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2013/12/06 18:42:18
Subject: HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition Kickstarter - Suspended due to IP Dispute
That might be worth having some clarification actually.. think there was one chap a while ago in the thread saying that, although it hasn't been mentioned since?
The KS claimed to have some good artists working for them (although I realise that isn't worth what it once was now! ) Some of the renders looked interesting though..
from Twitter they are swapping to Verkami tomorrow
Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project
So, if Verkami are based in Barcelona, assume that will give them a potion of invulnerability to protect them against the attacks of Bitter RPG Designer Champion?
much as I want a HQ remake I'm not touching this now given the mess it's in.
Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project.
175 projects most of them well below 10,000 euros, most of them unfunded...
I wish them the best of luck and would recommend that they talk to a competent IP lawyer before their next project.
It will be interesting to see how many of the KS backers migrate over to the new project...
Azazelx wrote: That stuff would hardly be unique to Gamezone or HeroQuest. Heard of Sedition Wars? Zombicide S2? Relic Knights? Dreamforge Games Leviathan Project? Red Box Games Hellsvakt Horde? Secret Weapon Tablescapes? Trollforged Assimilation Alien Host? Cthulhu Wars? and on and on and on..... In fact "serious delays" is now taken to be a given for any KS project, and it's a surprise when one doesn't have them. Of course, that doesn't stop the project creators for new projects telling us that their project really, truly will be on time...
Hey, you forgot Up Front!
After Up Front, I'm not backing projects that may be subject to litigation. After Alien Assimilation, I'm wary of projects that depend on one person. With HQ25 garnering *half a million CAD* on KS in only three days, it's unlikely that the project will not be funded.
Of the miniatures boardgames I've seen, HQ is probably one of the easier ones to make from scratch. Even Hasbro has the rulebook and quests online. Only a matter of searching for the cards and waiting for the ArtsCow discount!
Of the miniatures boardgames I've seen, HQ is probably one of the easier ones to make from scratch. Even Hasbro has the rulebook and quests online. Only a matter of searching for the cards and waiting for the ArtsCow discount!
Agree. The rules and board are pretty easy to obtain. You don't actually NEED cards to play as it is easy enough to know what the cards are, print them out on paper and randomize via other means. A 'card mechanic' is not that integral to gameplay.
Gamezone seems to be a miniature company first and foremost. The thing that makes this super attractive is updated models, especially terrain pieces like doors and bookshelves and junk.
They could easily release 'dungeon' monsters which are the same models they plan to release, and release 'dungeon furniture' that they plan to release. Make them, have them look good, sell them as 'monster packs/terrain packs'.
Next, SELL DICE. They can make a generic dice which does what it needs to.
If they already have the models, later, they can release a 'board pack' with rules and boards after they have proven themselves and delt with legal issues. Then people who own models can buy a board + Monster + Dungeon pack and have a complete game.
If anything, I would like them to move ahead on the models, as the terrain pieces are what is needed by most collectors right now. They could release monsters, Furniture/terrain and a board right now on KS and no one could do a dang thing to them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/06 21:34:35
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
DaveC wrote: from Twitter they are swapping to Verkami tomorrow
http://www.verkami.com/ much as I want a HQ remake I'm not touching this now given the mess it's in. If it hits retail and they can sell it unopposed I'll pick it up then.
Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project.
This.
I wish them all the best, etc, but I'm not crowdfunding anything that's this messy nor anything that's not on Kickstarter - I've had bad experiences with Indiegogo, and they seem easier to work with than Verkami. If I really want to play HeroQuest, I have 1.8 copies of it, and more than enough miniatures to use for anything at all in the game.
They could easily release 'dungeon' monsters which are the same models they plan to release, and release 'dungeon furniture' that they plan to release. Make them, have them look good, sell them as 'monster packs/terrain packs'.
Next, SELL DICE. They can make a generic dice which does what it needs to.
If they already have the models, later, they can release a 'board pack' with rules and boards after they have proven themselves and delt with legal issues. Then people who own models can buy a board + Monster + Dungeon pack and have a complete game.
If anything, I would like them to move ahead on the models, as the terrain pieces are what is needed by most collectors right now. They could release monsters, Furniture/terrain and a board right now on KS and no one could do a dang thing to them.
Damn - a good set of ideas there, nkelsch.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/06 21:54:01
I think that's a good idea too nkelsch, I'd even back that and wasn't planning to back the board game, as those could be used for all sorts of similar games. No one would want to do anything about it, either- it'd be in the clear on all counts.
We will see, won't we? The auspices are troubled, and by auspices I mean the recent rumors that GZ is these days a one-man operation. Have you noticed they've not put out anything since their resin dark elf spearmen, and those were a while ago?
and Dark Elf cavalry and about a month or so ago the normal Elf spearmen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/06 22:24:38
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
RiTides wrote: I think that's a good idea too nkelsch, I'd even back that and wasn't planning to back the board game, as those could be used for all sorts of similar games. No one would want to do anything about it, either- it'd be in the clear on all counts.
Thirded. That's an excellent idea. And it keeps folks from getting their knickers in a twist. Ironically, GameZone's use of the mark has already drawn plenty of attention and interest such that dropping its use and proceeding with the components would probably allow GameZone to maintain or 'reattract' a decent portion of the initial backers.
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
RiTides wrote: Probably more than will migrate over to the much less known crowdsourcing site they're considering, to boot...
These are the kinds of creative solutions people should be trying to think of. This kind of stuff tends to pop up when parties consider interests instead of what they want, or deserve, or what is right or wrong, i.e. positions. Rather than taking positions, the parties should consider their interests.
What are GameZone's interests? It is in GameZone's interest to go forward with producing products it has sunk a lot of effort into already, right? That's probably true. It is not in GameZone's interest to sully the name of its company and lose prospective customers, right? It is in GameZone's interest to use the HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition mark. That's pretty obvious.
But what interest is more important, using the mark or producing the products without damaging the company?
What are Moon Design's interests? I have less sound guesses here. I suppose it is in Moon Design's interest to maintain control over a mark it has had trouble securing. That seems to make sense. Now, causing a big fight over the mark may run against this interest, because it introduces the risk that Moon Design's mark could be invalidated, and if an attempt to block GameZone's registration of its mark fails, Moon Design will have less of a standing in an infringement suit, and will have gone a long way toward solidifying the position of another company using the HeroQuest mark for a board game before Moon Design can.
What other interests does Moon Design have? Does Moon Design have an interest in maintaining space in the market for its own release of a HeroQuest marked board game? That could be. But that interest would seem to be narrowly limited to the mark and not specifics of the product, because the adventure-style dungeon crawl board game format is hardly new or unique.
So how would the two parties best protect their interests? What sort of deal could be worked out that would allow both parties to get most of what they want?
That perspective spawns the type of creative thinking like nkelsch has done. So how 'bout it? What sort of arrangement could the parties make, hypothetically, that would best serve their respective interests?
Might we all start throwing around some ideas?
What if Moon Design and GameZone could work out a modified, limited use of something like the mark that GameZone wants to use, for the purposes of a new Kickstarter campaign? For example, the product could officially be called Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories or Dungeon Gameplay Upgrades or whatever. But with a limited license from Moon Design, GameZone is allowed to say that the products can be used to replace or upgrade the integral components of the HeroQuest board game, or that the project is dedicated to the 25th Anniversary of the HeroQuest game, or that the project is intended to fund a set of Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories called the 25th Anniversary HeroQuest set.
Or maybe GameZone is allowed to use the HeroQuest mark with just the models, and the related board tiles, scenarios, and whatnot would have to have a different mark, but this would still allow the Kickstarter campaign to prominently feature the HeroQuest mark. Maybe this is a limited use just for the duration of the campaign, or that a subset of the models are confined to a limited edition, or that GameZone agrees to not package the models with board tiles and scenarios.
Maybe in exchange for GameZone backing off of further attempts to secure an independent HeroQuest mark, Moon Design can agree to allow GameZone to produce the miniatures for a subsequent Moon Design board game that is being planned (if there was one)?
What other ideas do y'all have? I'm sure many of you have really good ones. And I'm sure most of them are better than getting embroiled in an expensive, years long legal dispute that monopolizes your time, causes considerable stress, tarnishes your company's reputation, and puts business development into a stalemate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/06 23:55:14
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
Weeble wins Dakka today. Very nice post, man. As much as I'm all gung ho for Gamezone I would like this to be resolved amicably and in everyone's best interests - including and especially my own, so I can buy the damn thing
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
RiTides wrote: Probably more than will migrate over to the much less known crowdsourcing site they're considering, to boot...
These are the kinds of creative solutions people should be trying to think of. This kind of stuff tends to pop up when parties consider interests instead of what they want, or deserve, or what is right or wrong, i.e. positions. Rather than taking positions, the parties should consider their interests.
What are GameZone's interests? It is in GameZone's interest to go forward with producing products it has sunk a lot of effort into already, right? That's probably true. It is not in GameZone's interest to sully the name of its company and lose prospective customers, right? It is in GameZone's interest to use the HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition mark. That's pretty obvious.
But what interest is more important, using the mark or producing the products without damaging the company?
What are Moon Design's interests? I have less sound guesses here. I suppose it is in Moon Design's interest to maintain control over a mark it has had trouble securing. That seems to make sense. Now, causing a big fight over the mark may run against this interest, because it introduces the risk that Moon Design's mark could be invalidated, and if an attempt to block GameZone's registration of its mark fails, Moon Design will have less of a standing in an infringement suit, and will have gone a long way toward solidifying the position of another company using the HeroQuest mark for a board game before Moon Design can.
What other interests does Moon Design have? Does Moon Design have an interest in maintaining space in the market for its own release of a HeroQuest marked board game? That could be. But that interest would seem to be narrowly limited to the mark and not specifics of the product, because the adventure-style dungeon crawl board game format is hardly new or unique.
So how would the two parties best protect their interests? What sort of deal could be worked out that would allow both parties to get most of what they want?
That perspective spawns the type of creative thinking like nkelsch has done. So how 'bout it? What sort of arrangement could the parties make, hypothetically, that would best serve their respective interests?
Might we all start throwing around some ideas?
What if Moon Design and GameZone could work out a modified, limited use of something like the mark that GameZone wants to use, for the purposes of a new Kickstarter campaign? For example, the product could officially be called Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories or Dungeon Gameplay Upgrades or whatever. But with a limited license from Moon Design, GameZone is allowed to say that the products can be used to replace or upgrade the integral components of the HeroQuest board game, or that the project is dedicated to the 25th Anniversary of the HeroQuest game, or that the project is intended to fund a set of Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories called the 25th Anniversary HeroQuest set.
Or maybe GameZone is allowed to use the HeroQuest mark with just the models, and the related board tiles, scenarios, and whatnot would have to have a different mark, but this would still allow the Kickstarter campaign to prominently feature the HeroQuest mark. Maybe this is a limited use just for the duration of the campaign, or that a subset of the models are confined to a limited edition, or that GameZone agrees to not package the models with board tiles and scenarios.
Maybe in exchange for GameZone backing off of further attempts to secure an independent HeroQuest mark, Moon Design can agree to allow GameZone to produce the miniatures for a subsequent Moon Design board game that is being planned (if there was one)?
What other ideas do y'all have? I'm sure many of you have really good ones. And I'm sure most of them are better than getting embroiled in an expensive, years long legal dispute that monopolizes your time, causes considerable stress, tarnishes your company's reputation, and puts business development into a stalemate.
I have been quietly keeping up on what's happening with this out of pure interest. I am not vested in the project in any way, but it seems to me there is a perfect setup like the one you mentioned if the companies were a bit more levelheaded.
Basically they could put out a game together called Heroquest and rule the land. A bit less cake for GZ, but on the other hand - at this point I am thinking it would mean more cake.
Then make the rules and cards a PDF/purchasable physical pack.
Then the part which really needs crowdfunding... the models can be Kickstarted. Maybe even partner with a tile-maker to release a add-on 'board pack'.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
Pacific wrote: That might be worth having some clarification actually.. think there was one chap a while ago in the thread saying that, although it hasn't been mentioned since?
The KS claimed to have some good artists working for them (although I realise that isn't worth what it once was now! ) Some of the renders looked interesting though..
from Twitter they are swapping to Verkami tomorrow
Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project
So, if Verkami are based in Barcelona, assume that will give them a potion of invulnerability to protect them against the attacks of Bitter RPG Designer Champion?
Hardly bitter, those RPG designers. Here's a comment from Jeff Richard of Moon Design Publishing, from a Google+ discussion:
"Jeff Richard
Yesterday 01:34
Hey, if they want to do their unlicensed remake of a MB Game on Verkami, that's not our problem and I'd be perfectly happy to wish them well. As for the USPTO, I strongly doubt that the examining attorney will approve their application, but we'll be watching the process.
That being said, if someone actually had the rights to remake MB Heroquest, we'd have no qualms about licensing the US trademark. Or if Hasbro wanted to do it..."
RiTides wrote: Probably more than will migrate over to the much less known crowdsourcing site they're considering, to boot...
These are the kinds of creative solutions people should be trying to think of. This kind of stuff tends to pop up when parties consider interests instead of what they want, or deserve, or what is right or wrong, i.e. positions. Rather than taking positions, the parties should consider their interests.
What are GameZone's interests? It is in GameZone's interest to go forward with producing products it has sunk a lot of effort into already, right? That's probably true. It is not in GameZone's interest to sully the name of its company and lose prospective customers, right? It is in GameZone's interest to use the HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition mark. That's pretty obvious.
But what interest is more important, using the mark or producing the products without damaging the company?
What are Moon Design's interests? I have less sound guesses here. I suppose it is in Moon Design's interest to maintain control over a mark it has had trouble securing. That seems to make sense. Now, causing a big fight over the mark may run against this interest, because it introduces the risk that Moon Design's mark could be invalidated, and if an attempt to block GameZone's registration of its mark fails, Moon Design will have less of a standing in an infringement suit, and will have gone a long way toward solidifying the position of another company using the HeroQuest mark for a board game before Moon Design can.
What other interests does Moon Design have? Does Moon Design have an interest in maintaining space in the market for its own release of a HeroQuest marked board game? That could be. But that interest would seem to be narrowly limited to the mark and not specifics of the product, because the adventure-style dungeon crawl board game format is hardly new or unique.
So how would the two parties best protect their interests? What sort of deal could be worked out that would allow both parties to get most of what they want?
That perspective spawns the type of creative thinking like nkelsch has done. So how 'bout it? What sort of arrangement could the parties make, hypothetically, that would best serve their respective interests?
Might we all start throwing around some ideas?
What if Moon Design and GameZone could work out a modified, limited use of something like the mark that GameZone wants to use, for the purposes of a new Kickstarter campaign? For example, the product could officially be called Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories or Dungeon Gameplay Upgrades or whatever. But with a limited license from Moon Design, GameZone is allowed to say that the products can be used to replace or upgrade the integral components of the HeroQuest board game, or that the project is dedicated to the 25th Anniversary of the HeroQuest game, or that the project is intended to fund a set of Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories called the 25th Anniversary HeroQuest set.
Or maybe GameZone is allowed to use the HeroQuest mark with just the models, and the related board tiles, scenarios, and whatnot would have to have a different mark, but this would still allow the Kickstarter campaign to prominently feature the HeroQuest mark. Maybe this is a limited use just for the duration of the campaign, or that a subset of the models are confined to a limited edition, or that GameZone agrees to not package the models with board tiles and scenarios.
Maybe in exchange for GameZone backing off of further attempts to secure an independent HeroQuest mark, Moon Design can agree to allow GameZone to produce the miniatures for a subsequent Moon Design board game that is being planned (if there was one)?
What other ideas do y'all have? I'm sure many of you have really good ones. And I'm sure most of them are better than getting embroiled in an expensive, years long legal dispute that monopolizes your time, causes considerable stress, tarnishes your company's reputation, and puts business development into a stalemate.
I have been quietly keeping up on what's happening with this out of pure interest. I am not vested in the project in any way, but it seems to me there is a perfect setup like the one you mentioned if the companies were a bit more levelheaded.
Basically they could put out a game together called Heroquest and rule the land. A bit less cake for GZ, but on the other hand - at this point I am thinking it would mean more cake.
As generous an idea as this is its based on a misunderstanding - that the board game Moon Design put out under the name "HeroQuest" is some form of Dungeon Crawl similar in concept to MBs own or GZs tribute. I don't believe it would be as "heroquesting" in Glorantha is about travelling into the Godsworld and re-enacting Myths in order to acquire benefits, powers, changes in reality to suit immediate need back in the mundane world. It may involve gaining community support for the ritual, researching the myth, and other such factors in the game design and components. Dungeon-style miniatures, heck miniatures at all, seem extremely unlikely, to me anyway. Though I have no involvement with the design of the game.
Agree. The rules and board are pretty easy to obtain. You don't actually NEED cards to play as it is easy enough to know what the cards are, print them out on paper and randomize via other means. A 'card mechanic' is not that integral to gameplay.
Gamezone seems to be a miniature company first and foremost. The thing that makes this super attractive is updated models, especially terrain pieces like doors and bookshelves and junk.
They could easily release 'dungeon' monsters which are the same models they plan to release, and release 'dungeon furniture' that they plan to release. Make them, have them look good, sell them as 'monster packs/terrain packs'.
Next, SELL DICE. They can make a generic dice which does what it needs to.
If they already have the models, later, they can release a 'board pack' with rules and boards after they have proven themselves and delt with legal issues. Then people who own models can buy a board + Monster + Dungeon pack and have a complete game.
If anything, I would like them to move ahead on the models, as the terrain pieces are what is needed by most collectors right now. They could release monsters, Furniture/terrain and a board right now on KS and no one could do a dang thing to them.
SERIOUSLY. DO THIS GAME ZONE.
What a wonderful idea. They could keep it on Kickstarter too, sell it as dungeon terrain, monster terrain, keep it damn simple, deliver it on time, and win everyone's trust back.
Do a few of those, release your own HQ inspired game.
PROFIT.
Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!
much as I want a HQ remake I'm not touching this now given the mess it's in.
Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project.
175 projects most of them well below 10,000 euros, most of them unfunded...
I wish them the best of luck and would recommend that they talk to a competent IP lawyer before their next project.
That count doesn't include the past succesfull ones. no.1 collected 350k & next 90+ collected over 10k money during their 40 day pledge-drive.
Granted, it isn't kickstarter, but I'd still count them better than Indiegogo, thanks to the lack of Flexible sca.... Funding.
RiTides wrote: Probably more than will migrate over to the much less known crowdsourcing site they're considering, to boot...
These are the kinds of creative solutions people should be trying to think of. This kind of stuff tends to pop up when parties consider interests instead of what they want, or deserve, or what is right or wrong, i.e. positions. Rather than taking positions, the parties should consider their interests.
What are GameZone's interests? It is in GameZone's interest to go forward with producing products it has sunk a lot of effort into already, right? That's probably true. It is not in GameZone's interest to sully the name of its company and lose prospective customers, right? It is in GameZone's interest to use the HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition mark. That's pretty obvious.
But what interest is more important, using the mark or producing the products without damaging the company?
What are Moon Design's interests? I have less sound guesses here. I suppose it is in Moon Design's interest to maintain control over a mark it has had trouble securing. That seems to make sense. Now, causing a big fight over the mark may run against this interest, because it introduces the risk that Moon Design's mark could be invalidated, and if an attempt to block GameZone's registration of its mark fails, Moon Design will have less of a standing in an infringement suit, and will have gone a long way toward solidifying the position of another company using the HeroQuest mark for a board game before Moon Design can.
What other interests does Moon Design have? Does Moon Design have an interest in maintaining space in the market for its own release of a HeroQuest marked board game? That could be. But that interest would seem to be narrowly limited to the mark and not specifics of the product, because the adventure-style dungeon crawl board game format is hardly new or unique.
So how would the two parties best protect their interests? What sort of deal could be worked out that would allow both parties to get most of what they want?
That perspective spawns the type of creative thinking like nkelsch has done. So how 'bout it? What sort of arrangement could the parties make, hypothetically, that would best serve their respective interests?
Might we all start throwing around some ideas?
What if Moon Design and GameZone could work out a modified, limited use of something like the mark that GameZone wants to use, for the purposes of a new Kickstarter campaign? For example, the product could officially be called Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories or Dungeon Gameplay Upgrades or whatever. But with a limited license from Moon Design, GameZone is allowed to say that the products can be used to replace or upgrade the integral components of the HeroQuest board game, or that the project is dedicated to the 25th Anniversary of the HeroQuest game, or that the project is intended to fund a set of Dungeon Crawl Board Tiles and Accessories called the 25th Anniversary HeroQuest set.
Or maybe GameZone is allowed to use the HeroQuest mark with just the models, and the related board tiles, scenarios, and whatnot would have to have a different mark, but this would still allow the Kickstarter campaign to prominently feature the HeroQuest mark. Maybe this is a limited use just for the duration of the campaign, or that a subset of the models are confined to a limited edition, or that GameZone agrees to not package the models with board tiles and scenarios.
Maybe in exchange for GameZone backing off of further attempts to secure an independent HeroQuest mark, Moon Design can agree to allow GameZone to produce the miniatures for a subsequent Moon Design board game that is being planned (if there was one)?
What other ideas do y'all have? I'm sure many of you have really good ones. And I'm sure most of them are better than getting embroiled in an expensive, years long legal dispute that monopolizes your time, causes considerable stress, tarnishes your company's reputation, and puts business development into a stalemate.
I have been quietly keeping up on what's happening with this out of pure interest. I am not vested in the project in any way, but it seems to me there is a perfect setup like the one you mentioned if the companies were a bit more levelheaded.
Basically they could put out a game together called Heroquest and rule the land. A bit less cake for GZ, but on the other hand - at this point I am thinking it would mean more cake.
As generous an idea as this is its based on a misunderstanding - that the board game Moon Design put out under the name "HeroQuest" is some form of Dungeon Crawl similar in concept to MBs own or GZs tribute. I don't believe it would be as "heroquesting" in Glorantha is about travelling into the Godsworld and re-enacting Myths in order to acquire benefits, powers, changes in reality to suit immediate need back in the mundane world. It may involve gaining community support for the ritual, researching the myth, and other such factors in the game design and components. Dungeon-style miniatures, heck miniatures at all, seem extremely unlikely, to me anyway. Though I have no involvement with the design of the game.
I do understand that Moon Design does RPGs and that their HQ is something different, but I also find it likely that they are in the business of making money. Evidently they would be quite happy licensing their trademark for said dungeon crawl given the right circumstances as the stated prerequisite is that either Hasbro does it or Hasbro signing off on someone else doing it - and paying Moon Design . And this is according to them.
I don't want to be one of those that go "Now I am no lawyer bla bla...", but if what's been stated so far about it not being "Heroquest" (in that the rules have been rewritten and everything else is altered so that it would not be a carbon copy of MB's Heroquest and thus not infringe on any IP), I don't see why they wouldn't go for it. I mean I do see quite clearly that this is business and business is about making money. It would make sense for Moon Design to push any button they can to either secure a piece of the pie or protect their TM for their current and future endevours if the piece of pie is not to their satisfaction. That is also exactly what they are doing. So is GZ.
No one is coming to an agreement until GZ has exhausted all other options in order to not cut any pie.
You don't need to know any legalese to understand how the economics work. The game is not being made for the sheer joy of bringing it back to the fans. It would then be a free download of sorts. It's a prime money making property. GZ just thought of it first. It's now a race, and that is why GZ is in such a hurry to cement that it's their baby and get it out there. I am certain a lot of clone "dungeon packs" will crop up soon in the wake of this given how much interest there is. You don't even need to supply rules since the original are freely obtainable in a legal fashion.
As I understand it, MD is looking for a *written* agreement that Hasbro isn't going after GZ, MD, or whoever about a HQ boardgame in the US -- and that GZ hasn't produced it. Because it hasn't been provided, MD isn't touching this project at all. If GZ makes HQ-compatible figures, then get tied of up in litigation, guess what. Even though the figures are HQ-free, the company isn't, and the project gets delayed. If the litgation in Up Front tells us anything, this could be a *long* time.
Wishful thinking isn't going to settle this. And, in the end, nobody knows what would happen until the courts hand down a ruling. I think USA gamers are best waiting it out until the game hits retail. Spanish gamers will have to have faith that GZ won't take more of these IP risks.
In any case, if you think the risks are worth the reward, back the project.
Pacific wrote: That might be worth having some clarification actually.. think there was one chap a while ago in the thread saying that, although it hasn't been mentioned since?
The KS claimed to have some good artists working for them (although I realise that isn't worth what it once was now! ) Some of the renders looked interesting though..
from Twitter they are swapping to Verkami tomorrow
http://www.verkami.com/ Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project
So, if Verkami are based in Barcelona, assume that will give them a potion of invulnerability to protect them against the attacks of Bitter RPG Designer Champion?
Hardly bitter, those RPG designers. Here's a comment from Jeff Richard of Moon Design Publishing, from a Google+ discussion:
"Jeff Richard
Yesterday 01:34
Hey, if they want to do their unlicensed remake of a MB Game on Verkami, that's not our problem and I'd be perfectly happy to wish them well. As for the USPTO, I strongly doubt that the examining attorney will approve their application, but we'll be watching the process.
That being said, if someone actually had the rights to remake MB Heroquest, we'd have no qualms about licensing the US trademark. Or if Hasbro wanted to do it..."
I was trying to just be funny, but there we go Perhaps not this comment, but the previous letter sounded extremely so. But then, perhaps I would be too if I had a company that had been struggling, then some Spanish company came along, wrote "Heroquest LOL" on Kickstarter and then proceeded to collect half a million dollars in 3 days.
As I understand it, MD is looking for a *written* agreement that Hasbro isn't going after GZ, MD, or whoever about a HQ boardgame in the US -- and that GZ hasn't produced it. Because it hasn't been provided, MD isn't touching this project at all. If GZ makes HQ-compatible figures, then get tied of up in litigation, guess what. Even though the figures are HQ-free, the company isn't, and the project gets delayed. If the litgation in Up Front tells us anything, this could be a *long* time.
This was kind of my impression as well, is it correct?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/07 08:44:10
DaveC wrote:much as I want a HQ remake I'm not touching this now given the mess it's in. If it hits retail and they can sell it unopposed I'll pick it up then.
You know that retail means in Spain only, right? Though they will probably have a mail order option.
Azazelx wrote:I wish them all the best, etc, but I'm not crowdfunding anything that's this messy nor anything that's not on Kickstarter - I've had bad experiences with Indiegogo, and they seem easier to work with than Verkami. If I really want to play HeroQuest, I have 1.8 copies of it, and more than enough miniatures to use for anything at all in the game.
So you won't back projects that make it difficult to drop the pledge? Surprising!
Psychman wrote:"Jeff Richard
Yesterday 01:34
That being said, if someone actually had the rights to remake MB Heroquest, we'd have no qualms about licensing the US trademark. Or if Hasbro wanted to do it..."
DaveC wrote:much as I want a HQ remake I'm not touching this now given the mess it's in. If it hits retail and they can sell it unopposed I'll pick it up then.
You know that retail means in Spain only, right? Though they will probably have a mail order option.
Yep I have a Spanish mailing address I can use if it comes to it but buying it online and mailing it shouldn't be an issue - if they get to that point.
from Twitter they are swapping to Verkami tomorrow
http://www.verkami.com/ Verkami appears to be based in Barcelona. If you back you can't back out by yourself you have to email the site and request they release you from backing the project
That's true, but they also happen to guarantee the completion of the project (or something like that):
What happens if I contribute to a project that is successfully funded and the creator is unable to complete it? Creators in verkami must complete their project as listed and abude by their commitments to patrons. In case they don't/ can't they must give back each patron their contribution.
Yep. Do a search on "KickStarter hansfree" and "KickStarter doom atlantic city" for a few "interesting" KickStarters. Might as well read the "What does this mean for Up Front" thread about the Up Front card game KickStarter while waiting for Verkami.
ced1106 wrote: Yep. Do a search on "KickStarter hansfree" and "KickStarter doom atlantic city" for a few "interesting" KickStarters. Might as well read the "What does this mean for Up Front" thread about the Up Front card game KickStarter while waiting for Verkami.
$58,000 became €58,000 - that's $82,000 or so I see maths isn't their strong point either
Not a single mention of a canceled kickstarter campaign or a challenge by Moon Designs in the risks and challenges section again GameZone being very selective with what they talk about.
And then there is this
One of the most positive aspects of Verkami is that the success of the project means a real obligation. This way there will be a firm commitment to produce the game. Verkami even establishes a policy to return the money to all backers in the event that it was impossible to carry this project out. It is a full warranty insurance
Verkami offers no guarantee of money back all they say is it's up to creator to refund if they can't fulfill but the backer still carries the risk of losing their money.
And this from the HQ classic website
The stretch goals that were already released, will return to gain from a base figure, all of them, you won't need to unlock them again.
But stretch goal one is to unlock the monster cards again so which is it they are in from the start hence the increased funding total or unlock them all again?
Will keep an eye on it but longer this goes the more I get a bad vibe from it.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2013/12/08 01:10:09
) Some of the renders looked interesting though..
