I wasn't directly referring to his art in the Daemon Codex. Just that the Daemon Codex itself is just a horrible pile of trash as far as artistic design. It had enough blank space to put 3 other codex inside. It was all unfinished black and white art that was shoved into the corners of almost entirely blank pages. I was able to photocopy the pages and cut out all relevant info and put them on 4 pieces of paper.
You must have a very different version of the book than I do.
The point I was making is that John Blanches artwork has no place in published warhammer books unless it is specifically about his style and notes
This is, however, directly referring to his work. And I very much disagree.
See that dot between the statement about Blanche and the statement about the codex. That's called a period. It separates two sentences. Each sentence is a different issue. The codex I'm refering to was the last soft cover version before the current hardback.
You have every right to disagree but no amount of reasoning will change my blind hatred for Blanches work.
Again, STAY ON TOPIC! Enough about Blanche and his coffee stains.
I remember my first impression of them a long time ago, and I thought along similar lines. But when I went back and looked at the models again I was surprised at how tame I now feel they are.
Like I said, they're not very sexy for all they're trying to be. 5th edition Daemonettes were a great line of models, and all they wore was basically a loincloth. They weren't PC but they weren't ashamed of not being PC. The bondage sisters are 'just PC enough' to avoid angry moms calling GW to complain, while trying very hard to be 'suggestive' - thus the 'mistress' with her whips and all.
There's so much potential for good models here. The image of the girl clad only in sacred scrolls is a powerful one, but you could easily put them in flowing white robes (which would have awesome potential for painted blood spatter, or look luminous if painted cleanly), or sisters military dress uniform (shaved head, beret, etcetera) and they'd look sharply professional, for suicide troops.
You could also have professional looking sisters in training that haven't earned their sacred bolter/armor yet. The range needs some expanding, after all.
Political correctness is using language, policies, measures, etc that are intended not to offend or disadvantage any particular group of people in society. For some reason that makes some people very angry.
Manchu wrote:For those who think the Sisters are obscure, doomed, or desperate for a complete revamp - take note that GW considers their current (YES CURRENT) iteration to be iconic enough to feature in the panoply of their IP at the Licensing Trade Show And Expo this year.
As much as I think GW will eventually revamp the sisters line, I wouldn't take this as any indication of their intent. Fact is, they probably just felt they needed a female presence in their line up of artwork to present a more diverse line up. And that particular Sisters artwork is bloody good lets be honest.
Cheesecat wrote: Political correctness is using language, policies, measures, etc that are intended not to offend or disadvantage any particular group of people in society. For some reason that makes some people very angry.
Alternately: 'political correctness' is wasting time and energy manufacturing reasons to be offended and censoring language because of it.
As with anything political correctness is perfectly reasonable when applied sensibly but can be overdone to the point of absurdity.
Because political correctness is the biggest contender to free speech. Free speech is the most fundamental principle of most western countrys. In Germany for example you can loose your job if you talk "incorrect" on social media.This is bad and this makes me angry. Problem is if you can't talk about problems because some persons would be offended, you will never be able to solve such problems. Nowadays it seems more important to not hurt ones feelings than the truth and reality. This is think will be the downfall of western culture. I see it in germany.
Cheesecat wrote: Political correctness is using language, policies, measures, etc that are intended not to offend or disadvantage any particular group of people in society. For some reason that makes some people very angry.
Alternately: 'political correctness' is wasting time and energy manufacturing reasons to be offended and censoring language because of it.
As with anything political correctness is perfectly reasonable when applied sensibly but can be overdone to the point of absurdity.
Anon052 wrote: Because political correctness is the biggest contender to free speech. Free speech is the most fundamental principle of most western countrys. In Germany for example you can loose your job if you talk "incorrect" on social media.This is bad and this makes me angry. Problem is if you can't talk about problems because some persons would be offended, you will never be able to solve such problems. Nowadays it seems more important to not hurt ones feelings than the truth and reality. This is think will be the downfall of western culture. I see it in germany.
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence. You can say what you want but that doesn't mean it will be taken seriously, respected, cared for, liked, etc when you say something people around you have the right to react how they feel like. My level of tolerance can only go so
far after hearing your 5th exhaustive rant about how the world has gone to gak because there's interracial gay couples and transgender people, no one wants to work with some unbearable witch who makes them feel miserable.
It makes me more sad then angry. PC with something like a daemonette is anoying because one group want to control what others like, think, write and talk about. They want to enforce their opinion on others.
Everybody is free to believe what he wants, if an other persons doesn't share his believes he has to accept it. If you like it, great. If you don't like it, this is great too. I don't care as long as you don't force me to your (often) narrow views.
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence
Yes you are right. I never said otherwise. Taking personal responsibility is really important and a western "principle" too. Most persons who love PC (I have known) are often persons who can't accept that others don't like their actions and criticise them. It works both ways.
It makes me more sad then angry. PC with something like a daemonette is anoying because one group want to control what others like, think, write and talk about. They want to enforce their opinion on others.
Everybody is free to believe what he wants, if an other persons doesn't share his believes he has to accept it. If you like it, great. If you don't like it, this is great too. I don't care as long as you don't force me to your (often) narrow views.
Do you know if this actually happened? Because maybe GW wanted to update it because they felt like a new look, I mean that seems just as plausible.
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Manchu wrote: This tangent about political correctness and free speech is way off-topic. Please keep in mind that Rule Number Two is Stay On Topic. Thanks !
General Kroll wrote: Fact is, they probably just felt they needed a female presence in their line up of artwork to present a more diverse line up.
That is no bad thing! Licensees making RPGs, board games, and video games have female customers in mind now more than ever when it comes to developing products. If you are right, that means GW thinks Sisters (and let's stress: the current design of Sisters) are the key female protagonists of 40k, as far as marketing goes, sort of like how SM are the key male protagonists.
While plastic Sisters models may yet be a long way off, it is nice to see that GW thinks of them, as they currently are, as such a prominent part of their IP value.
General Kroll wrote: And that particular Sisters artwork is bloody good lets be honest.
THat piece of art is also a lot more subtle about it than some of the minis, especially a particular canoness mini I have in mind when people try to emphasize boob-cups.
Manchu wrote: No doubt new plastic miniatures could and would improve on the existing ones in a number of ways, without tinkering with the existing design.
I do not see how it is possible to improve something without changing it.
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Manchu wrote: (and let's stress: the current design of Sisters)
Well come on, if a licensing expo had been the catalyst of a redesign, I think people would have been more than a bit surprised.
Ashiraya wrote: I do not see how it is possible to improve something without changing it.
Creating a new sculpt does not mean creating a new design on which that sculpt is based.
Ashiraya wrote: if a licensing expo had been the catalyst of a redesign
Not sure what you are trying to argue here. That GW would not use this expo to unveil a redesign of SoB? Yeah, obviously. The fact that SoB get equal billing to SM at a licensing convention does show, however, that GW highly value SoB as part of their IP (which is their greatest asset).
The fact that SoB get equal billing to SM at a licensing convention does show, however, that GW highly value SoB as part of their IP (which is their greatest asset).
If we're going to be technical, the SM picture is wider.
Besides, WHFB got as much space as AoS did. I am not sure how much you can really take from this one expo.
Manchu wrote: No doubt new plastic miniatures could and would improve on the existing ones in a number of ways, without tinkering with the existing design.
I do not see how it is possible to improve something without changing it.
Even if they took the existing sculpts and switched them to plastic, there would be a number of improvements. A lot of the bolter models have side scope/sensors/filler between the gun and the torso, just to the limitations of the casting process. Some undercuts are fine, but that bolter needed to be part of the chest. You also run into problems where robes/tabards end up being a solid mass.
Switching to plastic, while not without drawbacks, dose free us from a lot of the artifacts of the old metal casting system.
Ashiraya wrote: I do not see how it is possible to improve something without changing it.
Creating a new sculpt does not mean creating a new design on which that sculpt is based.
I'd like the sisters to acquire some more bulk in terms of armor; aside from the Canoness and maybe some of the heavy weapons models, it's a bit too form-fitting. It's supposed to be power armor, after all.
Maybe not as bulky as this, but this looks like power armor to me.
John Prins wrote: I'd like the sisters to acquire some more bulk in terms of armor; aside from the Canoness and maybe some of the heavy weapons models, it's a bit too form-fitting.
It's supposed to be power armor, after all.
It's form-fitting because the girls are wearing latex fetish gear, not armor. At most, it's all leather. In 40k terms, it's syn-skin, same as what Imperial Assassins wear.
Sister Sin wears power armor. If we are going back to that look, it would be a major change. I might as well play my RT/2E metal beakies for the appropriate size / mass.
Sister Sin wears power armor. If we are going back to that look, it would be a major change. I might as well play my RT/2E metal beakies for the appropriate size / mass.
Sister Sin is pretty much wearing Marine armor. Sisters right now barely look like carapace armor with a heavy shoulder set and backpack.
There's probably a happy middle ground. Streamline the boob armor, thicken the waist, bulk up the hips a bit and put actual armor on the forearms and lower legs.
Both "options" are unnecessary. Whether you believe a Thunderhawk can actually fly, Space Marines can fit in a Rhino, or SoB power armor grants 3+ saves, here's what Sisters look like:
Thought you meant in terms of art - yep WHFB is listed there because the license is valuable. That doesn't diminish the fact that out of a handful of images to represent their IP, GW chose a giant, awesome picture that happens to be the current SoB dex cover.
Must be pretty hot underneath all that shaped ceramite plating
Outside of the torso and the very obtrusive breast plate, I think Sororitas Power Armour looks suitable for female soldiers who don't have Black Carapace enhancements or superhuman strength to carry regular Powered Armour. It's still using the same materials that goes into Astartes armour (and the same power source), so it's just as durable, but it cuts down on bulk by stripping out many of the support systems found in Space Marine Power Armour to make it light enough to carry, hence giving it its shape.
How did we even end up here anyways? Aren't we supposed to be talking about the feasibility of plastic SoB?
By definition, powered armor is... powered. Strength is a lot less of a factor for power armor wearers. And the black carapace doesn't increase strength while wearing power armor, it increases agility. I'm not arguing that Sisters need to look bulkier (rather, I think that they should go for more of a stylized medieval platemail look for the chestplate but otherwise it's perfectly okay), I'm just pointing out that your logic doesn't entirely work.
Melissia wrote:By definition, powered armor is... powered. Strength is a lot less of a factor for power armor wearers. And the black carapace doesn't increase strength while wearing power armor, it increases agility. I'm not arguing that Sisters need to look bulkier (rather, I think that they should go for more of a stylized medieval platemail look for the chestplate but otherwise it's perfectly okay), I'm just pointing out that your logic doesn't entirely work.
The armour does increase the strength of the Sister so that she can wield heavy weaponry more easily, however without the Black Carapace she cannot best capitalise on the suit's capabilities of enhancing her strength like a Space Marine can in his Power Armour. So in a sense, the Black Carapace does increase the user's strength when interfacing with Powered Armour, but not directly - it's function is primarily with operating other support systems that Sisters don't have access to.
I think a platemail chest piece would be pretty neat too - it just needs to reduce the obtrusion of the wearer's breasts, as even modern female soldiers wearing much more basic and "skintight" protection don't have their knockers on parade as a result of wearing body armour.
adamsouza wrote:Sisters could also be employing a more sophisticated design of power armor, that is not as bulky as Astartes armor.
Correct, to a degree - it's a much lighter suit than any of the regular marks of Adeptus Astartes Armour, but this is primarily because it sacrifices a lot of the auxiliary systems a Space Marine suit has since the Sisters can't use them without a Black Carapace implant.
General Annoyance wrote: The armour does increase the strength of the Sister so that she can wield heavy weaponry more easily, however without the Black Carapace she cannot best capitalise on the suit's capabilities of enhancing her strength like a Space Marine can in his Power Armour.
Black carapace still does not increase strength. Not even in conjunction with power armor. It simply does not do that. The sororitas power armor is not astartes power armor. Even if sororitas had black carapace, if they had sororitas power armor, they still would not have access to the strength enhancing capabilities of astartes power armor. Because sororitas power armor does not have that feature. Nor does black carapace.
Though Sororitas Power Armour provides the same level of protection as suits worn by the Space Marines, the lack of a Black Carapace means the Battle Sister cannot fully interface with the armour and so lacks the same strength enhancement and other advanced life-support features found in Astartes power armour. Still, Sororitas Power Armour does improve the user's strength and allows them to better handle heavy weapons more easily
The RPGs give different stats for 'powered armour' and 'Astartes powered armour'. Armour worn by Inquisitors, Battle Sisters, and other people who aren't cybered-up eight-foot transhuman killing machines is smaller.
Not sure how it is relevant to anything but the quotation as presented indicates that SoBPA does not enhance the wearer's strength to the same degree as SMPA because the Sister lacks a black carapace; not because the SoBPA itself is inferior to SMPA. (FYI - Lexicanum cites Dark Heresy: Blood of Martyrs for this point)
It clearly says sororitas power armor "lacks the same strength enhancement and other advanced life-support features found in Astartes power armour."
You know, exactly what I've been saying this entire time. The preceding bit about black carapace explains why it lacks some of the featurescommonly found in Astartes armor. But the core idea is that, since sororitas do not have black carapace, they don't have the features that require it in the armor. It's be wasteful to.
"the lack of a Black Carapace means the Battle Sister cannot fully interface with the armour and so"
Whether the two suits of PA provide the same amount of strength enhancement, all other things being equal, is not discussed one way or the other. But the quotation explicitly attributes the inferior strength enhancement of SoBPA to the Sisters' lack of Black Carapace. Probably not too well thought out (and grammatically problematic) but that's what it says. The best interpretation is probably: "this PA was designed for humans who do not have a black carapace so it was not designed to include the strength-enhancement capabilities that a human with a black carapace could use with different PA design."
Melissia wrote: Like the quote you gave said, the armor itself lacks the strength enhancements.
Does it?
"the lack of a Black Carapace means the Battle Sister cannot fully interface with the[as in her suit of Adeptus Sororitas] armour"
The only things that are lacking from Sororitas armour are the life support systems they cannot operate; it still has the same power source and I assume the same servos as Astartes armour.
So yes, I did read it. As for the throwing part well, my throwing arm has never been so good when it comes to these things
Could we perhaps go back to plastic Sisters and respect rule no.2? You made a good point about platemail chest pieces - GW would certainly need to reconsider a few design features of the old models if they were going to remake them, such as the aforementioned torso, as well as their heads, hairstyles and faces - the age of the cast is pretty obvious in that regard as the faces of the Battle Sisters can only be described as nightmare fuel. The question is, is all that effort worth any possible market for them?
Manchu wrote: You have left out the clause explaining why:
"the lack of a Black Carapace means the Battle Sister cannot fully interface with the armour and so"
Whether the two suits of PA provide the same amount of strength enhancement, all other things being equal, is not discussed one way or the other.
But the quotation explicitly attributes the inferior strength enhancement of SoBPA to the Sisters' lack of Black Carapace.
Probably not too well thought out (and grammatically problematic) but that's what it says.
I don't know about you but 40k canon is contradictory and problematic enough I prefer to patch the as-written answer with the sensible answer instead of debating the specific wording in the book.
AnomanderRake wrote: I prefer to patch the as-written answer with the sensible answer instead of debating the specific wording in the book.
Exactly what I am doing: The quoted source indicates SoBPA does not provide the same strength enhancement as SMPA because SoB lack the Black Carapace. Exactly why is a matter of speculation - from my POV, it is probably because the SoBPA was not designed for someone with a Black Carapace, who could obviously "get more" out of their PA. It would be useless to design PA with enhancements that only someone with Black Carapace could use if the actual intended wearer does not have a Black Carapace.
AnomanderRake wrote: I prefer to patch the as-written answer with the sensible answer instead of debating the specific wording in the book.
Exactly what I am doing: The quoted source indicates SoBPA does not provide the same strength enhancement as SMPA because SoB lack the Black Carapace. Exactly why is a matter of speculation - from my POV, it is probably because the SoBPA was not designed for someone with a Black Carapace, who could obviously "get more" out of their PA. It would be useless to design PA with enhancements that only someone with Black Carapace could use if the actual intended wearer does not have a Black Carapace.
We're arguing semantics back and forth from different angles. Melissa and I are saying that the armour is a distinct, lighter design because Sisters are smaller and less cybered. You and General Annoyance are saying that because the Sisters are smaller and less cybered the armour is a distinct, lighter design.
I always assumed that the Black Carapace made more efficient use of the servos in the armour as well as accessing the extra support systems rather than powering some kind of strength enhancer, with the latter function being the more important one to the Space Marine. I could be wrong in that regard, but while it makes sense to ditch the support systems, to reinvent the servos that power the armour in the first place sounds a little impractical, especially considering Sororitas armour shares the same materials and power source as Astartes armour.
AnomanderRake wrote: We're arguing semantics back and forth from different angles.
Sorry no - the claim was that the Black Carapace has nothing to do with strength enhancement of PA. Based on the quoted source, that is false.
General Annoyance wrote: to reinvent the servos that power the armour in the first place sounds a little impractical
What do you mean, reinvent them? I imagine the servos in each set of PA are distinct examples of the same technology, one is just higher performance (apparently allowed by the Black Carapace).
General Annoyance wrote: to reinvent the servos that power the armour in the first place sounds a little impractical
What do you mean, reinvent them?
As in making a completely different design for the functioning of the servos when they are activated with the power source. I always assumed that Power Armour consists of a frame that fits the wearer with all the servos that power the armour, with the actual armour panels layered over the top of it, kinda like Power Armour in the Fallout series. I'd assume Sororitas armour has the same inner workings as Space Marine Power Armour, just fitted better to a regular human shape, instead of a completely different system by which the armour becomes Power Armour.
I know there is an old diagram regarding Space Marine Power Armour - can anyone here source it? If there is some kind of strength enhancement built into the armour, then that will settle the argument here pretty fairly by supporting Mellisia and Rake's argument of its functioning.
It very, VERY clearly states the armor lacks certain features found in Astartes armor. Because having them would be pointless as sisters don't have black carapace.
I did not ignore the bit about the black carapace. I'm pointing out that it's probably not as bulky simply because it has fewer features. And the lore supports this. There's no other grammatically correct way to interpret that sentence.
This does sort of relate to the discussion about minis in the sense that honestly the more slender armor us perfectly okay
I don't want to see sisters gaining astartes style bulk. They need to keep their own style.
Regarding the chestplate idea I mentioned, look at their armor-- the legs, and arms especially. It gives a knightly feel. Feet look like plated boots, gloves look like brigantine gauntlets. Thus I think they should go with that sort of theme for updated minis. You could even say it's a new model of armor and the other one comes from the vandire era, keeping the old models legit.
I went digging through 1e Dark Heresy and that backs up General Annoyance's point, all 'power armour' provides basically the same strength benefit (most are +20 Strength, Sisters have a more specialized design that only provides +10 Strength for most uses but allows heavy weapons to always count as braced). The armouring, power supply, and secondary systems vary more widely (and Sororitas armour does have an infinite power supply, unlike most non-Astartes power armour).
(Amusingly based on the difference in stats and abilities between Astartes power armour (which doesn't auto-brace weapons) and Terminator armour (which does) that's an argument for Sisters all getting Relentless)
I certainly agree that SoBPA has fewer built-in features/systems than SMPA and that the bulkiness of SMPA is irrelevant to the size/shape of SoBPA. The comparison to SMPA has always been a red herring in these threads, IMO.
There is no way to deny that the shape of Sororitas armour is down to the fact that the systems from Astartes armour that they cannot operate have been trashed when the suit was first designed. The question was with whether the strength enhancement that Space Marines get from wearing their armour is down to an actual strength enhancement module in their design of armour, or whether the Black Carapace interfaces more effectively with the servos that are present in all the suit designs, which seems to be the case judging by what Rake managed to dig up.
Mel is right though, this does link into the design of the Adeptus Sororitas models the more I think about it. If they were going to be properly reintroduced into the production lines again, they'd need to keep their hails to their original designs close while also improving on the foibles of the original stuff. I think the Knightly theme would be perfect for them, perhaps combined with angelic themes, since it would both distinguish them from the Space Marines in an interesting way while also remaining close to the original concepts. Definitely improve on the chest piece, and also add plenty of trinkets and seals to their armour to reinforce their zealous nature.
Some new kinds of flamers would be cool too, or at the very least, a unique pattern of the standard flamer that would make you go "that's a Sororitas flamer" just like with their Bolters.
Definitely new units of course - I think the greatest potential for Sisters lies in their HQs; imagine something along the lines of this in terms of posture, only with a Canoness with a Power Sword and Inferno/Plasma Pistol. Holy hell that'd be an amazing model!
You could pass off the wings as some kind of Jump Pack. I dunno, forge the narrative in a good way for once!
Just something creative that makes the Sisters more badass than they already are. If, like Melissia said, they end up as female Space Marines, their whole point in terms of both the universe and as a collection that you paint and play with is totally lost.
Melissia wrote: It very, VERY clearly states the armor lacks certain features found in Astartes armor.
To backup this point, the Warhammer 40,000 Compilation gave Space Marines a +1 to hit in hand-to-hand combat but only for Space Marine Power Armour when it was worn by a Space Marine and not to other types of Power Armour or troops. This was to reflect "the rather special way" that Space Marine Power Armour is constructed to interact with the enhanced Space Marine body. It is also went on to say that Space Marine Power Armour is fitted with an automatic weight-compensator to off-set heavy weights by selectively boosting power to the arms as required. So yeah, basically Melissia is right, Marine Power Armour has all sorts of extra gadgets in and of itself, and it also works better because of the Black Carapace.
Naturally this would mean that Sororitas Power Armour wouldn't/doesn't need to be overly bulky; and the power of Powered Armour comes from muscle fibre bundles, something people often overlook, not great big clunky pistons and the like even when 'servos' are also present in the armour. I always imagine this would mean the 'powered' part of the armour would look like a nano-suit, quite form fitting, with the ceramite armour plates and other gadgets over the top. In Sororitas armour they could basically be fitted with the equivalent of nano-suit shorts and sleeves, enough to carry the weight of the armour plates but not much else, hence the corsets, gloves et cetera.
Manchu wrote: Both "options" are unnecessary. Whether you believe a Thunderhawk can actually fly, Space Marines can fit in a Rhino, or SoB power armor grants 3+ saves, here's what Sisters look like:
Yeah, that is one of my favorites. It's probably a good thing for me that GW doesn't seem to have any plans to release plastic Sisters soon - it's gonna be wallet killer.
This is what I'm talking about. Armor that doesn't look like form fitting leather, but has actual plates, and a bit of bulk to it. Note that the non-space marine power armor models (mostly inquisitors?) have some satisfying bulk to them while still looking remotely wearable.
@John Prins: don't Sisters already look just like that???
aside from the drawing having a much nicer face than the actual sculpts, of course hopefully, that would be an improvement that new sculpts would bring...
i really like the one pulling the pin on the grenade with her teeth, and the gas mask head on the heavy flamer, but some really need help, like the Superior with power sword...
jah-joshua wrote: @John Prins: don't Sisters already look just like that???
Nope. Look at the forearm - no long glove covering the forearm, there's a solid armor piece covering the entire forearm instead. The hand looks like an articulated armor gauntlet instead of a leather glove.
The upper leg flares outwards a bit as it goes up. It helps that it's an upright stance rather than the wide-legged stance most sisters models are in.
The top level of the shoulder armor only goes up to near the mouth-line, rather than the eye-line (this varies from model to model in the metals) - meaning the user's field of view is less restricted.
It's a small set of differences, but it LOOKS more like a suit of solid plates, where the current sisters look like they're wearing overlapping leather.
Note that St. Celestine has much better armor, though the body is a bit too corset-ey. There's one model of a sister superior that has solid forearm armor (the one with the bolter in one hand and an icon in the other). GW made a few moves in this direction.
If Sisters went plastic, hopefully we'd get some more dynamic poses - kneeling sisters, running sisters, walking sisters, standing at rest sisters. Right now it's all 'wide legged stance sisters' - probably because that cast better in metal.
I really like the one pulling the pin on the grenade with her teeth
She is an example of things that tend to get lost when we switch to plastic. Mono-pose metals can get a lot more custom interaction between parts. With multipart plastics you loose a lot of range of motion any dynamic posing. While they have been doing great things with HQs in the monopose plastics, I doubt Sister Badass will get that treatment. Which is a shame, as she is one of my favorite sculpts in the range.
jah-joshua wrote: @John Prins: don't Sisters already look just like that???
Nope. Look at the forearm - no long glove covering the forearm, there's a solid armor piece covering the entire forearm instead. The hand looks like an articulated armor gauntlet instead of a leather glove.
The upper leg flares outwards a bit as it goes up. It helps that it's an upright stance rather than the wide-legged stance most sisters models are in.
The top level of the shoulder armor only goes up to near the mouth-line, rather than the eye-line (this varies from model to model in the metals) - meaning the user's field of view is less restricted.
It's a small set of differences, but it LOOKS more like a suit of solid plates, where the current sisters look like they're wearing overlapping leather.
Actually, the metal models vary - some wear leather gauntlets over their armour, others have armour without the leather gauntlets. I should know - I've painted enough of them!
John Prins wrote: IIf Sisters went plastic, hopefully we'd get some more dynamic poses - kneeling sisters, running sisters, walking sisters, standing at rest sisters. Right now it's all 'wide legged stance sisters' - probably because that cast better in metal.
Ah, yeh, that'd be amazing! I hope they do have different poses.
jah-joshua wrote: @John Prins: don't Sisters already look just like that???
That image is from Codex: Witch Hunters, page 19, the image used as an example of Sororitas Power Armor, with explanations of the helmet and other parts as text to the sides of the image.
So yes, Sisters have looked like that for a decade or so.
jah-joshua wrote: @John Prins: i would be bummed to see them lose the corset...
it is one of the aspects that i really like about the look...
I'm sure they'll keep it, whatever my feelings are about it. Games Workshop doesn't have a casual disregard for human anatomy, they have complete contempt for it <cough>Terminators<cough>.
Melissia wrote: That image is from Codex: Witch Hunters, page 19...
So yes, Sisters have looked like that for a decade or so.
Sisters art has. The miniatures didn't IMO quite live up to it. They still look great, but they could look better. Every model evolves every time they decide to make new masters and molds for them (space marines have changed how many times?). Giving sisters a bit more 'armor' to their power armor isn't a big change - as that piece of art shows!
I was thinking more kneeling on one knee, braced, and firing/aiming. Or maybe spotting. Or using a piece of equipment, like a vox-caster or chirurgeon's kit.
But sure. Kneeling Eldar slavegirl style is also an option, I guess.
jah-joshua wrote: @John Prins: don't Sisters already look just like that???
Thats what I see, dunno where these sleek, sexy sister models are supposedly at.
This discussion has inspired me to pull the few I've got out of the bottom of the closet and get to painting them, and as far as I can tell the sleek, sexy Sister models are buried behind the limitations of the metal casting process and a mediocre studio paint scheme. I've been doing a Sacred Rose scheme, and armour with actual depth and cloth with a different colour lining goes a long, long way towards breaking up the chunkiness and bringing the model back out. That said plastic sculpts that didn't present the cloth and shoulders as solid chunks would help immensely.
(I'd also like a more subtle/more detailed chestplate, articulated gauntlets patterned after the current greaves, a more uniform rear collar, and a more detailed bolter with a less unwieldy scope, but you could do a lot with the current design with very subtle fixes).
After spending time with the models and the art I also think I've come across a clearer understanding of what's wrong with the current torso, too: it fundamentally can't decide whether it wants to be rigid plating or not. There's no chest/abdomen divide the way Space Marines, Guardsmen, Eldar, et cetera fit together, and the chestpeice comes down over the pelvis such that if it were rigid all through there's no way a Sister could bend at the waist. The central line is clearly intended to invoke the cutouts on the outside of the legs, but positioned as it is it can't help but look like a zipper. The backplate, on the other hand, is uniform between models in a way the chestplate isn't, and has cabling that invokes the abdomen section on Space Marine power armour.
So at the end of it you've either got to reach the conclusion that the Sisters are wearing armour that leaves them with a locked waist joint, or that they're just wearing ceramite shoulders, pants, and upper-back plate.
Taking a closer look at what other non-Astartes power armour looks like I think the best approach would be to go in and do the chest/abdomen division (as opposed to the chestplate-flares-out-from-the-hips thing they put on the Tempestus Scions). You could make the upper-torso plating more subtle and get the 'a woman is wearing this' point across visibly with the way the line across the bottom is cut, sort of like how the female Eternal Guard chestplates work in the Wood Elf range (though less extreme since there wouldn't be a large beltpiece under it); that'd have the extra benefit of drawing a clear visual distinction between Sororitas power armour and Space Marine power armour in a consistent way (Space Marines have geometrically simple components defined by the bling, Sisters have cleaner plates with more contoured components).
(I don't know if this explanation is understandable or gibberish. I'll try and mock up a concept, but it may take a bit.)
Yeah, the Grishnak Sisters have wedge-heel boots, as opposed to the GW flats, which makes more sense. On the other hand, at least wedge heels are slightly more sensible than full-on high heels. I think the head's OK, but the backpack's definitely too big - but not by much.
Gen.Steiner wrote: Yeah, the Grishnak Sisters have wedge-heel boots, as opposed to the GW flats, which makes more sense. On the other hand, at least wedge heels are slightly more sensible than full-on high heels. I think the head's OK, but the backpack's definitely too big - but not by much.
The head seems out of balance with the model somehow. 40k is giant and cartoonish, yes, but aesthetically we expect the 'head' or the 'face' to be close to life-size even as the rest of the model isn't, and the end result of a head that's slightly too big is the armour looking too thin/too light (essentially smaller head = bulkier armour). And the scale of that head somehow doesn't say 'power armour' to me.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The head seems appropriate for someone actually wearing a protective helmet.
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If anything, the helmet is undersized for an average woman's frame.
Yeah, but if you proportion said protective helmet the way the Stig's helmet is proportioned you end up making the power armour look like racing overalls instead of power armour. If the Stig were wearing power armour his head would be the same size and the rest of him would be bulked up quite a bit.
Actually, if the goal is to make them clearly female because decree passive etc etc, they should look like that. That way they can be sure that there isn't a man hiding in cleverly designed armor. People have vehemently denounced the concept of common sense in the armour design, so why not?
Bulk up her armor, and she's going to look more dwarf than human.
...Are you aware of the concept of a 'middle ground'? Or possibly 'not overdoing it'? How about 'subtle distinction'?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Observationally, the whole "be feminine" but "wear armor" starts to approach a certain silliness...
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If we're redesigning Sisters armor, this isn't a bad look at all.
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...If this were just dumb that'd be one thing, but I need to check right now whether I assumed too much aesthetic agreement in my earlier post. I made the assumption that it's a generally-held belief that bulky armoured shoulder pads stapled onto a thin fabric shirt looks unbalanced, cartoonish, and tacky, am I reaching here?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: Actually, if the goal is to make them clearly female because decree passive etc etc, they should look like that. That way they can be sure that there isn't a man hiding in cleverly designed armor. People have vehemently denounced the concept of common sense in the armour design, so why not?
Apparently because the concepts of 'subtlety' and 'taste' have escaped the discussion?
It is obviously really dumb, but from a real life standpoint, so is the status quo. People insisted that we looked at this from the viewpoint where people must identify the soldier's sex above all other factors, and this does that?
Now, this is both tangential and and one I doubt was sincere from the start; and it is not a likely outcome either (nor is it one I want).
Ashiraya wrote: It is obviously really dumb, but from a real life standpoint, so is the status quo. People insisted that we looked at this from the viewpoint where people must identify the soldier's sex above all other factors, and this does that?
Now, this is both tangential and and one I doubt was sincere from the start; and it is not a likely outcome either (nor is it one I want).
...No? The discussion got polarized and ran to extreme-edge strawmanning, the clause 'above all other factors' got inserted into the discussion without asking anyone (or at least without asking me).
I'm getting a little cranky at this because I thought I went and explained what's wrong with the status quo, why, and how I'd fix it in a thoughtful manner, and instead of reading or addressing any of the specific issues you're going to go back and attack a ridiculous viewpoint I don't think anyone's put forth this entire discussion.
1. The idea of GW resculpting anything and "not overdoing it" is beyond laughable. The idea of GW doing anything subtle is ridiculous beyond belief.
2. From a realism standpoint, giant shoulderpads are stupid. In the real world, you want well-fitted flexible shoulder armor that won't limit movement. Especially if a large portion of your fighting MO is to "drive closer so that I can hit them with my giant sword".
The funniest part is that people think GW is ever going to make plastic Sisters at all, when all indications are that GW will do anything *but* plastic Sisters. Heck, I think we'll see Slaanesh appear in AoS before we get plastic Sisters.
In that context, a LFL-style uniform is just as sensible as anything else.
Otherwise, they're going to look like modern soldiers in armor - just like men, but shorter.
We should be keeping in mind that 40k is considered to be 28mm "heroic" scale, i.e. not everything is correctly proportioned. As long as it's not so ridiculously obvious on first glance, such as classic Sisters' boobs practically coming out at right angles from their chest piece, then I'm okay with little bits of flair that add to the character of the models in return for not being quite 100% realistic in scale.
I think the Grishnak models are a step in the right direction for how Sisters should be looking in Plastic, although I'd agree that at least the bolter on that particular example is noticeably out of proportion with the rest of the model.
People aren't wrong to be making comparisons since that's our real life standard, and we do want to make Sisters look a lot more realistic than they do now. However, again, we should be keeping in mind that heroic scale is what it is to make the models more conveying of 40k's unique art style. Plus that Stig comparison was hilarious - Some say he owns 4000 points of SoB, and that beneath the helmet, he is a vision of the God Emperor himself...
the idea that realism should be the foundation of Space Opera sculpts is pretty much anathema to the whole reason that i collect GW minis...
if that is what i wanted, i would collect historicals...
the thing that attracted me to minis, 30 years ago, was finding the original Chaos Dwarf sculpts, back when they were crazy mutated Dwarfs...
seeing something so bizzare, and completely outside the bounds of reality was what made it cool, to me...
i like that GW overdoes it...
turn it up to 11, please...
that said, i don't think that anything needs to change with the Sisters aesthetic...
it seems like they are already turned up to 11 in the eyes of some people, which is totally understandable...
as a happy medium, the status quo does a great job, in my opinion...
AnomanderRake wrote: instead of reading or addressing any of the specific issues you're going to go back and attack a ridiculous viewpoint I don't think anyone's put forth this entire discussion.
AnomanderRake wrote: instead of reading or addressing any of the specific issues you're going to go back and attack a ridiculous viewpoint I don't think anyone's put forth this entire discussion.
See basically the entire discussion with Pouncey.
Exactly. Pouncey was absolutely adamant about how Sisters have to look feminine. Top priority. Non-negotiable.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The funniest part is that people think GW is ever going to make plastic Sisters at all, when all indications are that GW will do anything *but* plastic Sisters. Heck, I think we'll see Slaanesh appear in AoS before we get plastic Sisters.
Agree 100% Probably long after. I wont believe GW has released platic sisters even if I see a box on the shelf. I still field the sisters I bought the day they hit the store oh so long ago every week. I have bought many many more since then. I dont need plastic sisters, if someone gave them to me I wouldnt field them alongside my metal ones, they arent going to match. Thats one of those things I just cant stand.
I dont believe the mold issue story, I dont believe the notion that GW somehow made a million models in metal, wont melt them down, and would rather wait till they sold to run plastic sisters. A dex update is more likely to come out worse than what we currently have, no thanks.
All I need for my Sisters is some tactical cards with a Fleur on the back, three or four formations in a WD or for sale bundled up for $10 for a digital download. Heck, just roll the Apoc formations out as new and official and I would be hugely surprised.
Of course, I dont see that happening either.
(Edit) I want to add that I am NOT bitter or angry about how Sisters and Sisters players are treated by GW. I dont need or want my games of 40k to be easy mode. I dont think Sisters as an army deserve some kind of special treatment to make up for something. I thoroughly enjoy the army and always have, I enjoy a good deal of success with them on the table top. Besides, a Sisters player should have a bit of table top martyr in them anyhow.
...All right, then. If change is bad, moderation doesn't exist, I've been conflated with an exaggerated version of Pouncey, and none of it matters because GW's only going to do something stupid anyway I guess I'm not mocking up a prototype.
AnomanderRake wrote: ...All right, then. If change is bad, moderation doesn't exist, I've been conflated with an exaggerated version of Pouncey, and none of it matters because GW's only going to do something stupid anyway ...
All of that is true, except the bold part - you did that to yourself, not me. I never said you were Pouncey.
GW absolutely could do beautiful plastic Sisters models, assuming they use the existing design. GW does sculpts and poses and kits all very nicely. Where they sometimes lose the plot is when it comes to the new designs (e.g., Wulfen).
1) Anyone can claim the demand for SOB is substantial on the internet without any real numbers. Just like I can claim the number of people on the internet who wish to sleep with me is substantial. But just because one can say demand is substantial doesn't make it real. (especially that second one...wow is that claim false)
2) Sisters will likely get made in plastic EVENTUALLY, GW hasn't stopped selling them like brettonians and tomb kings and they haven't squatted em either so obviously there is some long term plan for em. Unfortunately said plan likely involves some other release of a more popular army paying for SOB models to be scuplted and molds made.
3) Back to claim 1, the internet has also insisted there is a vast market and always has been and huge market for GW's specialist games such as bloodbowl and the like, except the sales numbers NEVER reflected that. GW's best selling specialist game was Necromunda, it even had it's own actual little section in GW stores alongside fantasy and 40k for a while.....and then it died out. Point being the internet is an echo chamber, and while you and other like minded folks might sit there saying "OMG this is so popular and in demand why don't they sell more of it" uncounted numbers of other people just don't give a damn but you can't here them because they aren't in your little isolated group.
4) I badly want plastic sisters of battle to be a thing sooooo......Marine players spend more money so Geedub has the cash to make sisters.
Re. points 1 & 3, if we look at TGG and Dreadball, doesn't that basically define the market?
1. TGG2 pulled $800k including not-Sisters, etc. At best, not-Sisters were a $500k market including retail.
3. Dreadball pulled $730k DB1, $575k DBX, and $185k DB2 = $1.5M grand total. Maybe $2.5M if we also count retail.
GW is a $125M company. They didn't lose a minute of sleep over TGG's not-Sisters, although the $2.5M in Dreadball caught their attention, which is why Blood Bowl is coming back.
And note that Raging Heroes didn't launch not-Sisters as it's own KS. They don't have that much faith in Sisters, either...
AnomanderRake wrote: ...All right, then. If change is bad, moderation doesn't exist, I've been conflated with an exaggerated version of Pouncey, and none of it matters because GW's only going to do something stupid anyway I guess I'm not mocking up a prototype.
I'd be interested in seeing your idea, at least...
Orktavius wrote: 1) Anyone can claim the demand for SOB is substantial on the internet without any real numbers. Just like I can claim the number of people on the internet who wish to sleep with me is substantial. But just because one can say demand is substantial doesn't make it real. (especially that second one...wow is that claim false)
2) Sisters will likely get made in plastic EVENTUALLY, GW hasn't stopped selling them like brettonians and tomb kings and they haven't squatted em either so obviously there is some long term plan for em. Unfortunately said plan likely involves some other release of a more popular army paying for SOB models to be scuplted and molds made.
3) Back to claim 1, the internet has also insisted there is a vast market and always has been and huge market for GW's specialist games such as bloodbowl and the like, except the sales numbers NEVER reflected that. GW's best selling specialist game was Necromunda, it even had it's own actual little section in GW stores alongside fantasy and 40k for a while.....and then it died out. Point being the internet is an echo chamber, and while you and other like minded folks might sit there saying "OMG this is so popular and in demand why don't they sell more of it" uncounted numbers of other people just don't give a damn but you can't here them because they aren't in your little isolated group.
4) I badly want plastic sisters of battle to be a thing sooooo......Marine players spend more money so Geedub has the cash to make sisters.
If you'd actually read the posts in this thread you'd realize that I have said just that. "I cannot just claim my bubble is representative of the hobby community as a whole".
What I then identified from the responses is that GW does not use any reliable market research techniques to inform their decision making.
Why is it not reliable? because GW have said they do not do market research and therefore they must make their decisions on what to put resource into developing based on sales figures. Those sales figures are flawed however as we have seen I don't know how many posts saying "I'd buy Sisters if they weren't metal/monopose/expensive/etc."
Then I said what do you do?
Well really it wouldn't take a lot to conduct a large scale survey of a number of different communities to try and establish exactly what level of demand there really is.
I have said that I cannot say that the people I have spoken to face to face represent the community at large but either can you say that they don't.
The question is why can't we collect the data ourselves and then draw our conclusions about demand from the evidence?
Orktavius wrote: 1) Anyone can claim the demand for SOB is substantial on the internet without any real numbers. Just like I can claim the number of people on the internet who wish to sleep with me is substantial. But just because one can say demand is substantial doesn't make it real. (especially that second one...wow is that claim false)
Real numbers: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0
Also, having placed ads on the internet, I can attest that their are a substantial amount people on the internet who wish to sleep with me.
We have no way of knowing Adepta Sororitas sales figures. There is evidently enough for them to avoid being squatted, but not enough for GW to make new models a serious priority.
I also agree with your point of the internet being an echo chamber. Confirmation Bias is a real thing, and we tend to seek out like minded individuals.
That being said, 40K has a seriously competitive fan base. If Adepta Sororitas came out with a Tier 1 level competitive codex, their models would fly off the shelf.
Just imagine an Adepta Soritas codex with a Gladius equivalent formation, granting free transports. Sisters and Immolators would be EVERYWHERE !!
Orktavius wrote: 1) Anyone can claim the demand for SOB is substantial on the internet without any real numbers.
You can't say this and also say Sisters wouldn't be popular with a revamp. Because you don't have numbers to say that, either.
Neither does GW. GW doesn't do market research and doesn't make business decisions off of market research. GW doesn't have any idea what the market looks like.
Melissia wrote: GW doesn't do market research and doesn't make business decisions off of market research. GW doesn't have any idea what the market looks like.
Ashiraya wrote:And GW is the only ones who could even do that with any measure of reliability.
So we do not know.
Precisely. We can only assume whether a release of Sisters would be desirable/undesirable. I personally think all the attention that this thread alone has obtained, combined with the many years of this topic surfacing in many areas, would be grounds to say that a fair number of people do want Sisters to return as a viable army both collection and gaming wise.
Again though, only speculation. GW continues to baffle me by having next to no understanding of their markets; the only survey I've ever done for them while on their site... was about improving their site How about you ask me what I'd be interested in spending money on in the future, eh?
To be fair, most of this thread is just a couple of people - including me - arguing back and forth. Me, Johnhwang and Manchu together make up about a third of the entire thread. It is not a reliable measure for popularity, especially since the segment of the gaming population hardcore enough to go on gaming forums are not representative either.
If GW can bring back Genestealer Cults, after years and years of not even having a list, not even in a Chapter Approved, then I think that they can re-release Sisters of Battle with plastic figures.
Everything Genestealers got was basically to be the NPC faction in a boxed game where Space Marines (who are gauranteed sellers) fight them, along with some slapped-on 40k datasheets.
Still, you have a fair point - this thread hasn't had that many comers, and I'm pretty sure there are more 40k players off forums than ones who are signed on to at least one, so yes we are definitely far from the majority or representative sample.
Regardless, this topic isn't exactly new, both amongst forum goers and people who just go play at a club every so often or who are not part of an online community, hence why it is of my belief that there is a decent amount of people who'd at least be interested in collecting new Sisters
GSC won't really be a "full army" any more than Harlequins are. Or IKTs for that matter. Just more cool models that you can field alongside your primary force, be it Nids or IG.
If we are OK with such treatment for Quins and IKTs and GSC, would it be so bad for Sisters to be the same? Maybe in a CSM vs SoB game where the CSMs are the Elites and the Sisters are the fodder?
Genestealer Cult is going to get a hardback, 7th Edition, Codex. I'm not particularly concerned by the content; the fact is that they're getting a new physical Codex, a new vehicle, a new unit, a new character, and a new flyer, all plastic, plus the Overkill figures released seperately. Assuming the rumours are correct.
That is more than the Sisters have had at any point since 2003.
So I would love to see Sisters being one of the first Codexes released in 8th after the obligatory Spess Muhreens Codex.
I have hopes when I see Harlequins, Genestealer Cult and Deathwatch released as true armies.
The Custodes themselves are rumored to be released (by FW) !
How could GW forget the Sisters ? They are just one of those little armies.
godardc wrote: How could GW forget the Sisters ? They are just one of those little armies.
GW hasn't forgotten them. They just haven't decided whether / how to update them in a way that makes everybody happy, like the gentle femininity of a LFL-like uniform:
I think one challenge with identifying the market size for SoB is that anecdotally they are an army I've heard a number of gamer spouses say they were interested in playing before they realized the challenges of collecting a metal army... And that was before GW started disappearing models from their range. That is to say there is an atypical demographic interested that potentially extends the participating demographic outside the norm. Some went on to play Eldar, others Blood Angels, and others did nothing.
Ashiraya wrote: To be fair, most of this thread is just a couple of people - including me - arguing back and forth. Me, Johnhwang and Manchu together make up about a third of the entire thread. It is not a reliable measure for popularity, especially since the segment of the gaming population hardcore enough to go on gaming forums are not representative either.
Frankly, there really is no point in any one else participating in the thread once it degenerates that far. I'm convinced I know my own mind enough to know I would be happy to have plastic sisters, some other people are convinced they can cite sales figures (that no one seems to have...) to prove I wouldn't, and won't be convinced otherwise. There's nothing left to say, and any attempt to do so will give JohnHwang a flimsy excuse to post still more pinups. So why bother?
godardc wrote: How could GW forget the Sisters ? They are just one of those little armies.
GW hasn't forgotten them. They just haven't decided whether / how to update them in a way that makes everybody happy, like the gentle femininity of a LFL-like uniform:
Well, it's quite embarassing, as a human being living in the 21st century, that this is the uniform feminin athlets wear in the USA.
Do you remember Prodo's Space Crusade ? How can it be the real life ?
Captain Joystick wrote: Frankly, there really is no point in any one else participating in the thread once it degenerates that far
You realize it started out that way, right? This is Sisters of Battle we're talking about. There isn't anything new to discuss. There hasn't been anything new to discuss in a decade. There won't be anything new to discuss for the foreseeable future. And that's the name of hte game.
Well, it's quite embarassing, as a human being living in the 21st century, that this is the uniform feminin athlets wear in the USA. Do you remember Prodo's Space Crusade ? How can it be the real life ?
Melissia wrote: You realize it started out that way, right? This is Sisters of Battle we're talking about. There isn't anything new to discuss. There hasn't been anything new to discuss in a decade. There won't be anything new to discuss for the foreseeable future. And that's the name of hte game.
Noooot really? This thread was a completely different animal when it was only five pages long. For one, I could peek in on it when I was at work (can't risk that now, thanks Hwang)
Well, it's quite embarassing, as a human being living in the 21st century, that this is the uniform feminin athlets wear in the USA.
Do you remember Prodo's Space Crusade ? How can it be the real life ?
Why should anyone be embarrassed? They look great! What, would you have them compete in? Burquas? Burqinis?
Oh, wait, those are illegal in (racist) France...
Well, it's quite embarassing, as a human being living in the 21st century, that this is the uniform feminin athlets wear in the USA.
Do you remember Prodo's Space Crusade ? How can it be the real life ?
They don't get the same uniforms because the organization needs to get some attention somehow. There's really no reason for anyone to stop watching the CFL/NFL in favour of the FFL, so whoever's running the show tried to get more viewers by showing more skin.
Militarum Tempestus, Harlequins, and now Genestealer Cults are all sub-factions there was no demand for a complete codex for, but GW went ahead and produced them anyway, for reasons unfathomable to us down in the trenches. Those resources would have been far better expended on an army that already has a pre-existing player base.
godardc wrote: I think woment shouldn't compet almost naked just for us to see theirs boobs. Why shouldn't they just get the same uniform as thos guys ?
ShieldBrother wrote: They don't get the same uniforms because the organization needs to get some attention somehow. There's really no reason for anyone to stop watching the CFL/NFL in favour of the FFL, so whoever's running the show tried to get more viewers by showing more skin.
In the... very, very off chance that you guys are actually serious, I'll go ahead and point out that the LFL (which stood for Lingerie Football League until 2013) is a gimmick league who's gimmick is bilking college frat bros out of their parents' money by showing women playing football in their underwear.
There are plenty of professional womens' football leagues with actual uniforms, and they're also distinct from the LFL in that they're actually playing football, with full teams, field-goals and everything.
As it stands though, none of these pictures have been of flamethrower wielding nuns, futuristic soldiers in power armour, or 28mm models, so they're not really relevant to this discussion... Save it for when people start speculating as to whether or not Amazons will return in the new Blood Bowl.
Ashiraya wrote: Clearly it's those sleeves taking 20+ years to sculpt.
when that excuse was made it was a technically reasonable assertion. It's very clear GW has a backlog of models they've yet to release and I wouldn't be surprised if SoB were in that backlog. Part of the problem is the way GW has its release schedule, where they seemingly gurantee for 40k a number of space marine releases each year. Then they have AoS and now GW have added boxed games as a priority. The schedule is so packed with things GW see as necessary releases those low priority releases that they're content to bounce from a long forecast scheduled date are that much more likely to get bounced. If the rumor of the new edition are true, attatched to that are rumors that GW doesn't want to release any full sized codices until after that.
I;m not even really that interested in a new Codex. It's new models, or even just re-releases of the various now OOP versions and figures in the range, that I want to see.
Although a plastic Penitent Engine would be delicious.
Well, it's quite embarassing, as a human being living in the 21st century, that this is the uniform feminin athlets wear in the USA.
Do you remember Prodo's Space Crusade ? How can it be the real life ?
Way back in the 20th century, female athletic uniforms were far more progressive:
That's Women's Volleyball, 1996 Olympics.
This thread went odd very quickly.....
But this needs responding to.
Okay France is a secular nation that bans any sort of religious dress in public places, this includes rosary, and Jewish yarmulke, etc.. not just the burka.
I agree with it is a sane law.
Not only this but France is extremely tolerant to minorities going so far as relocating French citizens to give them housing. So don't call France racist when they are evicting their own people for these "refugees"
More importantly the topic at hand . Some years ago I think there was a test sculpt of SoB that either Harry or Hastings saw (I think ) but it never appeared. I think the image is just a stock one. Sisters are dead.
Ashiraya wrote: Clearly it's those sleeves taking 20+ years to sculpt.
when that excuse was made it was a technically reasonable assertion. It's very clear GW has a backlog of models they've yet to release and I wouldn't be surprised if SoB were in that backlog. Part of the problem is the way GW has its release schedule, where they seemingly gurantee for 40k a number of space marine releases each year. Then they have AoS and now GW have added boxed games as a priority. The schedule is so packed with things GW see as necessary releases those low priority releases that they're content to bounce from a long forecast scheduled date are that much more likely to get bounced. If the rumor of the new edition are true, attatched to that are rumors that GW doesn't want to release any full sized codices until after that.
That doesn't make a lot of sense, as the molds for one product line don't impact the molds for another. There's nothing stopping GW from having simultaneous AoS and 40k product launches. Having seen a small studio like RH crank out tens of thousands of models for a wide range of sculpts in a couple months, I know it's not a production resources issue... unless GW somehow has smaller production facilities than Raging Heroes, which also doesn't make any sense, given the relative size and scales of these companies. The Sisters entire catalog of models is so small as to be insignificant on a production schedule and, as GW doesn't do any market research, it's not like they know how many of each they'll need to produce to meet demand, so there's nothing stopping them from spinning up the molds and doing a ten thousand unit run of each sprue and then sending them off to the packaging plant.
Ashiraya wrote: Clearly it's those sleeves taking 20+ years to sculpt.
when that excuse was made it was a technically reasonable assertion. It's very clear GW has a backlog of models they've yet to release and I wouldn't be surprised if SoB were in that backlog. Part of the problem is the way GW has its release schedule, where they seemingly gurantee for 40k a number of space marine releases each year. Then they have AoS and now GW have added boxed games as a priority. The schedule is so packed with things GW see as necessary releases those low priority releases that they're content to bounce from a long forecast scheduled date are that much more likely to get bounced. If the rumor of the new edition are true, attatched to that are rumors that GW doesn't want to release any full sized codices until after that.
That doesn't make a lot of sense, as the molds for one product line don't impact the molds for another. There's nothing stopping GW from having simultaneous AoS and 40k product launches. Having seen a small studio like RH crank out tens of thousands of models for a wide range of sculpts in a couple months, I know it's not a production resources issue... unless GW somehow has smaller production facilities than Raging Heroes, which also doesn't make any sense, given the relative size and scales of these companies. The Sisters entire catalog of models is so small as to be insignificant on a production schedule and, as GW doesn't do any market research, it's not like they know how many of each they'll need to produce to meet demand, so there's nothing stopping them from spinning up the molds and doing a ten thousand unit run of each sprue and then sending them off to the packaging plant.
GW has made a choice, it doesn't want to release more than a certain number of models or new product each week. They also don't want AoS to compete with 40k; they want all you're attention on one product line at a time. GW has a skewed sense of its customer base. It doesn't see its customer base as wargamers or hobbyists it sees it customers as GW-hobbyists... So they believe simultaneous releases from multiple product lines is unnecessary self competing. They don't really acknowledge things released by other companies and don't really believe they're competing with them. So their releases are very meandering and have an unresponsive pace to them.
So what's happening is their design studio is obviously outpacing their release schedule. The copyright date stamp on a number of products in the last couple year are several years old. Assuming the oldest stuff we've seen released this years is when the backlog started they probably have over a year of product or production ready designs just waiting to be put into production. That's before you consider the reality of shifting priorities in the development process. One or two designers could be splitting their time between AoS and Sister of Battle models and keep getting dragged off the latter for the former.
This thread went odd very quickly.....
But this needs responding to.
It was blatant bait, if anything it needed to be ignored.
Psienesis wrote: There's nothing stopping GW from having simultaneous AoS and 40k product launches. Having seen a small studio like RH crank out tens of thousands of models for a wide range of sculpts in a couple months, I know it's not a production resources issue... unless GW somehow has smaller production facilities than Raging Heroes, which also doesn't make any sense, given the relative size and scales of these companies. The Sisters entire catalog of models is so small as to be insignificant on a production schedule and, as GW doesn't do any market research, it's not like they know how many of each they'll need to produce to meet demand, so there's nothing stopping them from spinning up the molds and doing a ten thousand unit run of each sprue and then sending them off to the packaging plant.
GW actually spends a lot of time to build up the stock for a new release. Check the date stamp on a ghostkeel sprue that model was complete and being printed for years before it was released to market.
Captain Joystick wrote: GW actually spends a lot of time to build up the stock for a new release. Check the date stamp on a ghostkeel sprue that model was complete and being printed for years before it was released to market.
It's been ten years. They don't need ten years to build up the stock necessary unless they're going to try to LITERALLY flood the market with sisters miniatures, and crush their enemies under the weight of a thousand tons of plastic.
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migooo wrote: Not only this but France is extremely tolerant to minorities
Captain Joystick wrote: GW actually spends a lot of time to build up the stock for a new release. Check the date stamp on a ghostkeel sprue that model was complete and being printed for years before it was released to market.
It's been ten years. They don't need ten years to build up the stock necessary unless they're going to try to LITERALLY flood the market with sisters miniatures, and crush their enemies under the weight of a thousand tons of plastic.
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migooo wrote: Not only this but France is extremely tolerant to minorities
Haha, no.
Yes the fact they still allow hundreds of thousands run rampant without any recourse is such a horrific thing to those poor "minorities"
Please stop acting like the US knows anything regarding the madness that Merkel created. But yes they evil because they want to keep their country secular.
Go to Calais and see the destruction go. But you wont. I have.
Anyway if you want we can discuss this via PM.
Back again to topic at hand
It's possible that some sisters exist but I doubt it. The only reason DE got a reboot was they were championed by someone. Sisters do not have that person.
I don't see the sanity behind the banning of religious/cultural clothing items when France are supposedly attempting to fulfil the idea of "living together" (whatever that means) by doing it.
Call me biased for saying it considering I've lived in 2 different Islamic States for most my life, but such clothing has never worried or insulted me despite it surrounding me in the droves. Cultural divide in both Dubai and Qatar is non existent, as it is a big mish mash of people from all over the world, much like many populations in France, and everyone is very tolerant of each other's choice of clothing, provided it's not very exposed. In the same light people get on very well too despite coming from many different backgrounds and countries - all without any need for dress code bans outside of overly exposing clothing, which is actually something that makes sense.
France's acceptance of refugees may be all well and good, but their treatment by the native French public based solely on their background is certainly a massive issue regarding racism.
Back again on topic
I wasn't aware that GW prints a lot of their stuff years before release. Regardless, 10 years of preparation doesn't seem at all business savvy regarding a product line that may or may not be successful.
migooo wrote:I think the sleeves thing was an excuse but it has become a bit of a joke.
Keep it mind the excuse was originally made 6 or 7 years ago, which was before GW had made the whole hearted shift to digital sculpting. In that period something like the robed arms of the Skitarii would be challenging. GW at that point was still doing a mixed approach to scultping where some components were still being physically sculpted and then digitized. A detail like the robed sleeves are the sort of detail that could easily be sculpted by hand and run into problems when it came to add the digitized model to an injection mold. This is where the slight differences in manufacturing methods is important. A hand sculpted piece being reproduced as a pewter or resin casting can have upto 5° undercut while something produced in an injection mold has to have a minimum 5° draft angle. Something like a robed sleeve when physically sculpted would tend to have undercuts which in plastic means either adjustments would have to be made in how the cloth folds upon its self as well as how the part is oriented in the mold cavity. Those adjustments are easy when a design is entirely done digitally but not as easily done when you consider where GW was those years ago. The 6-7 years was when the excuse was made; we really don't know when that effort was made it could have been years before that.
Institutional inertia becomes the next challenge because management will always remember a project that failed to perform and return on their investment and that makes it harder for those who want to come back to a project to do so.
General Annoyance wrote: I don't see the sanity behind the banning of religious/cultural clothing items when France are supposedly attempting to fulfil the idea of "living together" (whatever that means) by doing it.
Call me biased for saying it considering I've lived in 2 different Islamic States for most my life, but such clothing has never worried or insulted me despite it surrounding me in the droves. Cultural divide in both Dubai and Qatar is non existent, as it is a big mish mash of people from all over the world, much like many populations in France, and everyone is very tolerant of each other's choice of clothing, provided it's not very exposed. In the same light people get on very well too despite coming from many different backgrounds and countries - all without any need for dress code bans outside of overly exposing clothing, which is actually something that makes sense.
France's acceptance of refugees may be all well and good, but their treatment by the native French public based solely on their background is certainly a massive issue regarding racism.
Back again on topic
I wasn't aware that GW prints a lot of their stuff years before release. Regardless, 10 years of preparation doesn't seem at all business savvy regarding a product line that may or may not be successful.
G.A
Again its to keep public spaces Secular which is a good thing.
I'm glad you bought up those two states. Let's completely ignore the Religious police in those regions for a bit shall we?
When you go to a country you should adapt to the Cultural and Social norms of said county, France wanting to protect its culture and way of life is not racist, no matter how the hard left would wish us too believe. Also I find the fact that you claim everybody is accepted, yet I'm not allowed there simply because of a stamp in my passport makes that argument mute.
The argument is made that the Burka and Niqab are Cultural dress rather than religious. And possibly that's true. However I have no right to direct French law as they have no right to direct British, again I refuse to believe a country that evicts its own people for a supposed transient population is racist because they want to keep French culture french. The large Turkish population in France is a problem they don't integrate they stay with their own, and often their French is broken or non existent.
The fact that people in a country have to adapt to newcomers instead of those adapting because you know they could have stayed where that culture exists. I'm sorry its not racist to want to keep your way of life. That is all France is doing. Sorus sponsored media has a lot to answer for.
Again I'm happy to discuss this via PM.
And back to topic
Gw often has models that never see the light of day only to be dug up months or years later. Some test figures were released as collector series things.
migooo wrote:I think the sleeves thing was an excuse but it has become a bit of a joke.
Keep it mind the excuse was originally made 6 or 7 years ago, which was before GW had made the whole hearted shift to digital sculpting. In that period something like the robed arms of the Skitarii would be challenging. GW at that point was still doing a mixed approach to scultping where some components were still being physically sculpted and then digitized. A detail like the robed sleeves are the sort of detail that could easily be sculpted by hand and run into problems when it came to add the digitized model to an injection mold. This is where the slight differences in manufacturing methods is important. A hand sculpted piece being reproduced as a pewter or resin casting can have upto 5° undercut while something produced in an injection mold has to have a minimum 5° draft angle. Something like a robed sleeve when physically sculpted would tend to have undercuts which in plastic means either adjustments would have to be made in how the cloth folds upon its self as well as how the part is oriented in the mold cavity. Those adjustments are easy when a design is entirely done digitally but not as easily done when you consider where GW was those years ago. The 6-7 years was when the excuse was made; we really don't know when that effort was made it could have been years before that.
Institutional inertia becomes the next challenge because management will always remember a project that failed to perform and return on their investment and that makes it harder for those who want to come back to a project to do so.
I think the Skitarii are fantastic kits and the army is possibly the best GW has made. Those arms n things just show you how far they've come
I suppose the relevant point is that given the funky robes of the Skitarii, there's no longer any excuse at all for the Sisters not to be produced in plastic.
For me, the High Elf plastics from WFB 8E were proof enough that GW has the technical ability to produce Sisters in plastic. And that ignores the Dark Angels dresses, which are even older.
It's obvious that GW chooses not to produce plastic Sisters, not that they lack the technical ability to do so.
And that reason is almost certainly a dollars and cents (or pounds and pence) problem of GW not being able to make a sound business case to do so.
I think it's GW's own inertia at this point. Whatever problems they had in the past their technology can now solve and it's just a case of either finding the time or convincing management that it's worth while. There isn't much any of us can do in either case. While we know they are different things, I think if FW's Sisters of Silence sell well whenever they're released I think it's proof against GWs greatest apprehension as far as SoB potentially not doing well just because they're a female army in a male dominated customer base.
migooo wrote: Yes the fact they still allow hundreds of thousands run rampant
You sound like Trump. But this is off topic, and frankly after that post I'm really not interested in talking with you about it.
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aka_mythos wrote: I think it's GW's own inertia at this point. Whatever problems they had in the past their technology can now solve and it's just a case of either finding the time or convincing management that it's worth while. There isn't much any of us can do in either case. While we know they are different things, I think if FW's Sisters of Silence sell well whenever they're released I think it's proof against GWs greatest apprehension as far as SoB potentially not doing well just because they're a female army in a male dominated customer base.
Maybe. I just hope that they don't link the two in the lore.
migooo wrote: Yes the fact they still allow hundreds of thousands run rampant
You sound like Trump. But this is off topic, and frankly after that post I'm really not interested in talking with you about it.
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aka_mythos wrote: I think it's GW's own inertia at this point. Whatever problems they had in the past their technology can now solve and it's just a case of either finding the time or convincing management that it's worth while. There isn't much any of us can do in either case. While we know they are different things, I think if FW's Sisters of Silence sell well whenever they're released I think it's proof against GWs greatest apprehension as far as SoB potentially not doing well just because they're a female army in a male dominated customer base.
Maybe. I just hope that they don't link the two in the lore.
I'm in Europe where there are thousands of people swarming our borders..... It's a fact!, I don't care if they come to work but they don't Britain is not filled with gold. I'm sorry I don't want my country flooded with people who don't want to work and drain are already poor resources thanks to a stupid brexit that's cost us Billions already.
Lastly on this I'm quite happy to discuss it with you. But as I'm aware certain people are uncomfortable with facts ( such as certain presidential candidates and their oponenents whose names are used as insults ) ill leave the invitation open via PM.
Sisters of Battle were extremely popular when they had their first release in the 90s so much a small squad turned into an army. They sold out.
I'm not sure if many remember this fact. many people do not like metal figures this is why they stalled during the Witchunter Codex
A full squad of sisters with boltguns and the extras costs you nearly 100 pounds where as any other costs you a maximum of 30 it's simple economics for the reasons they don't sell.
I implore gw to just release one squad box and see how they do. I'm sure they would sell fine I'd probably get 6.
migooo wrote: Yes the fact they still allow hundreds of thousands run rampant
You sound like Trump. But this is off topic, and frankly after that post I'm really not interested in talking with you about it.
.
OT, but I have a couple of friends who lives in Germany, and they can confirm that no-one likes Murkels plans and no-one wants the immigrants.
Back on topic, I really hoe that this new CO starts looking at what the fans want. There is hope yet, as GW does seem to be finally turning around and realising it was heading for oblivion. Fans want Sisters? So hopefully we will get them.
master of ordinance wrote: OT, but I have a couple of friends who lives in Germany, and they can confirm that no-one likes Murkels plans and no-one wants the immigrants.
Just so that our American friends do not get the wrong impression, thankfully people like the two above me are only a portion of the European population; if Merkel had been as impopular as they claim she'd have been voted out of office. I live in Sweden - often horribly termed the 'rape capital of Europe' and a popular subject of related derisive memes - but it really is not as bad here as people wish it were.
Back on topic, I really hoe that this new CO starts looking at what the fans want. There is hope yet, as GW does seem to be finally turning around and realising it was heading for oblivion. Fans want Sisters? So hopefully we will get them.
Well, fans want just about everything. We don't really know how many want SoB, right? Especially since those who do want them are often disproportionately vocal.
I am not claiming the interest to be one way or the other, just that it is difficult to measure the interest from a couple forum threads.
Cheesecat wrote: Can we stop with the racism and get back to talking about sisters.
Yes please.
With Deathwatch being out it is definitely a prime time to bring Sisters and maybe even the Inq line of models into proper plastic. Honestly outside of Orks and Tau, Sisters of Battle is my favorite army concept and would of been my 3rd army if they had plastic kits for them. Hopefully we will see plastic sisters in the near future and if so they will definitely be added to my roster of subfactions in my "Fiery Heart of the Emperor" Inq force.
Back on topic, I really hoe that this new CO starts looking at what the fans want. There is hope yet, as GW does seem to be finally turning around and realising it was heading for oblivion. Fans want Sisters? So hopefully we will get them.
Well, fans want just about everything. We don't really know how many want SoB, right? Especially since those who do want them are often disproportionately vocal.
I am not claiming the interest to be one way or the other, just that it is difficult to measure the interest from a couple forum threads.
well, as I say we can hope. The sisters have not been updated for a long time - their newest Codex is an early 6th PDF only print and their model lines date back from the 1998 era. If any army is due an update it is them (hell, even Chaos have newer kits [yes, i know there are ancient chaos kits too]).
master of ordinance wrote: OT, but I have a couple of friends who lives in Germany, and they can confirm that no-one likes Murkels plans and no-one wants the immigrants.
Just so that our American friends do not get the wrong impression, thankfully people like the two above me are only a portion of the European population; if Merkel had been as impopular as they claim she'd have been voted out of office. I live in Sweden - often horribly termed the 'rape capital of Europe' and a popular subject of related derisive memes - but it really is not as bad here as people wish it were.
Back on topic, I really hoe that this new CO starts looking at what the fans want. There is hope yet, as GW does seem to be finally turning around and realising it was heading for oblivion. Fans want Sisters? So hopefully we will get them.
Well, fans want just about everything. We don't really know how many want SoB, right? Especially since those who do want them are often disproportionately vocal.
I am not claiming the interest to be one way or the other, just that it is difficult to measure the interest from a couple forum threads.
Sigh.... okay Germany hasn't had a general election yet, it's this year. Save the smug comments until then shall we?
Secondly its not racist to want to not have your country overrun. Sweden is not fine have you been to Malmo? Why is it my Jewish relatives there fled? Regardless of the spin people want to put in things there are significant problems in Europe regarding migrants which in part Obama created as did my government.
Again I offer anybody to discuss this via PM please prove I'm racist simply not wanting to open my doors to millions of people who just want to drain our welfare system when disabled British people are demonized by the very one they want to take advantage of.
And lastly I want to add is is not true that crimes have escalated in countries where these unchecked "migrants" have come through?? Why is it the people want to destroy everything built simply because they are guilty because of something their ancestors may or may not have done.
If we're such a minority why was the afd first in the elections in Germany recently??
Again proof but no let's call me a racist or a trump supporter when I'm neither. You don't know me and if you have a problem with my posts there's an ignore button for a reason . I thought those scared of facts use block bots.
If you want to read my reply to people's insinuation about my person its above if not I suggest you leave it.
I still think this ceo is basically Kirby puppet simply as he is still majority shareholder. A few good things he's done still doesn't make up for the mistake of AoS or rebooting every other codex a year or 2 down the line.
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Cheesecat wrote: Can we stop with the racism and get back to talking about sisters.
I am so confused. This isn't the thread to discuss immigration policies and impacts, so...
...If Sisters of Silence sell well - and I'll definitely be getting some - then I hope it provides the impetus to get Sisters of Battle properly produced at last.
On a slight tangent, I always thought it was a massive shame that they never released their Codex: Alien Hunters project, though I suspect some of it saw the light of day in the release of the Jokaero model.
Gen.Steiner wrote: I am so confused. This isn't the thread to discuss immigration policies and impacts, so...
...If Sisters of Silence sell well - and I'll definitely be getting some - then I hope it provides the impetus to get Sisters of Battle properly produced at last.
On a slight tangent, I always thought it was a massive shame that they never released their Codex: Alien Hunters project, though I suspect some of it saw the light of day in the release of the Jokaero model.
It honestly depends on how they look. I think. It's part of a big box and if they get a separate release like the rest of the HH stuff it could sell well I think.
Well we know what Sisters of Silence look like. Bald but for topknots, half-face helms, golden armour, fur cloaks, leather boots over their leg carapace, boltguns, flamers and the like in evidence - the uniform is quite different to the Sisters of Battle - but they're a really cool faction and given that the precedent for the HH box set is to eventually be released as seperate units, I can see them selling reasonably well.
Gen.Steiner wrote: Well we know what Sisters of Silence look like. Bald but for topknots, half-face helms, golden armour, fur cloaks, leather boots over their leg carapace, boltguns, flamers and the like in evidence - the uniform is quite different to the Sisters of Battle - but they're a really cool faction and given that the precedent for the HH box set is to eventually be released as seperate units, I can see them selling reasonably well.
If they keep that goofy ork like hair on the models .....I dunno I hope they are convertible to SoB easy enough.
Don't they wear something like power armour though?
I've heard the SoS may be just a single character though not a full squad.
No, well, it doesn't look like it. I mean it probably is, but it seems to be carapace armour.
I doubt they are easy to convert to Sisters of Battle though, as the armour is very different and lacks, for example, the Ecclesiarchy symbols and so on. Not impossible, just hard.
Gen.Steiner wrote: No, well, it doesn't look like it. I mean it probably is, but it seems to be carapace armour.
I doubt they are easy to convert to Sisters of Battle though, as the armour is very different and lacks, for example, the Ecclesiarchy symbols and so on. Not impossible, just hard.
Gen.Steiner wrote: No, well, it doesn't look like it. I mean it probably is, but it seems to be carapace armour.
I doubt they are easy to convert to Sisters of Battle though, as the armour is very different and lacks, for example, the Ecclesiarchy symbols and so on. Not impossible, just hard.
Very different indeed.
I mean ffs, just because they're female humans doesn't mean that Sisters of Silence have to be treated as Sisters of Battle expies. Nor should they be treated as a replacement. They aren't. They have very different lore, looks, and appeals. I mean I know people are used to marines, which are often so similar that a coat of paint will change what codex you use, but not every faction is marines...
Also, one is 30k (which sucks ass) and the other is 40k (which is awesome) so that is that
Anyone else on here ever wonder why people, particular gamers, think chicks in military/authority roles are so neat?
I attribute the phenomenon toward either the simple novelty of it... or sexual repression, gender identity confusion, and/or matriarchal focused upbringing. Hear me out, just ask WHY guys/girls like the idea of say sisters of battle, and you may just find: political'ness, unrealized sexism, or overly egalitarian assertions (I'd wager).
The simplicity of nuns with guns is a funny image, but man, most of the models do not look like nuns. If anything, I see guys saying one thing in regards to wanting some new fun image, but then I look at their actual ideas, and it seems like its coming from some sort of artistic, primal self-denial?
I like cartoonish things. Exaggerations to me can be fun BUT sisters of battle being back on the table, or even streamlining female plastic soldiers, just make my eyes roll - when I imagine the diehard mentality of those who push them.
Why can't fluff be just left in the boys club and left at that? Go to another genre or play eldar if you really want boob plates, pony tails & stilletos. Or play Slaanesh. Or, just call your space marines/ guardsman girls and leave it at that (depending on how serious you are, that declaration may be quite enigmatic to others - as it should)
The funny thing is, about what I'm saying, in a thread dominated by SoB fans, is that I doubt I'm the fringe abroad. If at least, I suspect most people don't really care - until they for some fleeting reason, lose interest entirely (being jaded by x and y unknowingly). This movement away from the hobby is more due to an overall ideological creep; deviating from the fundamentals that made Warhammer novel to begin with...cartoonish bastardizations. Really, if you want ultra sexualized band of bikini girls, then hey an army of those are at least consistent with the obvious humor. SoB, like SM, may have absurd aesthetics, and overly serious fluff, but one does not sexualize itself for the sake of being different. That feels artificial and frankly... awkward. The facts that some guys must see boobs & curves - for whatever perverse or 'noble' reason - should make the average Joe pause.... because that mentality is weird. Sure, the occasional model or band of chicks is whatever, but the mentality to choose an army of boobies, or the need to 'add variety' by boobs and curves, is odd - the behavior, the reasoning involved.
The popular demand for a new cookie is inexorable; its legacy perpetually consuming itself. Thus, popularity alone cannot always be a trusted indicator toward real greatness.
I played the City of Heroes MMO for years, where I met this woman gamer who played nothing but male characters. I asked her about it one day and she simply told me "If I'm going to stare at this character's butt all day, it might as well be a nice butt that I wouldn't mind staring at all day"
Personally, I find the draw of Apepta Sororitas is that they are one of the less common armies, and don't feel as cookie cutter when playing them.
kveldulf wrote: I attribute the phenomenon toward either the simple novelty of it...
I like the variety, and I think the SoB models were well-sculpted. Aside from the haircuts, the models hold up very well today.
I don't think my enjoyment needs to express some sort of matriarchal / feminist / anti-sexist / political viewpoint or commentary on my part vis-a-vis the "boy's club" of gaming.
kveldulf wrote: I attribute the phenomenon toward either the simple novelty of it...
I like the variety, and I think the SoB models were well-sculpted. Aside from the haircuts, the models hold up very well today.
I don't think my enjoyment needs to express some sort of matriarchal / feminist / anti-sexist / political viewpoint or commentary on my part vis-a-vis the "boy's club" of gaming.
I agree. I like to keep it simple but at the same time, people can be traditional or just weird on why they supposedly like things, and that, can create a 'cascade of dumb' within the community.. When asked the 'why' people reach for answers - which is ok to an extent, but when things are an apparent enigma, carried further by their reasoning, then I pause.
If sisters did come out, I think a better rendition would be to take actual nun garb and run with that. Furthermore, making them bulkier and uglier would be amusing - kind of like a helga complex.
I personally think the SoB were crap (though the quality may have been finely done). Just don't care for the artistic direction.
kveldulf wrote: Anyone else on here ever wonder why people, particular gamers, think chicks in military/authority roles are so neat?
I attribute the phenomenon toward either the simple novelty of it... or sexual repression, gender identity confusion, and/or matriarchal focused upbringing. Hear me out, just ask WHY guys/girls like the idea of say sisters of battle, and you may just find: political'ness, unrealized sexism, or overly egalitarian assertions (I'd wager).
The simplicity of nuns with guns is a funny image, but man, most of the models do not look like nuns. If anything, I see guys saying one thing in regards to wanting some new fun image, but then I look at their actual ideas, and it seems like its coming from some sort of artistic, primal self-denial?
I like cartoonish things. Exaggerations to me can be fun BUT sisters of battle being back on the table, or even streamlining female plastic soldiers, just make my eyes roll - when I imagine the diehard mentality of those who push them.
Why can't fluff be just left in the boys club and left at that? Go to another genre or play eldar if you really want boob plates, pony tails & stilletos. Or play Slaanesh. Or, just call your space marines/ guardsman girls and leave it at that (depending on how serious you are, that declaration may be quite enigmatic to others - as it should)
The funny thing is, about what I'm saying, in a thread dominated by SoB fans, is that I doubt I'm the fringe abroad. If at least, I suspect most people don't really care - until they for some fleeting reason, lose interest entirely (being jaded by x and y unknowingly). This movement away from the hobby is more due to an overall ideological creep; deviating from the fundamentals that made Warhammer novel to begin with...cartoonish bastardizations. Really, if you want ultra sexualized band of bikini girls, then hey an army of those are at least consistent with the obvious humor. SoB, like SM, may have absurd aesthetics, and overly serious fluff, but one does not sexualize itself for the sake of being different. That feels artificial and frankly... awkward. The facts that some guys must see boobs & curves - for whatever perverse or 'noble' reason - should make the average Joe pause.... because that mentality is weird. Sure, the occasional model or band of chicks is whatever, but the mentality to choose an army of boobies, or the need to 'add variety' by boobs and curves, is odd - the behavior, the reasoning involved.
The popular demand for a new cookie is inexorable; its legacy perpetually consuming itself. Thus, popularity alone cannot always be a trusted indicator toward real greatness.
I'm curious, you think that because Sisters were my first real army that I have some kind of prepubescent complex about women? Or that secretly I wish to be one?
Regardless if I do or do not and find the fact an army can't be cool regardless if it is male or female puzzling.
The reason for my choice was actually the old metal Immolator, the thought of a super flame tank only used by a group of battle hardened heretic burning Nuns was kinda interesting. I hadn't seen anything like this before. It was like Female Redemptionists in a way.
Telling sisters plays to go play Slaanesh or Dark Eldar to get their quota of "Boobs" (that word.... ugh!) is rather dismissive. Go play Tempestus to get your quota of burly men instead of Catchans is just as dismissive.
Or how about removing Chaos Space Marines. Telling those players to just buy regular marines and add spikes as its just the same.
If you do not like them fine but insinuating that every male Sisters player is a boy who has problems is very odd. Can't something just be fun? Things have become far too serious in the hobby scene. Where everything has to be dissected for its Political and Social issues, we get enough misery on the news. I paint for fun and relaxation, not to be yelled at I'm a monster for liking x or y.
This thread gets stranger and stranger the longer it goes on.
My sexuality and sexual preferences have nothing to do with my desire to play Sisters of Battle, or why I have an army of them, or why I want to see them updated and re-released in plastic.
Gen.Steiner wrote: This thread gets stranger and stranger the longer it goes on.
It really does, doesn't it? This is the internet I guess
I just like badass females in the media I consume, which the Sisters are. Simple as that really. I don't read into it anymore than that, since I don't play the game and enjoy the hobby for annoying politics to seep into it.
The very simple idea of “overly egalitarian” makes no sense here.
kveldulf wrote: but then I look at their actual ideas, and it seems like its coming from some sort of artistic, primal self-denial?
What on earth is being denied to anyone here?
kveldulf wrote: Why can't fluff be just left in the boys club and left at that?
Implying there should be a reason to “not leave the fluff in the boys club”. Rather, the question should be if there is a reason to “leave the fluff in the boys club”.
kveldulf wrote: Go to another genre or play eldar if you really want boob plates, pony tails & stilletos.
It is an extremely weird assumption that Sisters players want “boob plates, pony tails & stilletos” when Sisters have neither pony tails, nor stilettos. It is then a very weird advice to tell them to play Eldars to get those while eldars also have neither pony tails nor stilettos.
kveldulf wrote: The funny thing is, about what I'm saying, in a thread dominated by SoB fans, is that I doubt I'm the fringe abroad.
Given the weirdness of the ideas expressed above, I can't imagine them NOT being fringe.
kveldulf wrote: Really, if you want ultra sexualized band of bikini girls, then hey an army of those are at least consistent with the obvious humor.
I fail to see how that's humor, given how many times it's been played 100% straight, and how it's not really, well, funny, in the first place.
Captain Joystick wrote: GW actually spends a lot of time to build up the stock for a new release. Check the date stamp on a ghostkeel sprue that model was complete and being printed for years before it was released to market.
That's not building stock. That's long leadtimes and release schedules that aren't "push out stuff as fast as they come out". They don't want to release stuff too much stuff at once and don't release odd unrelated releases that much either. So no odd sister of battle unit here and there...
Eldar jetbikes were ready for like decade waiting for the word go. Ghostkeel wasn't waiting for stocks to be built but for tau release window coming along. They sure as hell weren't building up stock just to sit around. That would be unneccessary costs. They want to have stocks as low as they absolutely need. Boxes waiting years just for sake of it isn't that...
I'm in Europe where there are thousands of people swarming our borders..... It's a fact!, I don't care if they come to work but they don't Britain is not filled with gold. I'm sorry I don't want my country flooded with people who don't want to work and drain are already poor resources thanks to a stupid brexit that's cost us Billions already.
Yeah. Funny thing that they are pouring seeing there's war in large part due to actions of USA and Brits who went there out of their own interests blowing stuff up and toppling goverments out of their greed.
And nice generalization about people who don't want to work. Guess you don't actually KNOW any of those refugees personally? I do. They want to work as soon as they can find one.
And hopefully you don't try to seriously claim Trump saying any facts Big blow to your creditibility if you do.
Funny how some people are big one on idea of "freedom" but only when said freedom is "be just like me". Call me stupid but that ain't freedom. That's being told by somebody how to be. Tyranny in other words.
