a race, and that is why GZ is in such a hurry to cement that it's their baby and get it out there. I am certain a lot of clone "dungeon packs" will crop up soon in the wake of this given how much interest there is. You don't even need to supply rules since the original are freely obtainable in a legal fashion.
As I understand it, MD is looking for a *written* agreement that Hasbro isn't going after GZ, MD, or whoever about a HQ boardgame in the US -- and that GZ hasn't produced it. Because it hasn't been provided, MD isn't touching this project at all. If GZ makes HQ-compatible figures, then get tied of up in litigation, guess what. Even though the figures are HQ-free, the company isn't, and the project gets delayed. If the litgation in Up Front tells us anything, this could be a *long* time.
Wishful thinking isn't going to settle this. And, in the end, nobody knows what would happen until the courts hand down a ruling. I think USA gamers are best waiting it out until the game hits retail. Spanish gamers will have to have faith that GZ won't take more of these IP risks.
In any case, if you think the risks are worth the reward, back the project.
Pacific wrote: That might be worth having some clarification actually.. think there was one chap a while ago in the thread saying that, although it hasn't been mentioned since?
The KS claimed to have some good artists working for them (although I realise that isn't worth what it once was now! ) Some of the renders looked interesting though..
from Twitter they are swapping to Verkami tomorrow
http://www.verkami.com/ Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project
So, if Verkami are based in Barcelona, assume that will give them a potion of invulnerability to protect them against the attacks of Bitter RPG Designer Champion?
Hardly bitter, those RPG designers. Here's a comment from Jeff Richard of Moon Design Publishing, from a Google+ discussion:
"Jeff Richard
Yesterday 01:34
Hey, if they want to do their unlicensed remake of a MB Game on Verkami, that's not our problem and I'd be perfectly happy to wish them well. As for the USPTO, I strongly doubt that the examining attorney will approve their application, but we'll be watching the process.
That being said, if someone actually had the rights to remake MB Heroquest, we'd have no qualms about licensing the US trademark. Or if Hasbro wanted to do it..."
I was trying to just be funny, but there we go Perhaps not this comment, but the previous letter sounded extremely so. But then, perhaps I would be too if I had a company that had been struggling, then some Spanish company came along, wrote "Heroquest LOL" on Kickstarter and then proceeded to collect half a million dollars in 3 days.
As I understand it, MD is looking for a *written* agreement that Hasbro isn't going after GZ, MD, or whoever about a HQ boardgame in the US -- and that GZ hasn't produced it. Because it hasn't been provided, MD isn't touching this project at all. If GZ makes HQ-compatible figures, then get tied of up in litigation, guess what. Even though the figures are HQ-free, the company isn't, and the project gets delayed. If the litgation in Up Front tells us anything, this could be a *long* time.
This was kind of my impression as well, is it correct?
DaveC wrote:much as I want a HQ remake I'm not touching this now given the mess it's in. If it hits retail and they can sell it unopposed I'll pick it up then.
You know that retail means in Spain only, right? Though they will probably have a mail order option.
Azazelx wrote:I wish them all the best, etc, but I'm not crowdfunding anything that's this messy nor anything that's not on Kickstarter - I've had bad experiences with Indiegogo, and they seem easier to work with than Verkami. If I really want to play HeroQuest, I have 1.8 copies of it, and more than enough miniatures to use for anything at all in the game.
So you won't back projects that make it difficult to drop the pledge? Surprising!
Psychman wrote:"Jeff Richard
Yesterday 01:34
That being said, if someone actually had the rights to remake MB Heroquest, we'd have no qualms about licensing the US trademark. Or if Hasbro wanted to do it..."
DaveC wrote:much as I want a HQ remake I'm not touching this now given the mess it's in. If it hits retail and they can sell it unopposed I'll pick it up then.
You know that retail means in Spain only, right? Though they will probably have a mail order option.
Yep I have a Spanish mailing address I can use if it comes to it but buying it online and mailing it shouldn't be an issue - if they get to that point.
from Twitter they are swapping to Verkami tomorrow
http://www.verkami.com/ Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project
That's true, but they also happen to guarantee the completion of the project (or something like that):
What happens if I contribute to a project that is successfully funded and the creator is unable to complete it? Creators in verkami must complete their project as listed and abude by their commitments to patrons. In case they don't/ can't they must give back each patron their contribution.
Yep. Do a search on "KickStarter hansfree" and "KickStarter doom atlantic city" for a few "interesting" KickStarters. Might as well read the "What does this mean for Up Front" thread about the Up Front card game KickStarter while waiting for Verkami.
ced1106 wrote: Yep. Do a search on "KickStarter hansfree" and "KickStarter doom atlantic city" for a few "interesting" KickStarters. Might as well read the "What does this mean for Up Front" thread about the Up Front card game KickStarter while waiting for Verkami.
$58,000 became €58,000 - that's $82,000 or so I see maths isn't their strong point either
Not a single mention of a canceled kickstarter campaign or a challenge by Moon Designs in the risks and challenges section again GameZone being very selective with what they talk about.
And then there is this
One of the most positive aspects of Verkami is that the success of the project means a real obligation. This way there will be a firm commitment to produce the game. Verkami even establishes a policy to return the money to all backers in the event that it was impossible to carry this project out. It is a full warranty insurance
Verkami offers no guarantee of money back all they say is it's up to creator to refund if they can't fulfill but the backer still carries the risk of losing their money.
And this from the HQ classic website
The stretch goals that were already released, will return to gain from a base figure, all of them, you won't need to unlock them again.
But stretch goal one is to unlock the monster cards again so which is it they are in from the start hence the increased funding total or unlock them all again?
Will keep an eye on it but longer this goes the more I get a bad vibe from it.
I'll be following this, but I won't be pledging just due to my unfamiliarity with the site and all the wonky drama.
I may be convinced once photographs of models start coming out. This will very likely be successful and inevitably, once successful, this will be sold on internet retailers and/or eBay. I'll pick it up then.
I'm really happy to jump on board the relaunched campaign.
I stand by my previous statements about Moon Design. The money grubbing, stain of a company can suck it. Go and celebrate that wonderful RPG of yours, that no one associates with Heroquest.
MOD EDIT - Please don't post images like this - thanks. - Alpharius
Well, just because I'm really curious how this will go, I've backed at the 9 Euro shipping cost level. That way, I can keep track of it, because I suspect this will go pear-shaped at some point.
And I thought I'd chosen one of the less offensive options?
Ah well, lesson learned. I'll behave now.
I would really seriously recommend people try out the new funding option. Just because it's a different platform doesn't mean it's a lesser option. This one actually requires a failed project repay all backers, KS doesn't have any such condition.
Splod wrote: This one actually requires a failed project repay all backers, KS doesn't have any such condition.
Curious to see how you feel this is actually enforceable? Kickstarter has a 'Creator's should reimburse backers if they cannot fulfill rewards' policy as well; but you can't get blood from a stone.
And yet the Law is the reason anyone has any nice things at all - the irony!
When 1% of the people have 99% of the nice things, the irony is lost on me
Personally the whole drama surrounding this has really made me lose faith in the project. Even though Moon Design were kind of the party poopers here, I think Gamezone are on recklessly shaky legal ground. I recall Hasbro moved on Scrbulous just for having a similar name to scrabble, not to mention Games Workshop who seem to assume that everything including the word "Hero" is their property.
It just doesn't feel right to me. I would not be surprised if there were many more legal roadblocks ahead.
Well this is probably a discussion for off-topic, but since it's you (and since no one likes me there...)
I'm fairly serious. For example the U.S. farm subsidy program, cost taxpayers nearly $20 billion in 2007. A Cato Institute study found that, two-thirds of the subsidies went to the richest 10 percent of recipients. Recipients include Ted Turner, and former Enron CEO Kenneth Lay. A later study found that around 93 billion was wasted on corporate subsidies.
It's almost like people with money and influence... are influencing legislation... to get themselves... more money.
People with no money usually have zero influence, so I think the addition of laws is less likely to send nice things their way. I'm certain in a lawless world I could beat up Donald Trump and steal his stuff, so I stand by original statement.
Interesting. It was around 20000 euros about a half hour ago, but the project doesn't appear on verkami anymore. Wonder what new shenanigans are going on.
Triple9 wrote: Interesting. It was around 20000 euros about a half hour ago, but the project doesn't appear on verkami anymore. Wonder what new shenanigans are going on.
Lol, you're right. The Verkami link in the OP now leads to a "page not found". The handling of this certainly leaves something to be desired.
Triple9 wrote: Interesting. It was around 20000 euros about a half hour ago, but the project doesn't appear on verkami anymore. Wonder what new shenanigans are going on.
Lol, you're right. The Verkami link in the OP now leads to a "page not found". The handling of this certainly leaves something to be desired.
Strange, I could have sworn the link was working a while ago.
The link was definitely working a few hours ago, maybe even one hour. You'd think they would have made 100% sure Verkami was okay with the project before launching, in order to avoid another fiasco...
Triple9 wrote: What makes no sense to me is that even if there was a problem, who would be around to pull the plug at 5:00 AM-ish on a Sunday in Spain.
Specifically as the project was Pre-approved by the Verkami, around saturday midnight!
This may just be Verkami's way of doing a "suspended due to IP dispute". They're not as big as Kickstarter, so they must not get DMCA shutdown requests often. It may not be a full and complete shutdown+deletion.
No doubt Moon Design would have sent a shutdown request after hearing of this Verkami project.
It may just be me, but releasing just miniatures and dice packs wouldn't be as attractive to me and many others as a full game. Releasing a board game hits the points of nostalgia and simply being a full game.
Additionally, if they're going to release just models, they may as well make those "reptillian cyclopses" that HeroQuest fans are fimirliar with.
Then again, a doors/furniture pack in sculpted models would be very welcome.
We want to comunicate our decision of stoping the campaign were you had pledged: ‘Heroquest 25th Anniversary’
The urge to publish the project by the authors today sunday 8 at 1 am has precipitated it’s publication without being able, the team of verkami, to spend the right time to review the project.
After carefully studying the campaign, we believe that the content of the project could be misleading to our users.
Your pledges will be cancelled so no charges will be made in your card or PayPal account.
We thank you for your trust, and we want to apologize for any inconvenience our handling of the project might have caused.
Absolutionis wrote: It may just be me, but releasing just miniatures and dice packs wouldn't be as attractive to me and many others as a full game. Releasing a board game hits the points of nostalgia and simply being a full game.
Additionally, if they're going to release just models, they may as well make those "reptillian cyclopses" that HeroQuest fans are fimirliar with.
Then again, a doors/furniture pack in sculpted models would be very welcome.
Yeah, but if the alternative is 'Nothing' then that is bad for all.
I have the old game, so new parts is super appealing, but I was looking forward to quest-packs.
If your models are good, you can give away the game rules for free.
Maybe Hasblow will just wise up and make it again? They do treat their other collector communities pretty well.
We want to comunicate our decision of stoping the campaign were you had pledged: ‘Heroquest 25th Anniversary’
The urge to publish the project by the authors today sunday 8 at 1 am has precipitated it’s publication without being able, the team of verkami, to spend the right time to review the project.
After carefully studying the campaign, we believe that the content of the project could be misleading to our users.
Your pledges will be cancelled so no charges will be made in your card or PayPal account.
We thank you for your trust, and we want to apologize for any inconvenience our handling of the project might have caused.
So, are we just going to end up with a rushed version of "heroquest" released by whoever actually own it, to take advantage of its sudden popularity?
I'd much prefer someone who actually gave a gak had control.
Joyboozer wrote: So, are we just going to end up with a rushed version of "heroquest" released by whoever actually own it, to take advantage of its sudden popularity?
I'd much prefer someone who actually gave a gak had control.
Nah, we'll get Moon Design's awesome HeroQuest board game in the Glorantha universe, complete with a paper mat and chit counters (to represent anthropomorphic ducks, of course) and an awkward dated ruleset (to retain the system's clunky flavor from the RPG)
We want to comunicate our decision of stoping the campaign were you had pledged: ‘Heroquest 25th Anniversary’
The urge to publish the project by the authors today sunday 8 at 1 am has precipitated it’s publication without being able, the team of verkami, to spend the right time to review the project.
After carefully studying the campaign, we believe that the content of the project could be misleading to our users.
Your pledges will be cancelled so no charges will be made in your card or PayPal account.
We thank you for your trust, and we want to apologize for any inconvenience our handling of the project might have caused.
Verkami team
I give up. If this thing ever makes it to retail I'll import it in - until then i'm going to hop off this roller coaster ride :(
It's done finished they've messed this up so badly now I found it interesting that nearly all the Verkami backers last night seemed to be Spanish based going off the shipping destinations selected International backers staying away.
Hasbro and GW don't need to do anything GZ is more than capable of getting their own project shut down by themselves.
Well this is probably a discussion for off-topic, but since it's you (and since no one likes me there...)
I'm fairly serious. For example the U.S. farm subsidy program, cost taxpayers nearly $20 billion in 2007. A Cato Institute study found that, two-thirds of the subsidies went to the richest 10 percent of recipients. Recipients include Ted Turner, and former Enron CEO Kenneth Lay. A later study found that around 93 billion was wasted on corporate subsidies.
It's almost like people with money and influence... are influencing legislation... to get themselves... more money.
People with no money usually have zero influence, so I think the addition of laws is less likely to send nice things their way. I'm certain in a lawless world I could beat up Donald Trump and steal his stuff, so I stand by original statement.
Yeah, that whole 'civilization' thing never really worked out in the end, did it?
Anyway...
...maybe Gamezone should go the "STRONGLY INSPIRED BY..." route, and relaunch on, dare I say it, Kickstarter?
Joyboozer wrote: So, are we just going to end up with a rushed version of "heroquest" released by whoever actually own it, to take advantage of its sudden popularity?
I'd much prefer someone who actually gave a gak had control.
Nah, we'll get Moon Design's awesome HeroQuest board game in the Glorantha universe, complete with a paper mat and chit counters (to represent anthropomorphic ducks, of course) and an awkward dated ruleset (to retain the system's clunky flavor from the RPG)
We want to comunicate our decision of stoping the campaign were you had pledged: ‘Heroquest 25th Anniversary’
The urge to publish the project by the authors today sunday 8 at 1 am has precipitated it’s publication without being able, the team of verkami, to spend the right time to review the project.
After carefully studying the campaign, we believe that the content of the project could be misleading to our users.
Your pledges will be cancelled so no charges will be made in your card or PayPal account.
We thank you for your trust, and we want to apologize for any inconvenience our handling of the project might have caused.
Verkami team
So Moon Design had nothing to do with this being shut down, it was all Verkami's doing. Man, what a train wreck...
Maybe Verkami should have consulted with the Dakka posters who assure everyone there's nothing misleading at all here . Okay, cheap shot, sorry... But that's another company passing up their share of the profits in order to not be involved with this.
At this point, "HQ25" is having serious trouble, but as judgedoug says, making HQ compatible parts would avoid all issues and any possibility of confusion / misleading backers (Verkami's term). Heck, I'd even back that now. Hopefully they think things through a little more next time... Something like that would be much better for everybody at this point, imo. Or at least, much more likely to be able to be run as a campaign for more than a few days
I'm certain in a lawless world I could beat up Donald Trump and steal his stuff, so I stand by original statement.
Yeah, that whole 'civilization' thing never really worked out in the end, did it?
Anyway...
...maybe Gamezone should go the "STRONGLY INSPIRED BY..." route, and relaunch on, dare I say it, Kickstarter?
Haha that's awesome! . I think it worked out pretty well for Donald Trump evidently! Is this really the end though? Is the civilization process now complete?. In the grand game of err... Civilization (tm). Are we just one Starbucks away from achieving the coffee-house critical mass victory condition. One day we just all wake up to the words 'A winner is you!' printed across the sky, before the universe is reset, and we are replaced with an 8-bit high score table. The word AAA_ being the only lasting testament to how badly we 'pwned' dolphins.
On topic... I was also curious as to why the '#4 change the name' option was not considered. There have been loads of games that had their names changed because of IP issues, and they went on to be very popular. Wasn't Space Crusade supposed to be Star Quest?. They should have called it Hero Crusade 25th to keep with tradition!
I wonder how many people would really have been turned off by it loosing its pedigree? They could even have blamed the whole thing on Moon Design, and reaped all the free Hero Quest publicity and come out shining. Though it seems too little too late now.
I admit it would be a shame to see the nice logo go to waste, but it's better than the whole project folding. I was also really hoping that the remaining 20% missing from the box art was orthodontic work for the barbarian. Every time I look at him I think about Peter Pettigrew on steroids.
Alpharius wrote: I'm beginning (!) to see why you might have problems down there in that oh so problematic section of Dakka Dakka!
Anyway - what a gut punch for GZ this all turned out to be!
They go from 500K in a few days and on their way to at least a couple of million to... this?!?
A bit more up front work and making sure of things, and they would have really been set up nicely for years to come.
Not to mention the fact that they've already sunk a fair bit of money into the project (not to mention time) - you have to worry how much this eats into the rainy day fund of a fairly niche company.
Hero Crusade actually is a pretty cool title. Could have a grimdark world overrun by monsters and only being held back by a generation of heroes born for the purpose. You take a band of such heroes as they heroquest and slowly eat away at the monstrous hordes and the evil villains who lead them.
Just having a quick look around for further information now most of this has come through google translate (French and Spanish) but the jist of it is there.
It seems that this will not be returning to Verkami. Verkami are not satisfied with the work GZ have done to date and require a more developed prototype and more time (another 10 days or so) to analyse the project before they might let it proceed. This seems to be where the "misleading" part of Verkami's statement came from. They are also concerned with how the KS ended and any reputational damage they themselves might suffer if it proceeds and then crash and burns later.
GZ are looking for another European based crowd funding platform to host this ASAP as in today or tomorrow.
There seems be a serious desparation by GZ to get this going and funded makes me wonder why they have to do it right now, why not go off spend a month or so sorting everything then relaunch with all the i's dotted and t's crossed would a months delay really prevent them from launching next December. Seriously who will back this now if 2 crowd funding platforms have already dropped it.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I'd suspect they've put enough time/money in that not to successfully fund in the next month or two may well sink the company
Agreed, or it will at least put them in dire straits. Gamezone is a small niche company and they've invested a lot in this Kickstarter. I hope they realize that if the Heroquest thing isn't going to work out for them, they should at least release components of it (eg, the monsters they've sculpted) in order to break even or make a small profit on this ordeal.
If nothing else, I think they can still email from the Kickstarter which may get a bit of a bump.
Some Spanish posters here earlier also seemed to think GameZone is a bit on the ropes financially. I'm sure they'll get some backers no matter how they run this... Defiance raised 50k with almost no credibility, and obviously GameZone has a much better reputation than them. But clearly this particular project of theirs is a bit of a question, at least as far as the crowdfunding sites are concerned.
DaveC wrote: GameZone misleading .... Shock and horror!
It's done finished they've messed this up so badly now I found it interesting that nearly all the Verkami backers last night seemed to be Spanish based going off the shipping destinations selected International backers staying away.
Hasbro and GW don't need to do anything GZ is more than capable of getting their own project shut down by themselves.
Well, to be fair, we don't know if they were torpedoed again by MD on the QT. There was a rather unsubtle threat that they had been selling their Heroquest RPG in Spain...
RiTides wrote: But that's another company passing up their share of the profits in order to not be involved with this.
You misspelled "litigation".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Smacks wrote: I was also curious as to why the '#4 change the name' option was not considered.
Money. You know there are plenty of dungeoncrawlers out there, but how many can you name that are made by one-man shops -- or were KS projects?
Half a million CAD in three days is a *lot* of money.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
decker_cky wrote: Not to mention the fact that they've already sunk a fair bit of money into the project (not to mention time) - you have to worry how much this eats into the rainy day fund of a fairly niche company.
IIRC, They only showed renders.
Quote from Madadventures.com: "A Spanish website published an interview with GameZone (which was roughly translated on this thread on BoardGameGeek) in which they said that they do not have any agreement with Hasbro to produce the game, even the Spanish division of Hasbro. This is a dramatic turn from what they had said in their previous statements, indicating that GameZone may be flip-flopping. Additionally, the interview also noted that GameZone believes that they do not need a trademark or agreement with Hasbro to produce a 25th Anniversary Edition of HeroQuest, as they believe a commemorative edition does not borrow from the previous intellectual property (IP). "
decker_cky wrote: Not to mention the fact that they've already sunk a fair bit of money into the project (not to mention time) - you have to worry how much this eats into the rainy day fund of a fairly niche company.
IIRC, They only showed renders.
If you can point me to a free digital sculptor that does that level of quality, I'd love to see it.
If you can point me to a free digital sculptor that does that level of quality, I'd love to see it.
RENDERS is an investment. 3D artists who make models which can be printed and cast takes skill, and they can make hundreds of dollars per render at the low end. So if they had renders for 15 heroes and 20+ monsters and so on, that could have been thousands of dollars already paid to a professional artist.
I have seen renders made, but a company fail to produce them and then the renders find themselves to another model producer. So it is not unheard of for these to find their way to another producer if GZ needs to salvage some money if this project dies.
Nothing new in the article aside from some further confusing of issues:
Looking at their site, one can see various factions like Dwarves and Elves, however they also have a faction called “Chaos”. This again seems another case of being rather close to the Chaos faction miniatures that are produced as part of the Warhammer fantasy world by Games Workshop. I am not sure what GameZone’s company policies and mission are, but it would seem that they may be rather ignorant (or simply do not care) about the concept of Intellectual Property.
Ignorant comment about intellectual property that accuses a company of being ignorant about the concept of intellectual property. Good stuff.
Nothing new in the article aside from some further confusing of issues:
Looking at their site, one can see various factions like Dwarves and Elves, however they also have a faction called “Chaos”. This again seems another case of being rather close to the Chaos faction miniatures that are produced as part of the Warhammer fantasy world by Games Workshop. I am not sure what GameZone’s company policies and mission are, but it would seem that they may be rather ignorant (or simply do not care) about the concept of Intellectual Property.
Ignorant comment about intellectual property that accuses a company of being ignorant about the concept of intellectual property. Good stuff.
How dare they use Michael Moorcock's--err... Games Workshop's... yeah... concept of Chaos!
Nothing new in the article aside from some further confusing of issues:
Looking at their site, one can see various factions like Dwarves and Elves, however they also have a faction called “Chaos”. This again seems another case of being rather close to the Chaos faction miniatures that are produced as part of the Warhammer fantasy world by Games Workshop. I am not sure what GameZone’s company policies and mission are, but it would seem that they may be rather ignorant (or simply do not care) about the concept of Intellectual Property.
Ignorant comment about intellectual property that accuses a company of being ignorant about the concept of intellectual property. Good stuff.
How dare they use Michael Moorcock's--err... Games Workshop's... yeah... concept of Chaos!
And, ironically, RuneQuest, the game that used to be Glorantha's system, which had Chaos before GW even existed....
Even Ral Partha had Chaos warriors before GW....
But then... we are talking about a company that has tried to claim 'fur', 'Roman numerals', 'halberds', 'skulls', 'Space Marines', and 'grenade launchers' as IP... so it is not beyond the scope of reality for GW to try and do something daft.
Something to bear in mind - MD has a TM on the RPG[/] HeroQuest - not a board game. Cutting close, I will admit, but I think that MD is relying more on the matter [i]not making it to court, rather than thinking that it is as clean cut as they are presenting.
International IP law is a tangled mess - and with this we have Spain, the US, and the UK all with fingers in the pie.
I cannot fault Kickstarter - they really have no reason to care who is right or who is wrong, they don't want to be named as a party in any lawsuit that follows.
Verkami... harder to say - they may just want to be left out of this as well.
I think, however, that it is very unlikely that there would be any confusion between a very good board game and a really crappy RPG. (Not a fan of HeroQuest - I own a copy, read it through, and wished that I had not spent the money on it - the game was an enormous let down after the excellent RuneQuest RPG. Or after the very good HeroQuest boardgame, for that matter.)
At this point, rebranding the game seems the only viable option for Gamezone - which is a shame.
DungeonQuest is already used, AdventureQuest is used, Heroes' Journey, perhaps?
The Auld Grump - I will say that I will never buy anything from Moon Design at this point, I may like Glorantha, and the Glorantha book may be systemless... but I will not put money into Stafford's pocket.
Joyboozer wrote: So, are we just going to end up with a rushed version of "heroquest" released by whoever actually own it, to take advantage of its sudden popularity?
I'd much prefer someone who actually gave a gak had control.
Nah, we'll get Moon Design's awesome HeroQuest board game in the Glorantha universe, complete with a paper mat and chit counters (to represent anthropomorphic ducks, of course) and an awkward dated ruleset (to retain the system's clunky flavor from the RPG)
Or, to put it another way...
You could say that. Of course, you could also say that Runequest hasn't been relevant since Nineteen Eighty NEVER. Seriously, the only reason people are even referencing Gloran-fething-whatever is because it managed to leech itself on something that people give two farts about. Aside from two dudes living in Moon Design's mom's basement, no one cares about ducks, broos or any of their other stupid crap.
Nothing new in the article aside from some further confusing of issues:
Looking at their site, one can see various factions like Dwarves and Elves, however they also have a faction called “Chaos”. This again seems another case of being rather close to the Chaos faction miniatures that are produced as part of the Warhammer fantasy world by Games Workshop. I am not sure what GameZone’s company policies and mission are, but it would seem that they may be rather ignorant (or simply do not care) about the concept of Intellectual Property.
Ignorant comment about intellectual property that accuses a company of being ignorant about the concept of intellectual property. Good stuff.
How dare they use Michael Moorcock's--err... Games Workshop's... yeah... concept of Chaos!
And, ironically, RuneQuest, the game that used to be Glorantha's system, which had Chaos before GW even existed....
Even Ral Partha had Chaos warriors before GW..../quote]
My first D&D character (who was an elf. that's, right suckas, race and class all in one!) was Chaotic.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: You could say that. Of course, you could also say that Runequest hasn't been relevant since Nineteen Eighty NEVER. Seriously, the only reason people are even referencing Gloran-fething-whatever is because it managed to leech itself on something that people give two farts about. Aside from two dudes living in Moon Design's mom's basement, no one cares about ducks, broos or any of their other stupid crap.
I could attempt to set you right, but I lack the fortitude, you the capacity for self-reflection, and the Universe sufficient lifespan in which to achieve such a miracle.
Glorantha is one of the few fantasy settings to be really fully realised, again, alongside Middle-Earth and Tekumel.
And it's fully realised in a different way to those. Middle-Earth and Tekumel were created by guys who were linguists first and historians second, so that those details really stand out in making them living, breathing worlds.
Glorantha's creator has more of an anthropological and shamanic background, making the culture and spiritual life of Glorantha far, far richer than either of the other settings, IMO (and I speak as a big fan of Tekumel).
It's a shame it never really took off, but the reason it never really took off is the same reason that EastEnders is more popular than opera, or Budweiser is more popular than Balvenie. Mass-market entertainment is easy to access, relatively speaking. Art is inherently harder to appreciate and understand. It requires effort, and commitment -- a willingness to spend time and mental resources to fully understand it, let alone appreciate it.
You could say that. Of course, you could also say that Runequest hasn't been relevant since Nineteen Eighty NEVER. Seriously, the only reason people are even referencing Gloran-fething-whatever is because it managed to leech itself on something that people give two farts about. Aside from two dudes living in Moon Design's mom's basement, no one cares about ducks, broos or any of their other stupid crap.
Uh..... no. I'm not a fan of the various bs around this KS, but Runequest has had a massive, massive influence on so much of what came afterwards, not least of which is early GW/Warhammer...
I've not had issue with Runequest, Glorantha, or Heroquest as a Boardgame.
It was the gigantic gakfest that this project turned into... Like I feared was going to happen in the beginning.
At least it was shut down early enough to not fleece people out of thier million and a half and say "Sorry about that....".
Runequest had a small audience back in the day, no reason to pee on present fans of that games shoes on this matter. This was just one of those great Idea fairies loosing its wings.
Heroic Hero's Quest would have been a great game idea to pick up with the quality that the figures have.
Joyboozer wrote: So, are we just going to end up with a rushed version of "heroquest" released by whoever actually own it, to take advantage of its sudden popularity?
I'd much prefer someone who actually gave a gak had control.
Nah, we'll get Moon Design's awesome HeroQuest board game in the Glorantha universe, complete with a paper mat and chit counters (to represent anthropomorphic ducks, of course) and an awkward dated ruleset (to retain the system's clunky flavor from the RPG)
Or, to put it another way...
You could say that. Of course, you could also say that Runequest hasn't been relevant since Nineteen Eighty NEVER. Seriously, the only reason people are even referencing Gloran-fething-whatever is because it managed to leech itself on something that people give two farts about. Aside from two dudes living in Moon Design's mom's basement, no one cares about ducks, broos or any of their other stupid crap.
I'm sure the fans of Runequest - and there are more of them than you imagine - would feel the same way about the thing that you want. Personally, I don't care. I just find it fun to read the one-sided posts like yours.
I don't know if you already know this or not, but Hero Cults was an actual game. During the 80's and early 90's a Spanish brand called Falomir would just copy famous games and sell them dirt cheap. They also did it with Trivial Pursuit, for example. Their version was called Trivio. Awful games, gold facebook page
Ian Sturrock wrote: Yeah, I still own GW's hardcover editions of RuneQuest. Good books those, and way cheaper than buying the Avalon Hill version.
Best edition of the game in its entire history. Much better than the Mongoose editions. (And infinitely better than HeroQuest the RPG.)
From the days when a GW reviewer could complain about another company's prices without a hint of irony....
The Auld Grump - I also have the GW Call of Cthulhu....
The first Mongoose release was indeed a pile of crap. The second \mongoose one however was massively better, and has led to the current, 6th edition. Its well worth a look, and has a fantastic combat system.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Yeah, I still own GW's hardcover editions of RuneQuest. Good books those, and way cheaper than buying the Avalon Hill version.
Best edition of the game in its entire history. Much better than the Mongoose editions. (And infinitely better than HeroQuest the RPG.)
From the days when a GW reviewer could complain about another company's prices without a hint of irony....
The Auld Grump - I also have the GW Call of Cthulhu....
The first Mongoose release was indeed a pile of crap. The second \mongoose one however was massively better, and has led to the current, 6th edition. Its well worth a look, and has a fantastic combat system.
Mind you, I say MRQ1 was crap, it got used as the base for the cleaned up and slimmed down OpenQuest, which I think, really captures the old 2nd/3rd edition feel. By d101 Games, maybe look it up, Auld Grumpy? :-)
Ian Sturrock wrote: Yeah, I still own GW's hardcover editions of RuneQuest. Good books those, and way cheaper than buying the Avalon Hill version.
Best edition of the game in its entire history. Much better than the Mongoose editions. (And infinitely better than HeroQuest the RPG.)
From the days when a GW reviewer could complain about another company's prices without a hint of irony....
The Auld Grump - I also have the GW Call of Cthulhu....
The first Mongoose release was indeed a pile of crap. The second \mongoose one however was massively better, and has led to the current, 6th edition. Its well worth a look, and has a fantastic combat system.
Mind you, I say MRQ1 was crap, it got used as the base for the cleaned up and slimmed down OpenQuest, which I think, really captures the old 2nd/3rd edition feel. By d101 Games, maybe look it up, Auld Grumpy? :-)
I just have - and they still do no have the feature of BRP that I liked best: the very organic experience system. Looks good otherwise, if maybe a bit too streamlined for my tastes. (And I do mean just now - I have not yet had time for a complete perusal, and my opinion may change - thank you for the heads up! I will admit that the experience system was the first thing that I flipped to....)
Magic... is better than in the first Mongoose RQ, but not as good as either 2nd or third real RuneQuest.
Mind you, Chaosium held onto the BRP system, so Mongoose couldn't use it... but what they came up with just was not elegant. I mean, really? Pick three skills to see if they go up? And they don't have to be skills that the PCactually used?! No sir, didn't like it.
Then the OGL/No OGL dance between first and second of the Mongoose editions (or why I never bothered at all with the 2nd version - having an OGL was the only saving grace that the first version had).
While you're at it, ignore Kickstarter, Vekami, and anyone else who is "in on it" ...!
Or just acknowledge that they didn't have ask their ducks in a row to launch this, and be glad this all happened before the money was withdrawn... Maybe they'll get it together for a future launch. They were warned not to proceed and did anyway... to ignore that is a little misguided, I think. Both parties are at fault but this had plenty of warning for GameZone to know it was coming, and it is pretty important that they didn't let backers know about it at all.
They're really no better than a patent troll at this point. I'm all for ignoring them should they decided to launch their own kickstarter.
How can you be a patent troll if you're actually releasing a real game by the name? I know RQ/Glorantha isn't well know, but it's been around forever and the Heroquest version of things has been out around a decade. These guys aren't sitting on the rights doing nothing.
TheAuldGrump wrote: just have - and they still do no have the feature of BRP that I liked best: the very organic experience system. Looks good otherwise, if maybe a bit too streamlined for my tastes. (And I do mean just now - I have not yet had time for a complete perusal, and my opinion may change - thank you for the heads up! I will admit that the experience system was the first thing that I flipped to....)
Magic... is better than in the first Mongoose RQ, but not as good as either 2nd or third real RuneQuest.
Mind you, Chaosium held onto the BRP system, so Mongoose couldn't use it... but what they came up with just was not elegant. I mean, really? Pick three skills to see if they go up? And they don't have to be skills that the PCactually used?! No sir, didn't like it.
Then the OGL/No OGL dance between first and second of the Mongoose editions (or why I never bothered at all with the 2nd version - having an OGL was the only saving grace that the first version had).
Grrr..... Snarrlll....
Ah well... now I have Moon Design to ignore.
The Auld Grump
I appreciate your fondness for the BRP experience system - it really stands alone as a truly organic improvement system. But as you say, neither Mongoose, nor at that point, Greg Stafford had rights to BRP so any syatem designed for RuneQuest had to be different enough to not breach their copyright (Oh, look, its that issue again! ). Adopting a different experience system and dumping the famous (infamous to some) Resistance Table, 2 highly characteristic features of BRP accomplished that.
Both OQ and MRQ2/RQ6 kind of get round the 3 increase limit in the same way - conflating combat skills right down. OQ covers all combat skills into 3: Unarmed, Melee, Ranged. All attacks and parries use just the appropriate from those 3, plus the Dodge if desired. This reduction means those 3 increases can actually be spent on other skills without disadvantaging a character in combat. MRQ2/RQ6 (particularly opened up in RQ6) introduce Weapon Styles - 1 skill that covers a coherent group of weapons which would be trained in together, eg Roman Legionary would be Javelin, Spear, Gladius, Tower Shield. Again, leaving some experience rolls free for other stuff.
So yes, no more truly organic experience system, but some interesting ideas all the same.
Oh, and RQ6 really nails shamanic magic - it is a thing of beauty, and I suspect one of the very few magic systems where the "spell list" is part of the creature chapter!
One of the things that I liked about Spirit Magic (as it was called in the first three iterations) was that it was ubiquitous - a peasant might well know two or three spells, to help him through daily life - Bladesharp was used on wood axes and plows as well as on weapons.
I think that calling the Mongoose game RuneQuest bothered me as much as the system - likely more. (On a similar note - I like True20 - which did not try to claim that it was 100% 3.5 SRD compatible. So it is not just that I do not like change.)
Really... I wanted a fourth edition of RuneQuest, not just some game with the same title. The name carried a certain expectation for me - and failed (in my opinion) to deliver.
I will grant that the game was closer to RuneQuest than 4e was to Dungeons and Dragons though.
And, yeah, I am one of those folks that liked the Resistance table.
I really need to look at the new Legend version of the rules - but I will admit that streamlining the weapon skills is not a selling point for me,
But, hey, the PDF of the basic rules is just a buck at RPGNow. I cannot argue with the price.
Stafford's HeroQuest on the other hand... well, let us say that my opinion of the game was not a good one before the dog in the manger routine with the boardgame.
It turns out that I do own a copy - and the fact that it was sitting in the bottom of a box, never to be used.... yeah.
I met the man, back in the early eighties... and he did not seem to be as bitter as he has come across over the last ten years or so. (Not just this incident - I think that he is just not a happy person, anymore.)
Back then I was impressed with meeting a real, honest to goodness game designer (even though I was working for an RPG company at the time... it doesn't count if they are people that you know).
Chaosium has had a rocky road - but I honestly think that Stafford would do better to join back up with them than he has been doing with Issarries and Moon Design.
And he needs to ditch HeroQuest. (Aside from the name - the game needs such a complete redesign that it would become a different game. I do not know why he has held on to that system for this long.)
Yeah - I think that I can cop to the title of 'bitter' as well....
The Auld Grump
*EDIT* Well, I looked at Legend, and specifically at the Spirit Magic rules... Not the same as that from RuneQuest - but not at all bad. More work on the GM in regards to what a Spirit can do (both for and against the PC). The influence of the older RuneQuest is actually much more noticeable in the Spirit Magic book than it was in the first Mongoose edition.
I still like RQ3 better - but Legend stands up okay on its own.
They're really no better than a patent troll at this point. I'm all for ignoring them should they decided to launch their own kickstarter.
How can you be a patent troll if you're actually releasing a real game by the name? I know RQ/Glorantha isn't well know, but it's been around forever and the Heroquest version of things has been out around a decade. These guys aren't sitting on the rights doing nothing.
I'm a little confused. Are you agreeing with the sentiment that Moon Design is "really no better than a patent troll" or aren't you?
When it comes to trademark trolling, on the surface Moon Design pretty well fits the pattern: Snap up a once popular mark that has been abandoned, do little with it, assert it against a successful company using the mark. But, there's a lot of subtext. Moon Design may well have not made a board game with the mark, but it was indeed using the mark, and Stafford had long intended to do so, apparently. Even so, one wonders about Moon Design's motivations. At least I still do. GameZone was asking for trouble and acting like an entitled cowboy, in my opinion, but Moon Design was aggressive for reasons I can't really fathom other than Stafford not wanting to see the same thing with the HeroQuest mark happen twice. But then it would have happened both times because he couldn't be arsed to get an actual product out.
It would be explicit trolling if someone had watched the Kickstarter make money, registered the mark, and then asserted it against GameZone.
Exactly (to your last sentence). Which they did not do. If they'd let the KS cash in, then come looking for a cut, they would fit that description. Instead, they shut it down, costing them time and money to do so. They're getting nothing out of this at the moment, just defending their trademark. Again, not the devil some of you seem to be imagining them to be.
RiTides wrote: Exactly (to your last sentence). Which they did not do. If they'd let the KS cash in, then come looking for a cut, they would fit that description. Instead, they shut it down, costing them time and money to do so. They're getting nothing out of this at the moment, just defending their trademark. Again, not the devil some of you seem to be imagining them to be.
And yet they defended their mark in an unnecessarily aggressive manner. I linked to this before, but I'll do so again. Do y'all remember the Jack Daniels C&D? Protecting a mark does not require a scorched earth policy. In fact, licensing the mark would have made it stronger than a complaint to Kickstarter, which nets nothing other than evidence that you have asserted the mark, not that anyone substantively recognizes the mark's value, validity, or scope.
If Moon Design had licensed the mark to GameZone, even temporarily, it would have been evidence that Moon Design's HeroQuest mark extends to board games, for example. Instead of strengthening its mark, Moon Design arguably weakened it by inviting someone to challenge it. There is a Class 28 HeroQuest registration in the works, let's not forget, which was precipitated by Moon Design's behavior.
Again, when you stop taking positions and consider your interests, it is possible to come up with solutions that make everyone happy, or at the very least protect everyone's interests rather than putting them at risk.
For example, GW should have just bought Chapterhouse Studios. Who cares how much it would have needed to pay to do so? 300K, 500K, 700K, 1 Million? Who cares so long as Chapterhouse took the offer. It probably galled GW to pay money to someone who they say stoleGW's property. But did the trial protect GW's interests or hurt the company? What if GW could have paid half of what the trial cost, got an admission of infringement from Chapterhouse Studios, and was able to publicly state that not only was Chapterhouse a proven infringer, but that the company is now out of business after GW asserted its rights? Would that have been money better spent?
For what it's worth, I agree with you weeble, on both this and the GW / Chapterhouse case. But you present an ideal world case (indeed, a case known as "the nicest C&D in history"!), and unfortunately companies often draw lines in the sand instead. When communication broke off in July or so, and the Kickstarter launched without an agreement in place, they had to take some action or have their mark weakened in a similar manner (not extending to board games) anyway.
RiTides wrote: For what it's worth, I agree with you weeble, on both this and the GW / Chapterhouse case. But you present an ideal world case (indeed, a case known as "the nicest C&D in history"!), and unfortunately companies often draw lines in the sand instead. When communication broke off in July or so, and the Kickstarter launched without an agreement in place, they had to take some action or have their mark weakened in a similar manner (not extending to board games) anyway.
Oh, I expect that there was hot blood. GameZone seems to think they were right, and Moon Design clearly thinks they are right too. It's just a shame it happened. GameZone has a product in development that people want, and Moon Design has a mark that Stafford waited a long time to get that he wants to be able to use.
I understand getting pissed off. I get mad pretty quickly, and I make a living off of angry people getting themselves into drawn out, expensive litigation. I think what good can come of this mess is tuning people in this industry into the risks and consequences of being adversarial. That and what RiTides as said already, the Kickstarter ended before a lot of people's money went into limbo.
The fantasy table-top miniatures industry is really small, but very important to a lot of folks, myself included. Being small, bad blood has a tendency to linger, but I think it also means that there is an opportunity for participants in the industry to form positive, productive relationships. Hopefully, when people have a problem (which will inevitably occur), they will be able to stop and take a breath before doing things they can't take back. If there's an extant positive relationship, I would hope that would give one incentive to take that breath.
I don't really know what we can do, as customers and enthusiasts, to helps these sorts of relationships to form. But at the very least, having productive public discussions when incidents like this happen helps to raise awareness.
For an interesting read within our hobby look up the Fantasy Flight vs. Stronghold Games, Merchant of Venus reprint.
To sumerise it both companies belived they had the rights to reprint the game. Fantasy Flight wanted to update and release the game, Stronghold just wanted to reprint it. Instead of fighting it out in court they worked together and came to an aggreement. Fantasy Flight got what they wanted, Stronghold got what they wanted and a bunch of community recognition and the gamer got both versions of the game in one box.
I'm a little confused. Are you agreeing with the sentiment that Moon Design is "really no better than a patent troll" or aren't you?
When it comes to trademark trolling, on the surface Moon Design pretty well fits the pattern: Snap up a once popular mark that has been abandoned, do little with it, assert it against a successful company using the mark. But, there's a lot of subtext. Moon Design may well have not made a board game with the mark, but it was indeed using the mark, and Stafford had long intended to do so, apparently. Even so, one wonders about Moon Design's motivations. At least I still do. GameZone was asking for trouble and acting like an entitled cowboy, in my opinion, but Moon Design was aggressive for reasons I can't really fathom other than Stafford not wanting to see the same thing with the HeroQuest mark happen twice. But then it would have happened both times because he couldn't be arsed to get an actual product out.
It would be explicit trolling if someone had watched the Kickstarter make money, registered the mark, and then asserted it against GameZone.
Dude, they have been doing something with it. Heroquest the RPG has been around nearly a decade. Setting stuff in Glorantha (dual release for RQ & HQ) is being put out currently. There's no wondering about motivations. This is no different than Square-Enix picking up the Dragon Quest trademark in the US after the old P&P RPG name was abandoned. The only difference is that the Dragon Quest video game series is much more high profile, and that isn't a meaningful one. The whole Heroquesting concept by that name has been a part of the Glorantha stuff since early on if not the beginning of published stuff back in the 70s. I liked the HQ boardgame too, but you have Gamezone trying to ninja something through IP issues and then people getting angry that parties that have some legal claims like Moon Designs, GW, and Milton-Bradley object. Unless you're of the opinion that once something popular comes out, that space is now forbidden for anyone else despite any abandonment issues, at which point I might suggest that you rethinking your position to something more in line with reality.
I do not consider Moon Design to be an IP troll - but I am irked with them over the way they are holding on to HeroQuest in this instance - the chance of the two IP being confused is nil.
I would have been annoyed with Hasbro or GW - and they have a better claim as to brand confusion. (But thanks to the tangled world of international IP less of a claim to the TM than MD.)
It sounds like MD is not looking to get money out of it - they just don't want another (almost certainly to be better known) game of the same title overshadowing their own title.
But given that the game is already being overshadowed in the RPG ocean by some very small fish... I do not see how having the boardgame leaves Moon Design in a worse position.
Heck, if they had required Gamezone to put in a notice of 'Used by the kind permission of' it would have gotten them more visibility. Instead....
*EDIT Or even required a little advertisement to be tucked into each box.
Someone earlier had the great idea of them working together by incorporating Glotanthan elements into the game design as a bit of a RQ cross-over. I imagine a few Broo (replacing the Fimir?) wouldn't have looked too out of place in that GW-centric design of the game, after all...
Azazelx wrote: Someone earlier had the great idea of them working together by incorporating Glotanthan elements into the game design as a bit of a RQ cross-over. I imagine a few Broo (replacing the Fimir?) wouldn't have looked too out of place in that GW-centric design of the game, after all...
Probably better not to include the most problematic monster in Glorantha in HQ. Then again, you could say the exact same thing about Fimir too.
Change the name? tweek the rules? if its a good game it could stand on it's own merits vs all this 25th "name brand" issue. if it was me and i had it ready to go and that many fans throwing money... they know what they are buying... move away from the name
Azazelx wrote: Someone earlier had the great idea of them working together by incorporating Glotanthan elements into the game design as a bit of a RQ cross-over.
That's like making fifty-fifty with the burglar in your house
Azazelx wrote: Problematic? Broo? They're the basis for the GW Beastman archetype that GW uses.
He might mean ethically problematic to a family audience. The Broo's means of reproducing and the Gods they worship are not exactly the most "safe for work", shall we say.
Incidentally, may I just remind the discussion that, according to both MD and GZ, what Moon Design asked for initially was a copy of a statement by Hasbro, saying that Gamezone had permission to make a new edition. The absence of that was why they disrupted the campaign. While GZ could make a game similar to the old HeroQuest, avoiding the protections of Copyright, as have others over the years, surely the risk of litigation would reappear once they take their clone and market it under the name of the original, without paying dues?
Moon Design were concerned that if they allowed the usage of their name in the US, they would be complicit in such an IP fraud, and would face the same charges when it was taken to court. That, at least,is my understanding of their reason to require to see the agreement, and to block the campaign when it launched.
Broo procreation need not appear in the game. Orc spawning pits don't and we still don't know about how GW orcs come to be, and its not necessarily the same as orks (for the planet would be totally overrun long ago if they were spore based).
I've also ...extensively studied human reproduction, including some enlightening video programmes - for science, of course. Pretty sure that never came up in the games I've played before.
By the way, you might also want to look into the background of the Fimir, including their means of reproduction...
) Some of the renders looked interesting though..
