But you are right, of course, Every sprue produced in God knows how long has the copyright and the year. Then again, these could be early test runs /models produced for the studio to paint up.
Do those appear to be the standard-sized marine legs? FW legs give marines some much needed height imo. Honestly, FW would make a killing if they just sold a space marine leg set
MacMuckles wrote: Do those appear to be the standard-sized marine legs? FW legs give marines some much needed height imo. Honestly, FW would make a killing if they just sold a space marine leg set
MacMuckles wrote: Do those appear to be the standard-sized marine legs? FW legs give marines some much needed height imo. Honestly, FW would make a killing if they just sold a space marine leg set
They look devastator leg-size to me.
Which are roughly between FW marine and Tac Marine sized, right? That's what I heard, I haven't really had time to pick up a Dev set and look through unfortunately...
Manchu wrote: I remember and I hope those are for real but it worries me that there is no Citadel tradmark or copyright info like on the AoS starter sprues.
The images have most of the sprue edges in near darkness, even zoomed in it is near impossible to see any detail on them, so it's quite possible that they're there, we just can't see them.
It's also just struck me that this could be my last GW purchase in some time, if not ever, the way things are going, as it will give me more than enough stuff to finish my current army project, and I'm just not excited enough to play any of their game to warrant further investment.
I'd say it makes me sad, but honestly, the care has been beaten out of me, and largely replaced with apathy, but it could well be the end of a more than 25 year old part of my life.
I watched some guys play 40k at the LGS a couple of weeks ago and it looked terrible, just a bunch of stuff piled up on the table so that the two sides basically started within a handful of inches from each other. It really reminded me why I lost all interest in the game, which is a shame because I still love the setting and would by miniatures if there was a game worth playing with them. So I am excited about the possibility of an AoS-style 30k game. Nothing could be better suited to the design of AoS than SM v SM fighting.
I'm not overly concerned if that happens, because, as Manchu says, when it's Marine on Marine it is much easier to balance.
It will almost certainly lack some of the tactical depth of some of the other games I've been playing/looking to play, but if it's fair and if it's fun, then it will still have a place in my gaming life.
Manchu wrote: I watched some guys play 40k at the LGS a couple of weeks ago and it looked terrible, just a bunch of stuff piled up on the table so that the two sides basically started within a handful of inches from each other. It really reminded me why I lost all interest in the game, which is a shame because I still love the setting and would by miniatures if there was a game worth playing with them. So I am excited about the possibility of an AoS-style 30k game. Nothing could be better suited to the design of AoS than SM v SM fighting.
I said Space Hulk, by the way, because someone posted somewhere that it would be a boarding-style game, with asymmetric forces. And cardboard terrain. Sounds a lot Space Hulky to me.
I actually really liked Space Hulk, right from 1st edition. Definitely one of my favorite GW specialist games.
Talys wrote: I said Space Hulk, by the way, because someone posted somewhere that it would be a boarding-style game, with asymmetric forces. And cardboard terrain. Sounds a lot Space Hulky to me.
I actually really liked Space Hulk, right from 1st edition. Definitely one of my favorite GW specialist games.
Same here, I have managed to get a copy of every edition so far...
If this is the same, well I still got some shelf space...someplace...maybe...
Manchu wrote: I watched some guys play 40k at the LGS a couple of weeks ago and it looked terrible, just a bunch of stuff piled up on the table so that the two sides basically started within a handful of inches from each other. It really reminded me why I lost all interest in the game, which is a shame because I still love the setting and would by miniatures if there was a game worth playing with them. So I am excited about the possibility of an AoS-style 30k game. Nothing could be better suited to the design of AoS than SM v SM fighting.
You keep your age of sigmar creative diahreha as far away from anything remotely related to 40k. That game is an abortion.
Manchu wrote: I watched some guys play 40k at the LGS a couple of weeks ago and it looked terrible, just a bunch of stuff piled up on the table so that the two sides basically started within a handful of inches from each other. It really reminded me why I lost all interest in the game, which is a shame because I still love the setting and would by miniatures if there was a game worth playing with them. So I am excited about the possibility of an AoS-style 30k game. Nothing could be better suited to the design of AoS than SM v SM fighting.
You keep your age of sigmar creative diahreha as far away from anything remotely related to 40k. That game is an abortion.
Let's be honest, the rules could work quite well for the Horus Heresy. Much easier to balance, although the FW rules would still be superior.
As soon as AoS came out I remembered this. I'm calling it 40k, will get the Sig treatment in some form or another. GW says they are a models company and 40k has always had some clunky rules with many revisions, maybe they'll just squat everything after 7th and start anew with this this crap (not the models but Aos style rules).
BrookM wrote: Not the end of the world, as FW has put out excellent rules of their own.
You're assuming FW will be permitted to continue their own series going forward, or that if they are permitted to continue they won't be forced to use GW's new AoS-ified game as the baseline for their own system rather than 6thEd 40K. People will scoff, but they scoffed at the idea GW would eradicate Fantasy as a setting, then they scoffed at the idea the replacement would be a Planescape/Viking myth mashup-ripoff, and then they scoffed at the idea the game mechanics of the replacement could simultaneously be dramatically simplified AND almost totally lacking in structure, yet here we stand, in GW's brave new world.
The usual refrain is that GW wouldn't possibly be stupid enough to AoS-ify their other IPs, which are financially much more successful than Fantasy was at the end(due to GW's own incompetence and mismanagement of it more than anything else), but when have GW ever done anything other than go full-on with their latest whackaloonery? Every couple of years the management comes up with some brilliant new idea and the direction of their output must be shifted accordingly; first they streamlined 40K down into 3rd Edition, then they bloated it with so much supplementary material and codices designed under contradictory philosophies that they had to re-streamline it in 4th & 5th, then they chucked that whole ethos out the window for 6th and went full-RDJ on their own bizarre definition of the word "narrative" that seems to mean anything they want it to mean, and carried on with that in 7th, but still not without completely shifting their design philosophy for army lists on multiple occasions.
GW think they are on to a winner with AoS. I'm sure many here will disagree with that, but we won't know for certain for at least a year or two, because in the meantime there will be some level of increase in Fantasy sales whether AoS is destined to last or not through a combination of people panic-buying existing models to finish existing armies for Realhammer, people buying the new models for use in existing armies(where thematically appropriate) or for 40K conversions, and the newshiny crowd(who many MMO developers have learned to their cost cannot be relied upon to support a business). The problem is GW claim they do no market research, so they don't know why any particular person is buying any particular kit, merely that it has been bought, and understanding the why is a necessary prerequisite for predicting future behaviour(ie spending on GW product) from previous behaviour, but GW don't seem to give a gak about that.
They're launching this Heresy box right after the initial wave of AoS releases, well before it's sound to draw any conclusions about AoS' success or otherwise and the reasons for either, and again short-term we know the Heresy box will sell like mad; between newshinies who want the latest thing itself, folk buying to use in 40K, folk buying to complete existing FW30K armies, and folk buying into FW30K who were previously discouraged by the price/qualities of resin models, it's sure to be a great success in terms of raw sales. From GW's limited "why is otiose" viewpoint, they'll have just launched two wildly successful AoS-ified products, one of them based around their Golden Goose; I don't see them being mental enough to take that as a green-light to AoS-ify everything(regardless of potential long-term consequences) as a far-fetched scenario frankly, based on their previous behaviour.
The usual refrain is that GW wouldn't possibly be stupid enough to AoS-ify their other IPs, which are financially much more successful than Fantasy was at the end(due to GW's own incompetence and mismanagement of it more than anything else), but when have GW ever done anything other than go full-on with their latest whackaloonery?
While I'm firmly in the camp that 40k rules are superior to AoS rules in terms of what I'm looking for in a game... I wonder what people will think if, somehow, AoS turns out to be long-term profitable for GW? In other words, if GW makes something that's totally not for them (and not really for me), but it makes GW a lot of money, will people still think that they are foolish for doing so?
This is actually pretty relevant to Forge World: Forge World and 30k as it exists today is not really for most people. For 99%+ of the world's population, and probably 99%+ of the wargaming population building a 2500 point army (the starting point around which the game is optimized) is totally unaffordable, really expensive books that make 40k codexes seem cheap, the inevitable "other pieces" you need in your army, large robot kits that are $1000+, resin gaming boards that cost $200 for a 2x2 and so forth. If you had asked me, I would have said, "no way, such a company could not survive."
And yet, Forge World thrives; it probably does as much in sales all by itself as a lot of small miniature wargaming companies.
What if this box set is something along the lines of a Zone Mortalis type of game? Something with breachers and defenders? Something that is somewhere in between Space Hulk and 40K? I would look forward to something like that. Biggest problem with 40K is the rules being dispersed everywhere and not being able to always know the rules of your opponent due to some formation, detachment, or Forgeworld item, etc.
Talys wrote: This is actually pretty relevant to Forge World: Forge World and 30k as it exists today is not really for most people. For 99%+ of the world's population, and probably 99%+ of the wargaming population building a 2500 point army (the starting point around which the game is optimized) is totally unaffordable, really expensive books that make 40k codexes seem cheap, the inevitable "other pieces" you need in your army, large robot kits that are $1000+, resin gaming boards that cost $200 for a 2x2 and so forth. If you had asked me, I would have said, "no way, such a company could not survive."
And yet, Forge World thrives; it probably does as much in sales all by itself as a lot of small miniature wargaming companies.
They're an appendix of main GW in (40k) background and facilities. Sure, they make some good stuff, but they wouldn't be that successful (if at all) without the 40k universe (including 30k) and the 40k game - i.e. the 40k players and fanbase. So it's not useful to compare them to those 'small miniature wargaming companies' - they have a popular setting AND game for which they sell miniatures and books.
That and if one wants to play the rules are barely more expensive than any other posh version of a smaller company's rulebook, and about the same price of a codex.
Plus, thanks to the uniquely dumb way GW product is priced, there's a percentage of the world where the price difference is almost entirely irrelevant.
Plus, as its Marines v Marines, there's plenty of ways the budget conscious can improvise an army without paying a fortune.
Of course, one can use all the FW kits, but at least at this moment that remains a choice, not a necessity.
I don't disagree with any of this, Az and Dryak, but the prices are still what they are. I never actually thought that there would be enough people to support a product priced at this level, nevermind some thriving 30k communities.
Your point is well taken that in Australia, the price difference is much narrower though, I suppose making the choice between them less about price.
The usual refrain is that GW wouldn't possibly be stupid enough to AoS-ify their other IPs, which are financially much more successful than Fantasy was at the end(due to GW's own incompetence and mismanagement of it more than anything else), but when have GW ever done anything other than go full-on with their latest whackaloonery?
While I'm firmly in the camp that 40k rules are superior to AoS rules in terms of what I'm looking for in a game... I wonder what people will think if, somehow, AoS turns out to be long-term profitable for GW? In other words, if GW makes something that's totally not for them (and not really for me), but it makes GW a lot of money, will people still think that they are foolish for doing so?
This is actually pretty relevant to Forge World: Forge World and 30k as it exists today is not really for most people. For 99%+ of the world's population, and probably 99%+ of the wargaming population building a 2500 point army (the starting point around which the game is optimized) is totally unaffordable, really expensive books that make 40k codexes seem cheap, the inevitable "other pieces" you need in your army, large robot kits that are $1000+, resin gaming boards that cost $200 for a 2x2 and so forth. If you had asked me, I would have said, "no way, such a company could not survive."
And yet, Forge World thrives; it probably does as much in sales all by itself as a lot of small miniature wargaming companies.
I specifically note in the bigger part of my post you cut away that we don't actually know how AoS will fare, and realistically won't know for at least a year or two yet. It may well be wildly successful, personally I doubt that, but the point of my post was to illustrate that this whole "GW would never just AoS-ify 40K/FW30K" is a nonsense because GW don't have and don't want the data needed to make an informed decision.
Yodhrin wrote: I specifically note in the bigger part of my post you cut away that we don't actually know how AoS will fare, and realistically won't know for at least a year or two yet. It may well be wildly successful, personally I doubt that, but the point of my post was to illustrate that this whole "GW would never just AoS-ify 40K/FW30K" is a nonsense because GW don't have and don't want the data needed to make an informed decision.
Yeah, I agree with your conclusion, though not the reason why. I think GW has as much or more data than most other companies in the miniature wargaming industry. They just don't care about the things they don't are about.
I can't see them fixing a wheel that isn't broken -- they might fix the parts of WH40k that aren't profitable, but certainly not the parts that are profitable. So the rules/codex system, for example, I don't think is going anywhere, nor the points system, imperfect as it is. For the same reason, I don't see them mucking with FW; it's in a happy place with its fanbase.
Yodhrin wrote: I specifically note in the bigger part of my post you cut away that we don't actually know how AoS will fare, and realistically won't know for at least a year or two yet. It may well be wildly successful, personally I doubt that, but the point of my post was to illustrate that this whole "GW would never just AoS-ify 40K/FW30K" is a nonsense because GW don't have and don't want the data needed to make an informed decision.
Yeah, I agree with your conclusion, though not the reason why. I think GW has as much or more data than most other companies in the miniature wargaming industry
From where?
If you just mean "what they've sold" then, in isolation, that's meaningless when making decisions about where to take your product in the future.
I'm completely unfamiliar with the 40k universe (doubly so for 30k), but I'm intrigued by the idea of second space marine game that isn't 40k. I mean, I've looked through the wiki and at forgeworld and stuff, and I have a basic idea about what this whole Horus Heresy thing is (like really basic), but if someone wouldn't mind explaining a few things to me...
How is Horus Heresy different from 40k? I mean, the lore is different, but it's still just space marines, right? Are there Eldar and Tau or whatever? Are the classic factions, like the Space Wolves and Blood Angels still part of it? I guess I'm asking how, being so similar (to an outsider like me) to 40k, how is this a different game that differentiates itself from 40k? Will new players even be able to tell them apart? Will Horus Heresy just cannibalize players from 40k, or are they targeting a new audience? Is there a fundamentally different style to the power armor?
I'm just finding it a little confusing because so far, the only things that seem to differentiate it against 40k are things that I'm unfamiliar with, and thus can't tell apart. I'm interested in it, assuming it is a new game and jumping on point, but I'm having a dickens of a time trying to figure it out without first becoming a 40k player and fluff expert.
The Second Founding has not happened yet, meaning all Space Marines are divided into the eighteen Legions. No thousand chapters here. Blood Angels and Space Wolves are two of these Legions.
Tau have not appeared yet, they do not evolve until much closer to the 41st millennium. Eldar are around, but have not been integrated into the actual game yet.
The power armour is recognisable for what it is, though mostly MK2/3/4 is used (with only a couple of legions using mk6, and mk7 being all-but non-existent) so it looks fairly different. The terminator armour marks are also different, mostly everything is either very or at least slightly different.
However, in addition to the many flavours of Space Marine, there are also different Mechanicus armies, as well as Solar Auxilia (30k MT) and Imperial Army/warp cults.
It's 10,000 years before 40k. The main forces during the Heresy itself are mostly SM legions against SM legions, with some Imperial Army and Mechanicum/Dark Mechanicum thrown in as well. There are a LOT of units/weapons that exist during the heresy that don't in 40k, and a lot of 40k era stuff that hadn't been invented at the time of the heresy.
Also, legion organization can be quite different than SM chapter organization. For example, the closest thing in structure to a 40k tactical squad are the 30k veteran squads. 30k tac squads are bigger (10-20) and have no special/heavy weapons. Support squads and heavy weapon squads are ALL armed with special/heavy weapons, rather than just a few guys in the squad.
Sqorgar wrote: I'm completely unfamiliar with the 40k universe (doubly so for 30k), but I'm intrigued by the idea of second space marine game that isn't 40k. I mean, I've looked through the wiki and at forgeworld and stuff, and I have a basic idea about what this whole Horus Heresy thing is (like really basic), but if someone wouldn't mind explaining a few things to me...
How is Horus Heresy different from 40k? I mean, the lore is different, but it's still just space marines, right? Are there Eldar and Tau or whatever? Are the classic factions, like the Space Wolves and Blood Angels still part of it? I guess I'm asking how, being so similar (to an outsider like me) to 40k, how is this a different game that differentiates itself from 40k? Will new players even be able to tell them apart? Will Horus Heresy just cannibalize players from 40k, or are they targeting a new audience? Is there a fundamentally different style to the power armor?
I'm just finding it a little confusing because so far, the only things that seem to differentiate it against 40k are things that I'm unfamiliar with, and thus can't tell apart. I'm interested in it, assuming it is a new game and jumping on point, but I'm having a dickens of a time trying to figure it out without first becoming a 40k player and fluff expert.
start by reading Horus Heresy, fantastic read
as for the rest others will explain it better than me
shade1313 wrote: It's 10,000 years before 40k. The main forces during the Heresy itself are mostly SM legions against SM legions, with some Imperial Army and Mechanicum/Dark Mechanicum thrown in as well. There are a LOT of units/weapons that exist during the heresy that don't in 40k, and a lot of 40k era stuff that hadn't been invented at the time of the heresy.
Also, legion organization can be quite different than SM chapter organization. For example, the closest thing in structure to a 40k tactical squad are the 30k veteran squads. 30k tac squads are bigger (10-20) and have no special/heavy weapons. Support squads and heavy weapon squads are ALL armed with special/heavy weapons, rather than just a few guys in the squad.
Stuff like that.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain all that, but I gotta be honest, being unfamiliar with both the 40k game and fluff, none of that makes any sense to me. I think I'll start with the first Horus Heresy novel and see how that goes. I'm not sure the rumors about 30k being a third pillar to replace LotR makes sense, as the lay person (like me) can't tell them apart. It's like trying to explain the difference between Power Rangers to someone. This one has dinosaurs, man. That one also has dinosaurs, but it's like, different dinosaurs.
shade1313 wrote: It's 10,000 years before 40k. The main forces during the Heresy itself are mostly SM legions against SM legions, with some Imperial Army and Mechanicum/Dark Mechanicum thrown in as well. There are a LOT of units/weapons that exist during the heresy that don't in 40k, and a lot of 40k era stuff that hadn't been invented at the time of the heresy.
Also, legion organization can be quite different than SM chapter organization. For example, the closest thing in structure to a 40k tactical squad are the 30k veteran squads. 30k tac squads are bigger (10-20) and have no special/heavy weapons. Support squads and heavy weapon squads are ALL armed with special/heavy weapons, rather than just a few guys in the squad.
Stuff like that.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain all that, but I gotta be honest, being unfamiliar with both the 40k game and fluff, none of that makes any sense to me. I think I'll start with the first Horus Heresy novel and see how that goes. I'm not sure the rumors about 30k being a third pillar to replace LotR makes sense, as the lay person (like me) can't tell them apart. It's like trying to explain the difference between Power Rangers to someone. This one has dinosaurs, man. That one also has dinosaurs, but it's like, different dinosaurs.
Fair enough. I know I could write something much more in-depth, but I just quickly glossed over some of the setting differences, and some of the in-game differences.
Oh, and as others have said, regarding other forces...Tau are still primitive, if they've even evolved into recognizable versions of their species yet. Tyranids have not yet made it to the galaxy. Necrons have not started waking, yet. The traitor legions are proto-Chaos Space Marines, so are still very much similar to the loyalists. The Age of Apostasy has not yet happened (hell, the Ecclesiarchy doesn't exist yet), so no Sisters of Battle, yet. The Inquisition also doesn't yet exist, nor the Gray Knights.
shade1313 wrote: It's 10,000 years before 40k. The main forces during the Heresy itself are mostly SM legions against SM legions, with some Imperial Army and Mechanicum/Dark Mechanicum thrown in as well. There are a LOT of units/weapons that exist during the heresy that don't in 40k, and a lot of 40k era stuff that hadn't been invented at the time of the heresy.
Also, legion organization can be quite different than SM chapter organization. For example, the closest thing in structure to a 40k tactical squad are the 30k veteran squads. 30k tac squads are bigger (10-20) and have no special/heavy weapons. Support squads and heavy weapon squads are ALL armed with special/heavy weapons, rather than just a few guys in the squad.
Stuff like that.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain all that, but I gotta be honest, being unfamiliar with both the 40k game and fluff, none of that makes any sense to me. I think I'll start with the first Horus Heresy novel and see how that goes. I'm not sure the rumors about 30k being a third pillar to replace LotR makes sense, as the lay person (like me) can't tell them apart. It's like trying to explain the difference between Power Rangers to someone. This one has dinosaurs, man. That one also has dinosaurs, but it's like, different dinosaurs.
Fair enough. I know I could write something much more in-depth, but I just quickly glossed over some of the setting differences, and some of the in-game differences.
Oh, and as others have said, regarding other forces...Tau are still primitive, if they've even evolved into recognizable versions of their species yet. Tyranids have not yet made it to the galaxy. Necrons have not started waking, yet. The traitor legions are proto-Chaos Space Marines, so are still very much similar to the loyalists. The Age of Apostasy has not yet happened (hell, the Ecclesiarchy doesn't exist yet), so no Sisters of Battle, yet. The Inquisition also doesn't yet exist, nor the Gray Knights.
As of the Newcron fluff there are some Necrons that are awake. Very few (only a few worlds or few individuals), but there are some that have started awaking.
Whatever one may think about AoS, that style would work absolutely perfectly for 30k. If a Age of Horus type game came out, it would in no way preclude either continued support for 40k or FWHH stuff. If anything, all these things would synergize wonderfully. If you have an Age of Horus army, you would basically have a 40k army as well -- just as if you have a FWHH army now, you basically have a 40k army as well.
Most obviously, SM against SM battles would pose basically no balance issues. I don't want to get in a debate about AoS here but I think its set-up rules fit HH battles, too, especially since folks love to buy SM models. The open-ended army building in AoS would also fit nicely with the multi-Legion forces involved in some of the great HH-era battles. Finally, I think it is a great way to make the HH, which is a very popular aspect of the 40k IP, accessible to customers in a way that FW just is not.
I don't think it being SM vs SM means there's no balance issues. It makes it easier yeah, but you still have to balance the different units, weapons, characters etc with each other. I mean FWs rules aren't exactly perfectly balanced (though they aren't bad) even though it's SM vs SM.
Plus you just have to look at previous GW Space Marine codexes, they can't even balance them with each other most of the time. Look at DA in 6th edition, or BA now. I don't have much faith for GW to be able to balance even just Space Marines.
ImAGeek wrote: I don't think it being SM vs SM means there's no balance issues. It makes it easier yeah, but you still have to balance the different units, weapons, characters etc with each other. I mean FWs rules aren't exactly perfectly balanced (though they aren't bad) even though it's SM vs SM.
Well, but if this is a board game with mostly identical (and identical numbers of?) miniatures on either side (except Cataphractii & Contemptor?), moving (shooting, fighting) on board game squares? It's Space Hulk with mirror-factions! It'd be hard not to end up balanced.
You don't even need to tweak the missions ala Space Hulk, except where players use an asymetrical set-up. And even there, the capabilities per model (Power Armour + Bolter) are (nearly?) identical, so the basis to work from should be easier, no?
ImAGeek wrote: I don't think it being SM vs SM means there's no balance issues. It makes it easier yeah, but you still have to balance the different units, weapons, characters etc with each other. I mean FWs rules aren't exactly perfectly balanced (though they aren't bad) even though it's SM vs SM.
Well, but if this is a board game with mostly identical (and identical numbers of?) miniatures on either side (except Cataphractii & Contemptor?), moving (shooting, fighting) on board game squares? It's Space Hulk with mirror-factions! It'd be hard not to end up balanced.
You don't even need to tweak the missions ala Space Hulk, except where players use an asymetrical set-up. And even there, the capabilities per model (Power Armour + Bolter) are (nearly?) identical, so the basis to work from should be easier, no?
But that's different to the AoS system that Manchu reckons would be perfect for a Heresy game.
ImAGeek wrote: I don't think it being SM vs SM means there's no balance issues.
Well, first off,
Manchu wrote: SM against SM battles would pose basically no balance issues.
But sure, it won't be as balanced as rock-paper-scissors. I just don't see that as a meaningful concern. To the extent that any faction has options that others don't, there could be a balance issue; this isn't exclusive to AoS or GW games. But by and large, what is available to one Legion will be available to all.
ImAGeek wrote: I don't have much faith for GW to be able to balance even just Space Marines.
Well, that's a problem that has nothing to do with AoS or a HH game in its style. (Although I do wonder what precision-balanced GW games the folks who hate AoS because it's so "unbalanced" have been playing LOL.)
Wonderwolf wrote: I thought it was about the rumoured Heresy board game.
I am really hoping it isn't a board game. Execution Force was a mess. Sure, the assassin miniatures were okay (even if I personally dislike the mini-statue approach) but the component quality was very disappointing. Plus board games live and die on the strength of their rules ... and inventing innovative, robust mechanics is not GW's strong suit. AoS is the best they have done since LotRIMO (and I'm not saying AoS is marvelous, either).
ImAGeek wrote: I don't think it being SM vs SM means there's no balance issues.
Well, first off,
Manchu wrote: SM against SM battles would pose basically no balance issues.
But sure, it won't be as balanced as rock-paper-scissors. I just don't see that as a meaningful concern. To the extent that any faction has options that others don't, there could be a balance issue; this isn't exclusive to AoS or GW games. But by and large, what is available to one Legion will be available to all.
ImAGeek wrote: I don't have much faith for GW to be able to balance even just Space Marines.
Well, that's a problem that has nothing to do with AoS or a HH game in its style. (Although I do wonder what precision-balanced GW games the folks who hate AoS because it's so "unbalanced" have been playing LOL.)
Balance is more than just the external 'oh all legions have access to the same things' though. The units within the legion should be balanced against each other too. Otherwise you get some units never taken and some which are no brainers. That's just as unbalanced as one faction being better or worse than the others, in a different way.
And I don't think most people who don't play AoS because it's unbalanced play GW games at all.
Wonderwolf wrote: I thought it was about the rumoured Heresy board game.
I am really hoping it isn't a board game. Execution Force was a mess. Sure, the assassin miniatures were okay (even if I personally dislike the mini-statue approach) but the component quality was very disappointing. Plus board games live and die on the strength of their rules ... and inventing innovative, robust mechanics is not GW's strong suit. AoS is the best they have done since LotRIMO (and I'm not saying AoS is marvelous, either).
But "normal" Heresy rules (i.e. FW) are just GW40K 7th Edition rules with alt. army lists.
I strongly doubt they'd use a Heresy-box to launch 40K 8th/AoS-edition (nor have I seen rumours to that end)?
Also, Tau are allegedly coming out just before Heresy? Wouldn't it make sense to do Heresy first and Tau afterwards, if they'd use that release to AoS-ify 40K core rules? Otherwise, Tau would be outdated, no backward-compatibility, within a month or so. A tough sell even for GW.
ImAGeek wrote: Balance is more than just the external 'oh all legions have access to the same things' though.
Agreed but that is irrelevant to the point about AoS being a good fit. Internal balance issues plague many miniatures games, especially ones that emphasize game mastery design/list building.
ImAGeek wrote: And I don't think most people who don't play AoS because it's unbalanced play GW games at all.
Not true. Check out the AoS sub-forum ... or even threads where 40k players bemoan the idea that their game might get "AoS'd." Remarks to that effect have even been posted ITT.
Wonderwolf wrote: But "normal" Heresy rules (i.e. FW) are just GW40K 7th Edition rules with alt. army lists.
Yep, 40k 7E, FWHH books, and FWHH models already exist and they need not vanish if GW were to make an Age of Horus box/plastics line. In fact, the plastics would be entirely compatible with these existing products. More ways to use your toys! More incentive to expand your collection! Including into expensive resin models from FW!
We're talking about different things. I am not suggesting that GW is going to 'AoS-ify' 40k by releasing 30k models and a AoS-style ruleset to play with them.
ImAGeek wrote: Balance is more than just the external 'oh all legions have access to the same things' though.
Agreed but that is irrelevant to the point about AoS being a good fit. Internal balance issues plague many miniatures games, especially ones that emphasize game mastery design/list building.
Fair enough, good point. I just don't see how AoS is any better a system than any other system for balancing basically identical armies. Should it not be just as easy in any? Is your reasoning just based on the simplicity of AoS, or is there something else?
ImAGeek wrote: And I don't think most people who don't play AoS because it's unbalanced play GW games at all.
Not true. Check out the AoS sub-forum ... or even threads where 40k players bemoan the idea that their game might get "AoS'd." Remarks to that effect have even been posted ITT.
Well, that is pretty silly. Well, I can get why people wouldn't want a 40k ruleset like AoS, but not from a purely balance point of view because 40k can't get much worse there.
ImAGeek wrote: I just don't see how AoS is any better a system than any other system for balancing basically identical armies. Should it not be just as easy in any?
You're quite right. What I mean is, there have been a lot of complaints about hypothetical balance issues with AoS. This is often cited as a major disadvantage of AoS even by folks who concede AoS has some advantages, including its relative accessibility. My point is, this balance argument just doesn't really apply to Legion v Legion fighting. So you get all the advantages of AoS without its supposed worst disadvantage.
ImAGeek wrote: Well, I can get why people wouldn't want a 40k ruleset like AoS, but not from a purely balance point of view because 40k can't get much worse there.
So you are talking (ignoring the background for a sec) about a self-contained game in the box, largely independent of the current 40K game (including variant FW lists)? Except you'd prefer it to come without a cardboard board to be played on and use tape measures and hobby terrain instead?
Seems largely the same thing (outside of rumours that it allegedly does include Space Hulk/EF like cardboard). Nothing there that would make a game with cardboard intrinsically worse or better than one without, no?
AoS-debates aside, generally I would assume (but I am no game designer) that the more rigid format of a cardboard board with defined squares and distances would be easier to write than a "good" game accounting for all the vagaries of a player-made tables and terrain.
Fair enough then, I get where you're coming from now
I'm not sure I'd like an AoS type game for my 30k stuff but it won't matter as long as FW keep on with their stuff, and i don't see any reason not to try the AoS style version if that's what they do go with. With how slow I am with building and painting my stuff I'm not sure I'll even get to the gaming stage with my 30k stuff anyway!
I don't want a board game at all, not from GW, no thanks. I want a miniatures game.
What I would like to see is something like the AoS box but with SM sprues (just like the ones in OP) and at minimum enough transfers to make up units from Loyalist and Traitor legions that fought at Isstvan V. And it should come with a AoS-style streamlined 4-page ruleset and a book with HH "warscrolls." Then, again like AoS, I would like to see GW support this with further plastic kits for the Legions.
This doesn't need to have anything to do with 40k and it wouldn't replace what FW is doing for the HH. The models would however be totally compatible with both.
But wouldn't that split the "Heresy-crowd" (even if it grows it a bit) between two systems, rather than funnel new customers into the FW hobby via a board-game "kickstart"?
[edit]
And FW's Heresy army lists are still tied to 40K. If GW would ever decide (or already decided) to AoS-ify 40K, as many fear and some highly questionable rumours claim, it would apply to any and all FW-lists for alternative "historical" periods of the 40K-game anyhow.
Wonderwolf wrote: But wouldn't that split the "Heresy-crowd" (even if it grows it a bit) between two systems, rather than funnel new customers into the FW hobby via a board-game "kickstart"?
I don't think so. To me, this just gives the customer more options. Do you want to play a relatively simple game with plastic miniatures? Okay, check. Do you want to play a more complicated game with plastic miniatures but also some expensive resin ones as well. Again, check. Or maybe you want to buy all of it and mix it up both ways. Check again! Check check check. And make your checks payable to GW.
Wonderwolf wrote: If GW would ever decide (or already decided) to AoS-ify 40K
The internet has a special way of enticing hysteria. I really doubt 40k is going anywhere (even though AoS seems inspired to some degree by how 40k has been developed since 5E).
I just feel like GW doesn't like to have too many games around. Ultimately, they (allegedly) killed off (not-strictly limited) specialist games, because they felt/feared these "cannibalized" their main-games.
They certainly didn't go down with the "options-route" for Fantasy, offering both WFB and (!) Age of Sigmar to cater to different tastes/more variety in gaming (though AoS's "base-neutral" design would, in theory, allow it, notwithstanding the new marketing of everything on round bases).
It seems more in line with GW's general behaviour to throw out a (admittedly likely uninspired) board game with cool dual-use minis for a limited time and think about anything else next quarter, as well as to go all-out, burn-all-bridges if (a very big if!!) they'd decide to go AoS on 40K, than return to a larger portfolio of games.
Of course, GW's past is only always a very unreliable indicator of the future.
Manchu wrote: How would "Age of Horus" cannibalize 40k?
I dunno. How would WFB have been hurt, if they'd kept it around along with AoS? How did Necromunda or Gorka Morka hurt 40K? How was it bad to have Apoc (Formations, Superheavies, CtA-allies) separate and optional, instead of bringing everything "into one game"?
Also, if this was truly a "full" third game for GW, and not just the same "slot" as Space Hulk last year, wouldn't it be coming out next summer instead? Not to mention a bigger "End Times-style" build-up to market/prepare for a full third game?
2015 - Age of Sigmar 1st
2016 - Age of Horus 1st
2017 - 40K 8th
There is one huge distinction between a prospective Age of Horus game and all previous specialist games: Space Marine sales. Add to that, from the mass market fiction perspective, HH sales. How did Specialist Games hurt 40k? By creating costs unjustified by profits for a company that can't afford many costs. This would not likely be an issue for a line of plastic Legionaries (marketed with super accessible rules) that could also be used with 40k or FW 30k.
Hve to agree, a Horus game in an AOS style would have no effect on 40K itself, they are different enough gameplay wise, other than perhaps selling 30K style marines to 40K players, which makes no difference to GW, a 10 man squad sale is a 10 man squad sale whatever you do with it.
It could also benefit Forgeworld 30K by provding a cheaper way to the bare bones of a 30K army. Forgeworld may sell less resin marines, but I have a feeling that as a business, that may not be so bad.
Having more production time for the larger profit stuff rather than churning out base space marine bodies is probably the other aim of this move from a management perspective.
NoggintheNog wrote: Hve to agree, a Horus game in an AOS style would have no effect on 40K itself, they are different enough gameplay wise, other than perhaps selling 30K style marines to 40K players, which makes no difference to GW, a 10 man squad sale is a 10 man squad sale whatever you do with it.
It could also benefit Forgeworld 30K by provding a cheaper way to the bare bones of a 30K army. Forgeworld may sell less resin marines, but I have a feeling that as a business, that may not be so bad.
Having more production time for the larger profit stuff rather than churning out base space marine bodies is probably the other aim of this move from a management perspective.
All of these benefits apply equally to a Heresy board game with the rumoured contents.
Plus the fact that the Harry/Hastings rumours said it is a board game, rumours broke along with the EF-rumours, the Space Hulk release slot, the intentional cave/space corridor theme, the way GW choose to replace WFB, instead of adding AoS as option, the probable lack of sales data from AoS at the time this box was conceived, etc.. all seem to point towards a board game.
I am not saying the AoS-variant absolutely is impossible.
Just less likely and not corroborated by any of the half-way reliable rumours and much more "preference-biased" than the board game rumours (which nobody is "keen" on (not least because recent GW board games are gak and few people seemingly want to pay extra for cardboard they may not use) in the way Manchu seems personally hoping for an AoS-Heresy, but seem to be rumoured nonetheless, which makes them less likely to be a case of wish-listing gone rogue).
If it turns out to be basicly '30k-spacehulk' then i'm happy.
Cheap MK4 marines and a pseudo zone-mortalis 'boarding action' game on the side will be 'win' for me, but AoS-ing 40k via a heresy themed box-set would suck balls, just 'cause that changes 30k by default as it uses the 40k rulebook.
Having whinged that, i would just carry on using the 6th edition rulebook like i am now.
Maybe the cardboard terrain will be something like 1 foot by 1 foot square sections that can be set up several ways like the Zone Mortalis stuff from FW? Along the board to be set up several ways with various walled off corridors and such. This would make sense along with force organization from Zone Mortalis where attacker has 1 HQ & 1 Elite while defender has 1 HQ & 1 Troop. Based upon the rumors of the minis in the box, the equal load out of marines and termies with HQ would allow both legions to be able to play both the role of attacker and defender but still keep it asymmetrical for game play.
spect_spidey wrote: Maybe the cardboard terrain will be something like 1 foot by 1 foot square sections that can be set up several ways like the Zone Mortalis stuff from FW? Along the board to be set up several ways with various walled off corridors and such. This would make sense along with force organization from Zone Mortalis where attacker has 1 HQ & 1 Elite while defender has 1 HQ & 1 Troop. Based upon the rumors of the minis in the box, the equal load out of marines and termies with HQ would allow both legions to be able to play both the role of attacker and defender but still keep it asymmetrical for game play.
bubber wrote: I would love to see an HH board game - maybe a boarding assault based scenario.
Also FW is GW so if GW change 40K to AoS, FW will too.
Forgeworld has released their own game before (Aeronautica), so it is within the realm of possibility they might publish their own rules for "advanced 30K". Not likely, to be sure, but still possible.
Anyway, the sad part about all of these new plastics is that I largely won't need then. Already have my pre-heresy Emperor's Children kitted out in mostly Mk3 armor. Not sure if I would try a different legion using these plastics.
No they replaced it with AoS because they were apparently incapable of exploiting their own well-known IP competently so had to blow everything up and start over in an attempt to generate "buzz".
If it sells, you make more of it. If it doesn't sell, you scrap it. Even GW can follow that kind of logic.
And yet you cannot follow mine, it seems. Why something sells is as important to making decisions about the future as the fact it sold in the first place. Maybe I'm expressing myself poorly; I'll lay out a scenario to illustrate what I mean(and yes, it is essentially a "worst case" scenario - I am not making any predictions, this is purely to try and make my point clearer):
AoS is released, GW note that the starter box sells well. In the following months, sales of the newer kits are not quite as high as they expected, but large amounts of existing WHFB model stock is selling at much higher volumes than in recent years and with the prices on the new kits they are still nice & profitable. This goes on for several months.
"Age of Heresy" is released, GW note that the boxed set sells extremely well. They follow up the boxed set a couple of months later with individual boxes of Heresy-era plastic troops, which also sell extremely well.
Now, at that point, according to "if it sells, make more" logic, from GW's perspective the rational thing to conclude would be that AoS-style products are wildly popular, so they should make more of them, no? So, transitioning FW's Heresy series(if it's allowed to continue) to using the new rules as a basis seems like a solid idea, and if GW act as they usually do when a new "style" takes hold at the GW moat-surrounded bunker complex 40K would likely not be far behind.
And they could be completely right in that series of decisions, who knows. But that's the point; who knows? Not them, because they're not interested in why any of the things described above happened. So lets skip ahead; we're two years out from the release of AoS, a year & a half since "AoH", they've been moving FW's Heresy stuff over to the new "AoH" rules for the past couple of months, and stand ready to triumphantly release 8th Ed 40K, or "Age of Apocalypse".
Then AoS sales begin to slow down. Following the "AoH"-ification of FW30K, they also begin to slow. AoS sales begin to tank, drastically, footfall & sales figures for stores drop substantially. FW sales of resin Heresy start to decline. The new "Age of Apocalypse" style 40K release doesn't sell anything like what GW expect. GW look to the sky and, to the laughter of the uncaring gods, demand to know how? How could this have happened?
Because other factors are at play than simply whether or not a thing sells well. In the scenario, AoS was not nearly so popular as GW assumed from the initial sales, which were inflated by people finishing or enhancing existing collections without embracing AoS as a game & on finishing they drifted away, and by people buying the starter and a couple of boxes, sticking them on a shelf, and forgetting about them as so many Newshiny customers do, which is great for the bottom line right now but bloody terrible if your product is partly dependent on a social experience and thus network effects, ie to succeed long-term your ideal customer is someone who both buys and uses your product. "Age of Heresy" sales were similarly inflated by existing Heresy fans either completing/enhancing existing projects or starting their first Heresy army thanks to the relative affordability of starter-box plastics, with the actual "AoH" rules being incidental and irrelevant to the sales in most cases.
They could end up better of, or worse off, or roughly equivalent to where they stand today, but I hope the example serves to illustrate how it's entirely possible when making decisions based on incomplete information to do things which seem entirely correct from your frame of reference at the time but which are in fact totally counter-productive, how in fact it is not utterly implausible that GW, a company not known for restraint or consistency of approach and who proudly avow they do no market research, could draw false conclusions from the initial sales of specific products(ie early AoS kits & the "AoH" boxed set) that would lead them to make decisions that people currently see as wildly implausible - which was how this whole blood thing started in the first place, with perfectly legitimate concerns about the future of a product people enjoy being dismissed as mindless scaremongering.
bubber wrote: I would love to see an HH board game - maybe a boarding assault based scenario.
Also FW is GW so if GW change 40K to AoS, FW will too.
Forgeworld has released their own game before (Aeronautica), so it is within the realm of possibility they might publish their own rules for "advanced 30K". Not likely, to be sure, but still possible.
Anyway, the sad part about all of these new plastics is that I largely won't need then. Already have my pre-heresy Emperor's Children kitted out in mostly Mk3 armor. Not sure if I would try a different legion using these plastics.
I've already got the bulk of my preheresy Salamanders via FW. These, however, will be perfect for also doing Alpha Legion.
Interestingly, there have been new rumor posts from Lords of War Gaming on their FB account - including this post commenting on the upcoming HH release from GW
Lords of War Gaming:
November or December. No rule details, but it's GW's version of HH.
LoWG are very reliable (see Pretre's rumor tracker) and it's good that they are back posting some info here and there.
A date would be nice, i am worried about the price, Assassinorum: Execution Force had not much content but was already 150$ so how expensive will this be?
Wintermute (Warseer Admin) posted tonight about the HH game
Originally Posted by RTB01
is there any other info you can give us at this time
Originally Posted by Wintermute
Yes there is.
According to my sources: the rules are not 8th Ed and they haven't been Sigmared/simplified. The major difference is that the 'read this first' sections and the reference cards have simple to follow tables. For example the BS rule instead of being the traditional 'BS3 =4+' style in fact has the BS as '4+'. All other rules are as per 7th edition which will also be in the box.
angelofvengeance wrote: I think the Battle of Phall seems more likely. If they were Wobbies there'd be a gak load of scripture-y bits on the models.
Not if they're just normal marines, you can paint/transfer them on. I mean we've seen the sprues and there's no iconography on the models at all, I'm not sure why there'd have to be scripture sculpted in for WBs if there isn't the Ultramarine symbol (or IW, or IF or whatever) on the ones we've seen. I'm guessing they'll be plain but painted on the box as UM and WB, and with transfers for them in the box. That way people who play any legion will be more inclined to buy it, not just people who play the legions on the box.
And don't forget they are supposedly being released after separately .so covering them with legion specific detail would reduce sale opportunities.they can allways make legion specific upgrade packs .
Especially since the Battle of Phall takes place in its entirety as a voidbattle in interplanetary space, not much room for pushing the RoB-boards and terrainkits there!
Also, do you really think they could resist doing something with the Ultramarines Legion? Those guys where holed up in the galactic south-east for almost the entire Heresy and the big events there where Calth and the Shadow Crusade.
Especially since the Battle of Phall takes place in its entirety as a voidbattle in interplanetary space, not much room for pushing the RoB-boards and terrainkits there!
Also, do you really think they could resist doing something with the Ultramarines Legion? Those guys where holed up in the galactic south-east for almost the entire Heresy and the big events there where Calth and the Shadow Crusade.
I will point out that a good portion of the Imperial Fists kits on FW are in Mk IV armor. The IF Command set and Phalanx Warders are in IV.
Regardless of what comes out, I am going to be buying as many Imperial Fists Mk IV Shoulder armies as required and making this kit into Crimson Fists. Love Mk IV. It will help me complete my Battle Company at that too.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I will point out that a good portion of the Imperial Fists kits on FW are in Mk IV armor. The IF Command set and Phalanx Warders are in IV.
Regardless of what comes out, I am going to be buying as many Imperial Fists Mk IV Shoulder armies as required and making this kit into Crimson Fists. Love Mk IV. It will help me complete my Battle Company at that too.
And there's a lot of examples of Iron Warriors in MkIV in Extermination too.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I will point out that a good portion of the Imperial Fists kits on FW are in Mk IV armor. The IF Command set and Phalanx Warders are in IV.
Regardless of what comes out, I am going to be buying as many Imperial Fists Mk IV Shoulder armies as required and making this kit into Crimson Fists. Love Mk IV. It will help me complete my Battle Company at that too.
And there's a lot of examples of Iron Warriors in MkIV in Extermination too.
So wouldn't that make IF and IW at least plausible, if not quite likely?
casvalremdeikun wrote: I will point out that a good portion of the Imperial Fists kits on FW are in Mk IV armor. The IF Command set and Phalanx Warders are in IV.
Regardless of what comes out, I am going to be buying as many Imperial Fists Mk IV Shoulder armies as required and making this kit into Crimson Fists. Love Mk IV. It will help me complete my Battle Company at that too.
And there's a lot of examples of Iron Warriors in MkIV in Extermination too.
So wouldn't that make IF and IW at least plausible, if not quite likely?
Not really.
If I'm GW, I'm making an HH game that includes their most iconic legion (Ultramarines) in a setting that allows for Fleet to Fleet Boarding Actions as well as ground based assaults for the modeling (dudes, tanks, dreadnoughts, fliers), terrain (Space corridors, caves/tunnels, city fight, etc), and potential expansion possibilities rather than two second-rate legions that duked it out in space Battle Fleet Gothic style and had few boarding actions (per the novelette The Crimson Fists).
And I say this as a big fan of Dorn and the Imperial Fists.
My only concern about the plastic HH stuff is the scale of the infantry. I'm guessing they'll be 40K-compatible, and those plastics are sized differently than the 30K resin minis. I'll probably end up having to stick with the resin. Plastic vehicles would be *great* though, and plastic infantry could work for second, adversary army.
This all assumes current gw writers have read the fluff of the Horus heresy :p knowing how the current fluff constantly is butchered we will probably get marneus calgar vs lorgar
Kirasu wrote: This all assumes current gw writers have read the fluff of the Horus heresy :p knowing how the current fluff constantly is butchered we will probably get marneus calgar vs lorgar
If GW ruins HH I will quit wargaming. There will be nothing left that interests me and that I have faith in.
My only concern about the plastic HH stuff is the scale of the infantry. I'm guessing they'll be 40K-compatible, and those plastics are sized differently than the 30K resin minis. I'll probably end up having to stick with the resin. Plastic vehicles would be *great* though, and plastic infantry could work for second, adversary army.
My only concern about the plastic HH stuff is the scale of the infantry. I'm guessing they'll be 40K-compatible, and those plastics are sized differently than the 30K resin minis. I'll probably end up having to stick with the resin. Plastic vehicles would be *great* though, and plastic infantry could work for second, adversary army.
There's enough variation in Space Marine size mentioned in the models, I don't think it will matter that much. Just mix them in together and it should be fine.
My only concern about the plastic HH stuff is the scale of the infantry. I'm guessing they'll be 40K-compatible, and those plastics are sized differently than the 30K resin minis. I'll probably end up having to stick with the resin. Plastic vehicles would be *great* though, and plastic infantry could work for second, adversary army.
There's enough variation in Space Marine size mentioned in the models, I don't think it will matter that much. Just mix them in together and it should be fine.
Nah, if they're scaled like the plastics, there'll be a noticeable difference. To me at least, which is enough. Plus the FW resin models are superior in sculpt quality anyway. But I still think this is all a really good thing.
My only concern about the plastic HH stuff is the scale of the infantry. I'm guessing they'll be 40K-compatible, and those plastics are sized differently than the 30K resin minis. I'll probably end up having to stick with the resin. Plastic vehicles would be *great* though, and plastic infantry could work for second, adversary army.
There's enough variation in Space Marine size mentioned in the models, I don't think it will matter that much. Just mix them in together and it should be fine.
Nah, if they're scaled like the plastics, there'll be a noticeable difference. To me at least, which is enough. Plus the FW resin models are superior in sculpt quality anyway. But I still think this is all a really good thing.
There are countless different things they could do. I dare not even speculate - I'd rather just go with hoping they don't.
Well, never say never, but I doubt releasing plastic HH-era SM will ruin the HH. If anything, doing so will make the HH accessible in game form, which it currently really isn't, to folks who enjoy the era. As a setting for storytelling, HH has proven even more popular than 40k. Looking at that, and SM sales compared to non-SM sales, doing plastic Legions is just a no-brainer. It should also be a no-brainer to let Alan Bligh write whatever fluff is packed with them, but of course we won't know who wrote it in this era of work sans credit.
Space Marines, Space Marines, Space Marines!!!
this is the most excited i have been since waiting to see how the DV starter would turn out, and man was i impressed with those minis...
these look even better, because mkiv is my favorite, and the characters are not Dark Angels...
this has me even more excited than the new Vindicare and Eversor Assassins from the "Whole Mess of Ninjas" (credit to Kid Kyoto) game a few months ago did...
those two plastic Praetors teased on page 1 are so awesome...
still, there is just something more inspiring about the way FW resin shows detail...
i couldn't choose one material over the other, so it'll have to be both...
My only concern about the plastic HH stuff is the scale of the infantry. I'm guessing they'll be 40K-compatible, and those plastics are sized differently than the 30K resin minis. I'll probably end up having to stick with the resin. Plastic vehicles would be *great* though, and plastic infantry could work for second, adversary army.
There's enough variation in Space Marine size mentioned in the models, I don't think it will matter that much. Just mix them in together and it should be fine.
Nah, if they're scaled like the plastics, there'll be a noticeable difference. To me at least, which is enough. Plus the FW resin models are superior in sculpt quality anyway. But I still think this is all a really good thing.
The scale of the Forge World resin Space Marines is the same as the plastic ones. They're just posed better; more often with their legs not as far apart, thus giving the illusion of extra height. The only exception has been a recent up-scale in some of the character models such as Autilon Skorr, Zardu Lyak, and Alexis Pollux, but this is likely just to signify their character status and make them look more impressive on the tabletop.
Here's a picture of one of the aforementioned "upscaled" Astartes next to a normal Marine model. He's getting a tiny bit of extra height because of the tack, but it's still a noticeable size difference:
If only they were *all* like that. GW can definitely do it, the Dark Vengeance Chosen are aboht that size (as well as being beautiful sculpts themselves)
H.B.M.C. wrote: Tiny? His legs are longer!!! The top of the plastic Marine's head only goes up to the start of the FW Marine's neck!!!
No, no, no. He's definitely much taller, I was just pointing out that he's a tiny bit taller than he would be if he didn't have the little bit of tack under his feet as he does in the pictures. He's still much taller even without the tack.
SickSix wrote: Holy crap they are HUGE! I had no idea. Are they all like this?
Accolade wrote: Dear God, those better-sized Space Marines might actually get me to collect a legion!
No, the normal Forge World Astartes are not that big, unfortunately. They're the same size as the plastic Space Marines except with better leg poses. The pictured Marine represents a trend in some of the character models that's been happening lately, where they are closer to "truescale" than the normal plastic and resin Marines. It's likely that the plastic HH will be the size of the smaller Marines, but the pic just give you an idea of what we might expect from character/HQ models in the plastic HH range.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Tiny? His legs are longer!!! The top of the plastic Marine's head only goes up to the start of the FW Marine's neck!!!
No, no, no. He's definitely much taller, I was just pointing out that he's a tiny bit taller than he would be if he didn't have the little bit of tack under his feet as he does in the pictures. He's still much taller even without the tack.
SickSix wrote: Holy crap they are HUGE! I had no idea. Are they all like this?
Accolade wrote: Dear God, those better-sized Space Marines might actually get me to collect a legion!
No, the normal Forge World Astartes are not that big, unfortunately. They're the same size as the plastic Space Marines except with better leg poses. The pictured Marine represents a trend in some of the character models that's been happening lately, where they are closer to "truescale" than the normal plastic and resin Marines. It's likely that the plastic HH will be the size of the smaller Marines, but the pic just give you an idea of what we might expect from character/HQ models in the plastic HH range.
But who IS that big guy. I've seen the miniature a few times in various places online, but for the life of me I can't find it on FW.
Manchu wrote: If SM end up Sigmarine-sized, imagine how big Terminators will be!
Power Armor will be terminators.
Terminators will be Dreadnoughts.
Dreadnoughts will be Knights.
Knights will be Warhounds.
Catachans will still be too tall.
"Rar! Look at my huge, beefy arms!"
Still, looking forward to this release, even if it ends up being a board game with card-stock space corridors.
As long as you take the art as true (and this was one of my old favorites from third edition), astartes terminators will be around centurion sized but smaller than dreads and normal humans in terminator armor around an astartes size. I like how that ends up personally but I'm a bit biased.
There are countless different things they could do. I dare not even speculate - I'd rather just go with hoping they don't.
I heard that in order to avoid giving any screen time to the hated traitor legions they're gonna have the Crimson Slaughter use the Warp to go back in time and fight the Ultramarines at Calth instead of the Word Bearers. The Ultramarines easily defeat them since they're a legion and like over 250x bigger. This change in the spacetime continuity enables the Ultramarines to be present at the Siege of Terra too! True story bro.
SickSix wrote: Holy crap they are HUGE! I had no idea. Are they all like this?
No, the rank & file marines are the same scale, but posed much better than the GW plastics; so they look slighly taller.
As Darth Rob said in his post, this is a "scaled up" style that FW is starting to do with some Characters. (This model is an event exclusive figure with a head swap.)
[snip]
The only exception has been a recent up-scale in some of the character models such as Autilon Skorr, Zardu Lyak, and Alexis Pollux, but this is likely just to signify their character status and make them look more impressive on the tabletop.
[snip]
This definitely appeals to me. I've been following all of the forge world releases really closely, but have never bought anything other than a few of the HH books because the cost is just too high.
In particular, the cost of the troops really put me off. If this means that I can buy the core of an HH army for a decent price I'd be more happy to spend money on the flashy stuff.
As others have said, this is the strategy GW are pursuing with this move - and it's one that I like.
Bronzefists42 wrote: Also the model was an Alpha Legion member, who fluff wise are taller than regular marines.
Smaller, they are smaller "growth inhibiting enzymes" from deliverance lost.
Depends on which story you want to use - the IA article on the Legion states that Alpha Legion marines are all unusually tall, like their Primarch, who is almost as tall as Horus!
Bronzefists42 wrote: Also the model was an Alpha Legion member, who fluff wise are taller than regular marines.
Smaller, they are smaller "growth inhibiting enzymes" from deliverance lost.
Depends on which story you want to use - the IA article on the Legion states that Alpha Legion marines are all unusually tall, like their Primarch, who is almost as tall as Horus!
I always took it as a balance between the two; that Alpharius was shorter than the average Primarch and the Alpha Legion Astartes were taller than the average Space Marine. So it kind of balances out. Honestly, the scale/size that Autilon Skorr is at would be about how tall I'd want Alpharius to be. Unless the Skorr model is the Alpharius model, and they just decided to release him under a fake name as a covert Primarch release.
ImAGeek wrote: I wasn't talking about him... Someone asked who Skorr was, the AL guy. The post directly above mine.
My bad, I tried pretty hard to work out what you were talking about but it's confusing in here. To me, I read people talking about "Who's the big guy" - and the only image I've seen in the last few pages was Zardu Layak - followed by "Event exclusive model". Someone else later on mentions Skorr.
ImAGeek wrote: I wasn't talking about him... Someone asked who Skorr was, the AL guy. The post directly above mine.
My bad, I tried pretty hard to work out what you were talking about but it's confusing in here. To me, I read people talking about "Who's the big guy" - and the only image I've seen in the last few pages was Zardu Layak - followed by "Event exclusive model". Someone else later on mentions Skorr.
There was a photo of Skorr next to a plastic marine on the last page (or a couple back). No worries, I should've quoted the post really but I couldn't be bothered to prune it down to the relevant bit and it was quite big.
Alpharius wrote: Depends on which story you want to use - the IA article on the Legion states that Alpha Legion marines are all unusually tall, like their Primarch, who is almost as tall as Horus!
Contradictory information regarding the Alpha Legion? Impossible!
ImAGeek wrote: I wasn't talking about him... Someone asked who Skorr was, the AL guy. The post directly above mine.
My bad, I tried pretty hard to work out what you were talking about but it's confusing in here. To me, I read people talking about "Who's the big guy" - and the only image I've seen in the last few pages was Zardu Layak - followed by "Event exclusive model". Someone else later on mentions Skorr.
There was a photo of Skorr next to a plastic marine on the last page (or a couple back). No worries, I should've quoted the post really but I couldn't be bothered to prune it down to the relevant bit and it was quite big.
...that would be the picture that I thought was of Zardu Layak. Why were people talking about Zardu Layak? It's not him. I need coffee.
Bronzefists42 wrote: Also the model was an Alpha Legion member, who fluff wise are taller than regular marines.
Smaller, they are smaller "growth inhibiting enzymes" from deliverance lost.
Depends on which story you want to use - the IA article on the Legion states that Alpha Legion marines are all unusually tall, like their Primarch, who is almost as tall as Horus!
I always took it as a balance between the two; that Alpharius was shorter than the average Primarch and the Alpha Legion Astartes were taller than the average Space Marine. So it kind of balances out. Honestly, the scale/size that Autilon Skorr is at would be about how tall I'd want Alpharius to be. Unless the Skorr model is the Alpharius model, and they just decided to release him under a fake name as a covert Primarch release.
That actually gells much better, as the genetic markers were found in the primarch project, so small alpha, big legion.
So, ahh, are we done with the GW rumours? It really seems like we are...make a compelling argument before I head off to the footy tonight or else I'll lock it up and we can start a new thread when more rumours eventually arrive
This thread is certainly unwieldy and probably needs to be closed. But we will need to start a new one because this is the biggest GW-related rumor going and folks will come to Dakka N&R expecting to read about and discuss this topic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay new thread started here:
