HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition - Crowdfunding Shutdown yet again.

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**AlexHolker**

silent25 wrote:
@AlexHolker, GZ associating with upright and outstanding citizens I see.

To be fair, he could be acting on his own initiative and not in the service of one of the existing parties. After all, he is demonstrably scummy enough that other lawyers don't want anything to do with him and stupid enough to not get away with it.

**Triple9**

AlexHolker wrote:
silent25 wrote:
@AlexHolker, GZ associating with upright and outstanding citizens I see.

To be fair, he could be acting on his own initiative and not in the service of one of the existing parties. After all, he is demonstrably scummy enough that other lawyers don't want anything to do with him and stupid enough to not get away with it.

Look at the third page of the filing. It's pretty clear he's representing GZ's interest. I'm curious, he was disbarred 20 years ago in DC. Wonder if he's a member of the bar elsewhere still?

**TheAuldGrump**

Taarnak wrote:
RiTides wrote:
...despite not being connected to the original game in any way

Neither is Moon Design.

(As an aside, I know that the RuneQuest creator claimed that he originally wanted to use HeroQuest. But since he sat on his hands for nearly 30 years, that dog doesn't really hunt. HeroQuest as a TM worldwide will be associated far more with the Milton Bradley/GW game than it ever will be with RuneQuest/Glorantha (sp?).)

So, honestly curious: Why does Moon Design's TM deserve primary consideration?

As I stated before, this whole affair smacks of Trademark-trolling of the highest order. With Hasbro being used as the leverage/threat.

~Eric

Not the highest order - more of an opportunistic money grab.

I do know that I am never going to purchase anything from Moon Design... which differs from before this Kickstarter mess in no functional way.

I love Glorantha, and have hated the Glorantha based HeroQuest since I first looked at it - it is just not a good system (I also loved the old 1st, 2nd, and 3rd editions of RuneQuest. HeroQuest was being compared to an excellent system, and was only mediocre, in my jaundiced opinion. It's only real crime was in not being half as good as the system that it replaced.)

My actual suspicion as to motive is that Moon Design is not dong any better than Issarries did - Stafford kind of needs the money, and is willing to use extortion to get it.

*Shrug* There are worse reasons to try to abuse the law to your own benefit, I suppose.

The Auld Grump

**AlexHolker**

Triple9 wrote:
Look at the third page of the filing. It's pretty clear he's representing GZ's interest. I'm curious, he was disbarred 20 years ago in DC. Wonder if he's a member of the bar elsewhere still?

Ah, thanks. I didn't notice the second attachment.

**Psychman**

TheAuldGrump wrote:
Taarnak wrote:
RiTides wrote:
...despite not being connected to the original game in any way

Neither is Moon Design.

(As an aside, I know that the RuneQuest creator claimed that he originally wanted to use HeroQuest. But since he sat on his hands for nearly 30 years, that dog doesn't really hunt. HeroQuest as a TM worldwide will be associated far more with the Milton Bradley/GW game than it ever will be with RuneQuest/Glorantha (sp?).)

So, honestly curious: Why does Moon Design's TM deserve primary consideration?

As I stated before, this whole affair smacks of Trademark-trolling of the highest order. With Hasbro being used as the leverage/threat.

~Eric
Not the highest order - more of an opportunistic money grab.

I do know that I am never going to purchase anything from Moon Design... which differs from before this Kickstarter mess in no functional way.

I love Glorantha, and have hated the Glorantha based HeroQuest since I first looked at it - it is just not a good system (I also loved the old 1st, 2nd, and 3rd editions of RuneQuest. HeroQuest was being compared to an excellent system, and was only mediocre, in my jaundiced opinion. It's only real crime was in not being half as good as the system that it replaced.)

My actual suspicion as to motive is that Moon Design is not dong any better than Issarries did - Stafford kind of needs the money, and is willing to use extortion to get it.

*Shrug* There are worse reasons to try to abuse the law to your own benefit, I suppose.

The Auld Grump

Fair enough about not liking the HeroQuest system, it's not to everyone's taste. There is a new RuneQuest edition that they have licensed out so take a look if you miss it http://www.thedesignmechanism.com/ . Financially though I suspect they're doing ok, after all this did rather well: http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/224590870/the-guide-to-glorantha/

So I'm not sure its fair to bandy round words like "extortion"

**adhuin**

Psychman wrote:

Fair enough about not liking the HeroQuest system, it's not to everyone's taste. There is a new RuneQuest edition that they have licensed out so take a look if you miss it http://www.thedesignmechanism.com/ . Financially though I suspect they're doing ok, after all this did rather well: http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/224590870/the-guide-to-glorantha/

So I'm not sure its fair to bandy round words like "extortion"

That looks awesome & I regret on not pledging on that. The books are gamesystem independent and the lore parts were always better part than the actual mechanics in RQ.
On other half, they still haven't finished & shipped their products, so they might get heavily hit by the same Postage cost hikes that Original Reaper Bones 1-kickstarter suffered from.

**judgedoug**

Wait... so if the class 28 trademark goes through, is it completely possible for Gamezone to relaunch the Kickstarter and proudly proclaim they are the owners of the HeroQuest trademark for boardgames? Weeble?

**RiTides**

That's not what they're doing, though:

After this communiqué is sent out we will proceed to ask KS to cancel the project on their platform. After this is done we will immediately restart and continue the HQ25 project.

...

We understand that KS has a larger public base than any other crowed funding platform today; we understand that moving the project to another site will mean that out backer support will decrease. However we are ready and willing to continue this campaign in a place that will offer us the correct guaranties for our trademark. We would prefer to raise fewer funds and still move forward with and produce it in time for the 25th anniversary.

We await your support and enthusiasm in this renewed crowed funding campaign.

From here: http://www.heroquestclassic.com/update-about-ks-pause/

**judgedoug**

Ah, so they're probably attempting to secure the class 28 trademark for legal distribution in the USA under the HeroQuest name.

**Alabaster.clown**

Screw KS, screw Moon Designs, and quite frankly screw anyone not willing to back HQ25 on any platform other than KS!
I'm going to get multiple copies and then stick them on eBay. There is more than enough demand to fund my pledge threefold, and i am going to laugh thusly : Mwahahahaha!

**Agamemnon2**

If you ever get the actual products, which given the rumors of GZ's status, should be in doubt.

In fact, I will gladly make a prophecy here, and leave myself a "told you so" card that I can cash in at a later date, that HQ25 will have one or more serious delays, problems, translation issues or just plain unsatisfying results that will cause people to throw hissy fits at a later date. The writing on the wall is clear for all with eyes to see, and who have not been blinded by the side issue of the IP being in doubt.

**Pacific**

Project is 'cancelled' in its current KS form, although from the sound of it this project will live on in one form or another.

Dear Backers

Last Friday we were surprised by the pause placed on our kickstarter Project of HQ25. We wrote a communiqué to you, which was also posted on our site heroquestclassic.com. In our letter we tried to communicate to you in the clearest fashion what was happening and as well to share with you all, our petition to kickstarter to have the project reopened. To do all of this publicly was to us the correct way for you as our backers to be informed of the situation and the most correct and transparent way to communicate with you as well, as our backers you have the right to know what was going on with this project.

We have done what you have ask for, we have waited in silence for KS’ answer. It has arrived. KS would prefer to keep the project on hold and wait for us to come to an agreement with third part.

The KS answer can be seen at our site.

KS’ position does not agree with as at all. The situation produced by the pause of the project has been harmful.

We do not feel that our legitimate rights over the Trademark have been protected and above all we do not wish to do business with third part under threats or duress of any sort. As a result we are proceeding to solicit KS to cancel our project on their platform.

Is this the end of HQ25? Of course not! Keep reading!

We accept the all of the respectful critics that has come our way because we learn from these things and if someone thinks differently they are free to express those opinions. What we do not accept is the disinformation y distortions that have been happening during the project's pause on KS in which we have remained silent and waited.

During these past few days our creative design crew has still been working on the development of various components, the same as always, the idea being to not lose any energy with this controversy.

The thirteen on the gallows, as we have fondly started calling the 13 professionals that are implicated in the creation of the project, have as a priority the development of this commemorative game.

We are truly more worried about you, the backers. We want thank you for the messages of support that have been rolling in. The public reaction to the news of a new edition of this classic provided undeniable and sincere joy to many. We will hold onto this as the rout to follow.

After this communiqué is sent out we will proceed to ask KS to cancel the project on their platform. After this is done we will immediately restart and continue the HQ25 project. More info at heroquestclassic.com tomorrow. Therefore the HQ25 project will return to active status. We will move from victims to survivors and conquer as we go.

We understand that KS has a larger public base than any other crowed funding platform today; we understand that moving the project to another site will mean that out backer support will decrease. However we are ready and willing to continue this campaign in a place that will offer us the correct guaranties for our trademark. We would prefer to raise fewer funds and still move forward with and produce it in time for the 25th anniversary.

We await your support and enthusiasm in this renewed crowed funding campaign.

Again, we would like to thank our backers from the bottom of our hearts, please do not regret supporting us. Let us all together get this back on track and make this dream a reality.

Gamezone

Poor luck for the fans who just wanted some nice miniatures, and to re-invoke the experience of playing a game that so many of enjoyed when younger, and really it's going to be them that are the losers here.

'Men in suits' may make keep the modern world turning, but at the same time they're also the worst fething thing about anything to do with art or creativity.

**Psychman**

Hey folks, there's plenty of other Dungeon Crawl games out there inspired by HeroQuest.

Here's a recently successfully backed Kickstarter for one: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/140519/myth

Or you could find something from this list: http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/923/the-definitive-dungeoncrawl-geeklist/page/1?
or this list: http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/165470/boardgames-expansions-that-contain-fantasy-25mm-3

But personally? http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1634/warhammer-quest That's the one I want to see rereleased. No complicated multiple-company rights confusions there. GW should do a special rerelease in the same vein as Space Hulk of this beauty, and we'd all be happy.

<edit> Or maybe combine it with this: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1758/advanced-heroquest

**Aeneades**

For those that don't mind there dungeon crawlers to have a western / supernatural / pulp scifi theme then Shadows of Brimstone are working on a warhammer quest like game which should be hitting retail next autumn (kickstarter finished for it last month).

GZ should just relaunch as a preorder on there own website with a ticker showing total backing figures and announcing stretch goals as they reach them.

**weeble1000**

silent25 wrote:
A new challenger enters the ring!

http://tsdr.uspto.gov/documentviewer?caseId=sn86131779&docId=SPE20131203061844#docIndex=1&page=1

This could get interesting. No clue who William Cabell is. Don't know if he is representing GameZone, Moon Design or money grubber taking advantage of the situation.

*edit* People on BGG are stating he is registering the trademark on behalf of GameZone.

Well, DM could continue to try to challenge GZ, but at this point GZ in the clear.

I really hope that I am in no way responsible for this. I had hoped that the important part of my take on the whole situation was that everyone should calm down, shake hands, have a cup of coffee in one of the many fine Spanish cafes, and come to an amiable resolution without murdering each other or bringing in the lawyers.

This quote from Other People's Money is apropos:

"Lawrence Garfield: They're like nuclear warheads. They have theirs, so I have mine. Once you use them, they feth up everything."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

judgedoug wrote:
Wait... so if the class 28 trademark goes through, is it completely possible for Gamezone to relaunch the Kickstarter and proudly proclaim they are the owners of the HeroQuest trademark for boardgames? Weeble?

I aint got no idea. The USPTO will likely register the mark, but Moon Design may attempt to block it or something. I'm not very hot on the trademark registration process, but the USPTO generally allows the courts to square away conflicts. I know plenty about patents on the prosecution perspective, not so much on trademarks. All I knew was that most board games are registered in Class 28 or Class 28 and Class 16.

This situation has now gone off the deep end where it need not have gone. Too many folks acting before thinking things through.

I really want to see Kickstarter's reasoning. Can someone post that? The project update posted did not have a working link.

Here it is. This does not indicate the content of Moon Design's communications with Kickstarter, although Kickstarter did not make reference to any copyright violations or complaints.

When it comes to the question of tortious interference, it all depends on what Moon Design communicated to Kickstarter. Clearly, Moon Design interfered with GameZone's ability to establish business relationships and ability to maintain existing business relationships. Was that interference tortious? That would require, so far as I am aware (and IANAL) an attempt to mislead or deceive on the part of Moon Design. Given Moon Design's communications with GameZone that I have seen, if Moon Design's communication with Kickstarter was in any way similar, I think there could be a colorable argument for tortious interference. If Moon Design could be said to have mislead Kickstarter into thinking that it had some sort of right in the '89 HeroQuest game, or that it was acting on behalf of Hasbro or Games Workshop, or even that Moon Design unnecessarily brought up the rights of Games Workshop and/or Hasbro, that could have affected Kickstarter's decision to suspend the project.

Kickstarter probably has itself protected from liability with its terms of use/trademark policies, though I don't really know. In any case, that's what I meant when it comes to tortious interference; not that Moon Design does not have the right to refuse to license its mark based on the rights of a third party (Moon Design can refuse to licence on any basis), but that if Moon Design went any farther than asserting its rights to its HeroQuest mark, that could open the door to risk, which given the success of the GameZone project would be both substantial and likely beyond Moon Design's ability to survive.

Given even the potential for a risk like that, Moon Design is pretty ballsy to be lecturing GameZone, was my point. If a suit was filed along those lines, much would depend on testimony from Kickster's representative.

At the end of the day, wouldn't it have been nicer if all of this could have been squared away before the Kickstarter was launched?

**Azazelx**

Agamemnon2 wrote:
If you ever get the actual products, which given the rumors of GZ's status, should be in doubt.

In fact, I will gladly make a prophecy here, and leave myself a "told you so" card that I can cash in at a later date, that HQ25 will have one or more serious delays, problems, translation issues or just plain unsatisfying results that will cause people to throw hissy fits at a later date.

That stuff would hardly be unique to Gamezone or HeroQuest. Heard of Sedition Wars? Zombicide S2? Relic Knights? Dreamforge Games Leviathan Project? Red Box Games Hellsvakt Horde? Secret Weapon Tablescapes? Trollforged Assimilation Alien Host? Cthulhu Wars? and on and on and on..... In fact "serious delays" is now taken to be a given for any KS project, and it's a surprise when one doesn't have them. Of course, that doesn't stop the project creators for new projects telling us that their project really, truly will be on time...

But yeah - your "told you so" card is sadly worth less than nothing in the context of crowdfunding and the results in those categories.

**AlexHolker**

weeble1000 wrote:
I aint got no idea. The USPTO will likely register the mark, but Moon Design may attempt to block it or something. I'm not very hot on the trademark registration process, but the USPTO generally allows the courts to square away conflicts. I know plenty about patents on the prosecution perspective, not so much on trademarks. All I knew was that most board games are registered in Class 28 or Class 28 and Class 16.

The USPTO would be wrong to register this trademark. It would be like allowing someone to trademark "Hamlet" as the title of a play, when the sole reason for seeking the trademark is for its association with someone else's work.

**Azazelx**

So anyway, have we heard any more on the issues people were having being charged by Gamezone for "shipping" after using the shipping calculator for the Heroquest KS project? (as reported on BGG?)

**weeble1000**

AlexHolker wrote:
weeble1000 wrote:
I aint got no idea. The USPTO will likely register the mark, but Moon Design may attempt to block it or something. I'm not very hot on the trademark registration process, but the USPTO generally allows the courts to square away conflicts. I know plenty about patents on the prosecution perspective, not so much on trademarks. All I knew was that most board games are registered in Class 28 or Class 28 and Class 16.

The USPTO would be wrong to register this trademark. It would be like allowing someone to trademark "Hamlet" as the title of a play, when the sole reason for seeking the trademark is for its association with someone else's work.

Dude, have you seen what the USPTO registers?

**RiTides**

You probably are responsible, weeble. Take it for what it's worth

**weeble1000**

RiTides wrote:
You probably are responsible, weeble. Take it for what it's worth

Lol, yea, it's probably all me

. In any case, it would be a shame if the various discussions about all of this spurred some kind of escalation.

Who is this William Cabell? I assume this is the guy. And also this. But there's also this on Martindale. And then there's this case.

AVVO lists his interim suspension in 1992, which roughly coincides with that last case in which W.H.C. Venable was a party. Then he's at least practicing law again by 1998, as evidenced by the PAF inc v Bank of America case.

**AlexHolker**

weeble1000 wrote:
Dude, have you seen what the USPTO registers?

Yes, I have. One example being a patent for a technology that I was able to invent independently in about thirty seconds - namely, synchronising the input of a video camera and the output of a screen to film the objects sitting on the screen but not the image being displayed. But being stupid in the past is no excuse for being stupid in the future.

**judgedoug**

Agamemnon2 wrote:
If you ever get the actual products, which given the rumors of GZ's status, should be in doubt.

In fact, I will gladly make a prophecy here, and leave myself a "told you so" card that I can cash in at a later date, that HQ25 will have one or more serious delays, problems, translation issues or just plain unsatisfying results that will cause people to throw hissy fits at a later date. The writing on the wall is clear for all with eyes to see, and who have not been blinded by the side issue of the IP being in doubt.

I'll tackle the first one, as the second one is like saying "Gamezone is not Mantic who is the only company ever to ever deliver a Kickstarter on time or early"

I've ordered hundreds of Gamezone models, I've even ordered directly from them, and have never had a problem. Should I have?

**weeble1000**

AlexHolker wrote:
weeble1000 wrote:
Dude, have you seen what the USPTO registers?

Yes, I have. One example being a patent for a technology that I was able to invent independently in about thirty seconds - namely, synchronising the input of a video camera and the output of a screen to film the objects sitting on the screen but not the image being displayed. But being stupid in the past is no excuse for being stupid in the future.

I never said it is. But expecting behavior to suddenly change from a long established pattern is also unrealistic.

**Agamemnon2**

judgedoug wrote:
I'll tackle the first one, as the second one is like saying "Gamezone is not Mantic who is the only company ever to ever deliver a Kickstarter on time or early"

I've ordered hundreds of Gamezone models, I've even ordered directly from them, and have never had a problem. Should I have?

We will see, won't we? The auspices are troubled, and by auspices I mean the recent rumors that GZ is these days a one-man operation. Have you noticed they've not put out anything since their resin dark elf spearmen, and those were a while ago? Now, it could be they've been working on HQ25 all this time, but the hiatus has been very long indeed.

**silent25**

weeble1000 wrote:

I really hope that I am in no way responsible for this. I had hoped that the important part of my take on the whole situation was that everyone should calm down, shake hands, have a cup of coffee in one of the many fine Spanish cafes, and come to an amiable resolution without murdering each other or bringing in the lawyers.

This quote from Other People's Money is apropos:

"Lawrence Garfield: They're like nuclear warheads. They have theirs, so I have mine. Once you use them, they feth up everything."

The owner of Moon Design came out on BGG and openly stated they will be opposing trademark registration. It's going full nuclear.

**DaveC**

from Twitter they are swapping to Verkami tomorrow

http://www.verkami.com/

much as I want a HQ remake I'm not touching this now given the mess it's in. If it hits retail and they can sell it unopposed I'll pick it up then.

Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project.

**Grot 6**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
easysauce wrote:

or call it heroes quest and be done with it

Can't. Sierra released a PC adventure game called Hero's Quest in 1989, got in legal trouble from Milton Bradley, ended up changing the name to Quest for Glory. So, court precedent already made regarding too much similarity in HeroQuest and Hero's Quest.

I was a teenage Roger Wilco fan back in the day.

Kings Quest was the shiz!!!!

For the uninitiated-

http://www.sierragamers.com/aspx/m/641124

Heros Quest is dead on the vine. Back to my Leasure Suit Larry.

**silent25**

Agamemnon2 wrote:
judgedoug wrote:
I'll tackle the first one, as the second one is like saying "Gamezone is not Mantic who is the only company ever to ever deliver a Kickstarter on time or early"

I've ordered hundreds of Gamezone models, I've even ordered directly from them, and have never had a problem. Should I have?

We will see, won't we? The auspices are troubled, and by auspices I mean the recent rumors that GZ is these days a one-man operation. Have you noticed they've not put out anything since their resin dark elf spearmen, and those were a while ago? Now, it could be they've been working on HQ25 all this time, but the hiatus has been very long indeed.

Actually when was the last new figure they put out? The resin dark elf figs are essentially recasts and one individual in this thread claimed the sculptor of all those figs doesn't work for GZ anymore.

**Catyrpelius**

DaveC wrote:
from Twitter they are swapping to Verkami tomorrow

http://www.verkami.com/

much as I want a HQ remake I'm not touching this now given the mess it's in.

Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project.

175 projects most of them well below 10,000 euros, most of them unfunded...

I wish them the best of luck and would recommend that they talk to a competent IP lawyer before their next project.