It does, it's a funny thing Kronk said, not actual laugh out loud funny, but perfectly functional. The failure here is not in the telling, but I'm not here to tell people what to laugh at.
Perhaps a little common sense might help though, or did you really think Kronk read that sentence and then just stopped reading?
Azreal13 wrote: It does, it's a funny thing Kronk said, not actual laugh out loud funny, but perfectly functional. The failure here is not in the telling, but I'm not here to tell people what to laugh at.
Perhaps a little common sense might help though, or did you really think Kronk read that sentence and then just stopped reading?
It doesn't work because the joke is about asking someone to describe an interesting situation further, and the situation already was described further.
Also, people ceasing to read a post after one sentence is not all that uncommon in my experience. I've even had a person I was talking to about 20 minutes ago on another forum not read parts of a post that came before the part they replied to.
He was asking about boobs. When he said "tell me more" he was interested to hear about the boobs, because boobs are cool. D cups being that much cooler than many other cup sizes for a lot of people. Even those that aren't that bothered might make that sort of comment because..
Spoiler:
Are you doing this on purpose? It would really help to know if you were.
He was asking about boobs. When he said "tell me more" he was interested to hear about the boobs, because boobs are cool. D cups being that much cooler than many other cup sizes for a lot of people. Even those that aren't that bothered might make that sort of comment because..
Spoiler:
Are you doing this on purpose? It would really help to know if you were.
To return to the concept of plastic Sisters of Battle:
A 10 figure box with two of each special weapon would make Celestians, Dominions and basic Sisters.
A 5 figure box with four of each heavy weapon (or two of each, more likely) would make Retributors.
A clampack Canoness.
A 5 figure Command Squad set that gives you extra parts for Imagifers, Banner Bearers, Hospitallers and Dialogus.
A 5 figure Seraphim set, with options for inferno pistols and hand flamers.
A 10 figure Repentia set, perhaps in Finecast?
A retooling of the Immolator, boxed with parts to make Rhinos and Repressors. Call it the "Sisters of Battle Transport"
A plastic Exorcist.
That's, what, two vehicle boxes, five figure boxes and a clampack.
Compare/contrast to the Deathwatch: two boxed games, three clampack characters, a Kill-Team box, a Vanguard box, a flyer, a Land Raider, a Rhino/Razorback, and a Dreadnought. This doesn't include the more expensive £40-50 sets like the Venator Kill-Team.
Gen.Steiner wrote: To return to the concept of plastic Sisters of Battle:
A 10 figure box with two of each special weapon would make Celestians, Dominions and basic Sisters.
A 5 figure box with four of each heavy weapon (or two of each, more likely) would make Retributors.
A clampack Canoness.
A 5 figure Command Squad set that gives you extra parts for Imagifers, Banner Bearers, Hospitallers and Dialogus.
A 5 figure Seraphim set, with options for inferno pistols and hand flamers.
A 10 figure Repentia set, perhaps in Finecast?
A retooling of the Immolator, boxed with parts to make Rhinos and Repressors. Call it the "Sisters of Battle Transport"
A plastic Exorcist.
That's, what, two vehicle boxes, five figure boxes and a clampack.
Compare/contrast to the Deathwatch: two boxed games, three clampack characters, a Kill-Team box, a Vanguard box, a flyer, a Land Raider, a Rhino/Razorback, and a Dreadnought. This doesn't include the more expensive £40-50 sets like the Venator Kill-Team.
Ideally I would prefer Celestians to get their own kit with more ornate armor and weapons instead of having to rely on a different paint job to distinguish them, but I'll happily admit that it's not necessary for the first wave of plastic Sisters since the combined kit could contain some bits to be added specifically to Celestians, and even if we don't do that and stick with the paint job being the only difference it'll work just fine and save a Celestians kit to package along with a new Codex some years down the line when a Codex update becomes necessary.
Also a slight change I'd suggest is changing the Canoness to Canoness/Palatine, since I'd like to see the option of a Palatine HQ return to the Codex. The model can be the same though.
Azreal13 wrote: It does, it's a funny thing Kronk said, not actual laugh out loud funny, but perfectly functional. The failure here is not in the telling, but I'm not here to tell people what to laugh at.
Perhaps a little common sense might help though, or did you really think Kronk read that sentence and then just stopped reading?
Pouncey was trying to stretch the joke out, which evidently failed.
As for Kronk's question, It was actually because at the time I did think they just got pancaked when the chest is binded and my friend wanted to show me just how they properly deformed. Apparently my art at the time was bad enough that she felt the need to do this. And no, it did not go anywhere after that in case you're wondering
Pouncey wrote: Ideally I would prefer Celestians to get their own kit with more ornate armor and weapons instead of having to rely on a different paint job to distinguish them, but I'll happily admit that it's not necessary for the first wave of plastic Sisters since the combined kit could contain some bits to be added specifically to Celestians, and even if we don't do that and stick with the paint job being the only difference it'll work just fine and save a Celestians kit to package along with a new Codex some years down the line when a Codex update becomes necessary.
Also a slight change I'd suggest is changing the Canoness to Canoness/Palatine, since I'd like to see the option of a Palatine HQ return to the Codex. The model can be the same though.
To be fair, they could do that for the Celestians by rolling the Celestian kit into the Command Squad. And I agree on the Palatine too!
Azreal13 wrote: It does, it's a funny thing Kronk said, not actual laugh out loud funny, but perfectly functional. The failure here is not in the telling, but I'm not here to tell people what to laugh at.
Perhaps a little common sense might help though, or did you really think Kronk read that sentence and then just stopped reading?
Pouncey was trying to stretch the joke out, which evidently failed.
As for Kronk's question, It was actually because at the time I did think they just got pancaked when the chest is binded and my friend wanted to show me just how they properly deformed. Apparently my art at the time was bad enough that she felt the need to do this. And no, it did not go anywhere after that in case you're wondering
What does "stretch the joke out" mean? I've never heard that metaphor, and if you mean "to keep the joke going" like I think it means, you could not be more wrong as to what I meant.
Also, lay off Pouncey. (S)he is a nice person and doesn't deserve any of your crap.
Thanks.
I've been accused of trolling on a lot of occasions, but often it seems to be when I have a unique perspective on something and my arguments are not actually being countered by what people are saying. It often turns out that I'm wrong, but it's not because I'm trying to stir up trouble, instead just that I think I'm right and no one's managed to point out how I'm actually wrong in a way I can understand as valid. When someone does manage to make it clear to me why my reasoning is wrong, I don't keep arguing.
Seriously, if I'm wrong about something, just find a way to explain why my reasoning is invalid and thus I am in fact wrong. All it takes to get me to stop arguing a point is to make me realize that that point is wrong.
However, regarding me being nice... I have actually said things to my partner at times which made him temporarily consider suicide. I'm not always nice. Usually I am, but I can be extremely cruel at times.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I generally use my own way of expressing things in the most literal-minded way possible. I was thinking of the trope "Overly long gag".
Given what I read on TV Tropes about that... no, that is not what I was doing in any way.
First off, those of you that can't take this seriously, and insist on derailing to be mean to each other or make snarky comments, need to stop before this thread gets closed. I actually want to hear what has to be said. Thanks.
Gen.Steiner wrote: To return to the concept of plastic Sisters of Battle:
A 10 figure box with two of each special weapon would make Celestians, Dominions and basic Sisters.
A 5 figure box with four of each heavy weapon (or two of each, more likely) would make Retributors.
A clampack Canoness.
A 5 figure Command Squad set that gives you extra parts for Imagifers, Banner Bearers, Hospitallers and Dialogus.
A 5 figure Seraphim set, with options for inferno pistols and hand flamers.
A 10 figure Repentia set, perhaps in Finecast?
A retooling of the Immolator, boxed with parts to make Rhinos and Repressors. Call it the "Sisters of Battle Transport"
A plastic Exorcist.
That's, what, two vehicle boxes, five figure boxes and a clampack.
Compare/contrast to the Deathwatch: two boxed games, three clampack characters, a Kill-Team box, a Vanguard box, a flyer, a Land Raider, a Rhino/Razorback, and a Dreadnought. This doesn't include the more expensive £40-50 sets like the Venator Kill-Team.
I like where you are going with this, but I think we should think about this in terms of sprues. Packaging is cheap, the real sunk cost is in the tooling. The Death Watch is only a three sprue release, not counting the boxed games (Artemis kill team). It consists of two sprues for a kill team and an upgrade frame. These are then packaged with pre-existing product. This makes sense from a financial standpoint because that doesn't seem like a lot of investment. To do the Sisters of Battle would be much more cost heavy.
In reality they could do it in 10 sprues
Celestians and Command squad would share a box (two sprues).
Dominions, Sisters, and Retributors would share a set of sprues (however they package them). They could do a single sprue with 5 sisters and a single sprue with 2 each of the heavy weapons. Then, for Sisters boxes, put in two of the sisters sprues and one heavy weapon sprue. For the retributors, 2 heavy weapon, 1 sister (two more sprues, four total).
They would then need to do something with Seraphim. They would almost certainly release a new unit in conjunction with retooling Seraphim in plastic. Possibly something close combat oriented with power swords or what not. This would probably need 3 sprues because those jet packs are bulky (three more, seven total).
Then we have the repentia. They would probably leave these finecast (are they finecast and not metal? I haven't bought any in ages), so we won't count them.
Penitent Engines would get a double unit release in plastic. I'm not sure how many sprues this would cost. Maybe two of the big ones? (two more, nine total).
The vehicles shouldn't be a problem unless they want to add more variety. It would take a single sprue that was well designed to combine the exorcist and immolator. The only problem would be if they wanted to add Repressors, which I don't think they should as that's more of an Arbites thing. (one new sprue, ten total).
Then we get into adding new units and such. This would become even more intensive. In the end though, it would be a VERY big release. The dark eldar were bigger, but that's the scale we're looking at.
I absolutely agree. I think that any future Sisters release would need to be as big as the 2005 Dark Eldar release, partly to make up for 13 years (or more) of negative model support.
And I think that it would pay off, too - look how popular the Dark Eldar became!
Darthslowe wrote: I like where you are going with this, but I think we should think about this in terms of sprues. Packaging is cheap, the real sunk cost is in the tooling. The Death Watch is only a three sprue release, not counting the boxed games (Artemis kill team). It consists of two sprues for a kill team and an upgrade frame. These are then packaged with pre-existing product. This makes sense from a financial standpoint because that doesn't seem like a lot of investment. To do the Sisters of Battle would be much more cost heavy.
In reality they could do it in 10 sprues
Celestians and Command squad would share a box (two sprues).
Dominions, Sisters, and Retributors would share a set of sprues (however they package them). They could do a single sprue with 5 sisters and a single sprue with 2 each of the heavy weapons. Then, for Sisters boxes, put in two of the sisters sprues and one heavy weapon sprue. For the retributors, 2 heavy weapon, 1 sister (two more sprues, four total).
They would then need to do something with Seraphim. They would almost certainly release a new unit in conjunction with retooling Seraphim in plastic. Possibly something close combat oriented with power swords or what not. This would probably need 3 sprues because those jet packs are bulky (three more, seven total).
Then we have the repentia. They would probably leave these finecast (are they finecast and not metal? I haven't bought any in ages), so we won't count them.
Penitent Engines would get a double unit release in plastic. I'm not sure how many sprues this would cost. Maybe two of the big ones? (two more, nine total).
The vehicles shouldn't be a problem unless they want to add more variety. It would take a single sprue that was well designed to combine the exorcist and immolator. The only problem would be if they wanted to add Repressors, which I don't think they should as that's more of an Arbites thing. (one new sprue, ten total).
Then we get into adding new units and such. This would become even more intensive. In the end though, it would be a VERY big release. The dark eldar were bigger, but that's the scale we're looking at.
The other problem would be shelf space.
Edit: Numbers and such
Am I correct to assume the Heavy Weapons sprue for the Retributors would also include special weapons for Dominions?
In regards to Finecast, all Sororitas models are still metal, none have ever been changed to Finecast.
And shelf space isn't really a huge issue, since they have to deal with that every time they release a new army that didn't have models on the shelves before. We're not talking about a huge number of new boxes having to go on the shelves, they could probably find space for them like they did for the Mechanicus, Imperial Knights and every new kit that doesn't make another kit go out of production.
Oh, sure. I figure it wouldn't be hard to fit two each of heavy bolters, multi-meltas, and heavy flamers on the same sprue as two or three each of meltaguns, flamers, and storm bolters.
From what I've seen of Sisters, one sprue could have the bodies, legs, heads, arms, and maybe the bolters. Another would have the special and heavy weapons.
Sisters benefit from having a rather limited selection of weaponry for an imperial army.
Darthslowe wrote: Oh, sure. I figure it wouldn't be hard to fit two each of heavy bolters, multi-meltas, and heavy flamers on the same sprue as two or three each of meltaguns, flamers, and storm bolters.
From what I've seen of Sisters, one sprue could have the bodies, legs, heads, arms, and maybe the bolters. Another would have the special and heavy weapons.
Sisters benefit from having a rather limited selection of weaponry for an imperial army.
Okay. : D
I just wanted to be absolutely clear on the subject since you hadn't actually mentioned special weapons yet, only heavy ones, and it's not like people with no clue about Sororitas haven't offered opinions on them before. Not saying you're clueless about them, just that I don't know anything about you and thus it was not something I was able to exclude as a possibility.
And if Sisters do end up getting more weapons in the future (since they do use non-bolter/melta/flamer weapons on occasion), I guess they could either make those bits as a conversion kit, or preferably roll them into the standard kits if, as we all hope that this hypothetical update will make happen, Sororitas are doing well enough to be completely worth supporting with a full range of models and units.
Gen.Steiner wrote: Just to go back to the Repentia, one of my favourite bits of Sisters art is the double-page spread in Codex: Witchhunters with the battle cathedral and the puritan-hat-Inquisitor ... and the naked Repentia with sheets of confessions (?) pinned to them - and, in one case, pins through the eyes. This level of self-mutilation and death-wish-lunacy is something that the figures don't really portray, but it would be awesome to see. Doubt it'll happen outside of a third-party company though.
Pins... through the eyes...
I might need to glue those two pages together so I can never see that, because I never noticed that and now I might not be able to resist looking for it.
Yeah! Pins through the eyes. And there's another Repentia whose eyes are covered in a parchment 'bandage' with blood pouring down her cheeks, running forwards with one hand on the shoulder of the one in front.
See?
Ahah I love those repentia too, best depiction of the repentia ever. It really conveys the horror that they represent, rather than looking like BDSM.
You may notice that the two sentences after the part they quoted and said to, "Go on..." were 100% about those D-cup boobs.
Ahah I like you .
Also, have you maybe considered that you might have some mental difference that makes you think differently from most people? I heard some people have differences that makes them understand sentences literally even when they are meant and understood by most people much more figuratively, maybe Asperger or something?
(And I do not mean any of this in any kind of pejorative way, of course.)
I'm hoping for a box similar to the GK Strike Squad where they cram all of the options onto the sprues. Since Sisters won't need five variants of Nemesis Weapons per model there should be more than enough space to fit 10 bodies onto the same amount of sprues while having enough options to make Dominion Squads, Have Icons, make a single sister into a Hospitaler and another into a sergeant, and so forth. I think the only other set they would need is one for Seraphims (for wings and dual pistols), one for Repentia and a few clampacks for characters and we should be honky-dory for the infantry.
What I'm really hoping for is a combination Immolator/Repressor plastic Kit, a three-pack set for Penitent engines like the Killa-Kanz, the Aquilla Fighter in a plastic kit for their flyer and the Exorcist kit with a second option of a new tank of some sort in plastic as well.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Ahah I like you .
Also, have you maybe considered that you might have some mental difference that makes you think differently from most people? I heard some people have differences that makes them understand sentences literally even when they are meant and understood by most people much more figuratively, maybe Asperger or something?
(And I do not mean any of this in any kind of pejorative way, of course.)
Yes I have, and the possibility that my mind is functioning differently than most people's, coupled with how much more often it seems to be happening recently, is more terrifying than I'm willing to admit to myself.
Because I actually do have such a difference in my mind, and that difference is that I have schizophrenia and 99% of all humans do not. And I've been missing more and more doses of meds over the past few years, to the point where my family doctor and a psychiatrist have both concluded that some of my symptoms are coming back.
And schizophrenia is a mental illness that someone once said to me typically ends one of two ways. Either the patient takes their meds compliantly and ends up living the rest of their long, long life on welfare due to still being too crippled to actually hold a job, or they reject the meds and end up having a psychotic break serious enough to require the police to shoot and kill them.
Based on how they handled Grey Knights and the Skitarii (and the Deathwatch, for that matter) I'd expect a single power-armoured Sisters kit (three special and three heavy weapons instead of three special guns and multiple main weapon options for each model) and a separate Seraphim kit, Repentia to remain in Finecast, and a tank kit. Penitent Engines in plastic and a plastic Celestian/command squad kit are less likely.
Pouncey wrote: And schizophrenia is a mental illness that someone once said to me typically ends one of two ways. Either the patient takes their meds compliantly and ends up living the rest of their long, long life on welfare due to still being too crippled to actually hold a job, or they reject the meds and end up having a psychotic break serious enough to require the police to shoot and kill them.
Well ... I hope you get to live a long life on welfare, because that's frankly better than getting shot dead...
As for Sisters, why do they need a plane? They don't need a plane. The Imperial Navy has planes. Not the Ecclesiarchy.
AnomanderRake wrote: Based on how they handled Grey Knights and the Skitarii (and the Deathwatch, for that matter) I'd expect a single power-armoured Sisters kit (three special and three heavy weapons instead of three special guns and multiple main weapon options for each model) and a separate Seraphim kit, Repentia to remain in Finecast, and a tank kit. Penitent Engines in plastic and a plastic Celestian/command squad kit are less likely.
I actually looked it up on GW's site. Repentia are not in fact Finecast, they are still metal.
Pouncey wrote: And schizophrenia is a mental illness that someone once said to me typically ends one of two ways. Either the patient takes their meds compliantly and ends up living the rest of their long, long life on welfare due to still being too crippled to actually hold a job, or they reject the meds and end up having a psychotic break serious enough to require the police to shoot and kill them.
Well ... I hope you get to live a long life on welfare, because that's frankly better than getting shot dead...
I do too, since even when I was only missing 1-2 doses a year (typically due to falling asleep on the couch watching a movie) instead of 4-5 a week (typically due to wanting to stay up all night playing video games or arguing on forums), the side effects of the antipsychotics (i.e. the typical reason for schizophrenics not taking their meds) weren't actually too bad for me and my life was pretty decent. It's a situation I could very easily turn around on my own but haven't seemed to actually be able to.
As for Sisters, why do they need a plane? They don't need a plane. The Imperial Navy has planes. Not the Ecclesiarchy.
I dunno. Typically when someone suggests a flyer for Sororitas to take they say that the Lightning Strike Fighter would be the most suitable though. I assumed there was a lore reason for that.
Pouncey wrote: Because I actually do have such a difference in my mind, and that difference is that I have schizophrenia and 99% of all humans do not.
Okay, I guess that should clear up things for people that might think you are arguing in bad faith. You are not and that is 100% okay .
Pouncey wrote: And schizophrenia is a mental illness that someone once said to me typically ends one of two ways. Either the patient takes their meds compliantly and ends up living the rest of their long, long life on welfare due to still being too crippled to actually hold a job, or they reject the meds and end up having a psychotic break serious enough to require the police to shoot and kill them.
Then, just like Gen. Steiner, I really wish for you to live a long life on welfare. And really there is nothing wrong about living on welfare, no need to feel bad about that!
To purge the enemies of the Emperor faster. And to purge the airborne heretics. And all that jazz.
But... nooo... the Imperial Navy handles air support! It's bad enough that Valkyries are used by some Guard units, and that the Phantine exist (both in contravention of post-Heresy military Doctrine), let alone giving these legal loophole warrior nuns of the church militant air power, let them request Navy air assets if they need air cover!
Grumble grumble aircraft have no place in 40K mutter grumble
Darthslowe wrote: Oh, sure. I figure it wouldn't be hard to fit two each of heavy bolters, multi-meltas, and heavy flamers on the same sprue as two or three each of meltaguns, flamers, and storm bolters.
From what I've seen of Sisters, one sprue could have the bodies, legs, heads, arms, and maybe the bolters. Another would have the special and heavy weapons.
Sisters benefit from having a rather limited selection of weaponry for an imperial army.
Okay. : D
I just wanted to be absolutely clear on the subject since you hadn't actually mentioned special weapons yet, only heavy ones, and it's not like people with no clue about Sororitas haven't offered opinions on them before. Not saying you're clueless about them, just that I don't know anything about you and thus it was not something I was able to exclude as a possibility.
And if Sisters do end up getting more weapons in the future (since they do use non-bolter/melta/flamer weapons on occasion), I guess they could either make those bits as a conversion kit, or preferably roll them into the standard kits if, as we all hope that this hypothetical update will make happen, Sororitas are doing well enough to be completely worth supporting with a full range of models and units.
True. I actually am a Sisters player, sort of. I haven't played a game in a couple of years now, but I do still have my army. Dark Angels were my first love, but it was more a middle school crush. The way I feel about Sisters is much akin to meeting your soul mate at a work function, after having been married for 10 years. I love them deeply and passionately, but it will all go up in flames once my wife realizes where that money has been going
Darthslowe wrote: True. I actually am a Sisters player, sort of. I haven't played a game in a couple of years now, but I do still have my army. Dark Angels were my first love, but it was more a middle school crush. The way I feel about Sisters is much akin to meeting your soul mate at a work function, after having been married for 10 years. I love them deeply and passionately, but it will all go up in flames once my wife realizes where that money has been going
How big's your Sisters army? Mine's not massive (Living Saint, Command Squad, 10 Celestians, 2 squads of 10 Sisters, 5 Seraphim, 6 Dominions - all in Rhinos or Immolators, supported by an Exorcist - and then another squad of Seraphim is WIP, along with the Repentia and my Heavy Bolter Retributors), but it is probably one of my very most favouritist armies.
Sorry, got the name wrong, it should be the Lightning Fighter.
This is because this was their designated flyer during Soulstorm. Despite how crap that game was, it is the only instance of the SoBs having a flyer of any sort. And every faction in this game has a flyer nowadays, so might as well be one with some precedence (that and a Forge World Flyer is infinitely better than any crazy ones GW might come up with. The Blackstar is cool and all but I doubt GW can hit two home runs in a row in such a short amount of time).
In the game it had a pretty ferocious sister behind the helm. At least I think it did, haven't built one in years.
I also googled a bit and found the Avenger Strike Fighter. Anyone know if it canonically has a Sister behind the helm or if it's just "assigned" to them?
It's not got a Sister in the cockpit, because it's an Imperial Navy fighter craft.
Same way the Imperial Guard (Phantine excepted ) don't fly aircraft, because the Imperial Navy does it for them.
It was, in fact, the reason why the Space Marines didn't have any aircraft other than Thunderhawks either, but I guess somebody forgot about that bit...
Gen.Steiner wrote: But... nooo... the Imperial Navy handles air support!
The Navy handles interplanetary travel. But for planes… well, I guess you can go either way. But now that every army and their dog has fliers, either mechanical or giant monsters, seems only fair that the Sisters, who are described as a complete army, get one.
Gen.Steiner wrote: It's not got a Sister in the cockpit, because it's an Imperial Navy fighter craft.
Same way the Imperial Guard (Phantine excepted ) don't fly aircraft, because the Imperial Navy does it for them.
It was, in fact, the reason why the Space Marines didn't have any aircraft other than Thunderhawks either, but I guess somebody forgot about that bit...
Ah yes I remember the minor fluff booboo that was the Dark Angel aircrafts.
The Imperial Navy is responsible for all inter-solar military activity, and all air support and aerospace combat duties.
Local systems provide System Monitors and other interplanetary gunboats, sometimes, but these are mostly repurposed freighters and other Q-Ships.
The Imperial Guard's purview is exclusively ground (and sea) combat. It is for the same reason that there are no combined arms regiments - there are Armoured Regiments, but they have no artillery or infantry support. There are Artillery Regiments, with no infantry support. There are Infantry Regiments, with specialist infantry support vehicles... and no tanks.
It's all to reduce the impact of any one unit going renegade.
All that said, I have no objection to Sisters getting an atmocraft, so long as it's clearly an Imperial Navy ship, like the Valkyries, Vultures and Vendettas are.
Just like the distinction between infantry regiment, armored regiments and artillery regiments do not exists for the Sororitas, I think it would make perfect sense for them to also include their own aircraft. I mean, let's not forget that they exists through a semi-intentional loophole, and that they used to be the private elite force of someone who was both master of the administratum and the ministorum. I doubt that when Sebastian Thor forced the High Lords to allow them to remain as the Ministorum armed forces, he didn't sign an addendum saying “But we'll remove all their aircraft for no good reason, lol joke's on you now!”
Darthslowe wrote: Oh, sure. I figure it wouldn't be hard to fit two each of heavy bolters, multi-meltas, and heavy flamers on the same sprue as two or three each of meltaguns, flamers, and storm bolters.
From what I've seen of Sisters, one sprue could have the bodies, legs, heads, arms, and maybe the bolters. Another would have the special and heavy weapons.
Sisters benefit from having a rather limited selection of weaponry for an imperial army.
Okay. : D
I just wanted to be absolutely clear on the subject since you hadn't actually mentioned special weapons yet, only heavy ones, and it's not like people with no clue about Sororitas haven't offered opinions on them before. Not saying you're clueless about them, just that I don't know anything about you and thus it was not something I was able to exclude as a possibility.
And if Sisters do end up getting more weapons in the future (since they do use non-bolter/melta/flamer weapons on occasion), I guess they could either make those bits as a conversion kit, or preferably roll them into the standard kits if, as we all hope that this hypothetical update will make happen, Sororitas are doing well enough to be completely worth supporting with a full range of models and units.
True. I actually am a Sisters player, sort of. I haven't played a game in a couple of years now, but I do still have my army. Dark Angels were my first love, but it was more a middle school crush. The way I feel about Sisters is much akin to meeting your soul mate at a work function, after having been married for 10 years. I love them deeply and passionately, but it will all go up in flames once my wife realizes where that money has been going
I'm kinda lucky in that regard.
My significant other lives in another country, and I've never actually met him face-to-face despite having been with him in an online relationship since 2007 (weird, I know, but it actually works for us better than being together IRL since physical intimacy would be difficult due to neither one of us finding the other's real-life self physically attractive in any way and the concept of me and him having sex having a variety of problems that make it undesirable to begin with. Which I guess means that I can legitimately say that I'm in a loving relationship that is, undeniably, not because of any sort of physical attraction), so what either of us spend money on isn't something we have to argue about (well, we do, usually because he buys tons of little doodads on a whim but often says he doesn't have the funds to buy a game he wants to play that I'm looking forward to playing with him...).
In regards to my own enjoyment of Sisters of Battle though, it started when I saw the Sisters of Battle Codex (before Witch Hunters was a thing) and I was like, "That's so cool! But... they're all girls, and my friends will make fun of me if I play an army of girls." because I was in my mid-teens. Eventually I grew out of being a teenager though, and the idea of playing a female character in a game being something to make fun of had disappeared (because I'd spent a lot of that time playing female characters in video games too with none of my friends objecting), and I started picking up a Sisters of Battle army in the late Naughties. (naught meaning zero. Apply that concept to what we call a decade and realize what part of the 21st century I'm referring to) And now they've been my main army for years and if they got squatted it would likely be the end of me playing 40k at all.
The Imperial Navy is responsible for all inter-solar military activity, and all air support and aerospace combat duties.
The Imperial Navy is the LARGEST Imperial ship owner, but not the ONLY one. It would not be surprising that the Ecclesiarchy could obtain their own, say... small fleet of light cruisers and escorts for the sake of a crusade, or borrow one from the Navy, for example, plus transports for a planetary landing. In fact, I very much suspect that most senior Ecclesiarchal officials probably have their own private ship, though likely ceremonial and civilian in nature.
And even if they don't, they likely can easily get in to arrangements where they permanently borrow some, because surprise surprise, Imperial starship captains are no less prone to being Emperor-fearing Good Citizens. than any other noble.
The Imperial Navy is the LARGEST Imperial ship owner, but not the ONLY one. It would not be surprising that the Ecclesiarchy could obtain their own, say... small fleet of light cruisers and escorts for the sake of a crusade, or borrow one from the Navy, for example, plus transports for a planetary landing. In fact, I very much suspect that most senior Ecclesiarchal officials probably have their own private ship, though likely ceremonial and civilian in nature.
And even if they don't, they likely can easily get in to arrangements where tehy permanently borrow some.
I recall some lore about an attack on Fenris that involves a fleet of specifically Ecclesiarchy warships.
Which is why I said that the Imperial Navy is responsible for inter-solar military action.
Yes, the Inquisition has its Black Ships, but the primary method of an Inquisitor having naval power is to go to a Naval base and say "I am a member of the God-Emperor's Most Holy Ordos, and I am requisitioning this ship and that ship, and their crews, and if you obstruct me I will have you killed."
I'm not actually saying that any new Codex: Adepta Sororitas should be flyer-free (although as far as I know neither the Skitarii or Mechanicus codexes have flyers), just that it should be made very clear that the aircraft are Imperial Navy ones. It would be a good excuse to release, say, a plastic Thunderbolt.
A Sororitas flyer is all well and good - I can see them making it very fancy indeed.
That said, a Sororitas spaceship might be pushing it, if we assume that they are still trying to go under the radar of the decree passive. Not only is it very, well, big, a spaceship also needs a lot of guards and armsmen to keep discipline aboard and defend from boarders, and you'd need all of them to be of a single gender; a considerable hassle and all but unsustainable when out in the field for extended periods.
Of course, I doubt they are really concerned with the decree passive these days and the SoB are more a tradition than anything else (IoM loves traditions), so you might just get a spaceship that way.
I recall an argument in Proposed Rules some time ago over a Sisters flyer; I think there were people on the side of Valkyries or Valkyrie-variants and I'd been tweaking something based on the Stormraven chassis.
I'd rather the Sisters end up with something more space-age and less helicoptery than a Valkyrie if they were going to get their own Flyer; I'm planning on spending some time hacking on a Corvus Blackstar when I get my hands on one, I'll let you know how it goes.
AnomanderRake wrote: Based on how they handled Grey Knights and the Skitarii (and the Deathwatch, for that matter) I'd expect a single power-armoured Sisters kit (three special and three heavy weapons instead of three special guns and multiple main weapon options for each model) and a separate Seraphim kit, Repentia to remain in Finecast, and a tank kit. Penitent Engines in plastic and a plastic Celestian/command squad kit are less likely.
I actually looked it up on GW's site. Repentia are not in fact Finecast, they are still metal.
Released in Finecast, then. The point is the sculpt probably won't change.
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Gen.Steiner wrote: I'm not actually saying that any new Codex: Adepta Sororitas should be flyer-free (although as far as I know neither the Skitarii or Mechanicus codexes have flyers), just that it should be made very clear that the aircraft are Imperial Navy ones. It would be a good excuse to release, say, a plastic Thunderbolt.
I'd gotten a brainstorming document written for an Allied-only Imperial Navy book designed along the lines of the Assassins for stapling one or two Navy flyers to other Imperial detachments where it makes sense, given how they took the Assassins out of the Inquisition books and made them their own thing I'd expect that to be where the plastic Thunderbolt came from rather than in someone else's book.
The Avenger Strike Fighter. It's specifically listed as the preferred air support for the Sororitas (though still an Imperial Navy craft), and it's a sick model. I bought one for a Sisters-playing friend.
That said, this is GW we're talking about. Rather than putting a perfectly good pre-existing option into plastic, they'd probably make something that looks like a flying church.
Ashiraya wrote: A Sororitas flyer is all well and good - I can see them making it very fancy indeed.
That said, a Sororitas spaceship might be pushing it, if we assume that they are still trying to go under the radar of the decree passive. Not only is it very, well, big, a spaceship also needs a lot of guards and armsmen to keep discipline aboard and defend from boarders, and you'd need all of them to be of a single gender; a considerable hassle and all but unsustainable when out in the field for extended periods.
Of course, I doubt they are really concerned with the decree passive these days and the SoB are more a tradition than anything else (IoM loves traditions), so you might just get a spaceship that way.
There have IIRC been references to Sororitas void warships in the past - being fast and effective.
There is no reason that the crew would need to be all female - it could be done but Priests and other Church officials are male. I would think some frigates and a few Strike Cruisers - similar to the Arbites - who also have their own fleet.
I even did BFG rules for a SOB Frigate and converted one of my many spare ships
Well, Sisters *Can* use Valkyries without breaking Fluff
Inquisition can take 3 Valkyries in one Fast Attack Slot, so you could argue that the required Inquisitor (Ordo Hereticus, Obviously) is a Confessor with an Incinerator and Chainsword
Ashiraya wrote: Of course, I doubt they are really concerned with the decree passive these days
I doubt that very much, given that the Decree Passive is the only reason that the SoB exist at all within universe. I'm sure there are any number of contemporaries and competitors who would like nothing better than to forcibly disarm the Ecclesiarchy, given an appropriate pretext. The abandonment of the Decree Passive would be more than sufficient cause.
The Decree Passive is an existential hook, without which, the Ecclesiarchy ceases to have the means to enforce its will by force.
Where the fluff gets it wrong is having the Ecclesiarchy's Chamber Militant providing more than token support to Imperial Military campaigns for morale purposes. Sisters are inspirational to the actual bulk of fighters a la Joan of Arc, rather than providing that bulk themselves.
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AnomanderRake wrote: I'd rather the Sisters end up with something more space-age and less helicoptery than a Valkyrie if they were going to get their own Flyer; I'm planning on spending some time hacking on a Corvus Blackstar when I get my hands on one, I'll let you know how it goes.
OK, I just saw the pics, and that new Corvus Blackstar is a pretty nice mini. I wouldn't mind having one to go with my Valk.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm sure there are any number of contemporaries and competitors who would like nothing better than to forcibly disarm the Ecclesiarchy, given an appropriate pretext.
I believe the reason why they can't is more related to the Ecclesiarchy's power and influence than to not finding a pretext. I mean, just a quick reminder, the Ecclesiarchy usually have 2 or more representatives among High Lords of Terra. That's just how powerful they are.
I think as others have said re the practicalities of a sisters release. I can see GW rationalising the range down to one sprue. So it could be that Repentia actually get squatted. And you get regular Sister squads and dominion squads on one sprue, and the Seraphim and a close combat unit branching off on another sprue. Unless they make something that can do double duty with Repentia, maybe death cult assasin?
Repentia could be repurposes to also make female Priests.
I can totally see that happening too. However even the Grey Knights have at least two infantry boxes, with the Terminator Armor ones only really useful for Terminators, Paladins and Character conversions while the Strike Squad pulls duty as Interceptors, Purifiers, Purgation squads, etc. the Sisters having two or even three boxes isn't that unreasonable, especially since they can all have multiple purposes without much modification (I could see Seraphims getting their own box and then getting something equivalent to Vanguard Veterans for the sisters).
I can only imagine how awesome the plastic models would be though... Plastic Repentia would be amazeballs! I bet they could pull off the pins in eyes stuff proper nice like
Let's be honest. At this point, any figures at all would be welcomed (mostly) with open arms and ululations of joy. Even if they just brought back all the old Sister Superior models and the variant special and heavy weapon models, and suchlike.
No Seraphim Superior (there were two, definitely, and possibly three - one with power sword and plasma pistol, one with bolt pistol and power sword in helmet, perhaps also one with a chainsword?)
One missing Seraphim with bolt pistol sculpt.
No Imagifer with parchment banner.
No Banner Bearer with bare head and empty pole so any flag can be added.
Missing alternate sculpts for every Special Weapon (IIRC there were two variants of each at least, usually helmeted and unhelmeted, some had different poses with their guns too)
No Sister Superior with plasma pistol and chainsword
No Sister Superior with bolt pistol and chainsword
No Sister Superior with combi-flamer.
No Sister Superior with power maul.
No Sister Dialogus.
No Confessor Kyrinov with Mace of Valaan.
I could go on, I think, but I won't. You get the idea.
That and technically there's no legitimate way to get a Immolator other than by conversion. (I say technically because I heard that you can get the immolator parts from the Exorcist, but that is still technically a conversion). It's like that era where Bretonnians were missing their standard bearer model.
Gamgee wrote: Honestly yes. SoB is horribly bland and generic. The most interesting SoB stuff usually doesn't look like generic female space marines.
Bland and generic? In what other setting does there exist power armored females in sexualized corset power armor (with high heels) mixed with Gothic medieval imagery and bob cuts? I don't know about you but that seems way too idiosyncratic to be generic nor would I call that idea bland,
In fact that's awesome, especially through the lens of 40k's over the top juvenile 12 year old boy mentality of "Grim Dark" (it's so over the top "Grim Dark" it becomes goofy rather than actually being "Grim Dark" which I love).
JohnHwangDD wrote: To which, I reply "Eh, so what?" None of that matters.
The have Sisters on foot and Sisters with JPs and all of the trinity weapons. That's what actually matters.
...what
Oh, actually existing as a supported army isn't good enough for you?
I've had my much larger Dogs of War army Squatted, so you don't get to pull that crap. Perhaps GW formally pulling your Sisters out of the catalog entirely is what you ingrates need to change your tune.
JohnHwangDD wrote: To which, I reply "Eh, so what?" None of that matters.
The have Sisters on foot and Sisters with JPs and all of the trinity weapons. That's what actually matters.
...what
Oh, actually existing as a supported army isn't good enough for you?
I've had my much larger Dogs of War army Squatted, so you don't get to pull that crap. Perhaps GW formally pulling your Sisters out of the catalog entirely is what you ingrates need to change your tune.
So because you're unhappy nobody should have decent army support?
While it is great that GW have not "squatted" Sisters, and I'm sure Sisters fans are all very grateful for that, it's irrelevant to whether or not the army could use - or in fact really is in dire need of - expanded support, including at the very least bringing existing models back into print. Now I'd argue that is a losing strategy, overall. If GW wants to make more money on Sisters, they need to revamp the range.
Absent a revamp, existing beats the hell out of not existing, simple as that. The fact is, if GW ever finishes selling their stock of variant #1, they'll swithc to selling variant #2. But first, they need to finish selling the stuff the cast decades ago, and that ain't happening.
The problem is we saw what happened to the Bretonnians (where GW briefly re-released all of their good stuff during the End Times, then a few months down the road squatted the entire army wholesale). It's the shadows of things to come.
I have a bretonnian army, I was gonna get cute pegasi for them ;_;
On that note I find it weirdly funny that both share the fleur de lis emblem.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Oh, actually existing as a supported army isn't good enough for you?
I've had my much larger Dogs of War army Squatted, so you don't get to pull that crap. Perhaps GW formally pulling your Sisters out of the catalog entirely is what you ingrates need to change your tune.
Amusingly enough, since I started playing GW games, I've had official rules and model support for the following games and armies dropped:
Necromunda, Mordheim, Inquisitor, Epic 40K and Epic Armageddon, Battlefleet Gothic, Gorkamorka, Bretonians, Tomb Kings, my Doctrine-Guard armies (now all broken apart and sold off), and probably one or two other things I don't recall. Oh, I also miss the old Forest Goblins that I wanted to add to my Savage Orc army.
Amazingly enough, I can still be disappointed by the paucity of the Sister of Battle and Inquisition ranges, given that I can clearly remember what they looked like not so long ago.
Gamgee wrote: Honestly yes. SoB is horribly bland and generic. The most interesting SoB stuff usually doesn't look like generic female space marines.
Bland and generic? In what other setting does there exist power armored females in sexualized corset power armor (with high heels) mixed with Gothic medieval imagery and bob cuts? I don't know about you but that seems way too idiosyncratic to be generic nor would I call that idea bland,
In fact that's awesome, especially through the lens of 40k's over the top juvenile 12 year old boy mentality of "Grim Dark" (it's so over the top "Grim Dark" it becomes goofy rather than actually being "Grim Dark" which I love).
The Sisters of Battles models have actually never had high heels.
They do in some of the art, but none of the models have high heels.
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JohnHwangDD wrote: Absent a revamp, existing beats the hell out of not existing, simple as that. The fact is, if GW ever finishes selling their stock of variant #1, they'll swithc to selling variant #2. But first, they need to finish selling the stuff the cast decades ago, and that ain't happening.
If they haven't run down their stock after over a decade... either that's one hell of an unpopular army we're fans of, or GW grossly overestimated how many they'd need to make.
I mean generic within the context of 40k. Basically female space marines. Wow such innovative. I'm not much a fan of regular marines and how generic most of them are (Deathwatch and Blood Ravens noted exceptions). Visually they need something to set themselves apart because from a distance at an immediate read I just see female space marines. At a glance in their lore the gist of it is angry zealous female space marines punish sinners. Wow. I mean there is some uniqueness there. It's not carbon copy pasted, but for the most part they could very well just be another generic marine chapter. A one footnote. A line going in one direction. Not even a particularly interesting direction.
However when I see their Repentia I think damn I want to paint that model and have an army based around that cool concept. That is stuff you don't see the marines having. When I see their walker thing and the lore behind these units. I think. Maybe I want to paint them since they stand out so much from the bog standard female marines chapter tm* They need to redo the sisters (mildly) with a focus on zealousness and faith. Their models need to truly show they can do stuff with faith that regular marines couldn't hope to do. They need to give me the feeling they are punishing the sinners. I would love to see them collar prisoners to use in mass suicide attacks that either survive or blow up when they die in melee. The army needs to add that layer of punishment in the name of the Emperor and the ability for their faith to work miracles on everything. And actually show how.
As I said I could sit here and come up with my entire idea for a revamped sisters (who I would fold into a pan Ordo Hereticus release) and then we have all three orders represented. That would be doing GW's job however. I would not remove the power armor sisters, just deemphasize it as not their main thing.
Gamgee wrote: I mean generic within the context of 40k. Basically female space marines. Wow such innovative. I'm not much a fan of regular marines and how generic most of them are (Deathwatch and Blood Ravens noted exceptions). Visually they need something to set themselves apart because from a distance at an immediate read I just see female space marines. At a glance in their lore the gist of it is angry zealous female space marines punish sinners. Wow. I mean there is some uniqueness there. It's not carbon copy pasted, but for the most part they could very well just be another generic marine chapter. A one footnote. A line going in one direction. Not even a particularly interesting direction.
But they're not Space Marines. Space Marines are post-human gene- and bio-engineered monstrosities that are, actually, extremely uncommon; seeing one would be akin to a medieval peasant actually seeing an angel. Sisters of Battle are normal human women, raised from youth to become fanatical religious warriors, who are present all across the galaxy; they guard shrines, form the bodyguard to high-ranking Ecclesiarchical officials, monitor and guard pilgrim routes, are involved in the Black Ships, and so on and so forth. They, alongside the PDF and Arbites, are often the first line of defence a world has against the alien and the heretic.
The fact that you go "power armour = Marines" and don't actually bother to read their background doesn't actually make them a "generic Marine chapter".
Gamgee wrote: I mean generic within the context of 40k. Basically female space marines. Wow such innovative. I'm not much a fan of regular marines and how generic most of them are (Deathwatch and Blood Ravens noted exceptions). Visually they need something to set themselves apart because from a distance at an immediate read I just see female space marines. At a glance in their lore the gist of it is angry zealous female space marines punish sinners. Wow. I mean there is some uniqueness there. It's not carbon copy pasted, but for the most part they could very well just be another generic marine chapter. A one footnote. A line going in one direction. Not even a particularly interesting direction.
But they're not Space Marines. Space Marines are post-human gene- and bio-engineered monstrosities that are, actually, extremely uncommon; seeing one would be akin to a medieval peasant actually seeing an angel. Sisters of Battle are normal human women, raised from youth to become fanatical religious warriors, who are present all across the galaxy; they guard shrines, form the bodyguard to high-ranking Ecclesiarchical officials, monitor and guard pilgrim routes, are involved in the Black Ships, and so on and so forth. They, alongside the PDF and Arbites, are often the first line of defence a world has against the alien and the heretic.
The fact that you go "power armour = Marines" and don't actually bother to read their background doesn't actually make them a "generic Marine chapter".
Yeah when I look at them they just look like space marines. I don't care what their lore says. If I'm a new consumer looking to get into an army. Their whole look just says "female space marines".
Gamgee wrote: I mean generic within the context of 40k. Basically female space marines. Wow such innovative. I'm not much a fan of regular marines and how generic most of them are (Deathwatch and Blood Ravens noted exceptions). Visually they need something to set themselves apart because from a distance at an immediate read I just see female space marines. At a glance in their lore the gist of it is angry zealous female space marines punish sinners. Wow. I mean there is some uniqueness there. It's not carbon copy pasted, but for the most part they could very well just be another generic marine chapter. A one footnote. A line going in one direction. Not even a particularly interesting direction.
But they're not Space Marines. Space Marines are post-human gene- and bio-engineered monstrosities that are, actually, extremely uncommon; seeing one would be akin to a medieval peasant actually seeing an angel. Sisters of Battle are normal human women, raised from youth to become fanatical religious warriors, who are present all across the galaxy; they guard shrines, form the bodyguard to high-ranking Ecclesiarchical officials, monitor and guard pilgrim routes, are involved in the Black Ships, and so on and so forth. They, alongside the PDF and Arbites, are often the first line of defence a world has against the alien and the heretic.
The fact that you go "power armour = Marines" and don't actually bother to read their background doesn't actually make them a "generic Marine chapter".
Yeah when I look at them they just look like space marines. I don't care what their lore says. If I'm a new consumer looking to get into an army. Their whole look just says "female space marines".
Gamgee wrote: Yeah when I look at them they just look like space marines.
Maybe it's you that's boring, then, because I see tons of differences, visual, between the two. There's a large stylistic difference between Sororitas power armor and Astartes power armor, even as both very clearly signify as Imperial. The shoulders, the boots, the gloves, the helmets, the torso, the cloth portions-- the only part that's the same is the backpack, really, and even then, only fo the common sisters, as Canonesses often have very unique backpacks themselves.
Gamgee wrote: Yeah when I look at them they just look like space marines. I don't care what their lore says. If I'm a new consumer looking to get into an army. Their whole look just says "female space marines".
Er.
No? At least not to me. But then this boils down to a subjective interpretation of their aesthetic.
Gamgee wrote: Yeah when I look at them they just look like space marines. I don't care what their lore says. If I'm a new consumer looking to get into an army. Their whole look just says "female space marines".
Er.
No? At least not to me. But then this boils down to a subjective interpretation of their aesthetic.
Well, if you look at them the right way, they are pretty much identical.
It's just that that "right way" involves distilling both down to "powerful human in high-tech plate armor with a big gun."
Which basically means you'd have to purposefully avoid recognizing that many of the very important differences in aesthetic and lore are actually differences.
Yes, I agree, but it's still all subjective, innit. I mean we can foam at the mouth as much as we want but others can still go "Urm... nah... they're Spess Muhreens!"
I mean they're wrong, but it's not something that can be objectively proved at any point, is it? Not unless we start treating the whole thing like a Wittgensteinian language game and define every word we're using.
Gen.Steiner wrote: Yes, I agree, but it's still all subjective, innit. I mean we can foam at the mouth as much as we want but others can still go "Urm... nah... they're Spess Muhreens!"
I mean they're wrong, but it's not something that can be objectively proved at any point, is it? Not unless we start treating the whole thing like a Wittgensteinian language game and define every word we're using.
Which a lot of people must have done since they are so unpopular. Like I said there are small elements that currently exist I could see them expanding on and making the primary focus of the army to make them stand out.
Imagine if the Sisters of the Fire Cast came out tomorrow. That would be ridiculous. What sets them apart from some minor lore tweaks and being female? They are basically just the Tau Empire.
How about the Sisters of Omissiah? Sisters of the Necrontyr? It's ridiculous and boils it down to oh look here is an all female army just to have an all female army. They are totally not just a minor boring spin on their parent factions.
Even their name is so boring. Sisters of Battle... snore. About the most generic thing in 40k. Everyone fights in every faction. So what do they call themselves the sisters of... battle. Wow.
From the top down from a lore and visual design perspective they and even marketing they are a disaster. However that does not mean with some proper development and something to set them apart from being so generic (except female) could see their popularity rise.
Their lore has also not been handled well. Oh use my blood to protect yourself senpai. I exaggerate a little, but it's true. They often get upstaged.
Their whole army sucks and that's why no one plays it. Seriously. The metal minis are the cherry on top.
Now as I said there are ways to make cool space nuns, but they way they were handled is the real travesty of lack of creativity.
There have been countless polls on dakka and other forums "If the SoB got an update to plastic would you play them" and almost universally the poll results are no. SoB fans are a small super minority. I'm not knocking you for liking it just explaining why I don't and a lot of people out there list many of the reasons I do. I'm a harsh critic because I believe anything can be made successful and cool. I want the developers to see what I say and maybe take some inspiraiton for what to do or not to do on how to approach it.
Sororitas have gloves that give off a medieval brigandine-armor feel, while Astartes have plated science fiction power armor gauntlets. Astartes have broad, sci-fi looking boots, while Sororitas have boots that look something closer to medieval platemail. Sororitas have shoulders styled after epaulettes to an extent, with decorative cloth sleeves hanging from them, while the iconic Astartes pauldron is a single curved plate that covers the shoudler and upper arms. The torsos of each are drastically different, with AStartes torso bearing a single decorative note on its chestplate in most depictions (usually an aquila) but otherwise often looking like a bundle of armored cables and intersecting plates that continue the sci-fi feel of the armor. And hte Sabbat pattern helm is very distinct, unlike anything in the Astartes line, either the standard helmet styles or the beakies, neither are like the sleek Sabbat helmet.
The statement is just... factually wrong. It's like looking at a Stormtrooper and saying "oh, they have fancy helmets, they must be Space Marines". Or seeing Bullgryns and thinking "crude armor and big guns, oh, they must be Orks."
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Gamgee wrote: Even their name is so boring. Sisters of Battle... snore. About the most generic thing in 40k. Everyone fights in every faction. So what do they call themselves the sisters of... battle. Wow.
This from a guy who thinks Space Marines, the most generic of genericness, any time they see someone in armor. I'll take your complaint about their name with a bucket of salt.
Gamgee wrote: There have been countless polls on dakka and other forums "If the SoB got an update to plastic would you play them" and almost universally the poll results are no.
Uh... no. There's always been a huge number of yes votes to those polls.
I don't like Space Marines actually. That's pretty well known on these forums. Anyways personal attacks aside I'm starting to repeat myself so I'll be going now.
Gamgee wrote: Their whole army sucks and that's why no one plays it. Seriously. The metal minis are the cherry on top.
...
There have been countless polls on dakka and other forums "If the SoB got an update to plastic would you play them" and almost universally the poll results are no. SoB fans are a small super minority. I'm not knocking you for liking it just explaining why I don't and a lot of people out there list many of the reasons I do. I'm a harsh critic because I believe anything can be made successful and cool. I want the developers to see what I say and maybe take some inspiraiton for what to do or not to do on how to approach it.
The army sucks; but you're not knocking us for liking the army, we're just wrong, because no-one plays Sisters.
I think you're aiming for "constructive criticism" and hitting "being a numptie" instead, chum.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Absent a revamp, existing beats the hell out of not existing, simple as that. The fact is, if GW ever finishes selling their stock of variant #1, they'll swithc to selling variant #2. But first, they need to finish selling the stuff the cast decades ago, and that ain't happening.
If they haven't run down their stock after over a decade... either that's one hell of an unpopular army we're fans of, or GW grossly overestimated how many they'd need to make.
A little of column A, a little of column B...
If you go to the GW website, consider that they're also still selling squads of 2E Tallarn and other metal infantry.
If you think I made a personal attack, please feel free to report my post. I would not hesitate to do the same if I felt you had done so.
But I did not make one. I pointed out the simple fact of the matter that there are huge differences, regardless of whether or not you're willing to see them. If you blindly go about saying "sisters wear power armor so they must be marines", you might as well say "Eldar are Space Marines because they wear full body armor and are elite warriors", and "tau are cadians because their armor is kinda similar and they both use gunlines", as well. Or "tyranids must be orks because they're both hordes of aliens who use huge numbers to overwhelm their enemies".
If you willfully disregard the meaningful differences between any factions, everything starts to look the same.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Absent a revamp, existing beats the hell out of not existing, simple as that. The fact is, if GW ever finishes selling their stock of variant #1, they'll swithc to selling variant #2. But first, they need to finish selling the stuff the cast decades ago, and that ain't happening.
If they haven't run down their stock after over a decade... either that's one hell of an unpopular army we're fans of, or GW grossly overestimated how many they'd need to make.
A little of column A, a little of column B...
If you go to the GW website, consider that they're also still selling squads of 2E Tallarn and other metal infantry.
Probably because they're still making them.
Which would make it impossible to run down the stocks if you're just gonna keep making more.
If I remember even the Exorcist can't make the Immolator as it was designed to, as the Exorcist lacks the clear canopy for the Immolator's top.
Shame too, the Immolator was the only set that didn't have a good reason for them to squat (the only all-plastic sisters set) and it was a kickass model. I was gonna use them for my GK's razorbacks.
Gamgee wrote: I don't like Space Marines actually. That's pretty well known on these forums. Anyways personal attacks aside I'm starting to repeat myself so I'll be going now.
Given your borderline obsession with the Tau and how everything about them is the best thing in the history of the universe - I think it might be best to tr and understand that perhaps, maybe other people are equally enthused about other factions.
Pouncey wrote: Erm, I'm suddenly remembering Bretonnians. They had the fleur de lis too, despite being named Bretonnians.
Well, Brittany is part of France . And I don't know how they are named in English but on the French book I have, many of them have very French-sounding names, unlike the Empire ones that have German-sounding names.
Pouncey wrote: Erm, I'm suddenly remembering Bretonnians. They had the fleur de lis too, despite being named Bretonnians.
Well, Brittany is part of France . And I don't know how they are named in English but on the French book I have, many of them have very French-sounding names, unlike the Empire ones that have German-sounding names.
Yeah, the Bretonnians are basically 100 Years War French knights paired with English peasantry, set in Magic France with a healthy dollop of King Arthur and the Round Table as seen through L'Mort D'Arthur, as if interpreted by drunken Tolkein. I love 'em!
Hey, regarding that fan math that resulted in there likely being 10 billion Sisters of Battle... Did anyone notice that it essentially assumed that 1 in 50 Imperial women are put through the training to become Sisters of Battle at all?
Given how many billions of people live in each hive city, having 1 in 50 of them get pulled out to start Sororitas training seems way too high. Even if they account for the vast bulk of the 99% of "stuff happens" cases accounted for later on, that would only drive it down to 1 in 5,000. The population of a Hive City is measured in tens of billions, so it would mean that each Hive City is supplying more than 5 million potential Sisters of Battle to the Schola.
I think maybe the math just assumes that more people would even be considered for even starting the training than really would be.
Misogynistic trolls aside, I assumed a few dozen millions, myself. 36-72 million is not a far-fetched number in this setting given the trillions of humans. Billions might very well be overstating it, but millions is not. Especially if, as suggested in the Cain series, female Progenies students are heavily pushed towards the Sisters and away from the commissariat, stormtroopers, and other Schola Progenium schools.
Misogynistic trolls aside, I assumed a few dozen millions, myself. 36-72 million is not a far-fetched number in this setting given the trillions of humans. Billions might very well be overstating it, but millions is not. Especially if, as suggested in the Cain series, female Progenies students are heavily pushed towards the Sisters and away from the commissariat, stormtroopers, and other Schola Progenium schools.
Dozens of millions would make sense, absolutely.
They should be more common than Space Marines, who number at or under one million, but less common than Imperial Guard, who number in the tens to hundreds of billions.
36-72 million would fall into that perfectly fine.
Well, without much effort, my homebrew Sector was producing billions of Imperial Guard.
I don't see any issue with there being billions of Sororitas throughout the Imperium - consider that there's also the Orders Famulous, Hospitaller and Dialogus as well as the Orders Militant.
The Imperial Guard numbers in the hundreds of billions, the population of the Imperium numbers in the trillions. These are Quite Big Numbers.
Gen.Steiner wrote: Well, without much effort, my homebrew Sector was producing billions of Imperial Guard.
I don't see any issue with there being billions of Sororitas throughout the Imperium - consider that there's also the Orders Famulous, Hospitaller and Dialogus as well as the Orders Militant.
The Imperial Guard numbers in the hundreds of billions, the population of the Imperium numbers in the trillions. These are Quite Big Numbers.
Correction.
The population of the Imperium numbers in the quadrillions.
Imperial Guard are actually only about 1 in 100,000 Imperial citizens, and that's if you assume there are around 200 billion of them.
Misogynistic trolls aside, I assumed a few dozen millions, myself. 36-72 million is not a far-fetched number in this setting given the trillions of humans. Billions might very well be overstating it, but millions is not. Especially if, as suggested in the Cain series, female Progenies students are heavily pushed towards the Sisters and away from the commissariat, stormtroopers, and other Schola Progenium schools.
Dont the non militant orders outnumber the Militant ones by a huge amount.
Its the usual Black Library authors have a huge variety of female characters in all walks of life and roels withn the Imperium whilst GW runs a mile from the idea :(
Misogynistic trolls aside, I assumed a few dozen millions, myself. 36-72 million is not a far-fetched number in this setting given the trillions of humans. Billions might very well be overstating it, but millions is not. Especially if, as suggested in the Cain series, female Progenies students are heavily pushed towards the Sisters and away from the commissariat, stormtroopers, and other Schola Progenium schools.
Dont the non militant orders outnumber the Militant ones by a huge amount.
Its the usual Black Library authors have a huge variety of female characters in all walks of life and roels withn the Imperium whilst GW runs a mile from the idea :(
My understanding is that the non-militant orders combined roughly equal the Sisters of Battle in number.
Mr Morden wrote: Dont the non militant orders outnumber the Militant ones by a huge amount.
If they are anything like any other organization, that would be true. If you look at any military organization, the support tail easily outnumbers the fighting tooth by a considerable margin. Having non-militant orders would only skew that ratio even further. Particularly in a Gothic universe, where lives are as cheap as in Medieval times.
But GW is crap with numbers and such, so anybody's guess would be fine.
Mr Morden wrote: Dont the non militant orders outnumber the Militant ones by a huge amount.
If they are anything like any other organization, that would be true. If you look at any military organization, the support tail easily outnumbers the fighting tooth by a considerable margin. Having non-militant orders would only skew that ratio even further. Particularly in a Gothic universe, where lives are as cheap as in Medieval times.
But GW is crap with numbers and such, so anybody's guess would be fine.
Life in the 40k universe might even be cheaper than it was in Medieval times.
I mean, if the Imperum lost half of its population, it would still have 10 quadrillion people, more than enough to feed every branch of their military to its fullest.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I should point out that Potential Sisters recruits are taken from the Schola Progenium, which manages the Imperium's orphans.
Given just how much war happens in the imperium, there are a lot of orphans out there.
1 in 50 Imperial citizens dying to war would be really, REALLY high though.
Situations where you'd see casualties like that on the scale of the entire Imperium, while certainly possible, would involve entire hive cities getting eradicated, at which point there would be no orphans - the children would be dead too. We're talking two thousand times more civilians dying than make up the entire Imperial Guard. And the IG lore refers to "a few million casualties" in one day being a HIGH number.
It would actually be more like 1 in every 10-20 citizen dying to war and leaving an orphan, cuz not all girls destined for the Schola will become a Sister of Battle (although the majority will) since psykers would be taken away to either feed the golden throne, become sanctioned psykers, or just killed, while the not-so-pious girls would probably end up in a more mundane position like the Scions, Commissariat (unless they ret-conned both to be men-only) or an administrative position.
And that's not even getting into account how roughly half of the orphans would be boys to begin with.
However given the state of the imperium and how many worlds are described as "feudal" I wouldn't be surprised if the average citizen had something like 10-15 children. And that's assuming of the ones killed off; More likely kids would be abandoned at the foot of the local Ecclesiarchy and then get sent to the Schola.
That too. Remember if we go by every piece of lore, the Bell of Lost Heroes would be ringing faster than a bell could be physically rung due to the hilarious amounts of casualties, and it would still have a huge backlog to work through.
Alhough it is very likely that most of the products of the Schola end up as Administratum clerks etc, GW does not mention that sort of thing anymore - and I understand that the latest depection in the Tempestus Codex has it being more like the the Hunger Games in there.
GW has always (IIRC) said that male students can be Navy officers, Commissars and Stormtroopers aswell as Priests. Females can be Sororitas, Inquisitors or Assassins. The current SOB codex has copy pasted the old text.
Of course Black Library has many females in all the above "male" roles (which IMO is a good thing)
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: That too. Remember if we go by every piece of lore, the Bell of Lost Heroes would be ringing faster than a bell could be physically rung due to the hilarious amounts of casualties, and it would still have a huge backlog to work through.
That's a math task for anyone willing to find out how much G-force would be applied to the person ringing the bell and the bell itself.
I know a guy like that, but he does video game stuff.
He figured out how Fallout Mininukes could possibly work. Sorta. He eventually realized that answering that question adequately would equate to providing a guide on how to make a mininuke with 84 cents of radioactive material, and decided to stop even trying. And he also realized that while it could theoretically be done, nuclear physics are so complicated that he wouldn't be able to learn enough to figure out how to do it. Oh, and he also figured out that the amount of radiation released would kill everyone within 200 feet of the detonation within a few minutes.
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Mr Morden wrote: Alhough it is very likely that most of the products of the Schola end up as Administratum clerks etc, GW does not mention that sort of thing anymore - and I understand that the latest depection in the Tempestus Codex has it being more like the the Hunger Games in there.
GW has always (IIRC) said that male students can be Navy officers, Commissars and Stormtroopers aswell as Priests. Females can be Sororitas, Inquisitors or Assassins. The current SOB codex has copy pasted the old text.
Of course Black Library has many females in all the above "male" roles (which IMO is a good thing)
So... should we just leave the question of how many Sororitas exist at "more common than Space Marines, less common than IG" and be satisfied, since the numbers don't exist to adequately answer that question and GW has yet to provide a way to even figure it out accurately?
If I rememeber the anecdote was that the bell would have to be completely rung in the span of a fraction of a second considering that every space marine is considered a "hero", not to mention commendations given to entire regiments, regular deaths, posthumous honors, whatever the Eccelsiarchy "Declares" as a hero, and so forth. So that bell would probably need to be designed to be rung at sub-sonic speeds just to break even.
I can find you his video where he figures out how much G-force a cyborg ninja's arm and sword would have to sustain to reflect 6 miniguns firing at him in unison, if that would help?
His conclusion was that there is no material known to man which is capable of surviving the experience though. And it's a way more extreme situation.
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JohnHwangDD wrote: If you consider the "bell" to be small enough, you can get over 100 per second...
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: It's still too early for this much silly in my life. At least I woke up to a good mood today.
I'm imagining a bell ringing at the same rate as a minigun firing, and I think I might become a heretic and burn down that bell's church for some peace and quiet, even if it means being burned alive by the Sororitas.
But then I also remember that that bell has been ringing at that rate for my entire life so I've probably gotten used to it already and wouldn't think anything of it.
No wonder all Imperial Equipment looks like they can shatter ear drums just by using it, by this point those humans must all have ear drums made of steel.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: No wonder all Imperial Equipment looks like they can shatter ear drums just by using it, by this point those humans must all have ear drums made of steel.
Or maybe they just don't live in hearing range of the Bell of... Heroes... or whatever it's called?
I never bought the "it's too expensive" argument. Russian and Polish companies have managed to produce lines of 28mm one-off Sisters models that look just fine. GW doesn't have the same resources as small Eastern European shops?
Considering the sky-high prices for Sisters on the secondary market, there is still demand for them. If "nobody played them" they wouldn't be selling for $5-6+ per bolter Sister model.
Then the heart of the argument...if you buff it, they will come. Give the sisters a real, viable, codex that can compete at mid-to-high-tier (with models) and they'll see play. Guaranteed.
So it's a choice by GW, for what it's worth. The least they could do is be honest with the player base about it. It also looks pretty bad when they just hang factions out to dry with no real explanation. Which faction will be next to be orphaned? Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence for players to invest in armies other than SM.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: That too. Remember if we go by every piece of lore, the Bell of Lost Heroes would be ringing faster than a bell could be physically rung due to the hilarious amounts of casualties, and it would still have a huge backlog to work through.
That's a math task for anyone willing to find out how much G-force would be applied to the person ringing the bell and the bell itself.
Lorewise the Bell doesn't get rung for everyone, it's for heroic last stands/significant individuals. I'm going to do some XKCD-style random guesswork for fun here.
The Warhammer wiki lists 205 distinct Imperial planets with their own pages, of which nine contain Space Marine Fortress-Monasteries. Since GW maintains that there are about a thousand Chapters in existence at any one time that's giving us about 23,000 distinct major planets. Guessing about 7 billion as an average population (the densely-populated hive worlds are balanced out by the sparsely-populated agri-worlds and feral worlds) that gives us a galactic population of around 1.6*10^14 humans.
Now assuming the standards of heroism for getting the Bell of Lost Souls rung at your death are on par with the standards the U.S. puts on getting the Congressional Medal of Honor (which has been awarded to 3,496 people over 153 years, for a rate of almost one person every two weeks), adjusting for population (going from an average population of about 165 million over the aforementioned 153 years to 1.6*10^14 people makes this approximate Imperium around a million times the size of the Imperium), we get roughly a million bell rings a fortnight.
Adjusting the units down that's only actually 49.6 rings a minute, just under one per second. Difficult if you want to be suitably large/dramatic about the bell ring, but building a bell to withstand that rate of ringing wouldn't actually be that difficult. A bigger problem is how Holy Terra can sleep with the giant-ass bell going off fifty rings a minute day and night, or what happens when it wears out and has to be replaced.
WhiteBobcat wrote: I never bought the "it's too expensive" argument. Russian and Polish companies have managed to produce lines of 28mm one-off Sisters models that look just fine. GW doesn't have the same resources as small Eastern European shops?
Considering the sky-high prices for Sisters on the secondary market, there is still demand for them. If "nobody played them" they wouldn't be selling for $5-6+ per bolter Sister model.
Then the heart of the argument...if you buff it, they will come. Give the sisters a real, viable, codex that can compete at mid-to-high-tier (with models) and they'll see play. Guaranteed.
So it's a choice by GW, for what it's worth. The least they could do is be honest with the player base about it. It also looks pretty bad when they just hang factions out to dry with no real explanation. Which faction will be next to be orphaned? Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence for players to invest in armies other than SM.
Metal and resin are actually cheaper to produce than plastic. It's because of the molds.
A mold for a plastic sprue has to be made of very carefully cut aluminum. I've heard that the molds for a plastic model kit cost something like a million US dollars.
The metal the models are made of is a more expensive material than plastic, but plastic has more of an up-front cost in terms of making the molds.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: That too. Remember if we go by every piece of lore, the Bell of Lost Heroes would be ringing faster than a bell could be physically rung due to the hilarious amounts of casualties, and it would still have a huge backlog to work through.
That's a math task for anyone willing to find out how much G-force would be applied to the person ringing the bell and the bell itself.
Lorewise the Bell doesn't get rung for everyone, it's for heroic last stands/significant individuals. I'm going to do some XKCD-style random guesswork for fun here.
The Warhammer wiki lists 205 distinct Imperial planets with their own pages, of which nine contain Space Marine Fortress-Monasteries. Since GW maintains that there are about a thousand Chapters in existence at any one time that's giving us about 23,000 distinct major planets. Guessing about 7 billion as an average population (the densely-populated hive worlds are balanced out by the sparsely-populated agri-worlds and feral worlds) that gives us a galactic population of around 1.6*10^14 humans.
Now assuming the standards of heroism for getting the Bell of Lost Souls rung at your death are on par with the standards the U.S. puts on getting the Congressional Medal of Honor (which has been awarded to 3,496 people over 153 years, for a rate of almost one person every two weeks), adjusting for population (going from an average population of about 165 million over the aforementioned 153 years to 1.6*10^14 people makes this approximate Imperium around a million times the size of the Imperium), we get roughly a million bell rings a fortnight.
Adjusting the units down that's only actually 49.6 rings a minute, just under one per second. Difficult if you want to be suitably large/dramatic about the bell ring, but building a bell to withstand that rate of ringing wouldn't actually be that difficult. A bigger problem is how Holy Terra can sleep with the giant-ass bell going off fifty rings a minute day and night, or what happens when it wears out and has to be replaced.
Actually we don't have to guess about galactic population too much. We have the range of population for a hive city, range of number of hive cities on a hive world, number of hive worlds in the Imperium, and the population range of a non-hive world, along with the total number of planets in the Imperium (one million).
Plugging in average numbers in all cases leads to a galactic population of over 20 quadrillion humans in the Imperium.
I think that, more likely than ringing the bell once a second, they'd further restrict the requirements for ringing it.
Resin and Metal molds are cheaper if you only plan on a limited casting run. Plastic Molds are much cheaper in the longrun if you plan on your kits lasting a few decade. Cut aluminium is expensive but it lasts far longer than the type of molds used for metal and resin, which can rapidly degrade if you push them too far. When tabletop gaming in general was still a niche hobby, a single mini will never see the demand that will require so many to be made nor a production run long enough for them to be viable after only a handful of years down the road. Thus the only reason to make stuff in plastic is when they're either too unfeasable for resin or metal (such as large vehicles that most players will buy more than one or two of) or stuff that will see multiple applications, like generic marine bodies that will have different accessories from different sets on them.
Now that 40k has moved onto massive armies and how models will be expected to hold for decades on end, Plastic models are far more practical than they use to be since you can expect the demand to be far higher than it would be practical for a single resin/metal mold to be able to produce.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Resin and Metal molds are cheaper if you only plan on a limited casting run. Plastic Molds are much cheaper in the longrun if you plan on your kits lasting a few decade. Cut aluminium is expensive but it lasts far longer than the type of molds used for metal and resin, which can rapidly degrade if you push them too far. When tabletop gaming in general was still a niche hobby, a single mini will never see the demand that will require so many to be made nor a production run long enough for them to be viable after only a handful of years down the road. Thus the only reason to make stuff in plastic is when they're either too unfeasable for resin or metal (such as large vehicles that most players will buy more than one or two of) or stuff that will see multiple applications, like generic marine bodies that will have different accessories from different sets on them.
Now that 40k has moved onto massive armies and how models will be expected to hold for decades on end, Plastic models are far more practical than they use to be since you can expect the demand to be far higher than it would be practical for a single resin/metal mold to be able to produce.
I...am not sad to have gotten into 40k when I did.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: That too. Remember if we go by every piece of lore, the Bell of Lost Heroes would be ringing faster than a bell could be physically rung due to the hilarious amounts of casualties, and it would still have a huge backlog to work through.
That's a math task for anyone willing to find out how much G-force would be applied to the person ringing the bell and the bell itself.
Lorewise the Bell doesn't get rung for everyone, it's for heroic last stands/significant individuals. I'm going to do some XKCD-style random guesswork for fun here.
The Warhammer wiki lists 205 distinct Imperial planets with their own pages, of which nine contain Space Marine Fortress-Monasteries. Since GW maintains that there are about a thousand Chapters in existence at any one time that's giving us about 23,000 distinct major planets. Guessing about 7 billion as an average population (the densely-populated hive worlds are balanced out by the sparsely-populated agri-worlds and feral worlds) that gives us a galactic population of around 1.6*10^14 humans.
Now assuming the standards of heroism for getting the Bell of Lost Souls rung at your death are on par with the standards the U.S. puts on getting the Congressional Medal of Honor (which has been awarded to 3,496 people over 153 years, for a rate of almost one person every two weeks), adjusting for population (going from an average population of about 165 million over the aforementioned 153 years to 1.6*10^14 people makes this approximate Imperium around a million times the size of the Imperium), we get roughly a million bell rings a fortnight.
Adjusting the units down that's only actually 49.6 rings a minute, just under one per second. Difficult if you want to be suitably large/dramatic about the bell ring, but building a bell to withstand that rate of ringing wouldn't actually be that difficult. A bigger problem is how Holy Terra can sleep with the giant-ass bell going off fifty rings a minute day and night, or what happens when it wears out and has to be replaced.
I would imagine that, due to the multiple galactic wars and whole societies based around war, to compare it to the Medal of Honor then it would not be how many people received it over the whole duration, but only during periods of intense war (so WW2, Vietnam War and Korean War periods). And considering the Imperium is far more suicidal than the US would be in terms of "Human Resources", I would multiply that by at least 2.
And those would just be for confirmed deaths. Ciaphas Cain was apparently deemed dead so many times that he was permanently put on the Imperial Payroll and never taken off because they simply did not want to deal with the paperwork. Assuming this he alone had the bell rang for him multiple times, and I wouldn't think this would be an isolated incident.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: That too. Remember if we go by every piece of lore, the Bell of Lost Heroes would be ringing faster than a bell could be physically rung due to the hilarious amounts of casualties, and it would still have a huge backlog to work through.
That's a math task for anyone willing to find out how much G-force would be applied to the person ringing the bell and the bell itself.
Lorewise the Bell doesn't get rung for everyone, it's for heroic last stands/significant individuals. I'm going to do some XKCD-style random guesswork for fun here.
The Warhammer wiki lists 205 distinct Imperial planets with their own pages, of which nine contain Space Marine Fortress-Monasteries. Since GW maintains that there are about a thousand Chapters in existence at any one time that's giving us about 23,000 distinct major planets. Guessing about 7 billion as an average population (the densely-populated hive worlds are balanced out by the sparsely-populated agri-worlds and feral worlds) that gives us a galactic population of around 1.6*10^14 humans.
Now assuming the standards of heroism for getting the Bell of Lost Souls rung at your death are on par with the standards the U.S. puts on getting the Congressional Medal of Honor (which has been awarded to 3,496 people over 153 years, for a rate of almost one person every two weeks), adjusting for population (going from an average population of about 165 million over the aforementioned 153 years to 1.6*10^14 people makes this approximate Imperium around a million times the size of the Imperium), we get roughly a million bell rings a fortnight.
Adjusting the units down that's only actually 49.6 rings a minute, just under one per second. Difficult if you want to be suitably large/dramatic about the bell ring, but building a bell to withstand that rate of ringing wouldn't actually be that difficult. A bigger problem is how Holy Terra can sleep with the giant-ass bell going off fifty rings a minute day and night, or what happens when it wears out and has to be replaced.
I would imagine that, due to the multiple galactic wars and whole societies based around war, to compare it to the Medal of Honor then it would not be how many people received it over the whole duration, but only during periods of intense war (so WW2, Vietnam War and Korean War periods). And considering the Imperium is far more suicidal than the US would be in terms of "Human Resources", I would multiply that by at least 2.
And those would just be for confirmed deaths. Ciaphas Cain was apparently deemed dead so many times that he was permanently put on the Imperial Payroll and never taken off because they simply did not want to deal with the paperwork. Assuming this he alone had the bell rang for him multiple times, and I wouldn't think this would be an isolated incident.
I went the opposite direction with the 'confirmed deaths' part, actually; the U.S. military keeps very precise track of all its troops, the Imperium is probably much more likely to not hear about/lose track of some fallen hero who deserved recognition than it is to list someone twice by accident.
Not to mention the Medal of Honour isn't always given posthumously, while ringing of the Bell is.
It also presumes that there's a set guideline for what would be considered a "heroic" deed.
Again going by fluff you'd think they'd ring the bell for every space marine that died regardless of reason, to say nothing of how the Ecclesiarchy will conflate what is a "heroic death" from a normal one.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: It also presumes that there's a set guideline for what would be considered a "heroic" deed.
Again going by fluff you'd think they'd ring the bell for every space marine that died regardless of reason, to say nothing of how the Ecclesiarchy will conflate what is a "heroic death" from a normal one.
That's why it's an approximation that could be quite a bit wrong either way.
How about don't be a dick? I actually use to have a sisters of battle army when dow came out and when I bought the models online they where witch hunters. They had a van helsing type model who was just amazing. He had a old fashion witch hunter hat long gun with a flame on it, and with the cannoness beside him was just amazing. Still sad I lost them during the move.
And on the troll part I pay little to no attention about people fighting about what plastic parts may be under a toys clothes, it is a plastic toy!!!!! I remember the witch hunters who where renamed sisters long ago. The witch hunters where amazing all around. coven of nuns who burnt everything to the ground a few priests in there aswell who also melted the world.
It was like a church lead army of perfection and beauty with the freaks flagellants and penitent engines with the organ tanks so pretty.
Best models ever
Oh I am editing like hell here but for me the reason the sisters of battle will never be as good as witch hunters
Lack a male lead
Before you start thinking SEXIST I have a more reasonable excuse.
1: Being a male I like things big mean scary. Like the inquistor I would kill for a male female 2 pack of that model.
2: Like most people even if I do it sub-consciously I tend to connect to a character and being the general I like the guy on the table who is the general be as much like me as possible. So being a male and favoring weapons I like is strongly needed, knowing their is a female above me who is actually in charge means little to nothing to me but being the general of this battle I want to be represented there. So a force of all females well I find appealing I do not feel as connected to it as I do with say ork who even tho are not human are all about brute force survival of the strongest ect ect.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Yeah but with everything 40k, you generally go for the higher estimate, then multiply it by 2 because, 40k.
Worth noting on this subject is that the Imperium is fragmented and most heroes die unsung and unknown.
They can only ring bells for deaths that they find out about. On a galactic scale, the criteria for 'hero' must also be considerable.
Plus, not every Marine death becomes known either. Some simply go MIA. and it would be embarassing to ring the bell for someone who is recovered later (outside of special cases like Lysander).
But that is off topic.
Replaying ME3 with my Femshep made me realise how cool women in sci-fi armour could be. :( #prayforsisters #yesallarmour
OgreChubbs wrote: 1: Being a male I like things big mean scary. Like the inquistor I would kill for a male female 2 pack of that model.
2: Like most people even if I do it sub-consciously I tend to connect to a character and being the general I like the guy on the table who is the general be as much like me as possible. So being a male and favoring weapons I like is strongly needed, knowing their is a female above me who is actually in charge means little to nothing to me but being the general of this battle I want to be represented there. So a force of all females well I find appealing I do not feel as connected to it as I do with say ork who even tho are not human are all about brute force survival of the strongest ect ect.
I'm a guy in real life, and I don't really have a problem playing female characters in... literally any game I play that gives me that option.
Maybe just being a guy doesn't automatically translate to needing a male character to be your avatar in a game?
Armored Samus Aran is not feminine at all. Unless you're talking Zero Suit. In which case, rock on!
But really, if we're going down this rabbit hole, I think that it's hard not to include Calhoun.
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Pouncey wrote: My MOST favorite is the Retributor with Heavy Bolter.
Well, that's a given for everybody...
I said power armor. And Samus Aran's power armor looks feminine enough to me.
Also Lt. Morales from Heroes of the Storm.
Bodysuits like Samus Aran's Zero-Suit... my enjoyment of them is more perverse than I typically like to indulge in in games, really. Luckily there's TONS of fan art on that subject for me to enjoy. : D
No comment on the others as they all have their own issues (though Pharah's are largely irrelevant due to the sheer variation of alternative choices), but Shepard is just golden. I completely agree with you there.
Spoiler:
Add all necessary bits as PA is both enclosed and powered (unlike Shepard's suit) and then add all the design gubbins, gothic design, fleur de lis, flowing cloth and whatever you like, and you got yourself something goooooooooooood.
Of course, I doubt you'll get a visor to match your theme, but if you could it would be an excellent excuse to go helmetless (certainly better than the 'morale' and 'inspiration' excuse the Marines cooked up. )
Why do they have to be hot? Anything resembling an equivalent (Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard) is a tiny niche that would not have been present at all had their main faction not been 50% of the 40k game.
Why do people get angry when I suggest that hotness is not a necessity? Sexual gratification is not even related to the decree passive at all!
Any arguments you make regarding 'they must have boobplate because decree passive' (an assumption that is headcanon itself) becomes even less convincing if you admit it is just because you want a titillating miniature.
If you are unconcerned with reasonable design and want a hot female soldier model, Prodos or whatever they are called might be your thing.
Ashiraya wrote: Why do they have to be hot? Anything resembling an equivalent (Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard) is a tiny niche that would not have been present at all had their main faction not been 50% of the 40k game.
Why do people get angry when I suggest that hotness is not a necessity? Sexual gratification is not even related to the decree passive at all!
Any arguments you make regarding 'they must have boobplate because decree passive' (an assumption that is headcanon itself) becomes even less convincing if you admit it is just because you want a titillating miniature.
Uhh... I'm pretty sure I listed three qualities there, and hotness was the least important to me. It appears to be REALLY important to YOU though.
You did not specify which one is least important to you.
In addition, it is fairly easy to find 'women in heavy-duty sci-fi armor' that are 'awesome' and 'epic', however, ones that are not designed to be sexually gratifying are in very short supply indeed. Placing more importance on that is therefore a natural consequence, and it has nothing to do with all these constant fairly unpleasant accusations I have received in this thread about 'obsession'.
Ashiraya wrote: You did not specify which one is least important to you.
Correct. You assumed the only thing I like about the Sororitas aesthetic is their physical attractiveness. You are, in fact. wrong about that. It's something I enjoy about their aesthetic, yes, but not the only thing I enjoy. I also believe that if the exaggerated feminine characteristics were reined in but they still were clearly women, I'd still find them hot.
Because I find Pharah hot, along with Lt. Morales. So no, boobplate is NOT a hotness requirements for me, only a feminine figure.
In addition, it is fairly easy to find 'women in heavy-duty sci-fi armor' that are 'awesome' and 'epic', however, ones that are not designed to be sexually gratifying are in very short supply indeed. Placing more importance on that is therefore a natural consequence, and it has nothing to do with all these constant fairly unpleasant accusations I have received in this thread about 'obsession'.
Well, you assumed it about someone who it was not true of. So yes, I'm going to take offense when you assume that just because I find their current aesthetic to be attractive means that's the only thing I like about their current aesthetic.
I'll agree that the armor doesn't need to be "sexy" for the model to look good or for it to be easily identifiable as a woman. Pharah from Overwatch is a good example of this, her armor looks great and isn't overly sexualized, yet she is easily identifiable as female. If Gee-dubs did something like that with plastic Sisters (with a few minor changes to suit the Sisters religious nature), they'd be well on their way to some epic models imo
War Kitten wrote: I'll agree that the armor doesn't need to be "sexy" for the model to look good or for it to be easily identifiable as a woman. Pharah from Overwatch is a good example of this, her armor looks great and isn't overly sexualized, yet she is easily identifiable as female. If Gee-dubs did something like that with plastic Sisters (with a few minor changes to suit the Sisters religious nature), they'd be well on their way to some epic models imo
Yay! Someone partly agreed with me! : D
Today I've been having trouble getting people on the same side as me in an argument to agree with me. They seemed to believe that even making a valid argument was unnecessary.
Pouncey wrote: Hey, regarding that fan math that resulted in there likely being 10 billion Sisters of Battle...
It's funny how these numbers go around and around.
Looking at the actual background rather than fanon a good estimate for the current number of Battle Sisters within the Major Orders is 20,000. Consider that when Thor founded them they numbered 4,000 and two and a half millennia later this number had grown to, perhaps, 30,000. Currently the number of Battle Sisters is said to be down with each Militant Order having, and I quote Codex: Sisters of Battle, "between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters". Further to this the original six Orders are described, in Codex: Witch Hunters, as, 'by far the most numerous' before you ask about how many Battle Sisters there might be within the 'unknown' number of Minor Orders. Generously then, there could be approximately 20,000 Battle Sisters within the Minor Orders making for a rough total of... 40,000 Battle Sisters.
Of course, there's no need to let those pesky numbers from the background get in the way of having millions or billions of Battle Sisters if that's what someone prefers to believe...
Pouncey wrote: Hey, regarding that fan math that resulted in there likely being 10 billion Sisters of Battle...
It's funny how these numbers go around and around.
Looking at the actual background rather than fanon a good estimate for the current number of Battle Sisters within the Major Orders is 20,000. Consider that when Thor founded them they numbered 4,000 and two and a half millennia later this number had grown to, perhaps, 30,000. Currently the number of Battle Sisters is said to be down with each Militant Order having, and I quote Codex: Sisters of Battle, "between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters". Further to this the original six Orders are described, in Codex: Witch Hunters, as, 'by far the most numerous' before you ask about how many Battle Sisters there might be within the 'unknown' number of Minor Orders. Generously then, there could be approximately 20,000 Battle Sisters within the Minor Orders making for a rough total of... 40,000 Battle Sisters.
Of course, there's no need to let those pesky numbers from the background get in the way of having millions or billions of Battle Sisters if that's what someone prefers to believe...
But if Space Marines outnumber Sisters of Battle 25:1, how can Imperial citizens find Sororitas a more common sight than Space Marines?
If you spread them out as thinly as possible, one per planet, only 4% of Imperial planets would even HAVE a Sister of Battle on them.
Gogsnik is cherry-picking in order to try to deflate the numbers as much as possible. The problem with his method is that GW has not been consistent about the number of Sisters at all-- hell, in fifth edition the rulebook actually had a typo where they said the Sisters only had three major orders, not six.
It's a valid point and there is an absolute contradiction within the background. If you went by what it said in descriptive terms, basically every noble house in the Imperium has a Sister Famulous spying over their shoulders and yet it's the Battle Sisters who are said to be the most recognisable, that doesn't add up.
Now come on Melissia, you know I'm not cherry picking those numbers. They are the numbers. It's not my fault they wrote the background like that. Right? Riiight? In all seriousness though, there isn't much to cherry pick from unfortunately, if only there was.
Incidentally I've been planning on making some Sisters of Battle and I have stupid amounts of pictures for inspiration but no boob plate, no high heels, but still, probably, recognisably feminine, that's the basic gist of what people would like to see on a model isn't it?
Pouncey wrote: Okay, so maybe some of the ones I like don't work for you guys.
Can we at least agree that women in heavy-duty sci-fi armor can be awesome, epic AND hot?
It's OK that you like them, but you said they were feminine, and that is what I objected to. Also, agree that "hot" is kinda irrelevant - I prefer "badass", but that's just me.
Anyhow, getting back to Lt. Morales...
If you didn't tell me that the wearer of that suit was a woman, I'd never have guessed it. The bulky body and broad shoulders are really proportioned more like the Hulk than Black Widow.
Pouncey wrote: Okay, so maybe some of the ones I like don't work for you guys.
Can we at least agree that women in heavy-duty sci-fi armor can be awesome, epic AND hot?
It's OK that you like them, but you said they were feminine, and that is what I objected to. Also, agree that "hot" is kinda irrelevant - I prefer "badass", but that's just me.
Anyhow, getting back to Lt. Morales...
If you didn't tell me that the wearer of that suit was a woman, I'd never have guessed it. The bulky body and broad shoulders are really proportioned more like the Hulk than Black Widow.
And the long, bulky codpiece? That's a penis.
Funny enough I assumed this person to be female on the first guess, but that's because Starcraft only had female avatars for their medics (Of any kind).
It's a valid point and there is an absolute contradiction within the background. If you went by what it said in descriptive terms, basically every noble house in the Imperium has a Sister Famulous spying over their shoulders and yet it's the Battle Sisters who are said to be the most recognisable, that doesn't add up.
I'll fully agree that it's a huge contradiction.
Space Marines are a rare enough sight as it is, yet they ask us to believe Imperial citizens would recognize Battle Sisters when they have 4% the numbers of all Space Marines combined?
Now come on Melissia, you know I'm not cherry picking those numbers. They are the numbers. It's not my fault they wrote the background like that. Right? Riiight? In all seriousness though, there isn't much to cherry pick from unfortunately, if only there was.
Incidentally I've been planning on making some Sisters of Battle and I have stupid amounts of pictures for inspiration but no boob plate, no high heels, but still, probably, recognisably feminine, that's the basic gist of what people would like to see on a model isn't it?
I say no to high heels entirely. Some of the art may have Battle Sisters in high heels, but NONE of the models do, and high heels are utter gak in combat and not good for anything Sororitas actually do.
Boob plate I'm indifferent about so long as we don't take the Diablo 3 route and make them like Johanna from Heroes of the Storm.
Because... well, YMMV, but her flat chestplate threw the gender recognition part of my brain for a loop for a while until I got used to it and saw her other feminine traits.
Personally though, in terms of my preference for the Sisters of Battle as a faction, I love female characters who look female, I love holy warriors wielding minor divine miracles as part of their arsenal, I love heavy plate armor, I love high-tech stuff, I love powerful guns, and I love ornate armor which looks kinda ceremonial. So long as the new models look good and meet those criteria, I really would be okay if the boobplate goes away, so long as the armored torso still somehow looks female.
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MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Funny enough I assumed this person to be female on the first guess, but that's because Starcraft only had female avatars for their medics (Of any kind).
I played a lot of Brood War, maybe that's why I peg her as a woman based on her armor's looks.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Funny enough I assumed this person to be female on the first guess, but that's because Starcraft only had female avatars for their medics (Of any kind).
I played a lot of Brood War, maybe that's why I peg her as a woman based on her armor's looks.
OK, so you guys knew that the character was female from playing the game. But take it out of the Starcraft Context and that's not nearly as reasonable of a conclusion.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Funny enough I assumed this person to be female on the first guess, but that's because Starcraft only had female avatars for their medics (Of any kind).
I played a lot of Brood War, maybe that's why I peg her as a woman based on her armor's looks.
OK, so you guys knew that the character was female from playing the game. But take it out of the Starcraft Context and that's not nearly as reasonable of a conclusion.
Most of the arguments on this forum would be rendered moot if we took a step back. But then this forum would probably not exist and it'd collapse in on itself like a negative space wedgie.
I'm really asking is Do you Want to create a fifth chaos god and open the eye of terror 28k years too early?
Personally I'm okay with there not being that many Sisters and it makes sense for quite a number of reasons. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day. The numbers don't agree with the descriptions and the descriptions are not shown as being the case outside of the Sister specific sources; yeah, they probably should and definitely could have had a Dialogous translating but what do we get instead? A servitor. There are a lot of servitors doing jobs that Sisters are said to do. It makes sense in-universe, real-world I guess generally the authors just, forget, that the option to have a Sister exists.
I say no to high heels entirely.
Boob plate I'm indifferent about...
...female characters who look female... ...heavy plate armor...
Yeah, I'm not too bothered about boob plate myself either but the more I see it the more it doesn't look good to me, especially when you see (a very well done I might add) Sisters of Battle cosplay: you've got an actual woman wearing a good rendition of SoB powered armour and the boob plate more often than not looks out of place. Besides, I have a specific piece of artwork that I intend to use for my own version of a Sister and there is no boob plate and it definitely doesn't have heels.
I also like great big chunky, heavy plate armour concepts but what I've been thinking is that, there should be a basic SoB suit of powered armour and then something bulkier. Something along the lines of real world exo suits, like a sort of Sisters version of a Centurion, but, you know, something that would actually look good (and realistic and practical)!!!
Backspacehacker wrote: Anyone else kinda wanna take a step back and realize that we are arguing over what fake plastic parts our toy soldiers have?
Sure.
I can also realize that I've spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours on those toy soldiers. I think at that point they can be a little bit important to me to the point where I can care what they look like.
Personally I'm okay with there not being that many Sisters and it makes sense for quite a number of reasons. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day. The numbers don't agree with the descriptions and the descriptions are not shown as being the case outside of the Sister specific sources; yeah, they probably should and definitely could have had a Dialogous translating but what do we get instead? A servitor. There are a lot of servitors doing jobs that Sisters are said to do. It makes sense in-universe, real-world I guess generally the authors just, forget, that the option to have a Sister exists.
I say no to high heels entirely.
Boob plate I'm indifferent about...
...female characters who look female... ...heavy plate armor...
Yeah, I'm not too bothered about boob plate myself either but the more I see it the more it doesn't look good to me, especially when you see (a very well done I might add) Sisters of Battle cosplay: you've got an actual woman wearing a good rendition of SoB powered armour and the boob plate more often than not looks out of place. Besides, I have a specific piece of artwork that I intend to use for my own version of a Sister and there is no boob plate and it definitely doesn't have heels.
I also like great big chunky, heavy plate armour concepts but what I've been thinking is that, there should be a basic SoB suit of powered armour and then something bulkier. Something along the lines of real world exo suits, like a sort of Sisters version of a Centurion, but, you know, something that would actually look good (and realistic and practical)!!!
Centurion was the first place you went for a Space Marine analog? Not Terminators?
Pouncey wrote: Centurion was the first place you went for a Space Marine analog? Not Terminators?
Ha! Indeed. Only in so far as a Centurion if about as close as 40K gets to current exo-suits, I wasn't making a Space Marine comparison though. In background terms, I don't see Sisters getting terminator armour plus, I'd rather make something different and something that can look more low tech and yet baroque.
Pouncey wrote: Centurion was the first place you went for a Space Marine analog? Not Terminators?
Ha! Indeed. Only in so far as a Centurion if about as close as 40K gets to current exo-suits, I wasn't making a Space Marine comparison though. In background terms, I don't see Sisters getting terminator armour plus, I'd rather make something different and something that can look more low tech and yet baroque.
I was thinking more in terms of role.
Heavier duty power armor that's more resilient and has better support for heavy weapons than their standard power armor does, used in cases where the fighting is thickest.
Though I'll admit I don't want to turn Sororitas into Marines Lite, so I'd be happy without a Terminator analog too.
Could just have Sororitas use a unique version of Artificer armor for those roles, too. Just really, REALLY high-quality power armor that looks super-ornate compared to the standard stuff.
Also, isn't power armor essentially what you end up with when you create an exo-suit strong enough to mount an amount of armor onto it that lets you make a fully-armored soldier who still has the mobility to fight a battle?
Backspacehacker wrote: Anyone else kinda wanna take a step back and realize that we are arguing over what fake plastic parts our toy soldiers have?
Sure.
I can also realize that I've spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours on those toy soldiers. I think at that point they can be a little bit important to me to the point where I can care what they look like.
And nothing is stopping you from making them how ever you want
I know, but not quite so big as that. I've been thinking in terms of an augmentation for a sister (like a Centurion) but not an actual warmachine per se if that makes sense.
OgreChubbs wrote: 1: Being a male I like things big mean scary. Like the inquistor I would kill for a male female 2 pack of that model.
2: Like most people even if I do it sub-consciously I tend to connect to a character and being the general I like the guy on the table who is the general be as much like me as possible. So being a male and favoring weapons I like is strongly needed, knowing their is a female above me who is actually in charge means little to nothing to me but being the general of this battle I want to be represented there. So a force of all females well I find appealing I do not feel as connected to it as I do with say ork who even tho are not human are all about brute force survival of the strongest ect ect.
I'm a guy in real life, and I don't really have a problem playing female characters in... literally any game I play that gives me that option.
Maybe just being a guy doesn't automatically translate to needing a male character to be your avatar in a game?
I ment more along the lines of what I liked about them and need to pick a army. Some people not so much because they are over lord and all their units are their men. For me it is more of a who best represents me or my ideas. When they dropped the witch hunter model I lost alot of love. But thats why I love iron jawz and beastmen I love animals and every game that gives you a pet thats my guy right there man woman child ect if it has a pet it has my heart lol.
Oh btw not sure if you knew this but the model may have been from necromunda or what ever but at the time of witch hunters he was in the HQ section with the other 3 ladies I showed. He also could take a retune and was in the witch hunter codex I am holding
Gogsnik wrote: I know, but not quite so big as that. I've been thinking in terms of an augmentation for a sister (like a Centurion) but not an actual warmachine per se if that makes sense.
I really hope they don't go that direction. Sisters right now are close enough in organization to Marines as-is. I'd like to see them take it in a completely different direction than try to make "Terminator Sisters". I like the idea of the repentia as the sister's answer to heavy armor, they just need to make repentia viable (maybe 4+ FnP, run and charge, and once-per-game fight at Initiative?)
Gogsnik wrote: I know, but not quite so big as that. I've been thinking in terms of an augmentation for a sister (like a Centurion) but not an actual warmachine per se if that makes sense.
The power loader in Aliens was for moving heavy cargo around.
Not exactly a battlefield role.
And the tabletop game and all of its models are about the battlefield, not the 40k universe in general.
What would you use the power loader for in combat? Ripley used it for its physical strength in a melee fight against the Xenomorph, but the Sororitas have power weapons and chainswords they'd use instead when it comes down to a melee fight. Power weapons don't need much strength to cut through something - the disruptive energy field does most of the work. Chainswords are designed to be held against the foe, not really swung around a lot as a slashing weapon, so a Sororitas has the strength they'd need for that.
OgreChubbs wrote: 1: Being a male I like things big mean scary. Like the inquistor I would kill for a male female 2 pack of that model.
2: Like most people even if I do it sub-consciously I tend to connect to a character and being the general I like the guy on the table who is the general be as much like me as possible. So being a male and favoring weapons I like is strongly needed, knowing their is a female above me who is actually in charge means little to nothing to me but being the general of this battle I want to be represented there. So a force of all females well I find appealing I do not feel as connected to it as I do with say ork who even tho are not human are all about brute force survival of the strongest ect ect.
I'm a guy in real life, and I don't really have a problem playing female characters in... literally any game I play that gives me that option.
Maybe just being a guy doesn't automatically translate to needing a male character to be your avatar in a game?
I ment more along the lines of what I liked about them and need to pick a army. Some people not so much because they are over lord and all their units are their men. For me it is more of a who best represents me or my ideas. When they dropped the witch hunter model I lost alot of love. But thats why I love iron jawz and beastmen I love animals and every game that gives you a pet thats my guy right there man woman child ect if it has a pet it has my heart lol.
Oh btw not sure if you knew this but the model may have been from necromunda or what ever but at the time of witch hunters he was in the HQ section with the other 3 ladies I showed. He also could take a retune and was in the witch hunter codex I am holding
Just buy the Inquisition Codex and use one of their detachments. They still have the Ordo Hereticus stuff.
I think you can take a male Ecclesiarchy special character as your HQ choice in the Sororitas dex, so you don't need a Canoness or Celestine.
Correct. You assumed the only thing I like about the Sororitas aesthetic is their physical attractiveness. You are, in fact. wrong about that.
Your fervent defense of the armour design, plus the fact that out of your reasons given only hotness was relevant to that design element at all.
I will not accuse you of obsession - I find there has been enough mud-slinging of the type - but if you are saying a design element is not important to you, proceeding to shoot down any suggestion omitting that element like a Zoanthrope in an orphanage is... Odd.
Well, you assumed it about someone who it was not true of. So yes, I'm going to take offense when you assume that just because I find their current aesthetic to be attractive means that's the only thing I like about their current aesthetic.
If you place enough emphasis on it in practice, the distinction eventually ceases to matter.
Correct. You assumed the only thing I like about the Sororitas aesthetic is their physical attractiveness. You are, in fact. wrong about that.
Your fervent defense of the armour design, plus the fact that out of your reasons given only hotness was relevant to that design element at all.
I will not accuse you of obsession - I find there has been enough mud-slinging of the type - but if you are saying a design element is not important to you, proceeding to shoot down any suggestion omitting that element like a Zoanthrope in an orphanage is... Odd.
Well, you assumed it about someone who it was not true of. So yes, I'm going to take offense when you assume that just because I find their current aesthetic to be attractive means that's the only thing I like about their current aesthetic.
If you place enough emphasis on it in practice, the distinction eventually ceases to matter.
Are you confusing me for other people?
I mean, yes, I have tried to justify how it would make sense in the game's lore, but that's not really an unusual thing for me to do in general when it comes to something bizarre.
Also, I'm pretty sure one of my recent posts in this thread has said that as far as I'm concerned, the boobplate can stay or go so long as the overall shape of the new armor style is distinctly female.
Also the post you're talking about, where I reference three aesthetic qualities I wanted to see, wasn't about the boobplate in particular. I was talking about the entire model.
I hope it's not too late to jump in and re-visit these points.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I should point out that Potential Sisters recruits are taken from the Schola Progenium, which manages the Imperium's orphans.
Given just how much war happens in the imperium, there are a lot of orphans out there.
If I remember correctly; the Schola only take orphans of 'Imperial Adepts', Adepts being those individuals who are part of one of the large-interplanetary organisation that make up the core of the Imperium's institutions (Administratum, Naval Officers, Arbites, etc*). Typical imperial serf/factory worker/grox herder's child is not going to get in (under normal circumstances). So, not nearly as large a recruitment pool.
Pouncey wrote: A mold for a plastic sprue has to be made of very carefully cut aluminum. I've heard that the molds for a plastic model kit cost something like a million US dollars.
The metal the models are made of is a more expensive material than plastic, but plastic has more of an up-front cost in terms of making the molds.
Pouncey has it broadly right, though the costs for a mould run in the thousands-to-tens-of-thousands rather than the millions (thankfully). The original Bones KS was run to create a bunch of those type of metal moulds, and their inital goal was only $30 000.
Gogsnik wrote: Yeah, I'm not too bothered about boob plate myself either but the more I see it the more it doesn't look good to me, especially when you see (a very well done I might add) Sisters of Battle cosplay: you've got an actual woman wearing a good rendition of SoB powered armour and the boob plate more often than not looks out of place. Besides, I have a specific piece of artwork that I intend to use for my own version of a Sister and there is no boob plate and it definitely doesn't have heels.
I also like great big chunky, heavy plate armour concepts but what I've been thinking is that, there should be a basic SoB suit of powered armour and then something bulkier. Something along the lines of real world exo suits, like a sort of Sisters version of a Centurion, but, you know, something that would actually look good (and realistic and practical)!!!
I've dabbled in sculpting Sister-style armour myself, (though I kept the Boob-Plate) and I'd love to see what you come up with.
Also, as to the original topic: I could not be more in-favour of plastic sisters. Hell, I have a Living Saint conversion I've been planing for years that's dependant on at least Fine-cast Seraphim.
Pouncey wrote: A mold for a plastic sprue has to be made of very carefully cut aluminum. I've heard that the molds for a plastic model kit cost something like a million US dollars.
The metal the models are made of is a more expensive material than plastic, but plastic has more of an up-front cost in terms of making the molds.
Pouncey has it broadly right, though the costs for a mould run in the thousands-to-tens-of-thousands rather than the millions (thankfully). The original Bones KS was run to create a bunch of those type of metal moulds, and their inital goal was only $30 000.
I'll admit I always wondered how GW could afford as many moulds as they do when their entire... amount of money spent in a year... was around 100 million.
Manchu wrote: The main reason that Sisters "existing" is a good thing is that it means there is still a possibility of Sisters getting revamped.
Chaos dwarfs went through a long period of non-existence before being added as an artillery unit to Chaos Warriors, and then having a small army list / model range done by Forgeworld to represent one city of the Chaos Dwarfs.
Perhaps existing actually gets in the way of a Forgeworld redo?
Also, I'm pretty sure one of my recent posts in this thread has said that as far as I'm concerned, the boobplate can stay or go so long as the overall shape of the new armor style is distinctly female.
Also the post you're talking about, where I reference three aesthetic qualities I wanted to see, wasn't about the boobplate in particular. I was talking about the entire model.
I am willing to agree to disagree, but it seems I need to clarify first.
My problem is not only the breastplate. My problem is that 'distinctively female' often means 'absurdly thin armour' which, yes, SoB have too (see legs for instance).
Subtlety and moderation are underrated. I am not saying SoB should look like this.
Pouncey wrote: Can we at least agree that women in heavy-duty sci-fi armor can be awesome, epic AND hot?
If you are saying that you find women like, say, Kia from the Saints Row series hot, yeah, we totally can.
Kia :
If you are trying to say that making them look hot should be a design goal when designing those women's armor, then we are going to disagree a lot.
I think I miscommunicated a lot.
Let me clarify that I find Pharah in Overwatch, fully armored in her standard armor, to be an example of heavy plate armor on a woman being awesome, epic, and hot.
Essentially by "hot" I just mean that the fully-armored women have an overall shape that looks much like an adult woman. And that is ALL I mean by it. I don't mean boobplate, or high heels, or ridiculously exaggerated or anything else. Just that the female character still has a female shape when wearing her armor.
Because, I mean, the adult female form is something I find hot to begin with...
I don't. I mean, both armor seems pretty equivalent with the first one being slightly thicker, and if anything I'd rather have SoB armor at least as thick as the second one. And on my favorite artworks, it's usually thicker than that :
Pouncey wrote: Essentially by "hot" I just mean that the fully-armored women have an overall shape that looks much like an adult woman.
Would that include Kia's armor above?
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Ashiraya wrote: You often link that picture but it is pretty hard to tell on it because the HB is in the way!
True, but the way the head looks completely encased in armor makes the armor look really thick imo. Several centimeter thick at least. Something that no human could ever move in if it wasn't powered.
Ashiraya wrote: You often link that picture but it is pretty hard to tell on it because the HB is in the way!
The only part of her armour I can really see past the heavy bolter is the thigh and it looks pretty skinny, the rest of it's hard to tell. The shoulders look high because of the low angle but not necessarily "thick".
Yeah, Saints Row has great stuff in it, and very terrible stuff too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ahah I just noticed that because of her shoulder pad, she can only use one eye to see where she is firing! Well, 40k never was high on realism anyway ^^.
Ashiraya - completely agreed. It doesn't need to be figure hugging, doesn't need to accent curves, and needs to function first and foremost as intimidating armour.
Making it look feminine isn't a main concern, as long as I can tell a Sister is in it.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: The only part of her armour I can really see past the heavy bolter is the thigh and it looks pretty skinny
I made picture highlighting the thigh, because I like making pictures ^^.
Spoiler:
Those highlight what are imo two different ways to read the image. The first one make it look skinny, yeah. The second one, where the darker part just below the sculpted stuff is also part of the leg, makes it look quite big imo.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ashiraya - completely agreed. It doesn't need to be figure hugging, doesn't need to accent curves, and needs to function first and foremost as intimidating armour.
Making it look feminine isn't a main concern, as long as I can tell a Sister is in it.
Well, yeah...
But, I mean, if I just want semi-functional power armor I could buy plastic Space Marines, paint them with a fleur de lis on the shoulder and call them Battle Sisters and then use Sisters of Battle rules for them.
Part of the reason I like Sisters of Battle is that they are in fact women, and I like being able to tell that my female characters are in fact female just by looking at them. And, to me at least, that kinda necessitates the power armor having a feminine shape.
From what I saw, I'd say no. Could just be me though.
Personally, I'd be fine if they did for Sisters of Battle, what they did for Grey Knights, and basically just translated the existing look into plastic models. Actually I'd prefer that, since I like their current look.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: The only part of her armour I can really see past the heavy bolter is the thigh and it looks pretty skinny
I made picture highlighting the thigh, because I like making pictures ^^.
Spoiler:
Those highlight what are imo two different ways to read the image. The first one make it look skinny, yeah. The second one, where the darker part just below the sculpted stuff is also part of the leg, makes it look quite big imo.
The dark part still wasn't very visible on the second image so I highlighted it.
40K is not burdened by realistic armor concerns. Having females in power armor that doesn't let know they are female is missing the point of having females in power armor. You might as well just use Adeptus Astartes.
Not gonna read the entire thread, as the last few posts seem to be the endless "boob armor" debate. My $0.02 US is that as long as every upgrade option is included, and every squad version is represented, as well as plastic versions of all vehicles, I'd immediately get a Sisters army. My eternal hatred for pewter is the only reason I didn't start a SOB army back in 3rd/4th when I had almost every army. The only reason I DID get an all pewter LOD army is to curb stomp the local Timmy. Past that, I build every army now around not touching pewter or Finecast if I can help it.
adamsouza wrote: Having females in power armor that doesn't let know they are female is missing the point of having females in power armor. You might as well just use Adeptus Astartes
Having males in power armour that doesn't explicitly let know they are male is missing the point of having males in power armour.
Astartes armour is so bulky ANY gender of genetically engineered super soldier could be inside it, so if we want the models to be male, the armour should have prominent penises on it, or bare sections where their big manly shoulder muscles are. Maybe prominent Adams Apple armour?
If you can't tell the model is male from a distance, there's no point having any men in the game at all.
adamsouza wrote: Having females in power armor that doesn't let know they are female is missing the point of having females in power armor. You might as well just use Adeptus Astartes
Having males in power armour that doesn't explicitly let know they are male is missing the point of having males in power armour.
Astartes armour is so bulky ANY gender of genetically engineered super soldier could be inside it, so if we want the models to be male, the armour should have prominent penises on it, or bare sections where their big manly shoulder muscles are. Maybe prominent Adams Apple armour?
If you can't tell the model is male from a distance, there's no point having any men in the game at all.
Or we could just let the Astartes keep their aesthetic, the Sororitas keep their aesthetic, and not change either one?
adamsouza wrote: Having females in power armor that doesn't let know they are female is missing the point of having females in power armor. You might as well just use Adeptus Astartes
Having males in power armour that doesn't explicitly let know they are male is missing the point of having males in power armour.
Astartes armour is so bulky ANY gender of genetically engineered super soldier could be inside it, so if we want the models to be male, the armour should have prominent penises on it, or bare sections where their big manly shoulder muscles are. Maybe prominent Adams Apple armour?
If you can't tell the model is male from a distance, there's no point having any men in the game at all.
Or we could just let the Astartes keep their aesthetic, the Sororitas keep their aesthetic, and not change either one?
Nothing you posted either refuted or added to what you quoted. Did you intend to quote someone else?
I'm gonna assume you mean me.
I asked for a miniature. Not a video game character.
For an example of the difference, this is an Eldar Striking Scorpion miniature:
Spoiler:
And this is an Eldar Striking Scorpion video game character from Eternal Crusade:
Spoiler:
You may notice the large differences between the two.
This arguably helps my point, though I weren't trying to address you (a good rule of thumb is that when someone posts a reply without quotes, they are likely replying to the last poster). The EC model is of considerably lower quality than the GW model!
Now, this is not a good example because Eternal Crusade uses character models that would look dated ten years ago but, my point stands.
There are not many good miniatures for me to use as an example, which in itself is evidence of just how underdeveloped this niche is, unlike cheesecake which is a dime a dozen.
Or we could just let the Astartes keep their aesthetic, the Sororitas keep their aesthetic, and not change either one?
I like that idea, personally.
Were you a Dark Eldar player, I assume you would have cursed the name of their 5th ed revamp as well, as it completely overhauled the faction?
That this 'change is inherently bad' idea is so rampant is really concerning! And yes, they were very much revamped, not just updated - compare the old and new Grotesques and Talos, for instance.
Ashiraya wrote: Were you a Dark Eldar player, I assume you would have cursed the name of their 5th ed revamp as well, as it completely overhauled the faction?
That this 'change is inherently bad' idea is so rampant is really concerning! And yes, they were very much revamped, not just updated - compare the old and new Grotesques and Talos, for instance.
I wasn't, but I generally viewed the 5th edition revamp of Dark Eldar as an improvement since the old models were simply badly sculpted.
The Sisters of Battle models still look good, their sculpts have aged very, very well. There's no need to change the aesthetic because it still looks good.
Pouncey wrote: I wasn't, but I generally viewed the 5th edition revamp of Dark Eldar as an improvement since the old models were simply badly sculpted.
I consider the situation being discussed here as essentially identical.
Compare the old Talos and the new - both look like terrifying murder-machines to be sure, despite sharing few other similarities (though I agree the new design to be vastly superior). You can maintain the concepts of a faction while still overhauling and modernising its design.
I do not believe that latching onto the status quo like a drowning sailor to a lifeboat is what is best for the faction.
Pouncey wrote: I wasn't, but I generally viewed the 5th edition revamp of Dark Eldar as an improvement since the old models were simply badly sculpted.
I consider the situation being discussed here as essentially identical.
Compare the old Talos and the new - both look like terrifying murder-machines to be sure, despite sharing few other similarities (though I agree the new design to be vastly superior). You can maintain the concepts of a faction while still overhauling and modernising its design.
I do not believe that latching onto the status quo like a drowning sailor to a lifeboat is what is best for the faction.
Given the kinds of examples people have been tossing out, the changes they're proposing seem drastically huge. Many of the examples people are showing of how they think Sororitas should look aren't even wearing power armor! Some have shaved heads, some have bodies that I can't even tell are female!
So, yes, I get friggin panicky when people seem to be proposing entirely destroying the entire Sororitas aesthetic and creating something they personally prefer in its place.
If you want to say that the boobplate should be made less ridiculous, yes, I agree, that's fine. If you want to keep high heels off the models, I totally agree.
Just... it seems people want to go way, WAY beyond simply modernizing the existing aesthetic and more into the realm of creating something I couldn't even tell was a Sister of Battle!
Pouncey wrote: So, yes, I get friggin panicky when people seem to be proposing entirely destroying the entire Sororitas aesthetic and creating something they personally prefer in its place.
There is no need to panic. Whether they are updated or not, neither you, me, or anyone else in this thread can decide. All we can do is watch, wait and hope for our respective ideal outcomes.
Just... it seems people want to go way, WAY beyond simply modernizing the existing aesthetic and more into the realm of creating something I couldn't even tell was a Sister of Battle!
I only speak for myself here, of course, but I personally have only posted examples to compare certain design aspects of them to what I think would be ideal. I would not want a Sister of Battle who looks exactly like Commander Shepard, for example.
The gothic design, half-robe PA, the extremely awesome helmet design, the Godwyn-de'az bolter, the list goes on and on - I think SoB should keep most of what they have. If we keep realism out of the context, I just want armour that makes them look professional, rather than armour that makes them look foolish or worse.
adamsouza wrote: Having females in power armor that doesn't let know they are female is missing the point of having females in power armor. You might as well just use Adeptus Astartes
Having males in power armour that doesn't explicitly let know they are male is missing the point of having males in power armour.
Astartes armour is so bulky ANY gender of genetically engineered super soldier could be inside it, so if we want the models to be male, the armour should have prominent penises on it, or bare sections where their big manly shoulder muscles are. Maybe prominent Adams Apple armour?
If you can't tell the model is male from a distance, there's no point having any men in the game at all.
Your response is not nearly as clever as you think it is. Especially when you omitted the picture I included of a female is Astartes Armor.
If YOU want genderless armor you already have that option, by using Astartes Armor.
Some of us like the Sororitas the way they are.
Pouncey wrote: So, yes, I get friggin panicky when people seem to be proposing entirely destroying the entire Sororitas aesthetic and creating something they personally prefer in its place.
There is no need to panic. Whether they are updated or not, neither you, me, or anyone else in this thread can decide. All we can do is watch, wait and hope for our respective ideal outcomes.
Just... it seems people want to go way, WAY beyond simply modernizing the existing aesthetic and more into the realm of creating something I couldn't even tell was a Sister of Battle!
I only speak for myself here, of course, but I personally have only posted examples to compare certain design aspects of them to what I think would be ideal. I would not want a Sister of Battle who looks exactly like Commander Shepard, for example.
The gothic design, half-robe PA, the extremely awesome helmet design, the Godwyn-de'az bolter, the list goes on and on - I think SoB should keep most of what they have. If we keep realism out of the context, I just want armour that makes them look professional, rather than armour that makes them look foolish or worse.
I'm all for modernizing their armor so long as it keeps the aesthetic.
It's just, when you say, "Hey, what if we make them look kinda like this..." and then you link me to a picture of someone who doesn't look at all like a Sororitas, I'm actually incapable of imagining the things you're mentally adding onto whatever you're showing me, because all I see is someone who does not look like a Sister of Battle whatsoever and you just told me you think Sororitas would look better like that. Whatever specific traits you're trying to make me imagine on the current Sororitas armor aren't really what I'm imagining, instead I view it as, "Take Sororitas and make them look like THIS."
I think maybe if any of us had any art skill with a pencil and paper or computer drawing program, it might help my understanding to take a template of what a Sororitas looks like (for simplicity's sake, maybe the crappy art used solely to show color schemes), modify it with the changes you'd like to see to the current aesthetic, so that I'm being shown exactly what you're talking about instead of having to try to match up my imagination with yours.
Pouncey wrote: The power loader in Aliens was for moving heavy cargo around.
I didn't mean a literal analogue. Anyway, it doesn't matter.
Pendix wrote: I've dabbled in sculpting Sister-style armour myself, (though I kept the Boob-Plate) and I'd love to see what you come up with.
The image that I hope to use a basis for my own Sisters of Battle is this one:
Spoiler:
What I hope to achieve with the model/s is something that retains much of a Sister of Battle's style, as with that picture, but I also think that a form fitting armour, for me anyway, seems more advanced and the armour plate doesn't need to be hugely thick because the materials used offer a lot of protection even when relatively thin. It's like the bonding studs used on Space Marine Power Armour, they did that because the materials used were inferior to the ones the armour was supposed to use, the bonding studs beefed it up a bit and added protection. That's one of the reasons why I'm okay with there only being tens of thousands of Battle Sisters, I just don't buy the idea that they would be able to have access to, if it's even possible for the Mechanicus to achieve anyway, millions or more absurdly, billions of suits of powered armour, but I digress.
I've always been somewhat confused by just how that, thing works, although it does make her look pretty bad ass. Needless to say, I've seen lots of images of Sisters with all sorts of hairstyles, and to me, they all work, so I'd like to try having a go at that since there aren't that many female heads for models around and I've never tried sculpting one. I do like that servo head gadget though and the fact she's bald, it just looks very interesting to me as a design and style.
Gogsnik wrote: What I hope to achieve with the model/s is something that retains much of a Sister of Battle's style, as with that picture, but I also think that a form fitting armour, for me anyway, seems more advanced and the armour plate doesn't need to be hugely thick because the materials used offer a lot of protection even when relatively thin. It's like the bonding studs used on Space Marine Power Armour, they did that because the materials used were inferior to the ones the armour was supposed to use, the bonding studs beefed it up a bit and added protection. That's one of the reasons why I'm okay with there only being tens of thousands of Battle Sisters, I just don't buy the idea that they would be able to have access to, if it's even possible for the Mechanicus to achieve anyway, millions or more absurdly, billions of suits of powered armour, but I digress.
EDIT: Spelling
Personally I think you failed utterly at retaining anything at all of their current aesthetic.
I think the only thing you actually kept are the Inquisition and Imperial insignia.
If this is what you guys who hate the current aesthetic think of as "modernizing" or "improving" their current look, then feth that idea entirely. Just keep their current aesthetic entirely. Not a single change, because you obviously don't actually like anything about how they currently look. [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]
adamsouza wrote: Your response is not nearly as clever as you think it is.
It's actually likely even cleverer than he thought.
And if you think that Sisters in an armor that doesn't show their gender is the same as Sisters in Astartes armor, see the difference I mention just below.
Ashiraya wrote: If we keep realism out of the context, I just want armour that makes them look professional, rather than armour that makes them look foolish or worse.
I definitely disagree here. Just like the exorcist doesn't look like something professional and utilitarian, neither should the Sisters' armor. That's part of what sets them apart from marines. Marines look utilitarian, at least to a much higher degree than Sisters of Battle. Sisters of Battle are mad baroque creation of incredibly wealthy religious nutcase, and they should look the part, i.e. their armor should look more like ostentatious display of obscene wealth than sensible armor made by people who care about efficiency.
Personally I think you failed utterly at retaining anything at all of their current aesthetic.
I think the only thing you actually kept are the Inquisition and Imperial insignia.
You realise that isn't my own personal artwork yes? And I did say "use as a basis", again it's not a literal copy.
As it goes though, what other elements that GW have on their Sisters, that are not present in that image, makes you see that image as an utter failure? It doesn't have the boob plate, which I don't intend to use anyway, but it does have the shoulder pads, sleeves and loincloth-thing. Apart from the hairstyle and/or Sabbat helm and an obvious Fluer de Lys, what other design elements are missing?
Pouncey wrote: I think the only thing you actually kept are the Inquisition and Imperial insignia.
And the backpack, the tabard, the sleeves, the shoulder pad, …
Definitely a reinterpretation that manage to be very close to the original yet really distinct.
That's a violation of rule #1 and you should apologize right now. Insulting people because they happen to have put a lot of thought and effort into redesigning an armor and you don't like the result is way out of the line. Especially when this redesign is just a fan's work and will not lead to any change in anything from GW ever.
Personally I think you failed utterly at retaining anything at all of their current aesthetic.
I think the only thing you actually kept are the Inquisition and Imperial insignia.
You realise that isn't my own personal artwork yes? And I did say "use as a basis", again it's not a literal copy.
As it goes though, what other elements that GW have on their Sisters, that are not present in that image, makes you see that image as an utter failure? It doesn't have the boob plate, which I don't intend to use anyway, but it does have the shoulder pads, sleeves and loincloth-thing. Apart from the hairstyle and/or Sabbat helm and an obvious Fluer de Lys, what other design elements are missing?
This art has skull motifs everywhere, all over the armor. The Sororitas herself is bald and she has a fethed up mechanism around the back half of her head linking her to her armor. The boob plate is gone entirely instead of just reduced. The armor has tons and tons, and fething TONS of finnicky details everywhere instead of being smooth and streamlined. The spikes on the backpack are curved and their placement is messed up and they're diagonal. The shape of the shoulder pauldrons is completely different. SKULLS. FETHING. EVERYWHERE. Her armor doesn't look feminine whatsoever. Spikes on the toes of the boots. DID I MENTION ALL THE SKULLS EVERYWHERE? And when I look at her, I'm even assuming it's a her, I don't see a Sister of Battle, I see something grotesque that makes me want to vomit in rage.
That's a violation of rule #1 and you should apologize right now. Insulting people because they happen to have put a lot of thought and effort into redesigning an armor and you don't like the result is way out of the line. Especially when this redesign is just a fan's work and will not lead to any change in anything from GW ever.
NO!
When you tell me, "I want to keep their current aesthetic!" and try to get me on board with changing their aesthetic, then show me something completely different from their current aesthetic, I'm going to get really, really pissed and feel fully justified in expressing anger! BECAUSE YOU JUST FLAT-OUT LIED TO ME!
Pouncey wrote: If this is what you guys who hate the current aesthetic think of as "modernizing" or "improving" their current look, then feth that idea entirely. Just keep their current aesthetic entirely. Not a single change, because you obviously don't actually like anything about how they currently look. [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]
Ouch, well that's me told!!!
And for the record, just in case anyone is in doubt, I do not hate the SoB aesthetic, I wouldn't want to make models of them at all if I did. Oh well, you can't appeal to everyone.
Gogsnik, your drawing talents are really impressive and that's a really really interesting redesign!
I'm not quite convinced by the bolter though. But an spectacularly great piece!
This art has skull motifs everywhere, all over the armor. The Sororitas herself is bald and she has a fethed up mechanism around the back half of her head linking her to her armor. The boob plate is gone entirely instead of just reduced. The armor has tons and tons, and fething TONS of finnicky details everywhere instead of being smooth and streamlined. The spikes on the backpack are curved and their placement is messed up and they're diagonal. The shape of the shoulder pauldrons is completely different. SKULLS. FETHING. EVERYWHERE. Her armor doesn't look feminine whatsoever. Spikes on the toes of the boots. DID I MENTION ALL THE SKULLS EVERYWHERE? And when I look at her, I'm even assuming it's a her, I don't see a Sister of Battle, I see something grotesque that makes me want to vomit in rage.
Hm, interesting analysis. Certainly something I'll bear in mind in my own models, which will not be a literal copy of this image as I have already stated.
Note to self: less skulls. No curvy spikes...
EDIT - Not my drawing, just to throw that out there again. It's by Rayph on DeviantArt.
I really like that redesign of the Sororitas power armor. It looks baroque and gothic as hell without having goofy boob armor. But I would prefer a helmet over that... Frankly bizarre headgear.
Pouncey wrote: I see something grotesque that makes me want to vomit in rage.
[…]
I'm going to get really, really pissed and feel fully justified in expressing anger! BECAUSE YOU JUST FLAT-OUT LIED TO ME!
Seriously, you need to take a break and do anything that will get you to see this situation with some distance. Because you are over-reacting to something incredibly minor that won't have any effect on any aspect of your life if you don't let it, in a huge way. Maybe take a good cold shower? Go out take a walk/capture Pokemon(Is there still a difference these days ^^), anything!
Pouncey wrote: If this is what you guys who hate the current aesthetic think of as "modernizing" or "improving" their current look, then feth that idea entirely. Just keep their current aesthetic entirely. Not a single change, because you obviously don't actually like anything about how they currently look. [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]
Pouncey wrote: The power loader in Aliens was for moving heavy cargo around.
I didn't mean a literal analogue. Anyway, it doesn't matter.
Pendix wrote: I've dabbled in sculpting Sister-style armour myself, (though I kept the Boob-Plate) and I'd love to see what you come up with.
The image that I hope to use a basis for my own Sisters of Battle is this one:
Spoiler:
What I hope to achieve with the model/s is something that retains much of a Sister of Battle's style, as with that picture, but I also think that a form fitting armour, for me anyway, seems more advanced and the armour plate doesn't need to be hugely thick because the materials used offer a lot of protection even when relatively thin. It's like the bonding studs used on Space Marine Power Armour, they did that because the materials used were inferior to the ones the armour was supposed to use, the bonding studs beefed it up a bit and added protection. That's one of the reasons why I'm okay with there only being tens of thousands of Battle Sisters, I just don't buy the idea that they would be able to have access to, if it's even possible for the Mechanicus to achieve anyway, millions or more absurdly, billions of suits of powered armour, but I digress.
EDIT: Spelling
I know the shouting has started on this one but if I can bring it back to a discussion of the issue I'm with Pouncey on this one. The silhouette and the sleeves are there, yes, but the spikes are ridiculous, the skulls are completely unnecessary, and the head is terrible. The general sense I'm getting out of the model is 'Dark Mechanicum trooper', not 'Battle Sister'.
Pouncey wrote: I see something grotesque that makes me want to vomit in rage.
[…]
I'm going to get really, really pissed and feel fully justified in expressing anger! BECAUSE YOU JUST FLAT-OUT LIED TO ME!
Seriously, you need to take a break and do anything that will get you to see this situation with some distance. Because you are over-reacting to something incredibly minor that won't have any effect on any aspect of your life if you don't let it, in a huge way. Maybe take a good cold shower? Go out take a walk/capture Pokemon(Is there still a difference these days ^^), anything!
Okay, I'm sorry.
I took some deep breaths, took a break, and I'm back, and calm.
But, I want to explain where my reaction came from.
Many, many people in this thread have talked about changing the existing aesthetic of Sisters of Battle to be more practical. I, for one, really like their aesthetic, and I don't really see any reason it needs to change, since to me it still looks good. Their aesthetic hasn't changed since 2nd edition, even in all the new artwork and book covers that have come out. And, well, I can see validity in reducing the size of their chest armor, so I'm willing to accept minor adjustments so long as they still look pretty much the same. And, as you've seen in my previous posts, the stuff people in favor of changing their looks suggest changing their looks to doesn't actually look like Sororitas at all, but they're trying to convince me Sororitas would look better. But eventually we came to the mutual understanding that a looks update should result in the models looking fairly similar to what they do now, with small tweaks. And I suggested that it might help my understanding of what people actually want to change, if someone actually drew a Sister of Battle with the changes they wanted to see made to their current aesthetic. Literally the next image anyone posted, to the approval of people in favor of changing their lore, was an image of a "Sister of Battle" which was unrecognizable as a Sister of Battle, because so, so much about it was different from the current aesthetic. And again, so many of the people in favor of changing the actual models' aesthetic said it looked good, and approved of it. To me, this meant only one thing - that that was the kind of change people actually wanted to make to the official models. It was not simply a small tweak, it was essentially an entirely new aesthetic unrelated to the original. So I felt, very strongly, like all of those promises about keeping to the current aesthetic, were lies to get me on their side.
And, as a schizophrenic, I rely heavily on being able to trust the people around me. My functioning as a human being relies on people not trying to deceive me, or lie to me, or trick me. Because my mind sometimes deceives itself, so I have to rely on the people around me telling me the truth to know what's going on. So, being lied to is one of the worst things that can happen to me. And I felt like you lied to me to get me in favor of changing the one army I love in Warhammer 40k, a game I've spent 15 years of my life being into, into something I wouldn't even recognize or even like whatsoever.
Do you understand now, why I reacted the way I did?
Interesting a split on how grimdark (tm) we want our Sisters models. I think the shaved head, the implants, the unnecessary detailing make the model more grimdark, and more 40k.
Really, it's the difference between butch and femme.
Since I'm the one that made the error of putting that image in the thread and since I'm the one that intends to use for the purposes of making my own SoB models...
I'd just like to reiterate, again, that the image is not one I intend to plunder wholesale, it is not an image that I would faithfully recreate in miniature form down to the very last detail. And please bear in mind that the image is of an individual, not an army of clones, it's perfectly possible and plausible for an individual to have a look distinct from the average line trooper.
Is the main goal of PA to look feminine? Surely the main goal is to protect the wearer, which the model depiction of the armour doesn't look like it does well.
Seriously, the baroque look is fine. Making it slimmer than Marine armour is fine. But overly exaggerated boobplate and heels, and the very obvious corset look is too much.
Boobplate can exist, but more in the style of a slight raised section, a la Brienne of Tarth's armour, or the artwork Ashiraya has (which I personally like a lot).
Why is there a fascination with making it look attractive or feminine?
As long as the SOB power armour looks noticeably different from Space Marine armour at TT level (for the sake of easy identification) and actually looks like decent armour, I won't care.
I would add a helmet and shift some armour around a bit but otherwise that looks really good.
Pouncey wrote: Do you understand now, why I reacted the way I did?
I will repeat Hybrid's advice here, I would look at something else to do for a while. Getting worked up over this is not going to help anyone. We cannot post based on how some people with schizophrenia or other conditions might react; Dakka has over 100,000 registered users. I have autism myself but that is just something you have to take precautions for - in this case, if you feel that you are easily worked up over a sensitive topic, then avoid that topic instead of telling others to not argue certain viewpoints about it.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Interesting a split on how grimdark (tm) we want our Sisters models. I think the shaved head, the implants, the unnecessary detailing make the model more grimdark, and more 40k.
Really, it's the difference between butch and femme.
Personally I view the split differently.
I view it as people who like the way Sisters of Battle actually look and always have looked, versus people who don't like anything at all about how they actually look and want to change them into something they like better.
And generally I think the people in the latter category should be playing an army they like better instead of changing the existing lore.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Is the main goal of PA to look feminine? Surely the main goal is to protect the wearer, which the model depiction of the armour doesn't look like it does well.
Seriously, the baroque look is fine. Making it slimmer than Marine armour is fine. But overly exaggerated boobplate and heels, and the very obvious corset look is too much.
Boobplate can exist, but more in the style of a slight raised section, a la Brienne of Tarth's armour, or the artwork Ashiraya has (which I personally like a lot).
Why is there a fascination with making it look attractive or feminine?
As long as the SOB power armour looks noticeably different from Space Marine armour at TT level (for the sake of easy identification) and actually looks like decent armour, I won't care.
When the only reason the Ecclesiarchy even has an army of powered armored troops at all is because they're female, yes, yes I think they absolutely should look as female as possible.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: I would add a helmet and shift some armour around a bit but otherwise that looks really good.
Pouncey wrote: Do you understand now, why I reacted the way I did?
I will repeat Hybrid's advice here, I would look at something else to do for a while. Getting worked up over this is not going to help anyone. We cannot post based on how some people with schizophrenia or other conditions might react; Dakka has over 100,000 registered users. I have autism myself but that is just something you have to take precautions for - in this case, if you feel that you are easily worked up over a sensitive topic, then avoid that topic instead of telling others to not argue certain viewpoints about it.
I already calmed down... I said I was calm at the start of that post.
Given that my Sisters are my smallest and least-played army, yes, I generally do play armies that I like better. That said, Dark Sisters of Slaanesh could be just the thing to get me to buy more and play more.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Is the main goal of PA to look feminine? Surely the main goal is to protect the wearer, which the model depiction of the armour doesn't look like it does well.
Seriously, the baroque look is fine. Making it slimmer than Marine armour is fine. But overly exaggerated boobplate and heels, and the very obvious corset look is too much. Boobplate can exist, but more in the style of a slight raised section, a la Brienne of Tarth's armour, or the artwork Ashiraya has (which I personally like a lot). Why is there a fascination with making it look attractive or feminine?
As long as the SOB power armour looks noticeably different from Space Marine armour at TT level (for the sake of easy identification) and actually looks like decent armour, I won't care.
We agree, but then, that will not come as a surprise to anyone.
Spoiler:
As for the artwork I have as my avatar, the legs ended up a bit too short in proportion to the body and I found that that makes the character look a bit more masculine than intended, so it is far from perfect. Fortunately that is a non-issue for the avatar itself.
I view it as people who like the way Sisters of Battle actually look and always have looked, versus people who don't like anything at all about how they actually look and want to change them into something they like better.
And generally I think the people in the latter category should be playing an army they like better instead of changing the existing lore.
Frankly, you repeating the false dilemma 'keep SoB exactly as they are or change absolutely everything about them' is getting tiring now. You and Manchu had a field day painting that fallacy all over the walls earlier. I really must insist that there is a non-negligible middle ground.
Ashiraya wrote: I would add a helmet and shift some armour around a bit but otherwise that looks really good.
Pouncey wrote: Do you understand now, why I reacted the way I did?
I will repeat Hybrid's advice here, I would look at something else to do for a while. Getting worked up over this is not going to help anyone. We cannot post based on how some people with schizophrenia or other conditions might react; Dakka has over 100,000 registered users. I have autism myself but that is just something you have to take precautions for - in this case, if you feel that you are easily worked up over a sensitive topic, then avoid that topic instead of telling others to not argue certain viewpoints about it.
This. Much as it sucks that you make feel that way, I don't think telling another user "Feth You" is either constructive, or in compliance with forum rules.
Not to mention Gogsnik, and many others, did say how it's a concept or theme they want to attach to the original Sisters look and tweak it. Many people don't want to redesign the Sisters completely, but rather tweak it by posting other armour sets to show the effect.
Ashiraya wrote: Frankly, you repeating the false dilemma 'keep SoB exactly as they are or change absolutely everything about them' is getting tiring now. You and Manchu had a field day painting that fallacy all over the walls earlier. I really must insist that there is a non-negligible middle ground.
I'd like to actually see what that middle ground would look like, because nobody's actually posted an artistic depiction of it yet.
To my mind the source of the miscommunication here is what, exactly, the 'aesthetic' of the Battle Sisters really is, it might help if people went into more detail on specific content.
To me the reason I like the current models is the relative cleanness; a Battle Sister has taller contoured greaves rather than the chunky greaves and separate knee-pad on most power armour, she's got cables around the collar and that's it, she's got a fairly minimalist backpack, ornate designs confined to standard-sized shoulder pads, and the coolest helmet ever fitted to a suit of armour. Gogsnik's picture has random skulls slapped on haphazardly, extra cables stuck all over the place, and the distinctive haircut/helmet has been cut in favour of a crumpled bald head full of wires that would embarass a Grey Knight.
And Pouncey, it is fairly easy for me to mentally take a single design element - such as a breastplate, a kneepad, a shift in size of X component - and apply it to another picture.
If it is harder for you, I acknowledge that, but it is not something I can help with.
JohnHwangDD wrote: In the middle ground, that's where I proposed wimples, buzz cuts and sallet helms.
What are whimples and sallet helms?
Also buzzcuts are right out. No way, whatsoever. Being bald or nearly bald makes humans look much, much more similar in terms of gender, and short hair is masculine for humans while longer hair is more feminine. Their hairstyle should be fairly long.
Pouncey wrote: I'd like to actually see what that middle ground would look like, because nobody's actually posted an artistic depiction of it yet.
I suppose I should get to working on that.
Unfortunately the only medium I'm any good at working in is converting Warhammer models and some of the components I wanted to hack on are in the mail right now so it may take a while.
Ashiraya wrote: And Pouncey, it is fairly easy for me to mentally take a single design element - such as a breastplate, a kneepad, a shift in size of X component - and apply it to another picture.
If it is harder for you, I acknowledge that, but it is not something I can help with.
Previous pictures have generally referred to video game characters from other franchises and essentially saying, "Like that, but with this and this and this and this and this."
JohnHwangDD wrote: In the middle ground, that's where I proposed wimples, buzz cuts and sallet helms.
What are whimples and sallet helms?
Also buzzcuts are right out. No way, whatsoever. Being bald or nearly bald makes humans look much, much more similar in terms of gender, and short hair is masculine for humans while longer hair is more feminine. Their hairstyle should be fairly long.
A wimple is the classic 'nun headdress', the sort of squared-off black and white hood thing.
JohnHwangDD wrote: In the middle ground, that's where I proposed wimples, buzz cuts and sallet helms.
What are whimples and sallet helms?
Also buzzcuts are right out. No way, whatsoever. Being bald or nearly bald makes humans look much, much more similar in terms of gender, and short hair is masculine for humans while longer hair is more feminine. Their hairstyle should be fairly long.
A hair variety would be best. Long hair, short hair, bald cut.
Ashiraya wrote: And Pouncey, it is fairly easy for me to mentally take a single design element - such as a breastplate, a kneepad, a shift in size of X component - and apply it to another picture.
If it is harder for you, I acknowledge that, but it is not something I can help with.
Previous pictures have generally referred to video game characters from other franchises and essentially saying, "Like that, but with this and this and this and this and this."
Indeed. Separating design elements from each and assembling an estimated result is not too difficult for me.
Interesting a split on how grimdark (tm) we want our Sisters models. I think the shaved head, the implants, the unnecessary detailing make the model more grimdark, and more 40k.
Really, it's the difference between butch and femme.
Personally I view the split differently.
I view it as people who like the way Sisters of Battle actually look and always have looked, versus people who don't like anything at all about how they actually look and want to change them into something they like better.
And generally I think the people in the latter category should be playing an army they like better instead of changing the existing lore.
Got another suggestion for people who want to play a female religious organisation who wear heavy armour but dislike the current look because of it's awkwardness?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Is the main goal of PA to look feminine? Surely the main goal is to protect the wearer, which the model depiction of the armour doesn't look like it does well.
Seriously, the baroque look is fine. Making it slimmer than Marine armour is fine. But overly exaggerated boobplate and heels, and the very obvious corset look is too much.
Boobplate can exist, but more in the style of a slight raised section, a la Brienne of Tarth's armour, or the artwork Ashiraya has (which I personally like a lot).
Why is there a fascination with making it look attractive or feminine?
As long as the SOB power armour looks noticeably different from Space Marine armour at TT level (for the sake of easy identification) and actually looks like decent armour, I won't care.
When the only reason the Ecclesiarchy even has an army of powered armored troops at all is because they're female, yes, yes I think they absolutely should look as female as possible.
But why bother putting them in armour if the armour looks awkward and impractical as hell?
Heels?
Massive boobplate?
Corsets?
It needs to look like actual armour, and give them their own distinct aesthetic from other power armour groups. Being overpoweringly female is not a requirement of the armour. A slightly raised section at the front and female heads would do.
Otherwise, can I not use the Space Marine argument - they are all-male as part of their design, but how can I tell they're male under that armour? I need sculpt unrealistically large abs and a penis on, obviously.
JohnHwangDD wrote: In the middle ground, that's where I proposed wimples, buzz cuts and sallet helms.
What are whimples and sallet helms?
Also buzzcuts are right out. No way, whatsoever. Being bald or nearly bald makes humans look much, much more similar in terms of gender, and short hair is masculine for humans while longer hair is more feminine. Their hairstyle should be fairly long.
A hair variety would be best. Long hair, short hair, bald cut.
No wimples though, in my opinion.
I think a uniform haircut is better. And it's how they currently are.
Ashiraya wrote: And Pouncey, it is fairly easy for me to mentally take a single design element - such as a breastplate, a kneepad, a shift in size of X component - and apply it to another picture.
If it is harder for you, I acknowledge that, but it is not something I can help with.
Previous pictures have generally referred to video game characters from other franchises and essentially saying, "Like that, but with this and this and this and this and this."
Indeed. Separating design elements from each and assembling an estimated result is not too difficult for me.
It would help if I even knew what design element from the screenshot they even wanted to transplant onto an existing Sister of Battle.
JohnHwangDD wrote: In the middle ground, that's where I proposed wimples, buzz cuts and sallet helms.
What are whimples and sallet helms?
Also buzzcuts are right out. No way, whatsoever. Being bald or nearly bald makes humans look much, much more similar in terms of gender, and short hair is masculine for humans while longer hair is more feminine. Their hairstyle should be fairly long.
A hair variety would be best. Long hair, short hair, bald cut.
No wimples though, in my opinion.
I don't know, I like the idea of the standardized squared-off bob they've got now, it's roughly like how you'd see a medieval monastery and everyone would have a tonsure and a fringe. The Order regulates haircuts.
As to whether different Orders requite different haircuts, possibly but if they were a plastic kit you wouldn't be putting heads with multiple standardized-across-squads hairdos in it.
I think we can all agree the overall Sister aesthetic is pretty cool. It's more that certain elements of it are questionable to some people (such as the "boobplate"). So my idea would be to take the general look of the Sister's armor (I love those helmets) and use that as the base for the new armor, and maybe take out the boobplate
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Got another suggestion for people who want to play a female religious organisation who wear heavy armour but dislike the current look because of it's awkwardness?
Yes.
Don't destroy something that people already have, currently love, and have spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on just because you don't like it and might like something else better.
Make your own models and don't try to mess with the current ones.
But why bother putting them in armour if the armour looks awkward and impractical as hell?
Heels?
Massive boobplate?
Corsets?
It needs to look like actual armour, and give them their own distinct aesthetic from other power armour groups. Being overpoweringly female is not a requirement of the armour. A slightly raised section at the front and female heads would do.
Otherwise, can I not use the Space Marine argument - they are all-male as part of their design, but how can I tell they're male under that armour? I need sculpt unrealistically large abs and a penis on, obviously.
Um... I'm 100% sure that Sisters of Battle armor looking excessively feminine is a crucial design feature.
Imagine this.
What would happen in the lore if people saw the Ecclesiarchy fielding an army of power armored men with bolters?
Pouncey wrote: What would happen in the lore if people saw the Ecclesiarchy fielding an army of power armored men with bolters?
That would be a gross and deliberate violation of the Decree Passive. As a rival Inquisitor, I might take it upon myself to second a number of Space Marines, Navy and Guard assets to destroy that "rogue" Eccelesarcy force, and bring their leaders to summary justice.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Got another suggestion for people who want to play a female religious organisation who wear heavy armour but dislike the current look because of it's awkwardness?
Yes.
Don't destroy something that people already have, currently love, and have spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on just because you don't like it and might like something else better.
Make your own models and don't try to mess with the current ones.
But why bother putting them in armour if the armour looks awkward and impractical as hell?
Heels?
Massive boobplate?
Corsets?
It needs to look like actual armour, and give them their own distinct aesthetic from other power armour groups. Being overpoweringly female is not a requirement of the armour. A slightly raised section at the front and female heads would do.
Otherwise, can I not use the Space Marine argument - they are all-male as part of their design, but how can I tell they're male under that armour? I need sculpt unrealistically large abs and a penis on, obviously.
Um... I'm 100% sure that Sisters of Battle armor looking excessively feminine is a crucial design feature.
Imagine this.
What would happen in the lore if people saw the Ecclesiarchy fielding an army of power armored men with bolters?
Certain members of the Ecclesiarchy would find themselves in multiple garbage bags courtesy of the Assassins.
AnomanderRake wrote: I don't know, I like the idea of the standardized squared-off bob they've got now, it's roughly like how you'd see a medieval monastery and everyone would have a tonsure and a fringe. The Order regulates haircuts.
As to whether different Orders requite different haircuts, possibly but if they were a plastic kit you wouldn't be putting heads with multiple standardized-across-squads hairdos in it.
Marines are monks like SoB are nuns, but they have varying haircuts. It does not seem to be a big issue really.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pouncey wrote: Um... I'm 100% sure that Sisters of Battle armor looking excessively feminine is a crucial design feature.
This is still fanfiction, by the way, with no lore backing. It is what you wish the lore would be, not what it is. The distinction is very important to make.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Got another suggestion for people who want to play a female religious organisation who wear heavy armour but dislike the current look because of it's awkwardness?
Yes.
Don't destroy something that people already have, currently love, and have spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on just because you don't like it and might like something else better.
Make your own models and don't try to mess with the current ones.
You understand that if they change some details in an update, they won't come around to your house and stamp on your existing collection? Nor will they unprint the art.
It is almost inevitable that Sisters will change if they get an update. The only thing that's really up for debate is the magnitude of the change.
Plus, of course, the reverse of "Make your own models and don't try to mess with the current ones" is "modify the models so they better suit your ideas" which applies both to people who want to collect them now but want them slightly different or any future collector who dislikes any changes they may implement.
Pouncey wrote: What would happen in the lore if people saw the Ecclesiarchy fielding an army of power armored men with bolters?
That would be a gross and deliberate violation of the Decree Passive. As a rival Inquisitor, I might take it upon myself to second a number of Space Marines, Navy and Guard assets to destroy that "rogue" Eccelesarcy force, and bring their leaders to summary justice.
TheCustomLime wrote: Certain members of the Ecclesiarchy would find themselves in multiple garbage bags courtesy of the Assassins.
Pouncey wrote: What would happen in the lore if people saw the Ecclesiarchy fielding an army of power armored men with bolters?
That would be a gross and deliberate violation of the Decree Passive. As a rival Inquisitor, I might take it upon myself to second a number of Space Marines, Navy and Guard assets to destroy that "rogue" Eccelesarcy force, and bring their leaders to summary justice.
Correct.
Now realize that completely practical power armor, especially with a helmet on, means Sisters of Battle would be easily mistaken for men. And that many people in the Imperium have really, really bad eyesight due to poor medical care.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Got another suggestion for people who want to play a female religious organisation who wear heavy armour but dislike the current look because of it's awkwardness?
Yes.
Don't destroy something that people already have, currently love, and have spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on just because you don't like it and might like something else better.
Make your own models and don't try to mess with the current ones.
So then, do you, or do you not oppose the redesigning of the Dark Eldar? The Scions? CSM Raptors?
Or is this an isolated case?
But why bother putting them in armour if the armour looks awkward and impractical as hell?
Heels?
Massive boobplate?
Corsets?
It needs to look like actual armour, and give them their own distinct aesthetic from other power armour groups. Being overpoweringly female is not a requirement of the armour. A slightly raised section at the front and female heads would do.
Otherwise, can I not use the Space Marine argument - they are all-male as part of their design, but how can I tell they're male under that armour? I need sculpt unrealistically large abs and a penis on, obviously.
Um... I'm 100% sure that Sisters of Battle armor looking excessively feminine is a crucial design feature.
Imagine this.
What would happen in the lore if people saw the Ecclesiarchy fielding an army of power armored men with bolters?
I would disagree with you on that point. Looking female is not the main point. Actually saving the lives of females is.
If I saw men in the lore fighting directly for the Ecclesiarchy, I'd have an issue, as it breaks the Decree Passive. However, we're talking about women, not men. Unless you automatically assume that anyone in power armour is a man, that issue shouldn't come up if the Sisters have a recognisable armour set (Sallet Helms) and can be visually identified by armour alone as SOB.
Pouncey wrote: What would happen in the lore if people saw the Ecclesiarchy fielding an army of power armored men with bolters?
That would be a gross and deliberate violation of the Decree Passive. As a rival Inquisitor, I might take it upon myself to second a number of Space Marines, Navy and Guard assets to destroy that "rogue" Eccelesarcy force, and bring their leaders to summary justice.
Correct.
Now realize that completely practical power armor, especially with a helmet on, means Sisters of Battle would be easily mistaken for men. And that many people in the Imperium have really, really bad eyesight due to poor medical care.
So why are SoB not extinct? Distance, battlefield conditions like smoke and fog, etc. can easily make them look androgynous even now, after all.
And if they wait until they can get a good look, then they can just as well ask the soldier they are about to execute - and when they get a female voice in response all is good.
Personnaly, while it does make sense of SoB to have a standard mandatory haircut up to a certain point, I don't like the squared bob cut they sport now. To me its a late 80's early 90's fashion disaster a bit like Abbadon haircut (except I love ot hate Abbadon). Its purely for esthetic reason and frankly I would be more in favor for more sisters with helmets since they are probably the coolest one amongst Imperial forces or maybe hoods.
AnomanderRake wrote: I don't know, I like the idea of the standardized squared-off bob they've got now, it's roughly like how you'd see a medieval monastery and everyone would have a tonsure and a fringe. The Order regulates haircuts.
As to whether different Orders requite different haircuts, possibly but if they were a plastic kit you wouldn't be putting heads with multiple standardized-across-squads hairdos in it.
Marines are monks like SoB are nuns, but they have varying haircuts. It does not seem to be a big issue really.
Says you. I enforce baldness in my Space Marines. (That may be because they're Salamanders and I can't figure out a colour of hair to stick above jet-black skin that doesn't look at least slightly ridiculous).
Marines are very secularized monks, the imagery and language are dramatically less religious than the Sisters'. They've lost touch with their monastic roots in favour of their own distinct sci-fi persona.
Marines are very secularized monks, the imagery and language are dramatically less religious than the Sisters'. They've lost touch with their monastic roots in favour of their own distinct sci-fi persona.
. And I don't know how they are named in English but on the French book I have, many of them have very French-sounding names, unlike the Empire ones that have German-sounding names.
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