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pm713 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am not sure what you are trying to argue?

Nothing you posted either refuted or added to what you quoted. Did you intend to quote someone else?

WTF? You said armor didn't have to express gender.

Via the enormous armored codpiece, I demonstrated that it definitely did.

No you didn't. You show that it can which we already knew.

Bingo.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am not sure what you are trying to argue?

Nothing you posted either refuted or added to what you quoted. Did you intend to quote someone else?

I'm gonna assume you mean me.

I asked for a miniature. Not a video game character.

For an example of the difference, this is an Eldar Striking Scorpion miniature:

Spoiler:

And this is an Eldar Striking Scorpion video game character from Eternal Crusade:

Spoiler:

You may notice the large differences between the two.

This arguably helps my point, though I weren't trying to address you (a good rule of thumb is that when someone posts a reply without quotes, they are likely replying to the last poster). The EC model is of considerably lower quality than the GW model!

Now, this is not a good example because Eternal Crusade uses character models that would look dated ten years ago but, my point stands.

There are not many good miniatures for me to use as an example, which in itself is evidence of just how underdeveloped this niche is, unlike cheesecake which is a dime a dozen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

Or we could just let the Astartes keep their aesthetic, the Sororitas keep their aesthetic, and not change either one?

I like that idea, personally.

Were you a Dark Eldar player, I assume you would have cursed the name of their 5th ed revamp as well, as it completely overhauled the faction?

That this 'change is inherently bad' idea is so rampant is really concerning! And yes, they were very much revamped, not just updated - compare the old and new Grotesques and Talos, for instance.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Were you a Dark Eldar player, I assume you would have cursed the name of their 5th ed revamp as well, as it completely overhauled the faction?

That this 'change is inherently bad' idea is so rampant is really concerning! And yes, they were very much revamped, not just updated - compare the old and new Grotesques and Talos, for instance.

I wasn't, but I generally viewed the 5th edition revamp of Dark Eldar as an improvement since the old models were simply badly sculpted.

The Sisters of Battle models still look good, their sculpts have aged very, very well. There's no need to change the aesthetic because it still looks good.

 Pouncey wrote:
I wasn't, but I generally viewed the 5th edition revamp of Dark Eldar as an improvement since the old models were simply badly sculpted.

I consider the situation being discussed here as essentially identical.

Compare the old Talos and the new - both look like terrifying murder-machines to be sure, despite sharing few other similarities (though I agree the new design to be vastly superior). You can maintain the concepts of a faction while still overhauling and modernising its design.

I do not believe that latching onto the status quo like a drowning sailor to a lifeboat is what is best for the faction.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I wasn't, but I generally viewed the 5th edition revamp of Dark Eldar as an improvement since the old models were simply badly sculpted.

I consider the situation being discussed here as essentially identical.

Compare the old Talos and the new - both look like terrifying murder-machines to be sure, despite sharing few other similarities (though I agree the new design to be vastly superior). You can maintain the concepts of a faction while still overhauling and modernising its design.

I do not believe that latching onto the status quo like a drowning sailor to a lifeboat is what is best for the faction.

Given the kinds of examples people have been tossing out, the changes they're proposing seem drastically huge. Many of the examples people are showing of how they think Sororitas should look aren't even wearing power armor! Some have shaved heads, some have bodies that I can't even tell are female!

So, yes, I get friggin panicky when people seem to be proposing entirely destroying the entire Sororitas aesthetic and creating something they personally prefer in its place.

If you want to say that the boobplate should be made less ridiculous, yes, I agree, that's fine. If you want to keep high heels off the models, I totally agree.

Just... it seems people want to go way, WAY beyond simply modernizing the existing aesthetic and more into the realm of creating something I couldn't even tell was a Sister of Battle!

 Pouncey wrote:
So, yes, I get friggin panicky when people seem to be proposing entirely destroying the entire Sororitas aesthetic and creating something they personally prefer in its place.

There is no need to panic. Whether they are updated or not, neither you, me, or anyone else in this thread can decide. All we can do is watch, wait and hope for our respective ideal outcomes.

Just... it seems people want to go way, WAY beyond simply modernizing the existing aesthetic and more into the realm of creating something I couldn't even tell was a Sister of Battle!

I only speak for myself here, of course, but I personally have only posted examples to compare certain design aspects of them to what I think would be ideal. I would not want a Sister of Battle who looks exactly like Commander Shepard, for example.

The gothic design, half-robe PA, the extremely awesome helmet design, the Godwyn-de'az bolter, the list goes on and on - I think SoB should keep most of what they have. If we keep realism out of the context, I just want armour that makes them look professional, rather than armour that makes them look foolish or worse.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Having females in power armor that doesn't let know they are female is missing the point of having females in power armor. You might as well just use Adeptus Astartes

Having males in power armour that doesn't explicitly let know they are male is missing the point of having males in power armour.

Astartes armour is so bulky ANY gender of genetically engineered super soldier could be inside it, so if we want the models to be male, the armour should have prominent penises on it, or bare sections where their big manly shoulder muscles are. Maybe prominent Adams Apple armour?

If you can't tell the model is male from a distance, there's no point having any men in the game at all.

Your response is not nearly as clever as you think it is. Especially when you omitted the picture I included of a female is Astartes Armor.

If YOU want genderless armor you already have that option, by using Astartes Armor.
Some of us like the Sororitas the way they are.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
So, yes, I get friggin panicky when people seem to be proposing entirely destroying the entire Sororitas aesthetic and creating something they personally prefer in its place.

There is no need to panic. Whether they are updated or not, neither you, me, or anyone else in this thread can decide. All we can do is watch, wait and hope for our respective ideal outcomes.

Just... it seems people want to go way, WAY beyond simply modernizing the existing aesthetic and more into the realm of creating something I couldn't even tell was a Sister of Battle!

I only speak for myself here, of course, but I personally have only posted examples to compare certain design aspects of them to what I think would be ideal. I would not want a Sister of Battle who looks exactly like Commander Shepard, for example.

The gothic design, half-robe PA, the extremely awesome helmet design, the Godwyn-de'az bolter, the list goes on and on - I think SoB should keep most of what they have. If we keep realism out of the context, I just want armour that makes them look professional, rather than armour that makes them look foolish or worse.

I'm all for modernizing their armor so long as it keeps the aesthetic.

It's just, when you say, "Hey, what if we make them look kinda like this..." and then you link me to a picture of someone who doesn't look at all like a Sororitas, I'm actually incapable of imagining the things you're mentally adding onto whatever you're showing me, because all I see is someone who does not look like a Sister of Battle whatsoever and you just told me you think Sororitas would look better like that. Whatever specific traits you're trying to make me imagine on the current Sororitas armor aren't really what I'm imagining, instead I view it as, "Take Sororitas and make them look like THIS."

I think maybe if any of us had any art skill with a pencil and paper or computer drawing program, it might help my understanding to take a template of what a Sororitas looks like (for simplicity's sake, maybe the crappy art used solely to show color schemes), modify it with the changes you'd like to see to the current aesthetic, so that I'm being shown exactly what you're talking about instead of having to try to match up my imagination with yours.

 Pouncey wrote:
The power loader in Aliens was for moving heavy cargo around.

I didn't mean a literal analogue. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

 Pendix wrote:
I've dabbled in sculpting Sister-style armour myself, (though I kept the Boob-Plate) and I'd love to see what you come up with.

The image that I hope to use a basis for my own Sisters of Battle is this one:



What I hope to achieve with the model/s is something that retains much of a Sister of Battle's style, as with that picture, but I also think that a form fitting armour, for me anyway, seems more advanced and the armour plate doesn't need to be hugely thick because the materials used offer a lot of protection even when relatively thin. It's like the bonding studs used on Space Marine Power Armour, they did that because the materials used were inferior to the ones the armour was supposed to use, the bonding studs beefed it up a bit and added protection. That's one of the reasons why I'm okay with there only being tens of thousands of Battle Sisters, I just don't buy the idea that they would be able to have access to, if it's even possible for the Mechanicus to achieve anyway, millions or more absurdly, billions of suits of powered armour, but I digress.


EDIT: Spelling

That not-Sister is great, aside from hardmounting her head to her collar.

I've always been somewhat confused by just how that, thing works, although it does make her look pretty bad ass. Needless to say, I've seen lots of images of Sisters with all sorts of hairstyles, and to me, they all work, so I'd like to try having a go at that since there aren't that many female heads for models around and I've never tried sculpting one. I do like that servo head gadget though and the fact she's bald, it just looks very interesting to me as a design and style.

 Gogsnik wrote:
What I hope to achieve with the model/s is something that retains much of a Sister of Battle's style, as with that picture, but I also think that a form fitting armour, for me anyway, seems more advanced and the armour plate doesn't need to be hugely thick because the materials used offer a lot of protection even when relatively thin. It's like the bonding studs used on Space Marine Power Armour, they did that because the materials used were inferior to the ones the armour was supposed to use, the bonding studs beefed it up a bit and added protection. That's one of the reasons why I'm okay with there only being tens of thousands of Battle Sisters, I just don't buy the idea that they would be able to have access to, if it's even possible for the Mechanicus to achieve anyway, millions or more absurdly, billions of suits of powered armour, but I digress.


EDIT: Spelling

Personally I think you failed utterly at retaining anything at all of their current aesthetic.

I think the only thing you actually kept are the Inquisition and Imperial insignia.

If this is what you guys who hate the current aesthetic think of as "modernizing" or "improving" their current look, then feth that idea entirely. Just keep their current aesthetic entirely. Not a single change, because you obviously don't actually like anything about how they currently look. [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

 adamsouza wrote:
Your response is not nearly as clever as you think it is.

It's actually likely even cleverer than he thought.
And if you think that Sisters in an armor that doesn't show their gender is the same as Sisters in Astartes armor, see the difference I mention just below.

 Ashiraya wrote:
If we keep realism out of the context, I just want armour that makes them look professional, rather than armour that makes them look foolish or worse.

I definitely disagree here. Just like the exorcist doesn't look like something professional and utilitarian, neither should the Sisters' armor. That's part of what sets them apart from marines. Marines look utilitarian, at least to a much higher degree than Sisters of Battle. Sisters of Battle are mad baroque creation of incredibly wealthy religious nutcase, and they should look the part, i.e. their armor should look more like ostentatious display of obscene wealth than sensible armor made by people who care about efficiency.

 Pouncey wrote:

Personally I think you failed utterly at retaining anything at all of their current aesthetic.

I think the only thing you actually kept are the Inquisition and Imperial insignia.

You realise that isn't my own personal artwork yes? And I did say "use as a basis", again it's not a literal copy.

As it goes though, what other elements that GW have on their Sisters, that are not present in that image, makes you see that image as an utter failure? It doesn't have the boob plate, which I don't intend to use anyway, but it does have the shoulder pads, sleeves and loincloth-thing. Apart from the hairstyle and/or Sabbat helm and an obvious Fluer de Lys, what other design elements are missing?

 Pouncey wrote:
I think the only thing you actually kept are the Inquisition and Imperial insignia.

And the backpack, the tabard, the sleeves, the shoulder pad, …
Definitely a reinterpretation that manage to be very close to the original yet really distinct.

 Pouncey wrote:
[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

That's a violation of rule #1 and you should apologize right now. Insulting people because they happen to have put a lot of thought and effort into redesigning an armor and you don't like the result is way out of the line. Especially when this redesign is just a fan's work and will not lead to any change in anything from GW ever.

 Gogsnik wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Personally I think you failed utterly at retaining anything at all of their current aesthetic.

I think the only thing you actually kept are the Inquisition and Imperial insignia.

You realise that isn't my own personal artwork yes? And I did say "use as a basis", again it's not a literal copy.

As it goes though, what other elements that GW have on their Sisters, that are not present in that image, makes you see that image as an utter failure? It doesn't have the boob plate, which I don't intend to use anyway, but it does have the shoulder pads, sleeves and loincloth-thing. Apart from the hairstyle and/or Sabbat helm and an obvious Fluer de Lys, what other design elements are missing?

This art has skull motifs everywhere, all over the armor. The Sororitas herself is bald and she has a fethed up mechanism around the back half of her head linking her to her armor. The boob plate is gone entirely instead of just reduced. The armor has tons and tons, and fething TONS of finnicky details everywhere instead of being smooth and streamlined. The spikes on the backpack are curved and their placement is messed up and they're diagonal. The shape of the shoulder pauldrons is completely different. SKULLS. FETHING. EVERYWHERE. Her armor doesn't look feminine whatsoever. Spikes on the toes of the boots. DID I MENTION ALL THE SKULLS EVERYWHERE? And when I look at her, I'm even assuming it's a her, I don't see a Sister of Battle, I see something grotesque that makes me want to vomit in rage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

That's a violation of rule #1 and you should apologize right now. Insulting people because they happen to have put a lot of thought and effort into redesigning an armor and you don't like the result is way out of the line. Especially when this redesign is just a fan's work and will not lead to any change in anything from GW ever.

NO!

When you tell me, "I want to keep their current aesthetic!" and try to get me on board with changing their aesthetic, then show me something completely different from their current aesthetic, I'm going to get really, really pissed and feel fully justified in expressing anger! BECAUSE YOU JUST FLAT-OUT LIED TO ME!

 Pouncey wrote:
If this is what you guys who hate the current aesthetic think of as "modernizing" or "improving" their current look, then feth that idea entirely. Just keep their current aesthetic entirely. Not a single change, because you obviously don't actually like anything about how they currently look. [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

Ouch, well that's me told!!!

And for the record, just in case anyone is in doubt, I do not hate the SoB aesthetic, I wouldn't want to make models of them at all if I did. Oh well, you can't appeal to everyone.

Gogsnik, your drawing talents are really impressive and that's a really really interesting redesign!
I'm not quite convinced by the bolter though. But an spectacularly great piece!

 Pouncey wrote:

This art has skull motifs everywhere, all over the armor. The Sororitas herself is bald and she has a fethed up mechanism around the back half of her head linking her to her armor. The boob plate is gone entirely instead of just reduced. The armor has tons and tons, and fething TONS of finnicky details everywhere instead of being smooth and streamlined. The spikes on the backpack are curved and their placement is messed up and they're diagonal. The shape of the shoulder pauldrons is completely different. SKULLS. FETHING. EVERYWHERE. Her armor doesn't look feminine whatsoever. Spikes on the toes of the boots. DID I MENTION ALL THE SKULLS EVERYWHERE? And when I look at her, I'm even assuming it's a her, I don't see a Sister of Battle, I see something grotesque that makes me want to vomit in rage.

Hm, interesting analysis. Certainly something I'll bear in mind in my own models, which will not be a literal copy of this image as I have already stated.

Note to self: less skulls. No curvy spikes...


EDIT - Not my drawing, just to throw that out there again. It's by Rayph on DeviantArt.

I really like that redesign of the Sororitas power armor. It looks baroque and gothic as hell without having goofy boob armor. But I would prefer a helmet over that... Frankly bizarre headgear.

Oh, and the feur de lis.

 Pouncey wrote:
I see something grotesque that makes me want to vomit in rage.
[…]
I'm going to get really, really pissed and feel fully justified in expressing anger! BECAUSE YOU JUST FLAT-OUT LIED TO ME!

Seriously, you need to take a break and do anything that will get you to see this situation with some distance. Because you are over-reacting to something incredibly minor that won't have any effect on any aspect of your life if you don't let it, in a huge way. Maybe take a good cold shower? Go out take a walk/capture Pokemon(Is there still a difference these days ^^), anything!

 Pouncey wrote:
If this is what you guys who hate the current aesthetic think of as "modernizing" or "improving" their current look, then feth that idea entirely. Just keep their current aesthetic entirely. Not a single change, because you obviously don't actually like anything about how they currently look. [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

Not cool, Pouncey, not cool.

 Gogsnik wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
The power loader in Aliens was for moving heavy cargo around.

I didn't mean a literal analogue. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

 Pendix wrote:
I've dabbled in sculpting Sister-style armour myself, (though I kept the Boob-Plate) and I'd love to see what you come up with.

The image that I hope to use a basis for my own Sisters of Battle is this one:

Spoiler:

What I hope to achieve with the model/s is something that retains much of a Sister of Battle's style, as with that picture, but I also think that a form fitting armour, for me anyway, seems more advanced and the armour plate doesn't need to be hugely thick because the materials used offer a lot of protection even when relatively thin. It's like the bonding studs used on Space Marine Power Armour, they did that because the materials used were inferior to the ones the armour was supposed to use, the bonding studs beefed it up a bit and added protection. That's one of the reasons why I'm okay with there only being tens of thousands of Battle Sisters, I just don't buy the idea that they would be able to have access to, if it's even possible for the Mechanicus to achieve anyway, millions or more absurdly, billions of suits of powered armour, but I digress.


EDIT: Spelling

I know the shouting has started on this one but if I can bring it back to a discussion of the issue I'm with Pouncey on this one. The silhouette and the sleeves are there, yes, but the spikes are ridiculous, the skulls are completely unnecessary, and the head is terrible. The general sense I'm getting out of the model is 'Dark Mechanicum trooper', not 'Battle Sister'.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I see something grotesque that makes me want to vomit in rage.
[…]
I'm going to get really, really pissed and feel fully justified in expressing anger! BECAUSE YOU JUST FLAT-OUT LIED TO ME!

Seriously, you need to take a break and do anything that will get you to see this situation with some distance. Because you are over-reacting to something incredibly minor that won't have any effect on any aspect of your life if you don't let it, in a huge way. Maybe take a good cold shower? Go out take a walk/capture Pokemon(Is there still a difference these days ^^), anything!

Okay, I'm sorry.

I took some deep breaths, took a break, and I'm back, and calm.

But, I want to explain where my reaction came from.

Many, many people in this thread have talked about changing the existing aesthetic of Sisters of Battle to be more practical. I, for one, really like their aesthetic, and I don't really see any reason it needs to change, since to me it still looks good. Their aesthetic hasn't changed since 2nd edition, even in all the new artwork and book covers that have come out. And, well, I can see validity in reducing the size of their chest armor, so I'm willing to accept minor adjustments so long as they still look pretty much the same. And, as you've seen in my previous posts, the stuff people in favor of changing their looks suggest changing their looks to doesn't actually look like Sororitas at all, but they're trying to convince me Sororitas would look better. But eventually we came to the mutual understanding that a looks update should result in the models looking fairly similar to what they do now, with small tweaks. And I suggested that it might help my understanding of what people actually want to change, if someone actually drew a Sister of Battle with the changes they wanted to see made to their current aesthetic. Literally the next image anyone posted, to the approval of people in favor of changing their lore, was an image of a "Sister of Battle" which was unrecognizable as a Sister of Battle, because so, so much about it was different from the current aesthetic. And again, so many of the people in favor of changing the actual models' aesthetic said it looked good, and approved of it. To me, this meant only one thing - that that was the kind of change people actually wanted to make to the official models. It was not simply a small tweak, it was essentially an entirely new aesthetic unrelated to the original. So I felt, very strongly, like all of those promises about keeping to the current aesthetic, were lies to get me on their side.

And, as a schizophrenic, I rely heavily on being able to trust the people around me. My functioning as a human being relies on people not trying to deceive me, or lie to me, or trick me. Because my mind sometimes deceives itself, so I have to rely on the people around me telling me the truth to know what's going on. So, being lied to is one of the worst things that can happen to me. And I felt like you lied to me to get me in favor of changing the one army I love in Warhammer 40k, a game I've spent 15 years of my life being into, into something I wouldn't even recognize or even like whatsoever.

Do you understand now, why I reacted the way I did?

Interesting a split on how grimdark (tm) we want our Sisters models. I think the shaved head, the implants, the unnecessary detailing make the model more grimdark, and more 40k.

Really, it's the difference between butch and femme.

Since I'm the one that made the error of putting that image in the thread and since I'm the one that intends to use for the purposes of making my own SoB models...


I'd just like to reiterate, again, that the image is not one I intend to plunder wholesale, it is not an image that I would faithfully recreate in miniature form down to the very last detail. And please bear in mind that the image is of an individual, not an army of clones, it's perfectly possible and plausible for an individual to have a look distinct from the average line trooper.

Is the main goal of PA to look feminine? Surely the main goal is to protect the wearer, which the model depiction of the armour doesn't look like it does well.

Seriously, the baroque look is fine. Making it slimmer than Marine armour is fine. But overly exaggerated boobplate and heels, and the very obvious corset look is too much.
Boobplate can exist, but more in the style of a slight raised section, a la Brienne of Tarth's armour, or the artwork Ashiraya has (which I personally like a lot).
Why is there a fascination with making it look attractive or feminine?

As long as the SOB power armour looks noticeably different from Space Marine armour at TT level (for the sake of easy identification) and actually looks like decent armour, I won't care.

I would add a helmet and shift some armour around a bit but otherwise that looks really good.

 Pouncey wrote:
Do you understand now, why I reacted the way I did?

I will repeat Hybrid's advice here, I would look at something else to do for a while. Getting worked up over this is not going to help anyone. We cannot post based on how some people with schizophrenia or other conditions might react; Dakka has over 100,000 registered users. I have autism myself but that is just something you have to take precautions for - in this case, if you feel that you are easily worked up over a sensitive topic, then avoid that topic instead of telling others to not argue certain viewpoints about it.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Interesting a split on how grimdark (tm) we want our Sisters models. I think the shaved head, the implants, the unnecessary detailing make the model more grimdark, and more 40k.

Really, it's the difference between butch and femme.

Personally I view the split differently.

I view it as people who like the way Sisters of Battle actually look and always have looked, versus people who don't like anything at all about how they actually look and want to change them into something they like better.

And generally I think the people in the latter category should be playing an army they like better instead of changing the existing lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Is the main goal of PA to look feminine? Surely the main goal is to protect the wearer, which the model depiction of the armour doesn't look like it does well.

Seriously, the baroque look is fine. Making it slimmer than Marine armour is fine. But overly exaggerated boobplate and heels, and the very obvious corset look is too much.
Boobplate can exist, but more in the style of a slight raised section, a la Brienne of Tarth's armour, or the artwork Ashiraya has (which I personally like a lot).
Why is there a fascination with making it look attractive or feminine?

As long as the SOB power armour looks noticeably different from Space Marine armour at TT level (for the sake of easy identification) and actually looks like decent armour, I won't care.

When the only reason the Ecclesiarchy even has an army of powered armored troops at all is because they're female, yes, yes I think they absolutely should look as female as possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I would add a helmet and shift some armour around a bit but otherwise that looks really good.

 Pouncey wrote:
Do you understand now, why I reacted the way I did?

I will repeat Hybrid's advice here, I would look at something else to do for a while. Getting worked up over this is not going to help anyone. We cannot post based on how some people with schizophrenia or other conditions might react; Dakka has over 100,000 registered users. I have autism myself but that is just something you have to take precautions for - in this case, if you feel that you are easily worked up over a sensitive topic, then avoid that topic instead of telling others to not argue certain viewpoints about it.

I already calmed down... I said I was calm at the start of that post.

Given that my Sisters are my smallest and least-played army, yes, I generally do play armies that I like better. That said, Dark Sisters of Slaanesh could be just the thing to get me to buy more and play more.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Is the main goal of PA to look feminine? Surely the main goal is to protect the wearer, which the model depiction of the armour doesn't look like it does well.

Seriously, the baroque look is fine. Making it slimmer than Marine armour is fine. But overly exaggerated boobplate and heels, and the very obvious corset look is too much.
Boobplate can exist, but more in the style of a slight raised section, a la Brienne of Tarth's armour, or the artwork Ashiraya has (which I personally like a lot).
Why is there a fascination with making it look attractive or feminine?

As long as the SOB power armour looks noticeably different from Space Marine armour at TT level (for the sake of easy identification) and actually looks like decent armour, I won't care.

We agree, but then, that will not come as a surprise to anyone.

 Pouncey wrote:


Personally I view the split differently.

I view it as people who like the way Sisters of Battle actually look and always have looked, versus people who don't like anything at all about how they actually look and want to change them into something they like better.

And generally I think the people in the latter category should be playing an army they like better instead of changing the existing lore.

Frankly, you repeating the false dilemma 'keep SoB exactly as they are or change absolutely everything about them' is getting tiring now. You and Manchu had a field day painting that fallacy all over the walls earlier. I really must insist that there is a non-negligible middle ground.